Latest / Doug Reads With Friends / Ep 6: Good Clay, Great Bosses & This American Woman (with Hazel Raja)

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Ep 6: Good Clay, Great Bosses & This American Woman (with Hazel Raja) · Doug Reads With Friends

• Doug Cutchins: Well, that was a lot of fun. I hope you enjoyed listening. I hope Hazel enjoyed recording that with me. You know, ⁓ I started this podcast project with a goals in mind. The number one thing for me was just to get to reconnect with ⁓ really wonderful friends that I haven't had a to talk to in a long time ⁓ and to get to read some books that otherwise might not pick up. And Hello friends and welcome back to Doug Reads with Friends. I'm Doug. This is my podcast. And on this podcast, I invite some of my really wonderful, incredible, amazing friends from around the world to come on and have a conversation about their life, about our friendship, and importantly, about a book that they've chosen. We both read that book in advance of recording the podcast and then have a conversation in part about that book. how do think about and being a supervisor with being a friend? Hazel Raja: I that in Abu Dhabi in particular, it was really important to build a relationship with your team and individuals on the team because there so much at stake ⁓ ⁓ in sense of like ⁓ possibly losing, staff, ⁓ when you're bringing people over, you are a relationship with them in order for them to want to come and then want to stay. Doug Cutchins: This has absolutely fulfilled both of those desires for me. I am having so much fun reconnecting with my friends, talking with people, getting caught up with people and reading books like this one that I never would have picked up otherwise, but I'm really glad that I got a chance to read. So thank you again to Hazel for making the time, for saying yes to this and for choosing a really, really great book. But the book is also in many ways, just an excuse for us to have a conversation about our lives and our friendship today's podcast. We have Hazel Raja. I have known Hazel since 2013 when she first interviewed me to work at NYU Abu Dhabi, where she was then the director of the career development center. ⁓ For the next episode in early April, I will be talking with Dr. Lana Mahgoub Lana is member ⁓ of the Posse that ⁓ I mentored when I worked Grinnell College. Hazel Raja: As you know, in Abu Dhabi, you don't just do your job. You do a lot of jobs. You spend a lot of time with off campus, on campus, evenings, ⁓ all sorts of different events. And so you want to know that you're going to want to spend time with these people that you're bringing abroad to the UAE to work. And then Doug Cutchins: We got to work together for about six years before she left to go back to the United States. You'll hear us talk about our friendship, about what it's like to be friends with your boss, her work in career development, my friendship with her husband, Jay, ⁓ then about the book that she chose, the book that you can see here over my shoulder, ⁓ American Woman by the comedian Zarna Garg. You may not be familiar with the Posse Foundation, but it is one of my favorite organizations on the planet. Brought 10 of my absolute favorite people on the planet into my life. and I'm eventually going to have all 10 of them on. So Lana will be the first of those 10. She has chosen a novel. Hazel Raja: As you start to get to know people, I've always enjoyed getting to know individuals on my team, just because I feel like I can manage expectations, performance, projects a lot better when I know what their strengths are and kind of what they're navigating as individuals. Doug Cutchins: ⁓ A very funny book, a book that we had a lot of thoughts about, including about how we think about that book in terms of career development and impact that it had on each of us reading it, Hazel as an Indian American woman and myself as a white man ⁓ and various perspectives we brought to that. ⁓ I that you'll enjoy our conversation of This American Woman Zarna Garg. And how do you think about that now that you're back in California? Does that change your perspective? Hazel Raja: when I first came back to California, I expected the same kind of relationship with people. And what I realized, what I received was people wanting that because their, their boundaries were different. And so, or their expectations or their experiences with, you know, previous bosses may not have allowed for that relationship building. And so. Doug Cutchins: called Culpability by Bruce Holsinger. It's a terrific novel. It's a very quick It is compelling, very interesting, lots of secrets to be discovered in this book. ⁓ I hope that you'll consider picking up a copy of Culpability. Hazel Raja: I think now I've gotten to the point where people are trusting, But in the very beginning, there was definitely a wall there was definitely, you know, this feeling of like, why does she want to know so much about me? why does she keep asking me how I'm doing? Like, why does she want to know who I am? Doug Cutchins: and reading it in the next few weeks and then listening to that podcast when it comes out early April. Music Doug Reads Friends from my friend Eiren Please give her music a listen on Spotify and support her and thank you as always to Eiren for letting me use her If you have any thoughts feedback or comments, or just want to get in touch to discuss Doug reads with friends, you can always send me an email at dougreadswithfriends@gmail.com I will read all of your messages ⁓ and look for Doug reads friends on social media. If you are enjoying listening to this, consider commenting on it ⁓ or ⁓ sharing it with a friend. Great thing to do would be to get inspired by podcast reach out to your own friends. Maybe read a book with them. you so much for listening to Doug Reads with Friends. Thank you for being my friend. Hazel Raja: I think it's funny because I've ⁓ expected as much of staff members in the ways ⁓ that I had kind of developed those relationships in Abu Dhabi. But I also think it's just Abu Dhabi was a different environment. We spent much time with each other. Doug Cutchins: Have a great day. See you in a couple of weeks. Hazel Raja: I mean, the fact that you know Jay, right? Like, I mean, it's, and you hung out with Jay and ⁓ actually to me, he was like, can you ask ⁓ if how formula what, you know, I want to talk to him too. And I was like, ⁓ you know what? You'll have your own time. But like right now we're not doing formula one. ⁓ You, and Natasha to go upstairs. Doug Cutchins: Absolutely. think a little bit whether friendship between boss and a is a good thing, it's a bad thing, I'm gonna have to say, I think it's probably a little bit of a mixture of everything. ⁓ I think it did allow us to be really, really honest with one another. extend to what's going on. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Doug Cutchins: outside of work, which always then impacts work as well and how you show up at work. mean, you saw me through a divorce, ⁓ difficult times of ⁓ being a single father supporting me through that. then there were also, mean, you know, ⁓ there was a moment I think both remember we had a big disagreement, we were yelling at each other in your office. Hazel Raja: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep. Yep, yep, yep. Doug Cutchins: ⁓ you know, and I look back on that now. think we were probably both wrong in that situation. Hazel Raja: Oh, for sure. I mean, I I think that sometimes when when that meshing of friendship becomes challenging because it's like, okay, you walk out of the office and then you're like, hey, okay, so what are you having for dinner tonight? know, like, ⁓ and it's, and I think that that's harder when you are friends with people that you work with because it feels more personal. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Hazel Raja: like Garvin had a baby and celebrating afar and ⁓ just excited for him and Melody and the season in life that they're in. And I just think to myself, like, I know if I've ever had a boss. I mean, I actually, I have, I've had bosses that have cared about me that deeply, but I haven't had a lot of bosses that have cared for me that deeply where they care so much that like they want to know when I have a kid or, you know, that kind of stuff. I think that makes all the difference after, after, yeah, like when I'm not working with them anymore, like that they would stay in touch and want to know and celebrate all the things that, I'm still going through in life. Doug Cutchins: Afterwards like years afterwards. Yeah Right Yeah. What do you think makes a good boss? Like what, what do you, well, let me ask it more specifically. do you think makes you a good boss? What are your kind of or personality types or things that you do that you think? I mean, I think you're really, really good at, at, at being a supervisor. It's like how. Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Wow. I just did this personality, like ⁓ a personality test. And one of the things that came up as a, version of weakness was that I will make decisions based on the individual ⁓ and the situation. I'm not, I don't have a flat response, which surprised me because I was like, ⁓ I thought I pretty consistent, but I guess I'm not. And I was rethinking it a little bit and I was like, you know, it's because I do have a relational approach to people I don't just see the situation at hand. see the whole package and therefore I make a decision based on that whole package and not just that situation. And I think that actually works really well. Doug Cutchins: Where did you learn to do this? Did you have great bosses yourself or how did you get to where you are today? Hazel Raja: I think I've learned from what's not happened to be honest with you, I've definitely had some good bosses, but I think that it's more about what I wish people would have thought through with me. what I'm employing with my, my supervisory is like, okay, you know what? Like if they just, if they're just, judging me or evaluating me based on X and not recognizing all the stuff that I carry, sucks, really. It kind of sucks that they're not recognizing all that I'm navigating. so I've of always of kept that in the back of my head. It's just trying to feel, ⁓ see the whole individual and just the person or their kind of title or their portfolio. Doug Cutchins: Do you do that when you're relating to your bosses as well? Do you try to create friendships with the people who supervise you? Hazel Raja: I kind of feel it out. ⁓ depends on the energy that they're giving off, to be honest with you. in Dhabi, because we spent so much time with each other, there were definitely blurred lines where I felt like, I remember one boss asking, you know, why don't we go on vacation together? And I was like, what? ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Maybe a step too far. Hazel Raja: no, you know, like we can go on a work trip together, but I'm not going on vacation with That all being said, there are individuals in my life that I consider my mentors who were my boss and are people that I still lean on banter and like, you know, very much part of each other's lives. And it's not just the work, obviously, because I don't work for them anymore. I mean, I have a boss now I can be very playful with them our during our one on ones. But literally, like ⁓ once I walk out that door, like I have nothing to do with them until my next one on one, which wild to me. ⁓ But but it's something I've gotten used to. Doug Cutchins: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about the work that you do. do you love career development work? Hazel Raja: I love career development because I feel like there's a journey that students go on ⁓ they're in such a pivotal point in their lives, college students that to help them from this state of, ⁓ no idea what I want to do. ⁓ that's what I actually appreciate about liberal art students as well is the fact that there's such a breadth of opportunity there, but ⁓ there's not clear pathway. And for some students, that's a real struggle and then real kind of. sticking point. And so to help them from that real kind of messy stickiness the unknown ⁓ a place where there's confidence and real kind of connection and real excitement for what comes next is arc that I love to be part of. working with age students when they're on journey, And we've talked about this before and I actually have for you something that you shared with me when you first, I think you interviewed and you said this, good clay. Students being good clay, And NYU has really good clay. NYU Abu Dhabi has really good clay and Pomona College has really good clay. when you work with students who are just so amenable and like willing and open, you know, just there's a really good strong starting point. It makes the job so much more joyful. Doug Cutchins: one ⁓ I think be a challenge people in your position as the head of the Career Development Center is ⁓ that you get this as you said, I want to work with the clay. I want to get in there. I want to get my hands dirty. I want to mold. I want to shape. I want to create. Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: And then you end up as the head of the Career Development Center and you're thinking about budget and you're thinking about personnel management and you're thinking about hiring and you're thinking about strategy and you're thinking about working with the vice president that you work for and you don't actually get to talk with students that much. Is that what you're discovering as well and how do you feel about that? Hazel Raja: Yeah. Yeah. a very easy slope to fall down in the sense not having any student contact. So I'm the main point of contact for the International Student's Office. And therefore I have, all the international students largely coming to me for advice and guidance. And especially right now, there's just so much that they are navigating. And so I get a lot of student contact because of that, but I've had to really ensure that that's something I hold onto. there are days, there are weeks where I'm like, I don't have time for this. I have to get the budget in, I have to do this, I got performance reviews, I've got whatever, but I never regret it. I never regret that time that I've been able to spend with students. It actually reminds me of why I'm there and what the budget is for, we have a program in place, why am I asking this donor for money? It's for these students. And so ⁓ having that student it really me to kind of ensure that I'm talking about things that I know about and not just what I think people need kind of thing. Doug Cutchins: know Pomona as a phenomenally great small liberal arts college, a top five small liberal arts college. If you asked me who are the students who go to Pomona, what do we call Pomona students? Pomonites, Pomoners, Pomonans? Sagehens, okay. wasn't gonna come up with that one. If I were to ask you to define what makes a Sagehen or what makes a student at Pomona different than ⁓ students Hazel Raja: Sage hens! Sage hens Doug Cutchins: Amherst or Williams or even Pitzer or Claremont. how do you define a Pomona student? How do you define the sage hen? Hazel Raja: I would say that what makes Pomona students different this real desire and appreciation for the liberal arts. So ⁓ they're kind of real to ways to connect their interests together, whether it's art history and. economics you know, neuroscience and Africana studies. Like just their ⁓ willingness and and desire to pull things together to make them work. they're kind of, ⁓ enterprising ability to do so is, is something that, ⁓ can't be, disregarded. would also say that when you're at a small selective liberal arts college that you have a bunch of leaders on your hands. The number of times that I pick up a resume and I look at the resume and I'm like, how is it possible that this 18 year old who just started college had done all of this? They're just so impressive. They're all leaders in their own ways. it's just wild how things that they've been involved in. Doug Cutchins: Do you miss living abroad? Do you miss living in Abu Dhabi specifically? Hazel Raja: I do, I do. Every so often I'm like, why did we come back down here? now. ⁓ Especially right now. ⁓ my gosh. Especially right now. I do. I miss, there's something mundane about living in, so I live in Los Angeles County, but I live in the suburbs of the suburbs in LA. And it feels very monotonous at times. You you do the same 13 minute drive each direction. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Especially at this, especially this given political moment, right? Hazel Raja: You drop off the kid, you get to campus, you park, you know, it's hamster wheel situation where you're literally just doing things every single day in the same manner. And there's ⁓ not a lot, I you the thought of traveling, it's just such a pain to get anywhere from the ⁓ West the idea of doing a weekend getaway here, I could want to go to Vegas. You want to go to San Francisco? You know, do you want to go? Because the amount of effort that it takes to get anywhere is just ridiculous. And I miss that. I miss ⁓ in Abu Dhabi being able to say, let's go to Rome. Let's go to Sri Lanka. let's go out for a nice meal and it'd be a nice meal and not just kind of like chilies. just being able to experience. the breadth of opportunities that exist. And you could go to the Louvre, it's like down the street from campus to Ferrari World to, know, it's ⁓ there's so much, so much there. Doug Cutchins: Do you see yourself going abroad again in the future or with family do you see yourself probably staying in the US? Hazel Raja: think I came back at the right time in my kind of external family's life. I have aging parents or one of them has since passed, but, just being able to be close by was something that you know, I will never regret. And, you know, I think part of it is also like having my child have what I consider a normal childhood, know, like big community sports, like piano, things that just don't feel like it's ⁓ ⁓ experience. It's like, you know, dirty grass, muddy you know, kind of thing. Not Emirates Palace grass. I think that is something that I really wanted to create for my child. ⁓ yeah, so she's thriving that. But my, and I often talked about, talk about like, ⁓ you know, we should look here or should look there. And we went to Australia last winter break and fell in such a deep love for Australia. I immediately was like, I need to look up jobs in Australia. Cause ⁓ somewhere I would totally go. And even Natasha was like, yeah, let's go. I'm I'm ready to, I'm ready to pack my bags. So I think that there is definitely a stint or two left in us. I think it has to be the right stint. Doug Cutchins: How old is Natasha now? Hazel Raja: She's gonna be nine next month. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Cutchins: Nine. Okay. Enormous. How has, I saw you becoming a mom and she was a few years, she was about three years old when you left Abu Dhabi then. So how has becoming a mom and then being a mom for the last nine years changed how you approach your job, your work, how you think about work? Hazel Raja: Yeah. Correct. I definitely prioritize my, the work life balance a lot better than I did previously. ⁓ it kind of being a mom forces you to do that just in the sense of like, know, has at school for nine hours. I don't want her to be there anymore. And so I'm going to pick her up and sometimes I get three 30, like when she typically gets out of school, I'll just. go there, pick her up and bring her back to my office just because I want her to have just time with me. And I think part of it is just this realization of like, ⁓ wear just like my team. I have many hats and I have a whole invisible backpack of things and people that I. I take care of. And so for me, she allowed me really recalibrate my idea of work-life balance and really embrace it in a way that ⁓ creates kind space for me to just switch off. You know, I don't, ⁓ I get and I don't look at my phone. Around eight o'clock when she goes to bed, I kind of check again, ⁓ but from like 5.30 until about eight, like like, I'm not looking at anything, I'm looking at the recipe for something. Doug Cutchins: for you. I have said a bunch of times, I am so glad that I did not have to parent in the age of cell phones, not because of my kids, but because of me. Because especially when there's little, there's so much time when they're like on a playground, And you're just sitting on the side watching them. And as a with kids before in the pre, you iPhone era, you just got to sit there and watch them. ⁓ And Hazel Raja: you Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: There's great value in that, but it's also stupid levels of boring. And, I would a ⁓ percent have been in my phone and not paying ⁓ attention to my children when they were climbing around the playground. And that would have been bad. I'm glad I didn't have that choice because I absolutely would have made that choice. and really, really happy that instead I was forced to ⁓ be and engage. Hazel Raja: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: and wait for those magical moments that do happen, those serendipitous moments that do happen with them, ⁓ than ⁓ at something stupid on my phone that's absolutely worthless. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Well, we talk about that all the time because, you know, we go to soccer games. My daughter, plays soccer the number of parents that are sitting on the sidelines with their phones like in their face. And so often Natasha will look up at me, ⁓ like be playing or she'll make a move or whatever it is. And she'll look at me and I'm watching her. And ⁓ like, feel like there's this connection of like, my mom is watching me. She's not just on her phone. I'm not saying that I don't always have my phone, I'm for sure. Hands on heart. I definitely have my phone out sometimes because it's boring. It's stupid boring. I will watch her, she's going to want my attention for a few more years at this point. She's nine. She's already like, ⁓ ugh, I don't want to wear that or whatever it is. And so I already feel like... Doug Cutchins: Sure. Hazel Raja: Time is not on my side with this. And so as much as I can be present with her, ⁓ trying to because I know, and I only have one. Doug Cutchins: Yeah, it's the the craziest part of having kids is like ⁓ so deep in your life and then they grow up and they move out. ⁓ Like now with two daughters who are, you ones out of college, ones in junior in college, ⁓ that they don't, I mean, it's inconceivable when they're nine years old that they're not going to live with you someday, right? Like that they're going to go away. They're going to have their own lives, but they actually do. Hazel Raja: I know. Yeah. Right, right, right. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: And you can't say, you have to savor every moment and you have to, love every moment. Cause there's parts of it, ⁓ as both just said, that are ⁓ crazy of boring or annoying or frustrating or whatever negative you want to associate with it. But then, then they're gone. gone. ⁓ And it's not, parenting ⁓ adults ⁓ is. Hazel Raja: Yeah, yeah, they're gone. Doug Cutchins: very different and you they're what they need and the amount of time it takes is very very different it has its own great pleasure to me getting to know my children as as adults developing actual friendships with them doing cool and interesting things hearing their opinions on the world watching them make adult decisions its own level of fascinating but it's completely different than ⁓ you're going through now. Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I know. Well, how old was Beatrice when she first moved to Abu Dhabi? Doug Cutchins: Beatrice was 10 and Emma was 12 when they first moved here. Right, so Natasha is now almost the age. I hadn't put that together. Yeah, that's fun. Hazel Raja: Yeah, yeah. So yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Cutchins: Well, let's start talking about where this is ostensibly a book podcast. ⁓ So let's let's talk a little bit about book that you chose and we both read. Tell us a little bit about what book you chose and why you chose it. Hazel Raja: Yeah, yeah. Sure. I chose This American Woman by Zarna Garg. I chose this book because had seen her Netflix special and I found her to be very funny. She is from the same part of India that my family comes from. And so... some of the things that she, well, when she performed on this kind Netflix special, I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm kind of blown away by how open she is, because that's not typical of Gujarati women. And so I wanted to get to know her a little bit more. And so that's why. I picked it and I was also thinking to myself, I'm not gonna lie. was like, Doug's dating an Indian woman. He probably needs to know a little bit more about Indian women and where they come from. And no offense to the fact that you've been with Anjana for a very long time now, but in my mind I was like, he still probably needs to know more stuff. so I was like, this could be helpful. This could be a little bit of a helpful tool for him too. And so. Doug Cutchins: There's always more to know, absolutely. Hazel Raja: COVID, she kind blew up then. And I think it's because of my algorithm, she kept popping up on my feeds. And so started to kind of watch her and she always kind of made me laugh. she said things that I was like, wow, she's pretty cool. She says really cool things. And so her book was really insightful. Doug Cutchins: so how would you this book? And like if you're going to write the blurb for the book, right? Or you're going to give somebody few sentences or paragraph on what this book is. How do you describe it? Hazel Raja: Zarna Garg is a comedian memoir is A lot about life, ⁓ her childhood, kind of how she came to the United how she fell in love, she met her partner and like raising kids. So it's a little bit of a lot of ⁓ topics were covered in this autobiography, but. it helps us understand how she doors ⁓ for herself to become the comedian that she is. she's like award-winning, she's hilarious, she's got this Netflix special, she credits Kevin Hart in kind of that journey that she went on. Yeah, so she's definitely hilarious. Doug Cutchins: who do you think the audience for this book is? ⁓ I was trying to think about a bit as I was reading, like, who do you think she had in as she was writing? Hazel Raja: Yeah. I think it might be someone like me actually, in the sense of like, Especially Indian people, and I'm generalizing here, a comedian is not necessarily a path that people would ever say, you should be a comedian because you're so funny. Like, it's like, you're funny, but find a real job kind of thing. And so I think there's a little bit of judginess behind all that. And so I, for myself, like, I was curious to know kind of how did she get into this? You know, how did she, how is she so funny? Like what, what happened? And it's really, it's interesting that so many comedians have had such a dark childhood or dark past. And I knew that in the back of my head. So was like, I wonder so hard about her life. And so I was curious. Doug Cutchins: to there a lot of translating back and forth, right? Cause you can see that there's ⁓ obviously ⁓ she lives in U S her work is in the U S she talks at the very end of the book about going to India a show in India for the first time and how scared she was to go to India, but that she also clearly has massive following in India as well. And I felt like a lot of the book was translating. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Cutchins: India for Americans and America for Indians. finding the humor at the intersection of the two. one of the parts that made me laugh the most was when she was talking about, and we can talk about this from a, I want to hear your thoughts on it from a career development perspective as well, but she was talking about kind of, okay, American kids, go find your passion, go find your thing. Meanwhile, Indian kids are going to be over here running the world. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: Right? Like go figure out your new hamster wheel. Go figure out your new, like go be an artist. That's fine. Indian kids are going to do math and be CEOs. Which I was just a great way to be thinking about ⁓ the of what success means how Indians versus Americans ⁓ can think of things. So ⁓ how did that with you as someone who is Indian American? ⁓ Hazel Raja: ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Doug Cutchins: and thinks about career development all the time. Hazel Raja: I found humor in that cause I was like, yeah, I could just, ⁓ I can envision people in community saying something that, right? Like it's just such a realistic I think for me, what I think is really interesting is she doesn't hide behind some of her own feelings about, you know, what success looks like. So. she talked about kind of ⁓ getting her kids into the schools and, you know, making sure they did all the things to be able to get into the right schools and to get, to be noticed and I think there's a point in which, she's a lawyer, she's done these great things. she's accomplished herself. ⁓ And yet I feel like there was still an expectation of. Regardless of the fact that she is a comedian, she's a really, really good and award-winning comedian doing amazing things. There is still this feeling of like, but my kids have to go into law or ⁓ or engineering. You know, even though she has carved her own path, she still wants to create this space for them to go through to the traditional places that Indian kids channeled towards. And as a career advisor, know, I find, I'm going to be honest, I find myself in that same dilemma of saying other kids, you should pursue what you love, think about your skills, think about your interests, think about your values. And then with my own kid, I'm like, you know, she's nine. But like, I'm like, why did you get a 97 on your math test? Why did you get Doug Cutchins: What happened to the other 3 %? Hazel Raja: What, what, what, what, what went wrong here? Like, you know how to do this. What are we doing here? Like, what, you know, do we need to do drills? Like what's going on? You know, I know like, So I find myself sometimes between I just want her to love education. I want her to love to learn. And then I'm also like, what was your test? How did you get doing your test? Doug Cutchins: I guess we gotta get a tutor for the other 3%. What did you like about this book? Hazel Raja: I thought was funny. So she ⁓ had like these funny quips throughout story, which I thought was like really funny. ⁓ Even like the parts that were kind of dark, right? Like where she would talk about being homeless ⁓ and moving from one house to the next just the hurt that that must have felt, ⁓ especially coming from ⁓ that kind of house came from hearing her brother's wife say things like she's eating us out of house and home. But she would find ways to kind of say something funny, you know, in ⁓ those moments too. And it a perfect combination of wow, she's so much, ⁓ but also making me giggle little Like there's a part of the book where she talks about coming to the United States and how cold it was in Ohio and the winter time. and I, realization of like the fact that she had left everything. She left everything. She was coming to the United States and like, yes, it was really, really cold, but she was all this without any, without anything really. Or she said, she said something like, $8 in my pocket, but 10,000 in my bank account. I left my country with $8 in my pocket and 10,000 in my bank account. So she finds funny ways to, she finds ways to make it funny, but like. the realization of what she was going through is pretty deep. Doug Cutchins: she a long time to find her path, right? As you said, she she went to law school. She says she tried different businesses. ⁓ Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: So, ⁓ as a career development professional, when you look at her career, what are the lessons that you take away from ⁓ what made her or how she got where she is? Hazel Raja: I think she's always been very driven, she's always found ways to like make things right? Whether she was bumping around people's houses in Mumbai moving to ⁓ the U.S., you know, out ways to stay in the country by pursuing graduate education, law school. I think that that, just hunger and that drive, and I think those pieces allowed for her to pivot. in the ways that she has. Like, I was kind of surprised that she took the back seat when her husband wasn't doing an MBA program. And even though she dabbling in his study and whatnot, I felt like surprised me that she, she wasn't allowed to work and and I get that, but I was surprised that she didn't because Indian people don't let rules like that stop them. And so that part kind of surprised me a little bit. And ⁓ of the things I would say is if I didn't know she was a comedian, I didn't see it coming throughout her lifeline. So she funny. Like again, she was throughout, but like at what point did somebody say you should be a comedian? ⁓ And ⁓ she said, yeah, I should. Doug Cutchins: That's a really good point. Hazel Raja: I don't know if she talked about that. ⁓ She did. It wasn't, wasn't in depth because I. Doug Cutchins: She talked a little bit about her kids encouraging her and kind of she says, you know, I had a loud mouth, you know, I always had ideas. I always wanted to say things. I always had, you know, a pleasure, an idea of needing to give people something. She talks about when she was homeless growing up, ⁓ after her father kicks her out, she leaves when she's 14 years old to escape an arranged marriage. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: that she always discovers, okay, I need to give people things. And then she talks about, I thought very movingly, how she's up on stage, what she gives to an audience, but then also what she gets from an audience of the acceptance. But you're right, that's a really good point that I had not thought But ⁓ if you didn't that this story ends with her being ⁓ an incredibly successful and like on a rocket ship to success, comedian, right? I mean, she starts going to open mics and within Hazel Raja: Yeah. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: 10 months, she has an hour long headlining opportunity, which like, think most people that takes five years, 10 years to have that type of success. ⁓ and so, and during COVID, right. Hazel Raja: I Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And during COVID, right? And it was during COVID, yeah. When things are not, you know, the opportunities are much more restricted. and maybe this was of her life, like she made people And so she knew she was quite funny. And so that led to her boring into this. I just, that was one piece out. I thought was missing, I I have heard a little bit more about how her ⁓ humor was kind of appreciated and recognized throughout her life. Doug Cutchins: Yeah. wonder how we received this book differently ⁓ an Indian American ⁓ and as a white guy. How do we start to explore that? How did you receive this ⁓ an Indian American woman? How did it resonate with you? Hazel Raja: Yeah. ⁓ I loved it. I really, really loved ⁓ her openness. think she said some things, she made some comments about things that I totally just got, right? Like I was like, ⁓ yeah, totally understand that. Like, ⁓ so yeah, so when she was getting married ⁓ her mother-in-law was like, well, she was wearing glasses. was like, ⁓ my gosh, she wears glasses on top of everything else. ⁓ Doug Cutchins: Is there an example of that that you remember? Hazel Raja: And I was like, ⁓ yeah, could see that. I could see a mother or a grandmother or mother-in-law saying something like that. But I remember there was a situation, one of my brother getting married. ⁓ I must have been 21 years old and I used to surf. And so before my mom left, because the wedding was in Canada, before my mom left for get ready for this wedding, so she went three weeks before and she's like, no more surfing for you. And I was like, why? And she was like, you're getting too dark. And I said, ⁓ come on, mom, you know? So she goes, of course I continue surfing. And then I get to Toronto for this wedding and my mom, like, as soon as she saw me, she was like, my God, we need to get like bleaching cream all over you. ⁓ I was too dark. And she was like, you have, you, I told you not to go in the water. I told you not to be in the sun. And she literally was like trying to like scrub the brown off of me. And, There are situations of arranged marriage piece, like was like, there's expectations when you get to a certain age that people, and there's like, people will start to notice, oh, she's 18 years old now. She's almost of marital age. should, you know, she should be seeing more. And that's very kind of common within the Indian culture. and so ⁓ lot of it was familiar to me. Doug Cutchins: me, I think ⁓ I it certainly as white American guy, but as you talked about at the beginning of this ⁓ book conversation, as someone is in love with ⁓ and ⁓ with will be married to an Indian woman and ⁓ not American, Indian from India, lives in India, proudly Indian woman. Hazel Raja: Yeah. Doug Cutchins: And there were parts where I would that that section that I alluded to earlier about education, for example, that I would go down and say, does this resonate with you? Like, is she exaggerating here? Does this resonate with you? And she's like, oh, no, 100 % that resonates with And that, you know, she hears me talk about my work in career development and advising students and that I'm giving a very kind of Oprah song of your soul. Listen to your bliss. Hazel Raja: Yeah, yeah. Thank Doug Cutchins: follow your inner voice. And she's like, you know, kids got to get money. They got to, they got to work. They got to get jobs. No wonder they're all majoring in econ and computer science. we do see those differences. And then I think anytime that you get an insight into someone else's life, you get to spend some time in their world and understand where they've come from. And for me also, the theme of gratitude, to me, one of the biggest themes in the entire book is just from start to finish. The acknowledgements are like 10 pages. Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Doug Cutchins: where she goes on and on and on at the end about how much gratitude she feels towards other people in her life gratitude towards the United States as well and the opportunities that she had. She leads a very different life if she does not escape marriage to the ⁓ king glass Mumbai, right? Which is ⁓ one of the her life might've been heading down. Hazel Raja: I know. I know. know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I know, yeah, yeah, that's the reality. I I think that like you have to be defiant in order to achieve success, I think ⁓ for women in India, you can't just go with what people of you. And I think that's the hard part, right? Like why do women in India have to be order to be successful? And I think that if she wasn't, like if she didn't have all this worldwide success right now, I think that there would probably be like, well, it's because she didn't marry the guy from the glass company. You know, like kind of me wondering whether or some of it was exaggerated too, because I'm like, this is insane. I know it happens, but it so unreal. It felt like, how could ⁓ father, like completely, well, the father just completely dismissing existence, ⁓ and even just after her mom died, but even before her mom died. It was like he didn't care for her at all. Doug Cutchins: What, are there specific? the thing with the father that really surprised me is that the book is dedicated to him. Right? mean, you, ⁓ the very beginning of it is to my father who taught me English, the language of success. And much the book is about escaping her father and escaping his plan for her. And then ⁓ maybe seeing at some weddings, but never reconciling with him before he passes. Hazel Raja: ⁓ I didn't notice that. I didn't even notice that. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Doug Cutchins: And yet I think towards the end then also this feeling of gratitude towards him for pushing her to become who she became. And it's very relationship that I'm not sure that she ended up working through completely in the book. Hazel Raja: had not seen that she dedicated it to her also maybe it's kind of like an, kind of like an F you ⁓ do this without, right? Without your support. ⁓ So yeah, yeah. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: That's a very good point. Yeah. You taught me English, but that's it dad. And now look at where I am. No, that's, that's really interesting. Let's talk about you as a reader. Just, just a little bit. ⁓ reading a big part of your life? Hazel Raja: It used to be, it used be something that I like escaped through. just had, and now I have a nine year old, I do a lot of audio books. know, I had bought the book, but then I was like, who am I kidding? I'm not going to carry that around. so I ended up audio booking and then I kind of went through most of the book through the audio Doug Cutchins: And now you have a nine year old. Hazel Raja: So the type of reader I am, so it's whatever catches my eye. So like now made a reference to the fact Kevin Hart had that kind of a life too. And I love Kevin Hart. He makes me laugh my belly. So now I'm like, oh, he has a book. it's like one of the things that I want to, get onto next, but I do a lot a little bit of self-help stuff. do a little bit of, I laughed because like the last book I audio was Britney Spears' ⁓ autobiography. So clearly like ⁓ celebrities books and learning about their lives, maybe sociology major in me that wants to know a little bit more about people and their upbringings. But have a little bit of an eclectic taste in books. Doug Cutchins: Yeah. so it sounds like you do a lot with audio books then. Do you enjoy that? that, do you do that in pieces? How do you do it while you're 13 minute commuting each way? When do you do the audio books? Hazel Raja: I do. No, no, no, no. So I started walking. I usually go for like a 45 minute to one hour walk, almost every day. that is kind of, pop in my earbuds and I listen to podcasts, books, whatever I feel like that, that day. Yeah, for some reason when I'm driving, I can't listen to a book or I can't listen to a podcast because I'm too focused on what I'm doing. But walking, I'm like, ⁓ la la la la. It just kind of, it just allows me to focus on what I'm hearing. So the other book I'm actually reading or listening to is Serena Wegman. She's the... the UK women's soccer team coach. so I got her book and I just, ⁓ I've been to her pathway to being UK, the English soccer team lionesses coach. that's kind of fun because I, she's, she's kind of a bad ass. Doug Cutchins: Mostly women. I've noticed, mean, those three books or audio books that you've mentioned are all women. Is that intentional on your part or? Hazel Raja: ⁓ yeah, that's true actually. I'm not intentional, now I'm recognizing your theme too. yeah, again, it goes back to the fact that if is behaving a certain way doing something my attention, I want to know a little bit more about them as individuals. And so tend to read more of non-fiction or biography. Malala's on my list too. that her new book's on my list. I tend to kind want to know a little bit more about kind of them as individuals. Doug Cutchins: Well, thing ⁓ that try and do towards the end of each podcast is to think about our friendship and where we might get to meet up next. mean, we're 12 time zones apart right now. ⁓ so been, I think, five, six years since we last saw one another. ⁓ Hazel Raja: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: In the context of the book, maybe using the book as inspiration, where and when and how white might we meet up next. Hazel Raja: So two things. First of all, I hope, and I expect to be invited to your wedding. ⁓ and that's if you're having a big wedding, of course. and then the second thing is I Doug Cutchins: Okay? Hazel Raja: we obviously have go to a comedy show and somebody that we both would be excited to see. Because I do love comedy shows and I've only been to a small handful and I feel like that should be, I spend a lot of money on musicians. So I might as well do the same for comedy. But yeah, I feel like we should go see it. show together. ⁓ my gosh tons tons or or we can meet somewhere else and then just make it a trip. Doug Cutchins: I'll come out to LA. There's gotta be a ton of comedy shows in LA. That would be great fun. We can do an international trip. I'll travel with my boss. Hazel Raja: will be okay. ⁓ bosses are okay. Yeah. Doug Cutchins: That would be okay. Former bosses allowed, current bosses not allowed. Hazel, thank you so much for this. This was great fun. I'm so glad that we got to catch up and talk and it was a great choice of a book, really fun book to read and I really appreciate ⁓ you coming and thanks for being my friend. Hazel Raja: Thank you. My pleasure. was so good spending time with you.