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Ephesians 3:13-19 with Jon Dillon · Pursuing the Heart

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is uh pursuing the heart.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: We this is the first time that we are in a different state recording the podcast.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're gone big time.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going big time, huh?
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that deep voice, the that deep, lovely voice is John Dylan.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going, John?
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: Cast world.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hello.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to an undisclosed location somewhere in Martin's garage.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: Somewhere in Martin's garage in a little town in Ohio.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: And this is going to be awesome today.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: And uh this is pursuing the heart.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know this, this is my name is Scott Blewitt, and the uh guest on tonight is uh John Dillon.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: And uh John, tell us a little bit about yourself, man.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: I am the pastor of Stillwater Community Church in uh yeah, in Covington, Ohio.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've been here about seven years.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I'm also the host or a host of a podcast called The Two Trees, uh, which aims to bridge the culture gap between the ancient writers of scripture and a modern audience because there's a lot of stuff in the Bible that we read and we're like, I have no idea what's going on, and this seems weird.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Why is this in here?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: And usually that's because it made total sense to the original audience, and we're disconnected from that a little bit.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: So our goal is to kind of walk through pieces of scripture or ideas that are present in scripture and just help people read their Bible on a deeper level.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: So that's what we do.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's awesome, man.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you have a wife?
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: I have a wife, I have two kids, I have a dog, I published a book called The Way of Eden, which is which is a lot of fun.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can get that on Amazon, right?
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah, you can get it anywhere books are sold so long as you buy it on Amazon.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And it's called what's the name?
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's called The Way of Eden.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I highly recommend it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: I bought like four copies and I've passed them out to different people, and I kept one for myself.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so the book is about how to resist the darkness by bringing joy and light and hope into the world.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so when we talk about waging war uh in a world that is incredibly violent, we have a tendency to think like that means get angry or get aggressive.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And the way that the Bible walks through what the church is meant to be.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: When we resist pride, we do it with humbleness, when we resist anger, we do it with being a peacemaker.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's kind of uh a little bit of a of a hat tip to my home back in Appalachia, and uh it just kind of is me walking through some ideas that I wanted my church to think about, and it's uh it was a lot of fun to write.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I I enjoyed it.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's out there, I'd love for you guys to read it.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, from a guy from southwest Georgia, it's a very easy read.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's very thin, it's not a lot of pages.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I appreciate that.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted a book that I could give to like the farmers in my church because this is farm country, and they're they're not gonna pick up a 500-page book.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I can talk a long time.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: So like I had a lot of editing, and so writing something small was was very intentional.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted each chapter to be just a couple pages and then some reflection questions at the end, uh, but it's definitely not a heavy tone, it's 66 pages, so it's it's light.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's very good.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I highly recommend it.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, my wife even really enjoyed it, and uh I know some other people have read it and they enjoyed it as well.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: That makes me glad.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and um so uh John, uh we are pursuing the heart.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: God uh pursued us, now we pursue him, and uh this is who we are, and we try to have an open discussion uh going through different books of the Bible, and we happen to be in Ephesians.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: But before we get there, uh can I ask you to open up in prayer?
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, Father, just ask your blessing over everyone who's listening.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_01: I ask God that you give them grace and peace and hope and joy, that you would open doors and give them, Lord, just a deeper, more meaningful relationship with you and with their community.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it's in your name we pray.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: Amen.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh John, I know you're probably very familiar with Ephesians, but uh the first book, what the first chapter, what we've realized, it lays like a foundation of who Christ is and just the rich richness of his grace and mercy that we have, and then things that we are we have access to.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like it it explains like we're sitting seated in the high in the high in the heavenly places with him, and then it talks about a lot of stuff about in him, he, we absolutely you, and you have to like okay, all right, who's he talking about, who's he referring to, who's the he, who's the him, who's the we, who's is you uh singular or you plural?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_01: All y'all, the biblical way to say it in English, and this is not me just being Appalachian, it is properly translated y'all, right?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is the plural you, yes, and well in southwest Georgia, it is y'all, y'all.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's the same in in the ancient world, yes.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's the these modern Americans trying to scrub us out of the dictionary, they're out of sync.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's a reminder, too, like when we read these um texts that you can be plural or it could be singular.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: We also look at the verbs like is it past tense, is it present tense, or is it future tense?
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um, and we look at that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we we went through the first chapter and um it we laid that out, Woody and I, and then the second chapter, uh Woody wanted to come back on, and uh we did that one as well.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, last time we had a guest on, uh uh Luke came on and we opened uh chapter three of Ephesians and just talking about Christ, Gentiles, um, talking about the body itself, and we kind of like it started at the end of two, and it's continued in three, where there is no distinction.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: There is no distinction between Jew, Gentile, no more.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: There's no distinction between Greek, barbarian, there's no distinction between slave or free woman free person.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: Where if you believe in Christ, you are in one family.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and that that awesomeness and I like like it kind of kills racism, kind of.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's no room for that because if you're a believer, you can be anybody.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, if you think about like where this book went to, like it goes to uh what we call today Turkey or Asia Minor.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Ephesus is one of the biggest cities in the world.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's a harbor town, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's close, yeah.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: This is a place like stuff's moving to and coming out.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's home of one of the seven wonders of the world.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: But people go to Ephesus to do business.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not just a place where like everyone's born there and they stay there.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like if you're living anywhere close by and you're doing business on a big scale, Ephesus is where you're going.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was a major thoroughfare, and and it was uh did a lot of trade there, but there was a huge amount of people of wealthy people there, and very it was a very highly high-end city where kind of like Carmel by the Sea in California, where it's like very high end, and you do have some people that are in the lower class, but mainly it's a lot of wealthy people.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it kind of and you can see this because the book of Ephesians is not the only place in the Bible that there's information addressed to the church at Ephesus.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the books of 1st and 2 Timothy are about the church at Ephesus.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the book of Acts talks about the founding of the church in Ephesus, and then also you have uh a direct message given to the church in Ephesus in the book of Revelation.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, even though, like you think, oh, we just got this one book, we actually see the church in Ephesus in different stages of its development as you read through the rest of Scripture.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: Because Paul recognizes, okay, this church has some pretty big problems, and typically it has to do with the way that people are interacting with each other.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Roman society is built on ethnicity.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Where do you belong?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: You stay with your people.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if you went to a new city like Ephesus, you didn't just open up a business and buy property, like you had to know the guy who owns the business on this street.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, it's kind of mafia-like.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but that's how it was.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, if you want to do business here, you got to know a guy, and you're going to be doing business with people of your language, of your background, and of your gods.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so having a loyalty to your people and where you came from wasn't just a religious expression, it's deeply connected into who I am and the ability to put food on the table, who I am in the society and in the culture.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_01: And then along comes Christianity and it just flushes the whole system.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it says, I don't care what ethnicity you are, you are one people now.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so when Rome is dealing, like a lot of people think Christianity just really hated the Christians for they're not really sure.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: Well, the reason they they did, because everything about Christianity was upending the very fabric of Roman society.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's built on slavery, it's built on the top eating the little guy, and Christianity is the exact opposite.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: If you have power, you're supposed to wield it to benefit those underneath you.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, even like in Timothy, Paul is talking, he's like, listen, some of the ladies at your church, they are using the church to be like a fashion show, and they're wearing massive amounts of gold and jewels.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_01: And imagine, like, you're sitting in the service and you're like some poor kid who didn't eat that day, and the lady in front of you is literally wearing a million-dollar hat or like thousands of dollars.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like, wouldn't you be tempted to like grab some scissors and cut the gold out of her hair and then take off down the road?
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so Paul's talking about it, and he says, Listen, when you come into service, like it's not about shining the spotlight on you, it's about being one people.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: You you didn't eat with people who weren't your sort.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like if they were of a lesser um income bracket than you, or even sometimes of like a different political group, or even like anything like that, you would then have very hard lines about who you would eat with.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_00: You see that in Genesis, like a lot when you read the Joseph story, right?
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like how he ate by himself and all the Egyptians ate at a different way.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is ubiquitous across the ancient world.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: So when when Christianity comes in, one of the core elements of what Jesus left us is to worship the Lord by remembering the crucifixion and the resurrection at a common table.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're not saying, all right, we got the slaves back here and the free people up here.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let's have the upper crusties come at like 11 o'clock and the early guys, you got to come to like the 6 30 in the morning service.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone's there.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so you may actually be listening to the teaching of somebody way beneath you in the social stratus.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that Ephesians and Romans, they were super confused by this.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Everything about this fell upside down to them.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so when Paul is talking to this church, he's there's a lot of things that we listen and we're like, well, obviously, they would do that.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it's because you're 2,000 years into a world that has been reshaped by the message of Jesus.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: They're coming straight out of a pagan world, and not just a pagan city, but like the pagan city.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we talked about it on the first one, and uh Woody and I, that there is a big church there of one particular god that was there, it was like a huge big Yeah, it's the temple of Artemis or Diana.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so like when we think of like a church or like a place of worship, like we think of like a place where everyone goes to gather, like for a worship service.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Ancient peoples didn't think of temples that way.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like it wasn't a place for you to hang out and sit with your friends, it was a place for the god.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, this is like the uh palace of the deity.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like you would go there and make sacrifices, and sometimes there were rooms for you to have uh illicit relationships or like meals with like people you were making peace with, but the whole temple structure is designed around the idea of keep the gods happy, and so even if you don't worship the gods of Rome, you're expected to make them happy, make the offerings at the appropriate time, like you're paying off the mob.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: And Christians, like they walk in and they're like, Listen, we want to be part of this community, but I'm not worshiping Diana, or I'm not praying to that.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'll pray for you guys, but I'm not gonna pray to you.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And this causes massive, massive disconnect.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: As ultimately, Timothy is going to be murdered in the streets of Ephesus later in his life as he's teaching because of a riot that erupts about this idea.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, when we're thinking of it, we're like, Yeah, I love communion.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's so sweet and nice.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, to them, this is world-shaking stuff.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: What are the people around me?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Are they tools to be used or are they imagers of God?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so, Ephesus, this is one of my favorite books, man.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's awesome.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it sounds like it because you're I'm just sitting here letting you talk, man.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is great stuff.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: You guys, you I I've listened to you.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I know you guys have talked about it.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: I just get excited.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's fine, dude.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I'm just sitting here, I'm like, wow, okay, keep on going.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there's some colorful background here to understand when we go through these uh scriptures.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: John has laid it out really well.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Not saying that Woody or Luke didn't, uh, but hey, or Devin or Ryan that was on here.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But uh anyway, so we left off on 13 last week.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in my version, in the New American Standard, it's got a therefore.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the whenever I see a therefore, I'm like, hmm, I might need to read back.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: Always and to understand what this therefore or what the writer's trying to convey to me.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and Paul is the king of therefores and run-on sentences, therefores and buts.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he is the he loves this.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: So if you go back to say verse 11, it says this was in accordance with the eternal purpose which he carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord, in whom we have boldness and confident access through faith in him.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: So now this is like it reminds me of Hebrews, right?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can enter the throne room boldly.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: I could come to the I could come to the Father, I could come to Jesus boldly.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to come like a little worm, hey, you know, woe is me.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can just say, hey Lord, because if I want to talk to John, I just talk to John.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: True.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: If I want to talk to Jesus, I just talk to Jesus.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: And there isn't like, yeah, some people I've always been, I was taught a long time ago, you gotta come in reverence and you can't say certain things and and all that.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, if I'm gonna go to my father, I'm gonna talk to him.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be very open.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: He already knows it.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: He knows what you're going through.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Why wouldn't you just go boldly and just say, hey, I'm just dealing with this thing right now.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: I need your help.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it just stinks right now.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, think about it in the lens of like, okay, if you were an Ephesian and you've been going to temple your whole life, right?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_01: Since always, and you've been around, like your businesses are probably going for corporate trips to like offer a sacrifice when you're opening a new branch, or we just invested a ton in this product, we're gonna go make sure the gods are okay with this.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: You did not just go to the temple and like kick the door in and make yourself at home.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: Because a temple in Ephesus is not a church building like you were thinking of a place, lots of seats, and we want you to stay and talk.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like you get in, you get out, and you get it over with.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_01: You don't stick around because the gods are not your friend, they're not there to build a relationship with, they are sovereigns over everything.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when Jesus comes along, he's saying, No, no, no, those guys aren't imposters, those are demons masquerading as something else.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: I am welcoming you.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_01: You are the priests of the temple, right?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so literally, this is something they never would have heard before.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, like if this is a Jewish audience, then they're thinking of the temple in Jerusalem.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: But nobody in Ephesus would have had the thought uh independent of the massive temple structures in Ephesus because they're one of the seven wonders of the ancient world.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so the idea though was you're not welcome.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: This is not a place for you to stick around and just drop into whenever you want.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's no uh mingling or no after, like, hey, what's uh social?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Let's have a little social afterwards.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, they want you out.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like sometimes they would host like dinners and things, like you could you could come in, but like it was part of like sacrificial systems.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_01: And most of the building you don't have access to.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like you didn't just wander around because you felt like it.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh like at our church, it's not a real big place, but no one's upset to find you sitting downstairs in the basement next to the coffee pot, or not check.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you have the card that allows you to do that?
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't do that in other temples, like you didn't just go into the temple in Jerusalem and be like, So I heard you guys got like some show bread.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: I'm interested in having some snacks.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: You just didn't do it, like it was reserved for an elite.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: So the words boldness, confident, access through faith in him, meaning in Jesus.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: So those would be like, Oh, I can go in there boldly, I could go in there, don't have to do I can just go to him and I can just pray to him in any time.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: I can just pray to him.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, like I really struggled with prayer, like when I was growing up, because like I had a hard time with the idea of talking to an omniscient being and telling him what's going on.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, people would talk about man, I spent like an hour praying yesterday, and I'm like, how do you know that many sick people?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Because prayer to me was about listing things that are wrong and informing God so that he could do something about it, or like claiming a blessing, like, all right, God, I see this and I'm proclaiming like this has got to get done.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I just really struggled with it.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why am I tattling or informing a God that has unlimited power, knowledge, and wisdom since the creation of the world?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I always thought of prayer as something to do.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And years ago, I read a book by C.S.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: Lewis, it's called Letters to Malcolm and it's thoughts on prayer.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's the last book that he wrote.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: And having read the book, I came away with the idea that prayer is it's almost like a place, more so than it is an activity.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I am coming to be in the presence of my father.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes we talk and sometimes we don't.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's I read him scripture because I want to have something to say.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's about me being in his presence.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about me just chattering.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like it to me, it's that awkward moment when you get on the elevator with someone and they want to talk or like an airplane flight, and they're like, So, what are you doing?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Just don't talk to me.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't I don't want a small talk every time.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to sit by me on a plane because I will talk.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I don't have this problem because I look frightening and people don't want to talk to me.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but like I struggled with it, and so when I started to use scripture as like a script, like I would just read it to him, and there would be verses that my heart would stir with, and it'd be like, Oh yeah, God, I want to think about that for a minute and say, Man, even like the Lord's Prayer, Father, uh, your kingdom come well right here in traffic, because I am not loving my neighbor as myself as I sit here, or or all of these things.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm using the text as a way of approaching the Father.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, sometimes it is requests, but I'm welcome in his presence with these things.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: So even if it is chatter, it's okay.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and even if it is silence, that's okay.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: But if you think of prayer as like clocking in and clocking out, you're you're missing part of the the beauty of what it is.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a welcome sign to the presence of the Father.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: You have his attention.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's like an action that you love him and you wanted to communicate with him, and what and whatever that looks like like to you, way you explain that.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: That was great.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes it's just coming to him and being silent, or coming to him reading scripture, coming to him and that's right.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe even like this uh there's this one song.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was playing it in the living room.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I had the music, I had it cranked up, and I just was in awe.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just I had my hands up and I was just in that moment.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was worshiping, but uh, but I was more lifting the whole the I love the lyrics of that song, and I was just sitting there and my wife caught me, which was which is fine.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But she was just so she's like, I can't uh I was like, Yeah, this song is just really good.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: And uh just brought me in a reverence to that's a good word to describe that.
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's a reverence, it's uh and not like a watch your language, make sure you're you're talking fancy.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: Although sometimes you do that, it's it's along the lines of like, man, Lord, I want to be in your presence.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I want to talk with you, be with you.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and sometimes that means talking, and sometimes that means listening to music.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like in church, like we're like, okay, we're gonna have three songs and then we're gonna pray, and then we're gonna have announcements or whatever.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like, prayer is it's much bigger than that.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's the desire to be, and then the the it's the going to the Father.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so he's saying, Listen, you don't have to come to me and like terrified.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: Did I bring a strong enough sacrifice to get your attention?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as a matter of fact, even in the old testament, God did something that no other deity that I know of was doing.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: He said, Listen, if you want to come into my presence, then you know, bring a sacrifice.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: But all these other places have very high standards for what gets the God's attention.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: What the Lord does is he says, If you're wealthy, bring a bull.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: If you're middle class, bring a sheep, and if you're dirt poor, bring a pigeon.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you can get a pigeon with crackers and a blanket.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like it ain't that hard.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, what he does a pigeon on my front porch the other day, John.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: I just had to have picked it up and take it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: You should have.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's the idea, though.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, it's available to all of you.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And this is why Jesus gets so upset in the temple when he flips over the tables because they're charging people for pigeons, they're scamming the poorest of the poor.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: This was something that God intended to be an open door.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: They say, if you want to show respect to the Lord, bring your offering, but it's about coming to me.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a way to show your loyalty and love to God.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so when he sees these guys of like, yeah, we've got it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now we can scam a couple extra pennies out of these people.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh no, man, it's it's not okay.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: So in 13, this is what we're picking up today.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: It says, Therefore, I ask you not to lose heart at my tribulations on your behalf, for they are your glory.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we know this is one of the prison letters.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: We know that he's in prison, and if it's through Luke, he's writing this, and Luke is going to pass this letter back to Ephesus, um, or through whoever.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it he is going through some tribulations.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think he knows, and I think when he wrote this, it was later in life, and it was he's he recognizes that.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so it's hard to tell exactly when this occurs because actually, even the book of Acts doesn't give you uh the majority of Paul's life.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are major windows that are just left blank, and we know he did things that aren't referenced in the book, and he was imprisoned a lot.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: A lot, and so like just because he says, Oh, I'm in jail, and you're thinking, Okay, how often could that have been?
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it could have been all the time, it could have been all the time.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like he had a lot of moments where he wound up in the wrong side of powerful people because the message he was preaching was upending their hold on society itself, and so what he's bringing in here is he's saying, Listen, I'm not that messed up.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Matter of fact, this is pretty much proof that I'm doing a good job because they decided to come get me.
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, This is for your glory, and that is a word that every Roman resonated with deeply.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Greeks seem to have really pushed for knowledge, the Hebrews are always talking about light and understanding.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: If you wanted a word that describes a Roman, it's the word glory.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: This is what they're after, to have done a deed to be proud of that builds your family, builds your brand.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he's saying, Listen, this looks bad.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're like, okay, you got arrested.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: But he's also saying, no, this is for your glory.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: That this is actually a sign that I am engaging the enemy in a powerful way.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And and not just for his glory, but the Ephesians are saying this is for this is for your it's more eternal glory, too.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: Your part of it.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna last for yeah.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, absolutely.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is something that is well like the the Egyptians are famous for this, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: They have a concept called the name, uh the wren.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so like when an Egyptian pharaoh died, like they build these really cool places to hang out after they're dead, but they really thought that their eternal soul was connected to their name.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you struck the name off of something, you were damaging them in the afterlife.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the Egyptians aren't the only people doing this.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: The Romans have the same thing, like to do it for their name.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: The idea of like everyone who comes after Julius is called Caesar, Caesar Augustus, this name idea to be recognized by.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, what he's saying here is no, no, guys, this this isn't like some sideshow, this is the way it's supposed to go.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: We're in the middle of something exciting.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so for your glory, and then verse 14 it says, For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: There it is.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's the name.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so the thing in verse 14, we see his posture.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's bowing, he bowed his knees, my knees before the father.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that image of, you know, I was taught one time, I was I was um listening to someone one time, and they said this one pastor, he would always get on his hands and knees at the edge of his bed and pray.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I have this image of like Paul, like getting on his hands and knees and just praying to God, if it's not his hands, but still his knees and just praying.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then it says, I bow my knees before the Father, for whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: Get that next line in there as it goes back.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: It says that he would grant you according to the riches of his glory.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: You see, like the words are repeating here, very repetitive.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's not an accident, not an accident.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: This is a drum beat.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, and and this is something that John has taught me, and Heiser's taught me, and some other people have taught me in scripture.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: If it's repeated, and in a Jewish culture, if it's repeated three times, it's very important.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it and then Paul does this in his text too, with a repetition of similar name, uh, a name, and then like the word name here and glory, and he's gonna repeat it several times.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I want you to get this, I want you to grab a hold of this because this is awesome.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, this is this is the meat of what's going on.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, what you're seeing here is uh your your Bible may actually have a break here.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is all one letter, so like there's no chapters, there's no verses, there's nothing like that in the original text.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's broken up to help you find things.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: What happens here is Paul starts praying.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: This is the beginning of a prayer, and it goes through the end of this chapter.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so he does this in the beginning of the book back in chapter one.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Now he's he's just gone through like this didactic, he's teaching, and now at the end of the teaching, he's praying.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: And he's praying for them.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: And specifically, this prayer has three parts.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: He wants them to dwell and be established, he wants them to have the power to understand the magnitude of Christ's love, and he wants them to experience the fullness of God's presence.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so, if you want to like what's he praying about, like this is the thing, like this is a threefold prayer.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: And he does start it, and this is interesting to me, by kneeling down because sometimes we think, yeah, I don't have to kneel down when I go to God.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is no, you don't.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_01: But there are gonna be times you want to, like your prayer's not coming in clearer because like you've assumed the proper posture.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_01: No, but there are also moments where the physical body uh needs to be harnessed.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I lay down at night to pray and I'm super comfortable, there are no ends to those prayers, there's just sleep.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I heard this uh guy tell me talk one time, and he was like, Hey, I used to feel bad, like I'd be praying, and all of a sudden I'd wake up the next morning, but he's like, Hey, when I go into my mom's arms or my dad's arms when I was a little kid, sometimes my dad and I might be asleep together.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_00: You know, all of a sudden we're just like snoozing, snoozing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's okay.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like you're feeling the warmth of the spirit.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: There's a comfort and welcome there.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a welcoming thing, and don't feel bad if you go to sleep because I kept on feeling bad because I was like feel bad.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, man, let's shift the posture then to be like, okay, from God's perspective, right?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: I can lay down on the ground, I can be in my bed, I can be in my car, I can be on the mountain, I can be in the valley, God's gonna hear me.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: But I am a physical creature and I get distracted and my mind wanders.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, if I decide I'm gonna mow the grass and I get two passes through the grass, my wife may say, Don't worry, honey, I still love you and still let me mow the grass.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm frustrated because I set out to do a thing and I didn't accomplish the task.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I left it undone.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of your prayers are going to be affected by what you're physically doing.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: If you make it just a throwaway part of your life, then that's kind of used for just chatter.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've got something to say to God, you know, I'm moving through things, but there are also moments where something is super heavy on my heart and my life.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is a deep moment, like, and I want to stand up and talk to you, or I want to kneel down and talk to you.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I preach, I do this.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like there are times where I sit, I have like a tall stool and I'm talking, but there are times like when I want to like I just naturally I rise because I am a physical creature.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so the problem comes when you begin to think, in order to get my prayer really good, it has to look like this, sound like this, be like this.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't find that in the Bible.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: No, but if you're trying to develop a deeper prayer life and the whole time you treat it like none of this matters, you're gonna find that that's not so.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you really are like, you know what, I am gonna fast this morning and I'm gonna pray after, you'll have a different experience than you will if you just decided to sit down with a bowl of Cheerios and chatter to Jesus while you're at the back.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, it's not saying one or the other, both are okay.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because you're welcome in the presence of God however you want to come.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: You're not having to be like, oh, you're out of dress code, you're not allowed in here unless you put your tie on.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, uh, and that's that's not the case.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can preach in flip-flops or like fancy shoes, God don't care.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's the same.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: But when I then am approaching God and there's something heavy on me, I know I am a spirit, I am a spiritual being, but I am also encased in the flesh.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so sometimes I can do things with my flesh, like stand up or kneel down or lay down, uh, or get up early, or you go with all of those things.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we've all had moments where like God uh seemed to wake us up from our sleep, like I want to talk about this, and like, well, couldn't you have done this in the daytime?
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, he could have, but it's more meaningful.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_01: So, like what you're looking at, if you're looking at it through the lens of legalism, like it has to do X, Y, or Z.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like a Jewish person has a practice called davening.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you've seen Jewish people pray and they kind of lean forward and back, they rock.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I have seen that.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like they're flickering, like a candle flame, right?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: Is the idea.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to do that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: You can if you want.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: If you're in the middle of worship and your hands go up, like is it like the TV carry, or is this like the goal post holding a baby?
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: The baby, like it doesn't matter.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter, right?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: All of that is okay.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: What needs to happen is your soul needs to reach out to God and then do what feels like needs done.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_01: And for Paul, he hits his knees here.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is his father, but it's also his God, it's also his king, and he recognizes that I'm coming to you asking something.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: And generally, if you're going on your knees, this is very important.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's not like okay, I'm just gonna pray sitting here with John.
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's important, but if I'm going to the father and I'm on my knees, that's like you are laying down something that's very heavy, that's on your heart, right?
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: And you are trying to let the audience know hey, this is where I'm at right now.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it looks like, and I am on my knees praying for you, and this is very important.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_00: What I'm about to say is what I'm praying for you about is very important, and I really want you to get this.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_01: I do this with my children because I want to be on eye level with them.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Like this, I can talk to them anyway, and I expect them to listen to me.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: They they don't, but I expect it.
• 35:45
  SPEAKER_01: But when I really want like my sons to like hear me, I'll kneel down.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, I knelt down when I proposed to my wife.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, there are moments when you kneel down to emphasize something.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in the Roman world, you would kneel down before someone who outranked you in the social order of things.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a way of saying, I am your servant, Lord.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: And Paul's big on this.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: He calls himself, I am the bondservant of the Lord constantly.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: This is how he views himself, also as family, also as the son, also as part of what's happening.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's all of these things together.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Another time you would kneel down is when the servant was listening to the commands that were coming from his boss.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like you would like we might sit down, like crisscross applesauce or something like that.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: But in in the ancient Greek and Roman world, you would kneel down to get comfortable, and you're there to hear what's being said.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's a posture.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and the it's not magic, it's just a way of signaling.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reaching out to you, God.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh we looked at this, so in 16, it says, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with power through his spirit in the inner man.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: So the riches we've learned in the different texts so far in Ephesians, riches could be mercy, could be grace or love.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Those are riches that God has given us.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: These are the riches of his glory, which is mercy.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's like we use the analogy um on a couple of these, John.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when you get biscuits and gravy and you just get like little.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: I heard you talk about this more gravy, but more gravy, more gravy, more gravy, and you get more and more and more and more because you get more of his love, more of his mercy, more of his grace.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just like, I want all, I mean, just give just keep on, man.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so this actually, and again, like you you catch this, like it talks about okay, the riches of your glory.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, if I go to the the boss of whatever my city or town or army unit or business in the Roman Empire, I don't say to the king or to the the my patron, I'm trying to save you money, Lord, because I know money is tight.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's insulting.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: You assume your master, your boss can do anything.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_01: Not all of them can, but you never act like they can't.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_01: What Paul is doing is saying, listen, every good and perfect thing comes down from the Father of Lights.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: You really are what everyone else is pretending to be.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: Mercy unlimited, grace unlimited.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: You are King of Kings, God of gods, Lord of Lords.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: You are exactly what is necessary.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: And all of the powers that exist, whether they be physical or spiritual, remember back there it said every family in heaven and in earth, this is going all the way back to Genesis 1.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, in the beginning, God creates two types of creation.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_01: He creates the spiritual world, the heavens, and he creates the physical world, the earth, and both of them are populated with beings.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever these beings are, down here it's like the children of Adam, that's us.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter if we're Julius Caesar or your John Dillon, all of us give God what he's owed, or else we're in rebellion.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're made to be his imagers.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so when he talks about this, he says every family in heaven and in earth is named from you.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like the Bible talks about God calling the stars by their names.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: He also does the same for us.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Even the book of Revelation, it talks about new names that are written down uh on white stones in glory.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's this idea of if you truly want to get glory, Roman, this thing that your whole culture is built to pursue, you will never find it outside of the king of glory.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that's Jesus.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so what he's talking about here is listen, the Father is up there, he's giving this.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: This Jesus is the King, he's the way that it's come to us, and we're worshiping our King.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_01: And did you catch that?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's through the spirit that's working in my inner being.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I have all three persons of the Trinity and then me thrown in for good measure.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: So this isn't just God doing something, it's not just me doing something.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: This is my will and God's will coming into unity.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: I become part of this huge possibilities that are laid out in front of me because the king of glory is at hand.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: There's a great line in the Psalms where it says, you know, open up the gates, let the king of glory may come in.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Be ye lifted up, ye everlasting doors.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's this calling for uh the the people to recognize uh the king.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: And when you you kind of get that from Paul, he's sitting in prison and he's like, excellent, things are going according to plan.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: You can almost like I like what you just said, you can almost see in these several verses here, uh, three verses here, you see the Father, you see Jesus, and you see the Spirit.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's all there, it's right there, and then the Spirit's place is in the inner man.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: So meaning if you're a believer, you've been look at how it describes that in the spirit.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: So in verse 17, it says, so that Christ may dwell not in the temple, right, not in where Artemis is.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: The the holy place is you.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right, through in your heart, so through faith.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like no ancient peoples thought this.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: This was as foreign to them as possible.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe like the most holy, important person in the world, like Pharaoh might be this, but the Bible is saying, no, all of you have this potentially if you want it.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: If you open yourselves back up to the king, he will come in.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's not about holy places, it's now about holy people.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so now the spirit of God is in me, the presence of Jesus is there, the father is with me.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens then is I become through faith rooted and grounded in love.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: Because you know why?
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because God is love.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: There we go.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is who he is, right?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so when he talks about, we oftentimes when the idea of like the Holy Spirit comes up, people immediately want to jump to the gifts.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I'm all for it.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: But don't forget the fruit of the spirit.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: Normally, when you're going to be encountering people, love, joy, peace, long-suffering, that's the first of the fruit of the spirit.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so the Bible is describing a person who is filled with the spirit of God as growing the things that are the nature of God.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: An apple tree's nature is to make apples.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: A Christian who is filled with the spirit of God naturally produces the fruit of the spirit.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's who they are, because now they have his identity in him and then in me.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so we think of this through the lens of like, okay, an apple tree, yeah, it's got to do that to have, but as soon as I don't know if you guys garden or anything, I grew up in Appalachia.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: We had gardens and orchards were pretty common.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_00: My brother gardens, and then my granddad always gardened.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: It kind of skips me.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: This area is all farming on like on a big, big scale.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone here is growing stuff all the time.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: But as soon as a plant puts out fruit, it starts to die.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: When a plant is like self-serving, you get leaves.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's what it's doing.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's putting out leaves everywhere so that it can get more light, so that it can put out more roots, so that it can be stronger.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: The putting out a fruit is the dying process of the plant because the power, the energy is moving away from self and into the lives of others.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the next generation.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's about the raccoons that live in the area, it's about the birds in the sky, the ants on the ground.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: Everything about it becomes selfless.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so for a Christian, when I'm viewing this, what Paul is saying is like, listen, you notice, like, he doesn't say this is for my glory.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_01: He says this is for your glory.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm doing this.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: And even when he prays, he forgot to pray, God, get me out of jail.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: No, he doesn't do that.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: He's modeling for us this outward reach.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so when I am filled with the spirit, it's not about how to make my life better.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_01: It becomes what can God do through me to reach and to punch holes in the darkness, to make an impact here.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're rooted, like it's talking about you like a tree.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like think soul more.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but you got all the roots, right?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: And you're grounded in love.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: So the more roots you've got, and you're grounded in that love, which is the nature of God, which is also the self-expression of the fruit of the spirit, it naturally leans out.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Self-love is never described in the Bible as a good place to be.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's always like you have you're you're backwards, you're ingrown, you're moving the wrong direction.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: It is designed to be, think of it in terms of like the Dead Sea.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like you have these mountain springs up in the mountains, and those are gorgeous, beautiful, clear water, but it all runs down into this hole and it can't get out.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_01: And nothing lives there, even though every drop of water moves towards it, the end result of it is death.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like here, we have a lot of people who raise cattle, and you'll find these cow uh ponds in people's pastures.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen them.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Do not get in a cow pond.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I imagine it's an outlet for it.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so everything goes in there, and the bacteria levels and probably some good leeches in there.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's gross.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: But you it's not a healthy place to be.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: No one's like, oh, you would not believe the cow ponds over there.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: You have got to vacation.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're not opening cow spas for people to go to.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Even the cows are questioning whether they should get in there.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're just like, I'm getting in here to cool off.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_01: But everything about modern Christianity, at least in America, seems to be about how to be a better me.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: How to do this for me.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: And as long as the intention is hands reaching to grab, you are out of sync with what Paul is modeling for you here.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is about even in the moment when he's in prison, Paul says, Let me pray for you.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Let me bring this to you.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that is glorious.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love 18.
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: It says, May be able to comprehend with all the saints.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: Is that all, that everyone together?
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: All it's not about like, and the Ephesians specifically.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just for that one person.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's all of all the saints.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: And that is as unroman a thing as exists.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right, because then again, you're taking me out of it.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's all like most famously, the Greeks describe like there's Greeks, and then everyone else is barbarians.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter where you're from, what color you are, you are one of them.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: You're just one of them.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Most places in the world, like it doesn't exist in most places.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like the there's the city, like Uruk or something like that.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: And then out there are the nameless hordes of whatever.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: None of them count until they get in your story.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: The Bible is saying, don't forget, you are also part of not just the local church, but the universal church.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: When you gather on Sunday, when you're at the communion table, when you're lifting your hands and you're singing, or when you're on your knees and you're praying, or when you're just rambling as you're walking around and talking to God, you are in step with the entirety of the people of God, not only here on earth, but also in glory.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I I've I've said this many a times on the podcast.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: You're not meant to do this alone.
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's why you need other believers with you in fellowship or even, hey, I need I need somebody to help pray for me.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: I want to pick up the phone and call my friend, and we get on the number of times in the Bible that it talks about one another, and it's annoying.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot one another in isolation.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: No, like I am the king of introverts.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would make a killer hermit, just being honest with you.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: I have to do that.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: My wife and you could everything.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: My wife can just hang out the house, not communicate with no one, and she's fine.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not only fine, maybe I am thriving.
• 48:27
  SPEAKER_00: But me, I'm like, hey, let's go get something to eat.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go, hey, let's go go so let's go to so-and-so's house.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go here.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: There was a life-changing thing for me when Walmart started like delivering things.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like when I can get a click list together, like, man, that that to me is better than sliced bread.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't even bother slicing the bread.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: I can, yeah.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like to me, like that's what it's about.
• 48:50
  SPEAKER_01: If I can just like summon the goods, but I recognize that God didn't make me just to do what comes natural to me.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: I'm to reach beyond my personal appetite and make war on the darkness.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_01: And to push back against my natural inclination.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is where like that comfort level comes into play.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: So long as I never move past what do I want to do, and I never begin to ask, okay, what do I need to do to reach out or to reach up?
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm willing to do that.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love fly fishing passionately.
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about trout.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm all about hiking up in the mountains.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: And you may get one cast at a trout.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_01: It's a lot like bow hunting.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's in this little pocket of water.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I am willing to look like a complete idiot and crawl through God knows what to get this cast at this thing.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_01: But it's because I want it.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_01: The desire is there.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so then I ask myself, you know, why am I willing to do that for a fish that I'm just going to put back in the creek?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm not willing to cross the street to share the gospel with somebody, or I'm not willing to go out of my way to practice forgiveness or hope, or even just lifting up other people and praying for them.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: These are aspects that God calls us out of isolation and into community.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: You are hard pressed to find somebody practicing isolation in the Bible, and it's a good thing.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a good thing.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like when somebody's like, I want to talk to anybody ever again.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're typically like, and then bad things happen.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's kind of like I always go to Elijah, right?
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's the classic.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because Elijah, I think, had like he's your classic, um, I'm I I think he has like suffers depression after he does something really incredible.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: He's always absolutely does it.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: He what he wants, he does something incredible, right?
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: Shows God's glory, and then he goes, Okay, I'm all right, uh, I'm gonna go retreat.
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: I because now they're gonna and now Which makes sense.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then God's like, Why are you sitting underneath this tree?
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or why the angel gives to him?
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like the angel cooks him food, yeah, and is like, arise and eat because the journey is too great for you.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: And then he gets to the cave and he's like, God, man, I just I just want to tell you what's going on.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: And God doesn't say, Shut up, Elijah, I know what's going on.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: He lets him talk.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, Lord, they've profaned your name.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the only one left.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_01: And God says, Actually, Elijah, I've got like tons of people back there.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you would know too if you had bothered to meet them.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Or bothered to talk.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like you don't.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like even like when Elijah is in isolation, like he flees, even there, he's not alone.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like the creatures of the wilderness are actively bringing him food.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they said the ravens were bringing him food.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very Adam in the garden type situation.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: So he's in the wilderness, but he has everything that he needs.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's this reverse uh uh moment of the Garden of Eden.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: Even when Adam is alone in the garden, he says, It's not good for man to be alone.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: And he gives him an Azer, uh, an ally is the word that literally is used.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's not helper like daddy's little helper.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's the someone who understands and will join in the quest.
• 52:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's more like a partnership, right?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: So what what so he mentions saints here?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: The the next part is just unbelievable for me.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like so it says, all the saints, what is the breadth, the length, the height, the depth, and to know the love of Christ, which surpasses knowledge that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like the depth, the height, the length, the width, everything right there, the breath, right?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: What is the breadth and the length?
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: And it says to know the love of Christ.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm gonna talk about my friend right now.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: So, like uh a couple weeks ago, I walk uh I separated from a job that I was on.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't good for me.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I just picked up the phone and he had been calling that day, and I called him back and I said, Hey, so uh I just did that thing.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I just it's over.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Oh man, that's great.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're it's gonna be fine, you're gonna be okay.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, if you know anybody that might have a vehicle that I could use during the temporary until I find a job, it would be awesome.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, Oh, don't worry about it, I gotcha.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_00: You wanna come by today to pick it up?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, I'll just pick it up on Monday.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: Because today's Friday.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, and he's he and when I pick he he picked me up from my house, drove me.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: And um on the way he was like, Hey, you can just keep this as long as you want.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: There's no time frame.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's okay.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, you you want this back at a certain point, right?
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_00: Just take care of it, drive it like it's yours.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful.
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: And it that is the breadth, the length, the height, the depth of love.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_01: Can I point out something in your story though?
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's not like God called you and was like, hey, stop by this place, I've got something for you.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: God doesn't just give the gift, He enables his children to be part of the act.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of the most ennobling things.
• 54:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hospitality, generosity, the the line in scripture where you don't just say, go be warmed and filled.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you look at that, like obviously, and I know this because you and I have talked about it, like you're praising God, but you're also recognizing the love of a friend.
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it's not one or the other.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's crazy.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had to go to Tennessee last week, and I'm taking my grandson, and he wanted to go golfing and wanted to go fishing, and his my brother and my sister were going to spoil them rotten.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I went to breakfast that morning, and my friend goes, How are you getting there?
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Well, I used my points on rental car, same thing.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, Hey, just call them, see if you can get those back to your your account.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just let you have my vehicle and you can drive it.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: Beautiful.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it was again, it was like God reminding me of that love.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: But see, here's the thing.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_00: If I was alone and I don't, I'm not interacting with these people on a daily basis, do you think that I would have uh a vehicle right now or a maybe, but I think it's because I do socialize.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_00: I do, they see that they they are my friends, they're my brothers in in Christ.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say a little bit about you here because uh because I can, but I actually met you because you were being generous.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you remember this or not.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: There was a conference in Indiana that uh was put on.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: It was they were gonna talk about divine counsel stuff.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I waited too long to buy tickets.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: And so I get online, I'm like, anybody out there have extra tickets to this event?
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, No, and nobody got tickets to this event.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: And some random per person in the group was like, Yeah, I got three extra.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: How many do you need?
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I need three.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's Scott, and he's like, Well, I'll meet you there and I'll just give you the tickets.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Oh, what a nice guy.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: But it turned into like it's more than just like a guy who had tickets.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, this is someone who also has the same passion, the same interests.
• 56:33
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's a joining of mission that's there.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I'm just expecting, like, I'm just gonna be wealthy enough to have whatever I want, whenever I want, however I want, that's not how God typically operates.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: No, God resists the proud, he gives grace to the humble.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I can tell you from just knowing you that Scott is not a person whose hand is just out waiting for a new car.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: He's the kind of guy who's gonna be like, you know what, I see your need, I'm gonna do what I can to get it to you.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that also, just like Paul would say, this is for the glory of God.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: And it's I I know everyone who's listening to this, like you need to notice not only the way that God has been kind and good and just provided for you, but also look, okay, what needs are around me?
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have a million dollars that I can just be like, I'm just gonna fix people's problems.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like that would be nice, but I got it.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: What I can do though is a lot simpler.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and those things make a big impact in people's lives.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's my heart for people, and um, that's part of this pursuing the heart, and it's now gonna be pursuing the heart ministries.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: This is the first time I've talked about it on the podcast.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Important announcements, and so that's part of this ministry here is we give we're generous to people, we're we show acts of kindness to people.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I have pursuing the heart has given things to people.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's why I brought it up.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to toot your horn, but Snot's not the guy who's gonna come out and just tell you all the things that he's doing.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you because I know him and I've seen it happening, most of what gets done in terms of blessing other people doesn't get announced in churches on Sunday.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: It just is done quietly.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: And the idea is most people are never gonna know there really was a big need because the family, the people of God, took care of it.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that gives glory to God.
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's what our ministry is about, John.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just when we hear of a need or see a need, I could raise the funds to help if it's coming out of my pocket or coming out of a group of people's pockets to help this individual or help a family.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's what pursuing the heart really is pursuing the heart ministries.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: And uh great announcement in a couple months.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna we will be officially a 501c3.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: So um that is uh that's gonna be really good for the the ministry itself.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So in your life, have you experienced that love, that depth?
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, constantly.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_01: God has been so kind to me and provided for me, um, and still does regularly.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_01: The the biggest one, and I've had moments where God provided vehicles, I've had moments where God provided funds, I've had moments where God just made problems and obstacles disappear.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um but for years and years, for for over a decade, I was a I was a teacher.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I taught high school and I was a youth pastor, and I wanted kids.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: And for 10 years we tried to have kids and had none.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: And we just made peace with the fact, you know, we're just we're just not gonna have kids.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: We'll just be extra nice to everybody else's and you know, just try to be a blessing that way.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: Now I have two boys, and God didn't bless me once, he blessed me double way after I even stopped praying about it.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wasn't going to God and being like, Lord, I'm you're gonna do this because I'd exhausted the throne of heaven years ago with asking this request, but God didn't forget, and he knew the desire of my heart, and he's given me two incredibly evil children who I love.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, they're great kids.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_01: They are, but they're mine.
• 1:00:25
  SPEAKER_01: So, like they they have a steep hill to climb.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: No, they're gonna they're gonna change the world.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: These kids are awesome.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're and they both are different and they're great in their Yeah.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: I've had moments where like I remember in college, this was the one of the first ones I remember happening.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_01: I I wasn't allowed to take my finals.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'd gone through the entire year and I owed like 3,000 bucks, and they weren't gonna let me take my finals until I squared my bill.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like I'm working like crazy trying to raise this money, and I got called into the financial office, and I was like, I was so angry.
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, leave me alone.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: I'm working my rear end off to get you this money.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: Quit telling me about it.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I go into the office and I'm ready to like tell this guy what I think.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: He's like, I just want you to know somebody stopped in today and paid$3,000 specifically for your bill.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know who it was.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: Later on, like they they took like this is not a person who knew me.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_01: He said, you know, God laid on my heart to come here.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: Someone has a bill, this is the number, and here it is.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: And the guy was like, I know exactly who that is because you know, I'm about to call and harass him and tell him he can't take his finals again for like the 50th time.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I didn't even know what to say because I came in there swinging.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm ready, like I'm filled with self-righteousness and like I'm the wronged party.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: And honestly, my my life has had so many moments like that where God just opened doors and I got to go and do things and be places that I had no right or ability to be involved in these things.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_01: And God has just flung open the doors, not for my betterment, but for his glory.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I'm recognized that this isn't something I'm owed.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_01: This is just God being awesome, and and I love it.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I'm excited to see when God's working in people's lives like that.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I also want to be part of it.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: So when I know like there's a need, like, even if it's something as simple as like, all right, somebody passed away, man, we're making a casserole.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm gonna get on, like, we're gonna, we're gonna drop this by it.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't take that much.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you can you can be a blessing in people's lives.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like, one of the things that I love to do, we have a younger church, a lot of younger families.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_01: Man, a box of diapers has never been a wasted gift to a young family ever.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: Those suckers aren't cheap.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think they would let that go by.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think they would use them.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like, no one's gonna be like, oh, my pride won't, because you know, it's cheap enough that like people's pride isn't gonna flare and it's useful enough that like the mom is gonna be like definitely like absolutely, I need these diapers.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, because even if you have two boxes, like you don't have enough diapers.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, you will find there are things and and doors that God is opening, but if your heart is to continually get those doors will close because God is not going to bless the proud, he's going to resist you, right?
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: But he will give grace to the humble.
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're rooted in the love of God and you are loving the things that God loves, right, and that means people and souls and needs and even the people who have wronged you, right, he cries out from the cross for their forgiveness.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_01: God will allow you to be part of some ridiculously awesome stuff.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: So this is where we're going to end today, but look at this last verse, right?
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_00: This I'm gonna this is the way I take it.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: You can correct me if I'm wrong.
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_00: So it says in 19, it says, and to know the love of Christ, which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: So when we experience the love, when we share the love, and we're rooted in the love, that is greater than any knowledge that you can get.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it this is the way I take it, like that love of Christ surpasses anything.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you can it's good to have rabbit hole discussions, but if your foundation isn't because this is what he's been talking about, is about this foundation throughout this whole thing.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: And even going back in the ver in chapter one, he's laying that this foundation in Christ is very important, and Christ has sealed you with the Holy Spirit.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_00: And as you if you're rooted and grounded, meaning you're feeding it, you're you're pursuing it, and you're pursuing him, and that love, because you know the love he had for us because it was displayed on the cross, then you're gonna want to show that love to people.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna want to open the Bible and read.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or you're gonna want to pray, like we've talked about different forms of prayer.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna want to pursue Christ.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it isn't that like, oh, you have to kneel down if you're gonna get your prayers up there.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, but now sometimes there are gonna be moments where you're like, man, I'm gonna kneel down.
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes, John, I might use all the words for God.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_00: I might maybe just Yahweh.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: Making stuff up at this point.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, he's getting all Hebrew, like I just want to make sure he hears me.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, even like what what Paul's writing here, like I don't this is I'm a Bible dork, like I can't help it, but this is poet, this is poetry.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, like this is not just him talking normal.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Like he sat down and was like, I'm gonna write something special.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_01: And on top of it, the Holy Spirit is moving him to do this.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, at times, like your prayer is just gonna be chattery.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_01: Other times you're gonna be like, man, where did that come from?
• 1:06:02
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was that was one of my best ones.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't believe I said that.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like that came off exact.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then there's gonna be moments where you don't have any words.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it's all okay because you can approach the throne boldly.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: So in this verse here, I was just gonna ask you, and this is the way I look at it.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_00: It says, the love of Christ, which surpasses all knowledge.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: All knowledge, right?
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: So in their time and day, their world back then, because again, this was written to them, not it was written uh to uh it was written to them, but it was written for us.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:06:37
  SPEAKER_00: So if we understand the context, I always go back to where Paul's walking through and he sees all the little things that each God had, and then there was one little empty one that says the unknown God.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: So when he gets up top and he's talking to all the people that are full of wisdom and knowledge, right?
• 1:06:58
  SPEAKER_00: And then he had they had their people sitting there that they listen that they listen to these people all day long, and they're trying to get filled with knowledge and wisdom.
• 1:07:08
  SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of like saying, Hey, it it's okay to have that knowledge, but if you really understand God's love, that's more important.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_01: They I don't think that they're opposed to each other.
• 1:07:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like I look, I love fishing, I'm a huge fly fisherman.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_01: I have a passion for hiking up, finding these pools with these fish.
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_01: If I am like the only thing that matters is the passion, then I'm probably not gonna catch many fish.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_01: And if I get to the point where the only thing that matters is the knowledge, then I'm never gonna go.
• 1:07:43
  SPEAKER_01: They go together.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are extensions of one another.
• 1:07:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can think of it in terms of the body, the head, the hands, the heart.
• 1:07:51
  SPEAKER_01: All of it works together.
• 1:07:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, he's saying you don't have the capacity, man, to understand what God is doing.
• 1:07:59
  SPEAKER_01: That doesn't mean your brain should not long for answers, but it means knowledge is not a substitute for passion.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I gotta be honest, passion's not always a substitute for knowledge, they go together.
• 1:08:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like you can be like, imagine in terms of a relationship, right?
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've got I've got two kids and they're very different.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm like, I'm gonna buy my kid a present and I get one kid something, and like I'm excited to give it to them, like I'm passionate about it, but it's not something that they like, it's something the other kid likes.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_01: I have kind of failed as a dad to know my child and what's their they go together.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: If I want to really be passionate, I'm going to also be curious and I'm gonna want to know answers.
• 1:08:44
  SPEAKER_01: Not, I'm not gonna get all the answers, but I'm gonna want to know them.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 1:08:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so sometimes this gets presented through the lens of, well, which one is better?
• 1:08:51
  SPEAKER_01: And the answer is love.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's what's better.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_01: And love can be a love of I want to know what you did.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me the story again.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_01: Or it can be just the love of what you're doing.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's so broad that it's it's bigger than the human mind is capable of packaging.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_01: What happens though is people will come along and be like, all right, here's the secret sauce.
• 1:09:13
  SPEAKER_01: Just this.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I tell you to do this and this and this, here's your ticket to heaven.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's how I kind of grew up.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: Can can I have that?
• 1:09:22
  SPEAKER_01: One of my favorite verses comes out of the Old Testament.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's Micah.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: And he says, You know, what does God expect out of you, man?
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: What does God require of you, oh man?
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_01: Do justly, love mercy, and walk humbly.
• 1:09:35
  SPEAKER_01: So if I'm doing justly, like that's me going around doing things.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm loving mercy, I gotta find out what's going on.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna have there's information that's here, and I'm walking constantly with my God.
• 1:09:44
  SPEAKER_01: There's a relationship that's outward to people, that's upward to God, that even is is directed.
• 1:09:49
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes I need to be merciful even to myself.
• 1:09:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's God never looks at this and is like, just do this one thing.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, it's bigger than this.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like, remember when Saul uh has his big uh epic failure with Agag, and he's he's stolen the animals, he's doing all this stuff, and Samuel comes to me and says, You know what, Saul, all you needed was obedience.
• 1:10:12
  SPEAKER_01: Hath the Lord has great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in listening, and the answer is no.
• 1:10:19
  SPEAKER_01: So listen, love the things that God loves.
• 1:10:22
  SPEAKER_01: What does God love?
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_01: God loves your neighbor, he loves your enemy, he loves your family, he even loves you.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_01: So much so that he died on the cross for your sins.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that we're innocent, it's that we're really, really guilty.
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: We have really dropped the ball, but the love of God is greater than my sin.
• 1:10:40
  SPEAKER_01: He has overcome it and taken it away, and he's called me into one body and one family.
• 1:10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so lay down that pride, lay down that self-obsession and just get going, man.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Enjoy the journey because God is moving.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, John, for coming on.
• 1:10:59
  SPEAKER_00: No, thanks for letting me come on.
• 1:11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, before we wrap up, tell everyone how you discovered this Jesus man.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So my dad was a detective outside of Cleveland, and when I was a little kid, he got saved.
• 1:11:15
  SPEAKER_01: There was a preacher man who came knocking on doors, and he accepted Jesus as his savior.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And over course of years, uh he recognized God was calling him into ministry.
• 1:11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I grew up with my dad going to Bible college, and um I was in church constantly, and I got to a point where I knew I just really loved Jesus and couldn't stand Christians.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I had this massive disconnect in my head between the Lord and the people, and God had to really change me and and bring like I don't remember a time in my life where Jesus was not king.
• 1:11:58
  SPEAKER_01: I remember moments in my life where I acknowledged it, where I prayed the prayers, where I went forward.
• 1:12:04
  SPEAKER_01: I remember my baptism, but I can't recall a time where Jesus wasn't lifted up in my home through my parents.
• 1:12:12
  SPEAKER_01: I remember struggling though with am I gonna really care about these people because I don't like them.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like what they're doing, I don't like how they're acting.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um this is a broken system.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_01: And God began to call me into ministry, and I had real strong opinions about that.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and in the end, the Lord gave me a new heart.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_01: I not only like I prayed, Lord, you know, give me the desires of my heart, but he he also changed the desires of my heart into something much more rich and more fulfilling.
• 1:12:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so like I didn't have this moment where like I was on America's Most Wanted and running from the law and all like I don't have an epic uh journey like that.
• 1:12:53
  SPEAKER_01: My my prayers and my journey was much um much more simple in the in the it grew in a home that loved God.
• 1:13:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it came to a point where I had to make the decisions myself as to whether this was just something that's true of my family or whether this was my God and the path that I was going to walk.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I am happily a Jesus man.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_01: I am I am following, and I want his kingdom to come and his will to be done in my life like it is in heaven.
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 1:13:28
  SPEAKER_00: So we went way long, man.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's good stuff.
• 1:13:32
  SPEAKER_00: We had some great discussion today.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is pursuing the heart.
• 1:13:36
  SPEAKER_00: God pursued me, now I pursue him.
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: I pray that one person, this is this podcast is really, I pray for the one person who doesn't know who Christ is.
• 1:13:49
  SPEAKER_00: That they were to listen to this and want to understand what the riches of who Christ is, what those the gravy that we talked about, grace, love, mercy.
• 1:14:00
  SPEAKER_00: I pray that you this made you want to know more about Jesus and you want him to be Lord of your life.
• 1:14:08
  SPEAKER_00: I also pray for the other person that maybe was thinking about they've walked away from their faith and they listened to this, and maybe it prompts them back into wanting to have a relationship with Christ.
• 1:14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's one person out there that, hey, I just want to listen to this and grow more in by listening to this, that's awesome too.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're that first person, I've been doing this on the last several podcasts, and you don't know who Christ is, there's no magical prayer.
• 1:14:42
  SPEAKER_00: John isn't gonna give you some magical prayer that you can say that oh, boom, shabam, you're it.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's just an acknowledgement uh from you that you need Jesus to be Lord of your life, and you just say, Hey Lord, please forgive me and of my past, future, present sins, please forgive me.
• 1:15:06
  SPEAKER_00: I want to have a relationship with you.
• 1:15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to be Lord of my life.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_00: And if you acknowledge that with him, to him, man, what a ride you're about to start.
• 1:15:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be crazy.
• 1:15:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just telling you, it's a wild ride.
• 1:15:24
  SPEAKER_00: For me to be here in this moment, right now, if you would have came to my old self 20 years ago and said I was gonna be doing this, I would have laughed your head off.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I just pray that if you do that, I just if you make him Lord of your life, that is awesome.
• 1:15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then what you can do is go find a church home or a church body to get in fellowship with and get other brothers or sisters, if you're a female, other sisters that are come around you that could show you who this Christ is, who Jesus is, and the love that surpasses that we talked about tonight.
• 1:16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Man, that is just wow.
• 1:16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can find connection, it is it's amazing.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: If you can get connected with other believers and just in fellowship, just hanging out with other people.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, a lot of times me and my friends, we just hang out, and guess what we talk about?
• 1:16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus.
• 1:16:31
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever we start talking about there's other people in the group, they just started this whole Jesus journey.
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: They're sitting there, they're taking it in, they're asking questions.
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's amazing.
• 1:16:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's how it's supposed to look like.
• 1:16:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's what church is, really, to me.
• 1:16:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so I just pray for that for you guys that are listening.
• 1:16:49
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I hope you come back next week and listen again.
• 1:16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, please like, subscribe, and share the podcast, Pursuing the Heart.
• 1:16:59
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I also will this week, because John's on here, go listen to his Two Trees podcast.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_00: They have taught me so much stuff about some of the old testament that I continue to talk about today with my guys of the stuff that I learned from John, and he has this huge wealth of knowledge.
• 1:17:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the other two that are on the podcast, Rose and um Martin Martin.
• 1:17:30
  SPEAKER_00: We're at Martin's uh house, so appreciate Martin uh this week.
• 1:17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they are really good, it's very rich, it's very depth, and uh, I guarantee you you will pick up something every week new that you haven't heard before.
• 1:17:45
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks for letting me come on the podcast.
• 1:17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to all your guys who uh gather at your Bible study there in the morning, except for Tim, because he didn't come last time I was there.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_01: So uh shout out to everybody else.
• 1:17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but appreciate and I'm honored to be here and praying for uh you guys as life rolls along, brother.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_00: All righty.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you, and I hope you come back again.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_00: All right, before we end, there is this famous little acronym we use, John.
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's you want to help me?
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's uh keep your eyes on Jesus.
• 1:18:16
  SPEAKER_00: K Y E O J.
• 1:18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Keep your eyes on Jesus.
• 1:18:18
  SPEAKER_00: See you next week.