Latest / Decision Desk HQ Podcast / Behind the scenes of the 2020 election and the life of a television journalist

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Behind the scenes of the 2020 election and the life of a television journalist · Decision Desk HQ Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_03: Hey there, it is Chris Cillizza.
• 0:02
  I am with two friends,
• 0:03
  Geoffrey Skelley of DDHQ and Leland Vittert,
• 0:07
  anchor of News Nation.
• 0:10
  And more importantly,
• 0:11
  at least for this conversation,
• 0:13
  you've got the book behind you,
• 0:14
  Leland.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: I've got the book right here,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: Born Lucky,
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_03: A Dedicated Father,
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_03: A Grateful Son,
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_03: and My Journey with Autism.
• 0:21
  They always told me when I was trying to sell books,
• 0:23
  show the book as much as humanly possible.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: I am I am showing the book as much as possible.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: Let's let's get right into it.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_03: And Geoffrey's going to ask you some questions, too.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_03: I want to start we're going to talk about the book,
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_03: but in the book functions as kind of a memoir in some ways for you.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: And, you know, Geoffrey and I are political guys.
• 0:44
  So we wanted to jump off with your recounting of not just the 2020 election,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_03: but I want to you write about this on November 28th.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: 14th, 2020, one week after Fox made its call.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: You were at Fox News at the time.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_03: This is its call that Biden won.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_03: I find myself in an intensive,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_03: combative interview with Erin Perrine,
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_03: a Trump campaign spokesperson.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Now,
• 1:08
  anyone who's followed this knows that whole thing went hugely viral and
• 1:12
  impacted
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_03: your career in ways you probably couldn't have foreseen.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_03: Walk us through that,
• 1:16
  and then we're going to go back and talk about how you got to where you are.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: The irony,
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: in just how small Washington is,
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 1:25
  is that Erin Perrine is now often a guest on News Nation here in the Green Room,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: But, look, I was doing my job.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: This was one of the Stop the Steal rallies of Trump, and it was—
• 1:43
  Trump's spokesperson claiming that there was fraud and there was this and
• 1:47
  therewas
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: that and all this stuff.
• 1:48
  And I was just asking normal journalistic questions,
• 1:51
  which is what sort of my job is,
• 1:52
  right?
• 1:53
  And after that,
• 1:55
  I was told by a Fox News executive,
• 1:57
  and the interview was combative,
• 2:00
  right?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because she was spewing all this complete...
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Garbage.
• 2:03
  And you write about,
• 2:03
  you write in the book,
• 2:05
  like you were saying,
• 2:06
  just show me.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: Just show me the numbers.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: Show me the numbers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: Show me the evidence.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: No, there is no evidence.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: The judges have overturned everything.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Show me how you're going to get to 270.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the Trump people didn't have anything, right?
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's why they were...
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: sort of just spinning and yelling, which is fine.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's what politicians do when journalists ask tough questions.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way it's supposed to work.
• 2:27
  AndIgetofftheairandIgetaveryangryphonecallfromaFoxexecutivethat
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: says,
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: you need to respect the audience.
• 2:32
  Now,
• 2:32
  what we didn't know at the time and we now have is the emails right from,
• 2:36
  Lachlan Murdoch to Suzanne Scott and Jay Wallace saying Leland Vittert's
• 2:39
  doneand
• 2:41
  theandbythewayforpeoplewhodon'tknowobviouslyyouprobablyknowwho
• 2:44
  Lachlan Murdoch is he's now going to be the boss but the other two people
• 2:48
  Leland
• 2:48
  named are extremely high level executives at Fox News the two leaders of Fox
• 2:53
  News
• 2:53
  yesandtalkingabouthowcrazythatwasandhowawfulIwasandonandonandon
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: fine but
• 3:01
  I was basically told after that,
• 3:04
  not long after that,
• 3:05
  you won't anchor at Fox News again.
• 3:07
  And I was also told as punishment,
• 3:10
  you're going to have to work weekend mornings as a reporter.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: So to go from being an anchor to that is like,
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: just being completely kicked in an area between the legs.
• 3:18
  It's like going back,
• 3:19
  you're in the majors and you go back,
• 3:21
  get sent to single A for baseball.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: you're in the major leagues,
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: and now all of a sudden it's like,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: why don't you go down to single A ball and hang out?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: So that's fine.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was their right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think the funniest part of it,
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: and Cillizza knows this and Geoffrey knows this from being in my office,
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 3:37
  is we also have the text message from Tucker Carlson where he said to Sean
• 3:41
  Hannity
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: and Laura Ingraham,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: we go and build Fox News and Leland effing Vittert goes and destroys it.
• 3:49
  And now I have the nameplate on my desk at News Nation,
• 3:54
  Leland effing Vittert,
• 3:56
  Tucker Carlson.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So take from that what you will.
• 4:00
  But look,
• 4:01
  I think in the book,
• 4:03
  you get a really raw look at what cable news is like.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so much of growing up in middle school and everything else was great.
• 4:11
  aviperpitformeandwashellandthosestoriesareinthebooktoobutboy
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: middle school was great training for Fox News Geoffrey go ahead
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 4:23
  I guess in terms of your experiences in sort of that entire 2020 election
• 4:27
  cycle,
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: it seems like,
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:31
  you found yourself in the middle of probably the sort of aspects of the two
• 4:35
  biggest
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: things.
• 4:38
  You encountered sort of protesters after the George Floyd murder in
• 4:43
  Washington,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: D.C.,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: and you encountered...
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know, a combative Trump staffer in an interview.
• 4:51
  AndIguessIjustthoughtifyousortofhadthoughtsonthiscurrentsortof
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: political moment,
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: because we're obviously still in it,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know?
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: Look,
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: and I often say that the thing I'm proudest about in my journalism,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: is I've had Trump trash me on Twitter.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've had Trump
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_00: praise me on Twitter.
• 5:14
  I'vehadtheWhiteHousesendoutstoriesI'vedoneasproofthatthingsare
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: working and they've blown up and go viral.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've had the White House quote me about Trump's foreign policy.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: I've had Antifa target me and beat me up.
• 5:29
  If you want to be judged as a journalist just by being attacked by all sides,
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: if that's proof of you being in the middle,
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_00: then that's where I am.
• 5:38
  andyeahyou'rerightyouknowoutsidethewhitehouseduringtheBLMandthey
• 5:42
  found out i worked for Fox and they surrounded me and attacked me and got a
• 5:45
  pretty
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: good thumping fine um
• 5:49
  I think the climate we're in is that politics in America is a full contact
• 5:55
  sport,
• 5:55
  right?
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And cable news is a full contact sport.
• 5:59
  And anybody who tells you otherwise just is being Pollyanna and silly about
• 6:04
  it.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: You guys know this well.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this whole idea, oh, we're going to turn down the temperature.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Nobody's going to turn down the temperature.
• 6:10
  And that's because the economic incentives right now in the media are to turn
• 6:16
  up
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: the temperature and to divide people because that's how you get clicks.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you get viewers.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's how you get fundraising as a politician.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: So to me,
• 6:22
  the one thing I've always thought about being a journalist is I always love
• 6:24
  whatAl
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: Michaels said.
• 6:27
  When everybody says he roots for one side or roots for the other side in a
• 6:30
  football
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: game,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: we can tell you're really calling it because you love the Steelers.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: He says, I don't root for anybody.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: I call the game, I root for drama because drama means ratings.
• 6:37
  Now,
• 6:38
  unfortunately now,
• 6:39
  drama in politics doesn't mean a debate over government shutdown.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: It means people getting shot.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't root for drama anymore.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: That part has changed.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I can't use the Al Michaels story anymore.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: But...
• 6:52
  I am at the point where I just kind of view myself as the guy calling the game,
• 6:57
  right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: you've got Fox News who calls,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: if it's the Yankees,
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Red Sox,
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Fox News calls it like,
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: a New York radio station.
• 7:07
  And MSNBC calls it like a Boston radio station,
• 7:10
  as does CNN,
• 7:12
  different versions of Boston radio.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm the national broadcast.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And therefore, I don't really take it personally.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't have the people who go, oh, are you?
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, I don't have a side, so I don't really care.
• 7:26
  The lesson I learned too late in my life in this business is don't take it
• 7:30
  personally.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_03: I want to talk about the bulk of the book,
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: just to be clear,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: and this is what I want the bulk of the conversation to be about.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: The bulk of the book is not about politics in any meaningful way.
• 7:40
  I mean,
• 7:40
  it's about Leland's experience,
• 7:42
  and Geoffrey and I are political guys,
• 7:43
  so I'm fascinated.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_03: The stuff in there about politics and Leland's experience,
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_03: which we just spent some time talking about,
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_03: is fascinating.
• 7:50
  But the bulk of the book,
• 7:52
  and again,
• 7:52
  they always say show the book as much as possible.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: Born Lucky, a dedicated father, a grateful son in my journey with autism.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this, I knew Leland.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: before I knew anything about his background to be totally candid.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_03: So Leland, I want to, I want to talk about that.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Look, I was, I think I've written about this.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: Know this.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_03: I was bullied as a kid and it was incredibly difficult and challenging.
• 8:17
  And,
• 8:17
  you know,
• 8:18
  I look back and I'm like,
• 8:19
  wow,
• 8:19
  okay,
• 8:19
  I'm glad I made it through.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_03: But I will say reading the first, you know,
• 8:24
  100 ish pages of this book you mentioned it a little bit about middle school
• 8:28
  but
• 8:29
  jeezimeanyourearlyyearswerenoteasywhatwalkussortofthroughthatand
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_03: then we'll talk about your dad too
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, look, seventh grade, I showed up to a new school.
• 8:42
  In fifth grade,
• 8:43
  my parents had to pull me out because the bullying had gotten so bad.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: One of the stories in the book in Born Lucky is that I'm in fifth grade.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm getting bullied horribly.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: My dad goes over to the school,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: goes up to the PE grounds where he hears that I am,
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: and runs into the PE teacher,
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: who's a guy he knew from another school's football program.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: My dad had been a gifted athlete saying it was a small town.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, hey, how's Lucky doing?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_03: And by the way, Lucky is Leland's childhood nickname.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_03: Sorry.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_03: I should have explained that.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: So they said, how's Lucky doing?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the coach goes, I think he's doing better this week.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: My dad goes, great.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go see him.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: And the football coach goes, I don't think that's a good idea.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: My dad goes, why not?
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And the guy goes,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 9:26
  I've had to put him with the girls this week because he was just getting beaten
• 9:29
  up
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: so bad with the boys.
• 9:31
  So my dad's looking down and now realizes I'm down on the field with all the
• 9:34
  girls.
• 9:36
  You know what that would do to a father,
• 9:37
  and he turns around and walks away.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Later, I leave that school.
• 9:41
  Seventh grade,
• 9:43
  start in school,
• 9:44
  and two weeks in,
• 9:46
  the principal calls my parents in.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Every parent's been in a principal's office, right?
• 9:50
  And they thought it was like a check-in,
• 9:52
  like,
• 9:53
  hey,
• 9:53
  you know,
• 9:53
  two weeks in.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And the woman starts off and says,
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: everybody at this school thinks Lucky Leland is really weird.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: And frankly, I do too.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Which meant anything that happened to me was my fault, right?
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: That the parents, you know, that the school had decided.
• 10:08
  AndItellthestoriesaboutwhatthefacultywasdoingbecausewhateverthe
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: students were doing wasn't nearly as bad as what the faculty was doing.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: The faculty were adults.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: Adults were not being adults.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: They were not serving their adult role.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: Eighth grade art class.
• 10:21
  Yeah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Eighth grade art class, none of us were going to be Picasso, right?
• 10:24
  But we're sitting there and there's drawings all around us and everything
• 10:26
  else.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: And this eighth grade art teacher looks at me and goes,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Vittert,
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: if I was as ugly as you,
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: I guess he didn't like my painting or something.
• 10:35
  If my dog was as ugly as you,
• 10:36
  I'd shave its ass and make it walk backwards.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: For the whole class.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the kind of thing that went on in eighth grade.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: My dad,
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 10:45
  he had quit his job to be my friend because he realized I didn't have any
• 10:48
  friends.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I got home every day and he would sort of spend the day,
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: the night,
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: putting me back together from the day of being bullied and broken.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I now know this is pretty remarkable that,
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:01
  he would spend a couple hours in my room every night with me crying and upset
• 11:05
  and
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_00: angry and all these things.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then he would leave me to do my homework or go to bed, whatever.
• 11:10
  And he would walk downstairs and he would sit by himself in the living room and
• 11:14
  cry himself.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_03: It's brutal.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, as a parent, it's brutal.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_00: I can't even imagine it.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: I come out and find him at two o'clock in the morning crying.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: but,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: and this is the different part of the book is that the next morning,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: every morning I'd go back to school.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And the idea is right,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: that you don't pave the way for your kid,
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: you hold their hand through the adversity.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: So Leland, one more and I'll turn it over to Geoffrey.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_03: At what point,
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_03: first of all,
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_03: you're younger than me,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_03: but not so young that,
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_03: autism feels as though we're still trying to understand it.
• 11:51
  And certainly when you were a kid,
• 11:52
  we were in its infancy in terms of understanding it.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_03: At what point did you get...
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_03: Well, two questions.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_03: At what point did you realize yourself or your parents,
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_03: but I'm more interested in you,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_03: something's different with me.
• 12:08
  And then number two,
• 12:10
  at what point did you get diagnosed and did that change anything?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: All good questions.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: So for...
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: As long as I can remember, I knew I was different, right?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I could see kids playing and having fun and I knew I wasn't, right?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we have the report cards in Born Lucky of like needs improvement,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: social skills,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: needs improvement,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: interact with others,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: needs improvement,
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: like all the way down.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I always knew I was different.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't know how to fix it.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I always knew I was isolated.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I always knew all of that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Some people sort of attract friends like a magnet.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_00: I repelled them like a magnet, kind of like the opposite thing.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: When I was like five or six, I had to be evaluated.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: So got taken to some psychology testing center and,
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 12:59
  parents sit out in the little waiting room with the old magazines and the
• 13:02
  stale
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: coffee.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And my parents leave me to go in with the person.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: The person brings me back out and they sit my parents down and they say,
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: it is very difficult to understand what's going on inside his head.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: At the time autism was basically,
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: you're either profoundly autistic,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: what we now know is somebody who like,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: you look at them and you go,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: they have autism.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: This is the- 80s.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: I was gonna say 80s, yeah.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so this is the 80s.
• 13:28
  Or they didn't really know what you were and they just sort of said,
• 13:31
  meet the kid where he's at.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna give him more time on tests.
• 13:34
  We'regonnasortofputhiminapaddedroomandbubblewraparoundhimandit's
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: gonna be fine and he's gonna be who he is.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was not acceptable to my dad.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: But at the same time,
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: he never wanted me to be defined by a diagnosis,
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: and he also didn't want me to use it as a crutch.
• 13:49
  So the diagnosis at the time was pervasive developmental disorder mixed
• 13:55
  withwhat
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: they called social blindness,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: mixed with a severe learning disability.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: So on the IQ tests that one takes, there's two halves.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: A 20-point spread between the two scores is...
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: a learning disability, I had a 70-point spread.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: So from basically genius to mentally retarded.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they got all those diagnoses, and my dad said, I'm telling nobody.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then I went through life.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_03: Geoffrey, go ahead.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I guess I wondered if you could speak a little bit to...
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: your relationship with your father.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I say this as a new dad.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: Congratulations.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was more just thinking about like,
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: you're when you're in that position as a parent,
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:50
  it'sobviousjusthowbigadealyoucanbeandhowmuchofaguideandhelpyou
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: can be or you can not be.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 14:58
  And so and I,
• 14:59
  you know,
• 14:59
  your example really shines through of how impactful a father can be.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't know if I'd love for you to speak to that a little bit.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 15:07
  More importantly,
• 15:08
  I should be asking you,
• 15:09
  right,
• 15:09
  as a new dad,
• 15:10
  what did you get from the book?
• 15:13
  But I've learned in these interviews not to put somebody on the spot about did
• 15:16
  they
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_03: read the book or not.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me what's on page 216.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_03: Tell me right now.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're going to do one of those reading quizzes from high school.
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what color shirt did I have on on my first time on TV?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: White.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: This book is not a – it's always a safe bet.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: It is always getting parenting advice for a parent, right?
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is a parenting book written by a kid.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a parent.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to give people advice.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what you took from it,
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: is just the words of George Will,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: who wrote the foreword,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: the mountain-moving power of parental love.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: I love that phrase.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: Leave it to George Will to come up with it.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I write this book, 240 pages.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I give it to George Will to write the foreword.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: I give it to my dad to write the afterword.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: And those are the two best parts.
• 16:14
  the whole thing i think you're a little harsher yourself there but well it is
• 16:18
  um
• 16:19
  and the great news is in all the interviews i don't talk about either the
• 16:22
  forward
• 16:22
  or the afterwards so you gotta buy exactly stay tuned yes um if you want to and
• 16:28
  the
• 16:28
  other one i keep i keep holding back is if you know everyone says well do i want
• 16:31
  to
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: have kids that one you got to buy the book for all yeah man question
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Jeffrey,
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: that's really the lesson,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: of what an enormous difference a parent makes.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my dad said,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: and I'll give readers just a little bit of insight,
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: he said in the afterward,
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: I had no expectations of me.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's not quite true because there were two expectations that...
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Anybody can control, right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: So there were no expectations about how I would do in school.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Would I have friends?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Would I do well in school?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: Would I be a great athlete?
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: I was not.
• 17:10
  Would I work hard and would I be a good person,
• 17:14
  which anybody can control?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: And those were the expectations.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, more than expectations, those are the demands.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:21
  in the book is this story about the first time my dad finds out that I'm lying,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: he makes me write,
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: I will tell the truth a thousand times.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: He still has the piece of paper.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: I will, you know, and what's that come from?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: That comes from his dad.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: We have the letter that when my dad's dad died at 16,
• 17:38
  he went down to the family office and opened the safe in the family office.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: And there was a letter to him.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: We have the letter, right?
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And he can recite that letter like it was yesterday.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_00: In it, a man is defined by his character.
• 17:53
  So I'm not giving you advice,
• 17:55
  but I can tell you what was the tenets of how I was raised.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_03: Leland,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_03: one of the things I was struck by,
• 18:05
  you said it in an answer previously about quoting your dad after you got
• 18:11
  diagnosed.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: I'm telling nobody, and then I went through life.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_03: I feel like that,
• 18:17
  and obviously I'm not going to speak for anyone whose kid has been diagnosed
• 18:21
  with
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_03: anything,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: autism,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_03: ADHD,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_03: whatever.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel like,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_03: you correct me if I'm wrong,
• 18:27
  I feel like that's a little bit counter the sort of conventional approach
• 18:31
  nowadays.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_03: Now, again, we're talking about the, you know, the 80s.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: But tell me,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: as a kid,
• 18:38
  I'm sure you were probably unaware that your dad sort of made that decision.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_03: But tell me how that decision impacts your...
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_03: your life in retrospect.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Again, this is about my story, right?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is, this is about me.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's for other people, but I don't pretend to be offering advice.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: The difference was, I think it meant that there was never an excuse.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:03
  And in that,
• 19:04
  and you hear somebody,
• 19:05
  you know,
• 19:05
  so often now,
• 19:06
  Oh,
• 19:06
  well I have ADHD.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, well I have this to excuse really bad behavior or bad behavior.
• 19:12
  Or just not doing things and not having good character or not having a work
• 19:16
  ethic
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: or any of these kinds of things.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that was the one thing.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: There's no excuses.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: And look, autism is not something you're cured of, right?
• 19:24
  And so when I was in my 20s,
• 19:26
  my parents told me that,
• 19:28
  hey,
• 19:29
  you were diagnosed as autistic.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_03: But you never knew before then, just to make clear.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And my mom, I mean, my parents never told my sister, right?
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 19:37
  my sister would walk me home from school and I would be sobbing or I would walk
• 19:42
  her
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: home since my younger sister.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: They never told her like, hey, your brother's a little different.
• 19:46
  It was always your brother's your brother and you love him and you protect
• 19:49
  him.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the...
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: But mostly I will always be autistic.
• 19:55
  I'll always work on the social skills and the interaction and the empathy and
• 20:00
  the
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: understanding of the human equation that is a learned skill for me.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll give you an example, Chris, of what you were saying.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: About three weeks ago, I was at my father-in-law's golf club.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we had played golf with this nice older man, finished 18 holes.
• 20:16
  And I'm now in the parking lot trying to stuff my golf bag into my travel bag.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: We're late.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really focused.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: And a hallmark of autism is that you get really focused on one task,
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: sort of hyper-focused and blind to the rest of the world.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then this older gentleman came over to talk to me.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: He was being lovely.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I just stayed focused on packing the bag.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_00: And he's talking to me.
• 20:43
  And even in the moment,
• 20:44
  I'm thinking to myself,
• 20:46
  like,
• 20:46
  you should really stop packing the bag.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: But it was like I couldn't.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 20:52
  unquestionably and afterwards he just walked away because clearly i had
• 20:59
  beenreally
• 20:59
  rudeandijustfelthorribleafterwardslikebygodyouknowyouknowbetter
• 21:04
  you've trained yourself better you've you've worked so hard to be better and
• 21:08
  this
• 21:08
  was just like right back to when you're eight years old and i wrote him a long
• 21:15
  note
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: saying i'm just so sorry i was so rude to you
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Never once did I say, and by the way, I have autism, that was my autism.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Because it doesn't matter.
• 21:24
  And I don't know if that answers your question,
• 21:26
  but that's kind of how I look at it.
• 21:28
  It struck me in reading the book that it is your dad's approach is not what I
• 21:35
  would
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_03: say is the typical approach these days.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_03: I just wanted to highlight that.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: Geoffrey, go ahead.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_03: And then I want to ask you,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: Leland,
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_03: before we go,
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_03: and I know we're tight on time,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_03: I want to ask you about sort of the debate on autism going on now.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_03: But Geoffrey, go ahead.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: one other thing I wanted to ask you about,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: and it sort of gets back to your career as a journalist,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: as someone in broadcast journalism.
• 21:56
  Andthatissortofhowdoyoufeelthisstoryforyouimpactedyourcareerin
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: terms of like how you approached making your way through it?
• 22:08
  I know you had lots of stories about sort of interning or doing things in St.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Louis at smaller operations.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I interned in St.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: Louis and people put up signs that interns should be seen, not heard.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: look,
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: as I said,
• 22:21
  being bullied and having a hard time in middle school is an awful good
• 22:25
  trainingfor
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: Washington,
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_00: D.C.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: But the joke works better the first time.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:35
  I think,
• 22:35
  to answer your question,
• 22:36
  I've never known a different way,
• 22:39
  right?
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I've always been me.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how would I be different if I... I don't know.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe that answers the question for you.
• 22:53
  I think the one thing that was,
• 22:54
  you know,
• 22:55
  consistent,
• 22:55
  right,
• 22:55
  through the book...
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: Write the story in Born Lucky about my dad at a very young age.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not good at school.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to have friends.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be good at athletics.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: How do you give a kid at five or six or seven years old self-esteem?
• 23:07
  I did 200 push-ups a day because it was something I could accomplish and then
• 23:11
  be
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: proud of and then be rewarded for.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was something nobody else did and I could be good at something.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that lesson of hard work is...
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: In journalism,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: especially when you're a street reporter,
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is what I came up as,
• 23:29
  hardworkknocksdownabout95%ofthebarriersjustbecauseifyououtwork
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: everybody in the newsroom,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: it makes up for an awful lot.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that lesson, I think, was a through line in the book.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: I mean,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_03: I will say as a parent of a 16-year-old and a 13-year-old boy,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_03: I always say control what you can control.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: You can control how hard you work.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_03: I want to end here.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for taking as much time as you have.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I will say again, born lucky right here.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_03: Here it is.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_03: I got the early copy.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's the same thing here.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was lucky enough too.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Those who order on Amazon, it's out.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Those who order on Amazon will get the real copy with a hardcover.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_03: Like, yeah, this is softcover, but you get the hardcover version.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: In a feat that even your public relations people could not bring up,
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_03: we are now,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: right now,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_03: as the book is coming out,
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_03: in the midst of a national conversation about autism.
• 24:28
  Donald Trump holds a press conference with Robert F.
• 24:31
  Kennedy Jr.,
• 24:32
  the secretary of HHS.
• 24:34
  He says lots of things,
• 24:36
  you know,
• 24:37
  about vaccines,
• 24:38
  about Tylenol,
• 24:40
  about folic acid.
• 24:43
  You obviously have a perspective on this that is different than most people.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_03: What's your takeaway?
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_03: Like what's your 50,000 foot takeaway?
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_03: Cause you know,
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: we can go through the whole,
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_03: like there's some causal it's,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: it's,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: you know,
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_03: is it,
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: is it causal?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_03: Is it not?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Are you a doctor?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_00: So all these TV shows have some random doctor on there,
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: espousing whatever about,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at this study,
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: if you look at that,
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: talk to your doctor.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you have a doctor.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: Look,
• 25:20
  there are people who would take away from the press conference of Donald
• 25:23
  Trump
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: about autism.
• 25:24
  Hey,
• 25:25
  if no pregnant woman takes Tylenol,
• 25:27
  we'll never have another autistic kid.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: But the flip side of that is we went back and looked.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know how many press conferences Joe Biden had about autism?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I would assume zero.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Zero.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Zero.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: This is the...
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: public health scientific question of our time.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: In 40 years, you don't die from AIDS anymore.
• 25:51
  We've basically figured out how most cancers are treatable so that you don't
• 25:55
  die.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Some are curable.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: Huge, huge advances in diabetes.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: We can create bionic people with artificial limbs,
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: artificial hearts,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: all this other kind of stuff.
• 26:06
  Andwereallydon'tknowmuchmoreaboutwhywe'vegonefrom1in1,000to1in31
• 26:10
  kidstothreetimesthatnumberofboystobeingworseandpoorinminority
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: communities having autism.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 26:17
  And finally,
• 26:18
  there is a president now who says,
• 26:19
  we're going to figure this out.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And by the way,
• 26:22
  finally now they are willing to ask the questions and do the science without
• 26:28
  the
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: predisposed fears of,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: oh my God,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: what if we offend the autism community?
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, what if we offend the vax community?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my God, what if we offend the anti-vax community?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like science is the pursuit of truth.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: You have to be willing to pursue all truths in order to find it.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: The fact that we're doing that, hallelujah.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I agree.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: It's like,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_03: I think we sometimes get so caught up in the minutia of what Trump says,
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: and it's like,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: okay,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: well,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_03: broadly,
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_03: we're having a conversation about autism,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: and its origins,
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_03: and what can we find,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: and that's a good thing.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_03: Leland Vittert, you know him from News Nation, 9 p.m.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_03: every night, Eastern Time, that is.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_03: Geoffrey Skelley, you know him from DDHQ, terrific.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: Geoff and I, we've talked many times about how good what he does is.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_03: This is the book.
• 27:12
  Born Lucky,
• 27:13
  a dedicated father,
• 27:14
  a grateful son,
• 27:15
  and my journey with autism.
• 27:17
  We started on politics,
• 27:18
  but we spent most of the time talking about Leland's life.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_03: I will tell you, I liked Leland before the book.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_03: But I feel like I know Leland after the book,
• 27:28
  becausewhatyouseeinfrontofyourightnowisnotwhoLelandwaswhenhewas
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: eight years old.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_03: And that's true.
• 27:34
  Ithinkit'sareallygoodreminderthatwhatweareatthestartisnotwherewe
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: are in the middle or where we are at the end.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a good lesson.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_03: Anyway, available now.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: Go buy it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Love it.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, my friend.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_03: Take care.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: You got it.