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Embowered by Whom? · Beyond the Sermon

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  You're listening to Beyond the Sermon, the podcast of First
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  Methodist Church in Collingswood, NJ.
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  On our podcast, the goal is not just to share the sermons we've
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  preached, but to go beyond the sermon and talk about what we're
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  learning and what God is doing in US and in our community.
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  The conversation you're about to join was inspired by a message
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  from our Spring 2026 sermon series, Empowered, Understanding
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  and Exercising the Gifts of the Spirit.
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  You can find more information about our church at
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  fumccollingswood.org. Thanks for joining us for this
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  conversation. Well, before we get into this
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  new sermon series, you were away again and we just talked about
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  you being away on the last episode.
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  True. And yeah, it was kind of funny
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  because people who knew they're how is Tennessee?
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  I'm like which time? Oh yeah, I forgot it was to the
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  fame state because. We drove to Tennessee as a
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  family, drove home on Sunday, and then Meg and I flew to
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  Tennessee, to Nashville on Thursday, and we're there
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  Thursday and Friday for a conference.
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  Yeah. What conference was this?
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  It was a new room gathering, which is put on by the same
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  group that does the new room conference in the fall that
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  we've gone to the last few years.
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  But these gatherings tend to be focused a little more tightly
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  around certain concepts or so instead of bringing in like 6
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  main speakers and having all these breakout sessions and
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  stuff, we had, you know, a day and a half of content from 1
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  presenter, who is John Thompson that I mentioned in the sermon
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  on Sunday. So.
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  So you had him in the cohort reading his books, and then you
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  just couldn't get enough. Couldn't get enough.
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  And you went back and what was like your top three takeaways
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  from this conference? I pull out my journal which has
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  20 pages of notes from the day and 1/2.
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  It's one of those many key chain journals.
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  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think one of the biggest
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  things that I took away was hearing so much of it in a short
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  amount of time and just moving right through it because I enjoy
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  reading. I'm not like a super speed
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  reader, so to read his 300 page book or whatever took a while.
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  When I was with John in our cohort last year, we had like 2
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  hour and a half sessions with him.
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  Only one of them was on spiritual gifts, the other one
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  was on deliverance. And so to to just be able to in
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  a day and a half really get like the whole flow of his thought
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  because I had listened. He preached a series last year
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  working through his version of this material at his church, and
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  that took him 14 weeks. Well.
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  Yeah. And so I've listened to it, but,
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  you know, I didn't sit down and, you know, put on my headphones
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  and listen for 14 hours straight.
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  So hearing it all in one big flow was really helpful.
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  And then New Room talks about their conferences.
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  Not as you know, the purpose isn't to be a conference, it's
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  not to have the biggest attendance, it's not to.
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  Bolster up an individual. Yeah, bolster up an individual
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  or to give you a lot of information, although a lot of
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  information gets transferred, but they plan them, they think
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  about them as a meeting with Jesus.
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  And so even though I came home with 20 pages of notes and, you
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  know, cramping my hand from writing so much there, there
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  were times of worship as well. And there were times set aside
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  for responding to what God was saying, what the Spirit was
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  doing, and those kind of things. And in in one of those sessions,
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  he was encouraging us to to ask God what are his yeses for us?
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  What are the things He has given us, and what are the gifts He's
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  not given us and doesn't intend to give us?
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  And in that time, I felt like God gave me some key clarity on
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  some things I've been wrestling with regarding whether something
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  was a spiritual gift or just kind of a natural inclination or
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  just a function of the role I'm in.
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  And this might give away things a little later in in the summer,
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  but. Scott's leaving us.
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  No, I'm not. I mean, not that I know of, you
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  know, you think of a pastor, right?
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  The the role of the pastor, and you would assume that person
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  who's filling that role has the gift of What do you think?
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  Preaching Counseling. Pastoring.
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  Pastor Shepherd. Right like that.
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  That's one of the the gifts that is listed in the New Testament
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  in one place. In Ephesians 4, Paul is writing
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  and he talks about how God has given apostles and prophets and
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  evangelists and teachers and shepherds to the church to build
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  them up. So you would assume, well then
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  that, you know, it would make sense, right, That every pastor,
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  one of their primary gifts would be pastoring.
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  But I don't, I don't think that's one of mine.
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  And do I operate in some of those same areas and do some of
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  those things because of the role I'm in?
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  Absolutely. And even some just because of
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  the personality that I have, you know, I've, I've always been a
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  pretty good listener before I was ever a pastor.
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  And so working that through with Jesus and coming to a point
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  where I could hear him say that's not your gift and that's
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  OK, you know, stop measuring yourself against other pastors
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  who that is their gift. He said, I have other things for
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  you to do. And so stop feeling guilty that
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  that's not your gift. I don't know if I have a third
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  one that comes right to my mind, but that that's that's two that
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  are pretty. Yeah.
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  So. I'm I'm going to push us forward
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  into the sermon series. And this Sunday I wasn't there.
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  I heard horrible things from the slide people.
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  Yeah, from my son Tim, who looked at the slides and said,
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  Dad, what are you doing? He's like, never again should we
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  do, but he's going to keep doing it.
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  It's like I had to keep up with all these slides and oh, that's,
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  that was the first thing I heard.
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  I was like, oh, now I got to listen to this sermon to find
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  out if if the slides really lived up to the reputation.
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  But no, I got to visit my home church, share about sponsored
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  children's project that I run. And it was very holy.
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  It was very nice to just be home.
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  And that was just a flood of hugs afterwards.
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  Like everyone was trying to talk to me and I was like, oh, I need
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  3 hugs. OK, let's next sentence up.
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  Another couple hugs. And, you know, seeing all the
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  people, seeing all the kids grow up that were.
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  Rebecca, the boys go with you. Yeah.
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  Yeah, they got to. Go with SO.
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  That was helpful because then they could get hugs while I'm
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  getting these hugs and slowed the process down and there's new
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  faces there, which was beautiful to see as well and to see our,
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  our brother Mike just do an incredible job past during my my
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  home church. And so it was really nice,
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  really holy, and God worked it out that it was possible.
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  And so many people were like, thank your pastor that he let
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  you go and. You're welcome.
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  Stuff and so yeah, it was really beautiful.
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  But here as I as I rewatched the service feel like you touched on
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  a lot of things that might be new to people.
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  You've touched on it before in a sermon last year the concept
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  couple of them, but I'm interested if if listeners could
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  could leave comments or reach out to us about how
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  uncomfortable or wary about the the concept that Scott has
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  brought up of Jesus not working out of his divinity.
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  Yeah, during his ministry because the the wrestling within
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  the early Church of who Christ was, what was his nature like
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  you'd like you talked about 50% human, 50% God.
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  Is he all God but with the human skin suit is he, you know, human
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  and slowly became like God over time.
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  There's kind of all these things, but then it's been
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  decided 100% human, 100% God. But then when you enter into
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  this concept of Jesus not working out of his divinity and
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  we have scripture right? Humbled himself did not count
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  it, you know. Did nothing of himself but what
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  the Father did. It can seem like more 100%
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  human. And a little.
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  Bit of God, we know that He's God and we're more focused on
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  his humanity than his divinity. Can you share a little bit about
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  how you wrestled with this? Because I know this wasn't like
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  what they taught you in seminary, this concept.
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  It's not that they were opposed to this conception seminary, but
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  this concept yet didn't come from your schooling, but more in
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  recent time. So how did you encounter it,
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  wrestle with it and grow in confidence?
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  I think the idea of it was, was planted in that cohort session
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  last June and, and got my wheels spinning and got me reading not
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  just John's stuff, but other people's stuff.
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  And, you know, kind of trying to discern is this because it felt
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  like a light bulb came on to me for me when I was at that
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  session. Because up to that point, like
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  we had been focusing here a lot about spiritual disciplines,
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  practices and those kind of things.
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  And even as I was leading us into and through some of that
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  stuff, I was always felt like it was like A and then what, Like
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  it's good. We want to be intimate with
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  Jesus. We want to, we want to know God.
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  We want to walk with him, but it always kind of felt me left me
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  feeling like there was something missing.
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  And and when John started talking about, you know,
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  encountering God in the disciplines and being empowered
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  by the spirit, I was like, Oh my gosh, yes, like this is this,
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  this is what's next. This is the the other half of
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  that equation. And so then to begin to work it
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  through myself to to read through the Gospels as we were
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  going through them in the fall and to look and see like, OK,
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  what do I do? I actually see this playing out
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  the way it's been talked about. And then I started hearing it
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  the same similar concepts coming out, all kinds of different
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  things. Like listen to a podcast episode
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  with the current president of the seminary I attended talking
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  to a couple of the faculty members and they start talking
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  in very similar language. Like, how come I didn't hear
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  this then? And, and, and maybe I wasn't
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  open to it. Maybe I wasn't ready.
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  Maybe they weren't talking about that way.
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  And so it's been confirmed in several other contexts over
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  these last, you know, 9 or 10 months.
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  And I've felt, which is always a little danger.
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  You don't want to base it, but just I felt the truth of it and
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  the the fruit of it in my own life of seeing, seeing how then
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  we can actually tell people to follow Jesus and not kind of
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  feel like we were saying it with fingers crossed behind our back
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  or, you know, a caveat of well, follow Jesus, but only this far.
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  Yeah, because when we look, when we look at the Gospels, some
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  people try to argue that Jesus said he didn't say that he was
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  God and it was tomfoolery, right?
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  He definitely did. But when you when you look at
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  the actions he does, he doesn't say from my divinity or because
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  I am God, I forgive your sins, I right whatever or I'm healing
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  you because I am divine or or whatever.
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  That's never laid out. What we look at is his extremely
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  close relationship with the father.
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  And I think the like hairline difference is that we can have a
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  very close relationship with the father as well.
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  Adopted into the family. We are also sons, which makes us
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  siblings with Jesus, which is a whole other thing to wrap our
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  minds around. And then as you talked about,
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  sends the helper, the advocate, the the Holy Spirit that lives
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  and dwells within us. So we have relationship with the
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  Trinity, but we are not a part of the Trinity ourselves.
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  And so that's where that hairline difference of yes, we
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  have access to all of these things that Jesus did, though we
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  are not a part of that triune relationship itself.
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  It's like family friends, right? We're we're not a part of the
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  family, but we're really close. We might even be at the house
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  all the time or whatever. Very close relationship.
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  But that doesn't mean that we are like, I don't know, a dot
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  like the difference between being adopted and living in the
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  home. Maybe not family friends adopted
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  into the family. But we're not blood, right?
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  Yeah, but there is still that short division.
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  Yeah, and I think in Jesus's self limiting in this, in God,
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  the Son's self limiting to come and take on our humanity, right.
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  He didn't cease to be God. He didn't give up being God.
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  He didn't empty himself, even though that's how some of the
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  translations put it, right? I think the old NIV said he
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  emptied himself, you know, but now it says he, he made himself
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  nothing. I, I think it's that concept of
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  self limiting, like he chose in order to become human.
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  There were limits on how he could express that godness,
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  right? Because you know, it's, it's
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  pretty clear if you read the Gospels that Jesus was not
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  omnipresent, right? We, we talk about one of the,
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  the divine attributes of God is that he is omnipresent.
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  He's everywhere, everywhere. He's everywhere he wants to be.
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  And so Jesus in his humanity is limited by place, by time,
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  right? We, we talk about God being
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  outside of time because he created time.
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  And so he kind of, he can see the end from the beginning, one
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  of the prophets says, but Jesus didn't he, he grew, right?
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  He had to go through life. He was born and lived on earth
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  for 33 years and had to deal with all the stuff of, of
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  learning and growing. Luke tells us in that one little
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  story where Jesus, where Jesus and Mary and Joseph, they go
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  down to the temple for the feast and they start going back and
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  Jesus stays behind, kind of wanders off, ends up in the
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  temple At the end of that story, which if you look at what the
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  the teachers in this temple say, they don't say, wow, look at the
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  authority he has. It doesn't look.
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  They don't even say look at all the wisdom he has.
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  They say he really knows scripture, right?
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  And we can really know scripture too, right?
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  Like, so it wasn't like an expression of, oh, wow, there's
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  something superhuman about this kid.
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  It's just we don't see kids like this often.
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  Maybe you ought to enroll him in Torah school.
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  You know, like, they're trying to recruit him to become one of
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  their apprentices. But then Luke says, and Jesus
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  grew in wisdom, the God who knows everything, the God who's
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  omniscient grew in wisdom. Well, OK, so there's some self
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  limiting that's happened here. And he grew in stature, right?
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  He actually physically grew up as young boys do, and he grew in
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  favor with God. That's an interesting one to me,
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  right? God grew in favor with God.
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  He liked himself more, but like. So I'm not really sure what to
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  do with that one, except for the idea that in his humanity and
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  his choice to become human, to be Incarnate in the world, God
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  the Son chose to limit himself and not hold on to all that was
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  rightfully his as God, so that he could be human, truly human.
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  That's a lot to chew on and I don't think my pivot will make
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  much sense at first. OK.
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  Do you think Jesus got sunburnt? Yep.
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  Well, I mean as much as any Jewish person at that point in
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  time who spent a whole lot more time.
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  Oh yeah. We're not talking like Ginger
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  Sunburnt, right? Right.
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  But like. Like at the end of the winter as
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  they start spending more time outside.
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  Did he get a sunburden sometime? Yeah.
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  Yeah, 'cause I'm thinking of just within the ultimate holy
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  level of humbling oneself from who God fully is to the
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  restrictions of a human body. There are caveats that come with
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  that. If you are working, even if you
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  are right, it's not a sin. So it's not like Jesus sin to
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  get a sunburn thought that he wasn't perfectly taking care of
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  his body that he was stewarded with by.
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  It hurt when his teeth came in. Getting like unburned.
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  That's just because that's part of the human experience he
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  entered into on this side of the fall.
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  Now I'm just imagining a red Jesus with aloe being rubbed on
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  him by Mary and be like I'm so sorry.
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  But like, but I mean, let's let's not forget Jesus wasn't
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  white. He was.
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  I know he. Was already brown, so I know.
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  I know, and I doubt that aloe was even common in that area.
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  I don't know where aloe grows, that's just.
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  The picture. Yeah, as I've been learning
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  about sunburns the past few years, being with my in laws,
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  that's, that's what I've picked up.
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  I really I I rarely got summer as a kid.
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  Well, and that's what I'm saying.
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  Like, I don't know that you just actually did.
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  Yeah, yeah, but, but, but he would, you know, they were in a
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  culture where you're outdoors and in the sun way more like me.
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  I as a kid is like, couple hours Max at the beach where, you
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  know, Rebecca's family is like, let's sit on the beach for six
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  hours. And it's like, why?
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  But I digress. Yeah.
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  I think there's a lot to chew on and I'm looking forward to the
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  rest of the series because I feel like some of what you
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  touched on today we'll be hearing again and it being a
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  little more thorough. Yeah.
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  And if you're interested, you can go back and listen to the
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  sermon from the Fall from the Gospel series, the one on Jesus
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  baptism, that one specifically, and the one on I think it was
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  John 14, John 5. Somewhere in those couple that
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  we did on John where I talk about Jesus doing even, or he's
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  saying that we would do even greater things and all that kind
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  of stuff. And so started to develop those
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  ideas, introduce those ideas a little bit there, knowing that
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  we'd get here at some point, but not quite knowing when.
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  As we're chewing on this as a community and podcast, as a
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  church individually, I think just pausing being open to what
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  God wants to reveal to us in this time and just doing very,
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  very simple old prayer of come Holy Spirit, come and just sit
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  with that and see what he does. Because I've heard incredible
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  testimonies of something that simple leading to incredible
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  things. Well, that's our conversation
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  for today, but that doesn't mean the conversation is over.
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  We'd love to hear your thoughts on these topics as well.
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  To ask a question about anything we've discussed in this episode
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  or to join the conversation, you can head over to
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  fumccollingswood.org/podcast. Thanks for being part of this
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  conversation.