Latest / The Dr Louise Newson Podcast / 299 - Perimenopause and mental health in prison: Lisa’s story

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299 - Perimenopause and mental health in prison: Lisa’s story · The Dr Louise Newson Podcast

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Hello, I'm Doctor Louise Newson, I'm AGP and menopause specialist
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and I'm also the founder of the Newson Health Menopause and
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well-being Centre here in Stratford upon Avon.
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I'm also the founder of the Free Balance app.
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Each week on my podcast, join me and my special guests where we
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discuss all things perimenopause and menopause.
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We talk about the latest research bus myths on menopause.
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Symptoms and treatments. And often share moving and
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always inspirational personal stories.
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This podcast is brought to you by the Newsome Health Group,
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which has clinics across the UK dedicated to providing
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individualised perimenopause and menopause care for all women.
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So today on the podcast, I've got the most incredible person
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with the most amazing and very inspirational but also very sad
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and frustrating story with me today.
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So someone called Lisa who actually came to one of our
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events and shared her story. And my staff said, Oh my
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goodness me, you've got to talk to Lisa.
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And so I on a Saturday morning, I spoke to Lisa and said,
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please, can you come and Share your story on the podcast?
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It's going to be a hard listen, but it's a really important
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story, so welcome, Lisa. Hi, thank you Louise for having
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me today. So it's a long story, so we're
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going to try and keep it as brief as possible so we can get
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as much information out. So if you just don't mind just
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by starting Lisa, how old are you?
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I'm 54 now, nearly 55, OK. So we're similar ages and you've
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got, yes, two sons. I have 22 and 24.
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So tell me about things before it came to the bigger story, how
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your sort of health was and how you were and whether you knew
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much about the sort of perimenopause and menopause.
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I had sort of recent knowing my age, I had researched about the
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perimenopause and the menopause and obviously I just did
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actually visit the GP with my concerns that I might be around
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that age and was also struggling at the time.
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I'd just lost my mum and there was a couple of events going on
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in the background, but I visited the GP twice.
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One was five months before what's happened in this incident
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and I did request HRT. Then six weeks before my
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incident of what the story is about today, I did visit the GP
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once again and it was just put down.
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I would just say I was struggling and they took me off
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the contraceptive pill and still wouldn't put me on HRTI just had
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a lot of brain fog. I was the one who did the
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research first around my age and they just totally overlooked it
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and put me on antidepressants. So for low mood.
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And as we know, the role of hormones, in fact all our
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hormones for estrogen, testosterone and progesterone
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can have really beneficial effects in our brain.
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And the more we'd look at symptoms, the more we understand
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that obviously hot flashes and sweats can occur.
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But the commonest symptoms affecting people that we hear in
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the clinic we see on the Balance app, where we've had thousands
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of people reporting their symptom, is a brain fog, the
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anxiety, the low mood, the memory problems, that poor
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sleep. And we know that for many women,
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it's really important. Yeah.
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And, you know, our hormones work as neurotransmitters, and they
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can affect all sorts of pathways.
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And antidepressants can help, of course, with people who are
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clinically depressed. And they help serotonin levels
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mainly. They can help in other ways, but
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also estrogen and testosterone can help serotonin levels, but
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they also help dopamine, and they also help various parts of
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our brain to light up. So we're more likely to
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remember, more likely to have pleasure, more likely to sleep,
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just feel connected with life and our thoughts and our actions
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as well, Yes. So then what happened?
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You explained it quite well. You do feel quite disconnected.
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You feel like you know you're not being heard.
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So six weeks prior to what happened was I did go to the GP
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and obviously covered on struggling not aware myself.
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And two weeks before Christmas my son became I'll and I just
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had this extreme anxiety off the scale.
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I cannot explain. And I've always been a bit of a
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natural warrior, but I just knew this was something I was just
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living in daily fear of everything and my mind was
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overthinking. I started to work in palliative
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care, which was extremely distressing seeing the sights
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that I was seeing. So I was putting it down to
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events in life, but I was just so emotional, couldn't stop
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crying and total brain fog. You just feel like you're in a
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constant hangover state. You can't explain it to anyone
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and you just feel completely different out of sorts, you
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know? So then what happened?
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So in between Christmas and New Year something's just clicked.
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I don't know what happened as beat myself up every day, how
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I've got to this point. But suddenly I was researching
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about my son's illness and then there was some searches down in
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Google on the next rows down about peaceful way out and
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little didn't know. I had sort of started with
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suicidal thoughts, not wanting to die or anything or but I just
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couldn't see just got ended up in the darkest place that I can
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imagine just thinking it was offence and you feel different
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and you just want the anxiety to end.
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And I think it's this irrational fear.
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Every day I could feel myself, my mental health declining.
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I was looking after everybody and that's work and at home.
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But what I didn't realise was my own mental health was declining
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and just trying to cope. But I've just felt incredibly
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disconnected in fear of everything.
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So I just couldn't see a way out of everything.
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And then the suicidal thoughts started to occur and then I
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actually contemplated suicide but I couldn't leave the boys
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behind and I knew my son was struggling at the time.
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Two weeks before Christmas I could feel myself declining even
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more with my son was poorly. So this overthinking just
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happened even more. I was going into bed
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overthinking and just really intrusive suicidal thoughts
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which I've never had. I couldn't see a way out for all
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of us. I actually thought I was
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protecting us all with this rational thoughts process that
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has never been like this at all. And I did actually try to take
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my own life and my two boys. And that's I'm totally
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mortified, ashamed, horrified. I ended up getting arrested and
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ended up in prison for almost three years.
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And it wasn't until I ended up in prison, I didn't even know
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then. And all I was doing was beating
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myself up every day wondering how have I got to this point.
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I'm in total Shock, Trauma, disbelief.
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And it was only when I started to see the TV in prison and ever
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so coincidentally, the timing of Davina McCall starting to raise
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awareness, it all started to click into place.
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And I thought, Oh my goodness, you know, this is exactly how I
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felt of all the other ladies. I had books sent into prison.
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Everyone's saying it sounds like you've on the menopause.
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I had no resources to research any of this in prison.
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So I had books sent in. And this is when I started to
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realize the symptoms that other ladies and mainly celebrities
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were talking about were exactly the same feelings out on that
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hand. And it was just that turning
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point. And then I found out the ages of
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50, around this age is the highest rate of suicide in
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women. And I just crying when I read
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that. And I thought, I'm in prison.
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Nobody's listening to me. Yeah, I mean, there's one thing
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about the psychological impact of the menopause is something
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else thinking about suicidal thoughts or feeling very like
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you will do want to end your life.
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And I didn't realise how common it was until I exposed myself to
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so many patients and so many women.
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And also when I did psychiatry many years ago, I never was
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taught that any of these feelings could be related to
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hormones. And it's only because giving
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hormones back to people and seeing the transformational
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difference to their brains, to their thoughts, to their
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intrusive thoughts, their dark thoughts, knowing it's not just
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a placebo, it's actually having a really important physiological
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effect in people's brains. So you were in prison.
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And I know in prison it can be very hard to access the right
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medical house, but you managed to see a doctor, didn't you, in
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prison? I did, yes.
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And they prescribed your HRT, didn't they?
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What happened? Yes they did.
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I was prescribed HRT eventually, and within not even two weeks,
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it was just like a switch turning on and I'm in the worst
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environment, the worst situation, not knowing what
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someone's going to receive as a sentence.
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But all of a sudden I had this urge to fight.
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I had more energy, less brain fog.
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I still wasn't sleeping in prison because it's so difficult
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to sleep. You're sharing rooms, there's no
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privacy. But all of a sudden I just had
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this massive determination that I wanted to live, I wanted to
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fight, but I was still suffering in silence.
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I was invisible. Nobody would understand.
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I was trying to convince, you know, my solicitor, barrister,
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all male solicitor, male judge, male barrister.
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And it was brought up in the I had to have a psychological
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assessment for the case and even they had mentioned menopause,
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but this was not mentioned in court.
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So did you have your sentence reduced at all?
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Only because they said to me if I pled guilty, they would
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consider less time and I would know I'd find out sooner.
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And to be honest, this state was in, I was in such shock.
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They said I could go to trial, but I'm just knew I wasn't up to
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that. So I did go down the route of
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pleading guilty. I was completely honest when I
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did get arrested, that just, and I thought I was protecting us
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all. And you know, I didn't feel
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right at all. But none of this was taken into
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consideration. I was actually initially told it
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was an 8 year sentence, then it was down to five years, four
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months due to the guilty plea. But even then I was absolutely
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devastated. I was hoping I might get care in
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the community that people might realise that it was a menopausal
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and hormonal issue, which in turn also goes to the mental
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health side that's been brought on or exacerbated by the
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menopause. It's the fact it's the
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perimenopause as well as the fact you don't because you're
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still having periods. You think you're not on the
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menopause? Yeah, absolutely.
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And and you were in more than one prison as well, weren't you?
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Yes, Yeah. So you just transferred 5
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minutes notice. Stars.
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So one minute I'm in one prison in Cheshire, then I'm given 5
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minutes notice. You go into another prison in
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Staffordshire. Then I did open prison for four
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months in York. I came out of prison and had to
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go to a female hostel and I had to do that for three months
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whether I wanted to or not in Liverpool, nowhere near home
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again. And just the mental, it is the
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worst environment and the way you treat it is the worst
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treatment for any kind of mental health, menopause.
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And it's just, you cannot, you just feel invisible.
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It feels so archaic in this day and age as well.
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It's quite something I've as some people listening and you
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know, I'd worked in style prison and women's prison many years
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ago actually in 2000. I did a week's.
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Work and I've still got my notes there from when I used to admit
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people that came in. But the stories women told me
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and it was very different. I've watched.
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I love Louis Theroux and I've watched a lot of his
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documentaries about prisons, but it's been in male prisons and
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male prisons are very different. The crimes that they commit are
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very different. The way that they've lived their
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lives have been quite different. Whereas the women who I met, and
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I'm sure you met a lot, were quite, almost naive, very
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vulnerable, lots of mental health issues.
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And also a lot of them had been abused in the past and felt they
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deserved the life that they lived.
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They couldn't see a way out. And the more work I've done now
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about mental health and hormones, the more I've read not
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just about perimenopause but also about PMSPMDD.
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Women are more likely to commit a crime in the days before their
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periods, and that's because our hormone levels are lowest then.
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And someone called Catriona Dalton wrote about this many,
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many years ago. She actually was a incredible
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doctor that no one listened to. And she went to my old school as
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well. Sadly, she's died now, but she
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writes about going to trials, listening to women and knowing
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that it was related to their hormones.
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And everyone just thought she was being ridiculous.
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And she was ridiculed, really. And she wrote some amazing
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academic papers about this, but people just still laughed about
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her. And she was giving not just
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estrogen, but quite high doses of progesterone, especially to
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women with PMS and PMDD with transformational results.
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But again, people didn't like it.
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They didn't like what she was doing.
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But it's all there, actually. And we also know that if people,
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you know, are addicted to certain drugs, especially Class
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A drugs, more likely to switch off their ovaries, more likely
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to have lower hormone levels. A lot of these people have very
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poor diets. If they don't eat well, then
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again, their periods are likely to go off if they've got sort of
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just a chronic illness. And also a lot of the
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antidepressants and some of the antipsychotic medication that
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are often prescribed for the mental health issues will switch
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off our own hormones. And so I'm sure most women in
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prison will have some hormonal issue which is not being
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addressed at all. And I'm so keen to try and help
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educate people. But also a lot of people that
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work in prisons will be of menopausal age, as they are in
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other areas of work. And the people that work in
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prison, it's a hard, really hard job.
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It's a relentless job. They're trying to do the best
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they can with very limited resources, with people in very
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difficult situations as well. And so to be perimenopausal or
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hormonal or menopausal when you work in a prison.
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It's. Very difficult, but they're a
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forgotten group of people actually.
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And most of the time and as you say, you know, you put you away,
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that's it. But you're very eloquent, the
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way you talk. You're not someone who's ever
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committed a crime in the past. You know, you love your
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children. It's very irrational what you
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did. And I feel that it's really sad
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that so many systems had let you down.
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But I not been able to think what's the reason?
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Was there something else? And I know since you've come out
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of prison, you've had your HRT optimized a bit more.
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So you've got on the right dose and type of estrogen, you've on
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some testosterone and your brain is feeling different to how it
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was before, isn't it? Totally.
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I mean, I was pleased I didn't have a choice of which HRT I
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went on in prison, obviously. So I was put on a basic, you
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know, treatments, but there was still a massive difference.
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And it was that realization to me as well that you just can't
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explain it to be honest. You know, when I was put on the
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HRT, you cannot explain to anyone how the clarity start
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feeling. The brain fog has gone, but it's
16:00
this intrusive thoughts have gone and the anxiety has gone.
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And I'm in the worst, most intimidating situation and the
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worst hell on earth situation. And then when I came to consult
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your clinic and was placed on the latest treatment again as a
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massive improvement again, I'm now sleeping better, just full
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of energy, just back to my normal probably self how I was
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probably a good four years ago, even before prison.
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You don't realize the decline that you're going under due to
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lack of estrogen and, and how it does.
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You don't even know your own body.
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And it's frightening, really can't be frightening, how I look
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back. Yeah, absolutely.
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And I think the problem is we've all spoken about the menopause
16:48
related to periods and so everyone is fixated on periods.
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And when I was working with NHS England, their national
16:55
menopause programme, somebody who was leading it said to me,
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we've spent hours discussing about periods, whether it should
17:02
be, are they changing in frequency or are they changing
17:06
in pattern or are they changing in the amount of bleeding?
17:10
And I said, but do you know what?
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It doesn't really matter. And he said, well actually
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you're telling me that women don't know about their periods
17:17
enough, so how do they know about their symptoms?
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I said because a lot of us have a period, it comes and goes.
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We don't mark it in our Diaries, we're not bothered about it.
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But what we are bothered about is the way our brains work, the
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way our bodies work, the way we're changing.
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So we need to get away from just thinking about periods.
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Women should not be defined about their periods, and a lot
17:37
of women don't have periods or they might have unnatural
17:40
periods if they're on contraception.
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So what we should really be thinking about is about our
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hormones and the roles that they have in our bodies, regardless
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of when our ovaries actually finally stop working as in the
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menopause. So it's that sort of decline and
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change before. And we know with suicide rates,
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actually, they increase around 7 times in women in their late
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40s. And there's a lot to make us
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believe that actually it's worse in the perimenopause or it's
18:07
worse when hormone levels are changing because our brains like
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homeostasis, they like everything the same.
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So that's why, you know, our bodies are better if we sleep
18:16
the same, if we eat at the same time, if we don't abuse our
18:21
brains, as in if we, you know, drink alcohol, we feel dreadful
18:25
the next morning because our brain doesn't like any sort of
18:28
metabolic change occurring in our body.
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But we know in the perimenopause, our hormone
18:33
levels fluctuate. They go up and they go down
18:35
quite quickly sometimes. And so that change can really
18:40
trigger a lot. So a lot of people once they're
18:42
menopausal and they've got very low levels and they last
18:45
forever, very low actually, their mental health might be
18:48
affected, but not to the way that you're describing as you
18:51
were before. And so we're, as you know, we're
18:54
funding APHD student from Liverpool looking into suicide
18:57
prevention in the perimenopause and menopause.
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And she's been interviewing quite a few of our patients
19:02
actually, and really getting to understand more because we need
19:06
to have ways of being more aware, not just as healthcare
19:10
professionals, but actually for women and their families and
19:14
friends to understand so we can recognise it in others as well.
19:18
That's right, it affects everybody surrounding yourself
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mean right you said. I didn't even have problems with
19:24
my periods ever. So I only went to the doctors
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thinking I'm around the same age.
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And even when I researched it on the Internet at the time, there
19:31
was nothing about suicidal thoughts.
19:33
You just see the physical symptoms online at the time.
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But it only seems now since I've, I've come out of prison
19:40
and I've started to do my own research that now due to lovely,
19:43
thankfully people like yourself and other celebrities at the
19:47
moment, raising the awareness. I think the research is now
19:50
coming out more. So I'm going, you know,
19:53
informing women about the mental health side.
19:55
But I still think you don't realise until you're going
19:58
through it how important hormones are.
20:01
Yeah. You just feel this way.
20:02
You feel totally disconnected. Yeah.
20:05
And so many people, including myself, it's not until we've got
20:08
our hormones, rebalance the right dose and type for us that
20:11
we look back and think, goodness, no wonder things are
20:14
so. Hard or and then you stop trying
20:16
to tie everything in the gun. Yes.
20:18
And obviously, you know, you've got a son that was poorly,
20:21
you've had things going on and you always you always what
20:24
people contributed to other reasons.
20:26
I say, well, I'm going to feel like that because I've had a
20:28
difficult time or because of this or because of that.
20:31
But actually we're all bad as women, we're not all, but lots
20:35
of us are that we don't reflect and internalise ourself.
20:38
And I think the other message is if we don't get the right
20:42
healthcare advice, treatment from the first healthcare
20:45
professional we see, it's really important to try.
20:48
And it's difficult, I understand, to be the best
20:52
advocate. So you can go back and ask.
20:54
And, you know, I think that's the same with any treatment.
20:57
You know, if you refuse the treatment that you think is
20:59
right for you, it's OK to say, could you just give me a reason
21:03
why you're refusing it? Can you just tell me why I can't
21:07
have XY and Z? And that's not just for HRT,
21:09
that's for anything. You know, if I had an infection
21:13
on my arm and the doctor said you can't have antibiotics and I
21:17
thought I needed them, I would like to challenge that in a
21:20
nice, positive way. And that's the same, I think,
21:22
with HRT and also testosterone. You know, we need to be thinking
21:26
as women, why aren't we allowed all right, hormones back.
21:29
Well, you do trust the doctors too much.
21:32
You do trust that they know what they're talking about and you
21:34
are putting your life in their hands.
21:36
And this is how you know I took them advice.
21:39
And but I do, I know now if I'd have been put on HRT before
21:44
this, and no, I would not have ended up in this situation for
21:49
definite. And if that's what's so
21:51
obsessing, this could have all been so prevented.
21:54
It's not just myself who's suffered, my whole family, my
21:57
friends, they said it's so out of character, you know, I was so
22:00
bubbly and caring, absolutely dosed on my boys, did everything
22:04
for them. They said they felt like mum had
22:07
died when I'd gone into prison and you know, they've had three
22:10
years of not being able to see me.
22:12
We also went into COVID lockdown when I was in prison, so some
22:16
double lockdown, couldn't see any friends or family and then
22:19
caught COVID in prison as well. So I thought I'm going to die in
22:22
prison. It was terrifying.
22:24
I'm not an aggressive person and you're put in with a lot of very
22:28
aggressive women, unfortunately. And you know, with really very
22:33
serious crimes, you know, mine was as well.
22:36
But it's just you just cannot get your head around.
22:39
How am I in this situation so horrific?
22:42
Well, obviously it's horrendous and I can't, and I don't think
22:47
many people listening can really, really imagine what
22:49
you've been through, Lisa. But what I'm incredibly grateful
22:52
for is that you've been strong enough and brave enough to Share
22:56
your story. And what I don't want to do in
22:58
this podcast is say that every perimenopausal woman is going to
23:02
think about committing a crime or end up in prison.
23:05
Of course not. But there are women who are not
23:07
being listened to. Exactly.
23:09
Who? We should be thinking more about
23:11
how to help people in different ways and also how to address
23:16
this inequality of care in prisons and to improve education
23:20
about hormones in prisons. As well, No, it's often I think
23:23
it's also the NHS as well though, because really they
23:26
should have picked up that it wasn't the usual.
23:28
And I know it's a unique, terrible, have a fit crime, but
23:31
really, you know, I think maybe I should have had hospital care
23:35
at the time or trying to get to the root of what has sent
23:38
somebody to this extent when, you know, there was no thought
23:41
gone into it at all. You just suddenly, you know,
23:44
you're just sent to prison. And I think there's so snowed
23:46
under these health practices that there's not the correct
23:49
process. They're either in place to
23:51
distinguish, you know, whether somebody should be having care
23:56
in the community or hospital care or whether they should go
24:00
to prison. There's no distinction at all.
24:02
So. There's a lot we need to do, a
24:03
lot we need to change and I really hope us all working
24:06
together can hopefully make a difference.
24:09
But before we end, Lisa, I'd really like to just ask you 3
24:12
take home tips. So really three things that you
24:14
think me, you, us, people listening could do to help the
24:19
community of people in prisons, including those working in
24:23
prisons. What three things do you think
24:25
would make the biggest difference?
24:26
More information for definitely more awareness people, not just
24:30
going off the awareness side of hot flushes.
24:34
You know, I think there's so many women suffering in silence,
24:37
not knowing, and you'd feel like you're going mad.
24:40
You really do. They need to be more explicit
24:43
with that information. I think also that doesn't need
24:46
to be a lot more research of looking at someone's age in
24:51
relation to how they're feeling and not just taking like you
24:55
said, the 1st answer from the doctor.
24:58
If they're saying you know you're fine or you know you
25:00
don't need HRT, try and get a second opinion and fight for it.
25:05
I was too soft. Again, just research it yourself
25:09
more to be honest. I think a massive point was for
25:13
me, a turning point was Davina Mccall's Sets, Myths and
25:17
Menopause documentary that was totally, this isn't the other
25:21
reason I thought, Oh my God, this is what's happened to me.
25:23
And she's stated everything in the documentary how women aren't
25:27
getting diagnosed, they're not being treated.
25:30
So there's a lot we need to do. We need to educate people, we
25:34
need to allow people to be advocates of themselves, and we
25:38
really need to just learn and talk and share.
25:41
And it's been brilliant having you today and I'm again, really,
25:45
really grateful for your time. Fine.
25:46
Thank you. It's OK, I'm doing it to save,
25:50
but they're women's lives because it's only when I came
25:52
out of prison that I realised and I started to have the
25:55
resources, the Internet and everything to do my own research
25:58
and realise how many women have committed suicide.
26:01
And it's about raising awareness.
26:03
If I can save one or two lives, it is horrific.
26:07
I'm totally mortified having to share the story.
26:09
I'm so ashamed. But I do realise now I have.
26:12
It helps to know it was what the cause was, was down to hormones.
26:17
I've been treated on the correct medication.
26:18
If I can help other women now, that would be worthwhile, you
26:22
know, going forward. And I am here to help raise
26:25
awareness now and work with people.
26:28
You're the first person I've shared this story with because I
26:31
trust you so much and you're you're the only one who really
26:34
understands apart from Davina McCaul on a such documentary.
26:38
And I can't thank you enough for all the but you're doing.
26:41
Thanks, Lisa. So thank you.
26:48
You can find out more about Newson Health Group by visiting
26:51
www.newsonhealth.co.uk and you can download the free Balance
26:58
app on the App Store. Or Google Play.