Latest / The Long Burn / Episode 24 - Recognizing the Power of "And"

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Episode 24 - Recognizing the Power of "And" · The Long Burn

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Hello once again.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is Joel Mallon, uh licensed professional counselor in Georgia, licensed middle health counselor in Florida, and we we missed a couple weeks.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We did.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: We uh we were busy for a little bit, so um surprise.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm uh not in Jacksonville, Florida anymore.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Dr.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wade actually extended a position to me.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we are now in the same room looking at each other's bald head.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, I'm I'm bald.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: His is by choice, right?
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yours is still there.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um so um yeah, we missed a couple weeks because of logistics and family moves, and we're still in the middle of some of that, but we wanted to do what we could to try to get back to the table, back to the conversation with some of this.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're yeah, we're trying a few new things out, uh podcasting in the same room and uh trying to a few new things out, being a team that is no longer co-located.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but or excuse me, that is co-located.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's not located in two separate places.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_01: Bilocated, I think is bi-located versus co-located.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um anyway, so yeah, um I I accepted a position working at Orchard Health as a a therapist, and I think just kind of also any everything we took pictures and headshots this morning.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working on some building some shelves in our studio room that uh we've got we're sitting in right here.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so pretty much anything that's going on.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I like the variety and I like the busyness of it.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, that's that's my updates.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_01: Any updates for you, Jonathan?
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, we're glad to have you here.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's I'm glad to be here.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, it's it's fantastic, and that's what I told you through the whole process.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's more than a counselor position.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, and I love that.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So this is wonderful.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I like I like doing the same thing day in and day out can get old.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I like the variety of uh different tasks, different opportunities and responsibilities and stuff.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, so so we're uh working through some of that and uh and starting.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: I've already seen a few clients and getting things cranked off with that.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we're like I said, working on the studio and just trying to find what the new normal means with us being in the same location, and so far it's been good and just looking forward to seeing things continue to grow in the area and continue to grow here at the practice.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so what do you want to talk about today, Jonathan?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, this uh I I heard a podcast, uh it's it's been a while back now because I think I found this information prior to the move.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was Cody Sanchez, her interview with Darman, and uh they kind of got into this and not but in life.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so that you can have competing truths um that can happen at the same time, and and that they're they're not necessarily opposites because they work together.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: And that was all the basis of that was the the Stockdale uh paradox, which uh for a little background is Admiral James Stockdale.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: He survived seven years in the Hanoi Hilton, uh, which is a very brutal prisoner war camp in Vietnam War, tortured, deprived, all all the typical things you'd think about.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and while a lot of his co-prisoners tried to think, hey, we'll be out by Thanksgiving or Christmas or whatever, and then they would uh kind of perish of a of a broken heart, um Stockdale kind of maintained this this and mentality where he he confronted the brutal truths of what all was going on in that in that prisoner of war camp, but also that he maintained the faith that that he would prevail.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: So it wasn't really optimism, it wasn't really pessimism, it was kind of an acceptance of both.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that was really, really pertinent um to my life, my journey, and and I'm sure a lot of our listeners, and thought that was great to kind of bring bring that up here and get your take on it uh from the the counselor therapist life and kind of side.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: How do you feel like it was uh instead of being an either or perspective, it was uh an and for him in that that story or in that scenario?
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the and was it he he accepted the fact that it was brutal, it was terrible, all the stuff they did to the did to them, but then he b didn't expect to get out at a certain time and and and have some expectations that then weren't met, and so he felt uh defeated and beat down and and and his cohorts there kind of took that approach, and and when their expectations weren't met, uh that seemed to lead to kind of their peril, their death.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: So he tried to have the the insight that, hey, this is awful and we're gonna prevail, but not set the expectation of when.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the the way I think about it is that um hope deferred, they there's a thing, uh a phrase that says, Hope deferred makes the heart sick.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so in the situation that if he was every day like, I hope we get out this week or I hope we get out next week or something like that, continuing to have that disappointment after disappointment after disappointment, it leads to a complete sense of lost and helplessness.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think with him committing to his scenario, saying, Um, I'm stuck in a prisoner of war camp and I can still survive, and I can still do what I can to help my fellow man, and I can, you know, honor my values or whatever it might be.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: That that's I guess that's what I perceive in that story, the and aspect of it.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, absolutely.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I I think back in in my life, um even into into teenage years, that I think some of the greatest disappointments were when I had expectations, whether that was, you know, uh playing sports, whether that was uh school, whatever the case was, uh a family trip, and I had laid out this this framework in my head of how things were gonna go, and then when they didn't happen or when they didn't meet that expectation, man, that hit hard.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I think that's something that I'm trying to work on again through through this journey.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we are building orchard health, we are you know building um direct care practices and and trying to do things um to meet the needs, and we will hit the bumps along the way, and we will find setbacks, and there will be times where uh it feels rough.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that was kind of the past couple of weeks too.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And and so figuring that out, that you know, I I I guess the saying the only thing's guaranteeing life or death and taxes, you know, it's kind of true.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: If if you don't expect there to be I guess if you expect there to be easy times, then when they they don't happen, then you don't get let down.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think that uh if I'm perceiving this correctly, you know, I think that you had an and situation recently because you know, a lot of people, you know, they come here for medical care and stuff like that.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_01: And some people are like either it's a medical clinic or it's not.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the either or aspect.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but you had the idea to break it out into orchard health aesthetics, orchard health um IV and wellness, I think it was, and then orchard health counseling, you know.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just a medical clinic, it's medical clinic and these other services and these other things that are being offered.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so the the psychological terms for uh kind of the topic for today is uh a dualistic mentality, black and white thinking.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's different terms for it.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I think it's summarized best by the uh philosopher Ricky Bobby.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: He said, if you ain't first or last, you know.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's that's our mentality a lot.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: That it's like if I can't do this the way I want to do this, then I'm not gonna do it at all.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: And we would miss so many opportunities if we require things be on our terms or be the way that we want them to be, or be in an ideal situation.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even even us dealing with the housing situation we have now, you know, we had a lot of issues trying to move into the home that we bought here in Georgia, and we haven't even closed yet.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we had some uh some repair issues that had to be done that delayed our closing.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: But we can be in this house and we can still be healthy and we can still, you know, start working a job and we can raise our child and everything else when it's not ideal.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I'll tell you the hardest part about that is comparison because coming from Jacksonville, we had a beautiful home.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_01: We had all of our things organized and laid out and they were clean, and then we go into this new property that just wasn't ready uh for residency, to be completely honest.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, getting into that situation, we have to remember like my wife and I had to sit down, we had to talk about what matters.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what matters is like, is it what we wanted exactly?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: Not yet.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: Not right, it's not right now, but it will be, you know, and that's something that creates hope.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and so on top of that, you know, we it's not created any illness for us, it's not created any kind of safety aspect for us or anything like that.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: And and those are the things that matter, you know, that I mean, for for thousands of years, people lived in, you know, outdoors or they lived in caves, or they lived in houses without air conditioning.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I mean, air conditioning is a still a relatively recent invention for the most part or comfort uh that we feel as if we can't live without any longer.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so all these things we've got to get down to the survival aspect.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: If you're familiar with Maslow, Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you know, you've got to look at is that baseline met?
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Is my survival met?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Because you can still do those other things.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_01: When that survival aspect is not met, that's when things really fall apart and you get real desperate.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think about sort of the the dichotomy of of thinking too.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you we think of folks as as either, you know, uh they're courageous and and brave or they're fearful.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, what's the saying that that the courage is not the absence of fear?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: Courage is fear, but then still moving forward, making that decision to do so, being intentional about it.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's that's part of the situation here is that that's the big and you know, I I uh I I have fear, and and I think we have fear as entrepreneurs in in starting businesses, and and will our business you know survive or even thrive?
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and we show up every day and we continue to work hard and and invest ourselves and our time uh in in in growing that business, pursuing that dream.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's it's not an either-or.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think the hard part about some of this move is that you know my wife wanted the guarantee of, you know, is this gonna work out?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Are we gonna find a nice nice house?
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: Is this gonna be a good place for our family?
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I told her honestly, he's like, I don't know.
• 10:18
  unknown: Right.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we're still gonna commit to this plan because I believe it's a good plan.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, part of this endeavor, I think I might have mentioned this a while back that we were working towards being a single-income family because we genuinely wanted the opportunity to focus on raising kids.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, my wife grew up with a constant parent in the home.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I grew up with a constant parent in the home.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: And does that mean that's the right way to do it?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, but that's what's familiar to us, and that's what feels right simply because that's what we're used to.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so we wanted to be able to do that for our child, and maybe if we are able to have another one down the road and everything else, we both agreed that's what we wanted.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: But what's funny, the path to accomplishing that looks very wildly different depending on who you talk to and who you ask.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you came to me several times in in the past few weeks, and you know, this is this the last straw?
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: Have have we done something wrong?
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: Have we messed up?
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: We you know, uh you looked at several houses.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: We went and looked at houses and and kind of made some decisions about things and you felt good about this, and then right, getting here, it's it's not panned out the way you expected.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept telling you, yeah, just wait.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: We've we fast forward six months, a year, it's it's going to be different.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is just a temporary chapter, a temporary season, you know, so you and continue to to pursue and and and build your dream.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And something that that you know, because of all the hands-on stuff that I do with woodworking, the DIY, like home repair stuff, I can see, like I can visualize what something is gonna be for the final product, and I can see past what it is.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, my wife has a harder time with that because she doesn't uh you know do as many of those things.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I mean I can see the house that you know we're being patient with currently that it's gonna be a beautiful property.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be a great place to raise a family.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's very private.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, there's plenty of space, plenty of room indoors and outdoors, and everything.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I don't want to get too caught up in looking at what is, you know, I want to continue to connect with the idea of what it can be or what it will be.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um we and these are these are principles, you know.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: If we can't demonstrate how we're trying to use some of the principles we're talking about on here, we should probably shut up.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so um, I think finding ways that in real life we can, you know, identify where those are being applied, I think that's what makes them relevant.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: But we're also human at the same time.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: And we can be great at giving advice, but taking our own advice is a whole different ballgame.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that's what holds you accountable.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: And that's the thing that I I like about being in uh kind of having a platform where you have where you are saying certain things, because if your life isn't reflecting the things that you're saying, then you're not practicing what you preach, and people quickly disqualify a hypocrite.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: People quickly disqualify what you have to say if you can't demonstrate how you're applying it yourself.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, we we've talked on here before about the Valdasta office at adventure, and kind of when it fell through, I kind of fell into that six months of uh blaming myself and and and uh kind of being down about things.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think back to to last week, we got some news here at the practice that that one of our larger employer clients or our largest employer client was not going to renew after a buyout by a new company uh starting in 2027.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: And though I can't say I was shocked by it, it still hurt.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And and there was about a 24-hour period that it was a rough go for me.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Now there were some other things that were tough as well.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was a hemorrhoids, nothing.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was a roof leak, it was our well pump went out, it was one of our ace units.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I mean, there there were other things, but I think that was the big blow.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: But it here we are a week later, and and I'm I've been okay.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I didn't I didn't fall into that six weeks.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: I I realized or six months, I uh I realized, hey, we we will figure it this out.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: And now that wasn't just me.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: That was our awesome team here at the office saying we'll do this, we'll pound the pavement, we'll we'll talk to folks, we we will persevere through this, um and hopefully we'll be better.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, if we fast forward a year, we we'll be better than we are now.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and change forces you to come up with new new solutions.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so you know, is the solution to target those larger companies, is the solution to look in different areas, is a solution to you know find more individual uh individuals to sign up for the practice, you know, there and there's not a right answer, you know, and well it's probably an and, right, not an or.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's something you have to add to it, you know.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think by adding uh counseling as a benefit, you know, we're hoping that this draws in individuals from the community because Barion County, Georgia is practically bereft of mental health treatment.
• 14:53
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can drive to Valdasta, um, but from here that's a good 30, 45 minutes, depending on where you go.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got entire, you know, communities that are within the 30 mile radius of this area that have no opportunity, no option for mental health counseling.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: And and being in a smaller community like this, you know, uh telehealth is not something they want to do.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they do not want to talk to a digital man on a box, you know.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: They want that warmth, that face-to-face counseling.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're hoping that that's another thing that can be the end that uh changes some of the outcome of uh of the business and uh and getting some of those patients that are falling off the books.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, it it's diversifying in different ways.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um we've I've been doing some of the work upstairs at the clinic, um, changing some of the rooms around.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've got I've got big plans that I don't think Jonathan's quite ready for it yet, but I think down the road it's something that will be viable um to turn some of the space into to work studios into um like office away from home type stuff like that, people who do remote work.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think there's a big opportunity there to do that and even have talked to some people in town that might even be interested.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's another endeavor that might create some passive income for a part of the property that you already own that just needs some polishing in order for it to be there.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I mean, and I think it's it's turning over all the rocks.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's not which rock, it's every rock.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you're right, we've we've got the diversification with with the the counseling, the peptides, the ivy wellness, the aesthetics.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have the in-house pharmacy.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: We I try to tell people we become the one-stop shop.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I want people to come here and get what they need and be able to go home, go back to work, whatever the case is, whether that's for follow-up or for a sick visit.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and so I think you have to have that and and I think the and is what will be the change to health care.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and I hate here we are sitting at almost open enrollment season.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_00: We've talked to a bunch of businesses who who are interested in doing something different because they're tired of the the old way of doing it.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're gonna pick one plan or the other, um, and we try to come in and say, hey, you can have direct care and all of the benefits that we're providing, you know, and you don't have to worry about the premium increases and the craziness and no access and and all the the stuff that entrepreneurs hate to deal with when it comes to to benefits and and health insurance.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: So um yeah, I I think we've we've positioned ourselves well and continue to do so with a great team that starts to think outside the box.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I think being able to give people that ab ability to to do that creates more hand.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that idea that two two truths can be true at the same time, uh, some of that plays into the therapeutic modality called dialectic behavior therapy.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that's most often used with borderline personality disorder.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: That uh borderline people tend to be very cut and dry about things.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, some of the the monikers about that is like it's a pattern of unstable relationships because they can't tolerate someone acting or operating other than what they believe to be correct.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so dialectic behavior therapy kind of it helped it it it's a pathway of worksheets and self-exploration that help you to sit with a situation instead of requiring that it be or become this thing that you believe it should be.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: Are you able and willing to tolerate it as it is, even if it doesn't ever look in the way that you thought it was going to?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and that can be very difficult for a lot of people.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: And and other different diagnoses play into that, like obsessive-compulsive disorder and different things, you know, where people base their stability based on the quality of their environment, which is totally not true.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can be in a chaotic environment and find a way to be okay.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have it and it's it's like the idea they they say that your environment either reflects your mental state or you perfect your environment to correct your mental state.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, you may know someone who has high levels of anxiety, someone who is just feels it feels like they are emotional chaos all the time, and you go in their house and it is immaculate, it is spotless.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: And then you have some people that they just kind of are chaotic, but they accept that and they're okay with their house being a little bit messy.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: They're okay with it being a little bit lived in.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's so many different ways of looking at this.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: But the the way that I was thinking about this is you know, being a new dad and trying to figure out, okay, you know, I want to do really well at work, and you know, it's the idea I can do really well at work and I can still be a good father.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um, I had mentioned before talking about my dad that that his main thing that he did was provide for us because he worked so much, you know.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: He was still a great dad.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I'm sure that he probably had more criticism of himself than you know, me or my brother had of him and his parenting.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I want to learn what it looks like to be able to do well at work and business and in community life and be a good dad at the same time.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that, you know, being able to expose our son to all the things that he could be interested in doesn't mean he's gonna like everything that I like.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: And my wife and I have talked about that.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: She's like, he might not like photography or woodworking.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, that's okay.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, but I want him to know something about it.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want, I don't want him to be kind of ignorant where it's like, well, I don't know anything about that.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Know a little bit about it.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't even know a little bit about it, you don't know if you like it or not.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: You know, some people will, I'll I'll encourage clients to do something different, like, hey, you need to do something different.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Get out of that bubble or that routine or that you're you're kind of stuck in.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, how do I know that I like that thing?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, you don't, but you won't know anything about it until you try it, you know.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: And if you try it and you decide after after a few times, you know, that hey, maybe that's not for me.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's okay.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's information.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:39
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, you gotta get comfortable being uncomfortable.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's the only way to grow.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in discomfort, I I think we apply discomfort to too many scenarios because there are a lot of things that that may create discomfort, but it's something that maybe should not make us uncomfortable.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like speaking to someone socially, we all are capable of doing that.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so some of it is evaluating the areas where I'm uncomfortable.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, should I be uncomfortable?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Is it okay to be uncomfortable with this?
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to work on this?
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Do I need to and and I mean the biggest the the biggest recommendation therapeutically is exposure therapy.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: The moment the clients say, I don't like doing XYZ, the very thing that I tell them that they need to be doing is XYZ.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like you need to do more of that so that it doesn't feel uncomfortable anymore.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you don't do more of it, you're gonna continue to avoid it, it's gonna continue to uh you know play into dysfunction and different things like that.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think that goes right along with this this stockdale situation where, you know, hey, I uh I can be uncomfortable with public speaking and I'm going to continue to work at it.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean I I I liken that to when we've gone over the past nine years and talked to employers.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: I know that the the first couple of years, I mean, it was very nice to have other people in the Room so that I didn't have to be the only voice to talk about the different aspects of how we can we can work with an employer plan.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: And now I have no problem.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but it took years and years of of putting myself in those rooms, in those positions to grow to feel that comfort.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: And now I see it when we go and and and Sarah and Rebecca, our nurse practitioners here, go with us to give these talks.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: But they're always looking to me to do that because they've not had enough of that exposure to do so.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's kind of nice to see that batons been been sort of passed.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um but it yeah, it's it's come with work and continuing to put myself in those uncomfortable positions.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a hard thing to make yourself do, you know, of of intentionally placing yourself in situations.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I'm a big proponent for, you know, if the only challenges you ever deal with are challenges other people put in your path, you're always gonna resent challenges.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: However, if you live your life in such a way that you're pursuing challenges, you're pursuing ways to grow, you know, that feels exciting.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, I'm not sure how this is gonna turn out, but I feel confident in my ability because historically, you know, every single one of us have far more successes than failures.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and you got people who may disagree with me on that.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's just impossible to fail more than you've succeeded and still be on the face of the planet.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just impossible.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that was one of my favorite things growing up playing baseball.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh, you got a guy that fails seven out of ten times at the plate, and he's still an all-star.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's still a Hall of Fame ball player, and he failed seven out of every ten times he got up to bat.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: And and as I got older and after my my career was was over, I think that's helped me in life.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: That you know, it doesn't matter if I was over three with three strikeouts in a game, if I got that fourth at bat, it was a new day, it was a new opportunity to to to m do something different, change the outcome.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so I I I think that's played a lot of great lessons in life.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think the earlier that we can learn that, the more confident we are in the things that we do.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: But you have to put yourself in those positions to gain that confidence.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't just show up.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's not just a cognitive shift either, it's also a vocabulary shift.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because, like, let's say you're dealing with a situation with um your wife, a parent, family member, whatever it is.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say I want to set a boundary with my wife, but I don't want to hurt her feelings.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: So if you remember, remember how like our you know English language kind of works, but tends to invalidate everything that came before it.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: So if your main focus is I don't want to hurt her feelings, well, then you're probably not gonna say the things that you want to say or need to say.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so the cognitive reframe and the vocabulary reframe for that might be something along the lines of I want to set a boundary with my wife, and I'm planning to be gentle with her feelings and patient with the time she needs to process what I have to say.
• 25:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So again, that that doesn't slow the energy or motivation behind the whole endeavor.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: It simply says, I'm gonna do this and I'm gonna be aware of this simultaneously.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: This goes back to that idea of holding both things equal, of equal value in that moment before you even start that conversation because the butt is going to have you focus on the discomfort of the encounter.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: It changes the entire dynamic, the entire environment of that conversation.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's like I know you don't do this often, but I mean, have you ever had a day where you just let yourself off the hook and you just kind of veg out or binge watch something on TV?
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: Not by choice, but like the pets that's for Candace.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's for Candace.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: Candice asks, I'm like, okay.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like the idea of saying, you know, I was really productive yesterday, but I haven't gotten anything done.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I wasted my day today.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, or you could say, hey, hey, I was really I've been really productive this week and I needed a break and I took today off.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and in in that situation, like I said, when Candace asked for it, you know, we'll have weekends or or days that yeah, we're uh working on the practice, working on our our rental properties, working around the house, you know, and and she'll approach me and say, Hey, this Saturday, can we just sit around, order pizza, watch Netflix, just chill out?
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I see that as investing in our relationship and our marriage.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not a a day of doing nothing.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a loss.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's investing in something else that's not business.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Business, right.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's a good thing because you want to be successful at business and successful in your relationships, you know?
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the hard part, especially in this day and age, is giving 100%, showing up 100% in every space that we are.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And you can't.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you cannot give a hundred percent.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: 100% plus 100% is 200% that you don't have.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, it's a recognition of there's gotta be something left.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's gotta be those days where you recognize that this was not a waste, you know, because uh c some clients say I didn't get anything done today.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: BS.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like that you have you have not lived a single day and got nothing done.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: You you lived another day, you had healthy meals another day, you got rest another day, you had planning another day.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we demonize anyone who takes a break in today's society.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's hustle, hustle, hustle all the time.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're lazy.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Is that what it is?
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, but that's what they're perceived as.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they're perceived as.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, and people will tell themselves that about themselves.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_01: Nobody else has to say it.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: They feel like they're lazy when they do these things instead of saying it's okay to have pro progress for two to three days and then take a slower day to kind of reconvene to kind of come up with a better plan or identify new tasks that need to happen.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, this this idea of sitting with your own thoughts, sitting with your own emotions.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: If you lose yourself in the midst of a path or a trial or a journey, you know, what do you end up with at the end?
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's someone else's outcome, essentially.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, taking time to slow down to be with your thoughts, and that that's why I like, you know, sometimes it's annoying how early my body wants to get up, but I enjoy the mornings where I can be with myself and be with my thoughts and think about what's going on and think about, you know, how how much time have I spent with my wife, how much time have I spent with my son, you know, how much time have I made to do something that's enjoyable to me, yeah, you know, and kind of find a way of of asking myself, is this balanced?
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, because if you ask somebody else, it not it's not.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because no one else is going to help you achieve balance because typically what they want is gonna outweigh what you need for your own self-care.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna butcher this.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but but there it was uh it was a book.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: I maybe it was it was a Benjamin Hardy was one of the co-authors.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it talking about, you know, building in those down days, but uh, whoever he was talking about uh apparently gets out a calendar to look at the next year and and blocks off work days, you know, back backstage days of getting things ready and then rest days.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And half of the days are rest days.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's incredible because he's going to show up working hard the work days so that he has that time to, I guess, you know, it's the work hard, play hard, or you know, to to recover.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: He's going to dedicate his time to recover that.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: You know, somebody out there's gonna know who I'm talking about or have read that book.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, either way, like I think there is that is the importance of building in that time for for rest, for recovery.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I I can think back, and uh maybe you've got an example of this too.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: I can think back where I felt like you know, I was doing great at work, I was doing a lot of stuff with the Navy and being around base a lot, interfacing with a lot of the commands and everything, and I remember thinking I was killing it.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and that required a lot of discipline on my part to maintain that that energy or that pace.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: But in the meantime, all I was doing was criticizing my wife for not being able to have the same pace that I did.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so what's funny is I'm feeling like I'm a success in that moment, but not realizing I'm damaging my marriage in the process.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: And and so, you know, that's where I had to slow things down and recognize that her success and my can my success probably won't look the same and probably never will look the same.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know, of what she feels like is good or success on her part, they don't have to look the same.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: They can both be success and be different.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and you're exactly right.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I think my example would would be the same thing with Candace and I.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think that I had the same recognition as we've grown Orchard Health, as we've been busy doing other things, as we've started to get into real estate, that I don't mind going, going, going.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I can have about you know 15 different things going on in my brain at one time.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: And when I start to talk to her about that, she just it's deer and headlights.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I realize I have to pick and choose my times, I have to pick and choose my topics, and after two or three, we're done.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's okay.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that's gonna be okay because in order for us to do it together, we have to work at her pace, you know, and then there's things that I can work on between talking to her that prepares for the next conversation we have.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's a a lot of the way that happens with me.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: I get kind of tunnel vision because whenever I'm working on a project, I'm thinking of, you know, what kind of wood do I need?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of screws?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: What kind of hardware?
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: What how am I going to manage my time to get this done?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Do I have everything that I need?
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking about 50 different variables that I'm balancing.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then while I'm feeling like, okay, I feel like I got a good plan for this, my wife will start talking about other renovations that she once done.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh no, no, don't, please don't.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm like, I was organized, and now you're introducing new things, you know.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've asked her, I was like, hey, please don't start talking about the next task or goal until we finish the one that we've already started because it feels overwhelming to me.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, as we kind of start to wrap up, I think one of the biggest things that I can think about for entrepreneurs, uh, you know, uh fire chasers, operators, uh, small business owners, uh, folks that listen to this this podcast, you know, I I think to sum it all up for the and principle is is you know, we can all pursue big goals, big dreams, and show up on a regular Tuesday.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: Be there for the family.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Do we we can do both, but we just have to plan that out.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and and so I I think that's that's huge because you're right, you don't you don't want to lose your marriage in pursuit of what you're doing.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to not run at the same pace as as your family runs.
• 32:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I I think that's a a big part of of being successful because you could have a$10 million business, but if you've lost your family and and your wife and kids and whatever, uh in the meantime, what do you have?
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, like the boring Tuesdays are the days you don't feel as good get like you got as much done, you're still moving one day closer to the goal, you're still moving one day closer to the day when things are the way that you want them to be or or more the way that you want them to be.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so, I mean, even just persistence over time, you know, even if it doesn't feel like you made any major milestones or anything like that, it's still something that's recognizable as progress.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_01: But it has to be viewed as such because the the pace otherwise is completely unmanageable, it's unsustainable, and it's unhealthy.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then and you know, we've we've talked about that.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you can you can go fast in short spurts, but that's you you can't run a sprint for a 5k.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: You just can't do it, right?
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I I think that that's a a perfect principle for for folks to think about as they ebb and flow in in their in their journey and their goals, whatever that may be.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know, comparatively, you could say that there are far more people that could run 100 meters or even 300 meters.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are far less people that can actually run a full marathon.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, there's that that longevity, that long-term, you know, constant dealing with the pain or discomfort of something for that period of time.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's totally different.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, but we we liked these these short sprints to success.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: They're not all short sprints, right?
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and we've got to take those times for rest.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: We've got to recognize that it is part of the and it is part of the additive formula to getting to where we want to be long term.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't have said it better.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we are back.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are good to be back, and we are in the same room, so we're just staring at each other wistfully, listfully, I don't know, long romantically.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what it ever is.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: We're just in the same room.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's nice to have something different to change it up.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we're gonna be working on getting some uh new topics lined out, um, and we're gonna try to get back on our weekly schedule.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you guys for giving us grace with our break and everything in the midst of things.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so we will talk to you next time on the long burn.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: Bye guys.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Bye, Jonathan.