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How Hypnosis Really Works with Luke Chao, Hon. B.A · The Trauma Therapist

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  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Trauma THEAPIS podcast. My name is G McPherson.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I interview incredible people who've dedicated their lives to helping
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: those who have been impacted by trauma. Here we go, Sanaa,
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  Speaker 1: are you ready?
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  Speaker 2: I'm ready?
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  Speaker 1: All right, Here we go So five four, three, two
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  Speaker 1: and one, our folks, welcome back to the podcast. Very
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  Speaker 1: excited to have as micas today. Doctor SHANEA. Thomas, Shaneia, Welcome, Helloka,
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  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me here. Awesome. Doctor Shaneia Thomas
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  Speaker 1: is a tech X speaker, award winning sexuality educator, and
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  Speaker 1: clinical social worker with over twenty years of experience in Washington,
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  Speaker 1: d C. They serve as the LGBTQ plus Training Specialist
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  Speaker 1: at the University of Maryland School of Public Health and
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  Speaker 1: Lead Thomas Counsel. Thomas consulting in therapeutic services, helping organizations
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  Speaker 1: create more inclusive trauma informed spaces. A former USC lecturer
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  Speaker 1: and ASEX twenty twenty four Sexuality Educator of the Year,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Thomas focuses on grief, identity, and preventing burnout among
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  Speaker 1: marginalized providers. Their upcoming book, Accountable Care and Identity Camaraderie
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  Speaker 1: for Transgender and Queer service Providers. Preventing Burnout will be
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  Speaker 1: published by Bloomsbury in twenty twenty six. All right, just
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  Speaker 1: a little bit about you, Shania before we go in
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  Speaker 1: here shore with the listeners. Where you're from originally and
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  Speaker 1: where you are currently.
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  Speaker 3: I'm originally from Hampton, Virginia, most famously where Alan Iverson
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  Speaker 3: is from and Virginia Beach Tiewater area. And then now
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  Speaker 3: I live in Temple Hills, Maryland, so not too far
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  Speaker 3: from DC, in a little bit from Alexandria, Virginia.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so how did all of this start for you?
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  Speaker 1: This interest, the specialty, the specialization, Sure, and.
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  Speaker 2: I'll speak to kind of grief and sexuality education because
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  Speaker 2: they kind of came hand in hand. But again from Hampton, Virginia,
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  Speaker 2: I was kind of like every other kid. I didn't
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  Speaker 2: know what I wanted. I knew I wanted to go
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  Speaker 2: to college. I didn't know what I was going to
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  Speaker 2: do in high school. I did you know, I worked
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  Speaker 2: in the hospital. I was kind of candy striper. So
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  Speaker 2: go doing volunteer and somebody said, oh, psychology, you should,
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  Speaker 2: you know, think about going to help people. I said, sure.
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  Speaker 2: I went to Virginia Tech for undergrad for psychology. Loved it,
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  Speaker 2: did research there, did really cool like alcohol, Like we
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  Speaker 2: went around to tailgates and we were like measuring alcohol
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  Speaker 2: blood alcohol content through the machines. Like really cool time
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  Speaker 2: to like be a researcher, especially especially then. But I
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  Speaker 2: still didn't have an idea. I ended up coming, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to go to grad school because I didn't
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  Speaker 2: want to be a psychologist. So I ended up going
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  Speaker 2: to Howard University for a visit and I fell in
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  Speaker 2: love with the area. You know, Luckily my parents we
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  Speaker 2: always visited DC just because it's a tourist spot, and
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  Speaker 2: so I was pretty comfortable. But I think what got
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  Speaker 2: me into grief and sexuality education is is my professor,
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  Speaker 2: the late doctor Philip Lucas. He taught human sexuality studies
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  Speaker 2: and he worked at the Went Center for Lost and
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  Speaker 2: Healing as a grief counselor. And he told us he
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  Speaker 2: worked at the Morgue, and I said, tell me more,
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  Speaker 2: tell me about that, and yeah, and so that's kind
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  Speaker 2: of he became my mentor, and I decided to do
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  Speaker 2: those two things. I wanted to talk about human sexuality
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  Speaker 2: education and I wanted to do grief counseling, and I
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  Speaker 2: got to work two years at the Morgue, and I
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  Speaker 2: will say that took me off into not only talking
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  Speaker 2: about grief, loss and trauma, but also like what is
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  Speaker 2: a better way we can take care of ourselves, especially
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  Speaker 2: when we're on this side of the earth. So yeah,
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  Speaker 2: that's how I got started.
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  Speaker 1: To heavy duty, heavyweight paths right there. Let's take the
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  Speaker 1: sexuality piece. What about that drew you compelled? You interested?
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  Speaker 2: You sure? So? Hampton, Virginia, I will say, is part
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  Speaker 2: of the South. Parents are from North Carolina and Georgia,
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  Speaker 2: and we just never talked about sexuality in my household.
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  Speaker 2: It was just, you know, it was kind of I
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  Speaker 2: knew the talks were coming, but they never came. My
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  Speaker 2: mom just placed a stack of books on my bed
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  Speaker 2: and said, here you go, figure it out. And I
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  Speaker 2: think that's kind of what started my path, especially in academia.
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  Speaker 2: But I just I had questions, especially because my family
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  Speaker 2: was very religious Southern Baptist, and I just didn't understand
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  Speaker 2: like if my body feels this way, like if it
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  Speaker 2: feels good, or if I'm questioning who I'm supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be in relationship with, like is God going to be
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  Speaker 2: mad at me, like what does that mean? So there
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  Speaker 2: was just a lot of things that I just didn't
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  Speaker 2: get answers on, and so it wasn't until grad school.
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  Speaker 2: Like I was a diehard Jesus freak all the way
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  Speaker 2: up through through college, and then when I got to
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  Speaker 2: grad school, I really began questioning my sexuality, my gender
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  Speaker 2: when I started working with kids in the schools and
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  Speaker 2: they were coming to me seeking around like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I'm feeling funny, you know my body. You know I
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  Speaker 2: feel this way, but my body feels another way. I
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  Speaker 2: also think it was a path of like I want
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  Speaker 2: to help myself and help other people, and so just
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  Speaker 2: learning about different parts of sexuality, different parts of gender.
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  Speaker 2: I think it was a I wanted to find liberation
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  Speaker 2: around that for other people, but I think it was
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  Speaker 2: a lot of for myself too, which is why a
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  Speaker 2: lot of us get into this work, right, and just.
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  Speaker 1: For our listeners to differentiate, if you will, will sexuality
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  Speaker 1: and gender one hundred percent.
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  Speaker 2: So when we're talking about sex, Let's say, if we're
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  Speaker 2: talking about sex, we are talking about body composition, right, hormones, chromosomes,
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  Speaker 2: What body parts do you have? What are the things
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  Speaker 2: that just make up your body, right, they don't have
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  Speaker 2: any necessarily sense of like a we haven't described or
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  Speaker 2: given them a sense of personality. Yet they're just who
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  Speaker 2: you are. They're all kind of your your meat suit,
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  Speaker 2: if you want to say. But when we were talking
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  Speaker 2: about I love it, right, I love me too. But
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  Speaker 2: then if we're talking about gender, we are talking about
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  Speaker 2: what's in between our head and not what's in between
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  Speaker 2: our legs. It is who we are, how we define ourselves.
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  Speaker 2: And I kind of look as like, yeah, who we
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  Speaker 2: define ourselves first, and then how everybody else sees us.
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  Speaker 2: But this is really about kind of like who you are.
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  Speaker 2: So I like to always talk and then you know,
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  Speaker 2: of course you're gonna talk about attraction, right, so who
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  Speaker 2: you're attracted to romantically, blatonically, intimately. So yeah, I those
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  Speaker 2: are things that I didn't get in you know, elementary school,
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  Speaker 2: middle school, and so it wasn't until I was older
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  Speaker 2: and exploring for myself who I was, until I was
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  Speaker 2: able to differentiate some of those pieces and really also
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  Speaker 2: give that information to my kids too in a way
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  Speaker 2: of like yeah, your body is changing in this way
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  Speaker 2: or you are changing in this way. But yes, sometimes
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  Speaker 2: it's not gonna mess. The way you think you're, who
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  Speaker 2: you're attracted to is gonna be And so yeah, that
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  Speaker 2: was cool. I worked for five years at Whitmanwalker Health,
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  Speaker 2: which is in Washington, d C. They're grounded and working
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  Speaker 2: with LGBTQ folks and people with HIV and AIDS. So
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: working at Whitman Walker as a U psycle therapist was
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  Speaker 2: also really enlightening because I'm working with these kiddos, you know,
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  Speaker 2: these nine, ten eleven year olds, and they're just like,
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  Speaker 2: I'm having feelings, you know, I'm thinking about my life differently.
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  Speaker 2: The parents are struggling to so I think the way
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  Speaker 2: that I got into this again, I think it's all
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  Speaker 2: about liberation, but some of it would also like giving
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  Speaker 2: proper education to folks so they can make the best
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  Speaker 2: decision they can for themselves.
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  Speaker 1: We're obviously in a very crazy time right now in
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  Speaker 1: terms of LGBTQ rights and everything. I'm curious, what do
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  Speaker 1: you feel you brought to that work you were doing
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  Speaker 1: with those young.
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  Speaker 2: Kids language because you.
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  Speaker 1: You were dealing with your own you know. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, every time I think about my story, I'm like, oh, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: me too, Like, you know, I even kind of joke
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  Speaker 2: now like the DEI work today is the LGBTQ work
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  Speaker 2: of twenty years ago, right Like, I've been in this
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  Speaker 2: a pretty long time. So I think the thing that
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  Speaker 2: I will say that I brought is like language, a framework,
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  Speaker 2: you know, I love to you know, now my trainings
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  Speaker 2: have moved to one on one and we're moving into
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  Speaker 2: client development. We're moving into clinician development. Who are you
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: to your clients? How are you coming out surviving trauma,
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  Speaker 2: surviving the world being on fire? Right Like, I think
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  Speaker 2: that the thing that I love that I bring, the
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  Speaker 2: thing that I love that I bring to this work
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  Speaker 2: is a sense of self is space. Like I don't
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  Speaker 2: feel like people have a lot of space to talk
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  Speaker 2: about these nuances and conversations about how we are evolving
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  Speaker 2: in the really traumatic world that we're living in right now.
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  Speaker 2: And I feel like my work and I love to say,
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  Speaker 2: even in my TED talk, I talk about LGBTQ work
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  Speaker 2: or sex and gender as a vehicle, but it's not
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  Speaker 2: the whole machine, right Like, you can replace you can
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  Speaker 2: talk about gender, class, you know, ethnicity, you know, a
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  Speaker 2: physical ability, mental ability, like we can talk about differences
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  Speaker 2: all across the board. They still need space, right, they
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  Speaker 2: still need to feel safe. If we're gonna get to
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  Speaker 2: a point of liberation for everybody, we got to consider
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  Speaker 2: everybody and think about how that takes away or brings
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  Speaker 2: forth resources. So I think I love living in the
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  Speaker 2: gray area, you know, I love living in kind of
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  Speaker 2: that in between where it's just like I got your
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  Speaker 2: hard information, but we also need to do a little
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  Speaker 2: processing too. So yeah, I feel like, you know, even
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  Speaker 2: things like my book, like I feel like I'm offering
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  Speaker 2: a sense of sitting in the nuance of feeling even
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  Speaker 2: in the work that we're doing out in the world.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the grief piece too. How did that
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  Speaker 1: You talked about your mentor he worked at the morgue.
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  Speaker 1: What does one do when they're working at the mark?
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  Speaker 1: There are several things, but what do you do?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah? So I was a part of a team called
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  Speaker 2: Recover through the Went Center for Lost and Healing. And
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: at Recover we were on site in order to help
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  Speaker 2: people who came into identify bodies public deaths, if they're
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  Speaker 2: of a certain age, if they're in the hospital, they're
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  Speaker 2: coming to identify the body. We're not prone to like
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  Speaker 2: give information, you know, this is not a light. Let
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  Speaker 2: me tell you what I saw. This is about Hey,
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  Speaker 2: we id by photo. Hey, we have a photo of
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  Speaker 2: your loved one. We just need a positive ID for
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  Speaker 2: you to sign the paperwork so we can get the
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: death certificate process and basically hook you up with a
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: funeral home. Now, a part of my job is also
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  Speaker 2: I went to the what we call morning meeting, and
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  Speaker 2: this is where we're seeing all the information about the
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  Speaker 2: deaths that happened the night before. Two nights before you
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  Speaker 2: get to see the photos, you get to see the scenes.
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  Speaker 2: You sit with the chief medical examiner, who was a brilliant,
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  Speaker 2: brilliant man at the time, and it was really cool
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  Speaker 2: to just learn you're not only looking at the scene,
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  Speaker 2: but you're trying to figure out what happened, you know, just.
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  Speaker 1: Like okay, let me let me, let me interrupt you,
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  Speaker 1: and sho, Okay, this.
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  Speaker 2: Is intense, isn't that's ready?
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  Speaker 1: So, so how old were you at the time.
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  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I just got to know that had to be.
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  Speaker 2: This was before my kiddo, way before my kiddo. I
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  Speaker 2: would say about eight nine years ago.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so before after college, after you.
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  Speaker 2: Got after grad school, after grad school probably, but yeah,
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  Speaker 2: I was. I was in my thirties. I'll say that
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  Speaker 2: I was, Yeah, I was. I came out of schools
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  Speaker 2: and this was my first like run of grief work.
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  Speaker 2: So I did a children's group and that was my
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  Speaker 2: toe in and then I was just like, I want
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  Speaker 2: to do the recover program. And so I finally got
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: looped in and I will say I was, yeah, I
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  Speaker 2: was twenty nine thirty.
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  Speaker 1: Why did you want to do I'm not judging, but
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  Speaker 1: I'm curious about you. Why did you want to do
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  Speaker 1: that program?
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  Speaker 2: I have always been a questioner of death. I always
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  Speaker 2: wanted to know more, tell me more what happens. And
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  Speaker 2: my mom's side of the family, they're very like death
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  Speaker 2: of hers. They don't want to talk about it, they
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  Speaker 2: don't want to know and not at all. And I
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  Speaker 2: was just I was always thinking again in that gray area,
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  Speaker 2: like what is that line between life and death? Like
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  Speaker 2: tell me more? Like why are people so scared of it?
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  Speaker 2: And nobody could tell me? And I will say that
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  Speaker 2: that more job hard, but the best job I've ever had,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: because everybody processes grief differently. You never know how somebody's
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  Speaker 2: going to react. When you turn that photo over, you
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  Speaker 2: just never know, and you can guess. You could say,
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  Speaker 2: like a mom's gonna come in and they're gonna see
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  Speaker 2: their child and they're going to weep. I would have
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  Speaker 2: a mom come in and she was drunk and she
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  Speaker 2: was just like, this is my third child, Sign it away,
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  Speaker 2: tell me when the funeral home comes to pick up
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  Speaker 2: his body and move on. Or you have a dad
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  Speaker 2: that I had that came men had child that had
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: completed suicide, and he was so angry with him because
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: he was like, he was supposed to come on a
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: trip with us, and he was supposed to be with
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: the family. And as soon as you turning that photo over.
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  Speaker 2: I sat with that dad for an hour as he
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  Speaker 2: told all of these wonderful childhood photos and at the
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  Speaker 2: end he was like, this is my child, this is
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  Speaker 2: my child, and we just cried. You just never know
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  Speaker 2: how people were going to react. I thought that kids
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  Speaker 2: were going to affect me in a certain way. It
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: was it was really the people who were just left
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  Speaker 2: behind without anybody to claim like, those are the people
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  Speaker 2: who like hurt me the most. So yeah, I was
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: into it because I we don't have people like that, right.
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  Speaker 2: You don't hear a lot of people doing that, and
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  Speaker 2: people would leave and they're like, I don't even I
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  Speaker 2: can't even imagine you doing this all day. But I
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  Speaker 2: loved it. I loved it. I really didn't. I love
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  Speaker 2: I love doing that work.
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  Speaker 1: So as you look back, now, what did you take
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  Speaker 1: from that work?
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  Speaker 2: What is the people ask like, what is the number
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  Speaker 2: one thing I have to deal with in my work?
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  Speaker 2: I always say it's grief and loss. I say it's
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  Speaker 2: unresolved grief and loss. Whether it's death, whether it's loss
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  Speaker 2: of a family structure, whether it's your cousin went to
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  Speaker 2: jail and you don't know what happened to them, whether
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  Speaker 2: it's somebody ran away, it's always grief. And so that's
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  Speaker 2: what I look for in any work that I do,
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  Speaker 2: whether it's strategic planning with organizations all the way down
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  Speaker 2: to working in somebody's home. Where's the loss? Right? How
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  Speaker 2: are you processing the loss? What did that person leave behind?
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  Speaker 2: How are you going to continue to carry the thing
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: that a person left behind? And I think you can
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: apply that anywhere, right, So, as soon as I was
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: starting to dig into what people were missing, that's where
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I saw change happening. Because I feel like, especially when
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: we're talking about what's happening nowadays with jobs, right, like
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: the jobs leave, you know, you lose the job, but
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: what is the process for you to move forward? I
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: feel like there's something that we just don't talk about
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  Speaker 2: a lot. So yeah, I will say that, always look
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: for where the gaps are, who's missing, what's missing, and
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  Speaker 2: how are people moving on and how have they changed
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: after the change has happened.
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  Speaker 1: So let me just remind everyone speaking with doctor SHANEA. Thomas,
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: their upcoming book is titled Accountable Care and Identity Camaraderie
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: for Transgender and Queer Service Providers Preventing Burnout. So let's
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: talk about this forthcoming book. Why did you write.
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: It straight my dissertation? Well, it started on my dissertation.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to waste the work that was. I've
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: always been that person where it's like if I'm writing
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: it too much.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: I've read that title. I was like, damn a.
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: Document, were gonna make it into something? And somebody found
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: me at a conference and they believed in it, and
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: they were like, this is something that we need to me.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: Is Niche right where it's just like sure pere support
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: as gender folks. You know we're talking about burnout. Like
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: to me it was niche, but somebody was just like, no,
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: we do need this. And as I was writing it,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: I found it was important to talk about as we
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: are going through this rough time, as COVID has happened
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: or is happening, as we are going through all of
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: these changes in the world, organizations do need to think
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: about how to restructure themselves in order to make sure
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: that we're keeping the best people in business as long
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: as possible. And it was important for me to include
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: trans folks and queer folks because I do feel like
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: there is a unique experience that they have or that
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: we have, particularly in the medical care system. You know,
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: we're very binary. So when we're thinking about how queer folks,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: these folks who are in this beautiful, great area of
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: spectrum around gender are not getting equitable care, They're not
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: necessarily being treated a certain way in the world, I
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: feel like there is a certain perspective that's important to
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: think about when we're taking care of folks. Let's think
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: about all the things that happen, right. I feel it
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: like a lot of the examsamples that we see in
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: research are a base group of people that don't represent
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: the larger population. So I wanted to make a theory,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: and I wanted to make a framework that was built
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: on people who look like being have the same experiences,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: and what else can we learn from that group of people,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: and how we can make those experiences the standard just
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: like everybody else.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: Well, get specific, what are some things that maybe people
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: aren't aware of that they can learn from that population.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Sure, I think as we're thinking about kind of the
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: time that we're in right now, especially with things that
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: are changing in the government all over the world, where
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: I can be talking about any governments right now, I think,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: as we're thinking about laws, access to care, you have
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: a certain group of people who are going to struggle
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: a little bit more than the rest of everybody else, right,
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: And so sometimes when I'm going into organizations then they're
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: talking about a certain level of change, they don't even
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: consider what's happening outside, you know, they don't even consider
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: people's identity. So I feel like this book really kind
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: of brings in this idea of no, we have to
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: make it a standard to think about how identity, whether
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: it's gender, race, how folks evolve in their experiences around
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: gender and race, how those things apply to how we
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: give treatment. I think it's also to think, particularly about
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: when you're talking about world issues, what are the changes,
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: because it's gonna be hard for me to concentrate at
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: work if I know that I'm losing my rights, all right,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I think that those have to be a standard of
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: something that that organizations have to do. I don't think
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: it should be an afterthought, and I have just worked
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: in a lot of organizations to where thinking about what's
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: happening in people's personal lives is an afterthought. If you
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: want the best work out of people, you have to
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: consider them. One thing that I always joke about is
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: there's a piece that I suggest around like tangible rewards.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Do we want more than just pizza parties and T shirts?
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: Of course we do, right, but they also feel good
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: to get right. So it's like, don't lose some of
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: the good stuff that we're already doing. But please consider
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: the way that identity shows up in some of these
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: workplaces and some of these organizational places, especially when we're
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: talking about caregivers, healthcare workers, social workers, counselors, trauma therapists
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: who are doing this work out in the world. There's
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: just a different level of stress that's being experienced right now,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and we're losing some pretty good people.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking that a lot of people would have an
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: issue with this. I don't care because they can't relate,
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: they can't identify, they don't care. But this book, who's
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: the book for?
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: So I always say that this book is for higher
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: level administrators kind of organizations, and I think this is
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: also a good argument for people who are doing the
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: work service practice to say, hey, there's a thing that
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: I know, I have an experience around and that you
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: might want to read. I always like to say that
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: this is a conversation for those who are within organizations.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: I think it's for everybody who wants to see not
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: only a different change in how they are treating their employees.
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: I also think it's for the direct service workers who
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: are committed to the clients, the patients that they're working with.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Because I also talk about legacy. You know, you want
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: to do good work in your organization, so other people
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: who would want to work there. Right. So, if I'm
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: a peer support worker and my organization is not taking
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: care of me, no, I'm not going to tell the
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: person I'm working with, you don't want to work here,
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: right but I think I pick peer support workers because
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: it is important that the experiences that are brought outside
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: and brought inside are used in order to keep people
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: in the work right. People come to peer support because
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: they want to share themselves. But if you don't make
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: it a space that's safe enough, that feels good, where
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: they fill a firm, people are not going to stay.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: So then that aspect of like care that we give
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: to people, especially on a volunteer basis, is not going
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: to stick around the way that we want to. So
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: I always like to say, like it's a gift to
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: higher level folks, but it's a conversation amongst everybody.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Do you feel that organization? I mean, I guess there
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: are certain types of organizations, such as you mentioned peer support.
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking healthcare would would would generally speaking, would people
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: in healthcare be more amenable to this idea, would it
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: be more welcoming to this idea as opposed to maybe?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm I'm just guessing here, Like what
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: an automotive industry, you know, what are your thoughts on that?
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: I think it can be transferable. I definitely think that
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the part when I talk about Bernard out specifically talking
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: about the experiences that we that started out in COVID
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: because the surge, right of just like the need of
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: mental health services and how there was a level of
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: breakdown where I do feel like there is some crossover.
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: Is there should be a conversation amongst automotive industries restaurants, right,
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: I think that these high level, very high stress places
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: can also think about what else can we do. I've
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: also kind of applied this to academic spaces as well.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: I come from academia that is also kind of like
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: my main place of work and where I like to
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: give my time, and I feel like even in those spaces,
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: there isn't a huge conversation around the level of burnout
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: that's happening in some of these faculty positions and the
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: ways that universities are able to take care of themselves,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: especially in the times that we're in. Right. Like the
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: job that I just had before here was I was
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: the ed of Accreditation and so when I was doing
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: accreditation at the time of when the new administration was
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: turning over, so there was a level of stress of
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: are people going to abide by what's happening and are
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: people going to buy by what's happening, and then on
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: the other side, like, how are we going to keep
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: these really good faculty members, these really good staff members
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: doing what they need to when the world's on fire.
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: So I think it's a little bit for health I
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: think it's a letter to healthcare workers. I think it
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: definitely can apply to academia, but I definitely don't think
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: there isn't anything also great for other people who want
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: to access it to, especially if you're working with queer
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: and trans folks. And maybe that's also a piece where
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: people can come in where it's like, I don't even
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: necessarily know about this piece, but if I want to
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: understand how queer and trans folks within healthcare systems need
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: to be supported, this is also a book for them
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: as well.
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: So depending obviously, depending on in what context you're sitting,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the conversation is going to be different.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and I think it should be a conversation.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: A part of the recommendations that I make, particularly with
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: the book, is there should be more people within your
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: direct service staff and your volunteer staff making decisions about
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: how you are going to take care of the staff.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: I find that a lot of folks, especially in academia,
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: a lot of the people making those higher level decisions
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: haven't done the on the groundwork. They haven't been in
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: folks's homes, they haven't done the casework, they haven't done
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: the grief work. So when you have these folks making
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: the decisions and you're just giving them to the people
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: actually doing them, sometimes it doesn't translate in the way
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: that you think that it's going to. And it also
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: softens or eliminates the voice of the people actually doing it,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: so they don't feel like they can have some level
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: of participation in making the policies the rules of the organization.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: So I think this is a conversation. That's what I'm
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: pushing for anyway. I would like for everybody to have
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: a conversation about and how to include people at the table.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: I think we have done a lot of like we
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: want more people to look like a certain way to
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: come to the table, but I don't think we've done
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: a good job of implementation. And what does success defining
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: what success looks like afterwards for everybody?
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: Ooh, well like that. I like that. What were some
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: of the insights you gained from doing this research, from
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: writing this book? What are some surprises that you encountered.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't think. So, you know, I like to joke
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: and say I'm a professional gay like usually, you know,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: I like to take my gay everywhere in some way,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: shape or form. And I thought I had it down.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Like I thought it was just like, yeah, I understand
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: gender and sexuality, and when you're making groups or constructing
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: therapy groups, like you know, you have transmen over here,
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: trans woman over here, and we're just going to get along.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought. There was one really interesting part
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: where transt most of my I had five participants, three
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: were trans transmen, trans black men, and two were gender
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: queer folks. And so one of the gender queer folks
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: who had made a who had did a physical medical transition,
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: talked about the difficulty that he was having in his
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: group because he had transitioned at that point twelve years
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: before and gender firm and care has changed, you know,
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: multiple times over since then. So he was talking about
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: the difficulty that he was having and connecting with his
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: group members because he was so far into his transition
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: that the way that people were talking about the way
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: that they wanted to transition or not wanted to transition,
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: or socially transition, but not medically transition. He was so
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: foreign to like he was just like I, even here
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: as a trans person, I feel like I can't connect
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: with these other trans folks because the way that we
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: are transitioning is different because of the time right, because
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: of the time period that we're in. I thought that
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: was fascinating. And then also in thinking about race, you
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: had these you know, these three black trans men talk
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: about there were times where I was always trans, but
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: there were sometimes where I had to step back on
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: being black because I was the only black person in
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: the room, or if somebody had a question about race,
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: I was kind of you know, charged to being the person,
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: to being the token in the room, to answering the questions.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: So you just it was just things where it's just like, yeah,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: when we put groups together and think about like all
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: men over here, all women over here, all transpholts over here,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: we just think that everybody's gonna have a homogeneous experience,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and that's just not true. I just didn't even think
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: about that with this, even the small group of trans
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: folks that I was interviewing and researching, I didn't even
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: think those differences were gonna come up, So that was
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: something that was fascinating to me.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, it's getting back to as we kind
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: of wind down here, but in this in this era,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: in this politically charged era with regards to l g
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: B t Q rights, what do you what do you
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: see happening? Do you feel it's this is even make
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: things more difficult, more challenging for you?
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: It is? It is. I will always say first and foremost,
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: I'm always concerned about safety. Right Like, anytime my face
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: is somewhere, my name somewhere, my pronouns or somewhere, I'm
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: always concerned about safety. I think that this was like
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: twenty years ago, i'd be less concerned. But now I
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: have like a really lovely seven year old that I
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: have to also consider, so as being a family person,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: I have to worry about that. I think that it
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: has already gotten difficult. I've had clients talk about difficulty
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: in getting their medication, having things randomly canceled. I had
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: one person have there they got their passport back, it
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: has the wrong gender on it. A lot of particularly
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: queer and trans therapists are finding different ways to communicate
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: with each other. That's not definitely not on like a
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: main stream app or something like that. So we're finding
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: different ways, but we're also being creative. And I think
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I'm learning a lot from you know, my ancestors. Now
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: you know Miss Major just passed away two days ago.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: I'm learning from James Baldwin, I'm learning from Bayard Rusten,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I'm learning from all these wonderful like queer trailblazers that
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: they were here when this time was happening then right
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: where like this has this has happened before, and we
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: have still survived and we are still here. It's just
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: how do we survive community. So the more that I'm
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: like in community, the more that I can talk to
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: folks like you, get the word out that this is
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: an issue that we all should be concerned with, because
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: it's not just queer and trans folks. They're coming for
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: all of us, right like gender affirming cares for everybody.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: So if you know, even if you're a ciss gender
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: heterosexual woman and you take hormones, those aren't going to
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: be access to you either, So we we I think
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: where where it's got it has gotten harder. I think
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: we've just gotten more creative and will just continue to
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: get more creative until the tide turns.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: Wow, Shaneia, there's something about you that is there's there's
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: a river of what a river of strength running through you,
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: like a river of positivity running through you that I
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: can feel. And I'm wondering if this was always with you,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: Were you always swimming in this or was it something
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: that you realized about yourself.
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: Hmm. That's so nice because I'm like grieving right now,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: so I'm like, oh, like, it's good that you can
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: see that. I just think people, I think, I think
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: liberation is possible. You know. I if I had these
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: like wonderful people that I like follow and believe in
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: and like I believe in my my queerness and I
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: believe in humanity, like I ain't got no choice, especially now,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: to be able to believe that we can make it right.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: When I had my previous job, I used to joke
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: like social work, like it's a super Bowl, Like this
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: is our super Bowl right now? What do you mean
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: there are like forces coming after us and want to
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: destroy us, Like, no, bring out the Avengers, right, bring
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: out this. This is this is why I watched The
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: X Men, which I want to shout out there. I
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: feel I feel like me watching the x men and
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: cause me to be this person. So yeah, hasn't always
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: been there, No, but when I when I see other
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: people doing it and telling me I can do it,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: like I ain't got no choice.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: So love it. I love it. Well, Look, thank you
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: so much for being here. I'd love to have you back.
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Talk to you. Yeah. Let our listeners know how they
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: can learn more about you, how they can learn more
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: about the book. What's the best way?
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: Sure? Our best way always google me. I'm around my
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: uh my Instagram is doctor SHANEA. S h A and E. A. Thomas.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: You can find me there. I'm on LinkedIn. Yeah, I'm
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: here and willing to help too. I also want to say, like,
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: I know a lot of folks out there are like,
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: how can I do the strange things you're doing. I
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: love to talk to folks, so just let me know
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: how I can help. We're all in this together.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you, by yes, and we'll have that all that
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: link up here at the show notes page at the
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Trauma Therapist podcast dot com. Shane Awesome, I.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: Love it, Thank you, thank you.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: Bye.