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Was The Zodiac Built On A Lie? · Midnight Movie Theatre

• 0:40
  Speaker 1: I'm here with Eddie McNamara, author of the book Zodia Actually,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: the Real Story of a Fake serial Killer. Thanks for
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: joining me, Eddie, go ahead and tell me a little
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: bit about your book Zodia.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Actually.
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, thanks for having me. I'm really excited to
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: be doing this. Yes, I wrote a book about the
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: Zodiac case. But really it's about what we know about
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac case from the media, say, the Fincher film
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: and the Robert Graysmith book and sort of the Netflix documentaries.
• 1:06
  Speaker 3: And I did a deep dive of real research and
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: then the police files, into court records, into statements that
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: police officers and people involved have made over the years.
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: And I contrasted the sort of urban legend of the
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Zodiac which is presented into movies and sort of in
• 1:25
  Speaker 3: true crime, with the actual facts of the case and
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: what was happening at the time and what the police
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: officers believe. And it doesn't line up. Sorry, I guess
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: this is a spoiler, but it doesn't line up at all.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: The story of the Zodiac is a very good story.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: It's a very sellable story. It's a great urban legend.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: It's just not based in reality.
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that is something that I noticed, like right away,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: how long did you work on this book or how
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: long ago were you getting into the zodiac stuff.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: I'd say I'd started in twenty twenty one and then
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: but that was like half on, half off. I had
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: a novel, I had a short story collection, and then
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: I spent three years after that full time researching this
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: and full time running it. And so yeah, about three
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: years full time, five years total, okay, And it's just
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: I kept finding stranger and stranger facts about people involved.
• 2:18
  Speaker 4: In this case, and it, you know, it's the Fincher film.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: Is about people who are obsessed with the zodiac, and I,
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: you know, I can relate to that because I think
• 2:26
  Speaker 3: it sort of you know, took over my life for
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: at least you know, three to five years, you know,
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: and still, you know, still I'm like entering emails all day,
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: you know, before we did this podcast, I was, I
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: was fielding emails, both positive and negatives.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: I don't see it leaving anytime soon.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Have you noticed any like anyone favoring more positive or
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: negative attention for the book since it's come out?
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I mean getting a lot of really
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: good reviews. So like the reviews up on Amazon are
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: really good, and a lot of people read the book,
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: and you know, people who are into Zodiac but don't
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: have a Zodiac business. So someone who's maybe you know,
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: sort of been researching the case for a number of years.
• 3:03
  Speaker 3: That type of person will be like, you did great
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: research in the book. They don't have to agree with
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: me about everything, but they'll they'll be like, you know,
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: some of the things were right in front of our
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: face this whole time, and you pointed it out. And
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: I've gotten a lot of responses like that, both in
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: email and in reviews from longtime Zodiac researchers. But someone
• 3:20
  Speaker 3: who's selling Zodiac, someone who has a web page about Zodiac,
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: or someone who has, you know, a Zodiac podcast or
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: a documentary about you know, their grandfather as a suspect,
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: they don't like this book because why would they.
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: It's a fact check on their grift. I can see that. Yeah,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I've I've got a copy of your book right here.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: I'll go ahead and plug that. I'm about halfway through.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: I haven't finished it yet, but man, I've been like
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: burning through this thing. As soon as it showed up,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: I was like, this is my focus. I put whatever book.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: I was reading on pause, and I was like, this
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: is what I wanted when I first got into the Zodiac,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: because it was probably about three years ago for me,
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: and it was kind of like I'm off and on
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: into true crime, you know what I mean, Like some
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: of its good, so it's whatever. And when I first
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: heard the story, I heard the straightforward thing and I
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: was like, Okay, there's got to be more to this,
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: and I just kept running into kind of like what
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: you described as like griffs and it's like, yeah, people
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: like my dad's a Zodiac, you know, and all this shit.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: So eventually I kind of got off of it, and
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: this is exactly what I was wanting, something that's more factual.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: It's because I.
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: Don't know, if you agree the original story, it feels
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: like they start off with like the Zodiac did all
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: these things. You don't need to know why we think
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: this kind of it's just yea, it is what it.
• 4:30
  Speaker 3: Is because the newspaper said so, because he wrote a
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: letter to He wrote a letter to the newspaper and
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: said he did this, and now we believe this serial
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: killer slash crank letter writer. So it's you know, and
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: it's that that whole thing that I begin the book
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: with the whole print, the legend. So once the story
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: is out there, no matter how fantastical it is, the
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: you know, the story is what people remember, not the retraction.
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: I go into in the first chapter.
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: You know humerous stories of the nineteen sixties, like the
• 4:57
  Speaker 3: Burning bra and you know the Kitty Jenevie's a true
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: crime case that you know, supposedly thirty seven of her
• 5:03
  Speaker 3: neighbors looked away as she was being murdered, but you
• 5:06
  Speaker 3: know they actually came out and helped. They sat with
• 5:08
  Speaker 3: her as she bled out, They chased the perpetrator away.
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: It was a failure of the ambulance system. It took
• 5:14
  Speaker 3: an hour to get there when she died. So the
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: real story is that. But the sensational the story that
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: The New York Times posted is it was in psychology
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: textbooks into the two thousands, calling it the bystander effect,
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: where people when there's a lot of people, it diffuses
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: your responsibility and you don't help out. So it's like
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: a fake psychology term that came because of this story,
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: which is just the story. No other papers reported on
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: you because it was They knew it was fake, but
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: they didn't call out the Times for it. And the
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: same thing is, my wife is a a journalist. She
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: used to work with the woman Lindsay van Gelder, who
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: wrote the story, the Burning Brad story, And the story
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: is not about a burning broad That's what her editor
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: put on the as the title of the story. The
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: stories about women protesting Miss America in like nineteen sixty seven,
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: and it has nothing to do with broad burning. The
• 5:57
  Speaker 3: story never mentions broad burning. But the editors at the
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: New York Post created a myth by sticking that title
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: on it, and people will swear that they were in
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: a protest where women were burning their bras now and
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: it's just, you know, it's not factual. And I think
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: we'd run into a lot of the same things with
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac case, where you read it in the paper,
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: you see the mysterious ciphers in the paper. You know,
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: in the sixties and seventies a lot of Bay Area
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: unsolved cases were being linked to it and people just
• 6:25
  Speaker 3: believed it.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it plays out like a comic book. Like
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: the Zodiac story. It sounds like a nineteen sixties noir
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: comic book where you have this cop chasing this guy
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: who's just taunting them and they can't catch him. And honestly,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: I wanted to believe that too, because I was like,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: this is like the craziest thing I've ever read. But
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: it was just it just felt like the more that
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: I was like trying to find it in between pieces
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: where it just is what it is, sort of response
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: It's a really great story. And the film version made
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: one hundred million at the box office. Yeah, so you know,
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: it's and every bit of entertainment from then, or entertainment
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: let's say, let's say a show like Criminal Minds or
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: lots of movies like even like Psycho Killer. They have
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: the Cat and Mouse game, and they have like the
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: Spooky you know, the Riddler in the most recent Batman
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: is based on the Zodiac.
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: It's it's become a trope.
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: So it's it's art imitating art, I guess, because you
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: know the letters are it's a comic book supervillain, this zodiac,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: you know, which is very compelling. I mean, you know,
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: comic book properties have made billions, so it's something that
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: people are very interested in. And the person writing these
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: letters struck on something that has lasted fifty six years
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: because you know, there's still articles in the newspaper, Like
• 7:37
  Speaker 3: there's some clown out there right now saying that the
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: Black Dahlia Avenger and the Zodiac killer were the same
• 7:43
  Speaker 3: person and he figured it out in a code that's
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: complete bs, Like the Black Dhalia was twenty years before Zodiac,
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: the first Zodiac victims that the guy was like twenty
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: five to thirty years old, So this dude would have
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: been like nine when he was killing the Black Dahia.
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: So it's you know, it's.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: Absurd, it's it's but it's still making somebody money.
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: They're still making Netflix documentaries about Arthur Lee Allen, and
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: you know, there's still money to be made on this story.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: But you know, again, like I really go, you know,
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: deep dive into the records and into the reports and
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: into what the cops knew, and it's certainly not what
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: we believe in the popular culture true crime version of
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: Zodiac is.
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and speaking of like some of the people involved,
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: let's go ahead and talk about Dave Toski and then
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: we'll circle back to the beginning. Go ahead and tell
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: me Dave Toski's involvement in the Zodiac, Like what when
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: did he jump into the case, because I know it
• 8:33
  Speaker 1: started in the sixties, like late sixty eight. Yeah, and
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: then Tosky got involved in was it the Toski.
• 8:39
  Speaker 3: Got involved October eleventh of nineteen sixty nine, and that's
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: when Paul Stein, a cab driver, was murdered in San Francisco,
• 8:47
  Speaker 3: and Tosky was He was a homicide detective in San Francisco.
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: He had a partner, William Armstrong.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: And they caught the case and they initially believed it
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: to be a cab robbery. So he was a detective
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: on that and they thought it was a cabra but
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: then du du du. Two days later, the newspaper gets
• 9:04
  Speaker 3: a piece of the cab driver's shirt with a letter,
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: this is the Zodiac speaking I killed that cab driver
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: and blah blah blah. So now the Zodiac is in
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: San Francisco, because previous to this, there were three Zodiac attacks.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: One happened in Napa and two happened in Solano County
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: in the Vallejo area. So you know, it's it gets
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: to the big city. Now it starts getting big city press.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Now the Zodiac is there.
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: And I think the.
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: Most interesting thing about Tosky and the thing that I
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: cannot unsee. That really sort of got me interested in
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: investigating this case in a serious way.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: Is in over twelve hundred pages.
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: Of FBI files about the Zodiac case, there's only one
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: person named as a definitive Zodiac letter writer, and it's
• 9:45
  Speaker 3: the lead investigator in the case, Dave Toski.
• 9:48
  Speaker 4: There are three FBI memos that named.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: Dave Toski as the Zodiac letter hoaxer to get publicity.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: And when the guy in charge of catching Zodiac is
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: pretending to be Zodiac, there's something there and I had
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: to figure out what it was. And to be honest,
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: every single Zodiac expert or person interested who has looked
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: at the who has done serious research and looked at
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: the FBI files has had to confront this, and apart
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: from me and I don't know who else, they look
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: away from it.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: It's inconvenient for the story.
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: You can't sell Zodiac when you're a detective has written
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: you know, he's accused of writing three and his chief
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: as the FBI, he examined the handwriting to see if
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: he wrote them all. It's something you have to purposely
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: ignore in order to sell your Zodiac story.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: You know, to some extent.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, that was one thing like when I was
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: reading about that, when I got to that part in
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: the book, it just completely reframed the way I was
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: looking at the whole thing. And it made me think
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: back to like the Fincher movie, because they I feel
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: like they briefly touch on it, but then they just
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: kind of like immediately swerve away and they're like act
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: to the story.
• 10:51
  Speaker 3: It's really it's really interesting how Fincher dealt with it,
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: because you know, Toski, the Mark Ruffalo character, is with
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: the hero of Fincher's movie and.
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: Great Smith, the author of the book. They're the hero
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: of the movie.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: And it turns out that in nineteen seventy eight in
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: the letter, when the letters brought up, Internal Affairs speaks
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: to Toski. Now, in real life, Internal Affairs took Tosky in.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: They interviewed him, They investigated him as a Zodiac letter hoaxer,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: and they also asked him his whereabouts during the Paul
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: Stein murder. They asked him about the letters. So he
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: was getting hammered and he was taken off of the
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: homicide detail. He's the top homicide detective in San Francisco.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: He's the inspiration for Dirty Harry. He's the inspiration for
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: Steve McQueen's bullet. The guy was a big shot and
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: they sent him to a punishment assignment in pawn shops
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: in real life, where he had to match stolen items
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: with pawnshop tickets. It was a public embarrassing thing that
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: his chief did to him because he was involved in
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: this letter fiasco. And the department actually and it's a
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: police department, so it's an internal investigation. So of course
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: they found him not guilty of writing the letter. But
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: then the chief goes right to the FBI and he's like,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: all right, so Toski did three can you see if
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: he did? And he has a whole list of them
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: from you know, from when the case got to San
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: Francisco to the end, and the FBI said, it's inconclusive that.
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: The same person wrote this all these letters.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: So the FBI is not even saying that the letters
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: are all from No, it's it's a it's a separate
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: California a document examiner who who verify the letters. And
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: I have a lot of issues with that because some
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: of them have been fakes and have been you know,
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: shown up to be fakes over the years, So when
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: the FBI was asked to do it, they would just like,
• 12:26
  Speaker 3: you just get out of here with this mess.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: They were like, it's inconclusive.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: Somebody may with this, it might be the same person,
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: but like, we're not going to risk our reputation with
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: this mess of a case that you guys.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: Have with your own inspector running letters.
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: So the FBI kind of backed off, and that's not
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: really FBI ish to back off, but they did know.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that was something that really stuck out to
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: me where I was like, man, this seems like something
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: you would have to focus on if you're going to
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: do zodiac stuff like or any kind of zodiac story
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: like to jump over that just seems crazy to me.
• 12:57
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's the it's the headline for
• 12:59
  Speaker 3: me of the whole thing. The most shocking, most sort
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: of interesting thing is Toski is named in the FBI
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: files as a letter writer. That's you. You can't look
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: past that. But I think there's something equally wild is
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: that the first two murders that happened that Lake Hermon Road,
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: the original detectives from Solano County Sheriff's Office and Vallejo
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: police departments, as well as the nineteen ninety one cold
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: case detectives who worked the cold case for Vallejo, have
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: all spent decades, the seventies, eighties, nineties, two thousands, doing
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: media appearances saying that, you know, we don't believe that
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: the Lake Hermon Road murders have anything to do with Zodiac.
• 13:38
  Speaker 3: We believe some local guys did those murders, and maybe
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: maybe Zodiac was inspired by it, but you know, we
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: don't think the first two are Zodiac at all. And
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: this case hinges, This Zodiac case hinges on the Zodiac
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: knowing information about those murders that the police don't even
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: think are Zodiac murders. So the entire foundation of the case,
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: and you know, I cite it in the book. I
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: had this like one hundred and fifty citations in the book,
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: and I quote these guys all over the book from
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: their media appearances. Yeah, the original investigators are very much
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: against the idea of these the first two murders zodiacal
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: credit for even being Zodiac murders. And this is another
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: very inconvenient thing because in the letters, Zodiac supposedly proves
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: that he knows information that only the killer and the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: police would know. But if these are not, if the
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: police are satisfied and they say satisfied, the cold case
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: detectives were satisfied he didn't do it, and these other
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: local drug dealers did it. If they're satisfied that that's
• 14:32
  Speaker 3: not Zodiac, then it's information that you know, it's it's
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: irrelevant to the case. It's so now somebody knows some
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: police information and maybe you should look at that for
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: your Zodiac murders.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I mean,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: when you zoom out of the four crimes that are,
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: you know that people really connect with it too. They
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: just kind of seem like random crimes like it other
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: than the letters and the phone.
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: Call or whatever.
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: It's like there's nothing, there's no connective tissue there. It
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: just sounds like somebody saying, like I did all these things.
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: Well, that's exactly what it is.
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: And there's only one handwritting expert who verifies these letters.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: There's actually no fingerprints between crime scenes. So there's there's
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: four crime scenes, five murders, and there's no fingerprint that
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: exists in multiple crime scenes. There's also no fingerprint. There's
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: no matching fingerprint between the twenty something letters associated with
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac and any of the crime scenes. Also, the
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: guns used every time were different. The eyewitnessed descriptions of
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: the man who did this were very different. The first
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: surviving victim, Michael Majeau, described the killer the shooter as
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: someone between twenty five and thirty years old, short, around
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: two hundred pounds, with curly blonde hair. The second surviving victim,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: Brian Hartnell, who is stabbed again. It's a different mo
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: This is stabbing. The guy's wearing a costume. He's wearing
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: a mask, you know, the famous Zodiac mask. He ties
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: two kids up and talks to them for fifteen minutes.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: The other ones were blitz attacks. It's completely different, and
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: he describes the guy as being between two hundred and
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: twenty five and two hundred and fifty pounds with long
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: brown hair that poked through the mask. That was that long.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: The next case is in San Francisco. The eyewitnesses in
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: the aftermath of the Polstime murder, they didn't actually witness
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: the murder or even hear a gunshot, but they saw
• 16:17
  Speaker 3: the aftermath and they described the men as a man
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: at his forties with a crew cut kind of heavy
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: set with you know, like a maybe reddish hair or
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: something like that. This guy's now fifteen years older and
• 16:28
  Speaker 3: fifty five pounds lighter than one of the other ones.
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Like I was a cop for seven years and descriptions
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: same race, descriptions are are are not this there's not
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: this much variance. Like if you're describing someone, you might
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: be off plusure minus ten pounds plusure minus, you know,
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: five to ten years, you know, one or two inches
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: in height, but not this is a wide variance of
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: you know, he could be two fifty or one eighty
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: five or forty five years old.
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: You know. It's it's it's all over the place.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, going back to the first confirmed kills, the like road,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: could you tell me like you described that as a
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: drug dealer killing. Yeah, and in the book you mentioned
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: like a thrill kill. So yeah, yeah, could you explain that?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Sure?
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: So that happened in December of sixty eight. That happened
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: there were no letters about that, There was no connection
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: to Zodiac about that. The police were sort of they
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: couldn't figure out what happened. It was almost like they
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: had an old time sort of sheriff's department. It's almost
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: like the movie No Country for Old Men. Yeah, and
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: the lead investigators very much to Tommy Lee Jones in this,
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: and he kind of doesn't know what the hell's happening.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: He's like, maybe it's a maniac.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: I don't know. And the cops in Vallejo started getting
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: information from drug arrests they were making that a local
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: drug dealer named David mcgrass had something to do with
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: the Lake Herman Road murders. And this name came up
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: a bunch of times. He's a Vallejo drug dealer. A
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: month before the second confirmed Zodiac murders, Dave McGraths is
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: arrested for throughout Killspree, where him and his friends on
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: his twenty first birthday go out. They go to a trip,
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: they get drunk, they do some drugs. They go to
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: a gas station, they rob the place of twenty bucks,
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: shoot the gas station attendant in the head. They go
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: to another gas station, kidnap the attendant, drive him out
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: to Blue Rock Springs where the Zodiac attack happens a
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: month later, and they tell the guy, all right, listen,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: you can you can leave, get out of the car,
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: just you know, run for it. We're not gonna we're
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: not going to hurt you, and he runs out of
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: the car and they shoot him in the back five times.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: It comes out that Dave mcgrass's gun used in that
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: murder was used in a murder in January of nineteen
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: seventy another thrill kill. A man named Matthew Burrell was
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: celebrating his birthday to forty six year old black men.
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: He's celebrating his birthday.
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: He's in a car a car parking lot and he's
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: shot from behind with an M one car bind which
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: was Dave's gun.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: There's no reason for it, it's just it's just a
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: straight up thrill kill.
• 18:49
  Speaker 3: But this being a black man in the nineteen sixties,
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: nineteen sixties, they're not it's not getting in a press
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: coverage of these other, you know, sort of white teenager murders,
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: in these Zodiac murders, which is unfortunate. And then Dave
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: mcgrass he ends up on death row and one of
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: his cohorts gets involved in three gun crimes and tells
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: the Vallejo police, you know, Dave McGraths did the Lake
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Herman road murders, it's not Zodiac. And then McGrath speaks
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: to a sergeant from Solano County and tells him the
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: whole story, but puts himself as a passenger in a
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: car and says that someone else did it, but he
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: says what the kids are wearing, how the murders went down.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: He seems very credible to the sergeant who was investigating this,
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: and he says that the gun they used, the twenty two,
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: was thrown in the bay. And the sergeant brings this
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: to his boss, who is like, the no country for
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: all men guy, and he's basically like, you know, this
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: guy's already on death row. No gun, no, you know,
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: we can't take it to trial for this, and they
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: sort of drop it. In nineteen seventy, it makes the
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: paper twice in nineteen seventy, you know, not the front page.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: It says that there's you know, new suspects in the
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: Lake Herman Road murders, and they say that like a
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: motorcycle gang member has testified against someone. And then there's
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: you know, there's a confession, but the gun isn't, so
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: you know, they're still working on it.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: And that's the true.
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: Story of what happened, which is page thirty four and
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: not David Fincher's movie David Fincher cuts this whole thing
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: out of the movie. He had very competent researchers working
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: on his team for the movie, So the Lake Herman
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Road murder is never addressed in his movie because Fincher
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: is actually talking with these detectives in a book in
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: two thousand, in the early two thousands, and Fincher is
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: like mcgrass and his partner their psychopaths.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: They let this guy, you know, run and then shoot
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: him in the back.
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: And that's how Betty Lou Jensen, the first Zodiac confirmed
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: murder at Lake Herman Road, was also killed. She's running
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: from a car shot in the back five times. He thinks, yeah,
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: this is probably inspiration for Arthur Lee Allen, and he
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: even he uses the names.
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: You know, mcgrass and his.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: Partner are psychopaths, and so you know, Fincher is aware
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: of this in the in the early two thousands. He
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: knows this aspect of the case. The cold case detectives
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: are telling him like, yeah, this isn't Zodiac, this is
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: you know, this is some of the local guys.
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: So you know, again, like the lore.
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: In order to make it work, he has to keep
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: it in the movie as something that's in the letter,
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: but not avoid completely that there's a whole side investigation
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: going on into the real killers here, and he's certainly
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: aware of it because he uses the guy's name, you know,
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: and I quote that in the book.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's very pick and choosy of what you want
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: to include into the narrative there as far as like
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the Zodiac story goes, which is it's always really interesting
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: to see like what type of stuff they leave out there.
• 21:29
  Speaker 4: And yeah, I mean, and he did.
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: You know, he did a great job in replicating the
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: sort of the crime scenes. He's a fantastic filmmaker. He
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: told a great story. I love I love the film.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: It's just you know, you do have to pick and choose,
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: you know, it would I mean, there's you know, there's
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: twelve utu of pages of FBI reports, there's hundreds of
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: pages of police files. There's you know, there's when he
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: made the movie, there's probably forty years of people talking
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: on talk shows about the case.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: So he does have to pick and choose.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: You do leave out the one that you think might
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: not be Zodiac, you know, like you do leave that
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: one out of the case. But you know, they've all
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: said it they've come out and said it, like these
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: these original detectives they were on, like the these tabloid
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: shows in the nineties, like the Phil Donahue Show and
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: the Heraldo Rivera and you know, unsolved mysteries, and they're like, yeah,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: it's not so yeah, you know some other guys did it.
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: And you know, nobody wants to listen. It's I guess
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: we hear what we want to hear. But they tried
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: to go public with it. It's just never succeeded. The
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: narrative sort of superseded.
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: The truth, and that is that one's only attached. Is
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: that because the letter that just said I killed those
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: kids last year.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: Yes, And then he gave some very specific information that's
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: like straight out of the police reports about how the
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: kids were laying. He uses cardinal directions like a cop would,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: and he says what type of ammunition, how many shots
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: were fired, which is a weird thing for a killer
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: to say about how many shots were fired. If you
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: collected the bullets, you would know, you know, if you
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: were looking at a report, they collect all the bullets
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: and there's just many rounds fired. Yeah, So he gave
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: specific information that was in the police report, but not
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: necessarily visceral information that a killer would know.
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: When he talks about the second murder.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: The murder of Darlene Ferrin where he shot Mike Michau
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: and Darlene Ferron, that's the one from the film with
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: the Hurdy Gurdy man, where like a car pulls up
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: in the lover's lane and just starts blitzing the people
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: in the car. He gives much more visceral information like
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: he was really there, about how Michael jumped into the backseat,
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: which he did, and how he even gets something wrong
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: in the Zodiac letter. He said that he shot the
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: boy in the knee, and he didn't shoot him. It
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: wasn't quite the knee, so it's not from the report.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: It's more that the guy doing it is likely the
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: one who wrote the letter because his impression was that
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: he shot the person in the knee and then he
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: jumped into the backseat. But that's actually factually incorrect, but
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: viscerally and you know, I buy it.
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: I buy that this person really did that murder.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: But the other one just the facts, you know, it's
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: right out of report, like he's copying it, you know.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So you do you think Tosky had anything to
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: do with the early letter writing then, like before he
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: was involved the Paul Stein staff or do you.
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: Think now, I don't.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: I think he was, if anything, an opportunist and he certainly,
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: if he certainly made the most of Zodiac, he maximized
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac case for publicity for himself. He also I
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: discovered and I read some of it in a book
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: called Motor Spirit from Jared Kobek, which is a fantastic book.
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: And then I did some research of my own. I
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: found some more instances of Dave Toski writing letters. There's
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: a columnist, Guy Wright, who worked for the Chronicle, Sefracco
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: Chronicle and the Surfrancisco Examiner.
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: They were owned by the same company.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: And throughout the seventies there's these very strange columns from
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Guy Wright about Tosky hero stories, and there's a bunch
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: of them all throughout the seventies, and one of them
• 24:42
  Speaker 3: is like, randomly, Toski, the city's top homicide detective, randomly
• 24:46
  Speaker 3: goes to a hotel room, knocks on a door and
• 24:48
  Speaker 3: tells a seventeen year old girl that you know she
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: her sister is arrested in some other state because they
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: killed the Iranian general's son, right, and that's weird, Like,
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: why would a San Francisco detective knock on a hotel
• 25:01
  Speaker 3: door to tell somebody about an Alreadian general's son. And
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: there's never been in the history of the United States
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: an Iranian general son murdered, So that's weird on its face.
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: And then a week later, the girl writes a letter
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: to the paper on Christmas Eve thanking Tosky for helping her,
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: which is really weird.
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: And then a week.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: After that, three to five San Franciscans who are not
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: in the city directory, which is again odd, write letters
• 25:26
  Speaker 3: praising Dave Toski for being the city super cop. And
• 25:30
  Speaker 3: in a city fullest psychiatrist and liberals, at least we
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: have Dave Tosky out there, and what a great guy, Dave.
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: And so this happens like this is just one absurd
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: example of Dave Toski fan fiction about himself.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: He does this Throughout the seventies.
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: There was a columnist named Amiston Mopin who wrote a
• 25:48
  Speaker 3: column called Tales in the City. He included Dave Toski
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: in a column. He then got a bunch of letters
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: from college women and young women talking about how how
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: we love Inspector Tosky put him.
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: In your column more.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: And this writer Mopin, he saw the latest Zodiac letter
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: in seventy eight and said, wait a minute, I know
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: who wrote this. And he went and got his letters,
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: his fan letters, and he said, Toski wrote these fan letters.
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: I think Toski wrote the latest Zodiac letter. He went
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: to the San Francisco Police's head of intelligence, a guy
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: named John O'sha, and O'Shea said, yeah, that sounds like Tosky.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: He's useless as a cop, but he's really good at
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: getting himself in the paper. And that's what led to
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: the whole investigation of Tosky's letter writing. Is that.
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: So he admitted to the.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Letters to Mopin, pretending to be young women talking about
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: how great he was. He said it was fun for
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: his family, which that's what he said. And so the
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: dude spends the seventies just hyping. He's his own hype man.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: He's like his own press agent. He's just using the newspaper.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: He's planting stories then writing letters into the newspaper, praising
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: himself by name.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: And it's always by name.
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: So if you see a Zodiac letter, it's like says
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: anything about Toski.
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: Or how great the cops are.
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, like he's in the letter he says that city
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: cop Tosky is good, but I'm better. It's like, why
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: would the zodiacs say that? You know, like it it's
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: more Tosky fan fiction absurdity. And that's the movie I
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: want to see. I want to see a movie like
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: I don't know who would be good in it, Like
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: a comedic actor playing Tosky, writing all of these fake
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: letters about himself and sort of being responsible for this
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: big unsolved case. But instead of devoting all of your
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: efforts to solving this case and getting justice for the
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: victims and their families, you're using it to promote yourself.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: So you know, you become dirty Harry, and you become
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: you know, Mark Ruffalo plays you in a movie, and
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: you become friends with the mayor and you you know,
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: that's that's a dark movie.
• 27:44
  Speaker 4: That's a darker movie than Fincher's movie.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, I mean maybe Liam Neesim after the
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: recent Naked Gun movie, maybe he could pull it off
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: or something.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: Because he could be brooding in it too, you know.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Like he could like play this serious part and then
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: also like the Giofy guy just like writing letters about himself.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: It's so out of you know, and this is like
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: I had to write a book because I'm thinking, there's
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: like I've read so many Zodiac books, Like I'm not
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: a completist. I don't think I've read them all, but
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: I've heard as many as I can get my hands on,
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: and nobody talks about this. It's you know, nobody talks
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: about this at all. It's like finding out that Batman
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: was faking you know, notes from the Riddler, you know.
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: And you're just like, oh, this is this is and
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: it ruins the whole story.
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: So I understand why other people don't include it in
• 28:27
  Speaker 3: the work or loss over it.
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he he like created burner accounts before social media.
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: I mean, imagine he'd be a menace right now, this
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: guy would do.
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: Imagine what this guy be doing now, you.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Know, twenty different David Tosky accounts where he's just commenting
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: on his own posts like kick his as.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: His own, you know, and that's you know, that's that's
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: something you see in the in the Zodiac online community,
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: a lot of people created burner accounts congratulating themselves.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: I've heard of it.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's one guy that comes to mind, and I
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: think you were briefly referencing him earlier about the connecting
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the black Dollie. I don't know if you want to,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: you know, say his name, but I was having a
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: good laugh. I saw a video of his other day
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: or it was like a takedown video where this guy
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: was pointing out all of the things wrong with his
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: idea about the black Dahlia zodiac connection, and.
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: Like, it's just it's Alex Baber, but it's this guy.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: He like goes on and he is immediately like, yeah,
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: I have a one hundred and sixty IQ and I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: read books backwards and all this shit, and I was like, Okay,
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: how would anyone take this series?
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: I mean, I don't And he just got like a
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: four page spread in a UK paper about this this
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: ridiculous connection, you know, and season two is coming out.
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: But yeah, the videos, the takedown videos are and the
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: guy who did the takedown videos, I don't know him personally,
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: but I know his work and he's actually one of
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: the people who helped solve one of the zodiacs after
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: fifty years twenty he's very legitimate. I don't know him personally.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: I've interacted him with him, with him on message boards.
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know him. He's his work is solid, you know,
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: and I think it really bothered him that this guy was,
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: you know, so fraudulent about his cryptography and you know,
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: I and but this guy has a million Burner accounts.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: So like if the story shows up on reading, there's
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: a whole bunch of enthusiastic people who never post on
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: the subreddit talking about Alex Baber.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: Really, you know, it's it's it's very.
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: Tosky ass, you know it's.
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: And there's you know, and there's other lesser lesser note
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: Zodiaca experts who also have Burner accounts that posting the
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: exact same weird style as them, that are there backing
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: up their claims to certain things. And those people aren't
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: even fraudulent people. Those are those are pretty good researchers.
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: But they also can't resist having the burner account.
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: I've seen it a lot. Like I'm not I'm not
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: a genius.
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: I don't have a one to sixty IQ, but I
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: can tell when somebody has a distinctive writing style at
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: the another account is just you know, writing in the
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: exact same style as that person. So it's, you know,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: it's kind of a goofy thing. I don't have any accounts.
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: I might be more successful and I probably sell more
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: books if I did have Burner accounts.
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: That were backing my claims up.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know, you know, maybe Hulu would would stick
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: me on a podcast. I don't know what what would
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: happen if I had Burner accounts, But maybe maybe I should,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: I should look into it.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, maybe, I mean, I don't know.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking about trying to get Alex baber on here
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: and talking to him, but showing up with have you
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: ever seen the movie This Island Earth's No.
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: No, I haven't.
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: It's like a sci fi movie. The guys have giant brains.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: They're like aliens with giant brains. I thought about making
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: a giant brain and showing up and just claiming to
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: have a three hundred IQ and just.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: Well, his his suspect has changed too, I think, you know,
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: like like almost you know, eighteen years ago or something
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: like that, he was going around saying that Zodiac was
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: someone else and that this person had called his house. Yeah,
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: and was like you got me, you know, like and
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: you know, I mean, you get a lot of these
• 31:50
  Speaker 3: types in this in this community, so like, I want
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: to be a truth teller because this is like I
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: feel like it's a it's a circus of Charlatan's and
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: that's a lot of true crime. That's not all true crime,
• 32:02
  Speaker 3: but that's a lot of true crime, and I want
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: to be a counterbalance to that. So, you know, my
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: story is not as exciting on the surface, but I
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: think it. You know, a lot of people said that
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: they read the book in in you know, in a
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: very short amount of time because they were just like,
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: you know, I can't believe that I didn't know this,
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: and I can't believe, you know, I want to know
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: what comes next. I think it's a it's a compelling story,
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: but it's not a blockbuster film story. It's it's more
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: of a let's get into the details and you know,
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: show what what's actually documented in real life versus zodiac lore,
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: which you know, which is a great sell and you know, yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: I would read my book, but you know, but the
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Gray Smith book is very compelling. I read it when
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: I was a teenager and it's it's it's fantastic. He
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: did a great job with it.
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: I would want both like I like the true crime
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: side of it that gets a little off the rails,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: but I always want the facts in there as well.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Like I wanted this as a counterpiece when I first
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: got into The Zodiac because I just knew, like, this
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: can't be the cut and dry of it, This can't
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: be like the boring, like real real life stuff of it,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: because it's just too fantastic. And I think my first
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: like introduction into that was the Netflix Making a Murderer.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: I think that was the first time.
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, the Steven Avery that one.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that was the first time I realized
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: because I got sucked into that and I was like,
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: they need to get this fucking guy out of jail.
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: And then like one Google search after I got to
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: watch it was like now he did it, and you're
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: just like I.
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: Was like, I was like, I was like, Oh, this
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: kid just wants to go to wrestling, you know, like
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: they offered up like wrestling tickets. I'm like, like I
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: felt bad for the kid, and then yeah, like and
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: that's that's. You know, a lot of a lot of
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: true crime documentaries leave out large chunks of information on purpose,
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: you know, and then you have to sort of deep
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: dive into you know, there was Yeah, I was just
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: watching one about a Netflix documentary about a girl who
• 33:54
  Speaker 3: had crashed her car into a house and killed her
• 33:57
  Speaker 3: boyfriend and a passenger, and.
• 33:59
  Speaker 4: It was like, you know, it was sort of up in.
• 34:00
  Speaker 3: The air whether she did it or didn't do it,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: and she you know, But then I did some reading
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: on it, and it's like, no, no, she did it.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: It's like everybody knows. You know, there's a lot of
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: stuff like that going around.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: And I think, you know, with with this, it's Tosky,
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Like people will argue all day that Tosky was exonerated
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: by the police department, but the police department doesn't have
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: a great history of investigating their own officers.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
• 34:25
  Speaker 3: And then the chief of the department then tells the FBI,
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: and the FBI takes the Toski associated letter out of
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac profile like they know it's a fraud. They
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: know me, like, this is this is real information in
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: the real FBI file, And you know, there's some there's
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: some really good information in there, but it's I understand that,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: like it's it's a real boring read. So I tried
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: to distill some of that and stick it into my
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: you know, in my book in a narrative way, and
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: I tried to be a little funny about it because
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: this is a you know, this is serious stuff, and
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: this is kind of dark stuff, but you know, it's
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: there's an absurdity to the whole thing of people sort
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: of using this case as a launching pad for their celebrity.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely.
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: I think it's one of those where it can get
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: really twisted really quick because it was so long ago
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: and there's this really concrete foundation that's been made for
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: it where it's like, yeah, you can take this and
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: spin it any way you want, really, I mean, and.
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: There's it's just there's two survivors still alive that were
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: you know, one was stabbed by Zodiac and was Zodiac.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: One was stabbed and one was shot by Zodiac. Another
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: like pertinent thing in the woman who has murdered Darlene Ferrin,
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: she had a stalker, George Waters. I talk about him
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: a lot in the book. He broke into her house,
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: he threatened to rape her. He supposedly bragged about killing
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: her at a strip club. He has a really half
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: assed alibi for where he was on the fourth of
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: July this guy's out partying every nine of a week
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: at strip clubs, at bars, showing up at her job
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: on the fourth of July, he claims to be a
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: sleep in bed by eleven pm with his wife, you know.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: And his wife is the only person that backed this up.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: And the wife didn't even know that this was a
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: murder case. She thought this was about a previous restraining
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: order he had for beating up his ex wife. So
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: she was like, you know, she doesn't even know what
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: she's telling the cops. She's just backing him up. So
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: he's a real, you know, live wire of a suspect.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: There's also a cop that she was dating who two
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: years later his girlfriend shot herself with his three point
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: fifty seven in a room feet away from her kids.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: And the original investigator of the No Country for All
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: Men guy declares that the.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: Suicide and lets his cop get off on it.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: And there's a third cop who gets fired for a
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: sexual encounter with a fifteen year old. He beats up
• 36:36
  Speaker 3: a woman and two years later beats up a woman
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: and shoots a man. And all three of these guys
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: had a relationship with this woman who was killed, and
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: none of them were her husband, she's married with a kid,
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: and she's having three affairs, if not more, at the time.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: So there are real suspects in this case. It's not
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: the it's not the boogeyman. It's you know, like chances
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: are in real life, if women are killed by someone
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: they know, likely a former or current intimate partner. You know,
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: it's very very rare for a woman to be murdered
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: by a stranger. Also, if a woman has a stalker,
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: it's an over eighty percent chance that stalker, who's always
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: a man, will physically harm her. So, you know, if
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: there's a stalker involved in any of this, that's the
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: first person you have to look at. And did they
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: know that in nineteen sixty nine, Probably not, by the
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: way that they sort of go on strike and then
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: stop looking at this stalker who's a fantastic suspect.
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, after Darlene was murdered, I mean that's when the
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: first letter was written.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, it was. It was maybe almost a month later.
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: It was she was murdered on July fourth, and the
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: first letters the three parts cipher, so one letter to
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: three newspapers with you know, three parts of the cryptogram
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: were sent on July thirty first.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: So do you think her murderer was the one that
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: wrote the first Zodiac letter?
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: I I do.
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: I do, I absolutely do. I think, I absolutely do.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: I think her murderer understood a lot about police investigations.
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: I think he was forensically aware. I think he sent
• 38:04
  Speaker 3: the letters to sort of thwart any possible investigation. I
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: think he also knew that the guys who didn't the
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: Lake her Road murder were locked up already.
• 38:14
  Speaker 4: They were already in jail for a different murder.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: I think it's somebody who's definitely, somehow adjacent to the
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: police world. Darlene Stalker was the events bartender at the
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: Elks Lodge where all these cops hung out. He was
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: the bartender of basically all of these guys. So you know,
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: could that information have been you know, loose lips after
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: a couple of years at the bar. Yeah.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: But also, and speaking of forensically aware, the cops she
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: was dating who the woman shot herself two years later
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: at his place. He was the evidence officer for Solano County.
• 38:47
  Speaker 3: So he's the fingerprint guy, he is the crime scene guy.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: He's a photographer. He has photos of Darlene and other
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: Zodiac victims in his house, and he would know about forensics,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: he would know about police investigations. So you know, and
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: that's that's just right off the bat. That's not even
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: talking about her scary ex husband. You know that they
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: don't even talk to him until nineteen seventy. So this,
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: this murder happens. This is how concerned they were about
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: this murder. It happens on July fourth of sixty nine.
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: And I think anyone who's ever expressed any interest in
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: true crime, you look at the husband, you look at
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: the boyfriend, you look at the X. Takes them seven
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: months to look at the X man. Yeah, you know,
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: that's how hard to work in this case.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that sounds pretty rough there. If they're not
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: even looking at the closest people involved, especially I mean
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: not saying that it happens every time, but the fact
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: that she's having multiple affairs and the husband is not
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: even being talked to, it's kind of like, well, that's well.
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: Her husband was at work, the current husband was at work.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: But the ex husband, who was like sort of like
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: a violent X and he was like a military guy
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: and he was he was in the brig and he
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: was in a mental hospital and like he's really he
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: takes a lot of Hodi X boxes and they don't
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: talk to that guy for seven Okay they should have. Yeah,
• 40:03
  Speaker 3: the husband was he was a restaurant cook and he
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: was cooking Fourth of July. He worked late that night,
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: so he was actually he has an out. He has
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: a pretty air tight alibi. He was he was at
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: work and he was coming home. He came home and
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: drove the babysitters home, you know, and she was always late,
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: so he figured, all right, so she's just late for
• 40:21
  Speaker 3: the party they were supposed to have.
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and so he.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: Didn't find that. The cops came to the house and
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: they were like, oh, it's a bad you know. So
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: he and he was distraught. So yeah, the husband, the
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: husband checks out, but you know, the X and the
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: boyfriends a couple of messes going on there.
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah that's right, Yeah, that was my bad. I remember
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: that now, I got those two mixed up. I was
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: thinking husband was the ex husband Yeah.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: Well the one yeah, he was the one time husband.
• 40:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah yeah recent.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: X Yeah right right, I got you there. Okay.
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: So then with the Lake Berry Sa stabbing that was
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: after the four h eight cipher was solved. That's Cecilia
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Shepherd and Brian Hartnell. Yeah, with that one. So I
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: guess with all these being kind of tied with just
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: the letters and stuff like that, what do you think
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: happened there? Because I feel like that's the most infamous
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: one where you get he said, you get the guy
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: with the executioner hood. He you know, comes up in
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: the middle of the day at this campsite or picnic
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: side or whatever.
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, picnic site by a lake. It's a man made
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: lake and it's a it's a picnic site and they're
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: you know, they're just like sitting on a blanket talking
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: and uh. And Cecilia sees him coming from the distance
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: and he's not wearing his mask at first, and you know,
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: Brian's just like, oh, he's probably just you know, looking
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: for a place to pee, and she's like, you know.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: Then he eventually puts a mask on, and he's got
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: a gun, and he comes over with the gun and
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: you know, starts having dialogue with the kid. He's telling
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: them that he escaped from prison in Colorado or Montana
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: and he just needs Brian's car to get to Mexico
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: and he wants to escape. You know, Brian throws the
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: car keys. He's you know, he's he's totally compliant. He's
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: actually overly compliant. He's like, I'm a I'm a student,
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: and you know, I'll write you a check because I
• 42:00
  Speaker 3: don't have any cash to give you, but like, you know,
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: will you take a check? And he's like asking the
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: guy a lot of questions, like he's a sociologist.
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: And this goes on for like I think Brian ask
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: him that. It goes on for like fifteen minutes.
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: You know, he's in the process of, you know, talking
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: with this killer, and he asks if if the gun
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: is loaded, because he's read stories and readers digest that
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: the gun isn't loaded sometimes, and you know, the guy
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: shows him it's a loaded gun, and then they you know,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: he has him tied up and stabs them both pretty brutally.
• 42:27
  Speaker 4: Brian plays dead.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: He's smart, he plays dead, and guy leaves thinking both
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: kids are dead, and he goes and writes on Brian's car.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: So instead of writing a letter to the newspaper, he
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: draws the Zodiac symbol on the door of Brian's car,
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: writes the dates of the first two Zodiac attacks, and
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: then puts this six thirty at the time when it happened,
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: and then drives like twenty seven miles and calls the
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: calls the nap Up police and says, you know, I
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: committed a double murder and you know, and and gave
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: location as to where it was.
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's.
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: Uh, it's similar to the other Zodiac crimes, but it's
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: also similar to and you have to remember, this is
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: the time of the Tate Lebianca murders, the Manson murders,
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: and we're just in the news at this time, and
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: that involves a lot of scrawling on the wall, you know,
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: writing political piggy's, you know, pig pigs, this and that.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: So now there's an evolution where the Zodiac is now
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: wearing a spooky hood, like an executioner's hood.
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: And he's now writing on car doors.
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: There's definitely, you know, some some overlap with the Manson,
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: with the Tate Lebianca murders happening. It seems to me
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: that this is a copycat because he gets a lot
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: of things wrong that the Zodiac did. You know, as
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: far as we know that, you know, we know for
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: certain at the Blue Rock Springs thing that the guy
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: wasn't wearing a costume, you know, and this is a
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: very heavy man. They did compaction tests based on his bootprint,
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: and the police determined that this was a two hundred
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: and forty pounds man. So in nineteen sixty nine, a
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: two hundred and forty pounds man is absolutely massive. You know,
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: George Foreman is considered a gigantic heavyweight boxer, and he's
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: about two twenty seven. Muhammad Ali's like to eighteen. An
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: NFL lineman is about two fifty. This guy's two forty,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: So it's he's he's a huge guy. Back then, the
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: average man was five foot eight and one hundred and
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: sixty six pounds, so you know, he's he's almost ninety
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: pounds heavier than the average man eighty pounds any average man.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: So that sort of rules out a lot of people
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: who earlier in the case, you know, could have been
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: in Zodiac. And then you know, I was speaking with
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: one of Fincher's researchers, who was an excellent guy, and
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: he was doing a lot of research on the movie.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: And the police had also determined there was a car
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: with a small like wheelbase at the time, with mismatched
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: front tires, and the police went around asking at gas stations,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: have you seen any customers who had like a big
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: guy with a little car with mismatched tires, and one
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: of the gas station owners, well, not customers, but my
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: former employee is a really big guy with you know,
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: a beat up VW beatle.
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: His name is Arthur and that's.
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: The suspect from the movie from the Gray Smith book,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: and that's how they first get onto him.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: And Vallejo sends.
• 45:15
  Speaker 3: A detective to interview Arthur Lee Allen and he takes
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: one look at him and says, this is this is
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: an overweight, bald, middle aged man. This can't be the
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: guy because the guy this is a Vallejo detective. So
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: he's looking for a twenty five to thirty year old, curly,
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: blonde haired, husky guy. And he sees this middle aged,
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: overweight man and says, I can't be him. And he
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: doesn't even follow up on the you know, if he's
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: wearing wing walker boots, if he has you know, he
• 45:40
  Speaker 3: treats him as a non suspect and that could have
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: been you know, like we're still getting documentaries about Arthur
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: Lee Allen. The latest Netflix one is about him this
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: could have been either he could have been cleared in
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: sixty nine or he could have been a hell of
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: a suspect for the Lake Herman Road murder. I think
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: he's I think he's a very good suspect for that
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: murder alone, but not for the Zodiac cereal, I think, yeah,
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: Lee Allen and Lake Barriessa. You know, they talked to
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: him a couple of days after after it, and you know,
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: Sergeant Lynch, the guy who did it, just blew it.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: He didn't he wasn't inquisitive at all. He and it
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: took two years later when they you know, when the
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: Zodiac Task Force in seventy one, they interview Alan again
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: and he's had two years now, you know, he has
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: a two year if he has anything to do with this,
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: he's had a two year lead. Yeah, it's it's it's unfortunate.
• 46:27
  Speaker 3: And that's the great scene in the movie where he's
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: wearing the Zodiac watch and you know that that's all real.
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: I you know, he really did volunteer information that you know,
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: the knives, the bloody knives in my car is because
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: I ate a chicken for dinner and killed it. And
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: you know it would have been nice if the first
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: detective did his job and they could have been sort
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: of vetting this guy properly in sixty nine rather than
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: seventy one. When you know, if they're serving a search
• 46:51
  Speaker 3: warrant in seventy one seventy two, he's had time to
• 46:53
  Speaker 3: dispose of you know, if he thinks the cops are
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: on for him, he's had time now. So you know,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: so that's a that's a tough one. That's a tough
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: break in the in the case, it's more than just
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: one thing, because this guy certainly isn't the guy the
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: you know, the twenty five year olds with curly blondish hair,
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: so it's you know, or the forty five year old
• 47:10
  Speaker 3: guy with a crew cut, you know, like he's he's
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: none of those guys. He's a big six foot two
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: hundred and fifty pound bold men and you know, not
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: to be confused about any of.
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: The other eyewitness accounts. So you know, it's we're.
• 47:23
  Speaker 3: Looking at different people and for and a lot of
• 47:25
  Speaker 3: people in the Zodiac sort of online community will say
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: that all the descriptions match, and they'll argue that, and like,
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: I have to push back on that every time because
• 47:35
  Speaker 3: the descriptions do not match. There's there's actually no match
• 47:38
  Speaker 3: at all other than it's each of them had a
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: varying degree of heavy set, white male.
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that, Yeah, that was something I thought was
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: really interesting with that, because when I started getting into
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: your book, I went back and I listened to the
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: first like Zodiac thing I listened to probably like three
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: or four years ago, and that was something that stood
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: out right away, was that when they're going through these
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: murders and they're you know, they're talking about eyewitnesses, it's
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: always a different description and they just kind of go
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: right by it where they're just like, yeah, they said
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: this guy looked like this, and then anyway, and it's
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: just kind of like.
• 48:10
  Speaker 3: It's a huge deal in real life. It's a huge
• 48:12
  Speaker 3: deal to the real cops. It's a huge deal to
• 48:15
  Speaker 3: you know, the true crime industry. It's an inconvenience. Yeah,
• 48:18
  Speaker 3: and you know that's h and that's one of the problems.
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: And you know, like other problems are that the letters
• 48:23
  Speaker 3: are authenticated by one person and that person was proven
• 48:26
  Speaker 3: to be wrong with the with the Tosky hoax letter.
• 48:29
  Speaker 3: He was saying in Zodiac, it's one hundred percent Zodiac,
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: and they brought in three outside experts, which you know,
• 48:34
  Speaker 3: I police departmers don't love to do bring in outside experts.
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: They brought in three outside experts who were like, no,
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: this is a fake. He was wrong on that. He
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: said the Riverside writing for the Sherry Joe Bates case,
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: which is not a non canonical Zodiac case, he said
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: that was the same author as Zodiac. Riverside Police and
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: the FBI are like, this is not Zodiac. The Riverside
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: Police said it seven times publicly, the FBI said it
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: like three times publicly. But you know, he's no one
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: calls this out like this bs hand running analysis. Again,
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: that's another inconvenient thing in this case. That, like, the
• 49:04
  Speaker 3: thing that links the whole case together is one man's opinion.
• 49:07
  Speaker 3: He was untrained. His dad created the job for himself
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: and then gave it to his son. His son did
• 49:13
  Speaker 3: no professional extending education. He didn't keep up with the
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: science of hand running analysis as much of a science
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: as he hand running analysis is considered.
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: And you know, and that's the guy who ties.
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: This all together. This isn't tied together with DNA, this
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: isn't tied together with the fingerprint. This is goofy letter
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: sent in the newspaper and one hand running expert saying that,
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: oh yeah, the same guy wrote these and that's it,
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: and that's that's what ties this entire thing together.
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: That's so wild, especially the more the letters start.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Coming in, the more unhinged they get, and just the
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: more like almost silly they start to get. And every
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: time he's up in his kill count by ten people,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: and it's like, okay, how could you.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: He's up to thirty seven. Yeah, he's doing reviews of movies.
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: He's like The Exorcist was my favorite satirical comedy of
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: the year, and like this has nothing to do with
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: the original letters that were like I am the killer
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: of this person.
• 50:03
  Speaker 4: I did this, and this is just to prove it.
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: I will state some information, you know, like it was
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: very just the facts in the beginning.
• 50:09
  Speaker 4: And then he made some threats. He threatened to go
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: on a kill rampage.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: He threatened to blow up school buses, pickoff kids of
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: school buses, he threatened to set of bombs. He did
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: those in the original letters, but then later it's just
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: like tusk, he's a good cup, but I'm better, you know,
• 50:23
  Speaker 3: and it's it's everybody should wear a zodiac button. Yeah,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: you know, he wanted them to wear the symbol on
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: it as a button. And he writes about that three
• 50:29
  Speaker 3: or four times to the newspaper and you're like, this
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: isn't the same. If you read two different authors, you
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: can tell the author's voice and the lack of skepticism
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: about the Zodiac letters is it's absolutely shocking.
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: That's unreal.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the first three or four letters are really spooky,
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: like in especially like with the ciphers and everything too.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: Almost gives the illusion.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: And I don't know anything about ciphers, it does give
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: the idea that like you're dealing with like a mastermind here,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: so I could see where like people kind of got
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: swept away with like there's these like decoded messages that
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: we have to you know, figure out like who this
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: guy is and who he's going to kill next and
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: all this stuff.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: It is very like comic book.
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: Ish, it is.
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: It's also a great way to get people to buy
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: the paper because he's like, my name is in the cipher.
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: So of course they they printed it. You know, like
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: the three newspapers they had a decision to make whether
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: the printice or not, you know, it's almost interactive where
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: people at home. It was two two school teachers from Salinas, California,
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: that solved the that solved the first cipher, the three
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: part cipher, and it does be it does seem a
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: little gimmicky and interactive in the beginning, but it is scary.
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: And I know nothing about Cipher's either.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: When I when I first heard about this, I was like,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: oh man, this kind of must have some really crazy
• 51:39
  Speaker 3: master plan that's like out there in plain sight. And
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: the letters are just like, you know, I will have slaves,
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: I will collect slaves in paradise. Yeah, you know, and
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: you're just like, what a goof, you know, and killing
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: someone is even better than getting your rocks off with
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: a girl, And you're like, h come on, you know,
• 51:53
  Speaker 3: and that's that's so.
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: He probably just bought an idiot's guide for Cipher's or something.
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: Was just like hell yeah, but it's like, yeahs the
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: only own message.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: The yeah, the message.
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, you would have to believe he
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: believed this, you know, And uh, I mean people do
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: believe that, and that, you know, people believe anything. People
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: believe that, you know. The mal Santa is Santa, the
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: real Santa's helper. You know, people believe that, but you
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: know they're usually children and uh, you know adults, you
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: kind of know a certain point that something funny is
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: going on, but you know that's that's yeah, that's where
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: we are with this. It's a it's like a goofy batman.
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: It's a goofy riddler and uh yeah, there's there's no
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: good messages and the and the one you know, the
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: one they deciphered in twenty twenty, it's it's more of
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: the same. It's more like that wasn't me that called
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: on TV? And don't try to prevent me from getting
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: slaves in Paradise And you're like, it's just back with
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: this shit again.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, here we go.
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I mean it is like it's a big
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: mess really when you can do it.
• 52:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it is. It's it's and if you want to
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: read about a big mess, man, I really I go
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: into it in this book. It's really just like I
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: lay out the whole mess. I don't try to sugarcoat
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: anything in this in this case, like it's a this disaster,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: it's still a disaster because you know, these problems haven't
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: been rectified and you know, here we are, you know,
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: fifty six, fifty seven years later, these these have not
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: been These are not problems that have been rectified. No
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: police department has made an announcedment like all right, listen to
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: these first two murders. They weren't really Zodiac and I'm sorry,
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: you know, to the family members, and you know, San
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: Francisco isn't like all right, Look, our guy that we
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: put in charge of this, you know, he used this
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: as a platform to become famous. And I'm sorry we
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: didn't solve the murder of Paul Stein because our detective
• 53:29
  Speaker 3: was too busy writing letters praising himself for the paper.
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: You know. So they haven't done that, and I don't
• 53:34
  Speaker 4: think they will.
• 53:35
  Speaker 3: And so you know, there's no there's no closure at all,
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: like they're not only is there no justice, but like
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: these these departments know that some garbage happened in this
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: case that they haven't come out and said, look, you know,
• 53:47
  Speaker 3: full disclosure.
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: This was nonsense, you know, and it would be nice
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: that they did.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And we talked about the Paul Stein thing a
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: little bit, the Paul Stein murder, and that pretty well
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: sounds like a cab robbery, Like a typical cab robbery.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: But then you have the letter that mails in as
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: the piece of his bloody sure. Yeah, and that kind
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: of like throws a ranch into all that because it's like, well,
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: they're just going to be looking at the Zodiac for
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: his murder.
• 54:14
  Speaker 3: And there's a serial cab robber operating in that neighborhood.
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: He moves to he moves to San Francisco from Oregon,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: like September twenty ninth. On October first, two cab drivers
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: are robbed and put in the trunk of their cars.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: On October eleventh, Paul Stein is robbed. Also different from
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: the Zodiac victims and kills. Other cab attacks happen in
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: January of nineteen seventy, also in Persidio Heights, another cab
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: driver named Charles Jarman is robbed and shot in the head.
• 54:42
  Speaker 3: Tosky gets the case. Toski gets a fingerprint right away.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: Toski arrests the guy who did it in January of
• 54:48
  Speaker 3: nineteen seventy and the serial gunpoint cab robber that resulted
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: in two murders. This free stops as soon as this
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: guy is arrested. There's no more of these Presidial Heights
• 54:58
  Speaker 3: cab killings. Or cat gunpoint cab robberies. As soon as
• 55:01
  Speaker 3: Tosky arrests this guy, and it was a remarkable bit
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: of police work. Tosky did it. He did it all
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: in one day too. He found the print in the
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: guy's pocket on a letter, took it to the Hall
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: of Justice, got them to manually match it to a
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: drug arrest.
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: They brought the guy in for questioning.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: Tosky questioned them, got a confession, and then when he
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: went to trial, the guy pled guilty. So you know,
• 55:23
  Speaker 3: it was a remarkable bit of police work by Dave Tosky.
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: That same energy was not there for Paul Stein. He
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: never interviewed the witnesses. He didn't send a real sketch
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: artist to get a sketch.
• 55:33
  Speaker 4: He said the.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Cop name Juan Morale, who could draw a little bit,
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: but he wasn't a trained sketch artist. There's a lot
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: of things that Tosky could have done with the paul
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: Stein case that he didn't do. But he did a
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: remarkable job with the Jarman case, and so it was
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: capable of it. Like it shows me that Tosky, when
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: properly motivated, was a very good detective.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that is one thing that I guess
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: kind of does get lost when you get into him
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: writing the letters about himself and stuff like that. He
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: still is a good detective and probably a good reason why.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: You know, if Dirty Harry and Bullet were references to him, that's,
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: you know, that's a pretty big yu.
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: He was major.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: He was a homicide guy for a long time. And
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: there's over one hundred homicide cases that led the convictions
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: based on Toski's investigation or testimony. So that's important, and
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: that's really important to keep in mind because if the
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: department did did come out and say, Dave Toski wrote
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: a couple of these Zodiac letters, that's him faking evidence.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: So all of those people one hundred murder cases have
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: been in prison or you know, they could start appealing,
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: They could start suing the city because now this guy
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: is a known evidence inventor or you know, he's dirty.
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: You know, so then the guy who put them away
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: is dirty. The actual serial cab killer could have appealed
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: the case and saying that you know, this guy's you know,
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: along with ninety nine other people. They could have sued
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: the city for millions of dollars, you know, for he
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: would have been a pariah. And you know, the police
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: commissioner's number one job is to make the mayor look good.
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: It's not to be a good compidence to not have
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: the city sued for millions and you know, potentially let
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: dozens or multiple dozens of people out of prison based
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: on an evidence faker in your department.
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean that's a lot of pressure. It's
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: when you think about a guy that might have like
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: an attention seeking or like a fame seeking side of
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: himself that has all this you know, pressure to do
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: right by the mayor, and one little thing like that
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: could put a stain on all of it.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: That is, it's pretty hard to imagine.
• 57:33
  Speaker 4: And you know, his his chief, also his Tosky's boss,
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: his chief when he was exonerating him for writing the
• 57:39
  Speaker 4: zodiac letters.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: In the same breath, says that Tosky is a disturbed
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: personality because of his unyielding need for attention and publicity.
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: So he the guy is supposed to be saying, Tosky's
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: all right, and he's still he's still burying your own
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: you know, he's still mad at him.
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: He's you know, he's yeah, it's not good.
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not good.
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Similarly, going back to the ciphers, the Zodiac must have
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: had or whoever is writing the Zodiac letters, you know,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: they must have had a pretty marketing wise brain, you
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: know what I mean.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: How would you not pay attention to that sort of thing?
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: Really great at branding. I don't even know if branding
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: was a turn back then, but it was. Really it
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: was really good at branding. Because the Valetjo Times Herald
• 58:20
  Speaker 3: got a bunch of letters from Dave mcgrath's's friends who
• 58:23
  Speaker 3: were talking about before saying that they were going to
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: kill the witness in his case and all this, but
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: none of those got printed in the newspaper. The Valetjo
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: Times Herald just handed those to the cops. Had Dave
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: McGrath's friends thought to put a cipher and come up
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: with a symbol, maybe those letters would have been printed
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: in the paper. It's probably as simple as that, because
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: you know, I think that's.
• 58:41
  Speaker 4: What makes it different.
• 58:42
  Speaker 3: Newspapers weren't really in the business of printing threats from
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: in letters, you know, but the cipher made it compelling.
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: The idea of printing is so outdated now that it's
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: hard to imagine messages not instantly being there too.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: That's kind of the.
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: Other thing, like when you go back and start getting
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: into this where it's like something really would have to
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: grab you to be like this is going out on
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: tomorrow's paper instead of like this looks cool.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: I'm going to put it on the internet right now, Like.
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Like it's a measured decision, right, It's a very purposeful decision.
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: There's no reposting, right. You don't get to just repost
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: it or just you know, cut and pay something. It's
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: they have to make a decision what pages the thing
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: is going to be on, how much, you know, And
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: they took these jobs very seriously. The publishers and newspapers
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: thought of themselves as the establishment, and they are the
• 59:28
  Speaker 3: people who give, you know, who inform the public. You know,
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: they at least believe that about themselves. Whether we believe
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: that about them or not, you know, that's that's besides
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: the point. But they were of the belief that they
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: were an American institution and what they were doing is
• 59:42
  Speaker 3: very serious. And what's interesting too, and the FBI was
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: willing to be the lead investigator on Zodiac, which would
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: have been able to solve this case if the newspapers
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: agreed to press charges for an extortion case because the
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: Zodiac was threatening to murder people if they didn't print
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: it in a paper. So the FBI said that this
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: qualifies as extortion, so we can take over the case
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: and you know, we'll get this guy. So the Valetjoe
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: paper said, fine, you know, we agree, we'll press We're
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: with you on this. Both San Francisco papers said no,
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: so the FBI could not investigate the case, and the
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Zodiac stopped writing to the Valejo paper after they So
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: this person understands investigations. He wants the local guys in
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: different jurisdictions investigating him. He doesn't want the FBI looking
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: at him. This letter writer, there's a knowledge of police tactics.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: The letters after the Palstine, after the Palsteim error, he
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: is commenting on which police units came, so like a
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: motorcycle units had come and canine units had come, and
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: the fire department sent the spotlight, and the Zodiac, instead
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: of running away from a crime scene, is sitting there,
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: I guess, jotting down which police units showed up and
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: why that was uneffective in catching him. So it's almost
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: like he's talking about the tactics the police used in
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: a negative way.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 4: And I don't know what civilian would lock onto that.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: You know, what average person who's not a police buff
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: or has no background in that would even make note
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: of that. You know, if you just had killed someone,
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: you you would imagine you were fleeing the scene as
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: quickly as possible, not sitting around looking at which specialized
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: units are showing up and why that's ineffective.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it does kind of point towards someone that's
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: close to at least like the police side of things,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: or some or or has some sort of background and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: that or is familiar and so something like that.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: I think, Yeah, I think there's there's it's it's a
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 3: thread through the nineteen sixty nine letters for sure, is
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: that there's a there's a law enforcement there's an understanding
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: of law enforcement things phrasing and you know, sort of
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: evaluating tactics, and it just it's just like you know,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 3: I think I say in the book, like there's like
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: an undercover and a guy has like you know, like
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: a short haircut and a mustache, and like, oh, that
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 3: dude's a cop. Like that's how I look at these
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: sixty nine letters like, oh, that dude's a cop. There's
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: too many things that and that point in that direction.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I agre it does read very cop like. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: that's well. I appreciate you writing this book. It's something
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: I've been wanting to get into, like the details like
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 1: this for a long time. So it's great that it's
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: all packaged and like one easy to read, you know,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: novel here. I guess I don't know if you call
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: it a novel or what.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: I guess, just like a nonfiction non fiction yeah, yeah, yeah,
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: I don't.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: Know what to call it. Yeah, just yeah.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: I don't want to call it true crime because you know,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: but yeah, I guess it's a history. It's a sort
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: of true crime history of the Zodiac era and the case, yeah,
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: and the reality versus you know.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 4: It's kind of a debunking of the Zodiac.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: And I like that it does touch on what was
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: going on during that time outside of this as well,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: the hippie stuff, the sixties, everything like that. I love
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: the first chapter. Everything you know about the sixties is bullshit,
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: that whole thing, yeah, I think, and it even kind
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: of goes into like how the Manson family was kind
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: of affecting that era as well.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, it's the contemporaries, so there's definitely you know,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: there's competition between San Francisco and Los Angeles there. And
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: you know, and the Manson story too, is you look
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: at some of that stuff. I mean, you know, Manson's
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: a bad dude, Manson, you know, Manson was a pimp.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: Manson was you know, very controlling and abusive to these women.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: But was Manson really trying to start a race war? Right?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: It was?
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: You know, some of these more outrageous claims are you know,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: people bought it in the Jury and people bought it
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: in Vinci Pulgosi's book. But you know, is that what
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 3: he really wanted or or is this some drug bullshit?
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: You know? Yeah, yeah, I got that the Chaos book
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: when it came out too, and that was the other Yeah,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: that whole I love that side of I guess just
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: crime in general, Like if you're getting into true crime,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like you have to find that other side
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: where it's like kind of have to read between the
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: lines a little bit and see what was really going
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: on around those times.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: That's an exciting book. Chaos is His access is unbelievable
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: the people he had access to.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I would like in this book to that
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: where it just feels very similar. It's like thank you,
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: yeah yeah, where you're kind of cutting through a lot
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: of the bullshit just getting straight to like, these are
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: the facts. Do you plan on doing any other books
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: like this that are related to true crime that are
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: really diving into the maybe some of the details that
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: were missed.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: It depends on what I find out. But I am
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: very interested in the heaven for most of my life.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: In the West Memphis three.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: Case, Yeah, yeah, and yeah, I would love that.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 3: I you know, I've been interested in that case for
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: a very long time. There's been zero justice in that case,
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: and I think there's a lot of stories that documentaries
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: were excellent, but they were advocacy documentaries, and I don't
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: think they told the full story, and I would like to.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 3: I would like to get to the bottom of that.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 3: I think it would be incredibly sad, and I think
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 3: it would be sort of really hard to do. Difficult
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 3: to do as a researcher, but difficult to deal with
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 3: because it's children that were murdered. But I think there's
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 3: something about that that really just bothers me. It stuck
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: with me for a long time, and you know, I
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: think I would like to know who the hell did that,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: you know, figure out what the hell was really going
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: on there.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: That is one that is it's very compelling, that one.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: It broke my heart when I first got into it
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: because I had only heard the thing about the three
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: guys that were you know, put in prison and then
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: let out on the yeah, you know, the stipulation or
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: whatever that it was. But when I actually yeah, the
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Alfred play. Yeah, when I actually got into it and
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: realized that it's about yeah, three little kids that got
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: like brutally murdered, it's like, oh my god, like this
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: is Yeah.
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: The reason I got into it was, you know, I
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: was I was also a teenage metal head in the nineties.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: You know, I was a int the punkin metal and hardcore,
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 3: and uh so I felt like these these three dudes
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 3: were persecuted because they trusted all black and like listened
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: to metallic or whatever. The trial shows that, you know
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: that they used that stuff against them and they were
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: sort of outsiders in their town, and you know, also
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: like you then the reality of what happened in the
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: case hits you and you're like, you know, it's it's
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: it's awful what happened to those three guys that went
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 3: to prison with the lousy trial. But what happened to
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: those kids is unbelievable, you know, And that person is
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: still out there, whoever did it is either dead or
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: still out there.
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's heartbreaking.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: And the satanic panic angle.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: Of it with them, Yeah, yeah, that is really it's
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: an interesting one for sure. Like it's one of it's
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: right up there with like the Zodiac Story or Black
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: Dollar or any of those.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: It'll just like grab you once you get into it.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: And I would like to do something because I think
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: the other books were just very much advocating for the three,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: the West Memphis Three. I would I would like to
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: sort of do it. It's not just that it's where
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 3: it's also you know, besides advocacy, it's also I want
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: to get through the unvarnished truth, whatever the truth that
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: its is, you know, get to it. Yeah.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that would be really interesting. I hopefully you do.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: That'd be great. I would love to read that one
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: as well. I'll take me about three years. I think
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I was gonna say maybe five, maybe five.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure.
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: I'm sure that can't be easy getting into all this,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: you know, like with with this Zodiac stuff, where did
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: you even begin?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 4: I started with the.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: Records that the available records, and then I started writing
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: to making Foyer requests for you know, old reports, and
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: that's difficult. A lot of them are gone. Or I
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: got some court records about Dave McGrath's for his first trial,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: like fifteen hundred pages there.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 4: I started looking up names.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: In the paper of people who were involved in similar crimes,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: called them, called, calling them, emailing them, finding them on LinkedIn,
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 3: finding them on ancestry, finding them on Facebook, talking to them.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 4: You know. So some of these people were really helpful,
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 4: some of the people.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 3: Who were like involved in the North Bay criminal underground
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: of the time. Yeah, and family members of the people
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: who were were you know, we're super helpful to make
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: I called them, I said, you know, I'm I'm a writer.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: I'm working on this thing about you know, crime in
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 3: the North Bay and it might be somehow involving Zodiac.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 4: And they're like, well, I've been waiting fifty seven.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 3: Years to tell my story about Zodiac and that happened
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: Sody times that you know, there are so many women
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: in the Bay Area who were on a date with
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 3: the men in nineteen six nine, seventy seventy one and
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: the guy claimed to be the Zodiac, you know, when
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 3: they were sort of wrapping the date up and we're
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: like all right, I'm gonna go home now, and the
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: guy's like, but I'm the Zodiac, and you know, just
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: like like I heard that story from multiple women. It's
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: i mean, that's not actual, real information that I used
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: for the book, but that's that's just you know, just
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: at the time how pervasive this this Zodiac thing was
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 3: over the culture.
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 4: Or so it's like these teenage girls are going on
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 4: a date and the guy's like.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: You better not you better put out or else because
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: I'm the Zodiac, and like yeah, yeah, motherfucker. They remember
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 3: these dudes' names too, so like yeah, so it's like,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: I know, the guy who pretended to be the Zodiac
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty nine and what he's doing now, you know.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: It's fucked up.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I'm sure that would like stick
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: with you or you're like, oh shit, this guy's claiming
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: to be a serial killer.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: It turns out to be this like you.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Know, long lasting reputable, like serial killer, and like.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: One of one of the women was was a criminal.
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: She was totally a member of the criminal underground at
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: a time, and she would never go to the cops
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: or anything. But she's like, look, man, this guy from
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: the air Force base. You know, he he got all
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: weird and said he was the Zodiac and take a
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 3: look at this, and you know they I don't think
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: they did, but but she, you know, she felt that
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: strong about it.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: It's hard to believe. But then, I mean, even on
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 2: that one.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: That live TV show, that's the famous clip where the
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: person calls in from them into the hospital and claims
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: to meet the Zodiac. It's like, if you get into
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: true crime, you learn pretty fast that people will take
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: credit for the craziest ship. And it's like, why would
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: you Why would you want to you know, if you're
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: gonna get looked into and everything else.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: It's just it's nuts to me.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll never be able to figure that out.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: I usually do like book and movie reviews and whatnot,
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: So I was I was curious, like, could you give
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: me some of your favorite movies? It doesn't have to
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: be like your top but if what are some movies.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 4: You're into, well a recent or all time.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: Let's do recent and then do all time.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 4: Okay, so recent. I really like like back Rooms. I
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 4: liked Obsession.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 3: I like Exit eight.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 4: I'm a I'm a horror watcher for sure.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: I liked Weapons Sinners, you know, Hereditary all time.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 4: I mean, I love I love Shutter Island.
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: I'm I'm sort of obsessed with Shutter Island because on
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: every subsequent watch, like the first time you watch it,
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: like it was a good.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 4: Movie, and then I watched it.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: I was like on a nineteen hour flight to Singapore
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: and I watched Shutter Island again. I was like, man
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: Scorsese really earns every every twist in the movie when
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: you watch it, knowing the twists, so that I guess,
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 3: like Memento, I like, I do like twisty, twisty type movies.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: I like some absurd movies like Steven Seagal is Out
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: for Justice. Yeah, I grew up in I grew up
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: in Brooklyn. They filmed it right near my high school
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 3: when I was in high school, and it's it's such
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: a bad movie and it's so amazing, and I think
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: like the mafia shook him down while they were making
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: that movie.
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 4: So it's just like the lore of that movie.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: I like some some documentaries like Decline of Western Civilization
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: to The Metal Years. It's about like just the the
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: La Glam scene, and that's like a happy movie for me.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 3: I just white people over and watch watch that. So yeah,
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: I like, yeah, I like a thriller's horror, you know.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: I mean I like gangster movies too. The Wrestler, Mickey Brooks,
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: The Wrestler.
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's the classic amazing.
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's so good, you know. So yeah, but it
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: changes all the time, you know. I guess I never
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: have a top ten. It's a consistent top ten. Yeah,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: I can understand that. Yeah, I feel like it kind
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: of always has to shift around for me. Yeah, it's
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: like my favorite movie will change depending on when I
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 3: watch a movie, next time I watch a movie, you know,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: so on and so forth, where I feel like it's
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: just it's always rotating. And then there's the thing where
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: you like, rewatch something and you're like, well, this was
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: one of my favorite movies, but I don't think it
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 3: holds up or you know, sometimes it's rarer.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: It's like, wow, this is better than I remember. The
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 4: early Guy Ritchie movies. I was.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: I was shocked at how how I mean, they're very
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: much of a time, and they're very much of a style.
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: But Manny, you know Snatch and Lockstock, they really hold up,
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: you know, all these years later.
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those are ones I need to go back and rewatch.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: That's something I have been doing too, and noticing a
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: lot is that, Like I've been going and watching a
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: lot of the horror movies I watched when I was
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: a kid, Like I kind of started, you know, watching
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: horror movies young, when I was like six and on
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 1: and stuff like that. My mom was into Stephen King,
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: so we were always watching Stephen King movies and shit.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: And like now that I'm going back and watching it,
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: I remember them being worse a lot of times than
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: they are now, and like I feel like now when
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: I watch them, I'm like, oh, that's actually pretty decent,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: like even if it has some goofy moments, like pretty
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: solid movies.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: Yeah. I think that that that happens with a lot
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: of early horror. I think like newer horror, at least
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 3: in the last like I say, fifteen years or so,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: it is more serious throughout, and I think there's much
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: more in the eighties and nineties. Horror seventies was pretty
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 3: serious too, but the eighties and nineties they try to
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: make some levity in there. Like Freddy Krueger is, you know,
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 3: he's like a he's like a fifties comedian. He's cracking
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: bad jokes and like, I think it makes it more
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: you know, more watchable or something like that, where it's
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: not just like the vibe isn't just like it follows
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 3: is just a heavy vibe the entire time, whereas Freddy
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 3: Krueger is like he's got one liners, you know, and
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: it's and and there's something terribly cheesy about it, but
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 3: there's something very endearing about it. And you know, I
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 3: appreciate it as a you know, as an adult more
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: than I did when I was a kid.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: Maybe yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: You get the MTV Freddie and you know things that
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: I start to go off the rails.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: It's it's a lot of fun.
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: Well I think that wraps it up, So thank you
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: so much Eddie for coming on. Where can people buy
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: your book?
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 3: You can buy it on Amazon or where you normally
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: buy books, but you know, Amazon's fine with me if
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: you can order it your library. If you want to
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: go to your public library, just request a copy.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 4: That'd be cool.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram at Eddie McNamara NYC.
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: And you know, if you read the book and you
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 3: want to talk Zodiac with me, please feel free. I
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: really do enjoy these conversations, so I can. You know,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: I can talk about this.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 4: All day right on. Well, thank you so much, thank you,