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Ms. Marvel: Call me Death-Bird! Featuring Andrew Wheeler and Daniel Wilson! · Graymalkin Lane the podcast

• 0:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Hey everybody, welcome back to the great Vulcan Lane podcast where queer friends and allies gather to review and discuss the original X-Men comics in continuity order I'm here with two of my favorite nerds now both of these two are just meeting for the first time in less all great gay British people already know each other I'm not sure but
• 0:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew Wheeler and Daniel Wilson are both here with me.
• 0:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to have a great time today because it is Shear month on the show.
• 0:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are celebrating the character Eric the Red and we're going to work in the first two appearances of The incredible iconic X-Men villain Deathbird.
• 0:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: You guys have all heard me talk about my deep love for the character Soron
• 0:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: In my top five X-Men villains, Soron and Silver Samurai are both there, both of whom we've talked about on the show before.
• 0:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: The next one on the list is Death Bird.
• 0:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I fucking love this character, she's one of my top favorites.
• 0:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like her more than Mystique, I like her more than Sabre Tooth, I like her more than Mr. Sinister.
• 0:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's amazing.
• 1:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, I like those characters too, but deathbirds want to make top favorites.
• 1:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to write this character all day long.
• 1:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's amazing.
• 1:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me welcome Andrew Wheelier to the show first.
• 1:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: And my first question for you both is, have you ever met a bird that you're afraid of?
• 1:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: This could transition to like seeing a really scary bird in the wild or whatever your story you'd like to share.
• 1:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure.
• 1:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Uh, yes.
• 1:22
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, I'm Andrew Wheeler, uh, he, they pronouns.
• 1:26
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm a writer of comics and Dungeons and Dragons stuff, including uh, my book Sins of the Black Flamingo image and my queer Catholic pseudo biography, a Mary at, uh, only press.
• 1:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, I went to university in, at York, uh, in the north of England, which is both a campus and a wildlife preserve, uh, where there are a lot of Canadian peace.
• 1:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: and Canadian geese, anyone who knows of them, knows that they are basically raptors.
• 1:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: They are, they are little dinosaurs roaming the hills and attacking anyone that comes to close.
• 2:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: And they are fearsome.
• 2:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And for some reason, I then moved to Canada where the Canadian geese, of course, are everywhere.
• 2:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, you have a type.
• 2:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have a type, learning nothing is my type.
• 2:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like that you worked in the Black Flamingo already because we're going to be talking about bird characters, but that's right.
• 2:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you welcome back to that?
• 2:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let me also welcome Daniel Wilson back to the show.
• 2:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel Delightful to see you.
• 2:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, it's like for to be back.
• 2:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm Daniel Wilson pronouns are he, um, bird trauma.
• 2:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, again, I live in the north of England.
• 2:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: So I've been to York.
• 2:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of test to the fact that those geese are.
• 2:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: savage and they just they they will be the death of a soul and civilisation as a whole and but the other one is I do currently live near a river and there's quite few swans there and they made the mistake of trying to hit me while I was walking past one day incredibly hungover with my dog and so there's people walking around that just see this random bloke with his dog shouting shut the fuck up geese no swans shut the fuck up swans at these swans which when it comes to sort of tempting fate it's quite high up there because swans will be vicious too and you can't kill them unless
• 3:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
• 3:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lastly, I'm Chad Anderson.
• 3:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: He him pronouns.
• 3:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have lots of bird stories.
• 3:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: I used to have parakeets and cockatiels when I was younger.
• 3:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like birds a lot.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're a lot.
• 3:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're really messy and they're a lot to take care of.
• 3:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: In fact, my oldest child wants to get parakeets.
• 3:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm like maybe when you turn 18 and I think I'm going to have to do it because I've been putting them off for years and they turn 18 and a month.
• 3:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see.
• 3:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyway, my husband would hate it.
• 3:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've seen birds in the wild a number of times.
• 3:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I spent a lot of time in northern Idaho, which is a beautiful land of all kinds of lakes.
• 3:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: And every fall there, the Kokami Saman will return to spawn and then die.
• 3:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: And like,
• 3:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know the right words to use like groups of bald eagles.
• 3:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what the proper term for a group of bald eagles is, but like dozens and dozens of bald eagles will fly up and nest in those trees and then feast on the salmon.
• 3:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So you could drive up to the lake and watch this equals soaring everywhere like fighting over fish in the air.
• 4:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tons of like osprey and falcons that will like swoop down in like grab salmon out of the water like a lot of really beautiful encounters with birds.
• 4:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think the most startled I've ever been and I haven't told this story at least once on this show before.
• 4:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: I lived in Seattle for a while and I was jogging on one of the islands like Vashon Island for those that are familiar in a kind of a remote area.
• 4:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I rounded a corner and there was this enormous jackrabbit like huge and long ears and an eagle sword down and grabbed the jackrabbit by the others.
• 4:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: and the jackrabbit was screaming like a human child as the eagle slowly because it was heavy the eagle slowly had to like get like it's way I thought disappear up into the trees and then the screaming stopped so I mean the nature can be a little savage and that's when I went reading about death bird that's almost the image that comes to me first uh so there's some there's some scary birds out there for sure um let's talk about the black flamingo just for a second address since we already introduced do you want to tell everybody about this book?
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
• 4:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: Black sins of the Black Bermingo is an occult or a noir that is deeply queer and very sexy in large part because the arches by Travis Moore and Tamara Bomvelin.
• 5:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: And so that's an incredible team for producing a book that is glamorous and has lots of beautiful men often taking their shirts off.
• 5:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: And it's about faith and identity and fear and this fallen world that we all live in.
• 5:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I'm stuck in Miami and it's gorgeous and I'm very proud of everybody should check it out.
• 5:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: I actually just ordered by copy haven't read it yet, but I plan to and all right, I did it to looking forward to enter out a whole bird book.
• 5:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: So let's talk about bird themed superheroes for just a minute.
• 5:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's way more than we think, both at Marvel and DC and all over the place.
• 5:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do we have a general sense of what we like about characters who have big, feathery wings?
• 5:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's all kinds of ways to amp them up or make them scary, but Daniels, you have thoughts about like, angel versus Hawkman in your comics.
• 6:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you enjoy this power set?
• 6:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: I do, Hawkman confuses me because I don't really understand what the crack is with him being like an alien or a fairer or like we're just going to gloss over that and he's just the man with wings and a hammer that were made sorry and he's an alien sometimes I don't know.
• 6:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but I quite like the powers that I think it's very sort of distinctive visually obviously we've got a lot of characters with wings, but I think it's always something that you can sort of you can pick them out of a crowd a little bit easier than say like, um,
• 6:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: You could always be like, well, that's angel because it's white wings, and that's equalous because it's red wings, you know, it's it's a quite like it.
• 6:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's an easy one.
• 6:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a sort of easy basic power set.
• 6:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't really need much descriptions.
• 6:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't need much explanation rather than descriptions.
• 6:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's it's just it's wings.
• 6:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there's a lot of interesting components to this.
• 6:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew just attended with me, the Retrida hosted New York City where we spent a whole day talking about like team silhouettes and the way that like super power super powers play out in images.
• 7:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: A character with wings like Angel really fills out a team silhouette really beautifully.
• 7:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: It gives you that character up in the air with like the beautiful like wings spread behind it.
• 7:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I think it's kind of a challenge to write these characters in comics as part of an ensemble because
• 7:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: there's other characters that can usually fly better and faster than they can and often it's kind of their only thing.
• 7:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think the writers need to think about like team strategy when the approaching characters like that and like the archa in the superiority is another example like people are like people complain that these characters are underpowered compared to others, but you want your big guys to go up against your big guy, you know, you want the Superman of
• 7:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: And you have the archer for precision, you have the winged character for sort of graceful movement.
• 7:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, they're much more maneuverable than someone like Cannonball should be.
• 8:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: They have the ability in old man's case, he has that mace, you know, flying down and flabbering someone with a mace, well, there's tremendous force in doing that.
• 8:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: And even though he has youth wings, he can sneak up on someone or he can change direction very quickly.
• 8:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: Angel, you know, clearly they decided he wasn't cool enough and they had to give him razor wings and all of that in the 90s.
• 8:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, but I think actually it's just how you write the character.
• 8:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think Warren Wervington can be a great addition to a team just based on his maneuverability.
• 8:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew, I had you on the show before we got to hang out in person obviously, but while we were in New York, we got to talk about JLQ, the Justice League queer team.
• 8:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: As far as I can tell, and I'm not a
• 8:47
  [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, the area only appears in the first appearance of the team, and then we were find a roster for the second appearance that was a little tighter than the initial appearance.
• 8:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the JLQ started as a joke, really, as to write a story for a DC Valentine's anthology.
• 9:07
  [SPEAKER_01]: and it was starring Akraman, the younger Akraman, formerly Akraman, and he was going on a date at a time parade, and because it was a Valentine's issue, I wanted to make it very deeply queer, but then they liked the pride elements, so much that they decided to move it to the pride special instead of the Valentine's special, which was not my intention, but there you go.
• 9:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: They felt a bit on the nose for a price special, but it was good to get to showcase all these queer characters in a story where the Extraño or Gregorio de la Vega teleports a bunch of heroes into the the climactic battle to save Aquaman Blackblads neck he introduced this team of all queer heroes as the JLQ it was just a joke a joke that I thought DC would cut but instead
• 9:58
  [SPEAKER_01]: So then it became part of the DC round Robin event, the first of the DC round.
• 10:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I think there were two pun intended, the round Robin.
• 10:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, right.
• 10:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and of course Robbins won the round Robin.
• 10:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: But for JLQ, as a concept, have the second most votes in the first round after Robbins, and I think had the most votes total, like in all subsequent rounds, but we didn't get to make the
• 10:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think there was just a little bit of nerves around the concept of jail cube and because it was introduced the round Robin started before the appearance in the pride anthology so there's a bit of a flipping of the order of things so a lot of people responded to jail queue as a concept negatively before they could know what the concept really was.
• 10:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: which was that it was a fun family team.
• 10:45
  [SPEAKER_01]: It was a team going out there and saving the queer heroes who, because queer heroes often get dropped into the margins of continuity, like extraño in self, like so many other characters.
• 10:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: I wanted a book that focused on bringing those characters back and putting mixing them back into the fall.
• 11:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately, jail queue, it did get one more appearance, but it is now become one of those queer concepts that has fallen into the margins.
• 11:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think one of my brothers just weren't ultimately.
• 11:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want a return and I think you should write it by friends.
• 11:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I agree.
• 11:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I say boot to them, boot to them for being college.
• 11:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I would love to.
• 11:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're not going to be comprehensive here, but I want to spend a little time talking about winged characters.
• 11:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we're going to jump over the Shiar.
• 11:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are a lot of winged characters in Marvel and DC history.
• 11:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm a Marvel kid, so I'm going to focus on Marvel.
• 11:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a, I have an episode out there on Red Raven, the Marvel 1940s hero, who once teamed up with Angel in a Silver Age X-Men comic book.
• 11:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: There are some of these characters that are woven as far back into World War II stuff, but I want to focus on a little bit of the modern era, and I'm going to toss several characters your way if you don't know these characters, just say pass.
• 11:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, who would win in a fight, Falcon or Nighthawk?
• 12:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I've just been reading Squadron Supreme as well.
• 12:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: I want to say Falcons, I don't like Nighthawk.
• 12:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: He's a dick.
• 12:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: Falcons all the way.
• 12:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: Come on Sam.
• 12:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew, Vulture versus Owl.
• 12:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I love Owl.
• 12:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's just a weird little guy.
• 12:20
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I think Vulture has the advantage just on name recognition alone.
• 12:25
  [SPEAKER_01]: People think Vulture is like
• 12:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just drew, uh, just, I just did the trial of the Vulture on Grimalk and Lane last July for those that have heard, and I have, uh, on the Marvel appendix, I maintain the profile on the owl, because I'm the Daredevil guy, and I love, I love both of these weirdos, uh, Daniel Harpie, which is, uh, the Bruce Banner's wife versus Griffin, who, we've been talking about the show all year, because he keeps showing up.
• 12:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to say, Harvey, because Griffin and I always mean, I love them.
• 12:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is, I'm literally just based on this on like vibes at this point.
• 13:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just vibes and nobody can stop me other than you, because it's your podcast.
• 13:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Um, but yeah, so, so no, Harvey, Harvey.
• 13:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: I really enjoyed her in Immortal Hulk when she turned up that.
• 13:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: I thought that was a really interesting take.
• 13:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, these next few are deep digs.
• 13:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Again, you can pass Andrew Perigrin versus Gmondor.
• 13:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, these are the both contested champions characters.
• 13:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: Heragrin is that French mutant guy with the work, and Condor is the Nova villain that's like the black man with the he's like from the sky island bird people.
• 13:33
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, I'm less familiar with Condor, most familiar with Paragrin.
• 13:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I'm an Englishman and Paragrin's a Frenchman, so I have to give it to Condor.
• 13:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: This has been the first incorrect answer, Condor would take Paragrin's ass.
• 13:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: But the deep rock secret of who would win is that it's whoever you decide that's the right fruit.
• 13:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It depends on the story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story story
• 14:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still angry for Cypher.
• 14:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still angry for Cypher.
• 14:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm still angry for Cypher.
• 14:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been how many years.
• 14:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: I don't see that.
• 14:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: See my breadbrain episode.
• 14:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I call him the Jar Jar Binks of the X-Men world.
• 14:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: Correct.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Correct.
• 14:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Jajah, good bye, bird brain.
• 14:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: You've been taken out on my phrase, bye.
• 14:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: Andrew, a partridge versus turkey.
• 14:34
  [SPEAKER_01]: I have to admit, I only know the buzz.
• 14:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: And I think a turkey would win in that fight.
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: You were correct.
• 14:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Neither of these are actual Marvel characters.
• 14:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: I just threw that one in front of me.
• 14:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was not all I'd say.
• 14:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say this seems like a made-up.
• 14:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, both.
• 14:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: are they not nearly the same bird like they strike me that they're just like lanky and necky aren't they?
• 14:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is this are these actual courage?
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah neither.
• 14:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is also through it is.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay.
• 14:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Harrell's soul.
• 15:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: But think of the potential.
• 15:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go with Heron.
• 15:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna go with Heron and only because they used to be like a nest of them near where I used to live in Durham Where I used to walk the dog there and they are terrifying.
• 15:11
  [SPEAKER_02]: They fly at you like they will swoop at you and then just like beat their wings and fly a little bit higher like Ha ha, maybe poo your pants.
• 15:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like, yeah, you're a giant bloody bird.
• 15:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, okay.
• 15:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I got I got two more for two more for each of you Andrew name or versus name or need a it's got to be name all because he's
• 15:28
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, shit.
• 15:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, you know, he has more experience than her.
• 15:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: And, uh, yeah, he invented for the lack of things.
• 15:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, beek versus Howard the Duck.
• 15:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Beek, beek.
• 15:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, but if you were going to be like, like, beek, if you were going to be hero enough to go against Magneto with a baseball bat, known that your power is to look like a baby chick with no feathers.
• 15:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: So like that, like, come on, like, how are the duck?
• 15:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: You've got this extra dimensional crap going on.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Right.
• 15:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love that for you.
• 15:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: What a journey of being on well done.
• 15:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: But beek, like, nerves of steel that
• 15:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: character, I adore him.
• 15:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: Andrew Bloodhawk versus Sauron.
• 16:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think we have to give it to Sauron.
• 16:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sauron is the people's princess.
• 16:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: You know, he's a real hero of among villains.
• 16:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: You heard here, Andrew Wheeler says that Sauron is the princess die of the X-Men.
• 16:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.
• 16:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and then last year, Daniel, this is a deep dig as well.
• 16:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to go to the amalgam universe.
• 16:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you remember when Marvel and DC combined, Sparrow, which is Jubilee and Robin mixed together, versus Angel Hawk, which is Angel and Hawk Mad mixed together.
• 16:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, so there's the answer with my brain, which is angel hawk because angel hawk bat.
• 16:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then there's the answer with my heart, which is Jubilee and Robin because I love Jubilee and which Robin was that was that Tim Drake?
• 16:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I don't know.
• 16:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're going to say it was Tim Drake because that feels about right for the era I think.
• 16:52
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it would have been because Jason Todd was well dead by then, like they phoned up and killed him.
• 16:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, I'm I'm going to go with Sparrow.
• 16:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to go with Sparrow and I don't care, come at me.
• 16:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there are a million bird-themed characters.
• 17:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I almost wanted to talk about like, tweety bird and like, roadrunner for a while.
• 17:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, we could go in lots of directions, but what's the general vibe we're creating when we recognize how prevalent this is in our comics?
• 17:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We love the idea of characters that can fly.
• 17:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think certainly with winged characters as well, you've got to sort of, I feel it'd be remiss to sort of be talking about winged characters and not bring up the obvious connotation of, you know, it hits that whole biblical angel thing, like I mean literally we have angel in the X-Men.
• 17:31
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's that obvious very sort of like almost like primal motif that will stick in people's heads where it's like
• 17:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: And again, not necessarily always true, but you could look at it and go, it's a good guy who's got angel wings.
• 17:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Or she's a good guy, she's got angel wings.
• 17:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, it's that sort of, it's almost like an immediate visual cue for like, must be a hero because they have wings.
• 17:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: But also, I know what that character's roughly going to be about at a glance.
• 17:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think, okay, so angel and Hawk, man, sort of define the two archetypes very much, because you can take a wings character in the sort of graceful, useful mode.
• 18:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: And then you can go in the more sort of parallel animalistic like a lot of wing characters are very violent characters including the one we're going to be discussing shortly.
• 18:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it's I think the recognition of the birds are actually terrifying and basically dinosaurs flying.
• 18:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, it's if you look at how fast they swoop as well.
• 18:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like certainly like the diving like diving hawks and raptors and things like that like.
• 18:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, you mentioned Osprey earlier, they dive at a pace.
• 18:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, things like that, it's terrifying when you see it actually happen.
• 18:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, you know, if you go out watching the good old day of that number of night, it should documentaries, for example.
• 18:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, and you see all these birds of prey just swooping down.
• 18:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is terrifying.
• 18:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, that, that, that, that, that.
• 18:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, you'll notice in that list they presented, with the exceptions of sparrow, kind of, and Nama Rida, who is a playoff of a male character.
• 18:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: All, every one of those characters was male.
• 18:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: female characters with wings that often.
• 18:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And when we do, there's a couple of different, well, for either.
• 18:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a couple of different ways to do wings.
• 18:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: You either put the pair of wings behind the characters back like Angel or Hawkman, or we do it more like the Vulture.
• 19:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's got the suit where he puts his arms through the wings and like his arms are the wings.
• 19:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's literally flabbing, right?
• 19:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like I just flew in from Cincinnati and boy, I'm a arms tire, right?
• 19:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's like that joke.
• 19:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Death Bird.
• 19:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to talk about this character's design, seems to have two giant fucking wings growing out of the bottoms of her human-looking arms.
• 19:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: She also has the Shiar feathered hair, but in this initial appearance, it looks extremely avian and like bird of prey.
• 19:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dan, you'll do you want to talk about this incredible design for the first appearance of death bird in 1977.
• 19:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Designed as I can tell by Keith Pollard, although I would not be surprised to learn if Dave Cochrome had some sort of end of this.
• 19:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was going to say though, it does look very caulchromesque, so it makes me think that it could be under the one of his legion of superheroes, cast off characters that became an X-Men character, or Marvel character.
• 19:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, she's in sort of like this one piece purple like lavender little number with a bit of magenta on it as well She's got this nice sort of like plumage coming out of her head and her wings that as you said sort of come out from underneath her arms Which must make underarm shaving really tricky
• 20:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's also in that sort of like a sky blue and magenta.
• 20:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's quite a striking sort of visual really, but it gets something that I was thinking when I saw this costume as well when I was reading this issue.
• 20:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Is how little her designs actually changed over the years?
• 20:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, he hasn't changed the overall sort of breakdown of the costume hasn't changed.
• 20:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's become a bit more modern, a bit more futuristic, a bit more sort of high tech kind of thing.
• 20:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Everything else about it, you've kind of got who death bird is now today, still on the panel.
• 20:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: From that first panel of that page, it's very, very semi, I think.
• 20:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's very, very solid.
• 20:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: I both agree and disagree.
• 20:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: This initial design is giving me Barbara Ralla.
• 20:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's giving very like I killed a bird and then climbed into its carcass, right?
• 20:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have like the talent wings.
• 20:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: You'll notice the markings under her eyes are very similar to LaLandra's.
• 20:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to later later sisters.
• 21:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: This issue is coming out the same month as X-Men number 105, which we're going to get to on my show, which is where the Shiar epidemic is just kind epidemic.
• 21:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's the wrong way.
• 21:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Shiar epic storyline is just kind of building.
• 21:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've met Eric the Red, the Phoenix Force, who's another bird character has been introduced.
• 21:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: Dragonfly was recently used in the X-Men who's another character with wings, but those are more butterfly or insect-like.
• 21:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: This character, Deathbird, it's the cow almost that's the most odd part.
• 21:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: If we look at more modern designs of Deathbird, especially when we get into the 90s, her hair becomes much more feathered in a traditional Shiar way.
• 21:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she starts to give, like, I don't know, real housewives of the Shiar, a real housewives of Chandallar energy.
• 21:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's a very milth and bucksum and like,
• 21:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Crazy huge tech design suits with like huge tits.
• 21:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is giving like very lean and avian to me.
• 21:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: The boots are also really interesting with the feathered edges.
• 21:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have these like gauntlets around her wrists that we're going to learn.
• 22:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: She can pull javillins off of, assemble them and throw them into combat to different effect.
• 22:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: almost like she has like trick arrows like Hawkeye, which is not a thing I think we've ever seen beyond these first few appearances.
• 22:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the coloring, it's the deep purple over her head and then transitioning into the blue and then her wings are a more like a warm purple.
• 22:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: transitioning also into that silvery blue with like the purple inlay around the edges pursuit a different shade of purple again kind of going more lavender and then that like feathered edges around the shoulders.
• 22:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a gorgeous fucking design.
• 22:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: Andrew, can you see the barberella in all of this?
• 22:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: The great tyrant from barberella and plus pie god the angel those both seem like it's a blend of those two tyrants into one.
• 22:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, I love Barbara Lafashina.
• 22:49
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think this is definitely paying tribute to that in the best way.
• 22:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: She is basically what if the tyrant breaks the wings of Pagar and the butterfly?
• 22:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love this character.
• 23:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're going to hear me like really gush about her.
• 23:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's amazing.
• 23:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: What do you love about Deathbird?
• 23:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Besides Mistique, she might be the X-Men villain who has fucked the most X-Men.
• 23:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's wow and not thought about that.
• 23:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah, she's she's like both Sunspot and Bishop She's got she's got sort of she has got a fairing petal energy about her she's got a sort of scenery sexuality about her But I enjoy and she is I was really shocked in this story that she's a inch person for mode on
• 23:29
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think that I had forgotten all never knew because she seems since then to be very much self-determined with her own agendas on her own brand.
• 23:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to learn in her next few appearances that she's been stuck on earth and trying to get back to her space so she's working with Moodock to like pay off a debt at this issue.
• 23:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: All right, we'll get to that eventually right now she's.
• 23:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: a hedge person hired by Boda, right, which seems beneath that.
• 23:52
  [SPEAKER_01]: Sure.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 23:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: I generally just kind of look and I mean, maybe this is just my read of it when I was reading it, like I always kind of think in my head she's got she would have a really really distinctive voice because she's obviously burning and what and more bird lady than the rest of the she are.
• 24:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: But for some reason, in this issue, because she keeps using the word like sister halfway through a sentence, I've been reading her as may-west and I don't know where that's wrong and I don't know who to blame for that other than myself.
• 24:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: But here we are.
• 24:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, but overall deathbed, I really enjoy it.
• 24:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think she's always an interesting time.
• 24:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think especially because, you know, she often just turns up and it's that instant sort of like, it's not like a lot of the other X-Men villains where you sort of get that, uh-huh, hello X-Men.
• 24:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, like you don't get that banity, you just get that.
• 24:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, you're here.
• 24:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: We're gonna fight gonna kill you.
• 24:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's that straight-up sort of psychopathy almost that I really really think is honest about her character voice is really important to me I'm gonna throw this away and I think you're gonna love it.
• 24:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I almost always want to go initially when I'm reading a female villain I almost want to go earth the kit or may-west direction, but but this character I think it's Carol Kane think about
• 24:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, so this is a modern audience is may know Carol Kane most from like the Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt.
• 25:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's like the woman who's like frustrated that you're like the Brooklyn's being gentrified.
• 25:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: This go look at early Carol Kane stuff from the 70s and that's death bird to me.
• 25:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like we put her in this costume and suddenly I'm deeply involved with this character in a very bit as I don't know.
• 25:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like it like I like her a lot.
• 25:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking a lot about she are lower on the show.
• 25:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: The she are can be very overwhelming.
• 25:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot going on, but it's important to recognize this is Claremont's first major opus.
• 25:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: He has been using some new stuff as he has been writing lots of Marvel stuff in the late 70s.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: We saw him breathing.
• 25:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: the ingerai into the X-Men from his horror work.
• 25:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: We saw him use the Anomen and the Sentinels he's just used Magneto but he's slowly been seeding the plot of this alien space princess in her bug ship coming toward Earth and saying, help me, Professor Xavier.
• 25:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: While using Eric the Red as his initial villain that's kind of sewing all of this together in a different title he's writing Ms. Marvel and we have Deathbird and he's going to weave all of this together in some pretty powerful ways in future stories.
• 26:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we're getting ready to get into the CR Empire craziness and it's become such a huge place in Marvel Comics.
• 26:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you both a fan of the CR?
• 26:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you get overwhelmed by them?
• 26:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Sure fatigue is a real thing I think.
• 26:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: I am of the school that says that Shia is not a natural avenue for the X-Men to go to now.
• 26:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like it always seems to me like that's Chris Plairmon indulging himself and every time since it's been because the Shia have been tied into the X-Men, but like they don't naturally belong in space.
• 26:31
  [SPEAKER_01]: My mind that's something not a story that I would want to tell all the stories that I did to you want to read.
• 26:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: But I do think that she are cool like there's something great about the designs about the culture, the charm and history of it all.
• 26:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, there are a lot of like the the panel got awesome character design.
• 26:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Stay tuned for the Eric the Red episode at the end of the month, but Andrew after hanging out with me in person, this will surprise you not at all.
• 26:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: The she are are intrinsically connected to both the Xavier and the summer's family lines.
• 26:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: and I have a huge story that I want to write about like an X-Men prequel that explains that.
• 27:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: So the first time we see Eric the Red is when Cyclops dresses as Eric the Red.
• 27:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Never been explained.
• 27:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Deathbird has a baby with Gabriel Summers.
• 27:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Adam X is the product of She-R Science and like the Summers bloodline.
• 27:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it goes on and on and we have the like Moomidry and Cassandra Nova and like all that shit with the She-R.
• 27:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's some crazy stories.
• 27:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: plus the connection between LaLander and Charles Xavier and why they're like connecting each other telepathically over space, we don't have those answers either.
• 27:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Marvel gave me a call.
• 27:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have an epic story.
• 27:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're right.
• 27:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, are you a fan of this year?
• 27:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I assume with this tie, and you would also be including such honorable mentions his life card and her brother.
• 27:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Obviously, pot she are as well.
• 27:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have very little to say about either of them.
• 27:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's keep it that way because there's honestly not a lot to tell.
• 27:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: No, so the shia in general So early shia, I really enjoy it when they turn up like dark phoenix phoenix all that sort of stuff Really enjoyed them.
• 27:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think there's such a deep dive into their culture into their you know who they are That kind of thing but I kind of think since then whenever I've touched on the cosmic stuff and the shia turn up
• 28:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's almost this collective sigh of these decades again because it just seems like they've sort of gone from being this like race of no no we must protect the galaxy we must protect the universe like we have this responsibility almost like you feel like there's a really heavy responsibility in their first few appearances of like no we will protect the universe we will protect the galaxy we will protect reality now it's sort of like almost like yeah they did conquer the screen the scrolls though and like yeah they did do this.
• 28:28
  [SPEAKER_02]: it also by the way, the super guardians, like the imperial guard, yeah, they're from planets that they've conquered and taken over, and they've just sort of hoisted them out of themselves, kind of thing, they've just sort of gone, yeah, you belong to us now in Denged Slaves, and it's not a great look.
• 28:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's what really bothers me is it kind of, they go from being this sort of noble race, and noble species to being, oh, so you're just the British Empire.
• 28:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.
• 28:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's part war of the roses, it's part star wars, it's part Barbarella.
• 28:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're going to be talking about the Shiar kind of structure again in the episode at the end of the month, but I'm also doing a bunch of Patreon episodes on Shiar characters where we go really into the crazy lore.
• 29:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: I've got one on the fraternity of Raptors coming out, which is a wild-fucking conversation.
• 29:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: as we mix another bird character in with dark hawk and all of those weird why not characters why not so i have a lot of thoughts uh but i have like phoenix and weapon x fatigue more way more than i have shiar fatigue right i can't say that of incredible shiar stories okay we're going to jump right into this issue and we'll talk about it as we go but one of the things we're going to notice right from the cover is it is the shiar versus the crey as we look at deathbird versus uh
• 29:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Um, if you listen to the show, we did a really incredible episode on Ms. Marvel number one, uh, only not the other issues after that, uh, with, uh, and in a sentient Paul Jenkins, which is incredible conversation.
• 29:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We talk all about Carol Danvers, how she was a character in the 1960s in the Marvell Captain Marvel book.
• 29:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: She is an air force commander like head of security.
• 29:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: It kind of becomes kind of a comedy character, but also like the love interest of Marvell, who has a human identity as Dr. Walter Lawson.
• 30:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now we see her in the mid-70s, initially written by Jerry Conway, but Claremont takes over this book as of issue number three and writes it concurrently with the X-Men.
• 30:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we've seen how when he writes a character, he loves to later bring them into the X-Men.
• 30:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: which will give us the binary and the rogue stories later, but Claire months very fond of this character right away.
• 30:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is Ms. Marvel number nine.
• 30:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: The title of this issue is Call Me Death Bird, Chris Claremont writing Keith Pollard is on pencils, Joe Senate and Sam Granger on Inks, Janis Cohen on Colors, Gas Percelledino and John Castanza on Letters.
• 30:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Archie Goodwin is the editor.
• 30:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now this is an era of second wave feminism which we talked a lot about in that first episode so I won't take a lot on that, but it is very rare in a Marvel comic in the 70s to see two women on the cover, especially two incredibly powerful women.
• 30:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: So seeing Ms. Marvel fighting death bird on the cover of a book in the late 70s is amazing.
• 31:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: And again the title Ms. Marvel it's bearing the name of Ms. magazine which is Gloria Steinemera and also a dolly partner and Gloria Steinem both just passed away, which is so fucking
• 31:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's the world is not okay, the world is not okay, but also Miss Marvel right like it's it's the character It's the name of the company right here in it the cover of this book introducing the newest deadliest Vogue the female fear this the female fury has ever faced this one has it all it's Miss Marvel There's his death bird.
• 31:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's no escape Miss Marvel not from the razor shop talents a death bird I don't have a carol cane impression everybody, but please go ahead
• 31:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: A caucrum is the artist on this cover, which is making me wonder if he's involved in deathbirds design a little bit.
• 31:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: And as we open the book, we have Carol Vanvers, a woman who had it made until the day radiation from an exploding alien machine gave her the skills and powers of a crey warrior plus an uncanny seventh sense, transforming a human woman into a heroin.
• 31:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, Ms. Marvel has been kind of a wild title thus far.
• 31:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you've read the 70s book, it's a ton of fucking fun.
• 32:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's some interesting things.
• 32:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: Carol Denver's has become a writer and has been hired by Jay Jonah Jameson, who is written as just a horrible misogynist, smoking a cigar in his office and saying shit like women should belong in the kitchen where they, where they should know their place, right?
• 32:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like he's a wild character at this.
• 32:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: He is employing a woman to run a branch of his publishing department to produce woman magazine.
• 32:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: At this point in the title, Carol has formed a full staff.
• 32:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Her writing job is often part of it, but Carol Danvers is the human identity.
• 32:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: And Ms. Marvel almost seems to be a separate entity in her mind.
• 32:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's like she turns into Ms. Marvel.
• 32:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: At the beginning of this title, she does that in inadvertently.
• 32:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: She has like headaches and like passes out in a cab.
• 32:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then like turns a new Ms. Marvel and then like wakes up in her house and it was like,
• 32:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: At this point, she's aware of her identity, but she almost seems to think of her super powered self as a different person.
• 32:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now Ms. Marvel's power set at this point, we have the energy blasts.
• 32:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not the energy absorption stuff that it becomes later.
• 32:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: Flight and super strength, which rogue is later going to take from her.
• 33:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then the other thing that Rogue also gets once in a while is what they call the seventh sense, which is a play on women's intuition, where she can sense danger nearby.
• 33:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not quite like a spidey sense, it's almost like a calling to be where she needs to be to solve some sort of problem, because only this powerful woman can do it.
• 33:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: This is the first 70s Miss Marvel comic that I've read so halfway through this.
• 33:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was just sort of gone like what to do Why she not just like blacks in a like she know she doesn't have the binary powers yet, and then like you know when she's doing the whole Almost like soft dissociative identity thing She's like what she doing and it's like oh, okay So that's the thing she's always had it wasn't just when she was stuck in rogue's head.
• 33:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Okay cool gotcha I am gonna go back and reread this because all the way through this issue.
• 33:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: I was absolutely cackling to myself because it's so much fun
• 33:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's so much fun.
• 33:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ms. Marvel, it's worth the read of if I've talked about on the show very briefly before the first female writer ever at Marvel was Linda fight who did some old Western shit, but in the early 70s, there were three by women for women comics that were introduced.
• 34:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was going to say yeah, which is also a climb on well at some points Yes, Claire works a lot of like silver samurai stuff into that yeah, he's gonna create mystique in this title in a little while Yeah, so there's a lot of close fit happening
• 34:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ms. Marvel is a great character, much worthy of longer conversations.
• 34:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: She has fought all men and all of her character or villains are like phallic insecure like 70s characters.
• 34:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: The scorpion who has a big penis tail the what's that guy's fucking name?
• 34:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: The the the the destructor is like a penis hat
• 34:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: doomsday man.
• 34:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now in the previous issue, she has just fought grotesque.
• 34:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: Anyone know grotesque and his connection to X-Men Lord?
• 34:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, he's like a big underground Frankenstein-looking guy.
• 35:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, wait, did he not kill changeling while she was for Xavier?
• 35:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, but it was changeling.
• 35:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, this is that guy.
• 35:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she has just fought grotesque in the previous issue.
• 35:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now we are opening on her new adventures.
• 35:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now she has some interesting things.
• 35:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of the storylines we see she is seeing a really hot therapist who is also fucking like in the previous issue, they're like running down the beach and swimsuits together.
• 35:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's a little misogynistic.
• 35:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a lot of interesting things.
• 35:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, we're so again, there's a lot to talk about, but we're going to jump into the issue more specifically.
• 35:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: I just feel like we should be referring to as death hyphen bird, because that's how it's written all over you yet.
• 35:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: And I don't know why it just, I think it tickled my brain in a funny way, because I was like, I'm sure there's not normally a hyphen.
• 35:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sure it's just death bird, not death hyphen bird.
• 35:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: So yeah, sorry, that's just me having a stupid aside.
• 35:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: I do apologize.
• 35:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Claremont is going to bring Duffbird back in the next issue and then later again in Ms. Marvel 22 and then in an Avengers book that he writes, I think it's a shoe 179.
• 35:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this character is not connected to the Shiar for a little while but we do see her referring to the airy in this issue.
• 36:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: She also uses a phrase that only Claremont has ever written and only three times.
• 36:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: She uses the phrase Shigon's bones multiple times in these issues.
• 36:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't know what Shai God is, but later it's gonna become, you know, Shara and K3 right like we have all these like These these these things okay, Deppords visual again amazing and these aerial battles drawn by Keith Pollard and this are really beautiful Be the sky-skaping The skyscrapers the like aerial nature of the angles.
• 36:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm really impressed
• 36:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we jump right into the fucking action as death bird slams Miss Marvel like in her lower back like kickster in the ass and says call me death hyphen bird and in my name tonight Miss Marvel dies.
• 36:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have this aerial battle.
• 36:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We're gonna learn in a minute, death bird wasn't after her.
• 36:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: She just saw her flying around and was like, oh, I'm gonna look at this lady not so it's fun.
• 36:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she says, uh, over so soon sister, I'd expected better of you.
• 37:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's working for Motoc and then we get a flashback Carol Danvers had been out on a date.
• 37:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: She has a rare day off.
• 37:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Andrew, do you want to talk about this date?
• 37:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's on a date with the man named.
• 37:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I lost his name.
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Paul.
• 37:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: We've never seen this guy again.
• 37:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, let's talk about her dress and his suit.
• 37:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: How do you think this date's going?
• 37:19
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it doesn't.
• 37:21
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's clearly not going great because she abandoned it far away to it.
• 37:24
  [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, that's because she turns into Miss Marvel and decides to deal with an intruder in her apartment and directly, which yeah, we'll get back to that weird subplot.
• 37:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a very fancy day, like she's wearing a gorgeous sort of altar strap.
• 37:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know how to describe it.
• 37:40
  [SPEAKER_01]: Think, dress.
• 37:41
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's wearing a blue tuxedo, but they were in a booth, so it looked like a very sort of classic Hollywood sort of venue to me.
• 37:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: She goes, anything wrong?
• 37:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: She says, no, I think the wine's making me giddy.
• 37:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Please excuse me for a minute.
• 37:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have to make a phone call.
• 37:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she goes in the bathroom and flies away.
• 37:55
  [SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
• 37:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: The door guy.
• 37:57
  [SPEAKER_01]: Wine is making her giddy, because that's about any glass, you know.
• 38:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is.
• 38:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of feel like though, anybody, anybody listening to this now, it's the new perfect excuse for if you're on a really shit date.
• 38:08
  [SPEAKER_02]: Just, sorry, the point making me feel giddy and then also I've got to go off and be a superhero because I've had a vision of the future.
• 38:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: Ah, yeah, like fantastic.
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Will you?
• 38:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: She has vision of someone breaking into her apartment and thinks I could call the police, but I could handle it myself.
• 38:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's flying away.
• 38:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's when death bird hits her.
• 38:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: As she is diving toward the ground, she's talking about the fall here, but she uses a phrase that Daniel uses all the time, which is
• 38:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: must pull out.
• 38:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're welcome.
• 38:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, you've been talking to Mandy.
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: Demand.
• 38:43
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's been a huge whole friend.
• 38:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: So a death bird, death bird, as Carol comes to fight back, well, as Ms. Marvel comes, that's the spirit sister, fight for your life, make this a victory worth the winning.
• 38:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we learn she has these cool little talons in her, like, gauntlets, and her do you have thoughts on the, like, the mechanics of how she assembles these different, like, javelins.
• 39:08
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it looks from the artwork.
• 39:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like is she assembling it?
• 39:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: Is it growing somehow?
• 39:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's not fair to me how it works, but it's a great motif.
• 39:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's a great little weapon.
• 39:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: These golden sort of skylon shaped javelins are a bit sort of retmo chic.
• 39:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're playing up on the bird thing.
• 39:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she throws this javelin while calling Miss Marvel
• 39:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ms. Marvel uses things like, halla, that's spears.
• 39:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: So we see the Cree influence being worked into her dialogue as well, which is very fun.
• 39:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: A deathbird's makeup is on point.
• 39:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's gorgeous with the lips.
• 39:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The eye shadow's amazing.
• 39:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Carol's calling herself a Cree Warrior.
• 39:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: And she hits a deathbird with a series of blows.
• 39:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's a kick to the face.
• 39:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: They get knocked into some chimneys together.
• 40:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Carol's thinking, by the great Pama.
• 40:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So again, more Cree stuff.
• 40:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're now on the ground in a rooftop and fighting each other.
• 40:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Deathbird is using claws, almost like she's savored to slashing it, Carol, pull times, and then she flexes her wings and knocks, Carol off the roof, the four creating another javolin.
• 40:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: Close Miss Model, another few blows and you might have had me.
• 40:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'll not give you that second kind of, that kind of chance a second time.
• 40:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: But no you this, your name will be counted among the Aries most honored foes.
• 40:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now over in the Nova book, which is happening concurrently, I referenced the villain Condor earlier.
• 40:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: Condor is also referencing the burglaste that he descends from, which is in reference to Sky Island, where bybees lives, if you guys know any of these references, there's an island to burglate people in the sky.
• 40:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: We don't need to spend time there.
• 40:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's...
• 40:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm far from beaten yet death-hiphon bird.
• 40:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: She says, as a matter of fact, I've just begun to fight.
• 40:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: catches a javelin out of the air and swings it, but Carol's apartment has been set on fire and there are children in danger, so now she has to protect the populace.
• 41:10
  [SPEAKER_00]: Deathbird gets one more cool javelin.
• 41:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: She has some golden ones that if she takes them out and touches them at the tip, they fire energy blasts.
• 41:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, these are her energy javelins, and Carol is quite hurt when she is hit.
• 41:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: Nothing human can even hope to survive the killing energy of my javelin beams.
• 41:27
  [SPEAKER_00]: And with your death, part of my debt to Motoc is repaid.
• 41:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: My life saved long ago, yours taken.
• 41:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yet part of me wishes I'd failed, saw wind rider, not storm, but Carol.
• 41:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Regrets won't do either of you any good now.
• 41:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: The irony is that my attack tonight was a lucky accident.
• 41:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: I was on another air, and when I saw her, the opportunity was too good to pass up.
• 41:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ha ha ha, this is delicious.
• 41:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: The energy javelin Andrew and he thoughts, it's cool, but it's not going to work because this is the human she's attacking.
• 42:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: So Carol even thinks that, like because of my crelor power, this doesn't affect me in the same way, my cre physiology pulled me through.
• 42:08
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then we have Carol's rescuing civilians while deathbird escapes.
• 42:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, do you want to tell us about her sequence of saving people?
• 42:15
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, for a start, there seem to be some Victorian orphans who've been teleported into New York.
• 42:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And because those children are not from the 7th.
• 42:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like that, not from the 7th.
• 42:23
  [SPEAKER_02]: Please.
• 42:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they have some more.
• 42:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's very uncomfortable.
• 42:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it also doesn't help when she then says, the children are a fire.
• 42:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like who talks like that?
• 42:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: the creed don't talk like that.
• 42:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: Miss Marvel, you don't talk of whatever.
• 42:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so yeah, so she rescues the children, which everybody's happy about.
• 42:39
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yay, for no infant mortality, that's always a good thing.
• 42:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, so the firemen firefighters are just sort of stood around watching and then they spray water as she saves the kids, the kids aren't on fire anymore.
• 42:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: She lands.
• 42:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's an image at the bottom of this page where he's comforting the boy.
• 42:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, he doesn't want to cry.
• 42:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: But there's something about her thigh and this image that makes me so uncomfortable.
• 43:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: It doesn't look right does it.
• 43:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: But at the same time, do you know what I actually quite like?
• 43:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: I quite like the fact that as much as this is sort of set in her up from what I've gleaned from this one issue that I've read of this title, as much as it's set in up to be this sort of like, you know, this modern feminist is badass.
• 43:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like they're not afraid to sort of go to that almost maternal place that.
• 43:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Which I have a lot of women as a hero, Spider-Man,
• 43:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: But I kind of like it.
• 43:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of like it not necessarily as a commentary on what a woman should be as a hero versus a man.
• 43:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: But the fact that like actually for this issue, you see that there's this bit of Carol and Miss Marvel sort of at an odd almost like, Well, you know, sort of like, oh, well, Miss Marvel takes over or I need to be Carol kind of thing.
• 43:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's nice to just sort of see that little like a little human moment from the hero.
• 43:41
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels right.
• 43:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: It feels nice.
• 43:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: I like it.
• 43:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now I promised to do the trial of Carol Danvers one day, give me time to get there, but one of my favorite things about Carol's character, one of her deepest flaws, she does not think through the consequences of her action.
• 43:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's very impulsive and will often make the biggest decision the fastest.
• 43:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: Despite the fact that firefighters are on the ground with hoses, how does she decide to put out the fire dead?
• 44:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: She decides that she's going to go up to a water tower and got, I can't actually lift this.
• 44:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a bit too heavy for me.
• 44:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: So what I can do though is I can knock out the supports and I can hold it above my head and I can grunt and groan about it for a bit.
• 44:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: And then I'm just going to throw it.
• 44:14
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm going to pray on it and we're going to hope for the best.
• 44:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's the Carol solution.
• 44:18
  [SPEAKER_02]: That is the Danvers solution to this problem stamped seal of approval.
• 44:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: Carol Danvers.
• 44:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So she froze her fire into the building, 10,000 gallons of water, and then she gets her Linda Carter 70's Wonder Woman moment where she shesams back into Carol form with like some glowing energy.
• 44:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: And suddenly it's very overwhelmed.
• 44:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now Andrew, one of the things Claremont will explore with both this character and Rogue that we're still seeing in the comics today is when Rogue stole all of her memories and powers and we learned she has a ton of childhood trauma.
• 44:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We now see Carol back in her pink dress dealing with the wrecking the wreckage of her
• 44:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: want to talk about the scene, I think it's really touching.
• 44:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's wondering if through the burned out drowned apartment, great idea Carol, finds a raggedy old photograph that's been destroyed by either the fire or the rescue that shows Colonel Michael Rossi, United States Air Force who was a teacher, friend, lover.
• 45:11
  [SPEAKER_01]: She really likes inappropriate sexual relationships, this woman.
• 45:14
  [SPEAKER_01]: She was checking a superior officer.
• 45:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: It sounds like that was only one photo.
• 45:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you remember where Claremont has written Michael Rossi before this?
• 45:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: I do not.
• 45:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: No, the name does not write about.
• 45:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just a few months before this, Steven Lang and the Sentinels that project Armageddon murder Michael Rossi in an ex name.
• 45:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, not long before this.
• 45:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: So again, we're seeding stories, which is fun.
• 45:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: But Carol gone all gone all my life consume.
• 45:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: Just like that, manuscripts, books, paintings, photographs, and then the picture to my lady of the clouds with all my and the dialogue.
• 45:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: The last word is love, burned away along with the face of the man who wrote it.
• 45:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: a beautiful flowery dialogue from Claire mod.
• 45:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: And this like rich interior emotional world of our hero, Spider-Man's over there to spill and sorry for himself, but Carol, like actually has some depth, which I really love.
• 46:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love this scene a lot.
• 46:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: Then does she say stay sad Andrew?
• 46:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, well, she gets angry.
• 46:12
  [SPEAKER_01]: She lashes out unable to give voice to the grief and rage boiling deep within her
• 46:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: an incendiary bomb left by the person who broke into her house.
• 46:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: The fireman come up and they're like, wait, there's a fucking lady in a pink dress up here.
• 46:29
  [UNKNOWN]: What happened?
• 46:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Why did she have such a huge butt plug?
• 46:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's kind of look like a big butt plug.
• 46:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: In the words of mother Teresa and he thinks a butt plug would be brave enough.
• 46:40
  [SPEAKER_00]: In the words of Daniel Wilson must pull out.
• 46:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Captain Jean D'Wolf shows up in famous Spider-Man characters.
• 46:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, we recently saw this character in the newest Spider-Man brand new Dame movie played very differently than she's written in the comics and then we see another character named Ballard.
• 47:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: Ballard is a little used villain in Miss Marvel comics that later we learn oh I got to remember his name hang on.
• 47:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: He becomes a costume supervillain called the Centurion and Claremont, again, seeding characters.
• 47:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Claremont created this character over in his work on the Black Goliath title, just a few months before this.
• 47:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: So some interesting 70s Marvel lore.
• 47:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We won't spend time on that.
• 47:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: But Ballard is working against Carol Danvers.
• 47:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: There's some secret calls and things going on.
• 47:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Carol is back at the editorial job at Woman Magazine with her staff.
• 47:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now, some of these characters are really fleshed out.
• 47:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: Tracy Burke is a character that has been used in modern Carol Denver's comics.
• 47:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: She is a gray-haired kind of feminist writer, woman.
• 47:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have Jay Jonah Jameson here.
• 47:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have two men working for this team named Lou and Jean.
• 47:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then Jay Jonah Jameson, who is a massage and is brings in a very unqualified young girl by the name of Tabitha Townsend and kind of forces her on Carol here.
• 48:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, she's a buddies daughter and like she's going to work for you now.
• 48:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I always wanted to be a writer.
• 48:07
  [SPEAKER_00]: Like it's just a very cute little scene.
• 48:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: All of the staff are talking about what they should be writing about.
• 48:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: And in previous issues, Carol has been interviewing female astronauts.
• 48:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's obsessed with flying, which is another thing we love.
• 48:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: But they're talking about real world figures from the 1970s.
• 48:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm going to just kind of reference these quickly.
• 48:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: They mentioned Indira Gandhi, who, of course, in 1977, this is when this is being written.
• 48:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: The Prime Minister of India commanded massive global headlines in 1977,
• 48:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh after her controversial 21 month emergency period calling for general elections and then she suffered a horrible defeat.
• 48:44
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's in Dira Gandhi.
• 48:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: We mentioned Rosalind Carter, who is a prominent media figure.
• 48:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: She was the new first lady of the United States wife of Jimmy Carter and ended up as a key political envoy across Latin America.
• 48:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see Rose Carter Kennedy referenced.
• 48:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is the revered matriarch of the Kennedy family who was like really people were obsessed with her back in the 1970s.
• 49:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: She had just published her autobiography Times to remember.
• 49:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Lillian Gordy Carter referenced here often called Miss Lillian.
• 49:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a Jimmy Carter's outspoken mother who in the 70s had a lot of like unfiltered content and had a lot of things to say.
• 49:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: You can look up interviews.
• 49:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: We see Amy Carter reference to his Jimmy Carter's nine-year-old daughter and the world was obsessed because this was the first child that had been living in the White House during the presidency for like many years.
• 49:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: We also see them reference Skylab, which is America's first crude space station.
• 49:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: It was a source of a ton of international anxiety because NASA revealed in 77 that its decaying orbit was unfixable.
• 49:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: So there was like a lot of like space obsession happening here.
• 49:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of things, lots of pop culture references here.
• 49:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: Either if you have any comments on this scene and how it fits into the late 1970s, world of woman magazine.
• 49:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, can we talk about the Splatter?
• 50:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Because that's what girls outfit.
• 50:04
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, it is.
• 50:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: Especially wearing cows wearing this very tight orange sweater with the word woman, which of course is the title of the magazine, but also looks like she's just wearing a shirt that identifies her as woman.
• 50:17
  [SPEAKER_01]: And we've got this little breath of course across the breasts across the breasts, and she's wearing pants, she's wearing some red.
• 50:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's not the most, but that's not the most startling part for me.
• 50:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's wearing orange rimed glasses, which we didn't actually care of it.
• 50:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's amazing.
• 50:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: And there's the bottom of that first page of the magazine.
• 50:36
  [SPEAKER_01]: She's flouting in a chair in the most unlady like fashion.
• 50:39
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's kind of an amazing image to see.
• 50:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just absolutely like collapsed in this chair with like belly wrinkled up and up.
• 50:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh, shh
• 51:07
  [SPEAKER_02]: Why did you create this stupid fucking art?
• 51:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: My job is so stupid.
• 51:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have to do everything myself and then in walks her shitty boss Jay Jonah Jameson with his jet giant penis cigar in between his teeth like he always has like a force a good doing Employee on her.
• 51:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: I love that she has this rich emotional world.
• 51:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: She also references they're putting Feelers into Alden's department store, which is the base for modeok and aim There was recently a giant battle in this department store, so she's trying to find a way around it
• 51:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Let's go in on here, there's a fun stuff with her staff.
• 51:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: I really love the tracing bird character in particular.
• 51:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: But only other thing would have been, we're talking about what she's wearing.
• 51:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: And the best of is we're talking about she's got these orange rimmed glasses.
• 51:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's got these red pants.
• 51:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's got this orange jumper saying woman, right?
• 51:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: But she even says, these are all borrowed.
• 51:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: So these are all borrowed clothes.
• 51:53
  [SPEAKER_02]: But she's borrowed clothes.
• 51:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, that matters.
• 51:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's gone like, no, I need those glasses because they go with the top.
• 51:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: I need those.
• 51:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: I need those.
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Do I need glasses?
• 51:59
  [SPEAKER_02]: Probably not.
• 52:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm a superhero.
• 52:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe not.
• 52:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe I do.
• 52:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: Don't judge me.
• 52:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: It matches my talk.
• 52:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody go listen to I am woman by Helen ready immediately.
• 52:09
  [SPEAKER_02]: They come back and you'll see what we're talking about.
• 52:11
  [SPEAKER_00]: Now she's in her office alone and she's trying to figure shit out.
• 52:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, we've got this department store connection to aim and now we've got death bird who's trying to kill Ms. Marvel almost succeeded.
• 52:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she says to herself, like it or not, Carol, you're caught up in this murderous chess game.
• 52:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Are you Motox, Pawn or your own queen?
• 52:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: Fuck yeah, bitch, you are your own queen that I am here for it.
• 52:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So now she has to go investigate the department store.
• 52:35
  [SPEAKER_00]: She's over in the Bronx.
• 52:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have a new outfit.
• 52:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel, do you want to describe this?
• 52:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I think it's the same trousers.
• 52:40
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because they're the same palette.
• 52:41
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think the same color.
• 52:42
  [SPEAKER_02]: But obviously she's gone to Alder's department store.
• 52:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's that, you know, break it up.
• 52:46
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's going to, she's going to bust it open.
• 52:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: She's going to crack this case wide open.
• 52:49
  [SPEAKER_02]: But she went close shopping first.
• 52:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: Because priorities.
• 52:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: She got back and these trousers are bell bottoms.
• 52:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like flared under the knee.
• 52:56
  [SPEAKER_02]: I wasted It's a way too well like you know what it's it's a serve.
• 53:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm gonna give it that and it's some kind of some kind of neck scarf as well I believe she's pulled her hair back that's the other thing that always fascinates well fascinating about this issue is that she goes from having quite long hair as Carol to then the sort of flicky hair As Miss whatever anyway, sorry, that's just a random aside
• 53:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Anyway, so she's walking through the department store, you know, she's saying like, ah, with my glasses and clipboard, nobody will suspect that I'm Ms. Marvel.
• 53:20
  [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, well, it's probably more to do with the fact that you're not walking around in a late afternoon fly.
• 53:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: That probably goes the extra mile and then you'll not be suspected of being Ms. Marvel.
• 53:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then she thinks to herself, so let's hear it for Susie Super Spy.
• 53:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: Throwing away a job, she loves, for a chance to bust some villainous heads.
• 53:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now I want a Susie Super Spy.
• 53:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I'm kind of like, I kind of love that I genuinely love the dialogue as much as whistle of like making light of it in joking.
• 53:45
  [SPEAKER_02]: The dialogue is brilliant.
• 53:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's so great.
• 53:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a great fucking comic book.
• 53:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: Aim is watching, Andrew, do you have thoughts on the classic aim B key pursuit?
• 53:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's iconic.
• 53:56
  [SPEAKER_01]: I just, I always wonder how we ended up here.
• 53:59
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's about to the strange headpiece.
• 54:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like the, the more do you call it, the sort of the gauze section isn't across the eyes.
• 54:09
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's across like the mouth.
• 54:10
  [SPEAKER_01]: So how do they look out of this costume at all?
• 54:13
  [SPEAKER_01]: Like they're all just staring down all the time?
• 54:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: I guess the time spots, I've done a mode on episode or trial before.
• 54:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I could do a whole thing on aim.
• 54:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: I think these guys are wildly fun.
• 54:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're ridiculous.
• 54:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: So they ordered some guys to go grab Susie, Susie, Super Spy, who's over here.
• 54:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: One of them says freeze, chickie, and one grabs her around the neck.
• 54:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: She kicks the others in the face with her field boots, and then is on the run, so that she can knock some boxes over on top of them, run into an elevator,
• 54:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: to do escape, but the elevator opens on just more amagents, which is amazing.
• 54:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: They have done on her and she thinks, uh, talk about out of the frying pan into the fire, bluff, fun.
• 54:56
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's your only chance.
• 54:57
  [SPEAKER_02]: I kind of love it, but also at the same time, feel like I said that so much, I kind of love that.
• 55:02
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's that thing isn't it she's run for the elevator.
• 55:03
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's like come on come on though Like will you not it's giving sort of like almost horror movie sort of like oh, but if I run up the stairs Or if I run into the basement kind of vibes and it's like come on Carl like you should know better than this You should know better like hide transform it in his Marvel anyway and beat them up and who does she find waiting in a green suit But Paul in I mean, I'm casting this man myself as Paul in
• 55:26
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, well, well, isn't this a pleasant surprise?
• 55:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: You know who we captured number four, Carol Danvers, editor of Woman Magazine.
• 55:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Take her to an interrogation when you're done killer and make sure it looks like an accident.
• 55:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: But, uh, over on the side, we have some blue amagence.
• 55:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, Motoc is an aim creation.
• 55:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: uh, he wants to take over AIM.
• 55:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is AIM proper in yellow.
• 55:49
  [SPEAKER_00]: He has made his own aim and he's put them in baby blue.
• 55:53
  [SPEAKER_00]: And now he's fighting for takeover with deathbird at his side.
• 55:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Greetings, betrayers.
• 55:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am MOTOCK.
• 55:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I have returned to take back that which is mined by right control of advanced ADM mechanics.
• 56:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Deathbird says, and after AIM, the world, if you have gods humans, then pray to them for the hour of MOTOCK's vengeance is at hand.
• 56:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Uh, Andrew, do you want
• 56:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: If you pay attention, if you pay attention to how artists draw Moda, the amount of space that his face takes up versus the amount of space his hairline takes up is always a really startling and jarring thing.
• 56:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is a very tiny face moda with the longest fucking hair you've ever seen.
• 56:35
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's all down in the bottom of the facial features and very, like, raggy looking.
• 56:42
  [SPEAKER_01]: He's, he's simply held a left on a part, I would say.
• 56:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's just puffing out the plaster there to keep him applying.
• 56:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: This body looks a little bigger than, I suppose it is supposed to just be a regular human body, but it's looking very mishap and weird.
• 57:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: He's a baby, basically.
• 57:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, my grandmother used to collect, you could look these up online.
• 57:06
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, uh, so people would like take apples and then wait for the apples to like, weather up into like, you know how like an apple looks when it's all weathered up.
• 57:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: Car faces in them and like build little bodies.
• 57:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like apple-faced dolls.
• 57:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're really horrified.
• 57:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: They're like, shrivel apples.
• 57:19
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's what Vodok always looks like.
• 57:21
  [SPEAKER_00]: So, we need to be super picky, but I love this character.
• 57:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: This issue rocks.
• 57:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: Some comics have so much dead space and so much unnecessary.
• 57:29
  [SPEAKER_00]: This feels like Claremont writing X-Men.
• 57:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: Every panel is rad, every art angle is rad.
• 57:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have an aim civil war coming up with death bird and moatok.
• 57:38
  [SPEAKER_00]: What are our concluding thoughts on Miss Marvel number nine to be continued next week on Graham Allkin Lane with cry moatok, cry moatok.
• 57:47
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's a lot of fun.
• 57:48
  [SPEAKER_02]: So this absolutely slapped like it is just, it go.
• 57:51
  [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like this is the definition of going from the sublime to the ridiculous because it's all not like, there's like you said, there's not a page.
• 57:58
  [SPEAKER_02]: There's not a panel where it's wasted.
• 58:00
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's not wasted space.
• 58:01
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's, I kind of think a lot of modern writers can probably learn from this.
• 58:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: If I'm going to be totally bold about it, because there's just something every single panel, there's just beat, beat, beat, beat,
• 58:10
  [SPEAKER_02]: and it's so many different plot points that are seeded as well.
• 58:13
  [SPEAKER_02]: Again, it's something that I don't think we get a lot in modern comics.
• 58:16
  [SPEAKER_02]: You know, it's that sort of this what five, six different things that we've identified going on in these 19 pages.
• 58:22
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's for a solo character.
• 58:24
  [SPEAKER_02]: What eight, nine issues into their run?
• 58:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: That's wild to me.
• 58:27
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's wild that this is, I don't know.
• 58:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's just there's something special about it.
• 58:30
  [SPEAKER_02]: I definitely want to go back and read this whole thing for the beginning.
• 58:33
  [SPEAKER_02]: It just feels very, very, like a special, it just feels special.
• 58:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I would say I thought the fight was going to be the like the whole issue really like when the time we get to the end of the fight.
• 58:44
  [SPEAKER_01]: I thought, oh, well, now we'll just wrap up the issue.
• 58:46
  [SPEAKER_01]: That's page eight when we get to the end of the fight.
• 58:48
  [SPEAKER_01]: It keeps going and there's a lot still to come.
• 58:51
  [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it is really beautifully haste and so much impact in through every page.
• 58:57
  [SPEAKER_00]: Carol has a lot going on.
• 58:59
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have long-term plotlines.
• 59:01
  [SPEAKER_00]: This is an excellent way to tell a superhero comic, right?
• 59:04
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's not a team book.
• 59:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: Claremont, we're used to writing a team books, but this is Claremont already.
• 59:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: Solo, single character, this book rocks.
• 59:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everybody go read it.
• 59:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: And we're going to continue next week.
• 59:14
  [SPEAKER_00]: My guests next time, by the way, everybody.
• 59:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: Josh Trujillo, Juan Ponce, and Andrew Dron all coming back to the show.
• 59:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: We have some really fun shit to talk about.
• 59:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I fucking love Deathbird if you haven't got that yet.
• 59:24
  [SPEAKER_00]: We opened the month with X-Men 104, the script read, which is very eric, the red-focused.
• 59:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: We are closing with the academic panel about eric, the red.
• 59:32
  [SPEAKER_00]: So lots of she are deliciousness, and we will get into more in the next year.
• 59:37
  [SPEAKER_00]: You're most creative shit that I have found since, before I dig you, are these crazy cookbooks that you've put together?
• 59:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, Dungeons and Dragons and Baldur's Gate, which is amazing.
• 59:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: Do you want to talk about your favorite winged characters in these books?
• 59:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: And then you can kind of work into your outro from there.
• 59:53
  [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, interesting, I mean, sadly there are no wings on an owl there, otherwise I would pick an owl there.
• 1:00:00
  [SPEAKER_01]: Or are there wings on an owl, but now I'm thinking about it.
• 1:00:03
  [SPEAKER_01]: I think if there are, there are now.
• 1:00:06
  [SPEAKER_01]: that is, there are feathers, there are feathers on an owl bear, but they are not flying creatures, but you know, the dragon is the ultimate winged creature in dungeons and dragons.
• 1:00:15
  [SPEAKER_01]: It's the particular beast.
• 1:00:18
  [SPEAKER_01]: So, yeah, you get a lot of cool winged creatures, you get a lot of like the azimar characters, the angel angelic player race, but I'm a teafling guy all the way.
• 1:00:30
  [SPEAKER_01]: as so many queer people are.
• 1:00:32
  [SPEAKER_01]: So the devilish teethlings, you do not have wings usually, but do have horns on their heads.
• 1:00:37
  [SPEAKER_01]: Those are my guys.
• 1:00:38
  [SPEAKER_01]: And in fact, I edited a book of repellent teethling stories, because it's not a D&D product, but a book called The New Artness, all about devil themed characters, short stories written by queer creators, and The New Artness will be on Kickstarter.
• 1:00:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: I
• 1:00:54
  [SPEAKER_01]: Hopefully, around the time has come out, but keep an eye out for that, and then I have the folder gate three official cookbook.
• 1:01:02
  [SPEAKER_01]: Feast for a 10 day is coming out in early November, so you'll get to enjoy my new delings around in that universe, and a lot of remancipal recipes.
• 1:01:12
  [SPEAKER_00]: Daniel has grown entirely slacked jar of this information.
• 1:01:17
  [SPEAKER_02]: I'm not going to lie like you've literally just like my characters.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love a tea fling.
• 1:01:21
  [SPEAKER_02]: I love a tea fling.
• 1:01:23
  [SPEAKER_00]: And I love the cookbook.
• 1:01:25
  [SPEAKER_02]: Oh yeah, I love food.
• 1:01:26
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's all I eat.
• 1:01:29
  [SPEAKER_02]: My final thoughts on this are, I think it's a really great introduction to Deathbird.
• 1:01:32
  [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a really great sort of fun.
• 1:01:34
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's high camp.
• 1:01:35
  [SPEAKER_02]: Let's forget real.
• 1:01:36
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is a high camp comic.
• 1:01:37
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is fantastic.
• 1:01:38
  [SPEAKER_02]: It is, I'm definitely going to go, but like I said, I'm going to go back and reread this whole series now because this issue itself was so much fun.
• 1:01:44
  [SPEAKER_02]: You can find me on Instagram at Daniel Elington underscore boot on Instagram.
• 1:01:50
  [SPEAKER_02]: I mostly just post pictures of my stupid face on there projects.
• 1:01:54
  [SPEAKER_02]: I have got a couple of ions in the fire.
• 1:01:55
  [SPEAKER_02]: One, which is actually quite fit in is I am in a D&D live podcast, which should be airing hopefully the first episode of it should be out by now.
• 1:02:04
  [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry, bye.
• 1:02:05
  [SPEAKER_02]: the time this is.
• 1:02:06
  [SPEAKER_02]: It's a sort of steam punky civil war sort of story going on there where I am surprisingly playing AT fling.
• 1:02:12
  [SPEAKER_02]: But yeah, so that is going to be that's called the war on virtues which should be out first a couple of episodes should be out by the time this is.
• 1:02:19
  [SPEAKER_02]: And that's me.
• 1:02:20
  [SPEAKER_00]: I am not a D&D guy.
• 1:02:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: My husband is an amazing D&D, a dungeon master and he will work on these elaborate beautiful campaigns for me and the kids.
• 1:02:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: D&D just has too many
• 1:02:31
  [SPEAKER_00]: I have a spreadsheet brain and like if you want me to be a sorcerer and there's like 40 spells but they all have fucking different rules, nope, not interested.
• 1:02:39
  [SPEAKER_00]: What I do to survive these games is I will choose really simple characters with very easy fun motivations and like this simplest move set.
• 1:02:47
  [SPEAKER_00]: I want to know my three attack moves and how they work and that's all I want.
• 1:02:51
  [SPEAKER_00]: But I will often choose characters that will kind of bother my kids.
• 1:02:54
  [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm currently in our current
• 1:02:58
  [SPEAKER_00]: P.H.U.R.P.H.
• 1:03:00
  [SPEAKER_00]: Bargle, first bargle, and the kids are like, I hate that game.
• 1:03:03
  [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like good, because you have to use it all the time.
• 1:03:05
  [SPEAKER_00]: And he keeps making these obnoxious decisions that leave them so frustrated.
• 1:03:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: So someone will be like, you want to talk right now for, and I'll be like, no, thanks, and walk away.
• 1:03:13
  [SPEAKER_00]: And they're like, dude, no, thanks.
• 1:03:16
  [SPEAKER_00]: So this is my way of surviving, dude.
• 1:03:18
  [SPEAKER_00]: That definitely sounds like my character's.
• 1:03:22
  [SPEAKER_00]: They'll be like, okay, we need to plan and I'm like, no, I'm good and then I'll just go attack the guy and they're like, Dad, we didn't pass the plan yet.
• 1:03:28
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's it's very fun for me.
• 1:03:30
  [SPEAKER_00]: That's how I survive my own deans and plans.
• 1:03:33
  [SPEAKER_00]: Well, hard everybody.
• 1:03:34
  [SPEAKER_00]: Go read Miss Marvel number nine.
• 1:03:36
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll be back here next week with Miss Marvel number 10, much love to Daniel and Andrew.
• 1:03:42
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll talk to kids soon.
• 1:03:43
  [SPEAKER_00]: Can't wait to hang out with you both again soon.
• 1:03:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Much love.
• 1:03:45
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thanks for listening.
• 1:03:46
  [SPEAKER_00]: Everyone, we'll see you back here next week.
• 1:03:48
  [SPEAKER_00]: Thank you for listening to Grimalk and Lane.
• 1:03:50
  [SPEAKER_00]: We hope you are enjoying this podcast.
• 1:03:52
  [SPEAKER_00]: Grimalk and Lane is produced and recorded in Salt Lake City, Utah, with music and editing done by my husband, Michael Bell, and promo art done by the incredible Seth Martell.
• 1:04:02
  [SPEAKER_00]: Look for us on Patreon, where we are releasing weekly episodes about obscure characters and facts.
• 1:04:09
  [SPEAKER_00]: It's a great way to participate with the podcast for only just a couple of dollars a month and it helps support what we are doing here.
• 1:04:15
  [SPEAKER_00]: Also, the best way you can help
• 1:04:17
  [SPEAKER_00]: Grimmulkin Lane is by sharing and liking and subscribing, but also please leave us a review wherever you listen to your podcasts.
• 1:04:25
  [SPEAKER_00]: We'll see you back your next time on Grimmulkin Lane.