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Trump Revives Birtherism · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Dan Pfeiffer.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: On today's show, with Kamala Harris' VP announcement imminent, we'll
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: read the tea leaves and talk through the shortlist. We'll
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: also talk about how, as we suspected, Trump already seems
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: to be regretting his VP pick. And reports of Project
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: 2025's demise may be greatly exaggerated. But first, the fallout
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: continues from one of the worst, most deranged interviews Donald
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: Trump has ever given, which is saying a lot. His
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: live appearance on Wednesday at the National Association of Black
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Journalists convention. So Lovett and Stacey Abrams reacted in real
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: time on the Wednesday pod, but there have been some
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: developments since then that have kept this story going, namely
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: the fact that Trump and his campaign have decided to
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: double down on his accusation that Kamala Harris isn't really black,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: and the vice president's response at an event that evening
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: in Houston. Let's listen first as a refresher to Trump's comments,
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: and then you'll hear what the VP said in response.
• 1:23
  Speaker 3: Some of your own supporters, including Republicans on Capitol Hill,
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: have labeled Vice President Kamala Harris, who is the first
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: black and Asian American woman to serve as vice president
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: and be on a major party ticket, as a DEI hire.
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: Is that acceptable language to you?
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: How do you define DEI?
• 1:40
  Speaker 5: Go ahead.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: How do you define it?
• 1:42
  Speaker 3: Diversity, equity, inclusion.
• 1:43
  Speaker 5: Okay, yeah, go ahead.
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: Is that what your definition?
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: That is literally the words, DEI.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: Give me a definition then.
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: Would you give me a definition of that? Give me
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: a definition.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Sir, I'm asking you a question, a very direct question. No, no,
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: you have to define it.
• 1:54
  Speaker 4: Define it for me.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: If you will.
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: I just defined it, sir.
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: She was always of Indian heritage and she was only
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: promoting Indian heritage. I didn't know she was black until
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: a number of years ago when she happened to turn
• 2:06
  Speaker 4: black and now she wants to be known as black.
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: So I don't know, is she Indian or is she black?
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: Donald Trump spoke at the annual meeting of the National
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: Association of Black Journalists. And it was the same old show.
• 2:22
  Speaker 5: The divisiveness and the disrespect. And let me just say,
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: the American people deserve better. The American people deserve better.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: All right. Let's start with the man who's had a
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: spiritual awakening since his assassination attempt. What the hell do
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: you think Donald Trump was up to with that response
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: and that whole interview? Like the entire interview, he was
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: just unhinged, unhinged.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: I think I've now listened to this interview several times.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I've listened to.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: It's funny.
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: Like last night I had watched it. Tommy had it
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: on his computer when it was happening. And so I started,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: I tuned in because I was so busy. I didn't
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: even know what was happening. And then I went home
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: last night just because I was so stunned. Not like
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: surprising because nothing about Donald Trump is surprising, but just shocking.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: And watched the whole thing again. And it was even
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: worse the second time.
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was traveling back home from a family trip
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: and I was in the airport and I was like
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: following the slacks coming in and the texts. And I
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: was like, this seems bad with my family. My parents
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: are like, how bad is it? I was like, I
• 3:30
  Speaker 2: don't know what's happening, but it seems very bad. And the, well,
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: let me just say that in listening to it, the true,
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the part that's not getting enough attention because it's, it
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: might be the funniest part in what is largely an
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: unfunny and highly offensive interview is when he keeps asking
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: her to find DEI and she keeps, I.
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: Was just going to say that exact words.
• 3:49
  Speaker 2: She's like, that is the literal definition.
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: But it's obviously he doesn't, he doesn't really get, he
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: knows that there's a DEI attack that the right wing
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: has been using and that it's like, it's, you know,
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: it's racist and, you know, or it's a wedge issue
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: that they can use. He like gets the politics around it,
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: but he has no fucking idea what DEI is.
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: I think he thinks it's a word, not an acronym,
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: which is why he was so confused by her saying it. Like,
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, he thinks it's like, I would love to
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: see him try to spell it. I mean, let's start
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: with why he was at the National Association of Black
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: Journalists to begin with. I can sort of see the
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: meeting weeks ago, maybe months ago, in the Trump campaign
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: headquarters where they decided to do this, right? At the
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: time they're running against Joe Biden, we know from all
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: the interviews that Chris LaCivita and Susie Wiles have done
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: to tell us how smart they think they are, that
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: black men are a huge target for the Trump campaign.
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: They go out, so in their minds, like we can
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: go to the National Association of Black Journalists, talk to
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: all of the black media in one fell swoop, and
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: a Republican president who's been repeatedly called a racist by
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: Democrats showing up at NABJ would be a grand gesture
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: to show that he's courting their vote, that he is actually,
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: unlike most Republican presidents in the past, he's actively seeking
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: the votes of the black community.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: And they knew too that Joe Biden, at least in polling,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: was having trouble with younger black voters.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: It was highly unlikely to go do an interview at
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: an ABJ. So he would have the stage to himself.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Now, that is one of the things that makes, like,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: that's an idea in theory. But if Chris Lasavita and
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Susie Wallace were as smart as they want us to
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: think they are, they would have remembered their candidate is
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: a racist asshole who also cannot and will not– he
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: doesn't like tough questions and he really doesn't like them
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: from black women. And so this– even if we end
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: up in this place where he was clearly reeling from
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: how the race has shifted and all the momentum that
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris has and seeing her fill arenas and the
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: polls tightening and all of that, just in any scenario,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: even if he was still in his like coronation phase
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: against Joe Biden– he still was going to have to
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: answer these questions in front of, with very good journalists
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: asking himself questions. And he was going to melt down there.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Maybe not to this degree, but he was definitely going
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: to melt out on that stage. It was one of
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: those things that's a good idea in theory, but theory
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: fails to account for the fact that Donald Trump is
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: the candidate.
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I also think right before he did the interview,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: he had some crazy post about like, I thought we
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: tried to do this on Zoom and now Kamala Harris
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: is not doing it on or gets to do it
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: on Zoom. And now I have to be there in person.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if when the race changed
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: and he knew it was just him and Kamala and
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: then he was like, oh, now I have to go
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: to the National Association of Black Journalists. He was already probably,
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: you know, he probably wanted to do it over Zoom
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: and not actually go there. Then he goes there. And
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: then I'm sure because he's Donald Trump and he thinks
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: he's fucking great. He thought that the first question was
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: going to be like, hey, you know, Mr. President, thank
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you for being here. And what's your plan on, you know,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: and the fact that the first question was so pointed
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: about all of the, you know, you had a dinner
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: with a white supremacist. You have, you know, said all
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: these racist things. I think that when you challenge Trump
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: like that, we've seen this with other interviewers, too. the
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: few that actually really push and challenge him, that's when
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: he loses his shit.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: It was similar to that Brett Baer interview when he
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: went through all the people in Trump's cabinet and team
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: who had turned against him, right? And Trump melted down
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: about that too.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so some people are like, was it a strategy
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: to say that? It's possible. Anything is possible with Donald
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: Trump and his campaign. But having watched him for the
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: last eight years, it just seems like, when you challenge
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, when you corner Donald Trump, when he's already upset,
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: he's going to say crazy shit, racist shit, sexist shit.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: It just comes out. And like, I don't, so that
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: now what happened next, I think is clearly strategic. Well,
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: but in quotes, in quote, right.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: We can debate that. I don't want to ruin your day,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: but I want you to know it's just been nine years.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: We've been, we've been podcasting with Donald.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: Trump for nine years. Yeah, we did something wrong in
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: another life.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: Well, I guess we've been podcasting about for eight years,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: but we've been watching out Trump for nine years just
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: to be factually accurate.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: So after it happens, he doubles down and the campaign
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: doubles down. At his rally that night in Harrisburg, the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: campaign projected an image of a business insider headline that
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: noted how Harris became California's first Indian American senator, which
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: is true. Trump also posted a video clip of Kamala
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: cooking Indian food with Mindy Kaling. and said, quote, crazy
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: Kamala is saying she's Indian, not black, stone cold phony.
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: She uses everybody, including her racial identity. Why does he
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: and the campaign think that this is like a winner
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: for them? Why are they? What's what's what do you
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: think is the only thing I can think of on
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the doubling down is like one of the first principles
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump and all the people around him is
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: never apologize, never back down. just like lean into any
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: kind of gaffe or controversial statement you make.
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: I think there is some of that for sure. It
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: was like, what did Lovett used to call them? Intellectual
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Zambonis who would go around behind Trump and like clean
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: up the mess. I think he's like strategic Zambonis here.
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: I think that there is a strategy that is a
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: very tried and true, very misogynistic strategy often used against
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: female candidates and female candidates of color, which is to
• 9:29
  Speaker 2: paint them as overly ambitious, do anything for power. And
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: so what I think take away the way Donald Trump
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: did this, like his execution of their plan was horrendous
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: and offensive and counterproductive and hurt him in ways that
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: we can talk about. I think the campaign's message is
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: they're racing to define Kamala Harris and they want to
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: do this argument where she said she was black when
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: it helped her in this way. She said she was
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Indian when it helped her in this way, as a
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: way to make her seem unprincipled, phony. We've seen this
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: strategy run against candidates, especially women candidates, all the time
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: from Republicans. Trump just did it in a way that
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: was like such an unsubtle sledgehammer that it kind of
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: blew up in his face.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Could I just point out why it's so fucking stupid
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and like, Where it's coming from, that's not only in
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's mind, but like a broader feeling on the
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: right with some of this DEI bullshit. It's like, first
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: of all, Kamala Harris, her mother came here from India.
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: Her father came here from Jamaica. She has talked about
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: that for her entire career. She has written about it
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: in her book. She's given speeches about it when she
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: became the vice president. all of the stories everywhere said
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: that she was the first black and South Asian woman
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: to be vice president. A lot of firsts. There was
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: a whole millions of headlines about that. So the idea
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: that it was hidden or she, she tries to, she
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: turned black is just nonsense, right? She went to a Howard.
• 11:04
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Historically black sorority.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: Yes. But they are trying to argue that somehow being
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: black is, Or presenting as black is an advantage, is
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: a political advantage in some places, because everyone knows that
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: black Americans, you know, they have all this privilege and advantage, right? Historically, right?
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: And that sometimes saying that you have Indian heritage gives
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: you some advantage politically, which is just, it's so fucking preposterous,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: but it's exactly how the right thinks now, which is like, oh, well,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: if you're white, you know, you have to work hard
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: and get ahead. But if you're black or if you're
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: some other minority, then the way that society is now
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: and where's DEI and everything else, then you get an
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: advantage that other people don't get. That's the real racist
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: part of it. And that's what he was really getting at.
• 11:54
  Speaker 2: It is a, without using the acronym slash word, it's
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: a way of making, of arguing she is a DEI candidate.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: She could never have succeeded in this way on her
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: own because it is impossible to, for these Republicans to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: fathom the idea that a woman or a black woman
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: or Indian woman could best them in all these ways
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: to achieve what she has achieved, to win the election
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: she's won, to advance in the career. They can't comprehend that.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: They get to this also because Kamala Harris's story, the
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: fact that she's black and Indian, is also an anathema
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: to their view of America. What Trump is really arguing
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: is that he is a bulwark against changes in this
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: country that mean that white men are going to have
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: less power to become a more diverse country. And so
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: the idea of Kamala Harris is that, as Barack Obama
• 12:43
  Speaker 2: in the same way, was something they could not comprehend,
• 12:45
  Speaker 2: they could not wrap their mind around, and so they
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: must lash out at it in the most offensive ways possible.
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: It does not compute in their mind that she could
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: have achieved everything she achieved based on her hard work,
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: her talent, her brains, her grit, all of that. That
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: is not in their worldview. It is not possible for them.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris, who has won more elections than Donald Trump
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: and J.D. Vance combined, who has more political experience in
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: years than Donald Trump and J.D. Vance combined, who won
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: the race for attorney general, a close race for attorney general,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: particularly the primary in the largest state in the country,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: who won a race for U.S. Senate in the largest
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: state in the country, the fifth largest economy in the world.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: and then who went on to run for president and
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: got selected as vice president and then just spent four
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: years working with Joe Biden in the White House. That
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: is the DEI candidate that they are denigrating there.
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: Just the other thing, I was on the Bulwark podcast
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: today with Tim Miller and something he pointed out that
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: had not occurred to me, J.D. Vance's kids.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: I know, which I didn't even want to mention because
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: it's like they're his kids, but like, oh my God.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: I didn't want to bring him up either, but he
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: got asked about it and just basically- stuck with Trump
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: instead of pushing back anyway, even separating himself in the
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: most mild way to acknowledge the complexity of American life.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Also, Donald Trump's daddy gave him a bunch of money,
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: and then he swindled his way to his fortune. That's
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: how Donald Trump got where he is. That's Donald Trump's advantage.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, his DEI is just being a Richville son.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: So what did you make of Kamala Harris's response? I
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: loved it.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: I loved it as well, but I want to hear
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: why you loved it.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I had a couple people say to me,
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: you know, Trump doing this and everyone calling him racist
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: and him taking over the news cycle with this, it's
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: giving me 2016 vibes where we were all like, oh,
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: Trump every day was saying something sexist about Hillary or
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: then he was saying something racist about someone else.
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: And.
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Suddenly that became the campaign and we all thought, oh,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: of course he's going to lose and then he wins.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And I do think that not just the Clinton campaign,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: but the whole Democratic Party has sort of learned over
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: the last several years that he wants us to take
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: the bait.
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: He wants he was desperate for the Harris campaign and
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: Democrats to be like, you're a racist. And then he's like,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I didn't say anything racist. I said that she's just
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: trying to prove that she's not really black, you know, like,
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: and they want that. And the fact that Kamala Harris
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: stood up there and said it was disrespectful, like he
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: always is, and it's divisive, which he always is, but
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: same old story, same old act. We're all tired of it.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: We've been hearing it for nine years. There's nothing new.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: It's complete bullshit. This is why we need to move forward.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: This is why we need to turn the page. It
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: is the strongest argument and it prevents her from getting
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: sucked in. And it's also not ignoring it altogether because
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: I'm sure some people, oh, she should ignore it. You
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: can't ignore it. But I think lifting it up and
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: making it about it's not a fight between Kamala Harris
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: and Donald Trump. He wants it to be a personal
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: fight between the two of them. What she needs to
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: do is every time he does this, talk about like,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: this is a race about the people of this country
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: and living in an inclusive, diverse country where every single
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: person has the chance to get ahead. That's what this
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: race is about. He doesn't want it to be about that.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: He wants to be about like lobbing insults at me
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: and everyone else because that's who he is. We're so
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: tired of that. Let's move on.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: I thought what I loved about it was she seemed
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: overjoyed to take it on. Like she almost laughed in
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: that clip right before she started because she was ready
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: for it. You're right. It wasn't in anger. It wasn't
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: about her. It was about taking it back on Donald
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Trump and then fitting it back in her frame. And
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: I love when she said, same old stuff, right? We've
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: seen it. It's the past. We're focused on the future.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And there is something, and this is what I have
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: loved about their campaign to date, is they take everything
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: as an opportunity to push their frame, right? They're fighting
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: the war, not the individual battles. Because there was just
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: something inherently old in past that about not understanding people's
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: complex identities in 2024. It is an old man thing, right?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: It is an old, out of touch, 78-year-old rich guy
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: who lives in Palm Beach who doesn't get it. Because
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: tens of millions of Americans identify as biracial, right? Everyone
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: knows someone in their family, their friends, who it's a
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: white mom, black dad, everything, right? And how people talk
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: about it and think about it. And, you know, and
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: this is, we dealt with this with Obama too, right?
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: This was the whole thing. Obama's not black enough, all
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: those things. And people got it. You never had to
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: be explained because they understand because they see it in
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: their lives. And Donald Trump just looks like an old
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: fart that doesn't get it. And that's what you want, right?
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: This is, that is how this race has fundamentally shifted
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: in the last two weeks is it is, we have
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: gone from present versus near past to future versus past.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: And Trump is the past.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: An old fart and an old fart who's fucking scared. Yeah.
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: Like he looked and sounded- weak doing that. Like, I
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: know his whole thing and the whole race against Joe
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: Biden was strength and Joe Biden's weak, but Donald Trump
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: latching out like that makes him seem small and weak.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: It did not come from a position of strength. So,
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: of course, J.D. Vance joined in the stupidity in Arizona
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday night. He called Harris a, quote, phony in
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: his remarks and later added that she has a, quote,
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: fundamental chameleon-like nature that she is, quote, not who she
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: pretends to be, And he also accused her of faking
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: a Southern accent in her Atlanta rally after his event.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Then he went back to defending his comments that not
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: having children makes you, quote, sociopathic. When reporters asked him,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Vance said, quote, I'm happy to defend what I said
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: because what I said is true in a clip that
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: the Harris campaign immediately circulated. Good for them. So we've
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: been wondering when Trump is going to get tired of
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: the J.D. Vance routine. It seems like the time might
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: be now. He was asked about Vance at the NABJ
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: event yesterday. This didn't get, obviously, as much attention for
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: good reason, but here's what he said when he was
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: asked about J.D. Vance. When you look at J.D. Vance,
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: is he ready on day one? Does he what? Ready
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: on day one, if he has to be.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: I've always had great respect for him and for the
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: other candidates, too. But I will say this, and I
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: think this is well documented. Historically, the vice president, in
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: terms of the election, does not have any impact. I mean,
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: virtually no impact.
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: I just can't. We knew it. Honestly, I thought it
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: would come as a leak first, or I thought that
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: maybe Trump would try to dress it up a little more,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: but he basically stuck two daggers in. He was asked,
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: is he ready on day one? And his response is... is,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: is he ready to be president on day one? And
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: his response is, the VP doesn't matter.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: Because you can always, we've now been watching this sad,
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: sad man in the public sphere for so long. You
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: also know this is the conversation he's been having with
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: a bunch of rich, Palm beach donor types who are
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: asking him whether he fucked up the JD Vance pick.
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: And he's, his answer is he can't defend it because
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: there's no upside there at all, but he would just say,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. And he's like, historically, it doesn't matter.
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: It's not exactly true, but it's kind of true. Um,
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: also just the way he mentioned that he liked the
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: other people too. And he did say another like little,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, I could.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Honestly be nervous that I'm like, Oh no, he's going
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: to drop them.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I think there's a chance he could, but I also
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: love that. He said he had always had great respect
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: for him.
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: And also, you know, for meaning like until I didn't
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: know any of this shit was going to happen. That's
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: that's basically what he was trying to say.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, Don Jr. had his one moment in the
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: sun where his dad pretended like he loved him on
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: stage at the convention. And now now he is fucked.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: He has fallen so far below Eric. He might be
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: below Tiffany now in the family inheritance.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: How long does Donald Trump have to do something about J.D.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Vance if he wanted to drop him from the ticket?
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: Don't they have to print ballots somewhat soon in some states?
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Soon-ish. I don't think we're at ballot printing yet, but
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: we're getting pretty close because we're not that far away
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: from early votes starting in a handful of states. So
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: you could, I mean, you can still do the switch
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: after the ballot printing, but you'd much prefer not to.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: That's actually a really good question for an attorney, of
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: which we know someone we could ask. Because I know
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: what happened, how tricky it is. The top of the
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: ticket person is, but I don't know what would happen
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: if it's the wrong person on the ballot. On the bottom.
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: Like if it is all of a sudden it was Trump, Burgum,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: what that would do. But yeah, but basically I think
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: he would have like maybe a week at most to
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: probably do this.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: I also can't imagine it being Burgum as a replacement
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: because it's like, we're going to drop JD Vance, but
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: don't you worry, everyone. We got Doug Burgum.
• 21:50
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know anyone who would be excited
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: for people, but even Rubio, I guess, would be better
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: at that point. I don't know. You know there's a
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: conversation happening somewhere in Mar-a-Lago or in the Trump campaign
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: somewhere where they're whispering about, well, he could ditch J.D.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Vance maybe during the Democratic convention, step on her speech,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: do something like that, get a press hit, or maybe
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: do it the day after. They're thinking about it.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: I guess August 7th would be probably the deadline.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: Right, because that was the Ohio ballot.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris could become president without Ohio. Donald Trump cannot.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: So yeah, August 7th, you'd have to do the switch.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: And then the RNC would have some process by which
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: they just rubber stamped whoever their replacement would be.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: The new, yeah. There was also reporting in the Bulwark
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: that everyone on the Trump team thinks that Kellyanne Conway,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: who was in favor of Rubio for the VP pick,
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: is leaking internal doubts about Vance. She didn't exactly deny
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: it to Mark Caputo at the Bulwark. What do you
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: think is going on there? Is that just internal sniping
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: where the campaign's pissed at Kellyanne and Kellyanne is sniping back?
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Or what's going on there?
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, who knows with these people? One thing that's
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: pretty clear from seeing Kellyanne over all these years is
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: she really wants people to think she's right.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: Right and in the know. The piece said that she
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: bristled at the suggestion that she's not still advising Donald Trump.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: And she's like, I advise him all the time.
• 23:12
  Speaker 2: I mean, yes, that is very clear that she, that
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: in any conversation she has, she must put herself in
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: the center of all big decisions in Trump land. And
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: so you can just see a world where she's telling
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: people that she was in the room pushing for Rubio
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: or whoever else. And so she's not responsible for this
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: numbskull who keeps saying crazy shit. So yeah, it is,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: you know, this is also, it's another sign that wheels
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: are coming off because that's, this was like a flashback
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: to 2017 and 2021 Axios stories about various people knifing
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: each other in Trump world. Like there's been none of that.
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: throughout this campaign. We've joked about the famously disciplined Trump campaign,
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: but one way where they have been more coherent is
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: that there's less of that internal drama spilling out into
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: the pages of Politico and Axios, or the bulwark in
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: this case. This is the first time that's happening. That's
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: also a sign that they are on their heels since
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: Kamala Harris became the presumptive Democratic nominee.
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: Of course, time is a flat circle. All of the
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: Trump campaign internal sniping stories are coming back one more time.
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: Because those stories always come, if history says anything, 14
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: to 21 days after the Trump is a changed man stories.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: So we're right on schedule here.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are. We are. All right. Lastly, before we
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: move off of this horror show of an interview forever,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Rachel Scott also asked Trump whether he can legitimately claim
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: to be the candidate of law and order when he
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: wants to pardon the January 6th rioters. Here's what he said.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: My question is on those rioters who assaulted officers.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: Would you pardon those people?
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely I would. If they're innocent, I would pardon them.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: They've been convicted.
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: And by the way, the Supreme Court just under.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: He would pardon people who have been convicted of physically
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: assaulting police officers. In some cases, giving them injuries that
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: they are still recovering from right now. And we didn't
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: play it in the clip, but afterwards... When she says, well,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they've been convicted, he's like, yeah, but this system, you know,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: this unfair system. So again, convictions only count in Trump's
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: mind when they are convictions against people he does not like,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: when they are convictions against people that support him or
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: the people that he likes, they do not matter. That
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: is the guy who wants to be the chief law
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: enforcement officer in this country and execute our laws.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: Cool stuff. I mean, it is.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: That's going to be the worst politics. Like, I mean,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I just like... I know I could see in the
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: last couple of months, there were a few quotes here
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: and there from people in the Trump orbit that they
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: were like, maybe trying to walk back the pardon thing
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: by saying, well, he wants to, he wouldn't pardon the
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: rioters who've been convicted of physical assault. It's the, it's
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: the ones who've been convicted of like trespassing or just
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: been sitting in jail. And all they did was just
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: walk into the Capitol, right? Like he, right. Just physically
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: assaulting police officers. Sure. Pardoned. I mean, that to me
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: is an ad. That's an ad right there.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: A hundred percent.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: And even the, Like you're really dancing on the head
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: of a pin if you're trying to separate the people
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: who were the actual violence on people who went into
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: the Capitol. Because we've seen in polling, look, there are lots,
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: majorities of Republicans believe that the election was stolen. Many
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: of them believe that Trump did nothing wrong on January 6th.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: They have better feelings about, they think some of the
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: convictions were wrong, the system's broken, but they really do
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: not like the people who actually went into the Capitol.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: And even a lot of Republicans do not think they
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: should be pardoned. And so Trump is, you're right, he
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: is zoned in on, there's no more, there's no less
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: popular way to talk about this than Trump is doing it.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: Like he is, it is, he's just, it's bizarre almost.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: There is, has always been like this self-destructive impulse in
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: him and it is coming out and he is in
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: full flower right now.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: God, this is why I want the debate so badly
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: because can you imagine? Yeah, I know. And again, the
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: last debate, it probably would have happened. He would have,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: been self-destructive had Biden not had the night that he had. But,
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: you know, he wasn't challenged. And I think if he's
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: challenged in a debate, which I'm sure Kamala Harris would do,
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: and I'm sure the moderators would do as well, who knows?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Who knows what we'll see? Speaking of political liabilities, Project
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: 2025 is, quote, winding down its policy operations, according to
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: The Washington Post, and the guy who was running it
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: stepped down. This was also a fun reminder that Project
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: 2025 isn't just a document full of terrible and unpopular ideas.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: It was also a staffing operation run out of the
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Heritage Foundation to act specifically as an administration in waiting
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: for Donald Trump. And it was filled with over 200
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: people who worked in the last Trump administration, including some
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: very senior advisors and a handful of cabinet secretaries. Anyway,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: the Trump campaign released a statement saying, quote, Reports of
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Project 2025's demise would be greatly welcomed. and should serve
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: as notice to anyone or any group trying to misrepresent
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: their influence with President Trump and his campaign, it will
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: not end well for you.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Not everyone's so happy about this on the right. Molly Hemingway,
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: the editor-in-chief of The Federalist, tweeted, Interesting. Thank you, Molly Hemingway.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: What do you think has really been going on behind
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: the scenes between Project 2025 and the Trump people?
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: I think the Trump people really wanted the Project 2025
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: people to shut the hell up, right? They did this
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: all publicly as a way to raise money for the
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: Heritage Foundation and raise the relevance of the Heritage Foundation,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: a group that was very dominant for a long time
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: in public politics and sort of fell out of favor
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: for a long time. And they want all the work.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: They want the lists. They want the ideas. They just
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: don't want the bad press. And this is something that
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: had been getting a ton of attention. Democrats were utilizing
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: it very well. And so they wanted these people to
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: shut up. Now, it's important to note that Donald Trump
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: is the official nominee of the Republican Party. Next, in
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: a couple of weeks, Kamala Harris will be the official
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: nominee of the Democratic Party. And what that will mean
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: is that the federally funded transition operations will begin. So-
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: They don't need Project 2025 in two weeks to staff
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: the government with all these apparatchiks. They can do it.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: The taxpayer dollars will be helping them do it by
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Labor Day.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: It's interesting. When you said that, I thought, oh, now
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: we're going to know. The transition is going to get
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: staffed with people who were part of Project 2025. That
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: is inevitable.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: It won't be the people who are the head of it, obviously.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: No, because they want to be careful, but- like, it's
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: going to become obvious pretty soon that of course the
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Trump campaign embraces both the people and the ideas of
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: Project 2025.
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: Obviously, of course, they're going to do it. There's not
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: even a question in my mind. There is no question
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: in my mind that were Trump to win the White House,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: Project 2025 will be their 100 day, their 200 day,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: their 300 day, their first term plan. That is what
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: they're going to do. And the people on that list
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: are going to be working in that government. Because do
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: you think the Trump people are out there just really
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: combing through LinkedIn looking for undersecretaries of natural resources? Of
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: course not.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: There's no one left. They had like dozens of senior
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: advisors and national security people and cabinet secretaries who've said
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: that Trump is dangerous and a threat and would never
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: work for him again. Whole bunch of other people who
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: probably have legal bills from the last Trump administration. Like,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: they don't have a lot of choices. So, of course,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: that's how they're going to staff their government. And the
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: idea that, because, you know, you talk about sort of
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: the Democratic strategy moving forward on Project 2025. The idea
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: that Donald Trump is somehow separate from these ideas or
• 30:43
  Speaker 1: doesn't embrace most of these ideas. Like, he's already come
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: out for eliminating the Department of Education, rolling back all
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: of Joe Biden's environmental regulations. getting rid of most of
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: the non-political appointees in the federal government to replace them
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: with MAGA loyalists. He included Medicare and Social Security cuts
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: in every single budget he proposed every year he was president.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: All of this stuff he's already agreed to. I don't know.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you think Democrats should do
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: going forward on this?
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: I think we never stop talking about it. We keep pushing.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: We do not take no for an answer here. This
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: is their agenda.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: I would start joking too about Donald Trump saying things like,
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: I know nothing about Project 2025. I think some of
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: the points are fine. Some of them I disagree with.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I've never read the document. I think some of the
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: points are good. I have no idea who's behind it.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: More than 200 people who used to work for me
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: run it. There's a mocking there that I think is
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: important because some Some people will think, oh, well, he's
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: disavowed Project 2025. He says he has nothing to do
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: with it. And I think it's important to, like, remind
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: people that he's full of shit.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: There was plenty of great mainstream press coverage of Project 2025. Like,
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: the press did a very good job of it.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: Really good job.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: But the reason why it broke through was people took
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: it online and started creating their own content about it.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: It really was, like, we are now living in a,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: you know, brat summer, coconut-pilled abundance of pro-Kamala, anti-Trump media.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: But the one success we had prior to the change
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: in candidacy was a lot of people made some great
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: videos and content about Project 2025 that really scared the
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: shit out of a lot of people, and they got shared.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: And so we should continue to do that. These are
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Cheesecake Factory menu lists of bad policies that we can
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: continue to do and people should keep doing and pushing
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: it out there. Because if you're trying to litigate this
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: in the free press, what the Trump people accomplished here
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: is getting the, you know, you can see the debate
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: where the moderator says to Kamala Harris, but the Trump campaign,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: but the project has ended, right? Or in a press
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: conference or an interview that she is doing, not an
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: interview here, an interview with more credulous mainstream media, but
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: on social media, continue to educate people about it because
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: you are in the correct, you are in the right
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: if you are pushing this out there and explaining to
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: people what it is, because that is the Trump agenda,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: whether they disavow this staffing plan or not.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: All right. We are down to the final few days
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: until VP Harris selects a VP of her own. As
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: a reminder, the reporting is that she's going to do
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: a rally on Tuesday, introducing her running mate. That rally
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: is in Philadelphia, stoking a lot of speculation that the
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: pick would be Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro. The campaign said
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: not to read too much into the location. But then today,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: NBC News reported that Shapiro had canceled some fundraisers that
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: were scheduled for this weekend. And Shapiro's folks confirmed that.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: They also reported that Shapiro met with Harris's vetting team
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: on Wednesday. Harris wasn't there, apparently. But reportedly, the vetting
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: team had very similar meetings with Arizona Senator Mark Kelly,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Illinois Governor J.B. Pritzker, Kentucky Governor
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: Andy Beshear, and Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg. How much do
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: you read into all the signs that are pointing towards Shapiro?
• 34:11
  Speaker 2: Do not read anything into the signs. There are no
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: clues whatsoever. I think it's helpful for you and I
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: to explain how this worked when Barack Obama picked Joe Biden.
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: We were in the know. We were senior-ish staffers on
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: that campaign. Up until hours before the announcement, your team
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: was writing three different speeches, right? You wrote a speech
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: for Joe Biden.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Well, I'll tell you what happened. Yes, we were supposed
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: to write all three speeches. I wrote the Joe Biden
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: speech because I was getting vibes that it might be
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden. And then someone else wrote the Evan Bayh
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: speech and someone else wrote the Tim Kaine speech. And
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: I think that I edited the Tim Kaine speech. I
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: don't even think I looked at the Evan Bayh speech.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: I was.
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: Like, he's not picking Evan Bayh. So I had a
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: sense that it was Joe Biden, but you're right. That
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: was all I knew. And we had to do three speeches. Right.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: We had three communications plans. There were three sets of
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: signs that were made.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: And so this idea that Because it's the most closely
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: held secret in the entire campaign. I'm sure the campaign
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: wants to tell their supporters before anyone else knows. So
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: the idea that the advance team knows it's Josh Shapiro,
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: so they booked a rally in Pennsylvania, that is not it.
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: The reason the rally's in Pennsylvania is because Pennsylvania is
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: the most important state for Kamala Harris and Donald Trump
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: to get to 270.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: And it's the closest to Washington DC and Wilmington where
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the campaign is. And so if you're doing a battleground
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: state tour, it makes sense just- logistically, to start in Philly.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: That's so funny you say that. It had not occurred
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: to me until now that the campaign is still in Wilmington, Delaware,
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: even though Kamala Harris is from Oakland, which is so.
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, look, I love my home city, but it's just.
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: I think it's... I've heard that it's split. Like, there's
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: some people who are working out of D.C., and there's
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: some people who are still working out of Wilmington, so
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: we'll see.
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: And this idea... Josh Shapiro may be canceling his fundraisers
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: because he's probably been told, as have the other finalists,
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: to keep their weekend's open for some sort of secret
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: meeting with Kamala Harris. They're not going to, she's not
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: going to pick.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: That was my thought on that.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: And this, there's the other thing you mentioned about the fundraiser,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: about donors or campaign fundraisers telling people that they should
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: give now because there are certain laws about people who
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: do business with the state giving for governors. The fundraisers
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: also don't know.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: No one knows.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: No one would tell a fucking fundraiser.
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. If the fundraiser knows, you know, right?
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: The fundraiser knows failure.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: And so I don't know that she, I, she probably
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: has not made her decision yet. She apparently hasn't met
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: with the, with the finalists yet. The, she probably has
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: an idea of who she was thinking. Like I, Obama
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: clearly was very much leading towards Joe Biden when he,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: I think when he did those final meetings with the folks,
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: but it's probably Kamala Harris, Jenna Malley, Dylan, one or
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: two other people on her closest team who have any
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: sense of where her head is on this. And so
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: all the clues are fake. It's all just noise.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: So some lefty groups like the Democratic Socialists of America
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: and the Uncommitted Movement are making it known that they
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: would not be happy with Shapiro on the ticket, mainly
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: because they think the Jewish governor is too pro-Israel, even
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: though he's called Netanyahu one of the worst leaders of
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: all time, and notably has taken positions on Gaza that
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: are no different than any of the other V.P., contenders.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: What do you think about that?
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: And that makes me deeply uncomfortable that you would have
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: that position specifically for Governor Shapiro.
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Who's the only one who's Jewish. Yeah.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: And even beyond that, just for people's understanding, what matters
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: here is Kamala Harris's position.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: And just to give you an example from our life,
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Barack Obama's signature issue was his opposition to the Iraq War.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden voted for the Iraq War and was a
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: longtime defender of the Iraq War and became Barack Obama's
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: running mate and became then an advocate for Barack Obama's
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: position for ending the Iraq war, right? His position for
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: he to be the VP nominee will be what her
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: position is. And so if you're comfortable with her position,
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: and you may not be, right? And you may want
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: to push her to change or whatever else, but her
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: position is a dominant position here on this issue and
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: every other issue.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: And guess what? Kamala Harris, who's now getting attacked for
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: a position she took in 2019 and 2020 in that primary,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: All of her positions are changed now because they were
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: changed when she got to the White House because her
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: positions were Joe Biden's positions. That's just what you said.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: That's what happens with the VP. And if Josh Shapiro
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: serves in this White House, his positions are going to
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: be Kamala Harris's positions. Aside from that, the reason that
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: Josh Shapiro keeps getting mentioned and he keeps popping up
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: at the top of the list is the guy has
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: a 60% approval rating in Pennsylvania. He has won elections
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: there by a good deal. He outran John Fetterman in 2022. Now,
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: of course, he was running against Doug Mastriano, who is
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: somehow even a worse candidate than Dr. Oz, but he
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: is wildly popular in Pennsylvania. And there was a Fox poll,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: I believe, last week that tested what if it was
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: Shapiro versus Trump in Pennsylvania, and it had him winning
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: by 10 points. And I haven't seen any polling yet
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: that tests how would Harris-Shapiro fare against Trump-Vance in Pennsylvania,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: and would it make a difference on the ticket? So
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that polling yet. But if it if
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: it helps a few points and everything else checks out
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: well with Josh Shapiro and Pennsylvania is the tipping point
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: state in this election, the most important state to win,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: you could see why she would want to go for
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: Josh Shapiro. Yeah.
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, there, the polling is a little, I like
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: hypothetical polling is always a little sketchy. I have seen
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: polling that asks people, would you Pennsylvania voters, would you
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: be more or less likely to vote for Kamala Harris
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: if Josh Shapiro was on the ticket. I've seen some
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: of the questions for Mark Kelly in Arizona. A lot
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: of Pennsylvanians are more likely. Most of them will say
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: it makes no difference. A majority will say it makes
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: no difference. Some of them will say more, and a
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: tiny percentage will say yes. So yeah, we'll say it
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: makes them less likely to vote. But the problem with
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: that polling is the sample sizes aren't good enough to
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: know are the people who are saying more likely people
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: who are voting for Kamala Harris anyway, right? So you
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: don't really know. Whether it's Josh Shapiro or Mark Kelly
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: in Arizona, History shows, and with all of these things,
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: there's a very small sample size issue. But generally, in
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: the past, one to two points is what you can expect.
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: It's considered the home state advantage. That has gone down
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: in recent years as American politicians have gotten more polarized
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: and more nationalized. But over the past, the home state
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: advantage is greatly overstated. But Pennsylvania is probably going to
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: be decided by two points.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: When was the last time– there was a VP on
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: the ticket who was from a very competitive state. Paul
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Ryan in Wisconsin. No, I was going to say who
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: was a statewide official, right? Because Paul Ryan in Wisconsin,
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: it's like he had a district there, and I'm sure
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: people in Wisconsin know him, but he wasn't a statewide
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: official in Wisconsin. Was it Gore in Tennessee? Although Tennessee
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: back in what, in 1992, that wasn't like, a make
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: or break state, was it?
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: Clinton won it easily in 92 and 96. But Gore
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: obviously famously lost it in 2000. So in some cases,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: the home state advantage doesn't work. I think Paul Ryan
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: is the closest approximation because he's not a random congressman.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: He was a national figure with name ID sort of
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: akin to a statewide elected official. But it's been a
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: long time. The way they measure this generally is not
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: in a battleground state. It doesn't have to be a
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: battleground state. How did the state perform compared to how... the,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: how the candidates perform nationally, right? Because of baseline. And so,
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like Biden did, you know, Obama did
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: a point or two better in Delaware than he otherwise
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: would have done based on, but it's, it's, it's all
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: very hard to disentangle what it means. So I think
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: the thing is, it's not, it is, does not, picking
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: Shapiro does not guarantee Pennsylvania. It may help. It may.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: And as you say the same thing about Mark Kelly
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: in Arizona, it may help, but if it does help,
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: it's only going to help a little. Right.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: I think that's right. And so I think At the
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: end of the day, if you're Kamala Harris, you want someone,
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: first of all, you want someone who can govern, right?
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: Like a lot of these candidates, and Barack Obama thought
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: this too, which is like, I want to pick someone who,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: if something happens to me, then I feel they are
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: ready on day one, like Trump could not say about J.D. Vance.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: And then you want someone that you vibe with on
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: the campaign trail, someone that you know, someone that you trust, right?
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: And so we can make all the political calculations, and
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the Harris campaign is doing that as well,
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: But she's got to feel comfortable with this person. And
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: so what do you think about sort of the other contenders?
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I think, like you said, Kelly would potentially help with
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Arizona a little bit, which is a key state, not
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: as key as Pennsylvania, not as many electoral votes. And
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: she's probably behind there by more than she is in Pennsylvania.
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: So that's something to consider. And then you've got Tim Walz,
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: who it would be someone that you'd pick because he
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: makes a great argument. He's great on TV. and could
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: go to some of those Midwestern states and probably do
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: well campaigning. I think Pete Buttigieg, excellent communicator, one of
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: the best messengers in the party, also says nothing says
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: future than Harris and Pete on the ticket together. So
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: what do you think about some of the other possibilities?
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: I actually think they're all great. Yeah.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: They really are. I actually would not be disappointed.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: There's not a bad choice in the group.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: I didn't have strong feelings about Tim Walz, but then
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I listened to the interview with Lovett and he was awesome.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: And it did remind me that this will also date myself.
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: Back in 2006, campaign ads didn't go viral back then
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: because no way for them to go viral. But Tim
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: Walls had an introductory ad that was based on his
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: time as a football coach for his congressional run in 2006.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: It was one that everyone in town talked about and
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: thought was like the best ad of the cycle, which
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: I looked for for at least seven minutes on YouTube
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: and I could not find. But Tim Walls, he's got
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: a great story. He's a great candidate. the internet has
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: fallen in love with Tim Walsh. Like he is, he is,
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of Tim Walsh on TikTok these days. Um,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I mean, Kelly, it has, obviously it's gravitas, military experience, astronaut,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: Gabby Giffords, you know, um, you know, I, I think
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: provides some ideological moderation and how he's sort of seen
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: as a moderate, um, tough on the border.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Border issues. He's definitely like on paper, like the most
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: impressive resume.
• 44:36
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: But then the question is, you know, we've, I've seen
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people who are on paper really good.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: It doesn't pan out. But on paper, I think you're right.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Like an astronaut who was in the military and– I mean,
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: let's– yeah. Border state.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: He's had two tough– two really tough races. Two high-profile
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: tough races. Shapiro has not had a tough race.
• 44:54
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: That's because Doug Mastriano, kook.
• 44:57
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: And then– And then Attorney General races. His Attorney General races,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: which was statewide.
• 45:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: But it's not the same.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: He hasn't had a lot of money spent against him.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: So we don't– Kelly has been in the crucible.
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: And so you can have some– that gives you– Like,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: it's hard to compare a Senate race to a presidential race,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: but at least you've seen he's had some things. The
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: other thing is, I talked about the Susan Rice when
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: I talked to her for last week's pod, is all
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: that stuff is interesting, but the president and the vice
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: president have lunch together once a week. And so you
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: really do have to, like, think about this. You have
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to pick someone. Like, imagine you're hiring someone for your company,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: and they're like, you're like, I'm going to have to
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: have lunch with this person once a week for the
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: next 48 years. Like, you really got to like the person.
• 45:37
  Speaker 2: You really got to think it's going to be an interesting,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: useful conversation.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Honestly, honestly, that's why I hired Lovett to be the
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: speechwriter in the White House. Because I was like, did
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: the interviews. There's a lot of good candidates, a lot
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: of good speeches. But at the end of the day,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: I was sitting there at Starbucks and he's making me laugh.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, I think I could hang out with
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: this guy.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: 15 years later, you're still eating lunch together.
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: If only I could go back. Just kidding. Just kidding.
• 46:01
  Speaker 5: Love it.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I agree. And also, she knows Lovett. Josh Shapiro,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: because they were AGs together, the same class of AGs,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: and same thing with Beshear. We haven't talked about Beshear,
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: but Andy Beshear is also that class of attorneys general.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: So some of these personal relationships probably matter as well. Well,
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: we'll see. We'll see. We'll see if it leaks. So
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: the event's gonna be Tuesday, so it might, really hoping
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: it leaks before we record on Monday, but who knows?
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: We have really gotten lucky with some news recently. So
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: I think that this one is definitely, you're going to,
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: Put that pot in the can, and then it's going
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: to pop right out.
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, probably. All right. Before we go, the election cycle
• 46:41
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• 46:43
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• 46:44
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  Speaker 1: is a Crooked Media production. Our producer is David Toledo.
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  Speaker 1: Our associate producers are Saul Rubin and Farrah Safari. Reid
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  Speaker 1: Cherlin is our executive editor and Adrian Hill is our
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  Speaker 1: executive producer. The show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick.
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  Speaker 1: executive assistant. Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones,
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