Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Jodi Arias thinks she's special; Kids die playing 'choking game'; New leads in murder of teacher Rachel DelTondo

Transcript

Jodi Arias thinks she's special; Kids die playing 'choking game'; New leads in murder of teacher Rachel DelTondo · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: on Sirius x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. It
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Speaker 1: never ends with Jodi Arius. That's right, one lover after
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Speaker 1: the next, not judging. Okay, if it's not a felony,
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Speaker 1: I don't care. Unless it's got yellow crime scene tape
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Speaker 1: around it, I'm not interested. This is Crime Stories with
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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. Thank you for being with us. But what
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Speaker 1: I am interested in is when you have marathon sex
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Speaker 1: with your lover all afternoon, then you stab him and
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Speaker 1: shoot him dead and leave him to decompose in the shower. Well,
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Speaker 1: it's not over with Jodi Arius right now, because she's
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Speaker 1: so special in her own head. She is demanding something
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Speaker 1: that's very unusual, and she's demanding it from a court
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Speaker 1: of law. She is insisting that her case is so
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Speaker 1: special and so volatile that her appeal process must be
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Speaker 1: kept sealed, in other words, secret. After seeing all those
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Speaker 1: nudy photos of her, I don't know what secrets there
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Speaker 1: are left. But before I jump into that, I've got
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Speaker 1: a guest with me, along with Ashley Wilcott, Dr. Bethany Marshall,
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Speaker 1: and Alexis terres Chuck from Radar Online dot com. It's
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Speaker 1: superstar defense attorney Kirk Nurmi, the Jodi Arias defense lawyer
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Speaker 1: and author of a bestseller, Trapped with ms Arius. You
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Speaker 1: can find it on Amazon dot com. Kurt Nermy, I'll
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Speaker 1: save you your breath of saying you cannot comment on
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Speaker 1: her appeals process because that would be a conflict of
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Speaker 1: ethical interest for you, and I respect that. I want
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Speaker 1: to talk to you about Jodi Arius. And this is
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Speaker 1: not a coffee colatch where I want to drag somebody down.
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Speaker 1: I want the truth about what it was like. And
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Speaker 1: I've read your book Trapped with miss Arius, but I
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Speaker 1: want to hear it from your own math, in your
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Speaker 1: own words. Can you at least say whether you're surprised
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Speaker 1: about her filing demanding secrecy. Well, it's surprising in the
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Speaker 1: sense that, as you pointed out earlier, it's so unusual.
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Speaker 1: But as it relates to miss Arius, I got to
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Speaker 1: the point, I guess where nothing surprises me. So this
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Speaker 1: does not come as a huge shock to me, Alex,
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Speaker 1: says Dr Bethany Ashley. You as may have been on
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Speaker 1: the TV waves with me the night that Jodi Aris
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Speaker 1: was giving yet another jailhouse interview and Kirk NARMI she
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Speaker 1: was caught on camera or maybe she planned it. I
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Speaker 1: don't know anymore what's real and what's not real with Arias.
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Speaker 1: But she was putting on makeup and powder and having
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Speaker 1: her hair adjusted, and you know, there's really no doubt
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Speaker 1: about it. Many people would think she's beautiful. But the
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Speaker 1: same way I look at Scott Peterson, I don't find
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Speaker 1: him a trick at all. I don't find her beautiful.
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Speaker 1: I just see her as a cold blooded killer. And
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Speaker 1: I was thinking, if she was putting that powder on
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Speaker 1: her nose, about you Kirk n Army. I remember it distinctly, thinking,
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Speaker 1: I bet he is having a fit right now, because
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Speaker 1: the last thing you want your client to do is
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Speaker 1: talk to the cameras, even post verdict, because it could
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Speaker 1: mess up your appeal. What you want to tell the
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Speaker 1: appellate court, this and this and this could be late
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Speaker 1: torpedoed in an interview. Well, there's no doubt about that.
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Speaker 1: And remember Nancy, she took special care. Not only did
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Speaker 1: she not wait till the verdict went down, but remember
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Speaker 1: she did interviews between the verdict and the sentence, thing
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Speaker 1: which she made a point to attack me and make
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Speaker 1: the false claim that I was the one who wanted
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Speaker 1: to pursue all these allegations against her victim, not her.
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Speaker 1: She lied, she made sure she had time to do
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Speaker 1: it before she was sent to DC, who was very
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Speaker 1: calculated against me, you know, Kirk, A sign of a
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Speaker 1: calculated attack on you after you and the rest of
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Speaker 1: your team had sat there and given your blood, sweat
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Speaker 1: and tears during that trial, just taken so much abuse,
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Speaker 1: not from just Arias but really everyone the whole public
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Speaker 1: was against you, and to this day you believe it contributed.
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Speaker 1: Do you get in cancer? You know that's what liignant means.
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Speaker 1: Maw worry bad that that's what malignant means. Do you
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Speaker 1: really believe that, Kirk? I do. I mean, obviously there's
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Speaker 1: no way to prove it scientifically, but in my heart,
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Speaker 1: keep in mind I was assigned ms Arius's case in
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Speaker 1: two thousand nine. Thus she was a part of my life,
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Speaker 1: against my wishes, from probably two thousand and ten to
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Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen. And everything that went along with defending her,
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Speaker 1: having her attack me and interviews things of that nature
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Speaker 1: UM caused great concern to me about my safety and
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Speaker 1: that of my wife. Yes, I do. Over those years,
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Speaker 1: I believe that it eventually added up, and that's what
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Speaker 1: turned my healthy blood cells into cancers. Her trial turned
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Speaker 1: into an international Barnum and Bailey circus where Nurmi was,
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Speaker 1: against his will, elected ringmaster. I want to hear what
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Speaker 1: it was like. See I always saw her at a distance,
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Speaker 1: like looking at a tarantula in a glass box. I
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Speaker 1: was at a distance, of course, except for the time
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Speaker 1: she shot a bird at me in court. Um. But
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Speaker 1: needless to say, she wasn't the first and no doubt
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Speaker 1: won't be the last. But Kirk, what was it like
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Speaker 1: being with her. Why was there such a contentious relationship
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Speaker 1: between you two. Well, obviously a lot of that is privileged,
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Speaker 1: but UM, you know, my job, the way I look
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Speaker 1: at it anyway, is is a detachment. Um. I'm not
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Speaker 1: there to support what she did. I'm not there too.
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Speaker 1: I'm just there to help her, support her story. I'm
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Speaker 1: not there to be her friend. And UM, you know
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Speaker 1: that without saying too much, I think that speaks volumes.
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Speaker 1: I'm trying to I'm trying to interpret that. In your book,
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Speaker 1: Trapped with miss Arius, you touch on so many different topics.
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Speaker 1: What do you think was the biggest bombshell in your book?
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Speaker 1: I think so that probably the biggest bombshell was talking
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Speaker 1: about that attachment she had. Um, and this kind of
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Speaker 1: correlates to what I said earlier about her kind of
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Speaker 1: at some point in time viewing me as her boyfriend.
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Speaker 1: I was the most significant man in her life, and
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Speaker 1: I was there to do a job. I was not
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Speaker 1: there to be her friend or supporter in any way
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Speaker 1: other than to advocate her case in the courtroom. You know,
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Speaker 1: I've looked very much, very very often at your book
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Speaker 1: and what everyone thinks about it, and people have taken
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Speaker 1: your book and spun it and spun it and spun it.
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Speaker 1: In fact, there's one person that goes after having read
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Speaker 1: Kirk Normy's book. I only know what I have found
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Speaker 1: out afterwards, that Jody Aris was not there when Travis
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Speaker 1: was murdered, and she did not kill anyone and did
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Speaker 1: not murder Travis Alexander. She was the victim of a
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Speaker 1: false prosecution. Okay, wasn't part of her defense? Uh that
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Speaker 1: she was fighting for her own life at one point
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Speaker 1: and that another part of her defense was she was there,
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Speaker 1: but then Ninja Tid disguised warriors attacked them. I mean,
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Speaker 1: all of her defenses were that she was there. But
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Speaker 1: so what do you take? What do you make of
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Speaker 1: people spinning out what you have written? Well, look, I
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Speaker 1: suppose that's going to happen with anything that anybody says.
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Speaker 1: I mean, ultimately, there are there are facts, and the
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Speaker 1: facts are that Ms Arius, even when she got in
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Speaker 1: she testified, she sat down, she said, she defended herself.
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Speaker 1: We heard her sentencing say one of her last comments
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Speaker 1: in open court was that Mr Alexander was alive when
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Speaker 1: she split his throat. So there are going to be
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Speaker 1: people that are so detached from reality. That they just
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Speaker 1: don't believe that they have created another theory. I talked
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Speaker 1: in my book about her having a cult leader like personality,
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Speaker 1: and obviously there are people that are falling into that
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Speaker 1: and creating their own reality of their leader, as she
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Speaker 1: will caught found a child crime watch dot com. What
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Speaker 1: do you think of the revelations in Nurmi's book? Listen,
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Speaker 1: it fits what I thought based on watching the trial
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Speaker 1: and watching her interviews and watching her behaviors. I'm not
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Speaker 1: at all surprised to read about the revelations that he makes.
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Speaker 1: I regret it for him as the attorney and protecting
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Speaker 1: her constitutional rights. But listen, she wants to be in
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Speaker 1: the public eye. She wants to be everybody pay attention
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Speaker 1: to her, and I'm not at all surprised to hear
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Speaker 1: that she's lying and making stuff up. What about it
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Speaker 1: to you? Alexis Toreso, writer, online dot com reporter. We've
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Speaker 1: covered the case every single day. I think that Jody
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Speaker 1: is somebody who craves the attention. You know, she is
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Speaker 1: locked up behind our life in prison, and she has
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Speaker 1: a Twitter account that she has somebody run. She is
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Speaker 1: constantly in contact with people on the outside. She has
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Speaker 1: never let go of her celebrity status, and she has
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Speaker 1: instigated it. She continues to make sure that people know
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Speaker 1: exactly what she's doing and how she doing with her
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Speaker 1: own spin on things. And that's why we have spent
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Speaker 1: so much time. I personally spent time talking with the
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Speaker 1: prison I have requested records of hers and she hates
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Speaker 1: that because she is not in control of that narrative.
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall. Dr Bethany Marshall l a psychoanalyst. Bethany,
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Speaker 1: take a listen to this excerpt from Nurmi's book. Quote.
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Speaker 1: To fully get a visual of what miss Arius did
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Speaker 1: to my brain, you would have to find some fecal matter,
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Speaker 1: throw it into the pan, add a chopped up dead rat,
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Speaker 1: and scrambled the whole mess up. Once completely cooked. This
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Speaker 1: concoction would then approximate the effect that miss Arius would
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Speaker 1: have on my brain. I think that's pretty clear, Bethany
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Speaker 1: was pretty clear. You know what I've heard when kirk
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Speaker 1: Nermie was talking is that I was thinking about the
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Speaker 1: fact that Shody Arias had sex or Travis Alexander all
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Speaker 1: day long before she stabbed him, slashed his throat and
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Speaker 1: shot him in the head. So she used sex to
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Speaker 1: have power over him and to she used seduction to
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Speaker 1: put him in a place where he was no longer
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Speaker 1: thinking okay. And I experienced this in clinical practice. Whenever
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Speaker 1: a patient is really really disturbed, they'll relate to me
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Speaker 1: in in a way or it's hard to put my
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Speaker 1: thoughts together or to think or to focus because they're
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Speaker 1: saying things that are designed to have me not have
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Speaker 1: an independent mind from them. So I think what happened
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Speaker 1: with Jody Arius and Mr Nermie, unfortunately, is she tried
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Speaker 1: to seduce him in order to keep him from thinking
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Speaker 1: clearly about how malicious and evil and homicidal she was.
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Speaker 1: And Kirk Nermie didn't buy it. He didn't fall into
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Speaker 1: the trap. He maintained his autonomy in his distance from her,
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Speaker 1: and because of that, she grew to hate him and
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Speaker 1: launched an allowed war and attack on him. And this
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Speaker 1: is what really disturbed people do. If they can't control
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Speaker 1: others through their sexuality or manipulation, then they attack, astroy,
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Speaker 1: destroy and hate them. And this is what we see
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Speaker 1: with cult leaders. To right. They most cults are sex cults,
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Speaker 1: so they use sex and power in ways to render
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Speaker 1: their followers helpless and Um, I don't doubt that Mr
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Speaker 1: Nurmy developed cancer or that his you know, some sort
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Speaker 1: of vulnerability to cancer was triggered by this situation because
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Speaker 1: it sounds extraordinarily stressful and toxic to me. Well, it
12:46
Speaker 1: got to the point where I would say, in the
12:48
Speaker 1: commercial breaks, please tag down the naked jetty areas photos please,
12:53
Speaker 1: and whatever you do, do not put them upside my face. Okay,
12:56
Speaker 1: because it was constant. But the reality was, that was
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Speaker 1: such a big part of the trial. I was thinking
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Speaker 1: about all those phone six types. Take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: You are right in the bath. Oh, when we took
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Speaker 1: a bath together. That was that was surreal, like honestly,
13:18
Speaker 1: and I think, I mean, maybe the candle light and
13:20
Speaker 1: the bubble of all has something to do with it.
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Speaker 1: But you were amazing. You made me seriously, you made
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Speaker 1: me feel like a goddess. Like I wasn't saying you
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Speaker 1: were like worshiping me, but you were. You made me
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Speaker 1: feel like I was the most freaking beautiful woman on
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Speaker 1: the whole planet. Right, I so felt like I was
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Speaker 1: the goddess and so aside from all those warm, hezzy feelings,
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Speaker 1: but like it was, it was so sexy and it
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Speaker 1: was so hot, and oh gosh, that wasn't hard to
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Speaker 1: make you more freaking interviewer. You are right now because
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Speaker 1: I touch yourself. Damn party right. I just sorry. I'm
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Speaker 1: gonna tell you to astree You what I'm gonna tell
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Speaker 1: you to a tree you? Oh my gosh, that is
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Speaker 1: so debasing. I like it, and the jury heard that
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Speaker 1: and so much more. But it extended beyond that, according
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Speaker 1: to Kirk Nurmi Jodi Arias, former defense lawyer and author
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Speaker 1: of a bestseller Trapped with ms Arius on Amazon dot com.
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Speaker 1: Now listen to this. Okay, ladies, buckle your seat belts.
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Speaker 1: This is Kirk Nermie riding. I could have ignored all
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Speaker 1: this stuff that I really did not care to listen
14:58
Speaker 1: to you, but listen id for the most part. That
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Speaker 1: is not to say that I didn't have my limits.
15:03
Speaker 1: I remember one discussion I had with miss Arias that
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Speaker 1: related to her sex escapades with Alexander, certainly a relevant
15:10
Speaker 1: topic given the facts of the case. But miss Arius
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Speaker 1: decided she wanted to inform me of the current state
15:19
Speaker 1: of her vaginal grooming. Okay, I just wanted to let
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Speaker 1: that sink in for a moment. Now, Kirk nermy that
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Speaker 1: is in your book, right, That's not what some blogger
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Speaker 1: has written that is that is in my book. Okay,
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Speaker 1: I'm just trying to imagine the look on your face.
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Speaker 1: You're you were married at the time, right, Well, I
15:36
Speaker 1: still am almost twenty five years and you know, good
15:40
Speaker 1: to know, good to know? How did you how does
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Speaker 1: your wife take to Arius talking about her vaginal grooming
15:47
Speaker 1: as you phrases, well, of course, I'm I'm not wasn't
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Speaker 1: sharing that you didn't tell until why client client privilege?
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Speaker 1: In my in my estimation way it talking some of
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Speaker 1: the things she did. Uh, it came out in the book.
16:04
Speaker 1: But listen, you know it. You have a poker face, right,
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Speaker 1: I mean as a defense attorney, you're gonna hear lots
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Speaker 1: of things, and over the years, uh, you develop a
16:14
Speaker 1: poker face and it's just like just something that's just
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Speaker 1: going to be said. And I didn't really care. I
16:20
Speaker 1: didn't fall for it as it were. You know what's
16:22
Speaker 1: interesting about what you're saying. I remember so many times
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Speaker 1: Dr Bethany Marshall. I would come home from court trying
16:31
Speaker 1: whatever case it may have been, you know, a triple murder,
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Speaker 1: serial killer, or a child rapist and I would go
16:40
Speaker 1: get some dinner, get some supper, and David, my now husband,
16:44
Speaker 1: will be talking about what had happened that day and
16:46
Speaker 1: look at me and go, what so what happened in court?
16:48
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh, you know, it's it's a lot.
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Speaker 1: And I just could not. I would not did not
16:58
Speaker 1: want to talk about got it. For me to talk
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Speaker 1: about something painful, it's like reliving it. I had to
17:04
Speaker 1: go through it all over again. And like Normie just said,
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Speaker 1: I mean, you get home, why would you want to
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Speaker 1: talk about j d Arius is Vagina when you get home?
17:16
Speaker 1: I mean I would not want to know. I don't
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Speaker 1: even want to think about it, okay, And hearing her
17:23
Speaker 1: seeing Oh Holy Night, I wish I could get that
17:25
Speaker 1: out of it. Oh. I love that I played every
17:28
Speaker 1: intro and out you you know, went into out play
17:31
Speaker 1: Oh Holy night. Okay. As a matter of fact, Alan roll,
17:34
Speaker 1: Holy night, Oh Holy night. The stars are brightly shock.
17:43
Speaker 1: It is a night of our dear saviors. Longly world
17:53
Speaker 1: and sin and error, poy until he appeared and this
17:59
Speaker 1: all found its word a thrill, the where we world
18:08
Speaker 1: rejoices for you all. And the big lead this morning
18:12
Speaker 1: is Jody Aris just will not let us rest. She's
18:15
Speaker 1: now demanding her appeal be kept a secret. What's that
18:19
Speaker 1: all about, alexis to rest? Shuck. So, Jody has been
18:23
Speaker 1: locked up in prison for three years and she finally
18:26
Speaker 1: her attorneys finally filed her appeal. But instead of telling
18:30
Speaker 1: us what the grounds are for their appeal, they actually
18:32
Speaker 1: filed a request to have the everything sealed. They would
18:36
Speaker 1: want it hidden from the public. They do not want
18:40
Speaker 1: anybody to be able to read what it is they
18:43
Speaker 1: are arguing would be the grounds for her case to
18:45
Speaker 1: be overturned, her conviction and sentence for murder. And what
18:50
Speaker 1: they have cited is the fact that the case is
18:54
Speaker 1: of such public interests. They say that because of this,
18:58
Speaker 1: people are afraid to come forward and testify on her behalf.
19:03
Speaker 1: They say that the public records that I have requested
19:07
Speaker 1: have become part of the case, which again public records
19:12
Speaker 1: are part of the case that they don't want the
19:13
Speaker 1: public to know about, even though you have a right
19:15
Speaker 1: to know about these things. So they are asking the
19:19
Speaker 1: appealed court to allow them to file everything in secret.
19:23
Speaker 1: Also speaking about the very lights Jodi Arias is another
19:27
Speaker 1: of her attorneys, Jennifer Wilmot. Listen as Wilmot speaks to
19:31
Speaker 1: Arizona Republic Court reporter Michael Keefer. Once we started trial
19:35
Speaker 1: in January, I went through death threats my family, They
19:38
Speaker 1: threatened my children, having deputies walk us across the street
19:42
Speaker 1: with their hands on their guns. Things like that. I've
19:45
Speaker 1: never experienced before, and I really didn't think that this
19:48
Speaker 1: case would be that type of case to have that.
19:50
Speaker 1: Do you think this is an example of how cases
19:52
Speaker 1: are going to be in the future. I hope not.
19:54
Speaker 1: I don't see the attraction to this case. I don't
19:56
Speaker 1: know why there were followers, um, why people would show
20:00
Speaker 1: up every day. I really hope that. I mean, as
20:03
Speaker 1: a state, as a country, as a world, people wouldn't
20:06
Speaker 1: be that fascinated with someone's murder. I think it's a
20:09
Speaker 1: sad commentary. This is what they're saying. They don't really
20:12
Speaker 1: explain why, other than two very mysteriously right in their
20:18
Speaker 1: motion that their brief must remain secret because it is
20:24
Speaker 1: quote in the interest of protecting the safety of certain parties.
20:28
Speaker 1: Maybe it's to protect us from having to hear about
20:30
Speaker 1: her vagina anymore. I don't know, but I can guarantee this.
20:34
Speaker 1: I don't think there's any way that the appeal is
20:37
Speaker 1: going to be kept secret. Kurt Nermy, her former defense attorney,
20:40
Speaker 1: author of Trapped with ms Arius on Amazon dot com said,
20:45
Speaker 1: that's a very unusual move. It is, Ashley Wilcott, you're
20:52
Speaker 1: a judge and a lawyer. That's very rare. In fact,
20:55
Speaker 1: I've never seen accept in some m mob in drug
21:00
Speaker 1: cases for any of the filings on appeal to be
21:03
Speaker 1: kept secret. That's right, So Nancy there. You know, as
21:06
Speaker 1: a judge, I have to apply the law to the
21:08
Speaker 1: facts that are presented, and there is a legal presumption
21:12
Speaker 1: that appeals should be public. That's what the law provides,
21:15
Speaker 1: and I cannot imagine a set of facts convincing me
21:18
Speaker 1: as a court that this should not be a public appeal.
21:22
Speaker 1: That's the latest. Kurtnermi, super lawyer author Trapped with ms Arius.
21:28
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, and we'll go out
21:30
Speaker 1: with a little more Holy Night on your knee. Oh
21:38
Speaker 1: hey angel boys, Oh no, d b oh no, when
21:52
Speaker 1: christ was born? Oh no, de b oh. Did you
22:06
Speaker 1: know about a recent law that could leave your personal
22:09
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Speaker 1: Slash Nancy, enter your own name, Get started. Beautiful Utah
23:21
Speaker 1: Boy Dead. He dies over the weekend after an These
23:26
Speaker 1: little friends were playing a game called the Fainting Game.
23:33
Speaker 1: Listen to to his mom, mother's day, planning my son's funeral,
23:37
Speaker 1: writing his obiture instead of having breakfaster sorry flowers or
23:47
Speaker 1: I love you mom. Try to imagine what it would
23:50
Speaker 1: be like and then multiply that by infinity, and that's
23:54
Speaker 1: kind of what it's like. He was just playing a
23:56
Speaker 1: game and he didn't think things through. With any other
24:00
Speaker 1: mother to go through what I have to go through.
24:02
Speaker 1: That is the mother of to A Malwaihi, describing the
24:06
Speaker 1: pains she is suffering after her twelve year old little
24:08
Speaker 1: boy their family living in Utah is found dead. He
24:13
Speaker 1: was just playing a game and he didn't understand. He
24:16
Speaker 1: didn't think things through. He was playing a game in
24:20
Speaker 1: the hopes of cutting off oxygen and it makes you
24:24
Speaker 1: pass out. Take a listen to children laughing and playing
24:30
Speaker 1: about the choking game. The pass out challenge as it's called.
24:44
Speaker 1: I'm going to show you now is completely safe. Don't
24:47
Speaker 1: listen to other people out to alexas terres Chuck, investigative
24:51
Speaker 1: reporter with Radar Online dot Com, what happened to Chewa?
24:56
Speaker 1: So you had said he and his little friends, they're
24:59
Speaker 1: little These was our eleven and twelve years old. He
25:01
Speaker 1: was twelve years old. Play this game where they cut
25:04
Speaker 1: off their circulation. They choked themselves, but they videotape it
25:08
Speaker 1: and then they put it online and so this has
25:10
Speaker 1: become a thing, a popularity contest, which is everything else
25:13
Speaker 1: with these little kids in the Internet. They want people
25:15
Speaker 1: to watch it, they want the lights, they want to
25:17
Speaker 1: become famous. So he did this and it went too
25:21
Speaker 1: far and he cut off the circulation long enough that
25:24
Speaker 1: that he died and his mother frantically called nine one
25:27
Speaker 1: one when she found him. They rushed into the hospital,
25:30
Speaker 1: but it was too late for him to Alan Duke
25:33
Speaker 1: joining us from l A. Alan, do you remember about
25:37
Speaker 1: a year maybe longer ago, I was reading about this
25:42
Speaker 1: game and it was all over Russia, and I think
25:48
Speaker 1: we did a story then, but it wasn't really on
25:50
Speaker 1: our radar. And I'm like, I remember saying, Alan, it's
25:55
Speaker 1: gonna take no time before it gets to the US,
25:57
Speaker 1: you know that? And you went, yep, and it's here.
26:00
Speaker 1: It's social media. It's you know, Twitter, Instagram, Snapchat, Facebook.
26:05
Speaker 1: It just spreads on social media where something is a
26:09
Speaker 1: trend on one side of the world, pretty soon it
26:11
Speaker 1: comes over to America. Yeah, there there are no borders
26:14
Speaker 1: for this. Ashley Willcot with me, juvenile judge, lawyer and
26:17
Speaker 1: founder of child crime watch dot com ash. This little
26:22
Speaker 1: boy and his friends had just gone to sixth grade.
26:26
Speaker 1: They are a year and a half older than our children.
26:31
Speaker 1: Isn't that terrifying? And Nancy, do you know this really
26:34
Speaker 1: dates back? There are cases the United States as far
26:37
Speaker 1: back as and there are kids who have died as
26:42
Speaker 1: young as nine. That's younger than our kids. Can you
26:46
Speaker 1: imagine at nine? And it all boils down to kids
26:51
Speaker 1: brains are not developed. They do not understand the danger
26:56
Speaker 1: in this. They do not get it. It's not just toy,
27:00
Speaker 1: all right, it's just not him across the country. That
27:04
Speaker 1: happens in another home. Take a listen to this call,
27:08
Speaker 1: din't can't be there with you? That is about little
27:17
Speaker 1: Carson Steel. His dad walks into his room and finds
27:22
Speaker 1: his son. They're dead, hanging from a belt. He couldn't
27:28
Speaker 1: even understand what he was seeing. Listen and when I
27:32
Speaker 1: saw his not touching the ground and it's all belt
27:36
Speaker 1: around his neck, and it just took me a minute
27:38
Speaker 1: forward register Then, to make matters worse, little Carson's mother
27:43
Speaker 1: finds the choking challenge on video. It was video and
27:51
Speaker 1: he was narrating, so he probably was maybe involved in
27:54
Speaker 1: Online Challenge Back to Alexa's Torres Chuck with Radar Online
27:58
Speaker 1: dot Com therey us to get a reporter. Alexis, there's
28:02
Speaker 1: Tua in Utah, and then across the country there's little Carson.
28:07
Speaker 1: What happened in Carson's case the same thing this little
28:10
Speaker 1: boy had been playing that they're calling it the fainting
28:13
Speaker 1: game because what they do is they faint just for
28:16
Speaker 1: a few seconds. There these little kids cut off their
28:18
Speaker 1: oxygen and then they wake up and and they've they've
28:21
Speaker 1: experienced this painting and there's a video of it, and
28:23
Speaker 1: they can laugh at each other because they look really
28:26
Speaker 1: silly when they You know, you fall down and you
28:28
Speaker 1: don't have any you're not conscious. But the same thing
28:31
Speaker 1: this little boy used to belt to hang himself, and
28:36
Speaker 1: it went too far. Because this is this is not
28:39
Speaker 1: a game that anybody should be playing. I want anybody
28:41
Speaker 1: listening thinking that this is a fun game that they
28:43
Speaker 1: should try out. This is what this is disgusting. This
28:46
Speaker 1: is what porn stars do, and this is this is
28:48
Speaker 1: why this has permeated our culture. You know, Alexis to
28:52
Speaker 1: rest Chuck right are online investigative reporter. I'm not doing
28:56
Speaker 1: this to tell other children about I'm doing it to
28:58
Speaker 1: tell parents about it. And I don't know how you
29:01
Speaker 1: got into porn Alexas Dr Bethany Marshall, renown Psycho Analy's
29:06
Speaker 1: joining me out of l A. There's another child I
29:09
Speaker 1: want to highlight in addition to Tua in Utah, it's
29:12
Speaker 1: Carson Steel. Carson Steel in South Carolina, York County. The
29:17
Speaker 1: CDC estimating over one hudred children have already died in
29:22
Speaker 1: our country alone playing something called the choking game or
29:27
Speaker 1: the pass out challenge or the fainting game, where children
29:32
Speaker 1: think they're just cutting off their air supply just for
29:35
Speaker 1: a minute, and it makes you feel euphoric and dizzy.
29:39
Speaker 1: I remember, even when Lucy was a little girl, she
29:41
Speaker 1: would twirl around and around and around until she felt
29:43
Speaker 1: dizzy and fall down laughing. All right, they think it's funny.
29:48
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, I don't know how Alexis managed to rope
29:50
Speaker 1: in porn stars to this. You know, kids love to
29:55
Speaker 1: play games with their bodies, you know, whether it's like
29:58
Speaker 1: I don't know, lowing bubbles, spitting on people, spinning around
30:02
Speaker 1: like Lucy did. And so I think that there's a
30:05
Speaker 1: perfect storm of um events that lead to something like this.
30:10
Speaker 1: One of these little boys had just returned from camp,
30:13
Speaker 1: so probably all the other boys were talking about it. There.
30:17
Speaker 1: Boys love often, boys love ropes, um belts, things that
30:21
Speaker 1: they can tie things together with. That seems to be
30:24
Speaker 1: a boy characteristic. The prefrontal cortex is not yet fully
30:27
Speaker 1: developed in children, so they can't That means they cannot
30:31
Speaker 1: anticipate dangerous situations or learn from their mistakes. The executive
30:36
Speaker 1: planning part of the brain is very really developed. And
30:39
Speaker 1: then there's this copycat syndrome where they see it on
30:43
Speaker 1: the net or they see other kids doing it, And
30:46
Speaker 1: I think, finally, you probably have one boy in a
30:50
Speaker 1: circle of boys. I'm guessing I can't this is um
30:54
Speaker 1: what I'm hypothesizing. I don't know for sure, but there's
30:57
Speaker 1: probably a ring leader amongst all these boys, one boy
31:00
Speaker 1: who's quite fascinated with it and keeps bringing up the
31:03
Speaker 1: topic and pushing other boys to experiment. And then it
31:06
Speaker 1: just comes together in some very tragic and fatal way.
31:10
Speaker 1: The thing about them having a fainting challenge. The mom says, quote,
31:16
Speaker 1: I've asked myself a thousand times, why Carson did this?
31:19
Speaker 1: Says mom Jennifer quote on his cell phone. Carson had
31:23
Speaker 1: done it several times. The mom thinks he was involved
31:26
Speaker 1: in some kind of an online challenge because it was
31:29
Speaker 1: videoed and Carson was narrating it, and it's you video
31:35
Speaker 1: yourself choking and you get you for you pass out
31:40
Speaker 1: and the the goal is you stop choking yourself then,
31:45
Speaker 1: But that's not how it worked out. As a matter
31:48
Speaker 1: of fact, shortly after Carson passed away, an eleven year
31:53
Speaker 1: old boy, Garrett Pope junior in Lancaster County, also died.
32:00
Speaker 1: Um explain to me how that would work, Dr Bethany,
32:04
Speaker 1: How would it work? They do? The children think they're
32:08
Speaker 1: going to suffocate just long enough to get dizzy and
32:12
Speaker 1: pass out in it, they're going to come to h
32:15
Speaker 1: I mean again, because the prefrontal cortex is not fully developed,
32:19
Speaker 1: they cannot anticipate that there might be a bad happening.
32:22
Speaker 1: Keep in mind that school aged children are taught to
32:27
Speaker 1: be competitive. It's also a good trade in children to
32:30
Speaker 1: get the best grade and to be on the winning
32:32
Speaker 1: team and to you know, turn in the best art
32:35
Speaker 1: project or science project. But this is a group of
32:38
Speaker 1: kids competing on their own, away from the oversight of parents.
32:44
Speaker 1: Thinking that this whoever becomes the most euphoric or passes
32:48
Speaker 1: out the longest will be the most popular kid. It's
32:52
Speaker 1: like just king to the hill. It's it's the it's
32:54
Speaker 1: the guy, the kid that rides the fastest bike. I mean,
32:57
Speaker 1: in a way, it's that innocent, suite and simple, and
33:01
Speaker 1: yet it takes a really bad turn when there's access
33:05
Speaker 1: to something dangerous like a belt or rope around the neck.
33:09
Speaker 1: And then you have the Internet where all you see
33:11
Speaker 1: is the image of the other child choking themselves and
33:15
Speaker 1: getting all these likes or people responding to them. And
33:19
Speaker 1: then then the choking victim wants to have more likes,
33:21
Speaker 1: wants to have more popularity, and at that point it
33:24
Speaker 1: just spends out of control. To Ashley Wilcott, juvenile judge
33:28
Speaker 1: law your founder of child crime watch dot com, it's
33:32
Speaker 1: a double edged sword. I guess to try to talk
33:35
Speaker 1: to your children about this in that way, you're also
33:38
Speaker 1: informing them about it. If they haven't already heard of it,
33:41
Speaker 1: then you tell them about it. And that's a struggle
33:44
Speaker 1: parents have across the board with any activity that's dangerous.
33:47
Speaker 1: But I personally will tell you I see too many
33:50
Speaker 1: cases in court where kids are injured or killed, and
33:54
Speaker 1: it happens all the time. And I believe as parents
33:57
Speaker 1: we have a responsibility to educate our children's so yes,
34:00
Speaker 1: it's going to make them aware this is going on.
34:02
Speaker 1: But I just told my eighth grade son about a
34:04
Speaker 1: thing that kids are doing with drugs, and his response
34:06
Speaker 1: to me was, oh my gosh, that's the stupidest thing
34:09
Speaker 1: I've ever heard. Why would a kid do that? So
34:12
Speaker 1: I think we need to educate in a way that
34:15
Speaker 1: our kids understand, Yes, this is out there, Yes this
34:18
Speaker 1: is happening. I'm not telling you to make it a
34:20
Speaker 1: big thing that's fun to do. I'm telling you to
34:22
Speaker 1: educate you about it can actually kill you. Well. Another
34:26
Speaker 1: thing that when I first heard about this back out
34:28
Speaker 1: to Alan Deep joining me. It then was called the
34:32
Speaker 1: Blue Whale Game or the Blue Whale Challenge. It was
34:37
Speaker 1: a social network phenomenon and it was in multiple countries.
34:44
Speaker 1: The game reports of tasks assigned to players over a
34:49
Speaker 1: period of days where in the end you commit suicide. Okay,
34:55
Speaker 1: then it morphed into the Fainting Game or the choking challenge,
34:59
Speaker 1: and it's everywhere. If you believe you know anyone involved
35:04
Speaker 1: in this deadly game, look for red or bloodshot eyes,
35:08
Speaker 1: marks around the neck where excessive pressure has been applied.
35:13
Speaker 1: When a person complains repeatedly of headaches or dizziness. Those
35:19
Speaker 1: are characteristics of some kid playing the so called fainting game. Alan,
35:26
Speaker 1: what's the hotline? It's seven three to National Suicide Prevention
35:32
Speaker 1: Lifeline two seven three eight two five five, and they're
35:38
Speaker 1: specifically warning about this. This is what I know. The
35:42
Speaker 1: family of Toa Mawahi is grieving. Now. Listen to to us, mom,
35:51
Speaker 1: uncle and coach. A lot of people loved my boy.
35:54
Speaker 1: He would have been an amazing man. To see my
35:57
Speaker 1: sister there Um pore ving Um at the side of
36:01
Speaker 1: her son on a hospital bed was was very, very difficult.
36:05
Speaker 1: This hurt, This hurts. It was like ice threw my
36:11
Speaker 1: veins to watch my son cry, watch my other my
36:16
Speaker 1: other kids on my team cry. As they say in
36:21
Speaker 1: Alice in Wonderland, things are getting curious er and curious er.
36:28
Speaker 1: The facts keep unfolding in a way that you think
36:32
Speaker 1: you're onto something that just unravels in your hands. I'm
36:35
Speaker 1: talking about the mysterious murder of a gorgeous young teacher,
36:40
Speaker 1: Rachel del Tondo, found shot dead in the driveway of
36:45
Speaker 1: her family home. She's absolutely gorgeous. And what has added
36:49
Speaker 1: fuel to the fire of speculation regarding her murder is
36:53
Speaker 1: that she had just bought this beautifully fitted, tailored, one
36:59
Speaker 1: of a kind, handmade, ten thousand dollar wedding dress. Then
37:06
Speaker 1: before the wedding went down, the groom jilts her, breaks
37:11
Speaker 1: it all off. She stuck with a wedding dress. It
37:14
Speaker 1: became a big drama in their upscale suburb, and then
37:18
Speaker 1: she's gunned down in the driveway. Well, you naturally would
37:24
Speaker 1: look at the groom to be but he has an alibi.
37:28
Speaker 1: Then you find out that this young teacher had been
37:32
Speaker 1: dismissed from her job. Then what's that all about. Then
37:37
Speaker 1: you find out that she was set to testify a
37:42
Speaker 1: grand jury about misappropriation of funds within the public school
37:46
Speaker 1: where she taught. Then it's not over yet. It just
37:51
Speaker 1: keeps going. Then you find out the reason that she
37:55
Speaker 1: was suspended from teaching was because she was in a
37:58
Speaker 1: steamed up car with a teen student at two am
38:03
Speaker 1: in the morning and get side of the car, both
38:06
Speaker 1: of them fully clothed, both of them denying any inappropriate conduct.
38:12
Speaker 1: Her begging not for for her fiance, not to be
38:15
Speaker 1: told about it. I mean, there's so many ways to
38:20
Speaker 1: go with this, but so many avenues to investigate. But
38:23
Speaker 1: right now the bombshell is a search warrant has just
38:27
Speaker 1: been issued for a police officer wife Facebook account as
38:34
Speaker 1: part of the investigation into the mysterious murder of Rachel Deltondo.
38:40
Speaker 1: Out to renowned l A psychoanalyst, Dr Bethany Marshall and
38:45
Speaker 1: founder a child crime watch dot com, juvenal Judge Ashley Wilcott,
38:49
Speaker 1: I left out another suspect. Excuse me? I left out
38:53
Speaker 1: not another suspect, but another avenue of investigation. Ashley. Do
38:58
Speaker 1: you remember that the police report where she was found
39:03
Speaker 1: at two am in a car with a eighteen boy
39:07
Speaker 1: that never amounted to a hill of beans? But then
39:10
Speaker 1: months later that report was leaked by someone with access
39:16
Speaker 1: to police computer software. It was sent to her fiance,
39:21
Speaker 1: to news outlets, to the school. Who could have done that?
39:25
Speaker 1: What about it? Ashley? Well, that's right. So when you
39:29
Speaker 1: say it didn't amount to a hill being let's be
39:32
Speaker 1: specifically protective services in spite of the the boy that
39:36
Speaker 1: was with her being a juvenile, and it never got
39:39
Speaker 1: reported to the school. So who could have done that?
39:41
Speaker 1: Someone perhaps that believes there's corruption in the police department.
39:45
Speaker 1: They didn't do the right thing, so they're going to
39:47
Speaker 1: leak it. Perhaps the What about a family member of
39:50
Speaker 1: this juvenile who was caught with her? We don't know.
39:54
Speaker 1: Take a listen to this relationship. I think it cooled
39:58
Speaker 1: for a while, um and but the relationship never ended.
40:01
Speaker 1: She was due to testify in front of the grand jury,
40:06
Speaker 1: which has been investigating Aliquippa, among other entities, and she
40:10
Speaker 1: was afraid. And we find it far from a coincidence
40:13
Speaker 1: that she was murdered within days of having to testify.
40:17
Speaker 1: This was not a crime of passion. I believe it's
40:19
Speaker 1: a crime of a cover up, cover up. This is
40:22
Speaker 1: another thing I'm learning to Dr Bethany Marshall, renowned psychoanalyst
40:26
Speaker 1: out of l A. I found out her fiancee as
40:29
Speaker 1: a millionaire. Okay, that isn't either here nor there. But
40:33
Speaker 1: it's just another curious fact. You know how I get
40:36
Speaker 1: involved in every witness's story and all the ins and
40:40
Speaker 1: outs of every single move. What about this, Bethany? A
40:44
Speaker 1: search warrant file seeking access to the Facebook account of
40:49
Speaker 1: the mother of a witness in the murder of Rachel
40:54
Speaker 1: del Tondo, it's seeking access to catch This hold on
41:00
Speaker 1: follow me, stay with me is so confusing and need
41:03
Speaker 1: an ORG chart. I know the Facebook account belongs to
41:07
Speaker 1: the wife of a police sergeant whose daughter went with
41:14
Speaker 1: a murder victim that night for ice cream. Now what
41:17
Speaker 1: could possibly be on the police officer's wife Facebook account?
41:24
Speaker 1: Their status, updates, notes, shares, postings, friend listings, private messages.
41:31
Speaker 1: I'm reading from official documents um that we have obtained
41:37
Speaker 1: regarding their search warrants. What would a mother, a wife
41:41
Speaker 1: of a police officer have to do with any of this.
41:43
Speaker 1: One of the things we know is that the local
41:46
Speaker 1: police department was under investigation, and I'm not sure what
41:50
Speaker 1: they were being investigated for, but Rachel that Deltondo was
41:54
Speaker 1: cooperating with them. What doesn't make sense to me is
41:58
Speaker 1: that if the wife of the plice officer was somehow
42:01
Speaker 1: involved in the shooting. A mother would never arrange something
42:05
Speaker 1: like that if her daughter was with the intended victim.
42:10
Speaker 1: I mean, does that make sense? It doesn't right. The
42:13
Speaker 1: other thing I keep holding in my mind is that
42:15
Speaker 1: Rachel Delpondo was the victim of stalking in some way
42:19
Speaker 1: and in some form. Somebody really had it out for her.
42:24
Speaker 1: Somebody was leaking information about her, somebody was smearing her image.
42:29
Speaker 1: There was a huge smear campaign. But I'm beginning to
42:33
Speaker 1: wonder if two things weren't going on at once, and
42:35
Speaker 1: that's why we're confused, if perhaps someone was stalking her,
42:39
Speaker 1: but at the same time, another person wanted her dad
42:42
Speaker 1: because she was at the center of an investigation. You know,
42:45
Speaker 1: another interesting thing, the daughter is a minor now this
42:49
Speaker 1: police officer's wife. And just so you know, the police
42:52
Speaker 1: sergeant has been placed on administrative leave. He's off the
42:58
Speaker 1: force for now on the l Equipped Police Department. This
43:01
Speaker 1: is just getting more and more twisted, or as I said,
43:05
Speaker 1: curious er and curious er. Now think about it. Bethany,
43:08
Speaker 1: Dr Bethany, the daughter that went with the murder victim,
43:12
Speaker 1: the teacher for ice cream that night, is a miner.
43:16
Speaker 1: Now police want to see her mom's Facebook everything to
43:21
Speaker 1: do with that, private messages, photos, friends, likes, listening to
43:25
Speaker 1: the works. Is that connected to the daughter in some way?
43:29
Speaker 1: Do you think it's interesting because it tells me that well,
43:33
Speaker 1: I'm a little unclear why Rachel Deltondo would be out
43:37
Speaker 1: with a miner, you know, late on a Sunday night
43:39
Speaker 1: on Mother's Day, because we already know she was with
43:42
Speaker 1: the teen in the car. But I'm trying not to
43:44
Speaker 1: make too much of that. In a minute, the thing
43:48
Speaker 1: about the team in the car, apparently she had had
43:51
Speaker 1: the dead teacher, Rachel Deltondo, the bride with a ten
43:55
Speaker 1: tho dollar wedding dress, had had a relationship with that
43:58
Speaker 1: teen's older other. So were they in the car talking
44:03
Speaker 1: about that? I don't know, but there was never a
44:08
Speaker 1: complaint that she had underage sex in any way with
44:13
Speaker 1: that teen in the car. She was at some point
44:18
Speaker 1: dating his older brother. Now, remember she's engaged to a millionaire,
44:21
Speaker 1: so you know, some things about to blow, all right
44:25
Speaker 1: with this love triangle? Go ahead, Well, it's interesting to
44:28
Speaker 1: you that she's hanging out with so many miners. I
44:30
Speaker 1: don't know what to make about that. You know, maybe
44:32
Speaker 1: that's a minor point, you know, perhaps because she was
44:35
Speaker 1: a teacher she really cares about her students, or maybe
44:38
Speaker 1: she has age inappropriate relationships. But if she has age
44:42
Speaker 1: inappropriate relationships, the sergeant's daughter who was with her that
44:46
Speaker 1: night is going to be a treasure trove of information
44:49
Speaker 1: because that means Rachel will have confided in her talk
44:52
Speaker 1: to her, and if this miner has a good relationship
44:56
Speaker 1: with her mother, there may be a lot of messaging
44:59
Speaker 1: back and forth about what was going on that night,
45:02
Speaker 1: about things Rachel has said, about relationships that Rachel has.
45:07
Speaker 1: So it could be that just by proxy, the sergeant's wife,
45:11
Speaker 1: the miner's mother, has a lot of information about what
45:15
Speaker 1: went on that night. Wiganne Ashley willcon listen. The other
45:17
Speaker 1: thing we need to think about is the wife's private
45:20
Speaker 1: Facebook account that's been subpoena. I automatically think of the husband.
45:25
Speaker 1: Is he perhaps using that as their information about him
45:28
Speaker 1: on the police force or his involvement or potential involvement
45:32
Speaker 1: in it, because he may be using her private Facebook messaging.
45:35
Speaker 1: They're married to Dr Bethany Marshall, l a psychoanalysts. I'm
45:40
Speaker 1: looking at a photo right now of the deceased teacher,
45:44
Speaker 1: just absolutely gorgeous, and she's standing with her then fiance
45:48
Speaker 1: in front of the Eiffel Tower. They're kissing. I think
45:52
Speaker 1: this may be an announcement of their engagement. They dated
45:56
Speaker 1: for eight years and this whole thing blew is up
46:00
Speaker 1: and he breaks it off. Somebody's got some money if
46:03
Speaker 1: they're on a European tour. Okay, Nancy, and I remember
46:07
Speaker 1: seeing photos of her at various events, and she was
46:10
Speaker 1: wearing very expensive clothing, and according to one report, she
46:14
Speaker 1: had a posh mark account where she was selling clothing
46:19
Speaker 1: that she no longer wanted, and one post said that
46:22
Speaker 1: she would sell everything for a million dollars. So I
46:25
Speaker 1: don't know if that was tongue in cheek or she
46:27
Speaker 1: was serious, but I thought this This thirty something year
46:31
Speaker 1: old teacher now deceased, moved back in with her parents
46:35
Speaker 1: when the wedding was called off, but had all of
46:38
Speaker 1: this expensive clothing. Who was supplying all of this? She
46:41
Speaker 1: a teacher cannot afford that kind of clothing. And what
46:46
Speaker 1: kind of power and muscle is behind the jilted fiance?
46:51
Speaker 1: And again from psychoanalytic perspective, somebody was obsessed with her,
46:55
Speaker 1: somebody was stalking her. Wasn't somebody from the police department
46:59
Speaker 1: because there was the soapen investigation. Wasn't the jilted lover.
47:02
Speaker 1: Now they're saying that this was not a crime of passion,
47:05
Speaker 1: which would lead me to believe it was not the
47:07
Speaker 1: jilted lover, but perhaps something going on within the police department.
47:12
Speaker 1: So the big goes on in the very convoluted investigation
47:18
Speaker 1: into the death of this gorgeous young brunette teacher, Rachel Deltano.
47:24
Speaker 1: This is what I know. Her family devastated. Alan de
47:30
Speaker 1: We've been covering this so closely, and in the last hours,
47:33
Speaker 1: Rachel's mother has actually spoken. What did she indicate whether
47:39
Speaker 1: her daughter was afraid? Nancy Rachel's mother, in an interview
47:43
Speaker 1: with the local paper, the Beaver County in says her
47:46
Speaker 1: daughter was afraid of the local police. Quote. We knew
47:50
Speaker 1: it was dirty. She says that police department has been
47:54
Speaker 1: dirty for fifty years unquote. Also, Rachel herself told the
47:58
Speaker 1: newspaper months earlier, or during the leaked police report scandal,
48:02
Speaker 1: that she had been receiving death threats and was told
48:05
Speaker 1: she wouldn't live to see the end of her mother,
48:09
Speaker 1: Lisa Deltondo, says she heard of those threats firsthand. Rachel
48:14
Speaker 1: reported the death threats to police two times. The mother
48:17
Speaker 1: says she also called the police to report them, complaining
48:20
Speaker 1: though that the local detective waited four days to call
48:24
Speaker 1: her back, and she says Rachel was indeed in fear
48:27
Speaker 1: from those death threats, quoting now, she was scared of everyone.
48:31
Speaker 1: She was a scared rabbit. How do we know she
48:35
Speaker 1: was really cooperating and was going to be a witness.
48:38
Speaker 1: Lisa del Tondo says her daughter did agree to cooperate
48:41
Speaker 1: with state investigators in their in their probe of the
48:44
Speaker 1: police corruption allegations uh, and that she met with the
48:48
Speaker 1: state investigators three times. But the mom says her daughter
48:52
Speaker 1: was too afraid to tell them everything she knew, quoting
48:56
Speaker 1: now she knew a lot more. She was worried. The
49:00
Speaker 1: mom says she didn't know about a grand jury subpoena,
49:03
Speaker 1: and she thinks she would have known if that was true. Though,
49:06
Speaker 1: Rachel Deltado's mother does not believe her daughter's death was
49:09
Speaker 1: a direct result of any government corruption, but she does
49:13
Speaker 1: think that the police leak helped fan flames of passion
49:17
Speaker 1: which had eventually led to her daughter's murder. You know, Alan,
49:22
Speaker 1: I bet the mom and dad haven't even had a
49:25
Speaker 1: chance to grieve their daughter's shooting death with all of
49:29
Speaker 1: this ruckous surrounding her murder. Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off,
49:37
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