Latest / Podcasts By Donna Jodhan / Remarkable World Commentary Episode #75: Interview with Richard Marion, Accessibility Professional

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Remarkable World Commentary Episode #75: Interview with Richard Marion, Accessibility Professional · Podcasts By Donna Jodhan

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1:22
Podcast Commentator: Donna J. Jodhan, LLB, ACSP and MBA, invites you to listen to her
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biweekly podcast, Remarkable World Commentary.
1:33
Here, Donna shares some of her innermost thoughts,
1:36
insights, perspectives, and more with her listeners.
1:40
Donna focuses on topics that directly affect the future of kids,
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especially kids with disabilities.
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Donna is a blind advocate, author, sight loss coach,
1:51
dinner mystery producer, writer, entrepreneur,
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law graduate, and podcast commentator.
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She has decades of lived experiences, knowledge,
2:02
skills and expertise in access technology and information.
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As someone who has been internationally recognized for her work and roles,
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she just wants to make things better than possible.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Remarkable World Commentary.
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I'm Donna Jodhan, a lifelong disability advocate and one who sees the world mainly
2:30
through sound, touch and stubborn optimism.
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I am a law graduate, accessibility consultant,
2:38
author, lifelong barrier buster who also happens to be blind.
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You may know me from a few headline moments, as in November 2010,
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I won the Landmark Charter case that forced the Canadian government to make its websites
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accessible to every Canadian, not just recited once.
3:02
And in July of 2019, I co-led the Accessible Canada Act with more than two dozen
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disability groups to Turin, equal access into federal law,
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and most recently on June 3rd, 2022.
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I was greatly humbled by Her Late Majesty's Platinum Jubilee Award for tireless
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commitment to removing barriers.
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When I'm not in a courtroom or a committee room or in a pottery studio,
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you will find me coaching kids with vision loss,
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producing audio mysteries, or helping tech companies to make their
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gadgets talk back in plain language.
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Everything I do circles one goal to turn accessibility from an afterthought into
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everyday practice. I invite you to think of this show as our shared workbench where
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policy meets lived experience and lived experience sparks fresh ideas.
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Now, before we jump into today's conversation,
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let me shine a spotlight on today's guests.
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A changemaker whose work is as every bit as remarkable as the world that we are trying to
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build. Richard Marion, aka Rich.
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It is my pleasure and my privilege to welcome you to my podcast.
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Welcome.
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Richard Marion: Thank you Donna, it's great to be here.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I just want to let listeners know that Richard has played an enormous part in my
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advocacy life, from when I met him in 2010 and to now.
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Richard continues to be my mentor, my advisor,
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my very good friend, and I want to thank you,
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Richard, for having personally guided me through a lot of lumps and bumps.
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But now we want to hear about you.
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So, Richard, for listeners meeting you for the first time,
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how do you usually describe who you are and the work that you do,
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especially at the intersection of transit technology and disability advocacy?
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Richard Marion: I think it depends on the audience.
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So like I generally, I generally say I've been a long time advocate for in the
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disability community. I work on a number of issues.
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And and that I have been done, done a lot of work behind the scenes on many,
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many different projects.
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Some would say I've probably been the the Jack or Jane of all trades and master of
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none, but because I've done a lot of different things over the years.
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But more recently I've, I've worked on like the,
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the intersection of, as you mentioned, transit and technology and and and getting
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around. So I've been and, and and so I've mainly been focusing on
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public transit accessibility and my role in, in advisory role and a staffing role for the
6:28
for three, over three years at TransLink over the last six years and and then also on
6:36
technology, making websites more accessible and helping people learn more doing a lot of
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peer tutoring, helping people learn more about their their access technology,
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specifically mobile devices these days, it seems.
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And and so I would say that I've my, my work in the community has been has been
6:57
multifaceted and and that that I it it it it has resulted in in my contribution to a
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number of achievements in the community, like my contribution might be,
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might not be large on its own, but it's contributed to the overall sort of
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increase in accessibility.
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Things have definitely changed over the 35 year or 40 years that I've been involved in
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advocacy.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: 40 years. That's a very long time.
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Richard Marion: 35, actually. Yeah. 35 ish.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh my goodness. Now, as a metis person and a member of the I have to
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pronounce this properly here, the l b g forgive me here.
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Richard Marion: To LGBTQ.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Plus community. Oh my goodness, it.
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Richard Marion: Doesn't it doesn't roll off the tongue that easily,
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so like. Yeah. Anyways, finish your question.
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Sorry about. That.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's okay. How have your identities informed your approach to accessibility,
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inclusion and community leadership?
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Richard Marion: So my identity identifying as Metis and and being part of the LGBTQ plus community has
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been more recent in my life.
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I, I actually only came out it's going to be.
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17 years ago this year.
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So it's it's really, really less the than half of my life.
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Really. And then my Métis identification.
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I only was granted citizenship in 2019.
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So but it's been it's been part of my life, obviously,
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since I was very young, like I remember doing things with my
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grandparents and when I was 9 or 10 years old,
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not thinking anything about the significance of it until I started going through family
9:04
history and registering as a citizen of British Columbia.
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So I guess the short answer to your question is that it's what it's done is I've been I've
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been able to sort of bring disability issues forward into indigenous communities and
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specifically the Métis community.
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And and then also because my primary I still say my primary ID is a person with disability
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and specifically someone that's blind as well,
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too. And and then it's it's allowed me to Learn more about the culture of being Métis
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and then also how that impacts the people that are part of the LGBTQIA+ community.
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So I've done some of that other work.
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Equity work more about doing the equity work itself,
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like improving the the standing of the of the of the LGBTQ plus community within the Métis
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Nation of British Columbia and then also representing in indigenous people on
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accessibility communities committees, specifically the Richmond Accessibility
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Committee. So but generally with especially in urban environments,
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accessibility issues are pretty are pretty much the same.
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And we I tend to mainly draw on what the indigenous communities would call colonial
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colonial solutions and still have to learn more about what would what would be more
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appropriate in in indigenous communities.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You are very much multifaceted and a multitasker.
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And I have, you know, it's very, very impressive.
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Richard, I, I didn't even know that you were a T or part Metis until 2019.
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You hid that from me. All right.
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So you've worked with TransLink in multiple contract periods over several years.
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What keeps pulling you back to transit accessibility work and what kind of progress
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have you seen over time?
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Richard Marion: I think the thing that pulls me back and not just not not just as a staff member,
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but as an advisory committee member, I've been on the TransLink Access Transit
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Committee off off and on since it started in 2008.
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But I think what pulls me back to it is, is the is is making it easier and more
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comfortable for people disabilities to utilize the public transit system.
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And a more accessible, inclusive public transit system just makes a
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better community overall as well.
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So improving accessibility on buses, not just for people using mobility devices,
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but also making it more schedules easier to understand,
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providing better wayfinding information along the way,
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providing accessible sign accessible destination information for people who are
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blind. That's going to make it better for everybody.
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And I think you improve the public transit system.
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You just increase the opportunities for people with disabilities in the community.
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Like it makes the big difference from having accessible transit makes a big difference
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from someone saying potentially, especially in a large city between getting a
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job and not or and not being able to take it because they can't get there.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Very true.
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Richard Marion: Yeah.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Can you walk me through the braille and tactile bus stop signage initiative.
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What the goal was, what your role was as a technical advisor and what?
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That kind of system wide change materials to blind writers.
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Writers. I'm sorry.
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Richard Marion: I think it's huge. So the to summarize, the the bus stop accessibility project was so
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we transit was the first transit agency in North America to do a system wide rollout of,
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of accessible signage for, for people that are blind or partially
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sighted. And it the signage involves Braille and large tactile raised print as well too.
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So it's it's huge. And so what it does do is it gives people options for looking at least
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knowing what buses stop at a stop, or that they are located at a bus stop as
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well without using technology as well to just it just provides the same getting closer to
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pride in the same range of options as the sighted public has for when they're out on
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the street. So the work that I did on it was when when we were at the early implementation
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stages, working with the signage contractor and the project manager to make sure that we
14:02
were formatting the braille correctly and using the right configuration,
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or for size of dots on the signage as well.
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So it was because the the, the, the terms of the project indicated that
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we had to do the signage in unified English Braille.
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And so I just made I worked with the signage contractors to make sure that they were
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following the conventions of UEB.
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I consulted with other experts in the field that,
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frankly, a lot of ways know more about UEB than I do.
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But but I was the on site person that actually looked at signs,
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samples and said, yeah, this will work. And no,
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this won't work. And and, and then we and then ultimately landed on
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something that we rolled out over in, out in the city.
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We did have to partway through when we started doing the implementation because we
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had we didn't realize when we changed the sign,
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the the actual material that the signs were being printed on that the,
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the style of Braille dots changed slightly in the manufacturing process.
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And, and it really wasn't until a field review, until other people that were looking
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at the signs there saying, well, the Braille is a little harder to read.
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So we had to do a bit of a pivot and space the dots further apart because the samples we
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looked at initially were, were, were had a more pointed dot.
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And for those that read Braille, they'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
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Like, yeah. And and and what was happening is when we changed the,
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the actual material, the braille dots became more rounded.
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So we the, the the the the standard for the closeness of dots for indoor signage that we
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were using on the outdoor signage didn't really work.
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And so we had to space a more further, a little further apart.
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So for those that are familiar with it, the spacing is a little more closer to what
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you see with Braille and print on paper now.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And I guess Braille has changed immensely like the format of Braille over the years,
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right?
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Richard Marion: Yeah. It has. Like when I first learned Braille,
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we were dealing with the Nemeth Code for mathematics and science notation and grade,
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and then and then North American Braille or US Braille,
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which is in grade one and two.
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Now it's just now it's just universal English Braille contracted uncontracted.
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And the mathematical braille code is all part of it as well,
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too. So it's it's totally different.
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The only the only part that's that's still not part of the actual literary code or the
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or the or the unified code is computer Braille is still its own thing.
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And Braille music notation is still its own thing as well too.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh thank goodness.
16:30
Richard Marion: Yeah.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: From your experience, what are the most common mistakes that
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transit organizations make when designing accessibility features and what should they
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be doing differently from day one?
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Richard Marion: I think from day one, they have to involve people with disabilities
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right from the beginning is close to the beginning as possible.
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Like, you know, because it's nothing about us without us.
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And and so the common mistake they make is they,
17:05
they they they and it's getting better, but they'll,
17:11
they'll, they'll kind of go through the exercise of checking the boxes, and then all
17:14
of a sudden they realize, oh, we forgot to consult with people with
17:16
disabilities all the time. Sometimes by the time they do it, they're already at the 80 to
17:21
90% designed like a design stage.
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And it's too late for a lot of a lot of the changes.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
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Richard Marion: Sometimes it's there are times when it's too early in the process,
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too, because because if you're way too early in the process,
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the information you might be receiving as an advocate is really meant for people that
17:41
really have the knowledge and technical skill to actually advise architects and engineers
17:47
in their language. And so in that case, you are then you're looking for a more
17:53
specific skill set of people with disabilities that actually have expertise in
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those areas. And they do exist, especially nowadays with,
18:00
with so much more focus on involving people with disabilities in,
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in public transit decisions.
18:07
It's getting it's getting better that we all that we,
18:09
that we can kind of speak their language more so than we used to.
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Then then the other most common mistake is they,
18:16
they're still I think it's and it's and again,
18:19
it's getting better is still assuming accessibility means accessibility for people
18:24
using wheelchairs and forgetting about other mobility devices or other disabilities,
18:30
people with people that have sensory disabilities,
18:33
like the the deaf community still has a still has a long way to go in a lot of cases as
18:38
well, too. They don't get the same level of information on a bus as,
18:43
say, I do, for example, because the they might have a visual side,
18:47
but they wouldn't know when an emergency is happening because there's no there's nothing
18:51
on that side to indicate why.
18:52
What's why the why this train has stopped, for example,
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or why the bus drivers stopped in the middle of the road?
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Because there's nothing to sort of system unless someone unless someone knows sign
19:05
language and they could tell them, tell a person. Look,
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we got to we got to go because the bus is being evacuated,
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for example. Yeah, it's a bit different in that sense.
19:16
And then people would people with for lack of a better term,
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hidden disabilities and people that have that are neurodivergent the transit agencies don't
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are just starting to grasp some of the accessibility challenges,
19:30
like, you know, sensory, sensory, reduced spaces in,
19:34
in transit stations and things like that.
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And and, and and they still transit agencies still have to do a lot,
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I think do a lot of staff training on, sensitivity and how to de-escalate situations
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because, you know, people that are neurodivergent sometimes what we might not,
19:54
might react, might have a minor reaction to they could have a major reaction.
19:58
And the staff have to have the skill to de-escalate something that could turn into a
20:01
major conflict point.
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Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: That's very true. Yeah.
20:07
I am also blind, so I have to ask, what are the real make or break features that
20:17
determines whether a transit system feels navigable and safe for someone who uses a
20:26
cane or a guide dog?
20:32
Richard Marion: So the, the things that for me, that would, would,
20:36
would be like obviously like the, the the other part of our accessible signage
20:41
product is tactile walking surface Indicators at the ground.
20:44
On the ground where the bus stop poles are.
20:47
So then you get you get a sense of, okay, I'm approaching a bus stop pole because
20:51
there's, there's there's tactile.
20:54
T.w. on the ground near the pole.
20:59
In transit stations, especially big transit stations directional tiles,
21:03
like like, like wayfinding tiles.
21:05
So you can follow a path, maybe from the entrance to stairs or an
21:10
elevator or to the faregates accessible accessible gates in the sense that
21:20
gates that clearly you can clearly tell where you need to tap a payment card,
21:24
because every transit system is going to a smart card and every every subway,
21:28
slash LRT or light metro system are going to faregate systems.
21:35
And so you need to know, okay, you need to have a good idea instead of
21:38
sort of waving your hands around where exactly you would tap your card.
21:41
So. And to know when the gates opened as well to staff to assist you like we like.
21:48
I don't know about any other transit system that does this very that extensively in
21:52
Canada. I know it does happen, but TransLink has you can call for VIP
21:57
assistance on the Skytrain.
21:59
And they'll assist you to, to to the, to a train at your departure
22:04
station and then from the train at your arrival station,
22:07
and you just have to give them ten minutes warning.
22:10
So like if, like when I've used it, I've, I've,
22:14
if I, if I'm going to a station I'm not familiar with, I just call them when I'm
22:16
getting on the train at the station I am familiar with. And then there's always
22:20
someone there to meet me.
22:21
And then and then they, they, they can offer whatever level of
22:25
assistance I'm looking for. And a lot of cases, I have a dog, so it's just someone to
22:29
follow through the station station out to the entrance and.
22:34
But. Yeah, that's and then just accessible, like accessible information,
22:41
like, in the sense of schedules and being able to sort of call in and get get trip
22:46
planning info as well too.
22:48
And as well. And then the other part, the elephant in the room is making sure that
22:56
and I'm sure, I'm sure listeners to your podcast will know exactly making sure that
23:01
bus that they're not using floating bus stops or what?
23:04
Or what they call island platform bus stops and and discouraging,
23:08
discouraging the installation of bus routes along separated bike lanes.
23:12
For example.
23:14
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: One of the floating bus stop.
23:16
Richard Marion: A floating bus stop is it's not it's it's not actually floating in the water.
23:22
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Yeah.
23:23
Richard Marion: There are sometimes in Vancouver, people might think they're floating in the
23:25
water when it's raining, but so what it is, is,
23:28
is, is is the the bus stop itself.
23:33
So the shelter and the bus pool are out in the street beside.
23:36
So you if you're walking down a pedestrian sidewalk,
23:39
you would come to a designated crossing point,
23:42
and you would actually cross a separated bike lane out into the street where onto another
23:48
island. So now they're changing the term.
23:51
They're starting to call them island platform bus stops, because that that's more
23:54
representative of what what it what it actually is,
23:57
I guess. And so and then you, you you the bus stop is out in this lane
24:03
between the bike lane and the traffic.
24:05
So a similar it's kind of similar to streetcar platforms in Toronto or,
24:09
or LRT platforms that are out in the middle of the street.
24:12
It's like that. But in those cases, the lane you're crossing a lot of times is an
24:16
actual traffic lane with vehicles which are which are easier to hear approaching,
24:23
whereas bikes aren't. So the, the bus stops beside floating beside bike
24:28
lanes has been a has been a major accessibility challenge for for people who
24:32
are blind because we can't hear the bikes approaching and we can't definitely can't see
24:36
them. And so if there's no if there's no safety measures to slow the bikes down,
24:41
or to make sure to ensure that we know that we're actually traversing the bike lane
24:47
before we get to the bus stop.
24:49
It can cause it could potentially cause some major issues for,
24:53
for people with disabilities or specifically in this case, people who are notification
24:56
for. Yeah.
24:59
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: You've also evaluated technology based wayfinding tools from your own perspective.
25:09
Where do smartphone based systems genuinely shine and where do they fall short
25:19
for real world independence?
25:22
Richard Marion: I think they generally shine like if you're using GPS mapping that like if you're using
25:27
Like what? Like what's the new Google Maps Explorer now?
25:33
Something. But if you're using like, like the equivalent to Google Maps or an
25:36
accessible version of any mapping thing for GPS wayfinding.
25:40
They're great. And where it the other wayfinding methods like using products that
25:46
where you have to point your camera at like at some sort of some sort of code out on a
25:54
pole, for example, or they still fall short there.
26:00
In my opinion. Because it, it does require you to have good knowledge of
26:05
your phone and you have to keep your phone out as well,
26:08
too. They work. I think those systems work best in indoor environments as well.
26:17
To when transit did a study of of a wayfinding product.
26:22
And I'm not sure if we're allowed to name names,
26:24
product names here, but it was well, they're they published a report,
26:28
so they, they did a we research project with Navy lens and the with in the outdoor
26:36
environments where they tried it, they there was a lot of a lot of issues,
26:40
like with the with with people's phone cameras not picking up the right sign to
26:45
guide them to it. And then also depending on the lighting conditions,
26:50
like if there was a lot of direct sunlight, the the phone cameras couldn't actually read
26:54
the actual lens code. So code.
26:56
So products like Navy Lens and good maps Explorer like things like that where they're,
27:02
where they're using the camera to find codes that sort of point you in the right
27:07
direction. They probably work best indoors.
27:10
And I think the, the transit systems that have done more experimenting,
27:14
experimenting with indoor environments have had better luck than than we did here when we
27:18
did the six month project here.
27:20
Here. So it I think that's where the that those types of technology are going to shine.
27:26
The other technical piece that's that really has been a game changer are the smart
27:31
glasses. Because now you can you can now you can put something on your head.
27:35
You don't have to carry your phone around. And you can ask.
27:38
Ask them for information.
27:40
And they're getting better.
27:42
There they are. They literally daily I think they're getting better at determining things
27:47
like if you ask it, what's in front of me?
27:50
If you're standing in front of a sign, they'll tell you what it is.
27:52
And a lot of times be able to read you what's on that sign as well,
27:56
too. It's it's as well.
27:57
So that's where that technology is going to, is going to help,
28:01
but it's technology. And so I still in my advocacy role still look,
28:07
think low tech solutions have to be part of the mix as well too,
28:10
because there's still a large population of people who are blind that that may not even
28:16
own the appropriate smartphones to to run all this stuff,
28:18
because it does require the almost the most modern phones to do it.
28:23
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is it difficult to learn how to use the meta glasses?
28:28
Richard Marion: No, not really, not from my opinion.
28:30
It was you it there's there's there's lots of information online.
28:35
There's some YouTube videos from from various accessibility experts on how to get started
28:41
with it as well. And even when you put them on,
28:43
it gives you a good idea of there's a, there's a,
28:47
there's a help guide. You can you can read and it gives you sort of it gives you
28:53
suggestions of what questions you can ask them and as well and,
28:56
and what answers you can expect as well.
29:00
In the accessibility settings in the meta glasses.
29:02
Now you can change, you can tell it that you're blind.
29:05
Tell them you're blind and you want and you want more detailed descriptions.
29:09
You can you can activate the the BMI service on them.
29:15
And so and so you can just say, basically say,
29:17
hey, meta, be my eyes.
29:18
And also you're connected with a live agent like IRA has a connection to meta as well
29:24
too, but it's a bit more complicated and does require a bit more skill because they their
29:30
connection has to be linked through WhatsApp and And.
29:35
So it it's a bit, for lack of a better term.
29:39
It seems to be the term I use.
29:41
It's a bit clunky because it does require a couple extra steps to do it,
29:45
and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
29:47
Like the last time I had to use that particular navigation aid when I was looking
29:52
for the passport office at, of all places I and I couldn't make the
29:57
connection with IRA, so I ended up basically doing the doing the call with my phone camera
30:02
and waving my phone in front of me while I was walking down the street looking for the
30:06
right building.
30:07
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Oh, gosh. Must have been a bit hairy for you
30:12
Richard Marion: Yes and no, but I've I've I've done, I've done the virtual assistants work that
30:18
way before. And so for those that don't know,
30:20
be my eyes and IRA are actually live people like there.
30:24
So there are people sitting in front of a computer or whatever actually viewing the
30:28
live feed from your phone's camera.
30:33
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Is starting to wind down. But I have this question for you.
30:36
How do you strike the right balance between high tech accessibility solutions and low
30:45
tech, always there solutions?
30:49
Okay, like tactile cues, Braille and strong audio announcements.
30:59
Richard Marion: I still think the balance should lean in favor of low as because I kind of touched on
31:04
that a bit earlier. I think the balance should always lean in favor of low tech
31:07
solutions, because everybody can use some form of low tech solution,
31:11
because high tech still does involve you having some sort of personal device.
31:15
And, and and if you're in a situation where you don't have your personal device,
31:19
a device, at least the low tech solutions are there for you as well.
31:24
And a lot of low tech solutions are can be can are part of are are are being made part
31:31
of the the the physical design standards that are coming out with various accessibility
31:37
acts and updates to building codes and things as well too.
31:40
So it's hope. Hopefully they'll all be there and and,
31:44
and as we develop, develop more accessible wayfinding with tactile with wayfinding tiles
31:52
and, and other other solutions like your phone is not going to tell you,
31:58
for example, that you're, that you've strayed from the sidewalk.
32:02
Side. The bike path side of a, of a of a shared path.
32:05
But tactile tiles will tell you that, like, even if you're not using a cane,
32:12
you know, if you just step on it with your shoe,
32:14
you go, oh, I didn't realize I'd strayed over into the.
32:16
I'm straying over into the bike lane, for example,
32:19
because in shared paths, the bike lane and the sidewalk are level with
32:22
each other. So it's it's so that your phone isn't going to tell you that.
32:28
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I take it you use a combination of both low tech and high tech?
32:32
Yeah. Yeah. You do? Yeah.
32:35
And you've got a guide dog, Baja.
32:37
Richard Marion: I've got a guide dog and.
32:38
Yeah, Baja is is is my trusty companion.
32:43
And but again, it's the same, even though I have a guide dog,
32:48
if I dogs grab with, if they're not going to be able to tell that they're,
32:54
that they're walking on the bike lane side of the path because they're trained to go either
32:58
on the left hand side or right hand side or something. So you have to if you're if you're
33:02
on a shared path, they may be you may be walking down the bike lane and not know it
33:06
until you, until you, until you've crossed like until until someone
33:09
on a bike approaches you from behind. So you still need you still need some physical
33:14
adaptation.
33:16
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So she's just part of the overall suite of.
33:19
Of technology that. Yeah.
33:21
Richard Marion: And also like obviously obviously the their role is to make sure you're safe and that and
33:27
preventing you from you know crossing streets when you're not supposed to or falling down
33:32
stairs and things like that.
33:33
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So and you've had many guide dogs.
33:35
I've met a few of them.
33:37
Richard Marion: Yeah, yeah.
33:39
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: So I know you've spoken publicly about complex design issues like modern bus stop
33:48
layouts. What accessibility concerns, concerns do you see emerging as cities
33:56
redesign streets, stops and transit exchanges?
34:04
Richard Marion: So I think the thing that's that's because because the we're getting into areas of
34:10
different types of mobility, like for, for the general public.
34:13
So like the e-scooters, e-bikes and and so and we're,
34:21
we're starting to get a lot more multi-use environments.
34:23
So I think the thing that the cities have to keep in mind is they have to really work with
34:27
all everyone and come up with solutions that,
34:30
that actually in maintain accessibility.
34:33
So. So some of the big issues that I touched on earlier,
34:36
the the separated bike lanes and the floating platform bus stops is a major accessibility
34:41
issue. And every and if we don't sort of if we actually don't come to grips with that now
34:47
and develop some sort of national guidance or standard on it,
34:50
every single city is going to do something slightly different.
34:53
And and, and every city is going to have a different view of the advice they're getting
34:59
from their community of people with disabilities as well to on the issue as well.
35:03
And we're seeing that in British Columbia.
35:06
Victoria is doing one thing Cologne is doing something else.
35:11
Vancouver might be doing something and even within the same city,
35:15
like they're doing different things as, as they sort of look at.
35:18
So that's the kind of thing like the trying to figure out the best way for everyone to
35:24
coexist because the cities are, are, are trying to focus less on the,
35:30
the personal vehicle like the car cars and and so by doing that they they our streets
35:36
are changing. And I would like to think it's for the better because it's going to be
35:40
better for the environment, but it creates more accessibility.
35:44
It potentially could create a whole new set of accessibility challenges for people with
35:49
disabilities. Like there are people that say they won't leave their home now because the
35:52
bus stop they have to go to is beside a separated bike lane.
35:55
And yet that in the past that wasn't nobody even thought about separated bike lanes and
36:00
bus stops co-existing.
36:06
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Well you've worked in so many different landscapes,
36:10
so many different environments.
36:12
And as the clock winds down I want to ask you this question.
36:15
What's next for my good friend Richard Marion,
36:18
where are you going next.
36:19
What are you thinking. What are you hoping.
36:26
Richard Marion: I don't know, I it's funny when, when I, when I first started doing advocacy,
36:29
when I was a student at 21 years old, I said,
36:32
I'm never going to be doing this for the rest of my life. That was never my goal is I just
36:35
wanted to do something when I was a university student and and and then and then
36:40
all of a sudden, like I said, 35 years later,
36:43
I'm still a big part of my life.
36:46
I think for me, what's next is, is I want to continue I want to continue
36:51
working on accessibility issues.
36:52
I've also been I think I might want to might move towards sort of accessible recreational
37:00
activities like I do, I do I am a board member of the vocal I
37:03
Descriptive Arts Society. So accessible theater and community events is is is
37:08
becoming a major passion of mine as well.
37:11
And so I think that's, that's I want to continue that work.
37:14
And so as I sort of wind down any work I've been doing on transit or web accessibility I
37:20
think that's I would want to spend my volunteer time doing that.
37:24
And also, my husband and I want to do more of our traveling as well too.
37:27
So like, I like have to kind of we kind of were.
37:30
We were both. We're not I won't say we're old,
37:33
but we're we're kind of getting into that age where we think we're like, well, we thought
37:37
we maybe we should cross off a few of our sort of things that we really want to do
37:41
that, that, that before we can't do them anymore.
37:44
So like so I think over the next 5 to 10 years,
37:48
I definitely will do a little less sort of hardcore disability advocacy work and do
37:55
something, do some, some work that's a little more I wouldn't say enjoyable,
37:59
but it's just different for me.
38:00
And then and, and then so that's, that's why I kind of dabble with,
38:05
like I said, accessible theater and community events.
38:10
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: We will not I mean, we did not touch on the fact that and I think you were the youngest
38:14
president of the Alliance for Equality of Blind Canadians.
38:17
Richard Marion: I believe so, yeah. I was I.
38:19
Was. 20. Nine when 28.
38:26
29 when I got elected.
38:28
Did, so did it for one year.
38:32
If I knew now what I knew.
38:33
If I knew then what I know now.
38:34
I may, may have still done it, but would have definitely done a lot of
38:38
different things. But that's a whole other podcast on the early years of the A,
38:43
B, C or the back. Then it was the National Federation of Blind Advocates for equality.
38:46
So yeah.
38:48
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: And that's where we met when I was vice president of the ABC and then became
38:53
president. And you walk the walk with me.
38:55
Richard Marion: Yeah.
38:55
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I think this deserves another podcast to talk about your experiences in that field and what
39:03
you experienced, what what you enjoyed, what you did not quite enjoy,
39:07
what you'd like to see improved.
39:09
So in closing, are there any other comments you would like to make or anything else you'd
39:16
like to tell our listeners?
39:19
Richard Marion: What I'd like to tell you? Listen, especially your younger listeners, like, I
39:22
know, I know today we we all think that all answers are in social media,
39:28
but there is still a need for for group advocacy.
39:32
And, you know. So if you are troubled with an issue like social media is great because
39:38
sometimes it. Sometimes it results in the change you're expecting. But finding like
39:42
minded individuals and community and getting involved in your community really will help
39:47
things overall. And because social media itself is it is nice and it's a great it's a
39:55
great tool, but it should only be one tool in the toolbox.
39:59
And and and also, I don't want to sound like one of those old people,
40:04
but like, the issues people are dealing with today are a lot like,
40:12
they're I was just going to say simpler, but they're different.
40:16
But but when, when we were younger, like, we,
40:19
we didn't have the same sort of tools that that could go that could reach the masses.
40:25
So that's like social media is great as a tool,
40:28
but you know, but still getting together with like minded individuals and being part of a
40:33
group and being on local advisory committees is really is really important,
40:36
is a really important part of that, because that's where real change that's in
40:41
my, my opinion, the real changes happen that affect you,
40:44
your personal life on a day to day basis.
40:48
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: I agree. Richard Marion aka Rich.
40:52
Thank you so much for being a part of our podcast.
40:55
I want to thank you and I look forward to continuing to work with you.
41:00
Richard Marion: Great. Thank you very much. It's been enjoyed.
41:02
Enjoyed being a guest.
41:03
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. You take care now.
41:05
Richard Marion: You too.
41:05
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Okay. Bye bye.
41:06
Richard Marion: Bye.
41:07
Donna Jodhan, LLB, ACSP, MBA: Bye bye.
41:11
Podcast Commentator: Donna wants to hear from you and invites you to write to her at DonnaJodhan@Gmail.com.
41:17
Until next time.