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Inclusive Design: Start Small, Make a Difference · Unlocking Vulnerability

0:05
Speaker 1: Welcome to Unlock in Vulnerability, the podcast that explores what
0:09
Speaker 1: vulnerability really looks like in everyday life. I'm Helen, and
0:13
Speaker 1: in each episode, I'm joined by a different guest who
0:15
Speaker 1: will bring their unique insight and perspectives from across the
0:19
Speaker 1: vulnerability space. We'll discuss the realities behind vulnerability and what
0:23
Speaker 1: it takes to respond when people need additional support. We're
0:27
Speaker 1: glad to have you here, so grab a cup of
0:29
Speaker 1: tea and let's get started. Welcome back to Unlocking Vulnerability
0:35
Speaker 1: with me Helen Pettifer. Today, I'm delighted to be joined
0:39
Speaker 1: by Lauren Peel. Lauren is the managing director at Inclusive Outcomes,
0:43
Speaker 1: which is a consultancy that helps firms to design and
0:47
Speaker 1: deliver better outcomes for all customers. Hello, Lauren, is wonderful
0:51
Speaker 1: to have you on the podcast today.
0:53
Speaker 2: Hi, Helen, thanks so much for having men.
0:55
Speaker 1: Oh, you're really welcome. I'm really looking forward to our discussion.
0:57
Speaker 1: So before we get into that discussion, do you want
0:59
Speaker 1: to give a brief introduction to yourself?
1:03
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely so. As you said, I'm Lauren Peel and
1:06
Speaker 3: managing director of Inclusive Outcomes, were a consultancy that really
1:10
Speaker 3: specializes in vulnerability and customer inclusion and inclusive.
1:15
Speaker 2: Design, and a lot of the work we do is.
1:19
Speaker 3: In the design and delivery of products, services, journey and communications,
1:23
Speaker 3: the kind of the things that customers interact with beyond
1:26
Speaker 3: operational operational teams, and a lot of our work sits
1:32
Speaker 3: kind of at the intersection of customer insight, lived experience
1:36
Speaker 3: and expertise by experience, behavioral understanding, and then the design
1:41
Speaker 3: and delivery beyond that. Once you've got all of that
1:43
Speaker 3: great insight and knowledge, what do you do with it
1:45
Speaker 3: to improve your products and services. A lot of the
1:49
Speaker 3: work is in financial services, but not exclusively. We work
1:53
Speaker 3: with regulators as well and other regulated sectors all around
1:57
Speaker 3: the how do you go from the understanding those needs
1:59
Speaker 3: in to the measurable outcomes so you know that you
2:03
Speaker 3: are improving and making changes for customers in vulnerable circumstances
2:08
Speaker 3: and very briefly before inclusive outcomes. A lot of my
2:11
Speaker 3: career was was in financial services in proposition design and delivery,
2:16
Speaker 3: in house in customer experience, and I've also worked in
2:20
Speaker 3: the nonprofit sector as well around financial vulnerability and financial resilience,
2:25
Speaker 3: which is a real passion area of mine.
2:28
Speaker 1: Brilliant so a lot of knowledge, a lot of experience,
2:30
Speaker 1: a lot of lived experience that you're hearing from the
2:33
Speaker 1: people over the over the years.
2:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And I think you know, low financial
2:38
Speaker 3: resilience and financial vulnerability in particular has been sadly such
2:44
Speaker 3: a growing trend. You know, we came out of COVID
2:47
Speaker 3: into their, I guess the mainstream media cost of living crisis.
2:52
Speaker 3: Many people have had a cost of living crisis all
2:54
Speaker 3: of their lives and generationally, but we have seen this
2:57
Speaker 3: kind of last five or six years hugely challenging. And
3:01
Speaker 3: you know, the numbers of people who are financially vulnerable
3:05
Speaker 3: have low financial resilience and what that means for interacting
3:08
Speaker 3: with financially, with financers, with utilities.
3:11
Speaker 2: With bills.
3:12
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's huge opportunities to improve outcomes for those customers.
3:17
Speaker 1: Brilliant and that's what it's all about, isn't That's what
3:19
Speaker 1: the regulators looking for, that outcome And obviously you've got
3:22
Speaker 1: that in the title inclusive outcomes, it's it's the outcomes. Absolutely. Yeah.
3:26
Speaker 1: So with regards inclusive design, then it seems to be
3:29
Speaker 1: a very hot topic at the moment. You know, a
3:31
Speaker 1: lot of firms are looking at what they can do
3:35
Speaker 1: within this area. Obviously, as you mentioned, the regulators are
3:39
Speaker 1: moving forward. Actually, you know, let's let's make some progress
3:42
Speaker 1: in this. So before we get into that, how would
3:45
Speaker 1: you define inclusive design? What does that look like? What's
3:49
Speaker 1: the definition of inclusive design?
3:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question because I think, like many
3:53
Speaker 3: topics in kind of vulnerability and inclusion, you could ask
3:57
Speaker 3: you twenty practitioners and get twenty different definitions, and I
4:01
Speaker 3: think inclusive design, if you're not in that space, can
4:03
Speaker 3: soundary big. So I guess I like Microsoft's definition inclusive
4:10
Speaker 3: design and has started in the tech sector as a principle,
4:14
Speaker 3: and a lot of the kind of initial thinking came
4:16
Speaker 3: from there. And Microsoft say that inclusive design is a
4:20
Speaker 3: methodology that enables and draws on the full range of
4:23
Speaker 3: human diversity. Now I really like that because it talks
4:27
Speaker 3: about diversity rather than vulnerability.
4:29
Speaker 2: I think it frames it in the positive.
4:32
Speaker 3: It talks about the methodology, which means it kind of
4:35
Speaker 3: centers people like us and you know, and our clients
4:39
Speaker 3: who have the privilege to design and deliver products and services.
4:42
Speaker 3: It centers us as we can change our methods, we
4:45
Speaker 3: can do something about it. We can change how we
4:47
Speaker 3: work to deliver more inclusive products and services. And even
4:53
Speaker 3: as I was thinking about this call again and I
4:55
Speaker 3: was looking at that definition draws on the full range
4:57
Speaker 3: of human diversity, I always thinking there's something in there.
5:01
Speaker 2: It's about seeing that as an opportunity. It's a you know,
5:04
Speaker 2: we can draw.
5:05
Speaker 3: On diversity to deliver something great, to deliver something inclusive,
5:08
Speaker 3: to maybe differentiate in a market that doesn't have much
5:11
Speaker 3: space for differentiation. So I think it's how do we
5:15
Speaker 3: take that positive framing around diversity and understanding and apply
5:20
Speaker 3: that to products, services, journeys, you know, being conscious that
5:26
Speaker 3: we all have our own biases and assumptions and using
5:31
Speaker 3: inclusive design methods to kind of tackle some of those.
5:34
Speaker 3: You know, I think when you've worked in a sector
5:37
Speaker 3: for it doesn't even have to be a long time.
5:39
Speaker 3: If you've worked in pensions or insurance for every five years,
5:42
Speaker 3: you know huge amounts and it's really hard then to
5:45
Speaker 3: put yourself in the shoes of someone who doesn't know
5:47
Speaker 3: anything about that sector to design for it. So I
5:50
Speaker 3: think it's how do we work with people, how do
5:54
Speaker 3: we co design, how do we understand different needs better
5:59
Speaker 3: inclusive accessibility, but also beyond it and low capability, digital capability,
6:05
Speaker 3: and neurodiversity.
6:06
Speaker 2: Health conditions.
6:07
Speaker 3: How do we take that kind of insight and apply
6:10
Speaker 3: that to the design and delivery work we do, to say,
6:14
Speaker 3: are our decisions creating more inclusion or are they creating exclusion?
6:19
Speaker 2: And once we know that, what do we do about it? Powerful?
6:23
Speaker 1: Powerful questions, aren't they? And I've been having a conversation
6:26
Speaker 1: actually with a couple of clients recently where I think
6:30
Speaker 1: it's it's hard for fans to understand that inclusive design
6:36
Speaker 1: isn't just all about accessibility. So you mentioned they're around diversity,
6:40
Speaker 1: is actually just thinking, actually, some people might be overwhelmed,
6:43
Speaker 1: they might be distressed, they might be anxious, you know,
6:47
Speaker 1: and that then causes impacts to customer journeys and the
6:51
Speaker 1: decisions that they make and things like that. So it
6:53
Speaker 1: isn't just around those reasonable adjustments with regards to the accessibility.
6:58
Speaker 1: It's so much more than that, isn't it.
7:00
Speaker 2: Yeah?
7:00
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I think you know, accessibility is a great place
7:03
Speaker 3: to start if you're not doing anything today.
7:06
Speaker 2: Or you're in those early stages, start there.
7:07
Speaker 3: But you're so right, and I think we with our
7:11
Speaker 3: lived experienced community, we also talk a lot about overlapping
7:14
Speaker 3: needs and complex circumstances. And there's a conversation with a
7:17
Speaker 3: woman who is who's deaf and has ADHD, and we
7:22
Speaker 3: were talking about the intersection of those things, but the ADHD,
7:25
Speaker 3: she said, sometimes you know, if a firm has worked
7:28
Speaker 3: on the accessibility side very well, actually is the challenges
7:32
Speaker 3: of being ADHD that can then have more of an
7:36
Speaker 3: impact and a lack of design for that. So things
7:38
Speaker 3: like when reminder emails come, what action that drives you to?
7:43
Speaker 2: What that looks like?
7:44
Speaker 3: So I think this is the accessibility inclusive design, but
7:47
Speaker 3: there is the neurodiversity. What does that mean if you
7:50
Speaker 3: are you just really struggle with numbers as many many
7:54
Speaker 3: people do. Are we designing in that way? There's so
7:58
Speaker 3: many different lenses that we can look through, and actually
8:02
Speaker 3: the more of those we can look through and design for,
8:05
Speaker 3: the better it gets for everyone.
8:06
Speaker 2: And I think that's a big thing.
8:07
Speaker 3: With inclusive design is perhaps an assumption that you know,
8:12
Speaker 3: if you design for X characteristic it only gets better
8:15
Speaker 3: for them. But actually what we know is generally if
8:18
Speaker 3: you design it for the people who maybe most struggle
8:21
Speaker 3: to interact with the service today, generally gets better for everyone.
8:25
Speaker 2: And easier and better for people's operational teams as well,
8:28
Speaker 2: because you're not dragging in as many complaints or as
8:31
Speaker 2: many phone calls that don't need to happen. So yeah,
8:33
Speaker 2: I think it's how do you design for lots of
8:36
Speaker 2: different needs so it benefits everyone and gets simpler for
8:39
Speaker 2: everyone as well.
8:40
Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, it can often be overwhelming for firms. So,
8:44
Speaker 1: like you were saying, actually, just actually, if you're at
8:46
Speaker 1: the starter, your journey start with accessibility because that's sort
8:49
Speaker 1: of quite clear cut in sort of what is required
8:52
Speaker 1: through reasonable adjustments of the Equality Act. So I know
8:55
Speaker 1: that within inclusive outcomes, you've got those five framework levels
9:00
Speaker 1: with regards to sort of where firms are at with
9:03
Speaker 1: their inclusive design journeys. So are you happy to share
9:07
Speaker 1: more about those and sort of even just give some
9:09
Speaker 1: of the listeners that just a recap of where they
9:12
Speaker 1: may be with regards to that maturity level in their journeys.
9:16
Speaker 2: Absolutely. So.
9:17
Speaker 3: In twenty twenty five, we were starting to talk with
9:20
Speaker 3: a lot of different firms about benchmarkting.
9:22
Speaker 2: That's where this conversation came from.
9:24
Speaker 3: A lot of firms wanted to know where where they
9:27
Speaker 3: are in relation to what other firms are doing, and
9:31
Speaker 3: there's lots of great and there's loads of great resources
9:33
Speaker 3: out there, including things like this podcast from your webinars
9:36
Speaker 3: where people share best practice and share those learnings. But
9:39
Speaker 3: people wanted to understand where they are so they can
9:42
Speaker 3: work out what's next, which is a super helpful.
9:45
Speaker 2: You have to know where you are today. So we
9:47
Speaker 2: came up with our five.
9:48
Speaker 3: Stages of maturity. A very high level they are. Awareness
9:53
Speaker 3: is the first one. I actually don't see many firms
9:56
Speaker 3: that are only at awareness anymore. So that the districtor
9:59
Speaker 3: is Yeah, I think very maybe very small firms, but
10:03
Speaker 3: we see that would be we know we should be
10:05
Speaker 3: doing something, but we're not doing it yet. Maybe it's
10:10
Speaker 3: just that you and I wouldn't see those because they're
10:12
Speaker 3: not coming through.
10:14
Speaker 2: Exactly, so perhaps they don't know what they don't.
10:18
Speaker 3: Yeah, and the awareness stage, if you're there, is about
10:22
Speaker 3: the like, Okay, let's just take a look at where
10:25
Speaker 3: you're at, what you're doing. It may not be that
10:28
Speaker 3: you're at the thinking about inclusive design stage. There may
10:31
Speaker 3: be other things first, but yeah, we don't see many
10:33
Speaker 3: of the awareness stage. And the next stage is foundations,
10:38
Speaker 3: so you might have some of the core processes in place,
10:40
Speaker 3: you've probably done some training with certainly with frontline teams,
10:44
Speaker 3: you've probably got systems around disclosure in place, but they
10:48
Speaker 3: are those very good tools, frameworks, methods are quite inconsistent
10:53
Speaker 3: across the organization that moves into embedding, which is yes,
10:59
Speaker 3: you're kind of taking that good work. It's being used
11:01
Speaker 3: more consistently, different teams are using it. It's not only
11:04
Speaker 3: within one vulnerability team and then leading and pioneering kind
11:09
Speaker 3: of at the kind of the levels four and five
11:12
Speaker 3: where really you know, the focus on vulnerability and inclusion
11:16
Speaker 3: is early in every process. It's not we've done our
11:19
Speaker 3: usual process and then we've thought about vulnerability, it's how
11:22
Speaker 3: does that come in earlier?
11:25
Speaker 2: And we see generally.
11:28
Speaker 3: Most firms are somewhere between foundations and embedding. I think
11:32
Speaker 3: some of the banks are further along where they've been
11:34
Speaker 3: doing it for a long time, but most firms have
11:38
Speaker 3: good tools and systems and processes in place or ones
11:42
Speaker 3: that they're developing. And the challenges how do we get
11:45
Speaker 3: this out of our vulnerability team more consistently into customer experience,
11:50
Speaker 3: products and service design, kind of monitoring measurement. How do
11:54
Speaker 3: we take that good work and get it into different
11:56
Speaker 3: areas of the business. And I'd love to come through
12:00
Speaker 3: podcast and say here's the single way.
12:01
Speaker 2: You do that. I think there's a range of ways
12:03
Speaker 2: to do that depended on the business.
12:06
Speaker 3: And you know, we would always talk about how much
12:08
Speaker 3: can we frame this in the positive. It's not we
12:10
Speaker 3: shouldn't be thinking, oh, we have to do this because
12:12
Speaker 3: we have to do this with vulnerable customers. It's more
12:15
Speaker 3: by doing this early, what's the benefits? Where does this
12:18
Speaker 3: save time and money? Where does this save operational effort?
12:22
Speaker 3: How does it allow us to differentiate? What's what's the
12:24
Speaker 3: positives of that?
12:25
Speaker 1: Sadly you have to put a financial sort of spin
12:29
Speaker 1: on it, don't you for a lot of firms, because
12:31
Speaker 1: they need to see the ro OI, don't they.
12:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that's I think that's okay. I
12:37
Speaker 3: think it's you know, if that's what it takes to
12:39
Speaker 3: get things prioritized, then that's fine. I guess there are
12:44
Speaker 3: lots of Yeah. I think the like I said earlier
12:46
Speaker 3: about inclusive design, there's things you can do where if
12:48
Speaker 3: you designed for one group, it should make things better
12:51
Speaker 3: for everyone. And I think that's the building out that
12:55
Speaker 3: ROI case and the outcomes measures beyond that, you know,
12:58
Speaker 3: we've not just improved outcomes for customers with these characteristics
13:01
Speaker 3: of vulnerability, things have actually got better for everyone. Know
13:05
Speaker 3: how we measure that and tell that story, it can
13:07
Speaker 3: be really really powerful.
13:09
Speaker 1: Absolutely, yes, yeah, yeah, So we said you've got to
13:13
Speaker 1: embed in. Sorry I interrupted you.
13:15
Speaker 2: So you've got yeah, the embedding.
13:19
Speaker 3: So the embedding stage, I think is about how do
13:22
Speaker 3: we set those teams up to succeed, you know, in
13:26
Speaker 3: different areas when they're maybe not not thinking about vulnerability.
13:30
Speaker 3: And I think some of the ways we've seen that
13:32
Speaker 3: are where people have made it really actionable. So if
13:35
Speaker 3: you're in a you know, you're either in foundations or
13:38
Speaker 3: you're moving into embedding, you maybe feel like you're in
13:40
Speaker 3: the earlier stages. I always say to people, it doesn't
13:44
Speaker 3: have to be a massive transformation program. It's okay to
13:46
Speaker 3: start smaller. So we've worked with a few firms who
13:50
Speaker 3: have kind of looked at their customer journeys and done
13:54
Speaker 3: a rag rating, a red and the green rating on
13:58
Speaker 3: which of these journeys are most likely to have the
14:01
Speaker 3: most customers in vulnerable circumstances. What's and what's the impact
14:05
Speaker 3: of getting it wrong, and usually you know, they will
14:07
Speaker 3: come up within that red category. You might have bereavement journeys,
14:11
Speaker 3: power of attorney, things to do with divorce and separation.
14:15
Speaker 3: We do a lot with life and pensions companies that
14:17
Speaker 3: life insurance journey like claims journeys will come up in there.
14:21
Speaker 3: And I think it's a great way to just go, Yes,
14:24
Speaker 3: we've got all these journeys, but let's just do these
14:26
Speaker 3: first two. This is a sensible way to kind of
14:29
Speaker 3: structure that and do that. You know, we talk about
14:32
Speaker 3: inclusive design processes, but I also think you can say
14:35
Speaker 3: inclusive review. You know, it's not about always building something
14:39
Speaker 3: from the start. That we've got this journey and we've
14:41
Speaker 3: maybe got ni or data around it. We'll need to
14:44
Speaker 3: speak to some people around it as well and bring
14:46
Speaker 3: in lived experience and do some code design sessions. But
14:49
Speaker 3: you can do an inclusive review which helps you better
14:52
Speaker 3: understand the pain points, what you need to change, what
14:55
Speaker 3: you can do differently, and then use those findings to
14:59
Speaker 3: apply it to the other jour these as well. So
15:00
Speaker 3: you might have started on two or three journeys, but
15:04
Speaker 3: then you can use those principles to share with everyone,
15:06
Speaker 3: you know, next time. You're building something and reviewing something,
15:08
Speaker 3: revising something. This is what we found and it's a
15:12
Speaker 3: great way to kind of start small and get some
15:14
Speaker 3: of those learnings early.
15:16
Speaker 1: Brilliant, brilliant, and then and then the next two So
15:20
Speaker 1: that was embedding, wasn't it. So after embedding them, what
15:23
Speaker 1: are the next two levels? Well?
15:25
Speaker 3: Leading, So leading is where firms are consistently building in
15:34
Speaker 3: vulnerability and inclusion into their processes. So I would say
15:37
Speaker 3: in this stage we might evidence that we might see
15:40
Speaker 3: is things like in the propositions governance process or products
15:46
Speaker 3: and service design processes that there is evidence around here
15:49
Speaker 3: is what we have considered an acted on around customer vulnerability.
15:53
Speaker 3: Now that might be that you have tested that product
15:57
Speaker 3: with the lived Experience panel or a community or code design.
16:00
Speaker 3: It kind of could be something big like this. It
16:02
Speaker 3: could be a we've used our lived experience or inclusive
16:06
Speaker 3: design toolkit and we've thought about this, or we've used
16:08
Speaker 3: this NI and applied it. But I think knowing that
16:11
Speaker 3: those processes are in place, that they are not just
16:16
Speaker 3: owned by a vulnerability team, but you know, a proposition
16:18
Speaker 3: or product team has build it in risk and governance,
16:21
Speaker 3: have reviewed it and challenged it because I think there's
16:24
Speaker 3: where that can sometimes fall down is if it becomes checkboxing,
16:28
Speaker 3: so it's the okay, actually is it completed?
16:31
Speaker 2: If not, go back and do it again. You need
16:33
Speaker 2: to make sure you've thought about these things.
16:35
Speaker 3: We see that at the leading stage and actually we
16:40
Speaker 3: start to see and this is probably between leading and pioneering,
16:44
Speaker 3: some examples where the kind of products or services are
16:48
Speaker 3: actually new products and services are actually coming out of
16:51
Speaker 3: that process. So I hope they weren't mandly saying, but
16:55
Speaker 3: we've talked. We've talked about it on a webinar with
16:58
Speaker 3: us before. Santander have a care as card cares debit card,
17:03
Speaker 3: which is about you know, they'd identified that people with
17:07
Speaker 3: dementia or or the people who had a care particularly
17:10
Speaker 3: during COVID were giving their bank card and their pinned
17:13
Speaker 3: people to go to the shop for them, which as
17:16
Speaker 3: you would, and I'm sure we can all think of
17:17
Speaker 3: times where you know, family members and friends where that
17:19
Speaker 3: would have happened, and they wanted to set up a new,
17:24
Speaker 3: a different approach that was safer, where it's a different
17:26
Speaker 3: card and it kind of provides that access that someone
17:29
Speaker 3: can go to.
17:29
Speaker 2: The shop and get a paper or get some milk,
17:31
Speaker 2: get the shopping in, but without land full access. So
17:34
Speaker 2: I think being.
17:35
Speaker 3: Able to identify those things and act on them and
17:37
Speaker 3: deliver them as new products and services that solve a
17:40
Speaker 3: problem is in that leading to pioneering space kind of
17:45
Speaker 3: it's not just we're making our own things better, but
17:47
Speaker 3: we're thinking about the opportunities and the problems we can
17:50
Speaker 3: solve as well.
17:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I remember you mentioning about the Santander card
17:55
Speaker 1: on the webinar, and it just resonated with me because
17:59
Speaker 1: as you know, my my eldest son has got learning disabilities,
18:02
Speaker 1: and there's you know, there's always been a challenge with
18:04
Speaker 1: it all right, God's you know, sort of keeping his
18:06
Speaker 1: money safe, keeping his cards safe, and me having access
18:09
Speaker 1: to that knowledge so that that would have worked perfectly
18:13
Speaker 1: with us. So it's it's it's it's thinking about those
18:17
Speaker 1: cohorts of people that potentially fall under the radar where
18:21
Speaker 1: there isn't any necessarily any tangible thoughts for actually, how
18:25
Speaker 1: can we improve this, how can we make it safe?
18:27
Speaker 1: For how can we make lives you know?
18:29
Speaker 2: Better?
18:30
Speaker 3: Because of that, absolutely, and I think there's a the
18:35
Speaker 3: reason I think we talk about expertise by experience and
18:39
Speaker 3: co design and working with different groups of people is because,
18:42
Speaker 3: to your point, Helen, the data, if people aren't using
18:46
Speaker 3: products and services because they can't access them, they can't
18:48
Speaker 3: get an account or then you know, they're not able
18:51
Speaker 3: to use those accounts independently.
18:52
Speaker 2: They're not showing up in the data and the m I.
18:55
Speaker 2: So if we're.
18:55
Speaker 3: Always using only the numbers, the numbers and the data
18:59
Speaker 3: is really powerful for giving you so many kinds of
19:02
Speaker 3: insights in different ways, but lots of people will be missed.
19:08
Speaker 3: You know, we were talking and this is an early
19:12
Speaker 3: formed thoughts rather than exact science, but we were talking
19:15
Speaker 3: as a team this week around our people with lower
19:20
Speaker 3: financial confidence more or less likely to complain than people
19:24
Speaker 3: who are more confident because you kind of you know,
19:27
Speaker 3: you know what a fair service is, you maybe feel
19:30
Speaker 3: or you're more empowered to do something about it. So
19:33
Speaker 3: if you are either lower capability, lower confidence, or just
19:37
Speaker 3: your life really complex and really busy, are you less
19:40
Speaker 3: likely to complain? And does that mean you know, if
19:44
Speaker 3: you only look at complaints data, it could tell a
19:46
Speaker 3: story that people are having a better service, but actually
19:49
Speaker 3: it's just not having the time, energy, capability access to
19:53
Speaker 3: do that, so there's something about who's not in data
19:56
Speaker 3: as well, and kind of on what that means and
19:58
Speaker 3: whom you might want to work with to us and
20:00
Speaker 3: different questions.
20:00
Speaker 1: Of yeah, absolutely, and actually leading on from that, then
20:03
Speaker 1: you've mentioned around sort of several times actually around that
20:06
Speaker 1: lived experience is actually hearing directly from the people who
20:10
Speaker 1: are going to be using those products, shoes and those
20:12
Speaker 1: services can be incredibly valuable with just actually understanding their perspective,
20:17
Speaker 1: their challenges, their barriers that they might face. So how
20:20
Speaker 1: important is it to get the voice of the lived
20:23
Speaker 1: expert in the room when you are looking at sort
20:27
Speaker 1: of designing or reviewing.
20:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I think it's obviously I'm going to say,
20:33
Speaker 3: I think it's essential to bring in exercise by experience
20:36
Speaker 3: because I've seen it firsthand the impact it can make,
20:40
Speaker 3: and it has to be done effectively and appropriately. I
20:45
Speaker 3: think that's the caveat that goes with it. So we
20:48
Speaker 3: always start with when we're speaking about with clients who
20:52
Speaker 3: want to work with our lived experienced community and what
20:54
Speaker 3: that means. It's always what's the purpose? What is it
20:57
Speaker 3: that you're trying to achieve? And then let's work through and.
21:00
Speaker 2: What's the right way to go about that.
21:01
Speaker 3: I think that's that's the benefit of having like colleagues
21:04
Speaker 3: who've worked in customer insights for a long time, as
21:07
Speaker 3: we can think about that, what's the purpose, what's the method?
21:12
Speaker 3: And I think, you know, we have to remember when
21:15
Speaker 3: we're talking about lived experience panels or inclusive design panels,
21:20
Speaker 3: that the success measure isn't having the panel and it existing.
21:26
Speaker 3: The success measure is what happens afterwards with it. You know,
21:29
Speaker 3: we can't be patting ourselves on the back because we've
21:31
Speaker 3: built it if we're not saying, here's what we've changed,
21:34
Speaker 3: here's what we've learned, here's what we've changed, here's what
21:36
Speaker 3: we've measured, and what does that mean we do differently?
21:42
Speaker 3: And I say that because we see we're trying to
21:46
Speaker 3: talk more about bringing expertise by experience in much earlier
21:53
Speaker 3: into into processes.
21:55
Speaker 2: So if you can work with people about the problem
21:59
Speaker 2: we're trying to.
22:00
Speaker 3: Solve and really being clear what is the cause of
22:02
Speaker 3: that problem in our journey, service or product, and what
22:07
Speaker 3: you know, working with people, what's the problem, what are
22:10
Speaker 3: their work arounds that they're doing today and how effective
22:13
Speaker 3: is that? What examples do they have from other places
22:17
Speaker 3: that have maybe tackled that problem.
22:18
Speaker 2: In a different way.
22:19
Speaker 3: If you can start in that, here's the problem to solve,
22:22
Speaker 3: and how do we start to design that solution with
22:25
Speaker 3: you rather than we've built this, what do you think that?
22:30
Speaker 3: I think that second one feels easier and quicker, But
22:32
Speaker 3: actually I would say, you know, doing it up from
22:36
Speaker 3: earlier could say huge amounts of time and going, oh,
22:39
Speaker 3: we've been trying to solve this problem, but actually we could.
22:41
Speaker 2: Have just done this.
22:42
Speaker 3: Here's the thing that is the key kind of a
22:45
Speaker 3: point of challenge or difficulty.
22:47
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think it's about that genuine engagement, being
22:52
Speaker 2: really clear on the purpose internally and with the people
22:55
Speaker 2: you're working with, and then you know, working through what's
22:59
Speaker 2: the problem and then what does that mean for the
23:01
Speaker 2: solution to get the best outcomes for people.
23:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I love that you raised around actually sort
23:08
Speaker 1: of the workarounds, because again, just when you were sharing that,
23:10
Speaker 1: I was thinking about, you know, my life with Daniel,
23:13
Speaker 1: my son, and you know, actually we have got so
23:15
Speaker 1: many workarounds that you know, we've recognized that something doesn't
23:19
Speaker 1: work in you know, within an organization or a product
23:22
Speaker 1: or service that he's using So between the two of us,
23:27
Speaker 1: myself and my son, we've put some workarounds together, you know,
23:31
Speaker 1: and and at times some of those are clunky, some
23:35
Speaker 1: of those are more timely, some of them actually do
23:38
Speaker 1: cost us a little bit of extra money. So it's
23:42
Speaker 1: it's those things. But we wouldn't necessarily go back to
23:44
Speaker 1: the business and say, actually, do you know what we've
23:47
Speaker 1: put this in place, because because we are still getting
23:50
Speaker 1: the outcome. But it's it's all we're going. We're going
23:52
Speaker 1: the long way around together and we're potentially not creating
23:58
Speaker 1: a safe environment for those or or it's costing us
24:00
Speaker 1: time or money. So I think the workarounds is key,
24:03
Speaker 1: isn't it.
24:04
Speaker 3: And I think yeah, And I'm reflecting that back because
24:09
Speaker 3: that I think there's two There's the workarounds can be
24:12
Speaker 3: responded to in or can have two impacts. So, you know, Helen,
24:16
Speaker 3: in your example, I think if many of those providers
24:19
Speaker 3: knew the workarounds, the level of time and effort and
24:22
Speaker 3: the potential risk that you are having to do to
24:26
Speaker 3: get the service.
24:27
Speaker 2: In the way that it's intended. You know.
24:29
Speaker 3: I think we've both seen sessions where people become aware
24:32
Speaker 3: of that and it's a massive shock and to the providers,
24:35
Speaker 3: you know, they've not been aware of because it's designed
24:38
Speaker 3: for this imaginary kind of typical customer. I'm doing air
24:42
Speaker 3: quotes if you're listening just on the podcast, the typical
24:45
Speaker 3: customer that doesn't really exist, you know, And I think
24:49
Speaker 3: then it's it's hard if you've never been in that situation.
24:52
Speaker 3: It's hard to imagine what those workarounds would look like
24:54
Speaker 3: and how time and effort and impact that takes. So
24:58
Speaker 3: that's one reason that kind of those you know, hearing
25:01
Speaker 3: different voices working with people is hugely valuable. I've also
25:05
Speaker 3: seen the other side where people say, you know, or
25:07
Speaker 3: your website does this, or your journey has to do this.
25:10
Speaker 3: That doesn't work for me. So my solution is I
25:12
Speaker 3: do X, Y and Z, and the provider has gone,
25:15
Speaker 3: that's brilliant. We should just do that all the time.
25:18
Speaker 3: Like why we've made the process too complicated? And actually
25:20
Speaker 3: your workaround is a better thing. So understanding and adjustments
25:24
Speaker 3: in two ways is is really powerful and increasing design processes.
25:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, so potentially if the readers take the listeners take
25:31
Speaker 1: anything away from today is actually, yeah, you know, what
25:34
Speaker 1: workarounds might your customers be doing that you don't necessarily
25:37
Speaker 1: know about.
25:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's why it's so so important to do
25:40
Speaker 3: it early, because if you've not understood there, here's the problem,
25:43
Speaker 3: and here's the workarounds people are currently doing, you've just
25:46
Speaker 3: maybe built a solution without understanding.
25:48
Speaker 2: That that can make a massive difference.
25:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally completely. So we've shared, we've shared a lots.
25:55
Speaker 1: Actually there's a lot that you've shared today for the
25:58
Speaker 1: listeners to take away. So what other top tips would
26:01
Speaker 1: you recommend for those perhaps maybe not at the awareness stage,
26:05
Speaker 1: but maybe at the foundation stage, But what can they
26:08
Speaker 1: take away from today to maybe help them with their strategies.
26:12
Speaker 3: I would say, know that it's okay to start small,
26:18
Speaker 3: and if it feels you know, if you've maybe been
26:20
Speaker 3: thinking inclusive design is or it's too big. Something that
26:22
Speaker 3: people say to me a lot is I just don't
26:24
Speaker 3: think we're in a place where we're ready for inclusive
26:26
Speaker 3: design yet we want to get some other things sorted first.
26:30
Speaker 3: And I would say almost the opposite that almost the
26:33
Speaker 3: further away you are from thinking you're ready is the
26:35
Speaker 3: right time, because that.
26:36
Speaker 2: Could inform all of that great work you're doing.
26:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, So there's no right time to start. There's probably
26:43
Speaker 3: no right place to start. You can just start somewhere.
26:47
Speaker 3: Now if you're that might be here is the next
26:50
Speaker 3: product that we're designing. This is the next thing that's
26:53
Speaker 3: for a review. It's okay to kind of dip a
26:56
Speaker 3: toe in the water make a start, but you can.
27:00
Speaker 3: I guess my tip would be just start somewhere, but
27:03
Speaker 3: then make sure you're doing that well.
27:05
Speaker 2: So how are.
27:07
Speaker 3: You when are you bringing in the voices of people
27:10
Speaker 3: with lived experience, How are you doing that? And then
27:14
Speaker 3: how are you how often do you need to do that?
27:16
Speaker 3: Through that process and what will you measure at the end.
27:19
Speaker 3: You know, we work wet as I said, with financial services,
27:23
Speaker 3: it is all about the can we evidence that we
27:25
Speaker 3: have done something and that.
27:26
Speaker 2: We and that it has worked as well?
27:30
Speaker 3: So yeah, it would be think about your start small,
27:35
Speaker 3: engage with people with expertise by experience in the right
27:37
Speaker 3: way what we do with our clients, then work through
27:41
Speaker 3: the how is it applied to the design and then
27:44
Speaker 3: the delivery and then the measurements.
27:47
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, and of course obviously write it all down
27:49
Speaker 1: and evidence it because obviously that's what the regulators looking
27:52
Speaker 1: for as well.
27:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, you've got to do it. You're right, you got
27:57
Speaker 2: to do it for the regulator. And I have said
28:00
Speaker 2: people as well.
28:00
Speaker 3: You know, if you've got a lived experience panel or
28:03
Speaker 3: a community, you know, we speak to a few firms
28:06
Speaker 3: about setting something up that's more regular and how they
28:08
Speaker 3: can keep you know, using that. It's you know, you
28:12
Speaker 3: can write it down for the regulator, but you can
28:14
Speaker 3: also write it down to make that really shareable. You know,
28:16
Speaker 3: you might have learned something in a bereavement journey that
28:20
Speaker 3: is really helpful for a pensions transfer journey or for
28:24
Speaker 3: a you know, a renewal of tariff journey. It's just
28:28
Speaker 3: almost you might go, we just learned this thing from
28:30
Speaker 3: someone who had this characteristic that we just apply everywhere.
28:34
Speaker 3: So it's always about building that knowledge base keeping sharing it.
28:39
Speaker 3: And I think to your point around sharing those adjustments,
28:44
Speaker 3: being able to kind of show tell the stories of
28:47
Speaker 3: and work with people who can say this is the
28:50
Speaker 3: consequence of the process as it works today, and how
28:54
Speaker 3: do we just work together to make that better?
28:56
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, absolutely, and even just sort of closing them background.
29:00
Speaker 1: So I know that you mentioned earlier with the lived
29:02
Speaker 1: experts of actually don't just get them in the room,
29:05
Speaker 1: get their information and then that's that's it. Job done. Actually,
29:08
Speaker 1: just just feedback to them. You know, you said this,
29:11
Speaker 1: and this is what we've done. This is what you've
29:13
Speaker 1: helped us to change, because that's where we'll continue to
29:18
Speaker 1: keep those relationships with those experts alive, because they'll be
29:22
Speaker 1: more comfortable then to say, actually, I told you this,
29:25
Speaker 1: this was my challenge, and look what you've done. So
29:28
Speaker 1: actually now I feel more comfortable to tell you something else.
29:31
Speaker 1: So it is sort of really keeping that that loop,
29:35
Speaker 1: sort of going it and feeding it back to those
29:37
Speaker 1: people who were impacted the most.
29:39
Speaker 2: I totally agree.
29:41
Speaker 3: I think we was talking with the film weeks ago
29:44
Speaker 3: about we took to the definition of inclusive design.
29:47
Speaker 2: We're doing, what's the definition of lived experience? And I
29:51
Speaker 2: think we say it's just a phrase we use now,
29:55
Speaker 2: and I try to be.
29:58
Speaker 3: Conscious of saying people have lived experience in the same
30:02
Speaker 3: way that before. It's you know, we don't say vulnerable customers.
30:05
Speaker 3: We say customers in vulnerable circumstances. People with lived experiences
30:09
Speaker 3: more of a mouthful, but it centers the people rather
30:13
Speaker 3: than their you know, they are people who are sharing
30:16
Speaker 3: their experiences, sharing their needs, And we came up with
30:20
Speaker 3: this definition that was really about treating and valuing that
30:25
Speaker 3: experience as expertise, which I really like. So to your
30:29
Speaker 3: point around, if you'd hired a consultant to come in
30:32
Speaker 3: and tell you what to do, you would probably then
30:34
Speaker 3: tell them what you've done and keep their relationship with them.
30:37
Speaker 3: And how do we know with our experts by experience?
30:41
Speaker 3: How do we say, you know, either these are the
30:44
Speaker 3: things we've changed, thank you very much, or I think
30:47
Speaker 3: the harder conversation, and often this is you know is
30:51
Speaker 3: sadly what happens in bigger firms is to be able
30:54
Speaker 3: to say, you.
30:55
Speaker 2: Know, we've not been able to change that yet, and
30:57
Speaker 2: I think you've got to be bold to do that.
30:59
Speaker 3: But it okay to go you know, we can go
31:01
Speaker 3: back and share good news, but we can also say
31:03
Speaker 3: we're on with it. These are some of the challenges,
31:06
Speaker 3: but still thank you your time is still really valuable
31:10
Speaker 3: and hugely informative for us, and being comfortable to do
31:14
Speaker 3: both sides of that closing the loop with the experts.
31:18
Speaker 1: Yes, and you use the words yet you know we
31:21
Speaker 1: haven't been able to do anything with that yet. Maybe
31:24
Speaker 1: just include that yet you know it might not be possible. Now,
31:27
Speaker 1: it might not be feasible. Now, it might not be achievable,
31:31
Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean that it's always going to stay
31:32
Speaker 1: that way. So it is that, actually, let's come back
31:35
Speaker 1: to this. You know, maybe that in a couple of
31:36
Speaker 1: years time that is more achievable or you know, we
31:39
Speaker 1: we can look at that again. So maybe that yet
31:42
Speaker 1: is the most powerful word in that sentence.
31:45
Speaker 3: Yes, we always say yet we will get there is
31:50
Speaker 3: more time than we'd like.
31:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And I shared a quote in our webinar.
31:55
Speaker 1: I just have said, you know, the regulators, they're not
31:57
Speaker 1: looking for perfection, they're looking for progress. So it's not
32:01
Speaker 1: about getting all your ducks in a row. You're never
32:04
Speaker 1: going to reach perfection. You're never going to be at
32:05
Speaker 1: the end of this journey because you're always going to
32:07
Speaker 1: be learning, you're always going to be evolving. So it's
32:09
Speaker 1: about that progress is actually right? What progress can we
32:12
Speaker 1: make now? What progress you know, can we look at
32:14
Speaker 1: making in the future. That's key, isn't it? And that's
32:18
Speaker 1: where the word yet fits.
32:20
Speaker 3: Yeah, and we're making progress and we're measuring it. Yes,
32:25
Speaker 3: get the measuring, and we.
32:26
Speaker 2: All get excited by the doing and.
32:29
Speaker 3: The design and the delivery. We have to be as
32:31
Speaker 3: excited about the measurements of that.
32:33
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, absolutely, Oh, thank you, Thank you, Lauren. So
32:37
Speaker 1: you've shared a huge amount of information. I know that
32:40
Speaker 1: people are going to take a lot away from this
32:42
Speaker 1: episode today. Are there any final thoughts that you want
32:45
Speaker 1: to share just before we wrap up?
32:47
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I would say if you've listened to
32:49
Speaker 3: this and thought, BlimE me, there's a lot to go up.
32:52
Speaker 2: We could be doing so many things. Get in touch,
32:56
Speaker 2: you know.
32:56
Speaker 3: The first thing we do with firms who are who
32:59
Speaker 3: we make you haven't worked with before is just go like, okay,
33:01
Speaker 3: let's take a step back.
33:02
Speaker 2: Where are you and what's worked? Well, what's the challenge?
33:05
Speaker 2: Where are you at?
33:06
Speaker 3: Is it you're ready for an ongoing lived experience community.
33:10
Speaker 3: Is it that you kind of need to focus on
33:11
Speaker 3: one topic first? I'm very happy to have conversations with
33:15
Speaker 3: where people are at and kind of work that out
33:18
Speaker 3: and work out the right next steps depending.
33:21
Speaker 2: On the kind of where films are in that maturity level.
33:25
Speaker 3: And yeah, I think just know as always, one of
33:28
Speaker 3: the great things about working in the customer inclusion space
33:32
Speaker 3: is people want to share best practice and learnings and
33:34
Speaker 3: it's okay to ask for help and talk about what
33:38
Speaker 3: you're the things you're struggling with, or the things you're doing,
33:40
Speaker 3: and ye know that there's a huge amount of resources
33:42
Speaker 3: out there as well.
33:44
Speaker 1: Brilliant, fantastic, Thank you, Lauren, and we'll put all your
33:46
Speaker 1: details in the episode description as well, so people will
33:50
Speaker 1: know how to get in touch with you. Also for
33:52
Speaker 1: the listeners, Lauren and I have both mentioned a webinar
33:57
Speaker 1: sort of last month, Lauren joined me with a couple
34:00
Speaker 1: of other panelists for a webinar where we looked more
34:03
Speaker 1: deeply at inclusive design. So I will also put the
34:07
Speaker 1: link to that webinar in the episode descriptions as well,
34:10
Speaker 1: so please do check that out. There's a lot more information.
34:13
Speaker 1: We've condensed it down to this short episode, but there's
34:15
Speaker 1: a lot more powerful thoughts and our ideas in that
34:19
Speaker 1: episode in that webinar, so please do check that out.
34:23
Speaker 1: So it just leaves me to say thank you so
34:25
Speaker 1: much Lauren for being a guest today, and thank you
34:27
Speaker 1: for sharing all of your insights and you know and
34:29
Speaker 1: all that you're doing to help customers achieve the outcome
34:32
Speaker 1: that is in their best interest. So thank you so much.
34:36
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.
34:37
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Thank you and thank you for joining us,
34:40
Speaker 1: and I look forward to you joining me on my
34:41
Speaker 1: next episode. Thank you for joining us for this episode
34:45
Speaker 1: of unlock in Vulnerability. If today's conversation has resonated with you,
34:50
Speaker 1: please feel free to share it with others who may
34:52
Speaker 1: find it useful. You'll find more episodes like this by
34:55
Speaker 1: searching unlock in Vulnerability wherever you listen to podcasts. If
35:00
Speaker 1: this episode has left you with questions about any aspect
35:03
Speaker 1: of consumer vulnerability, I regularly host free Q and A
35:07
Speaker 1: sessions on Zoom, where you're welcome to join the conversation.
35:11
Speaker 1: You can find out more at HELENPETTERFO dot com. Thank
35:14
Speaker 1: you for listening, and please take care