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A Conversation About Forgiveness That Changes Families with Peter Anderson LMFT · Head Shrink Inc.

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: I have got a great surprise for you today, so I'd love you to listen in and leave comments.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: You are listening to Edge Drinking, your answers to life, relationships, and daily living.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Peter, thank you for being here.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: I uh we've never talked before, and my we've only seen each other on TikTok, I imagine.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's great to have you here and be able to have a conversation with you.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I know that it would be easy to have conversations around estrangements and kind of the no whole no contact world.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not super interested in that.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm more I'm much more interested into hearing how you came into the world of therapy.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I I honestly believe that therapists have very unique stories usually that that lead them to where they're helping others.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that's that is definitely what I'm curious about.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so with that, can you just kind of introduce yourself to the general public?
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Peter Anderson.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm an LMFT here in right outside Boston, actually, and it's about 17 miles away.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully I'm I'm not freezing on you.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So uh yeah, I'm I I grew up in Illinois and then after right outside Chicago, and then I moved to North Carolina.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: In North Carolina, I was actually an acting major at a school called North Carolina School of the Arts.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Went there for a year.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's where so that's like in a college level thing major.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: North Carolina School of the Arts got yeah, I was being taught by Robin Williams and Kevin Klein's teacher.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_02: Heard a lot of a lot of fun stories about Williams.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, I get I was actually in the movie Patch Adams only as like a blob in the background.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_02: I got to meet Robin Williams.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: That was pretty cool.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so uh and and let's see, I I then left there, fell into fell into a pretty significant depression, did not do well in school.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_02: Fell into a huge depression because I wasn't invited back to the acting school because I was kind of on my own.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was kind of introverted and not introverted, but just I was kind of in isolation.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: I was very isolated, I suppose.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, how how would you be in how could you be an acting school?
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's true.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: I call myself.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: I guess it exists.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: It probably does exist.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think, yeah, I think I wasn't quite ready for it.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: And they had said politely, hey, we need you to leave because you know you're not really connecting with the I was like, okay, film this huge depression because that was my life, that was my whole career, or I thought it would be.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then I lived with my brother Chris in New Orleans for about a summer.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is way back in the summer of '98.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then moved back to live with my dad and mom for about three years.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: I did some carpentry construction.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like sweeping floors one day.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, okay, I gotta go back to I gotta go back to college.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was 20, 25, 26, and went back to school at Appalachian State University, and then graduated with a double in let's see, at industrial technology with a double minor in philosophy and math.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I went to seminary.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I immediately went to seminary in 2006.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I was about 29 then.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I was can I interrupt?
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, please, yeah, please, yeah, absolutely.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: When you think about so my degree, my undergrad degree was in international relations, and I okay always tell people it was the most worthless degree.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because because I I'm gonna travel overseas and work at a state department or something, and then I meet my wife and she doesn't want to travel, and so then it just kind of ruined that.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say industrial, what was it?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: Industrial industrial technology with an emphasis of construction management.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: So that's really so then.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, kind of.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I thought I was gonna do like more, I thought I was gonna like own, not own, but like get into environmental engineering and stuff, and and maybe like what's kind of cool about that degree is like if the you know shit hits the fan.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if I can if that's if uh you know I could then maybe I don't know, use it one day to just build houses or something.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: But when the zombie when the zombies are yeah, when the zombies come over, which might happen.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_02: If AI like takes over our career, I could maybe take over, you know.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so okay, so then there's that.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: And then how do you go into ministry?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah, I had become a Christian at the time.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: Let's see, I thought I was gonna be uh this is right after acting school, and then I thought I was gonna like do some type of work.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: I was really kind of interested in getting possibly a PhD.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I thought I was gonna, I thought I was gonna work maybe for a church, maybe a pastor.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: But after getting my master's of divinity, I was like, I am not called to be a pastor.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, you know, I worked for a church.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: I think I I never got I I would meet with guys in my seminary and they would struggle with various issues that you could probably imagine.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like pornography.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's pretty common.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, good lord.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: And I I love talking to guys that were vulnerable with me.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: And whenever I would I would meet with like pastors, they would always say, I never felt like I never feel like people would come to me that they can come to me with their real struggles.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I could say that, like even looking back, I I don't think I ever really, I think I only once or twice would really I was I was going through my own stuff.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_02: I felt comfortable confessing, like you know, I guess talking to somebody because I always felt kind of judged, you know, like I wasn't I I wasn't quote holy enough or something.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and anyway, long story short, after my MDiv, I just I was looking at getting a doctorate at Boston College in patristics of all things, but the woman who is supposed to uh that I was supposed to say, I have no idea what patristics are.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it's like early, early church fathers, basically.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's like early I was interested in before 1500?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I was actually interested in dispensational Christianity, it how it influenced the church to be more of a separate entity to the world.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_02: I was really fascinated.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: I still am kind of fascinated with that because Christianity for the past 150 years has really been kind of like had built its own little Christian coffee shops and Christian sports programs.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: And that's really fascinating.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: So I was interested in what influenced that.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: But she wasn't she actually wasn't invited to the admissions board.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_02: There was some weird political stuff going on, not politics like Republican, Democrat, just some turmoil.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I didn't I wasn't invited because she wasn't in, she didn't advocate for me.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I walked into uh I walked to and I met uh with uh one of the teachers who I had taken class with because I took a listening class and she said, Peter, you're actually pretty good at listening, people.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Oh, it's like the first time a teacher at that school had actually said, Peter, you're good at this.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I was like, Oh, okay, cool.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, and they invited me right then and there.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_02: It was actually pretty awesome because it was in the summer.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was doing construction again.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know what I was gonna do.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: Just finished an MDiv, and then I got invited to May M FT, and it was the best decision I ever made, honestly, because I fell in love with it a whole lot.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I stayed in the same school, and the school itself actually had a had a program on site, not a program, but a clinic on site, and I got to meet people in Jackson, Mississippi, all through like poor, richer, like everybody in the socioeconomic spectrum.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, man, it was awesome.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I got too much.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that was Appala Appalachia.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: No, that was Reform Theological Seminary.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_02: That was a different that's where I got my grad school training.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I did that pretty fast, and then I moved to Boston area and then started working for a clinic.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_02: And then I at the time started another degree program in Hebrew because I was fascinated with Hebrew.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, finished that.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I've always been fascinated with like language and and religion and the influx of philosophy, and um and then after a few years after that, I started my private practice in 20 2014 because I was burned out in clinic clinic work, and then I was just yeah, I was just completely burned out with that.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: So okay, and now and now you're supposed to say, and now I'm taking Greek, and so I can under No, I was gonna say I did take Greek, but I I I like Hebrew better.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, right.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So do you retain do you retain that still?
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I do.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_02: I still try to read a few things a day.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: I yeah, we took, yeah, I got I I had a great opportunity up here.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: I I took classes at Harvard and I learned I yeah, we did Greek, Hebrew, Latin, Ugaritic, Akkadian.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was a I I did a little bit of work at yeah, the Semitic Museum over here.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was really interested in the influx of uh psychological criticism in the book of Job, understanding trauma through the book of Job.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: That I wish that still kind of fascinates me.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I I love old, I love, I love old books, stoicism, Taoism, you know, just uh old philosophies and I feel like that's maybe missing in the therapy world because a lot of my clients are very disconnected from the what I would call, you know, archetypes of the past.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_02: And right.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I use my clients, my clinic sessions to talk about those things too much, but that's kind of what I'm saying.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: I stoicism, I haven't done a lot of read on stoicism, but I I absolutely love the idea that we can only be a control of ourselves and what other people say about us.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I've said this before in posts like people can say all the kinds of things that they want about me personally, but they don't know me, and I can't control that.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: So I I talk to clients about that as well, and I think stoicism is a great thing to help with anxiety often.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean, it's it's not an easy, oh, I'll just start thinking this way, and then things will change.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So then do you do so?
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: You went to Reformed Theological Seminary.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: I immediately start thinking, oh, do you have plaid flannel shirts and smoked cigars?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_02: I do, I actually used to all the time, but now I'm probably leaning more Catholic, honestly.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm I'm kind of fascinated.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a Catholic myself, but I go to an Anglican church now.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm very fat, I really love like the liturgy.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_02: I love old, old stuff.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: But no, I do.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I guess I I still I still have a cigar and a and a pipe around here somewhere.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_02: I'm more into pipes.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're missing the beard.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: You're missing the missing the beard.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: It's too patchy, yeah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's too much.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so I so I grew up evangelical, right?
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: So my the church I grew up in was like a conservative Baptist church, and then I I go to like a fellowship Bible fellowship church now because everyone hates the Baptists, so they I call them an undercover Baptist church, but my son definitely is into the liturgy.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've I'm finding younger aged people seem to like that whole liturgy thing much more than my age, Gen X age of people.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know why.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: I I I there's probably a reason.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: Do you I mean, do you have insight on that?
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_02: I know for me, I was kind of good just growing weary of like you know, the modern Christian music.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I also work as a psych triage in a hospital, and I I think I was just longing for something that has a has a lot more depth, that has some type of I think that's what I I know I agree with you.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think a lot of people are are looking at Eastern Orthodoxy or Catholicism or Anglicanism.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think because yeah, they're trying to find voices of the church that have been around for thousands of years, I think.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so it's not just me and my Bible arguing with somebody, it's like what are the what do the fathers and mothers say before us and how do they struggle with some of this stuff?
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I find that a lot more refreshing, I think, and freeing.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's just me.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever have you ever had the opportunity to go to the Vatican?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: And no, no, I did just recently go to Chicago.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_02: I did visit a Catholic church in Chicago to talk to one of the priests there.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: It was really it was it was the big one.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was the really went in, and you're just like, oh my gosh, this is I don't know.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I have I've never been to Chicago, but if you can ever go to the Vatican and Rome, I highly encourage it, especially if you have an interest in kind of the the forefathers of Christianity and Catholicism.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's just yeah, it's pretty amazing to go to these hundreds and hundreds, maybe in some cases thousands of year old churches that have relics.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I think relics, even if it's not real, it seems cool to have like, oh, that's one of the the the thorns from the crown of thorns.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And that's is it really yeah, I'm probably not just it just I know I have enough product.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: I still am, I'm still very much still Protestant though, too.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I can't I can't like kiss a statue of anyway, of Jesus or pray to.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not into yeah, I can't.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: I there's still a lot of things I I'm still protesting about, but is that is that an Anglican thing?
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've seen it before.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen it like during Easter, they'll bring like a cross of Christ, and a lot of people will go like kiss the feet.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh and I was with my very evangelical friend this last, and I'm like, I I don't think I could do that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_02: Can you do it?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: And you're like, no, and it's like we stayed like so yeah.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I my son dabbled in Catholicism at some point, and he I I think the downside of Protestantism is that it totally forgets about the thousand years before before Martin Luther showed up, and and so I I think it is fascinating that there's a whole you know a thousand years of forefathers and church fathers and and stuff with writings and things like that that I think Protestantism just kind of forgets existed.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I yeah, it's kind of interesting.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So so then now you've had your own practice since 2014.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And are you taking clients currently or you've yeah, a little bit, yeah.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_02: I I I've been doing more like you know, coaching on the side, but it's I would say I'm pretty full for the most part, you know.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_02: I my my wife wants me to not see so many people.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_02: I try to, I try to, I don't see a lot of evenings anymore.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: I have since I have three three little three kids under the age of 14.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: 14, 11.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, yeah, he'll be 12 soon.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: And and then eight.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_02: So 14, 12, and 8.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I try to get home by six.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you know, okay, enjoy dinner.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And usually, and so I don't know if you had the same experience.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: When I first started out, I would see like kind of anybody, but now that I've been in practice for a long, longer period of time, I don't have to take everybody that comes through my door.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I can like really focus in speci on specific things.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of your experience?
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's still like I I have a hard time with certain people.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I I I don't I I'm probably not gonna sit with in fact.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: I just turn some people down.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_02: I, you know, like if it's something like antisocial, like just no conscience, I'm not you know, I just or maybe like somebody that's really done a lot of abuse toward their wife, or you know, um, I have a hard time with that.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I you know, I I think just addiction.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not I'm not really an addiction specialist, although I'm getting better at that.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: I I do I actually do specialize in sex addiction, so I do love meeting with a lot of people that specialize, you know, and that need help with that.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think so I appreciate you saying that because uh do you think of it as an actual addiction or impulse control?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thanks for saying that.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I it's so it's it's so easy.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think probably I think you're right, probably more impulse control.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there's a I don't know the nuance, you might know this more than I do, the nuances of the debate.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like some people are against saying addiction, impulse control, but I I found acceptance commitment therapy to be highly effective for a lot of those, you know, a lot of people.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's definitely not a niche of mine, but I had a client yesterday that's talking about their partner having sex addiction.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and then we did get into that conversation where like when I think of an addiction, and maybe it's just my lack of information about it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: When I think of an addiction, I think of oh, if you can't use the thing that you're addicted to, you'll have you'll potentially die, or you'll have withdrawal symptoms that might put you in the hospital.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: So heroin, for example, or alcohol or something like that.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can't masturbate because you looked at porn, right?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you going to die?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, and so maybe that's just my that's my night to take that's a good way to put it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I love that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's pretty true.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're probably not gonna die.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: You may you may like you know, scream a little bit, but I I'm sure you'll be okay in your heart.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where and again, it's not I it's not my niche.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: So I that's my kind of Neanderthal way of looking at it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's the argument for is because you know, I I I I know people that you know had SAA meetings.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: I think their argument for it's like the it seems like the same processing the brain of an addiction.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's I think that's where they like, you know, you go through when they say withdrawal, the all the like fake promises.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, I'll never you know meet with this person again, and I I feel so guilty.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's more like the behavior of the addiction.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I I I agree.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think I think we need better nuance for that than just in the DSM.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: DSM.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not and so it's like I don't work in that realm.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I that's my naive understanding of it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm always willing to like if someone has a better explanation of it, I'm always willing to like be open to them.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So uh we've interacted, uh and I'm we've never interacted face to face, so I think we've interacted via direct message, and I am curious.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you had messaged, you told me one time because I had asked what your experience about is around estrangement or and you had shared a story about your father and forgiveness.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I'm wondering, would you be willing to kind of share that experience?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And did that lead you to did that help lead you to the the marriage and family therapy?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: And and my dad's alive, and he's we have a close relationship now, but he was an alcoholic, and there was there was some real yeah, there it was not easy growing up in the 80s, you know.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: There's yeah, it was very, very, very hard for me.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um was he can I can I ask questions about it?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: I sure yeah, absolutely.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, was it more of like was he a happy drunk, a mean drunk?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, very, yeah, very mean.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I remember, you know, just hearing, you know, abuse toward my mom and me, and a lot of lot, yeah.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_02: I remember that quite a bit.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I spent a lot of yeah, I think I I then kind of got addicted to porn myself, uh, because dad was.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: And I kind of sought out a lot of girls.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: I my my my escape actually was sex in in high school.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'd never really got into the substances that much.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_02: And and so I I I had a lot of anger, a lot of anger toward him.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of yeah, a lot of hate.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think uh my faith really helped me with that because I started seeing my own tendencies to do things like manipulate and you know, and treat girls like objects and you just sleep with them.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think I that was that was that when you say your faith helped you, that was in your 20s?
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_02: In my twenties, yeah, in my early 20s before I met my wife and everything.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I I think I I saw like a lot of my own tendencies to to I had so much anger toward him, but then I saw myself like treating girls and cheating on girlfriends and you know, just not being kind to them, you know, acting like I was kind, but then like doing stuff like that behind their back.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_02: And and I think it was like taking the log on my own eye, like who am I to judge?
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I then I started to forgive him, but it wasn't until like that helped a lot, but then about 10 years later, I think I still had like a lot of hurt inside that I didn't I I hadn't moved past.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_02: And I read Daniel Siegel's book, The Parenting from the Inside Out, and I I I was interested in my dad's story.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like, how did you become who you were?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_02: And in my my degree program, we were called to like do geneograms, which is like family patterns.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: And I just called my dad and I just like, dad, tell me who you were.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: And he talked to me about his own neglect and he talked to me that how what his attraction toward alcohol was.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_02: And and I had this long conversation with him, and I just got off the phone, I just started crying.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, because I felt like I just I like I got my dad.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like I I instead of this transparent quote, I forgive you or hate you, it's like, okay, it's kind of like a breaking bad experience, you know.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, I get Walter White now while he died.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I I felt like I was able to just understand him.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: And and that was very freeing for me, and both as uh Lisa's later and I I I that really, really helped.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I saw the benefits of that, both as as a husband, but also as a dad, that I'm not just doing the opposite of my own father, but like I could I could understand him and forgive him and Yeah.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: And do you have siblings that kind of have that similar experience?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Older brother has estranged himself from the family.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Haven't spoken to him in close to eight years.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_02: He still holds on, probably to the most anger.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: My other siblings have we all have really, I would say, good relationships with dad, my father.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: He's changed a lot.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_02: He's like taken a lot of accountability after my mom died of cancer.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_02: He kind of stepped up to the plate, started taking amends, asking.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't ever, I never felt like he sat us down and said, I please ask, you know, I ask you for forgiveness.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember that.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: I remember him calling, and I could tell he was more remorseful.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that helped.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it was more the work was really more on me.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: You know, now he's he's unfortunately has dementia, but he's doing a lot better.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_02: He started, you know, he started doing, he started going to church and just becoming a kinder person.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_02: So he was very involved in my own kids' lives, and you know, they really loved him and still do.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so it's like, yeah, I think that's so.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are you are are you able?
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, are you kind of saying that you didn't hear like, hey, I'm sorry for this, but it was a like a a change like a vague yeah, it's more of a more of a change behavior.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Although, you know, he still had a tendency to I think he thankfully gave up drinking, so that helped, you know.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_02: I tell you, alcohol, man.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's I think it's the worst drug out there.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean a lot of people say like cooking.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I would agree with, I would agree with you.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I even though I do like a beer with you, you know, but I still like I you know, not I I gotta, you know, I gotta anyway, but I would I yeah, it it's taken a it's taken a it took a while, it took a while, but it I think there was a lot of a lot of healing that that occurred.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I honestly think we could probably talk about stories of where couples would be completely fine if alcohol was not involved in a relationship.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, yeah, yeah.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's so destructive for sure.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_02: I've seen affairs, I've seen abuse, I've seen neglect I I uh I people still in jail to this day, uh you name it because right.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, for sure.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I appreciate you sharing that because I I mean yeah that's part of your story.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do you think that impacted you like in a way where it's like, oh, I can do this marriage and family therapy piece or yeah, yeah.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I think I I I I think one of the things that helped, like, I am really comfortable with chaos.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_02: I will say that because I grew up in a lot of it.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: So if I'm sitting with like a borderline patient, or maybe even a narcissistic, you know, patient, or somebody that's just like, you know, has a tendency to not tell me the whole truth.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_02: I I I see a lot of bullshit.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I do.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: I think that gave me I'm I'm okay with like just just a whole world of shit, you know, and it's like I'm fine.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm like totally fine.
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think that I think in my past has actually been used as an advantage to like sit with families and they're just arguing and chaotic and all this like total confusion.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm just kind of sitting there and my heart heart rate is 65 beats a minute, and I'm drinking my coffee, and just like there's no I don't think I could have handled that if I had just grown up in just this stable, safe home.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe, maybe I maybe so.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean it it is interesting because I I think that like I I consider myself lucky because I grew up in a fairly I would say stable and safe home, and I can I experience that as well, like people in front of me in chaos, and I view it as kind of outside of that bubble of chaos for myself.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but but then I think I've seen probably on social media now, but younger therapists who say, Well, I can't work with this kind of whatever because it reminds me too much of my mom or my dad or my own experience.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm just I I don't have an answer for how to solve that.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just think I've seen that now more than any you do bring up a good point.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: I think we actually need the security to go back to the chaos.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I I had experienced security and then love, and especially in my marriage, and then later in my life had experienced a lot of that.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_02: And then I think my heart, my heart rate was good.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: You bring up a good point.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think if I had never experienced security or love, I probably would have had a lot more counter-transference.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I wonder if there's a balance there.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I I I do think, you know, the secure bond is essential for our our growth.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: And my mom was that for me uh my whole life, and she was that secure person.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it it was pretty devastating when she died because she was this like safe, secure, very loving, kind of had your parents divorced or had they stayed together.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_02: No, yeah, they stayed together.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: So that yeah, so but yeah, I I I that's a good point.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder if like you need you need both.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_02: You need if you're gonna enter into that, I hope you have that as a foundation.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: And that's also like it certainly would be helpful.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: 100%, yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: And you yeah, and also I'm glad I exonerated and forgave because I think if I still was really angry, yeah, I think I probably just like some of those younger therapists, I would have been holding on to a lot of counter-transference.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: Do you what do you think?
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I mean, I'm not again not wanting to talk specifically about estrangement, but this idea that what do you think for like your brother, for example?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: He'll never see this, probably.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't know if you could talk, give your opinions openly about it, but yeah.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think keeps him from like doing any kind of forgiveness and reconciling?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well, substances haven't helped, you know.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's one thing I really, you know.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: I hope he gives them all up.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_02: If he's hearing this, I love you.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I hope one day you do.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I really do love my brother, I really miss him a lot.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_02: He's one of the smartest person I ever met.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: You know, he uh was studying piano in uh the Chicago Infosymphony Orchestra at 14 years old.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_02: And one day, one weekend, this is kind of a funny story.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: He got he just got totally shit faced and he was in New Orleans, and he was like, I think I'm gonna study for the bar exam.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_02: And he did, and he got second, he got number two in the state of Louisiana just like wow after just like completely getting yeah, messed up for the whole weekend and then just like study for like two hours.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: But well, I think I think correct me if I'm wrong, I think Louisiana is one of those few states where you don't actually have to have a law degree.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can just take the exam.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right, yeah, you just passed the bar.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_02: And he got second highest that year, and he studied for like four, like two or three hours over a weekend.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And after he got had some fun in New Orleans, he's the funny So is he a lawyer?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, he does he's not even you know he's even working.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think he just he holds on to yeah, I don't know what has kept him all these years.
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_02: I have seen it hurt him.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: I really have blind him even because he's you know, just the the refusal to let go.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you know, and I I've seen that with clients, I've seen that with a lot of people.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I don't I don't think anybody's obligated to.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: I think it has to be free.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_02: But I yeah, I'm I think the substances have really, really hurt.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_02: It's that's that's not done, that's not you know, that's only done harm.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, you know, but I I I love him, always will, but uh it's it's you know, he's he's just kind of cut himself off.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: He's doesn't want anything to do with any of us, really.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I yeah, my s well 2021, my sister, I think, and if she ever sees this, I want to have a relationship with you, but I think my sister has borderline personality disorder, and so she she would often split the splitting process that happens with that, and so one time I just decided I'm done with this, and when you're ready to get help and have a relationship again, then let's have a relationship.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I'm in the wrong is what what I've heard.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I think that's you kind of need to do that.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm pretty sure Chris has, yeah, my brother, yeah, some real but I don't know.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: I actually think I took the Lester course on personality disorders, and he said you have to be six months sober, and then we could diagnose you with a PD or not a PD.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't think he's experienced six months of sobriety in a very, very long time.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't, you know, not yeah.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_02: I just I wish that yeah, I wish him the best though.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: But okay.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Now is your is your wife in any kind of mental health field?
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, she yeah, she's she's English, she was English major.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_02: She'd suffered with depression.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: She was, you know, when I first met her, but she takes medications, you wouldn't even think it.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_02: But her mom is in the her mom's a therapist, which is great.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: And no, which I actually like that.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_02: I come home and you know, I'm I'm seeing all these abuses and affairs and traumas, and then I come home and she's like angry because not angry, angry, but you know what I mean.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, you know, Lizzie wasn't listening today or something, over silly stuff.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_02: And oh, this is so nice to come home to this because I don't need more drama, I don't need more drama in my life.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: She gets on me because I'm the one that always says, Babe, you're not validating me.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_02: She's like, Come on, Peter, you know, grow up here.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why do I have to validate my wife?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: My wife, when people say, Oh, what's it like to have a therapist for a husband?
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she goes, Well, he does do well at communication.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, right.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_00: I take I take that as a compliment.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_02: No, for sure.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: I get burned out.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: Do you ever come home and just feel burned out though?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Because I I'm not always the best listener when I come home.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm kind of that's me.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: I I like it.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: I am I I was who was I talking to?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so my wife and I we like to like kind of veg out in the evening and watch a show, and so nice shows eventually are over, right?
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_00: So then you gotta find your next show.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, Oh, I've heard about this new show called This Is Us, and I don't think they make it anymore.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically family a drama about family family problems, and I was like, Yeah, I don't want to watch that show.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't no way.
• 32:27
  unknown: Right.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I would rather watch like a CIA type show that is not even really real.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I think I have the sweet spot with my schedule where I come home and I still can I still can engage.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably more during COVID, actually, where it was harder to engage because all I was doing was telehealth.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And and telehealth, I don't know, it just sapped the the energy out of me because in person is so much.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if you didn't know better.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah, I know.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: I would much rather see you in person than over telehealth.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's me too.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and there is a man, I know we were talking about reading, and there was a book that I read, and I can't remember the name of it now, but it was talking about how to essentially have a full practice and to be very intentional about working with the people that bring you energy.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I definitely families and couples bring me energy.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um the individual individual work is much more challenging, like energy-wise, for me.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't schedule a lot of individuals.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I definitely value like conflict with couples and families.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh I know it's possibly a weird thing to say, but um I'm energized by it because there's more than just me and someone else talking about their depression in in the room.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, fascinating.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh so I don't know if you find that yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_02: I wonder, I wonder if we go through like phases because I used to love working with kids, and then I had like I think my second was born, and then I noticed that I was spending more time with these kids, and then I was come home and I wouldn't, so I stopped seeing kids for a while.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, and I used to see so many couples got trained in the Gottman and all this other stuff, but now I've just been so tired, and now I've gotten recently trained in personality disorders, and now I'm now I'm going and now I'm starting to see kids again.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I wonder if it's if it just like ebbs and flows, maybe with our own energy.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm right there.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be couples, but right now I'm kind of taking a break a little bit.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: I still see them, but I'm getting kind of worn out with them, and now I'm focused on individuals.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_02: But give me five years with working with personality disorders.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'd probably be burned out with that.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_02: I probably want to see my couples again.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny because even as even as we're talking about this, I like people that the five people that will see this, I want them to understand.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's like Peter and I don't hate couples, no, no, hate individuals, right?
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: Right, yeah, it's just it there's this energy thing that happens where we're just being honest that I sometimes don't have the energy for working with an individual.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: But it's very dreaming.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: That's where I struggle, even on TikTok and Instagram, because I I feel like I I'll even some of my critics are like, Well, you're a therapist, you should know this, this, and this.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, Well, I'm not your therapist.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, you know, like I'm just a normal guy, man.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I'm off the clock, right?
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I and sometimes the hardest thing about this, like we're still human and we're still like, you know, I'm not, it's not like I'm always anyway.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_00: You should be all things to all people at all times.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: I know, right?
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: Is what happens, yeah, happens on TikTok, happens on social media, I think.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: So you have written well, you were into the cuddling.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: I want to hear about this.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, sure.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, talk to me about this because that's how I was first introduced to you on I think social media, where you were talking about cuddling, and I was like, What?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: What is what is he talking about?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_00: So please explain this.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, well, it's actually a Gottman thing.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I met him and he had a fight, not a fight, but like he strongly disagrees with, he told me this privately.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was like he, Sue Johnson, and and Julie Gottman were very, very against Esther Perell, way back in 2018.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I said, Dr.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Gottman, tell me about that.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_02: Why are you so against her?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, This is what he said.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_02: It had nothing to do with all the stuff with open uh you know affairs, even though it was like, because he's against cuddling.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, Oh, I was not expecting that answer.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I and he's very pro-cutdling, you know, like very much so.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: And I anyway, I started and lo and behold, there's actually quite a bit of good research out there that says it like lowers cortisol and heart rate.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually notice a difference whenever I sometimes I'll sleep downstairs because my dog sometimes has to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night so she doesn't go on the floor.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'll even look at my own heart rate variability.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's always it's sometimes it's not as good as what I'm just like.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love to cuddle with my wife.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: I really do.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: I was trying to, yeah, I was trying to just make it both personal but also somewhat science-based.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: I actually wrote an article that for for people if they ever wanted to get it.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's on my little stand store.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: With all the research behind it.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: And or maybe your heart rate's up because that dog.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe irritating you.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: She is she has a little golden doodle.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I mean, I think that was I I just started kind of getting into that.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: But also had a lot of couples that there's no intimacy.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And I usually start with that.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, what about just like spooning?
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a big fan of spooning or just cuddling, you know, just like holding each other.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, are you okay with doing that?
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I do notice that that's a really good segue, just to, you know, for a lot of my couples that are, you know, they haven't they haven't been intimate, haven't had sex in two, five.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_02: The longest I've ever heard was 14 years.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe maybe 17 actually.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_02: And so I usually that's usually kind of my my go-to uh what I try to assign, I suppose.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: I just want you to do it like just for a few minutes, just try to feel each other's heartbeat, heart rate, you know, and just or heartbeat, yeah, and uh can't feel heart heart rate, but uh heartbeat, and just put your head on his chest or her chest and just sit with each other, you know, and spoon and kiss it, kiss each other's arm.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: But I hate physical touch, I hate physical.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know, you know, the whole love language.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: I I don't want to get into the debate about the science of love.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: But but I I do think like even today at a couple that yeah, the the wife doesn't physical touch is not really her thing, but it is the husband's, and so then they're mad at each other, and yeah, he she's trying to repair, and then he's mad and doesn't want the repair, so then she feels rejected and and and stuff.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so, how do you address that with cuddling?
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because there may be someone's like, Yeah, I'm down for cuddling, and the other half is like, I'm not a big fan of that.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's a good question.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, Gobman says this too.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's one of those like learn things.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, my oldest is not a cuddler, she never, I don't know, she ever will be.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_02: I try to Lizzie, come here, and she's like, Because my youngest, who's eight, she will hold you like a little chameleon for hours.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I think wait till she's 16.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: She wants to be able to do that.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_00: Wait till she's 16.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_02: Well, even when Lizzie was gosh, even when she was two, like we she's always been that way.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, every I mean you've got yeah, you've got kids.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, yeah, you could see the little personnel personality.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: Elies kind of in the middle.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think he likes to cover, yeah, he's fine.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: But I he often talks about just like it's it's one of those things that you just the more you do, the better you get at it, the more receptive you do, the receptor receptive you are.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_00: So essentially it's saying fake it till it feels yeah, kind of, yeah.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_02: A little bit of that.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I should verify, I actually was not, I'm not a cut.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I um I only just recently kind of fell in love with cuddling.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like you.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_02: I I wasn't very I'm I'm Swedish, right?
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_02: My dad is Swedish and my uncle is Italian.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_02: One of the biggest conflicts, honestly, is that my my my Italian uncle will get really, really close to you and want to always be in your face.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: And my dad is like, get the heck away from me.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of got that.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I've grown as a 49-year-old man, it turns 50 in two months.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_02: I I I've actually grown to like cuddling a lot more in the past, you know, a few years.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: And does your wife like, I guess, is the she does, yeah.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_02: She's always she likes that I've converted over.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_02: So that's um, but now I yeah, I it's it's it's working.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: But is she so?
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm taking guesses.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like, uh does she homeschool?
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_02: She does, yeah.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: She does classical education, classical, yeah, CE, it's called.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you teach our kids, you know, the Latin.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's funny because it's like the do they do like a once-a-week co-op thing?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: They do, yeah.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and we're like the we're almost like the same person, right?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, interesting.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I like I'm the main income earner, and then my wife, we did classical conversations with our kids as well.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, like Latin and debate and mock trial.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that happened.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: Excited about that, yeah.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_02: As well, how old are your how old are your kids?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Uh oh man, my so my oldest is 27, and then my youngest is 14.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: My two youngest uh have Down syndrome, so they're not in the classical system, but my 18-year-old we just shipped her off to Australia to go to a Bible school in Australia.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: So wow, and we just got a Norwegian exchange student, which is gonna be interesting for the school year.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: So oh wow, oh that sounds fun.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, kind of interesting.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, well, it's all it I'm not I mean, I'm glad that she's here, but what it means is now I'm tied to our public school system where I have to probably take her places or my wife has to take her places, yeah, right, and things like that.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we've never had to do that because we've always just homeschooled, so yeah, it'll be interesting.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: That's really cool.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_00: I go ahead.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I never thought we would even homeschool until recently, you know, until I think we we really made the choice before COVID, which I'm so glad we did, because that would have my oldest at the time was she would have been seven going out eight.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: So she probably would have had two years behind a screen.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: And uh yeah.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think that really impacted negatively a lot of kids, unfortunately.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like having having to do that.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure there's studies on it that are out there.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: So how do how does how did your experience with your dad and kind of your reconciliation, how does that kind of make you view estrangement?
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now here's where we will talk a little bit about it.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: Sure, yeah.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, I well, I I I probably am a little, you know, I'm I'm probably a little biased.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I did grow up in a pretty rough environment, and then I started seeing I'm like, you're cutting off your dad because he voted for Trump when he paid for your education and he paid for your wedding, and he's actually a really, really sweet father.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And honestly, gosh, I would have loved to have that experience for them, and you haven't spoken to him in six years, and you're you're on social media and you're talking bad about how toxic he is.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I think there's an element of that that I I I'm I have to admit, I'm like, come on, man, you know, I I know what you have, and I see it.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_02: In fact, just this morning, I Family, you could tell like this.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you could you could kind of tell what is what has been like a pretty good parent and probably a parent that really messed up.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's just my experience.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you get to know their family history and how they raise their kids and a genuine love and a interest and a secure bond.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, you said I don't think you could fake a lot of that, like a in a long history.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: And and also I would, you know, I I think my relationship with him probably affected in that way, but also the healing of a of the healing of of um exoneration for myself.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_02: I I was even telling my my parents, like, I'm actually here for these kids.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: I really do want them, especially with parents like that, to let go of just the vitriol and you know, and the you know, the some of the hate that I often see toward pretty again, no parents perfect.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm sure, you know, my my kids when they get older, they're gonna hey dad, I wish this, this, and this.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_02: And but and I I I I think it's really good for your own mental health.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_02: I I also yeah, I think it was, I think a lot of that has has you know veered me into that that pathway, I think.
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_02: I'm still learning a lot, you know.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_02: I I I've spent all my years probably picking on the parents actually until recently, because I almost feel like okay, now you're just putting in the towel.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_02: Because, you know, as a family therapist, kids will put kids are often put in the middle, and a lot of, you know, you're especially in divorce and a lot of you know, pitting one kid against the other and gosh, what that does to a lot of kids' mental health.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: I have picked on parents for the past 15 out of 18 years, but with the estrangement piece, I felt like it was like almost like putting in the towel with some of that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I you know, cutoff is just I will not talk to you again.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_02: I see as very different than like, no, dad, if you're gonna drink, I'm I'm out.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I'm I I'll see you, I'll see you next weekend.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: I see that as not cutoff, it's just like learning to communicate.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, that what you're just describing as a boundary, right?
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're gonna this is what I'm going to do, right?
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Essentially.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Do you think so with your own, but you never estranged from your dad though, right?
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Or did you?
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of did for about a year and a half, I would say.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_02: I probably wouldn't have called it that at the time.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't really want a lot to do with him for about maybe even longer than that, actually, looking back.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe even two years.
• 46:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_00: And did you tell, did you explain, was that boundary there?
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, if you're gonna keep drinking, I'm I can't do this.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, at the time he wasn't, it was more his anger.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: I did eventually I started kind of growing a backbone a little bit, and you know, I was kind of I after I become a Christian, I became such a people pleaser.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I I this is where in grad school I started having a youth.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_02: There was a guy at my I was part of a reform university fellowship at App State, and he kind of discipled me to be more assertive, not to be always telling people what I what they want to hear.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was very much like give, give, give.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then while I was doing it, I was still kind of bitter a little bit toward my father.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I actually learned how to be dad, I'm not listening don't talk to me that way, you know.
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_02: All right, I need you to back off.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_02: And look, if you have something to say, let me know.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: I would just just like that.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I wouldn't raise my voice, scream.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then actually I use that even now with psych patients at the hospital when I'm getting out of hand, you know.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: I I know how to be a lot firmer than that.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I think I learned tactics that that really helped me in the long run to be real direct without being without losing your, you know, losing your temper, which I don't think you have control in that situation.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Just be I mean, that's emotional regulation, is what you're trying to say.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, kind of like what you said about your sister.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was that's awesome.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like, look, I need you get I need you to get some help, but I'm tired of splitting.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_02: And when you're ready to do that, let me know.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_02: That's not that's not cutoff.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: That's just like, you know, that's a that's a clear well and she can't if someone and if someone were to say, Well, why is your brother not you know interacting with you?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: She knows if she was honest, she knows clearly the reason why.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not like so.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: I am curious, like, what do you what do you think about this?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's a I call it a trope, the trope of, oh, I don't know why my kids are in no contact with me.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious your thoughts on that.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it's funny because I I got to hear Matthias Baker, and he was pretty good.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: He's been doing, he does a lot more work with it.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I went to this conference in Chicago, and I also got to talk to Joshua Coleman, and then, you know, and then Dr.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Pilimer.
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_02: All three of those people, especially the latter two, have done Pilimer's done the most research on this.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want you to mention the one lady that's like a curse word to me.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: So no, I you know, yeah, and I I behind closed doors, I'll love to tell you that I I've come to maybe agree a little bit more with so yeah, we won't talk about that now, but tell me.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe later.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: No, no, but anyway, with those, yeah, I got to I got to hear a whole lot.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, and and it was it was actually really helpful that they were that's that's not you know, and I I would probably agree with you if you're completely surprised, you know, maybe you're you're kind of missing things.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_02: However, some of the political stuff, like again, I do hear, I do hear family members are like, and when I did that survey of 7,500 uh parents, they were like, I really don't know why.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I do think that there's some truth to that with some of these, some of these parents.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't say it's the vast majority.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_02: I think when you when you really kind of help them narrow down, they're like, okay, we were talking about this, this, and dad was kind of saying this, and you know, there's a narrative, but I think the biggest surprise is just like the all of a sudden we're having a great relationship with it, you know, and then cut off.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_02: And I keep hearing this more and more and more.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: Right, but then I mean I hear that too, but then yeah, do you really again?
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_00: We're just making guesses here.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you really think then it was a great relationship?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: If it was just randomly they went no contact, and they have the parent has no clue.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, well, I could tell you a little bit about the person I just you know, and this is this is so general, I don't think I'm breaking any confidentiality, but yeah, they would have described, and even the sister and even the family members, they're going, they're having a really it was a very positive relationship.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Speaking, and then the 2024 election came.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: The parents were more conservative, the child was leaning a lot more toward like democratic socialism America, and they had seen that if you voted for Trump, you're a you're a threat to my existence and my identity.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_02: Parents were putting that kind of in the backbone, they didn't even want to talk about politics, but because he had won in 2024, they hadn't even spoken to this child for the last two years.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: I do hear stuff like that over and over, especially how political are to me, uh but I guess to me that's a reason.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if I don't agree, even if I think maybe that's not a great reason, it's still a reason.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's the ones that's a good point.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's the ones that are like I have zero clue on why this has happened.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that I have found I would agree on that part.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I have found like at least on TikTok when a parent when I you know, because I stitch people, some people think it's great, others don't, but whatever.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: But uh I can see a parent that says, I have no idea why, but then you can see in their videos there's like breadcrumbs that well, I can see why they have because you say these kinds of things or you do this kind of behavior, and so that trope of I don't know why, I think it does exist, but I don't I like to think again, there's no data on it, that it's not as prevalent as strange parents would have you think it is.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, would you agree or no?
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_02: I I I think I do, and the more I'm leaning into this, I'm trying to be even a more direct.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_02: I'm being careful at saying like that's what you know that I I yeah, there's two tropes.
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my mom deserved to be cut off because of this, this, and this.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think they can agree or dis we can agree or disagree with that, right?
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it's like like one group of one group of kids that are gonna be saying like my mom was a very toxic person who only talked about herself.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_02: And then when you talk to the mom, she was like, she has a totally definition of terms.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: And because these definition definition of terms are not being collaborated with the mom's definition of terms, in that sense, the mom has no clue why this cutoff has ever even occurred because her definition of terms is totally isolated from her own.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_02: And so I do think like Gen X and our own generation of millennials, like we're so much more used to conflict.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and the smallest, I do often see, and Jonathan Height talks a lot about this, like the anxious generation at the smallest amount of conflict will often cause the child to immediately feel triggered and they would want to come back, like they don't want to necessarily engage in any anything that's gonna cause them stress.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_02: I see that as a teacher at Endicott for you know, just like the smallest thing is is gonna really set them off, especially with COVID.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I think when they say, I quote, don't know, it's like that doesn't make sense why you would.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's part of life, you know, then in that sense.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: And I what where but there are times when I will see things in certain parents that I'm like, huh, we may need to really work on this because even in my small little interaction with you, I'm I'm seeing some not so great healthy dynamics.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I I I'm all about like knowing what you can work with in the here and now and bringing that in an amplif and bringing that out in an amplified way.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_02: So if a if a parent is like already being kind of passive aggressive in their communication, and I've only met with them for like, you know, just like not even met with them, but like yeah, interacting with them maybe in two or three times.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, ooh, okay, if you're doing this with me, yes, and you barely know me, you know, I yeah, that I agree, like that part, I thousand percent agree with you on that.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, okay, you're you're you're already being somewhat rude and demanding in some of the things I'm even saying, and you're like completely, totally, I don't know.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, yeah.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: But I would say that's not the vast majority of the ones that I work with personally.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_02: They really are like, I they have tried and tried and tried to reconcile, and they've overly apologized, you know.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, to the point where I'm like, okay, stop apologizing so much.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to kind of build your, I want you to build your core sense of value again and know who you are, especially apologizing when the when the child is saying very insulting things to them.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm like, there's nothing you have to do to keep chasing and apologizing for.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_02: I want you to again find your voice and then build your confidence.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_02: And then anyway, yeah.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's but yeah, I mean, I we could talk about we could probably talk about that a lot.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of conversation.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um so so I I don't want to take any more of your time.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: What I mean, the thought I had like I would love to be able to do this more regularly with you to kind of have these conversations back and forth about a variety of topics.
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: I had a I had, I'll I'll be the first to admit, I had a flying monkey at that conference, and they told me something Michelle said was that correct me if I'm wrong if you heard it, that you can't be you can't help an estranged person if you have estrangement in your life.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: Do you remember that being said by Michelle Wiener Davis?
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, not quite like that.
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_02: I I think it was I think she was more talking about like the patterns, like what may repeat themselves.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't remember her saying that, but um I I'll have to I'll have to it was a very strong the the person that told me this, it was like a very strong statement that you or you shouldn't be a therapist if you have estrangement in your own life.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, yeah.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: If I I didn't hear that personally, but if I would have really disagreed, okay.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: That's like if I got divorced from my wife, I can't help divorce couples.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, she she's the like when I was in grad school, she was like one of those pioneers for divorce busters, right?
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: She she was big into that, right?
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think that's that same logic would apply.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, you can never help a married couple if you've been divorced.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that rules out Gottman because he was divorced three times uh before he met Julie.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he said he finally got it right the fourth time, or maybe it was the third time.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember, but I mean he kept messing.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that's that's just according to him.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's when he's like, Oh, I better start cuddling.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's the solution, right?
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, maybe that's what it is.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and gosh, I and my faith actually would strongly disagree with that because one of my favorite books was by Henry Nguyen, The Wounded Healer.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: I love that book.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: That's actually one of my favorite therapy books, even though it's not a therapy book.
• 57:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's you know, is we wear broken vessels and we bring water where broken vessels are, and you know, and and we're all trying to I think I think if you're allowing transference, but I mean that's why I want to be open even with my own relationship.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: That I I don't mind admitting that probably you know, I I I have a bias.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think everybody has biases, everyone has a bias.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_02: But to yeah, but to admit like I can't help people.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: I don't remember her saying that, but I may I may have been checked out going to the bathroom.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: What but what book are you reading a book currently?
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: I am.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm reading I'm reading East of Eden, and which I love.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Steinbeck's my favorite, one of my favorite writers, and I don't read a lot of therapy books, believe it or not.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_02: So and then yeah, I'm reading I'm reading, well, uh Joel Paris, How to Treat Borderlines.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_02: So I am reading that.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that is yeah.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds absolutely miserable, but it's actually really good.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: If you like it, uh that's true.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_02: I actually love it.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: I love Joel Paris.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_02: He's a very good writer.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: He is.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_02: He's uh yeah, he's kind of a cranky 85-year-old who tells it as it is.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_02: He's very clear.
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like clear, crisp writing.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: That's just me.
• 58:44
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 58:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, maybe I'll have to pick that up.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I have I have absolutely appreciated you coming on.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_00: Let me pick the brain, talk about things.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I definitely want to do this off.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to do this more regularly because I think I I enjoy it.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to do things that I enjoy.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if if this is something that we can do regularly, we can talk about it.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_02: I like I like talking to people that are I see things differently too.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that's that's that's my yes.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I probably wouldn't have talked about stuff so controversial if I wasn't able to be able to have that conversation.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: So well, when I tell when I make my TikTok video about this video, people will be shocked.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've tried you know who Dormat Mom is.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_00: You've talked to Dormat Mom, Laura Wellington.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: She she's blocked me, she filed a formal complaint against me with my Department of Health, and I still wanted, I would love to have her on to have a conversation with her.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: So if you have any influence over her, tell her to come on with me.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, all right.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'll tell her to come on.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure she won't still, but yeah.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, thanks for coming on, Peter.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was great talking to you, and I look forward to future conversations.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.