Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Episode 792: The Tables Are Turned. Michele Rosenthal Interviews Guy

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Episode 792: The Tables Are Turned. Michele Rosenthal Interviews Guy · The Trauma Therapist

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All right, welcome back to the Trauma Therapist Podcast. My name is Gamiferson.
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My mission is to help trauma therapist be their incredible selves, to be
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human, to be real, not just a clinician. I'm a big believer
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in who we are is more important than what we know, and this requires
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cultivating authenticity, genuineness, and vulnerability, and that requires intention. Can learn
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more about my courses and workshops by going to the Trauma Therapist project dot com.
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That's the Trauma Therapist Project dot com. Let's get started, all right,
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three two one, Hello, and welcome to a very special edition of
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the Trauma Therapist Podcast. I am Michelle Rosenthal, and today I have hijacked
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the host seat. We can turn around the whole setup and put your good
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friend and mine, Guy McPherson, into the hot seat himself. I think
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that this man has done so much to help the trauma community, to help
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the professional community, the survivor community, to disseminate information and education and learning,
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and that is one of my biggest passions. And it occurred to me,
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we don't hear from him enough, So today this is all about the
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Guy Show. So Guy, thank you so much for joining me. Thanks
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Michelle, I really appreciate you doing this. It's yeah, it's it's definitely
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different and it's intense, but thank you for those kind words. I really
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appreciate it. Well, absolutely. I mean I've known you for over a
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decade and I've seen the evolution of where you were a decade ago to where
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you are today and the shifts and the term in what you're doing and where
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your focus is. And I think it's so so beautiful and it's so necessary.
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So let's start with give me the big picture. What is your mission
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as of today, because it has really morphed since I first met you.
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Tell me where you've landed and what makes it so meaningful to you? Yeah,
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you're right, it has morphed, and not too many people have commented
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on that, so I appreciate you noticing that. You know, my mission
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really continues to be to raise awareness of trauma, but also to honor the
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importance of genuineness, our own genuineness in that and in the healing process.
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I don't think that gets enough. It gets enough, you know, enough
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of the spotlight and how we always talk about being genuine and authentic, but
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really what does that mean? And how the hell do you do it?
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And it's not always easy to do. So I've really focused on, you
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know, whether it's the importance of cultivating genuine iss for a therapist and also
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the importance of cultivating genuine in the therapeutic relationship and everything that that means,
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and not just in the context of providing therapy with a therapist client, but
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in our own lives. So true, and when you think about the fact
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that you know, I've heard the statistic like ninety percent of the results that
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you get in the therapeutic environment come from the therapeutic relationship. And as a
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trauma survivor myself, I know that the different people that I worked with,
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when I've felt they really were genuine and authentic with me, I got so
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much farther because I felt like I was working with a real person. I
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could let down my mask because they had let down theirs. And I know
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it might work now when I work with survivors, the more authentic I am,
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the deeper the connection is, the higher we can go in our work
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together. So how do you you mentor people you coach professionals in doing this?
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Now? So what are some of your go to strategies or suggestions for
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creating that authenticity, because it can be very hard when you're in the authority
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spot to be vulnerable enough to be authentic can be challenging. So how do
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you people approach that? Yeah, so a couple of things here. First
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of all, I think for me, it's important to realize that authenticity is
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going to show up and be different for each of us. Right, it's
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not one thing. Uh, You're going to show up differently authentically uh than
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I am. And then that's even going to be more layered with different people.
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Right where we're we're of different authentically with with different people. And that's
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fine when you know. When I was in graduates, fresh out of graduate
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school, not unlike a lot of people I let, I thought I needed
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to be a therapist and what what that was. And for me it was
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being really educated and knowing and having all the answers, and it just got
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in the way and I didn't realize it until I was working at a clinic
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and we were sessing and treating young kids who were showing early signs of psychosis.
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And these kids would walk in with the with a list of symptoms and
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crazy symptoms and crazy behaviors and you look at this and you go, oh
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my god. And then a week later, the actual kid would walk in
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and it would just be this kid, kid with a book in it under
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their arm. Where I stopped that, you look what is going on here?
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And meanwhile, you know, when we get into the office and we'd
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have to administer this protocol this assessment was, which was like forty pages long,
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and who the hell wants to listen to that? And at one point
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I realized I wasn't communicating with this one kid. It was just like I
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was getting these monosylebic answers and nothing was happening. And I threw the assessment
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down on the table and I just said, look, let's just stop this.
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Put this down here. And in that moment, I just kind of
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broke the whole container in a sense, and I was just like I said
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to them, I said, look, what is it that the people out
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there in the waiting room, your parents, the therapists that you've seen before,
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that you're what are they not getting that they need to hear? And
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I rule away the assessment and I just started communicating from myself, you know,
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not someone who knew all these so's. It's a lot of you know,
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understanding that we're all going through something, you know, and I think
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the as you mentioned, you know from this place of authority, it's it's
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inherent within the therapists client relationship. There's this imbalance. But it's so important,
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I think, to establish that we're all going through something, we're all
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human. You as an expert, yeah, you might have more information,
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and that's great, but how is that communicated? How are we communicating as
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a human being? That that's kind of, uh, the tip of the
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iceberg. To answer your question. Yeah, and I think I think you
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bring up such a great point. I actually I have worked with several therapists
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who were my clients and they all expressed to me like they're healing their own
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traumas. But here's my question for you, because what I hear from them,
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and this is in the past couple of years, that they're very frustrated
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with the therapeutic model, the conventional therapeutic model, and a lot of them,
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since I'm trained in the coaching model, a lot of them are shifting
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to go get trained and certified as coaches because they think that there's more of
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an opportunity for them to be who they want to be if they're in a
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coaching model versus a conventional therapy model. Are you witnessing that? What are
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your thoughts on that? Yeah, well, it's a really good question,
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and it's a tough one because the difference between you ask a therapist or ask
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a coach to describe the difference, it's very difficult. It's a very gray
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area. But there is a lot of leniency with coaches because of what you
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just mentioned. You know Eugene Jenlen who founded uh it's not tapping, but
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he was a very famous therapist, and he talks about, you know,
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if the importance of us being genuine, you know, if we had to
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be smart, or if we had to be completely educated and know all the
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answers, we couldn't do that. But we each can be ourselves and that
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that's easy, simple, But it's not easy. Why is it not easy?
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Because it means that you and I have to do our own work,
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that we have to take the time and explore what the hell we went through.
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You know, how bullying jacked me up, how my anxiety continues to
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jack me up, And not that there's anything kind of wraw with that,
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but when we get in the room. You know, as Lisa Friends said,
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if you're in the room and you're working with someone and you're dealing with
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your own stuff, at that point, you're in the wrong room. You
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need to work on that stuff before you get into that room. And a
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lot of people get into this field for great reasons, but as soon as
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you say, well, as soon as you turn the light on them and
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begin inviting them to explore their own stuff, it's like, whoa, I'm
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here to help this person. You know, I'm here to help educate and
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guide this other person. And that's really challenging for us to do. That
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is and how do you think it combines with the desire to get results?
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Because do you think also, like the desire to get results and to be
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the conduit of someone's transformation gets in the way of authenticity. Do you ever
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see that where someone's not feeling confident, I guess in their abilities or not
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getting the results that they want, and so it impairs their ability to just
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be as authentic as you were in that moment, like let's just toss the
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assessment out and like let's get real with each other. Do you see that?
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Well, I think the you know, results, that word has to
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be defined. What does it mean to get results? You know, why
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is someone going into this field in the first place, if they're going into
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coaching in the mental health space, you know, because again, a lot
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of people want to help, they want to heal, they want to fix,
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they want to prevent their client from or any other client from going through
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what they've gone through. And when in reality, as a lot of my
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amazing guests have said, you know, it's not your job to fix someone.
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It's not your job to take away their pain. And when I heard
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that, I was like, whoa, you know, it's your job,
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they would say, to be there to witness, to guide them, And
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that becomes a very different journey and a very different path. And what it
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means. It means that one has to be willing. The therapist or coach
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has to be willing to acknowledge and accept that they don't have all the answers,
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that they might not have the results when in reality being able to empower
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the client to define and find those results for themselves. Yeah, that's such
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a good point, such a good point, because I think when we step
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out of our expectations or assumptions, we can get so much more authentic with
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people because we don't have an agenda, we're just being so present in the
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now, in that moment with them. And so let's flip to the other
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side. We've been thinking about and looking at it from the professional side and
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from the survivor side, from the client side. What do you see.
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Why is it that you're so passionate about authenticity in terms of the survivor slash
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client Because I think you know, first of all, for people who've experienced
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trauma, and specifically interpersonal trauma, to be in the room with someone who
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is authentic, who is genuine, is almost the antithesis of what they've experienced
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if they've gone through earned interpersonal trauma right when they when they most often people
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who've experienced trauma of that type, their self trust has been ripped from them.
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Their ability to be vulnerable and to and to trust another person has been
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ripped from them. And the power of being in the room and and and
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being the presence of someone who not is some authority figure but is is genuine
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is so frigging inspiring and healing. Look, when you want I meet someone
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day to day and we're in the presence of someone who's just themselves. They're
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not some crazy guru, but they're they're just authentic. They're themselves, they're
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genuine, They're they're able to honor their uh history, their processes. We
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feel it it almost gives us permission to be ours that that is so healing.
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That's why it's so important to me. And it's also important to me
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because I did the exact opposite. I felt I needed to be, you
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know, some idea of this therapist and have all the answers, and you
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know, clients would come in and before they would come in, it's like,
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oh my god, this person's coming in. They have all you know,
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this, this, this, this, this symptom. I read that
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in uh pat Ogden's book. I need to go figure that out. I'm
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gonna I'm gonna take these notes. You can't do that. We're not,
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you know, so anyway, Yeah, no, it's so it's so true.
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It's so true. And I love the idea of kind of pulling apart
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you know, every we all are so passionate about the work that we do.
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So we go through our trainings and whatever certifications and you know, degrees
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and licensures, whatever path people decide to take, and then you get into
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the room and it's you have to kind of let go of all of that
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and just figure out, how do I just be a person helping this person.
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That's that's challenging to do. Because now, listen, I'm not saying
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I'm not discounting the the the benefits of education, not at all. You've
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got to be educated, but like you're saying, to a certain degree,
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you can't have your your suitcase filled with education clutch to your chest the way
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I did. It's like you've got to have it, you know, by
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your side. But the thing is, it's I think Michelle, it's it's
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challenging for a lot of people because they have spent all this time and oftentimes
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a lot of money on all this education. And you feel you need to
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lead with that, and I thought you did too, but in fact,
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I think it's really the obverse. You need to lead with yourself. And
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again I'm not saying you need to disclose everything and share intimate details about yourself,
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but you need to be able to find and connect with the person in
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front of you as a human being. Jesus Christ, we need that.
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That's what we need we do. So if you were going to say,
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you know, trauma as an industry in the past fifteen twenty years has had
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such a transformation. I mean, I'm thinking back like that in nineteen eighty
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one, at the time of my trauma, nobody was talking about trauma.
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And then when I got into recovery at the end of the nineties, nobody
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was talking about it. My therapist didn't even know what PTSD was, and
17:03
it turned out that was what I was struggling with. So then I feel
17:07
like, since maybe like two thousand and six, seven, eight, nine,
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ten, I feel like the tide turned and books started coming out and
17:18
speakers started emerging to really talk about what trauma is and PTSD and how we
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can actually heal it. It's not like this lifetime sentence. So I feel
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like if you and I look back and then the neuroscience just exploded to really
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show what was possible and what was really going on, so we could kind
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of detach and destigmatize the mystery around it all. So if you were going
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to look ahead now and say, Okay, in the next ten or fifteen
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years, what's the next evolution in trauma centered care, what would you say,
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Well, that's a tough that's a really tough question. You know.
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I think you kind of hit the nail on the head with with mentioning the
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neuroscience. I mean that is becoming much more pronounced. I mean, then
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we have the whole field of psychedelics, you know how that's going to come
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into play. I think that's becoming more and more recognize the importance of that.
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The the other part to that is the trauma in and of itself.
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It's like there from the from time immemorial, there has been trauma. You
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know. That's to me, it's going to be very interesting the fact that
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it is becoming more and more understood and recognized and talked about. I'm very
18:48
curious because of that, the role that that's going to play, uh in
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the prevalence of trauma. So that to me is very I mean, people
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are still doing awful things to people, you know, and I can't you
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know, it's it's so crazy. This this this field that we're you and
19:08
I are both in. It's horrific. And I from time to time I
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can't believe that I'm still talking about this. So, but you're not a
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therapist anymore, right, You're more like a coach to therapist. I'm not
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a therapist. I'm a podcaster who talks to incredible people and talks about these
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these topics and hopefully raises the awareness of trauma and raises the awareness of the
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importance of authenticity and cultivating that and what that means. That's what I am.
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And you also call yourself a connector, so talk about that, like,
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what does this mean in terms of what you do and what makes it
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so meaningful to you to be that? I love that phrase that. Yeah,
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you know, Michael, that's that's that's an interesting point that you bring
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up. And it took me a while to kind of honor that because I've
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had a lot of, uh, you know, failures in my life.
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I mean, I've tried to do a lot of things and and and have
20:10
failed in that. But but through that, there's always been this ability and
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love about uh connecting people and and connecting my my audience with with the guests
20:23
on my podcast, and uh, it just has to do with the love
20:30
of talking to someone and being able to hone in on their passion and why
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they're doing something. Not so much uh their work in a sense, or
20:41
their book, but how the hell they got here, How the hell did
20:47
you get through this, you know. And I love doing that, and
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I love when one of my guests starts talking and they start going off in
20:55
this tangent and I'm and I'm able to say, hang on a second,
20:59
you know, come back here. They just skip over those little, seemingly
21:04
insignificant details which happened to be bringing amazing. You know, that to me
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is important because I think a lot of us don't honor those seemingly insignificant details
21:19
that you know, are the little journeys and big journeys we all go through.
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You know, we need to hear that we're all going through these ups
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and downs. You know, it's part of our process. All right,
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let's just pause here for a second to thank our sponsors. All Right,
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we are back. So let's take that as the little tangent and tell me
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one of your seemingly insignificant journeys that brought you to this moment. Well,
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I'll tell you something. It's when I I went to I'll make this quick.
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I got out of high school, went to what was Philadelphia College of
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Art for one year, so art school dropped out, started playing music,
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stopped that, started writing fiction for like seven eight nine years, and then
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I got a phone call. So I was about thirty, I was out
22:26
of school for like eighteen years. I was writing fiction and I get a
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phone call from an old friend of mine, and she turned out she was
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calling people to tell them that she had been living with AIDS for nine years
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and didn't tell a lot of people. And here I am. I'm on
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this phone call. I was done writing for the day, sitting down,
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and the courage in this woman's voice, the resolve, the ability to be
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able to talk about what she was going through, just blew me away.
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I got off the phone and I was like, there's no way I have
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that courage. And it really made me think about where my own courage was,
23:12
where my own guts were, And in that moment, I decided to
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stop what I was doing and to find it. So I like went on
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this these these different courses. I went on this mountain climbing course, and
23:26
I went on this survival course out in the middle of the Utah desert.
23:29
And I'm not a outdoor person at all, but that in that course,
23:33
that survival course, one of these participants got really sick, and myself and
23:38
this other woman helped this guy. We dragged this guy. We encouraged this
23:44
guy, and that was a moment where I was like, I want to
23:48
help people in that type of situation, in that emergency dier situation. So
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I came back and I said to myself and going back to school, I'm
23:57
want to become a doctor. I didn't say I was going to become a
24:02
therapist. I said I was going to become a doctor. Why Because I
24:04
thought being a doctor would be the epitome. That's what I thought. And
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I went got into a program needed to finish my BA and I started doing
24:18
pre med stuff and Michelle I stocked. I could not do it. But
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what I did do is I was able to talk to my colleagues about the
24:33
shit they were going through, so much so that people would come up to
24:37
me and say, guy, you know what. I don't want to insult
24:40
you, but have you ever thought about becoming a therapist? And I was
24:42
like, And the other thing I did was I put together a whole program
24:48
to help support non traditional students who were going through the program to get into
24:55
medical school. Meanwhile I was all of these courses. But I did do
25:02
that, and I did get this crazy award for that, which was crazy,
25:07
but I didn't honor that. I didn't honor what that process was,
25:12
and that, to me was a big turning point for me because I went
25:19
I failed in part what I wanted to do, but I discovered something that
25:26
disconnector part of me that I didn't in a sense came really easy to me.
25:33
But I didn't honor it and didn't think it had any worth. Well,
25:36
isn't that the biggest sadness? How often? And nobody tells you this
25:41
when you're five, six, ten or fifteen, which I wish they would
25:45
do the thing that comes easily, because that's your path at least resistance,
25:49
which is like the most glorious path to walk. It's the path of your
25:53
most true self where you don't have to work so hard. You're just naturally
25:57
good at this thing. So what caused you to finally say, oh,
26:03
well, I'm just naturally good at this, I may as well just do
26:04
it. You know? I went through the program I got my undergraduate degree.
26:12
Medical school was not in the cards, and I said, Okay,
26:17
what can I do with this? And so I decided to pursue clinical psychology.
26:22
And it wasn't until I got through that program and got a job and
26:29
the job I was talking about were where we were assessing and treating young kids
26:33
who were showing early signs of psychosis that I saw day and in day out.
26:38
How many of those kids had experienced trauma that had gone undiagnosed by the
26:45
teachers, by the therapists, by the parents. And I was like,
26:49
you've got to be kidding me. This is crazy, and that's something something's
26:56
got to be done here. So I decided to start up podcast. And
27:00
it'd been commuting like literally an hour and a half two hours each way in
27:04
the car listening to these podcasts, usually about entrepreneurs who were just like creating
27:12
their own lives, and it was very empowering to me, and I was
27:17
I started going through Century Motorcycotherapy program and just felt I had a certain baseline
27:25
of knowledge. You know, Janina Fisher was a teacher at that point,
27:29
and I thought, wouldn't it be awesome if Janina Fisher was here in the
27:34
passenger seat and she could coach me and I could interview her. And I
27:40
never started a podcast and never interviewed anyone, And that was it, and
27:42
that's how I started. Isn't it funny? It's the thing that you had
27:48
no background, no training to do podcasting, I mean, and it's the
27:52
thing that really became the conduit for what you were meant to be doing.
27:59
Yeah, it's so beautiful, it's it's crazy, you know. And it's
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still it's still morphing for me, Michelle, you know. And really that
28:08
that that that basis is the for me to challenge myself to honor who I
28:17
am and what that means, you know. And and and it keeps opening
28:22
up, and it keeps evolving and I keep getting inspired, and that to
28:26
me is the most important thing because I I'm becoming less and less concerned about
28:33
how the perception I have of myself and more and more concerned about you know,
28:40
can I honor who the hell I am? And how can I work
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with that? How can I make a difference? Well, how do you
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answer that by just challenging myself to uh honor my my process of my story?
28:59
You know, I think a lot of us go through life and and
29:03
therapists a lot too. As if we're holding this like glass uh ball,
29:10
right, this this amazing beautiful glass ball, and if we make a mistake,
29:15
it's gonna fall out of our hands and crash or if we squeeze it
29:18
too tight, it's gonna crash, or god forbid, if we uh again
29:23
make a mistake, and when we have to toss it to someone is we're
29:27
scared to to interact with it, when in reality, for me, it's
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become more about this instead of this like beautiful glass ball, it's this like
29:36
beautiful hunk of clay, you know, and we can grab it and when
29:41
we do stumble, it's gonna get marred and it's gonna really be really cool
29:45
and we can throw it and you know that honoring that having my life be
29:49
more about that, and it's to me there's a lot of power in that
29:55
and empowerment. But it's not always easy. It's not easy, you know,
29:59
because I realize I am putting myself out there to a certain degree,
30:03
well to to a large degree, but I want to be inspired to create
30:08
a platform where we are genuine and we are authentic and uh with the realization
30:17
that that's going to be different for all of us. What that looks like,
30:22
that's so true, so true. So I know we're limited on our
30:26
time here, So I just have a couple of questions and then I'll let
30:29
you go with the caveat that you know I might last. So you again,
30:33
so hard one you have you have just I just I love your vision
30:38
and I love your dedication. So if you were going to offer like how
30:47
to kind of process like I don't know, in like three steps or something,
30:55
I'm circling back now to the beginning of our conversation. If there is
30:59
if there's a trauma therapist who's listening and really wants to be more authentic,
31:03
but just doesn't you know, it's kind of like the theater. You know,
31:07
there's that fourth wall and we're trained. I'm saying we, but I'm
31:11
not really part of the conventional community. But I imagine you all are trained
31:15
not to break it because I have friends who were therapists, and you know
31:21
they're they're very clear on they're not supposed to talk about themselves and that kind
31:25
of stuff. So if you were going to share some ideas about how to
31:32
break that fourth wall with your client, how to cross that bridge into being
31:37
more authentic and being comfortable with it, because those are two different things.
31:41
You can tell someone how to do it, but that doesn't mean they're comfortable
31:45
with it. So what have you discovered that leads to that comfortability in that
31:52
authentic space, and how recommend other people start to develop that? Yeah,
31:59
and I think, right, that's that's that's an excellent question. I think
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it's going to be different for different people. You know, not everyone is
32:05
going to be comfortable sharing information about themselves, and I think that's something that
32:12
one needs to listen to. And again, it's very important, I think
32:15
for people to hear that this is going to be different for each person and
32:19
with each client. Right, we have different family members that we have different
32:22
relationships with, et cetera, et cetera. But I think one thing is
32:28
to understand is to have the understanding that the person sitting across from you doesn't
32:34
want a modality, They don't want a treatment. They want to freakin human
32:38
being. Yes, they want to be helped, but they want a human
32:43
being. And it's about understanding what you are comfortable with sharing, What you
32:52
are comfortable with, what element, what bit, what snippet you are comfortable
32:58
with sharing the with the person in front of you in that moment, Right,
33:02
It's about being in the moment and understanding that this is not for you
33:08
to prove that you're some genuine therapist, but it's about being able to connect
33:13
with uh, the person sitting in front of you, and it's going to
33:16
be different for each person, but go ahead, sorry, Well I would
33:22
imagine And when you're saying that that it doesn't mean you have to reveal yourself
33:25
so much as you just have to find a way to connect with them to
33:30
use the ord that you just you have to be present. So authenticity,
33:37
what's the what's the the hub of authenticity sharing and revealing yourself or is it
33:44
being present in the moment? Well, it's it's it's it's your ability to
33:50
be present will allow you and help you and determine how you can be authentic.
33:57
And I think authenticity means being able to respond in the moment with yourself,
34:02
with your being. Doesn't mean sharing intimate details about myself, but it
34:07
might mean saying, Jesus, how did you go through? It might be
34:14
the way you emote. It might be crying, It might be saying Jesus.
34:22
Maybe other people wouldn't do that, or maybe you feel like you shouldn't
34:25
do that because that's not going to be very therapy. You know, it
34:29
means being a human being in the moment, And of course there are some
34:37
guidelines with that because you are in a professional relationship, but that shouldn't for
34:43
me. It's about being a human being because we're going to connect with that.
34:49
I think that's gorgeous and I think that's a great place to land,
34:52
you know, being a human being in the moment. Is there any better
34:57
description of how to help somebody? Right? You know, therapeutically or otherwise,
35:02
but definitely you know therapeutically. So guy, thank you so much for
35:07
so authentically sharing yourself with me and your audience and letting us get to see
35:13
you. You're always the man behind the mic, but it's nice to know
35:15
the thoughts behind the man behind the mic. So thank you so much.
35:20
And if people wanted to reach out to you or learn how to connect with
35:24
you further, where would they do that? Just through the Trauma There's podcast
35:29
website or the Trauma Therist Project website. They can do that. And how
35:32
about for you, how would people going to well, I'm here also on
35:36
Twitter because I'm on Twitter and Instagram and TikTok. Yeah they can, they
35:40
can access that to my website. But how about for you about well,
35:45
I'm Michelle Rosenthal, trauma recovery specialist, and you can find me also on
35:50
Twitter and at my website at mytraumacoach dot com. So, guy, thank
35:54
you so much for letting me come and take over and really be able to
35:59
shine the line on you, because I have so much respect for you and
36:01
such appreciation not just for your mission, which is enormous and wonderful, and
36:08
not just for the platform that you've created, but for the authenticity with which
36:13
you do it. So thank you. Have a good night, a good
36:15
day wherever you are in the world. Enjoy Thanks so much, Michelle, thank you