Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1081 - An Adventurous Life

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#1081 - An Adventurous Life · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:04
Speaker 1: It's their Happy Family's podcast. It's the podcast for the
0:08
Speaker 1: time poor parent who just once answers.
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Speaker 2: Now about three weeks ago, maybe four weeks ago now,
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Speaker 2: location Location, Location presenter in the UK, Kirsty Allsop was
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Speaker 2: forced to hit back against critics after being mum shamed
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Speaker 2: for allowing her fifteen year old to travel around Europe
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Speaker 2: Kylie check this out.
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Speaker 3: The TV personality. Christie Allsop was reported to Social Services
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Speaker 3: after admitting that her teenage son had gone abroad without
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Speaker 3: any adults. Kirsty's son, Oscar spent three weeks interrailing in
0:40
Speaker 3: Europe with a friend. Now he was just fifteen when
0:42
Speaker 3: he left and turned sixteen last week. Kirsty defended this
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Speaker 3: saying if we're afraid, our children will be afraid if
0:50
Speaker 3: we let them go, they will fly.
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Speaker 2: Fifteen years old, Oscar Hercules is given the opportunity to
0:56
Speaker 2: jump on the train and hang out with the mate
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Speaker 2: who's sixteen. So fifteen year old and a sixteen year
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Speaker 2: old zooming around Europe on the train across the holidays.
1:03
Speaker 2: He went to Paris, Brussels, Amsterdam, Berlin, Munich, Marseille to
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Speaker 2: lose Barcelona and Madrid.
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Speaker 4: That's a pretty extensive travel over a water trip.
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Speaker 2: I mean obviously lives in the UK, so those places
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Speaker 2: so well, you can get to them on the train.
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Speaker 2: But the funeral that her posting about it on social
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Speaker 2: media created was enormous, absolutely huge. People flipping out about
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Speaker 2: a fifteen year old boy. I mean he was only
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Speaker 2: a couple weeks off sixteen, let's be honest, so he's
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Speaker 2: two years until he's an adult. Flipping out that a
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Speaker 2: fifteen year old boy would be allowed to do that
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Speaker 2: reminded me of Lenorskannazzi of the Free Range Kids movement,
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Speaker 2: the Let Grow movement. She allowed her nine year old son,
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Speaker 2: with appropriate preparation, to catch a train, a subway train
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Speaker 2: in New York City, two or three stations from where
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Speaker 2: they got on the train to where they lived on
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Speaker 2: his own at the age of nine. She was mum
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Speaker 2: shamed and called the worst mother in the world. And
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Speaker 2: it got me thinking, what are we doing with our kids?
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Speaker 2: Are we doing this right or is it that we're
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Speaker 2: getting this completely wrong. When you hear that and you
2:15
Speaker 2: think about these experiences and the way we live, what's
2:19
Speaker 2: your reaction.
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Speaker 4: I've been listening to you as you've been speaking, trying
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Speaker 4: to work out how I feel about this, because in reality,
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Speaker 4: I grew up in a really risk adverse home. I
2:29
Speaker 4: lived in a really controlling environment. There wasn't a lot
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Speaker 4: of scope for me to take big risks in any way,
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Speaker 4: shape or form, to the point that I wouldn't actually
2:39
Speaker 4: buy anything without permission, right, So that's just that it's
2:45
Speaker 4: a purchase let alone, you know, catching a subway or
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Speaker 4: catching a train, or whatever the case might be.
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Speaker 2: Conversely, growing up in the I mean, I started school
2:55
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty and through those early eighties, I was
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Speaker 2: walking home on my own couple of keys. From about
3:02
Speaker 2: the age of seven. I would let myself in the
3:06
Speaker 2: back door where we had the key hidden, and then
3:08
Speaker 2: I'd jump on my bike with Andy Lucas and we
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Speaker 2: would go down to the park on Gil to drive.
3:13
Speaker 2: We would ride our bikes all afternoon, and as long
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Speaker 2: as I got home before my parents and before it
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Speaker 2: was dark, I had free reign. I could do whatever
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Speaker 2: I wanted as a seven year old, as an eight
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Speaker 2: year old. When I was thinking about this story, Kylie,
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Speaker 2: I did a little bit of googling, and I found
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Speaker 2: this brilliant article on our website that I used to
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Speaker 2: look at a long time ago. I haven't looked at
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Speaker 2: it for ages. It's called the art of manliness. And
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Speaker 2: a couple of years ago Brett McKay wrote this article.
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Speaker 2: He said before Steve McQueen's eighteenth birthday. Okay, so he's
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Speaker 2: a teenager, Steve McQueen, famous actor. He'd worked on a farm,
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Speaker 2: joined a circus, sold pens at a traveling carnival, hitchhiked
3:51
Speaker 2: and rode the rails across the country, worked as a
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Speaker 2: lumberjacking Canada, laybored on a chain gang in the Deep
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Speaker 2: South that was a punishment for the crime of vagrancy.
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Speaker 2: He served a short and illegal stint in the Merchant Marine,
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Speaker 2: was illegal because he was underage, and joined the Marine
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Speaker 2: Corps for a three year enlistment. When he finally got
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Speaker 2: out of the service, the newly minted veteran moved to
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Speaker 2: New York City, where, as reported in Steve McQueen in
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Speaker 2: his own words quote, he handcrafted sandals, lugg radiators out
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Speaker 2: of condemned buildings, loaded bags and a post office, ran
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Speaker 2: errands for a local bookie, recap tires in the garage,
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Speaker 2: sold Encyclopedia's daughter door, made artificial flowers and a musty basement,
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Speaker 2: sold pottery in a large department store, and repaired television sets.
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Speaker 2: Close quote and I look at that and I think
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Speaker 2: our kids are so boring. You think about it, the
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Speaker 2: breadth and the adventure that I mean, it's obviously kind
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Speaker 2: of unique. But Sean Connery served in the Royal Navy
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Speaker 2: from sixteen to nineteen, worked as a milkman, a lifeguarded
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Speaker 2: truck driver, of laborer, and an artist's model. James Garner
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Speaker 2: did a stint as a merchant mariner at the end
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Speaker 2: of World War Two. Then this is a sixteen year
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Speaker 2: old James Garner served fourteen months in Korea as a
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Speaker 2: rifleman and earned two purple hearts, are being twice wounded,
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Speaker 2: and the list goes on and on and on. Our
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Speaker 2: kids just aren't doing this sort of stuff. And I
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Speaker 2: look at what Kirsty Alsop did and I just think,
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Speaker 2: you go like, our kids are not I don't want
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Speaker 2: to say getting in enough trouble. That sounds like I'm
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Speaker 2: looking for children to be rebellious and getting up to mischief.
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Speaker 2: Our children are lacking adventure. And we've got this resilience
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Speaker 2: malay going on where everyone's just begging for resilient children.
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Speaker 2: But if you don't let your kids do hard things,
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Speaker 2: they don't get to be resilient. I guess it's the
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Speaker 2: key point that I'm trying to.
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Speaker 4: Make over this past week. We actually sent our fourteen
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Speaker 4: year old down to be with her grandparents, So we
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Speaker 4: haven't sent her off into the wilderness or by herself.
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Speaker 4: She's gone to a safe home and she's been volunteering
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Speaker 4: on a horse ranch. Now, if she was at home,
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Speaker 4: getting her out of bed in the morning.
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Speaker 2: Is zero an all deal. It doesn't happen.
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Speaker 4: She rolls over, puts blanks over her head, ignores me.
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Speaker 4: She's just I can't hear me, even though our eyes
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Speaker 4: are half open, and it's a it's a couple of
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Speaker 4: hours drawn out process.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's horrible.
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Speaker 4: She doesn't like using her body, she doesn't like being active,
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Speaker 4: she doesn't like doing hard things, but she loves horses.
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Speaker 4: We've sent her down there. She's been ringing me at
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Speaker 4: five thirty in the morning. I'm talking fully awake, alert, energized, excited.
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Speaker 4: She gets in the car with your father, drives off
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Speaker 4: to his work, and then has to wait an hour
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Speaker 4: and a half before she can get to the horses.
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Speaker 4: And she spends an entire day in manual labor.
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Speaker 2: Like shoveling horse poop, and she's rushing.
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Speaker 4: Fast, been happier. Yeah, it is so joyous watching our
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Speaker 4: kids do hard things and actually realize that in finding
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Speaker 4: purpose and direct in our lives, that they actually come
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Speaker 4: to life. And I love watching that in her. I've
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Speaker 4: seen it happen in each of our girls in different
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Speaker 4: ways and through different experiences, and it's just it's amazing
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Speaker 4: when they do something they didn't think they could do.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to add a couple of things here
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Speaker 2: in case people think this is some sort of privilege
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Speaker 2: thing that we're paying for. She's volunteering. So as a
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Speaker 2: homeschool kid, she's got a bit more flexibility than most kids.
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Speaker 2: But she's volunteering her time.
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Speaker 4: She doesn't get paid, not.
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Speaker 2: Getting a penny. And the other funny thing is, I mean,
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Speaker 2: she's barely on a screen, and when I give her
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Speaker 2: a call, maybe at seven thirty or eight o'clock at night,
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Speaker 2: she is exhausted. I can't talk to you. I got
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Speaker 2: to go to bed. I'm so tired. But she's having
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Speaker 2: these adventures. She's hanging around with just a wide variety
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Speaker 2: of people having all these adventures being outside literally living
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Speaker 2: her best life. And I'm looking at this and going,
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Speaker 2: we've really stuck this world up in so many ways
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Speaker 2: in terms of the expectations that we have in our
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Speaker 2: kids and the way that we control them and prevent
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Speaker 2: them from living an adventureous life. On the podcast, like,
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Speaker 2: we've talked a fair bit about risky play, the importance
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Speaker 2: of it. We've referred to different societies around the world,
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Speaker 2: the Canadian Psychological Society, the American Pediatric Association, who are
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Speaker 2: literally pleading with parents to get the kids involved in
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Speaker 2: what we now call risky play, which was once upon
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Speaker 2: a time just called play. So maybe I want to
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Speaker 2: take the kids camping more, quite honestly, because that there's
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Speaker 2: just something about being outside and that's what our kids
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Speaker 2: need so that they can be resilient.
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Speaker 5: Kirsty also a TV presenter, of course, who has been
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Speaker 5: at the center possibly one of the most bizarre controversies
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Speaker 5: that I've seen in modern times. You know, we talk
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Speaker 5: about how the world has gone completely stark, staring bonkers mad. Kirsty,
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Speaker 5: Very good morning to you. Thank you so much for
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Speaker 5: joining us. I mean, this has been I think one
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Speaker 5: of the great illustrations of what's wrong with this country.
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Speaker 1: I'm very interested in the recent research which says that
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Speaker 1: some of the anxiety that young people are suffering is
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Speaker 1: due to a lack of trust, that we become increasingly
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Speaker 1: risk averse, that we think the world is a more
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Speaker 1: dangerous place, which it isn't, and as a result, we
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Speaker 1: are holding our children back and that this isn't very
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Speaker 1: good for.
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Speaker 2: Them, Kylie. One of the things that came up a
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Speaker 2: lot with the parent shaming was the question what if
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Speaker 2: something happened? What if something happened?
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Speaker 4: I think we live our lives like that, don't we.
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Speaker 2: Well, if we do, though we end up living small lives.
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Speaker 4: We do. We do the reality that me literally getting
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Speaker 4: in my car every day, there's a what if?
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Speaker 2: Right yeah, or catching an aeroplane or whatever it might be.
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Speaker 2: When I'm doing my workshops, and I should just hasten
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Speaker 2: to add, no matter what, if something does happen, you
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Speaker 2: wonder what could I have done? What could I have done?
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Speaker 2: In my workshops when I'm teaching my resilience presentations, I
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Speaker 2: consistently talk about how valuable it is if kids can
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Speaker 2: have a level of independence, and I make sure that
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Speaker 2: I'm emphasizing developmental appropriateness. We're not in Japan and you're
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Speaker 2: only your three year old walk two kilometers to the
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Speaker 2: shops on their own. That's not what I'm referring to.
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Speaker 2: But if you've got a nine year old that wants
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Speaker 2: to hang out with his or her nine year old friend,
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Speaker 2: instead of saying, well, jump online and chat with each other,
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Speaker 2: why not say, jump on your bike and meet at
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Speaker 2: the park and hang out for an hour and then
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Speaker 2: come home. Why can't we do that? Whenever I say that,
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Speaker 2: though the look of astonishment and terror on parents' faces
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Speaker 2: is enormous, I mean the vast majority, i'd say eighty
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Speaker 2: to nine percent of parents say, oh no, I would
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Speaker 2: never do that with my eight or nine year old.
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Speaker 2: And yet I look at Lenorskanazzi and the nine year
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Speaker 2: old on the subway, I think, absolutely, absolutely, for sure,
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Speaker 2: this is great, especially if I mean the strength in numbers.
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Speaker 2: If the kids are hanging out with others, it's got
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Speaker 2: to be developmentally appropriate. But parents are really terrified of it.
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Speaker 2: And I think if we go back to that Jonathan
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Speaker 2: hate thing that he talks about in the Anxious Generation,
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Speaker 2: the move from a play based childhood to a screen
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Speaker 2: based childhood. We really do believe that there are awful
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Speaker 2: people who are out there to get our kids, and
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Speaker 2: yet the research seems to indicate that our children are
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Speaker 2: safe today than ever before, never been safer.
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Speaker 4: Once your kids are old enough, they've literally got a
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Speaker 4: tracking device on them all the time. You've got a phone,
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Speaker 4: and you can have access to them whenever you need to. Like,
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Speaker 4: I can't imagine being a parent back in our parents'
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Speaker 4: day when you literally said goodbye to your kids and then.
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Speaker 2: You didn't see them here from your access.
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Speaker 4: To them at all until the end of the day.
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Speaker 2: I remember when I was maybe, I know, twelve eleven
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Speaker 2: something like that, Mum had dropped me off at the
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Speaker 2: doctor's surgery. I had to have an appointment about whatever
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Speaker 2: it was, and she had to go and run some
11:48
Speaker 2: errands her warehouse. Mom and dad ran a furniture warehouse
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Speaker 2: back in those days, and her warehouse was about a
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Speaker 2: five k walk from the doctor's offices the doctor's surgery,
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Speaker 2: and I waited out on the curb side for Mom
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Speaker 2: after my appointment for probably about forty minutes. She'd been
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Speaker 2: caught up, she'd been involved in something else. She'd totally,
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Speaker 2: totally forgotten to come and get me, or hadn't been
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Speaker 2: available to get me. I don't know which it was.
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Speaker 2: Let's say that she wasn't being negligent, but she'd been
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Speaker 2: held up or something like that. And after about forty minutes,
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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, this is dumb, and so I
12:18
Speaker 2: just started walking. And in my mind, as an eleven
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Speaker 2: year old, I thought, if Mum is on her way
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Speaker 2: to find me, what is the most likely path that
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Speaker 2: she'll follow. What are the roads that she'll take? And
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Speaker 2: I walked back in that direction. I made it about
12:31
Speaker 2: four of those five kilometers, so I guess I walked
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Speaker 2: for about forty or fifty minutes before Mum drove along
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Speaker 2: the road and she saw me and pulled over and said,
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Speaker 2: I'm so glad I found you. I've just left I've
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Speaker 2: had all these problems. And I jumped in the car
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Speaker 2: and that was it. But there were no phones, there
12:45
Speaker 2: was no way for her to contact me. She just
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Speaker 2: trusted that i'd wait out on the curb. And then,
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Speaker 2: I mean, fortunately I had the smarts to know which
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Speaker 2: way she was probably going to drive, and she spotted
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Speaker 2: me on the side of the street.
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Speaker 4: But you only have the smarts if you've given opportunities to.
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Speaker 2: Exactly right, That's exactly what I was going to say.
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Speaker 4: Because so many kids they wouldn't have a clue what
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Speaker 4: to do in that situation. They'd be absolutely panicked because
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Speaker 4: they've never been left to actually utilize those skills.
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Speaker 2: Probably worth highlighting that it would never be a problem
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Speaker 2: because our children would probably have a device on them,
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Speaker 2: or they would be able to ask the doctor surgery
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Speaker 2: to ring mum on the phone and say where are you?
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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I'm five minutes later. My kids are on
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Speaker 4: the phone going just checking. Are you coming to pick
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Speaker 4: me up?
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Speaker 2: Exactly Yeah, So we've got We've got what I guess.
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Speaker 2: The main point that I'm making here is our children
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Speaker 2: have never been safer. It's never been easier to give
13:33
Speaker 2: them the independence and the freedom because unfortunately it's not
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Speaker 2: true independence and freedom. They're still tathered to us one
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Speaker 2: way or another because of those smart devices. This podcast
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Speaker 2: episode really today is just to plead with parents again
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Speaker 2: to in developmentally appropriate ways, give your kids a long leash,
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Speaker 2: or let go of the leash entirely, and give them
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Speaker 2: the opportunity as much as you possibly can to live
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Speaker 2: an adventurous life. These stories that you get to tell
14:00
Speaker 2: when you've done that. I mean, can you imagine sitting
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Speaker 2: around the dining table having a meal with someone like
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Speaker 2: Steve McQueen and hearing that story, or, for that matter,
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Speaker 2: sitting opposite sixteen year old Oscar Hercules and saying, tell
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Speaker 2: me about your trip.
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Speaker 4: I know that you're all for this, but I'm going
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Speaker 4: to put I'm going to push back a little bit.
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Speaker 2: I'm going to push back a little bit, of course.
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Speaker 4: Because in both cases that you've shared with us, with
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Speaker 4: Leonor and Oscar, these were boys. Yep, that's the first thing.
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Speaker 4: How many stories do we hear of mums of young
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Speaker 4: girls taking the same kinds of risk? So that's my
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Speaker 4: first one. And secondly, when we're talking about little kids
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Speaker 4: like this, this is a big deal. Is it? Are
14:47
Speaker 4: we more risk averse now because there are more bad
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Speaker 4: people around? Or are we more risk averse now because
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Speaker 4: media and social media has really amped up the publicity
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Speaker 4: of bad stories?
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Speaker 2: Okay, so there are two questions there. The first one
15:07
Speaker 2: relates to gender. There is unfortunately statistical evidence that indicates
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Speaker 2: that girls are more likely to experience negative outcomes than
15:18
Speaker 2: boys when it comes to assault. For example, Having said
15:22
Speaker 2: that the numbers are still tremendously low, fortunately when it
15:25
Speaker 2: comes to a stranger, but we do definitely see girls
15:28
Speaker 2: as being more vulnerable. You and I are selective and
15:31
Speaker 2: how we do this, but we encourage all of our
15:33
Speaker 2: girls to have independent time, whether it's walking to the
15:36
Speaker 2: nearby IgA or walking to the beach. We're fortunate enough
15:39
Speaker 2: to live within walking distance. It's still a fair hike,
15:41
Speaker 2: but we're within walking or riding distance to the beach,
15:44
Speaker 2: and we encourage our kids to do that from about
15:46
Speaker 2: the age of well, Emily's ten and we're comfortable with
15:49
Speaker 2: her walking round of the IgA. Our kids that are
15:52
Speaker 2: thirteen and above, we're comfortable with them going down to
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Speaker 2: the beach as long as they promise to tell us
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Speaker 2: where they're going and they swim within the flagged areas.
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Speaker 2: So even girls, I think, again, you've got to use
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Speaker 2: your common sense, but we've got to give them the freedom,
16:05
Speaker 2: the flexibility to be able to do this stuff. And
16:08
Speaker 2: we've just sent two of our young adult daughters overseas.
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Speaker 2: They've gone for eighteen months. One of them has just
16:14
Speaker 2: come back and the other one is still away and
16:17
Speaker 2: we'll be away for quite some time. So I'm going
16:20
Speaker 2: to push back a little bit on the gender thing,
16:22
Speaker 2: but developmental appropriateness, and maybe a year or two later
16:25
Speaker 2: so that they're just that much bigger, that much more mature,
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Speaker 2: that much safer. In relation to your question about whether
16:31
Speaker 2: we're a more risk averse culture, the answer is absolutely,
16:34
Speaker 2: fundamentally in every way. Yes, we just were so focused
16:37
Speaker 2: on what. In a different book, Jonathan Hate talks about
16:40
Speaker 2: safety ism and keeping our children safe physically and emotionally
16:44
Speaker 2: and socially and psychologically, and keeping them safe in every
16:47
Speaker 2: way possible, and I just don't think that's good for them.
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Speaker 2: I think they need to be able to encounter some
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Speaker 2: risks and challenges.
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Speaker 4: I remember when I felt really controlled as a child
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Speaker 4: and didn't feel like I had enough freedom to do
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Speaker 4: the things that I wanted to. I would often say
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Speaker 4: to my mum and dad, you can't save me from everything.
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Speaker 4: When I'm a big person, when I've got my own children,
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Speaker 4: I'm going to let them do the things that they
17:09
Speaker 4: want to do, because I think that it's really important.
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Speaker 4: And as we've parented our kids, I definitely am the
17:18
Speaker 4: more risk averse parent in the equation, but I also
17:23
Speaker 4: recognize the importance of allowing our kids to have some space,
17:29
Speaker 4: some rigal room to grow and to experience life in
17:32
Speaker 4: their own time and own way.
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Speaker 2: Risky play. It's the way of the future. Well, it
17:36
Speaker 2: needs to be the way of the I don't know
17:38
Speaker 2: why I said that that, just where did that come from?
17:42
Speaker 2: Let me say that a different way. Our kids need
17:44
Speaker 2: to take risks, risk it's the way of the future.
17:47
Speaker 2: It's not we're going in the wrong direction. It's all
17:50
Speaker 2: about keeping our kids safe these days, and that is
17:52
Speaker 2: not in their best interest. It doesn't help them if
17:54
Speaker 2: be resilient, it doesn't reduce their anxiety. But the more
17:57
Speaker 2: we can I mean, as we're recording this podcast, literally
18:00
Speaker 2: I've looked out the window and I've seen our ten
18:01
Speaker 2: year old taking the dog out the front gate for
18:03
Speaker 2: a walk. And she's going out on supervised and she'll
18:06
Speaker 2: be gone for fifteen or twenty minutes. And she's doing it.
18:09
Speaker 2: Why because she knows that she needs to be in nature.
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Speaker 2: She knows that it's good for her to move her body,
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Speaker 2: and she knows that it's good for the dog, it's
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Speaker 2: good for the dog, and totally comfortable with that, totally
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Speaker 2: comfortable with that it's in her best interest to be
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Speaker 2: able to do it. If you would like more information
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Speaker 2: about how you can help your kids so live life
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Speaker 2: on the edge, check out we'll link to it, The
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Speaker 2: Art of Manliness, The Least Interesting Generation. Will link to
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Speaker 2: that because I think it's just a great read and
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Speaker 2: it's a reminder of what our kids could do if
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Speaker 2: we gave them enough for him to do it. And
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Speaker 2: check out Jonathan Hates's book The Anxious Generation for more
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Speaker 2: around that. The Happy Families podcast is produced by Justin
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Speaker 2: Ruland from Bridge Media. If you'd like more info about
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Speaker 2: making your family happier, you'll find it all happy families
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Speaker 2: dot com dot au