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Y Tu Mamá También with Adriana Ortega · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions asked if movies have
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: or do they have individualism?
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: It's the patriarchy.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Zeph and bast start changing with the Bechdel Cast.
• 0:16
  Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey, Kaitlin, do you want to go on
• 0:19
  Speaker 3: a road trip with me to a beach and then
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: we'll kiss at the end?
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: Hmmm?
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: How old are you? Howlme?
• 0:31
  Speaker 3: Where you and I are the same age in this scenario?
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, but so we'll hook up? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Okay, yes, yes, yes, Okay,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: let's go, let's go and let's uh, let's just go
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: just us.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Okay, that sounds great, b end wonderful story. Hello, and
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name is Caitlin Drante.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: My name is Jamie Loftus, and this is our podcast
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: where we examine your favorite movies using an intersectional feminist lens,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: using the Bechdel Test as a jumping off point for discussion.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: But Katelyndurante, what the hell is the Bechdel Test?
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Well, it's a media metric created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel,
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: sometimes called the Bechdel Wallace test, which first appeared in
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: Alison Bechdel's comic Dykes to Watch out For in the
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: mid eighties as a goof as just a little bit
• 1:30
  Speaker 3: in the comic, and it has since become a widely
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: used metric. And our version of it is that two
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: characters of a marginalized gender have to have names, they
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: have to speak to each other, and their conversation has
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: to be about something other than a man. And we
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: especially like it when it's a juicy meati conversation. Oh okay, yeah,
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: that was gross. I'm sorry, No, it's good. It's what
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: are they They scallops? They have some different types of seafood.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, yeah, we have to have a meadi seafood
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: y kind of conversation.
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: Nice.
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So that's what we use as a springboard to
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: talk about movies and the representation they're in. Today's movie
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: is a movie from two thousand and one directed by
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: Alfonso kron Ittumama Tambien, and we have an incredible guest
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: joining us. She is a Spanish tutor. She's a former
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: university professor, an educator all around. She's also a Mexican
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: immigrant who moved to the US four years ago, and
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: she's my personal Spanish tutor. It's Adriana Ortega.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm so excited to be here.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Well go, we're so start to have Yeah.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: First of all, English is not my first language, so
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: this is going to be a rite.
• 3:08
  Speaker 3: But be patients with me, of course.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I love this movie. It's very important to me.
• 3:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, tell us about your relationship with the movie.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Well, this movie came when I was in high school.
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: When I was in my last year of high school,
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and I have two very good friends. One of them
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: I don't talk to very much, but the other one
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: is still my best friend. And the one that I
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: don't talk to anymore had like a cool mom. Everyone
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: has this friend who has the cool mom, so that
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: her mom took us to see it Mata been. My
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: parents would have never okay, And since she was the
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: cool mom, let's take the kids to see a movie
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: with sex.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: Every parent has to at some point for some reason.
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we loved it. We quoted the movie. It
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: was like, I don't know our American pie.
• 4:13
  Speaker 3: Oh okay, I don't know.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: If there's an equivalent, because we didn't have that before.
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: Like Mexican movies were boring, like movies about people our age,
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: like young people. Movies had to be American to appeal
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: to us. So this was like the first Mexican movie
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: made like for us as an audience and of course
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: as girls, as young teenage girls, seeing Diego and Guile was.
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: Like, oh, oh my god, it's sickening, unfair, attractive those
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: men are.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: They're so beautiful and they were so young. They were
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: so young now that I see it, they had baby face.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Twenty years old.
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: Do that.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: I'm always shocked at. I mean, it's like Diego Luna
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: is not old, but he has been famous for so long.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: It's wild because he was like a teen idol before
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: this movie.
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: No, no, he was a child idol. They Diego and
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Guyle have been in Mexico. They were soap opera stars
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: since since as children, as little kids. Yeah, there's this,
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: oh even younger.
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: They were eleven years old when they were in a
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: soap opera named Ella Wueloy so grandpa and me h yeah,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: and everyone had a Grussian Guile since he was eleven
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: years old, so they were big and Gile disappeared for
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: a while, Ygo kept being in soap operas. So when
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: we saw them in this movie, well, Gile had already
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: filmed a More Esperos, but Diego was still in our
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: minds a child soap opera actors. So they blew everyone's
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: minds with this movie.
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, suddenly they're naked and they're masturbating and they're kissing
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: each other spoiler alert.
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and acting like so good.
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: They're such good actor. Yeah.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the way they changed the tone, it blows my mind.
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: So that's my story with the movie. I've been a
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: fan of those two since I was a kid. I've
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: always liked movies, and I've always been aware of director's
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: names and all of that. So Alfonso quarn directed Great
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Expectations with When It Through and it and.
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: I've not seen that.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: It's good. It's very good. So he was coming back
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: to Mexico and everyone was like, Oh, it's a famous
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: director who's already working in then now he's doing a
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: movie about Mexico, and everyone was excited about that too. Yeah,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: I was that annoying teenage person who knew the director's name.
• 7:12
  Speaker 3: He had also directed The Little Princess before this.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I didn't.
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: I think I grew up with that movie, it's okay, look, well,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: I'll be completionists one day day. I'm also a little
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: Princess head, but I'm not a Quarne completionist.
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: I have some gaps. I think it's just great expectations
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: and gravity. But I always confused Gravity an Interstellar because
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: it was like two of our most famous living directors
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: directed space movies so close together.
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: I don't know, true, Jamie, what is your relationship with
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: Ittomoma Dumbion?
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: So I'd seen this once before, but it was a
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: very very long time ago, and I had not retained
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: very much of it. I think I was far closer
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: to the young boys characters in this movie the first
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: time I saw it. Now I think I may be
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: the exact age of the older member of the maid cast.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: So it was very different viewing experiences, and I was,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: I think, watching it with friends the first time. But
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I do remember to me, as a dufus American New Englander,
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: that I first learned of this movie when Harry Potter
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: three was announced and Alfonso Crone was the director, because
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: in my like ten year old world, they were like
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: and this guy has directed a Little Princess, which I
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: loved and also this very sexy movie that I'm not
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: allowed to watch because I you know, I was eight
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: when this movie came out, so I definitely wasn't allowed
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to watch it. And I don't think that my parents
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: did either, because they back horny movie depth, I guess,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: but yeah, this movie had like mythic status in my head.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: So I watched it when I was in college. I
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: remember really liking it in college, and this is the
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: first time I have revisited it in I think at
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: least ten years, and I mean, holy shit, there's so
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: much to talk about. And also, I mean I remember
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: when I watched it in college, and again this is
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: like goofy. American kids will know that I saw Diego Luna,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and to me, I'm like, it's the guy from Dirty
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Dancing Havana Knights that I had a crush on because
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: I was really into Dirty Dancing Havanah Knights. I don't
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: know how well that would do on this show, but
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: that was like a sleepover movie. Dirty Dancing Havana Knights
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: was cannon to me, and so that's where I knew
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: Diego Luna from at the time. And now, you know,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: everyone in this movie is such a legend it's so
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: well acted. I think it's one of the most interesting
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: road trip movies I've ever scene, because I mean, there's
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: so many ways to do a road trip movie. I
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: feel like often there's goofiness. Often coming of age movies
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: are either like over dramatic or overly goofy.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: I associate them with like gross out comedies a lot.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of American road trip movies
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: are like gross out comedies.
• 10:19
  Speaker 5: I mean these movies not that this movie isn't very
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: gross in points, which it is, but I also think
• 10:26
  Speaker 5: like the alternate to that I'm thinking of, Like, I
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: don't know why this movie is coming to my like
• 10:32
  Speaker 5: a road trip that is.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Like rooted in mourning from the jump right where it's
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: like I'm on a road trip to go see my
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: sick relative, or I'm like on a road trip to
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: do something sad, a goofy movie goofy see and the
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: most serious coming of aged road trip of all. But like,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: this movie is so like I don't know when movies
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: are trying to be profound, I feel like it rarely
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: hits for me. But this movie is so messy and
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: it's silly and it's serious and there's a lot to
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: talk about, but I feel like it's just like it
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: made me uncomfortable at times, and I wonder how I
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: would feel watching this at a different point of my life,
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: because it may be uncomfortable because it's about all of
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: the things that you don't say or acknowledge in the
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: day to day even when you're having a goofy movie experience,
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: and like everything that is like stewing under you that
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: it is just like so inherent to who you are
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: and how you can see characters in this movie doing
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: something that on its face is unkind or confusing or
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: bizarre or sad or funny. I don't know, like that.
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: This movie just I've never seen anything like it, and
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: it made me, I think, squirm in a good way
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: because you're like, ough, people are so hard. Anyways, this
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: is an interesting movie to revisit, Caitlin, what's your history?
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: I saw this movie a few years after it came out.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: I think I saw it in two thousand and four
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: when I was a freshman in college. A friend showed
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: it to me and I immediately loved it. I was like, Okay,
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: these people are so sexy, and that was my first
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: introduction to both Gail Garcia Bernal and Diego Luna, and
• 12:29
  Speaker 3: I've loved the Gail Garcia Barnw I've mentioned this on
• 12:33
  Speaker 3: the show before. He is my future husband. I love
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: him so much. And You've been saying this for years.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: I've been saying it for years. Also Now as a
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: huge and Or head, I think I just need to
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: enter a throuple with the two of them.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen Ander yet, Audrina, have you seen it yet?
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: It's so good, damn it.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm alone and not having seen Andrew,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: I do have to watch.
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: It's incredible.
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: It's the best Star Wars product that has ever come out.
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: I agree. So I love both of them. I do
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: want to make both of them my husbands. And it
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: all started with this movie and then just as a
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: piece of like storytelling, this is such an incredible movie.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not big on your more like slice of life
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: character study type movies. I tend to prefer like big,
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: out of this world genre film, but this is like
• 13:33
  Speaker 3: such a well done, incredible movie with interesting characters, and
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: just like the way it examines life in Mexico and
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: the little snapshots you see of people who are not
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: like the main cast. But I like that it takes
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: the time to tell little narratives, little kind of vignettes
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: almost about different people or like historical events and things
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: like that. Just I think it's a really interesting way
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: to craft a narrative. And I love this movie. It's
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: one of my favorites. There's lots to talk about, and
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I'm excited to get into it. So let's take a
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: quick break and then we'll come back for the recap.
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: And we are back, okay, So here's the recap of
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: the movie. We are in Mexico City in the late nineties,
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: I think it's nineteen ninety nine, and we open on
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: to Notch played by Diego Luna. He's having sex with
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: his girlfriend Anna. She's about to leave on a trip
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: and they're promising each other not to cheat on each other.
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: They're with other people while she's away. Then we meet
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: Julio that's Gail Garcia Bernal. He's also saying goodbye to
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: his girlfriend Cecilia via having sex with her because she
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: and Anna are going to Italy for the summer together.
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: They're best friends, and Tonoch and Julio are best friends,
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: so we see them like bidding their girlfriends farewell at
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: the airport, and then they're just kind of hanging out.
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: They're goofing around, they're enjoying their lives as like quote
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: unquote single guys for the summer. They're farting a lot
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: in front of each other as a goof.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of like triggeringly teenage boy content at
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the very top of this movie, where you're like, all right,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: you're lying, you're insecure, you're farting.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: You're wearing a right, your whole personality is driving a
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: weird car.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: You're like, I've seen this guy, yeah, and I've fallen
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: in love with this guy.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Of course that's when my notes I hades and
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: these guys, Oh.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: My god, they're so unlike the other guys we think
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: at the time.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so they're like hanging out, they go to this party,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: they swim in a pool. We see their penises in
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: the locker room. It's a thing. Also, I did not
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: realize how I thought they were college age the first,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: like many dozens of times I saw this movie. We
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: just learned that they are still in high school, so
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: that we'll talk about that. But anyway, I'm like, oh god,
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: I feel weird now. The actors were like in their
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: early twenties when they filmed this, but like.
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but they're just we talked about this for Adriana.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: You said this may have been a translation thing, because, Yeah,
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: at the big beginning of the movie, I thought it
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: was the classic like summer trip after senior year kind
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: of thing that we've seen. The movie is a lot,
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: but you're totally right. At the end of the movie,
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: we flash forward a year and they have just gotten
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: out of high school, so this is the end of
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: their junior year of high school there.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so in Mexico there are three years of high
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: school and they're about to start their senior year. Because
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: when they're in the car farting, they have This is
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: not in the subtitles, but Dono says that his dad
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is mad at him because he doesn't want to study
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: Aria tres, which means so the last year of high
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: school in Mexico, we get to choose which area of studies.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It depends on what you're studying in university. So he
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: wants to be in Area four. He wants to be
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a writer, and his dad is mad at him because
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: he doesn't want to be on Area three. So that's
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: how we know they're about to start their senior year.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I say, okay, got it.
• 18:09
  Speaker 3: Well, yeah, we'll dive into an age gap later on.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: But anyway, god damn it.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: You know some people start their senior year at eighteen
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: in Mexico, So okay, so they may be seventeen or eighteen,
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: they're not like fourteen or fifteen. There must be about
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: to turn eighteen.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, let's pretend that that's true for the sake of
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: our ability to enjoy the events that transpire.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: For everyone listening. I guess, yeah, full transparency, we are
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: not sure, and it's the movie doesn't sure. At least
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the translation that I watched it was not totally clear.
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: Right anyway, So we see them hanging out, and we're
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: also getting a lot of voiceover narration about each character
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: we meet. So we learn, like you said, Adriana, that
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Tonoch wants to be a writer. He comes from an
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: upper class family, his dad is a politician. Julio comes
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: from a lower class family. He lives with his mom
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: and sister. He hasn't had contact with his father in
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: many years, so we're learning things like that. We're also
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: throughout the movie getting voiceover narration like I said, with
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: these quick little anecdotes about different people in the community,
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: maybe it's like something that happened at a location that
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: they are at years prior. Just again these little like
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: snapshots about different characters or situations. Then Tonoch and Julio
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: go to a wedding where they meet Luisa played by
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Maribel verdu. She is married to Tonoch's cousin Hano and
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: to know, Julio immediately take a liking to Luisa, who
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: tells them that she's gonna be hanging out by herself
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: for the next few days while her husband Hanno is away,
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: and she wants to go to the beach. And Julio
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: is like, ooh, we're going to the beach. Isn't that
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: right to Notch and Tonch is like, yes, yes, it
• 20:23
  Speaker 3: definitely is. We are going to the beach that definitely exists,
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: and it's definitely called La Boca de Clo, which translates
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: to Heaven's.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Mouth, which is a great joke.
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: One of the things this movie does in a fun
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: way and then also goes back later to get a
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: little more layer, is just like how much specificity that
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: they make Hanno seem like a real drip and like
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: a real piece of shit annoying up his own ask
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: guy baby, right, And then you get the narration that
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: is like, Okay, he comes by it honestly, like which
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: every asshole technically comes by it honestly. But then you
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: get to go back and you're like, well, but also
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: he's an asshole.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we are not meant to sympathize with him.
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: No, And I like, when we get all of the
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: context for a character and we still don't sympathize with them,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: that's like super right, rare.
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: It feels like yeah. So anyway, they're talking to Luisa
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: about this fake trip that they are going on, and
• 21:26
  Speaker 3: they're clearly just making all of this up, and they
• 21:28
  Speaker 3: invite her along, knowing that she'll probably decline, and she
• 21:32
  Speaker 3: does brush them off. So the next day they just
• 21:36
  Speaker 3: carry on with their lives. They are fantasizing about having
• 21:40
  Speaker 3: sex with Luisa while they are jerking off side by
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: side at the swimming pool. Meanwhile, Luisa gets a call
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: from Hanno who admits to cheating on her, and she's devastated,
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: and I think the next day she calls to and
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: is like, hey, you're still going to that beach? La
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: Boca de Cielo, right, and Tonocha's like, yeah, duh, we're
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: leaving this afternoon, and she's like great, I want to
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: come with you. So now tanoch and Julio have to
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: scramble to put this trip together so that they can
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: take Luisa with them. They borrow a car from Julio's sister,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: they grab some groceries, they get confusing directions from their
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: friend Sabo, and then they pick Luisa up and start
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: driving toward a random beach. Basically, they're just like going
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: toward the coast. On the way, the guys get to
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: know Luisa and they tell her about them. How they
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: call each other Charlelastras. They have a manifesto. On their
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: manifesto is stuff like there's no bigger honor than being
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: a Charles Astra. Never fuck another Charle Astra's girlfriend. Jerking
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: off is awesome.
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. Unlike fight club they have eleven rules,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: and fight club is frustrating enough. But I'm like, there's
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: eleven rules and some of them contradict the other rules,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: and no one follows the rules.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: But two of them repeat, Yeah, they hate what is it?
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: The like American club football?
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Like, I don't like this word but slur for gay. Globe.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: America is a soccer team in Mexico that everyone either
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: loves or hates. There's no middle ground, no one is indifferent.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: Felt that way based on Hanning yea.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: But my family is they like America, so we're on
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: the other side.
• 24:02
  Speaker 3: Okay. So then that night they stop for some food
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: and drinks and Luisa admits to them that Hanno has
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: been cheating on her, and later on, when they're at
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: a hotel, they go and like try to spy on her,
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: but they see her crying, so they kind of scurry
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: back to their room, and the next day they set
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: off for the beach. She calls them out for spying
• 24:34
  Speaker 3: on her, and then the conversation turns to sex. She
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: wants to know how many people they've slept with. She
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: asks them how they make love to their girlfriends, and
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: at the exact moment that she mentions putting a finger
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: in someone's asshole, the car breaks down and so they
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: have to stop for the day. We see Luisa crying
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: in her room again. We will come to understand why
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: she keeps kind of breaking down and crying. But anyway,
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: as she's doing this to no barges in to borrow
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: some shampoo, and then she's like, hey, drop your towel
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: and come here, and he's like, TIHI what. And then
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: they start fooling around and they have sex and he
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: comes very fast, and then we pan over to Julio
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: in the doorway, who has seen the whole thing, and
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: now he's very jealous and he's like, by the way,
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: to Noach, I fucked your girlfriend Anna. And now to
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Noach is super jealous and upset, and he interrogates Julio
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: all night with all these questions about this affair.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Basically, I have so much to say about that scene,
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: where it's like, even in these moments of true profound hurt,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: it's like the women are incidental and talked like as
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: if they're symbols or objects and not.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: And they like are slut shaming their girlfriends. Yeah, like
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: using really disparaging language. Yeah.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well we'll come back to it, but yeah.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah. So the next morning, in the car, while Tanoch's driving,
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: Luisa climbs into the back seat with Julio and starts
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: kissing him to sort of like restore the balance, because
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: she can tell that there's a lot of tension between them,
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: so to not she's pissed off. He pulls over and
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: runs off while Luisa and Julio have sex in the
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: back seat.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Louis is like, there's only one way to resolve this,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: having sex with a second teenager. You're like, Louisa, God,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: damn it.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: No, we'll come back to it. So they have sex,
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: and then he also comes very fast, and then shech
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: and she's like, well, this is what you wanted right, like,
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: you were both trying to fuck me. That's why you
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: invited me on this beach trip. And she realizes that
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: she shouldn't have had sex with either of them, but
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: she's like, well, too late. Now let's go. So they
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: set off again. They're driving and to Notch is like, hey, Julio,
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: me too. I also had sex with your girlfriend Cecilia,
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: and then they get in another huge fight. They're screaming
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: at each other. Luisa is like, you guys are pigs
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: and your babies and I'm leaving. So she storms off,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: but they convince her to get back in the car,
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: but only after she's like, okay, we do this my
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: way or the highway. I'm not gonna fuck you again.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: And you can't fight with each other or be annoying,
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: and you have to leave me alone whenever I want
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: you to. And they're like, fair understood. So they're still
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: trying to get to the beach, and that night they
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: pull off somewhere and get stuck in the sand, so
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: they just call it a night and pass out in
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: the car. Then the next morning, Luisa wakes up and
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: discovers that they are very close to this beautiful, you know,
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: secluded private beach, and so they start to enjoy the beach.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: They meet this couple, Chewi and Maybell, who take the
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: three of them on a tour in their boat, and
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: Chewi is like, oh, up here is a good place
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: to swim. This beach is called La Boca de Cielo,
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: which is the same name that to Know Sin Julio
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: made up earlier. So they're like, wow, what a coincidence.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: So they're hanging out, and then that night to Know
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: Julio and Luisa are eating and drinking. They're talking about
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: sex again. They're toasting to blow jobs and toasting the
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: glitterists and all this stuff, and then and Julio drunkenly
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: confess that they have had sex with each other's girlfriends
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: multiple times, and then Julio is like, itu mama tambien,
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: meaning I had sex with your mom, also hence the
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: name of the movie.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: And at this point they're like woo.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, They're like yeah, dude, awesome. And then the three
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: of them start dancing and they go back to their
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: room and they have a threesome I think, one of
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: the most famous threesomes committed to film. Although upon the
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: rewatch I was like, this doesn't I mean, it's like steamy,
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: but I'm like, I remember this being way more I
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: don't know, like pornographical most than it is.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Like Caitlin's like, I've seen so much hardcore porn at
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: this point that it's like, so tme came to me
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: and it's weird.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: You're not wrong, but anyway, So the next morning, Luisa
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: tells the guys that she's going to stay with Chewi
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: and Maybell for a few more days, so she parts
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: ways with Tonch and Julio, who returned to Mexico City
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: and then drift apart as friends. We cut two months
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: later where they bump into each other for the first
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: time in like a year. Because it's like the following summer,
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: they decide to get coffee and catch up, and to
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: Notch reveals to Julio that Luisa passed away not long
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: after they parted ways. She had cancer, which she found
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: out about right before she went on that road trip
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: with them, or.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: That I thought that was a little unclear that it
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: was like I think that she maybe found out that
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: the cancer was past the point of no return or something.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Oh maybe, yeah, I wasn't clear. And the way that
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: she talked to Hannah on the phone, like if he
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: knew that she had cancer but that it wasn't terminal,
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: or like to what degree that he knew. But I
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: think that maybe he didn't know, because otherwise he probably
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: would have caught on. So like she knew that it
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: was terminal and maybe was like trying to hang in
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: the relationship as long as she felt it was possibly
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: treatable or I don't know, I'm not totally sure. I
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: fe like it was left pretty open. Who knew what?
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: No, Yeah, I think Hannah they didn't know. And she
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: finds out like right before the trip. So she finds that.
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: Because we see her at a doctor's appointment where she's
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: like picking up test results, and I feel like it's
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: at that appointment where I don't know if she learns
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: about the cancer for the first time in that moment,
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: or she just learns that whatever illness she had was terminal. Yeah,
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: but I think it's implied that she learns that she
• 31:51
  Speaker 3: only has very limited amount of time left prior to
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: the trip, which is sort of what motivates her to
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: go on. Absolutely anyway, so they discuss Luisa having passed away,
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: and then they part ways again and that meeting is
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: the last time they will ever see each other. The end,
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: and then I'm crying. So that's the movie. Let's take
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: another quick break and we'll come back to discuss Where
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: shall we start.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: I want to start with the cass Okay, the case
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: between them was like a very big deal in Mexico because,
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: as I told you, we knew those guys as kids,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: as child actors. Yeah, and it was like the first
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: time I think that cultural products that I saw was
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: like criticizing toxic male friendships. Well, I don't know if
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: it's a criticism, but it was the first time I
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: saw something that implied that these toxic, corny guys who
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: are like hyper masculine and hyper sexual are in the
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: closet or something like that. It started a conversation, and
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: I was just reading an interview with Alfonso quarn that
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: said that some people at the cinema in Mexico started boeing,
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: oh wow when that happened. Yeah, because it was a
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: big shock. But I loved it. I think it was
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: very bold. And I was like seventeen years old when
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: I watch it, and it made me think. It made
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: me like, Wow, all these guys in my high school
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: who are like very toxic and very muchural, secretly want
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: to kiss each other.
• 34:06
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I haven't seen an awful lot of Mexican
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: cinema or like, depictions of queer romance or sexuality pretty rare,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: or at least at this time.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: No, they didn't exist. Everything in Mexican cinema before this
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: was either chadros with their big sombredos and guns and
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: stealing women singing and or there was a period in
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: the eighties and nineties when all the Mexican movies were
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: raunchy comedies and women were barely there. They were objects.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: They were wearing biginnis and having no dialogue. Or in
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: the sixties seventies, the luchador movies that were like superhero movies,
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: like our Mexican superhero movies, where the luchadors were heroes
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: and rescued women. Maybe there were there were not very
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: popular movies that were about gay romance, but we didn't
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: see anything like that before.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: Not in the mainstream. No, I mean, that's not dissimilar
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: from American cinema.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: But I think it is really I mean, I listened
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: to a few interviews that Alfonso Quaron did when this
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: movie came out, and then also at the twentieth anniversary
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: point of this movie, and it is really fascinated here.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's really admirable that such an established,
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: successful director wanted to go back and create a movie
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: that engaged with masculinity, engaged with the politics and class
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: politics of his home country, and engage with queerness in
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: a I think good faith way at a time where
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: like no one anywhere was doing that and like it
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: could get you booed, and it just feels I know,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: on the show, we hate to hand it to a man,
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: but I really do. I mean, I think, like, especially
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: because of how established he was in Mexico, in Hollywood
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: and everywhere at this point, to go back to tell
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: a story that is clearly very personally important to him
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: and also knowingly risky for the time is really cool.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: And I don't know if like this movie engages with
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: ideas of masculinity and puts it in context with the
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: politics of the time and place without excusing the behavior
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: way that is, like I think better than a lot
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: of movies try to discuss masculinity.
• 37:06
  Speaker 6: Now, yes, it's yeah, I agree, And I think we've
• 37:14
  Speaker 6: talked about this before in different episodes.
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: How there's this weird disparity between like almost every movie
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: being about men, but so few movies actually centering a
• 37:29
  Speaker 3: compelling male friendship in the way that I think this
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: movie does. And yes, these characters are pretty toxic. They
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: have a lot of love for each other, but it
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: comes unraveled because of their insecurities and you know, their
• 37:47
  Speaker 3: toxicity and their fragility, all of that stuff. But it's
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: just interesting to see that closely examined in a way
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: that just feels so extremely grounded and real, Like so
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: many you know whatever, seventeen eighteen year old boys are
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: exactly this way and their friendships are exactly this way,
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: and it's just really interesting to me to see a
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: male friendship portrayed so authentically in a way that like, yes,
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: these characters they're likable to me, but I can also
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: absolutely but they're also the one recognize that they're like yeah,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: like they're.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Because exactly like there's such a juvenile like anyone who's
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: ever been around teenage boys with something to prove kid
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: relate with this where it's and this is something I
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: remember from my teenage experience in people of all genders
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: to sort of deflect their own complicated feelings towards the
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: people around them, because it seems like for Julio and
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: to not exploring their sexuality is not allowed, and like
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: it is not just like a societal block, it's also
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: a mental block where it's like you cannot allow yourself
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to think that this is something you could explore. And
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: so there's like this deflectiveness that I feel like we
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: probably all experience as teenagers that instead of being honest
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: with how they're feeling about themselves or about their own experiences,
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: it's easier to default to what you think you're supposed
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: to say and how you think you're supposed to treat
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: other people. And in the case of these teenage boys,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: as I think is still common, Like, it ends up
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: being deflective in a way that is cruel to girls
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: and women that they know, in a way that is
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: like because they're unwilling or feel unable in ways that
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: can be understandable, but it doesn't make it the fault
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: of the women in their lives. And it's like in
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: the way that it's written and the way that it's
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: performed in this movie, it feels clear that that's what's
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: happening and that it's pretty incredible because I think sometimes
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: when we see those narratives played out, it's presented as well,
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: you know, this is how guys are because dudes rocks, right,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: But the way that this story in this Friendship plays
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: out demonstrates that they are not just projecting and being
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: unkind to the people around them, they're also trapped in
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: a like vision of themselves that they can't fully be
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: themselves like and it's just everyone in this movie is
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: both experiencing joy and experiencing connection but is also still
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: in like a prison of themselves in a way that
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: feels like I think that was why it was like
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: hard at some points to watch because you're like, oh no,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: that's everybody.
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: And the narrator those a great job of explaining to
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: us what the inner conflicts are these characters and the
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: outer conflicts, because the political climate in Mexico at that
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: time is so important. It seems like it's not that important,
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: but it is because it happens in nineteen ninety nine.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: Nineteen ninety nine was the last year of the PRE
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: that was the political party that governed Mexico for seventy
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: one years. So the Notts father is a politician from
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: the PRE and their reign is ending.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: The castle is crumbling, and they.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Are being groomed. I hate that word nowadays, but since
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: they are kids, they are like, so you're going to
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: be in office, and they're preparing them to follow the
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: steps of their parents. I know who these guys are.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: And so the part when he says he wants to
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: be a writer, it's very important because you know he
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: will not since the narator says he's the son of
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: a politician in power, and the president is at the wedding.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember this.
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah I didn't mention it in the recap, but yeah,
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: he's there, and.
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: There's a moment where the father says, Stenogia, if we're
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: still at a president. Did you go to say hello
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: to the president like you will be working for him?
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: But then the next year that political party doesn't win
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: the elections and it's like the start of the real
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: democracy in Mexico. And it's very symbolic of the journey
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: because they because at the same time the system of
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: movement in Mexico crumbles, their friendship grumbles. Is something like that,
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Wow symbolism.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: I was like, I had questions about that for you, Audrianna,
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: because yeah, I did some reading into like what is
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: the political moment that we are falling into here? And
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: this is again like dufus American where I read scholarly
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: journal Wikipedia. But that's fascinating to know because it does
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of different ways to approach
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: the dynamics in this movie, where obviously I think we
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: sort of default to looking at the gender dynamics in
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: the movie and the class dynamics, but we don't fully
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: understand the cultural dynamics. And it's clear that Quorn wants
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: us to engage with all of those things at once,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: which I think is like part of what makes this
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: movie challenging and brilliant. If you're not originally from Mexico,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: is that it just feels very clear where you hear
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: how the characters talk, you some times find out what
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: happens to them in the future. Sometimes the narration in
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: this movie is so fucking cool because it will just
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: stop the action of the movie and draw your attention
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: to a character sometimes that never comes back to contextualize
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: where you are, and also contextualize what the main characters
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: of the movie are either ignoring or just sort of
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: taking in stride in a way that you wouldn't question
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: unless the movie is taking you out of it to
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: say like, hey, this is so normalized, or the privileges
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: that these characters have are such that they can just
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: ignore this, right. And then sometimes it's about people. Sometimes
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: it's about the history of a place that they fully
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: don't know or couldn't possibly intuitively know. And I think
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: it's really cool that I don't know. It seems like
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: Quorn has an interest in literally everything in this movie,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: and it has like in a way that I think
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: most road trip movies. I mean, I think of like
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: American road trip movies where it's like, Okay, we have
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: to stop somewhere in the South and we're going to
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: do a really cartoonish depiction of the American South, and
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: then we're going to stop in Vegas and we're gonna
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: do a really cartoonish depiction of Vegas. And they're all
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: set pieces, but there's no intellectual interest in who lives
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: there or what the history is, right, and this movie
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: will interrupt a silly scene about blow jobs to tell
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: you something about the history of the land they're driving over.
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: It's really cool.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: Almost always with an emphasis on class disparity or like
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: the little stories will be a working class person or
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: a person living in poverty dealt with this or is
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: dealing with this, or you'll see examples of like people
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: being detained by probably corrupt cops and things like that.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: And then there's one scene in particular that really sticks
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: out to me where they're driving past this small village
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: called Tepelmeme, where Tonoch's nanny Leo is from. We get
• 46:12
  Speaker 3: voiceover about how she immigrated to Mexico City when she
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: was thirteen. She is the person who raised him from birth.
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: He called her his mom for the first four years
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: of his life. You also see a scene with her
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: earlier in the movie where like the phone's ringing off
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: the hook to Nocha's right beside it. He doesn't do
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: anything to answer it. He's like expecting her to answer it.
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: She has brought him food, and then he also kind
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: of like very dismissively sort of shows her away. So
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: it's just like showing the way that this rich kid
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: son of a politician is like so dismissive to like
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: a woman who helped raise him. Also, she's an Indigenous woman.
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: And another fun fact, he's wearing Sapatista's T shirt in
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: that scene. His nanny brings him the sandwich. He's wearing.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: The Sapatistas, I don't know you've heard about them are
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: like an indigenous rights movement in Mexico. They're very important.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so while he's treating his nanny like garbage,
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: he's wearing the face of an indigenous leader in his
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: tea shirt.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Okay, hypocrisy, sir.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: That moment was a huge for class that I feel
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: like Quarn revisits in Roma, which is a whole other
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: discussion and a whole other episode, because that's a very
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: separate discussion. But Alfonso Quarn, it seems like the experiences
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: of the teen boys are closer to what he experienced
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: growing up. He grew up with a lot of privilege
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: and sort of continue to explore that in roma, which
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: we'll cover it down the line. And he also wrote
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: it with his brother, which also feels telling where it
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: seems like and the interviews would sort of indicate it's
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: not autobiographical, but there's a lot of themselves in the
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: way that the two young men are presented. And the
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: other class moment that really hit for me was in
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: the way that the boys relate to each other and
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: just even in touching on how they react to each
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: other's bathrooms in a very class driven way, where one,
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: when the working class character is in the rich character's bathroom,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: he tries to erase the smell of shit, and then
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: when the rich character is in the working class characters bathroom,
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: he doesn't want to touch anything because it's like, you know,
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: he seems to feel that it is dirty, less or whatever.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: And I think that that is like a complicated class
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: dynamic that literally exists in the same you know, half
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: a mile in any neighborhood, and it seems like it
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: does for these guys, and a way that I think
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: it's very easy to say, like I'm a class hero
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: because like, sure, I have a lot of privileges, but
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: look at my friend over here where it's like these
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: very intimate moments that are actually telling.
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: And this is in my notes. Julio's his underwear, he's
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: always wearing like tidy whities.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: And then the brand, the brand he's wearing is Rambros.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: This is not sponsor, like Rambros. Underwear is like the
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: cheapest underwear brand in Mexico. And it was very deliberate. Okay,
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: I saw a documentary. I saw it on YouTube. I
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: don't know if it was like a DVV something, but
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: Guile didn't want to use them. They didn't want to
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: wear them because they're like the cheapest. But it was deliberate.
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: And during the wedding scene, he's wearing like a shirt
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: that looks like from the seventies with waves.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Like those like roughly yeah.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's wearing that like clearly something that was like
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: from his father or yeah. And when they get in
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: the fight in the second fight, when the notch says
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: that he slept with Julia's girlfriend, Julio's pits in the
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: window of the car. Do you remember that the subtitles
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: don't express what the note says, but he says something horrible.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: He says, like a like a very classist slur in Spanish?
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: Is this what translates to hill billy?
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: The version I had watched. The English translation translated it
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: to hick. So he's like, Oh, you're such a hick?
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: What's a hicks?
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: I think it's it's all sort of the same thing,
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: but it's not a slur. It's an insult. It's a
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: class based insult, but it's not a slur necessarily.
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: Oh no, but in Spanish she says a slur. Oh.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: He says, you had to show off you being a
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: slur A class is slur. And it feels like it's
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: been inside of him. I don't know the way. The
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: way he delivers this line is like.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: He's been like holding it back their whole friendship. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: That's how it feels to me. And there's a there's
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: another moment when Louisa is telling them that she wanted
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: to travel but she couldn't. Julia says, yeah, yeah, traveling,
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: traveling is cool or something like that. They're not. Says
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: you haven't even been on a plane something, right, So
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: they build up to this moment.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: It's really interesting to watch like what their dynamic is
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: like and what they are willing to put out in
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: the open versus withhold because for example, like they will
• 52:18
  Speaker 3: jerk off near each other and they will eventually kiss
• 52:25
  Speaker 3: each other in it's while they're drunk. It's unclear if
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: they would be willing to do that if they were sober.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: It's unclear exactly what their sexualities are. That was just
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: sort of like a moment of experimentation. But there's like
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: a sexual component to what they are willing or not
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: willing to do around each other. And then there's like
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: we said, those sort of class things where they're best
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: friends and they're very close, but they are harboring these
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: prejudices and or insecurities about their class differ friends and
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: in a way that again like boils to the surface.
• 53:03
  Speaker 1: Sorry it's my hilarious joke.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Oh sorry, what was it said?
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Prejudices and or something and or and it makes you
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: fake it really doesn't know. I again, like this movie
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: does so much with not just how masculinity is this
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: big performance and you know, femininity is a performance, and
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: but in this movie, it's like masculinity is a performance
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: that hides and obscures and avoids and deflects all of
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: these other things, and like you're just saying Kitlyn and Adriana,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: because I also was like, how is this being translated?
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: What is hillbilly in this context where it's like that
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: is what is actually being held back in someone that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: they very obviously love but don't have the maturity or
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: life experience to be able to like square next to
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: how they've been conditioned to see the world. And they
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: clearly love each other, but their classes are so different
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: that they inherently are judging each other. And they clearly
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: love each other, but they can't get into this conversation
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: without using a woman as a vessel for the conversation
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: in this weird way with their girlfriends or with Louisa
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: or with whoever. And I wanted to ask you about
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: how you felt about this. There was a friend that
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: we never see who is gay, Who is gay? Daniel Yes,
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: who comes up over and over, And also I thought
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: most telling they comes up in the final scene of
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: the movie that I thought was an indication that these
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: characters we don't know and maybe they don't even know
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: at this point. They're very young, but like seem to
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: at least think about what it would be like to
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: be able to identify safely as queer in some way.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: Because in that last scene, they're asking about people they know.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: They ask about Savah.
• 55:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah that is the stoner friend.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the stoner friend, the.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Guy who gives them the bad map.
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah yeah yeah.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: And then I don't know who asked who, but they
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: ask about daniel and I think Julio says, no, his
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: his father threw him out of the house, and then says, oh,
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: that's bad, and Julia says, no, no, he's very happy.
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, he's happy because he has a boyfriend and you know,
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: the romantic relationship will fix all your problems.
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: He he well, no, that conversation felt I don't know, Adria,
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: I'm curious because it felt like that. Yeah, that conversation
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: was like also politically loaded, because they were like, oh,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Danielle is really happy, and they also in the translation
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: I watched that, they're like, well, he's full queen now,
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: so he got kicked out of his parents' house. So
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I feel like it also like indicated there is a
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: level of like he had to sacrifice his family in
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: order to live authentically, and it feels like that is
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: like a little bit of what is at the core
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: of the problem with Julio and is like it extends
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: beyond their sexuality. It's a very multi layered issue, but
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: there are all of these things, some personal, some political,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: some both that are preventing Julio and Tonoch from living
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: as themselves authentically. And I feel like anytime Danielle was
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: brought up, especially because it's not a character we meet
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: or know, and it feels like he's brought up more
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: as a symbol, is like, well, we have a friend
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: who is out, who is living authentically, but there was
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: all of this loss and shame heaped upon this person
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: we care about as a result of them living onthentically.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: And is that something that I'm prepared for? And I
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: think for them the answer, at least in the time
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: of their life that we're seeing, that answer is no,
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: and it's presented non judgmentally. But I don't know. Yeah,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like the specter of Danielle was really interesting
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: to me.
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because they ask each other which universities they are enrolling,
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: and they not says ITAM, which is they're not She's
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: going to study economy at ITAM. That is every politician
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: in Mexico has studied economy at ITAM. So when he
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: says economia is like he's going to be a politician.
• 57:46
  Speaker 2: So there we know that he's not going to be
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: a writer. And Julio says, biology at WAM and ONAM
• 57:54
  Speaker 2: is a public university that is free. Universities are free
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: in Mexico.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: Brad, I'm so jealous.
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: And biology in that university is like, it's not they're
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: not hippies that they're kind of okay, they go camping.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: They have this fame of going camping and living in nature.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so when they tell each other what they're
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: going to study, that's how you know that that they will.
• 58:30
  Speaker 3: That they never be friends again. They they're on very
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: different paths.
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's so oh god, there's so many layers
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: to this damn story. It's so good. Like, I that's
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: so fascinating to know because it's like you can sort
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: of get a whiff of that if you don't know that,
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: but if you have the knowledge, you're like, oh, yeah,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: that is exactly what he's trying to say.
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: And have you read about the names the character's names.
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: No, oh no, tell us.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, So Alfonso and Carlos Quarren named their characters. All
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: of their last names are from Mexican historical figures. So
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Julia's last name is Sapata, Julias Sabata, and Sabata was
• 59:19
  Speaker 2: like revolutionary leader. The not last name is it and
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: Itorde was like another historical figure, but he was like
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: a rich historical figure, like another revolutionary, but like a
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: high class person.
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: And like the privileged.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like a rich revolutionary. I should have read
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: more about these characters before telling you this, but.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: We know nothing. So this is great.
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: But Louis's last name is Cortes. It is the last
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: name of ernand Cortez, that like the biggest conquistador.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, and then I mentioned that was it that was
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: almost named Ernan?
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 4: Yes? Yes.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: The Generator says his father came with a lot of
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: nationalism because he was just elected for office and then
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: he named him the notes. Yeah, so this is like
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: another thing from Mexico. We grew up with this idea
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: that all the races are mixed and there's just only
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: one Mexican race, which is a lie, and racism exists.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: So a lot of white rich people believe that they
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: own indigenous Mexican traditions and names, and you see like
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: basically blonde women wearing like indigenous clothing because they they
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: believe they own it, like they have as much claim
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: to the culture as knows people themselves, and it's it's
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: a mess. Yeah, But you see these rich people naming
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: their kids.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: The note or because that's an indigenous name, right, Yeah, it's.
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: A now name, so it's very common. So when you
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: know his name is the Notch, it's like it's one
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: of those.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 3: Okay, That's something I actually wanted to touch on a
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: little bit as well, because I mean, Diego Luna and
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: Gail Garcia Bernal are white people, right. This is something
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: that I I mean, I've had a lot of confusion
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: about this throughout a large chunk of my life. I
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 3: think a lot of Americans in general, especially non Latin
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: X Americans, assume that if you're from Latin America, you
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: are not white. That like Latini dad is a race
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: and it is not white. And I think that there's
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: a lot of confusion about that there are white Mexicans
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: and white people across all of Latin America. Because I've
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: like had conversations with people where they'd be like, oh, no,
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: they're not white, they're Mexican, and I'm like, well, you
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: can be both, yes, But like, what I wanted to
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: mention that I think is worth mentioning is that it
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: is cool that this movie does, you know, pan over
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: and like tell a little tiny story about characters who
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: are indigenous, or who are elderly, or who are struggling
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: with poverty, but it really just like still kind of
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: puts those characters in the background and still focuses on
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: these white characters with European features and European backgrounds, and
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 3: that is a very movie thing to do. Yeah, but yeah,
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: I just wanted to explore that a little bit because
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 3: I think there's still so much confusion about race and
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 3: ethnicity as it relates to Latin American communities and people.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, yeah, there's a lot of diversity. There's Afro
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: Mexican people, and there are Indigenous Mexican people, and there
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: are people who are descendants of European and there are
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: all the mixes in between.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: Because you described it to me before as like in
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: the US colonizers there was a lot of a lot
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 3: more genocide and in Latin America it was a lot
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 3: more rape, yes, right, And like forcing their like eurocentric
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 3: and like you know, Christian values onto the indigenous population.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: Versus in the northern part of North America, it was
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: more just eradication.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, Indigenous people here in the North don't exist. We
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: don't want them to exist. We put them away. And
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: in the South it was like, oh, indigenous people want
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: to be like us, Let's give them kids that look
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: like us. Jesus and it's yeah, it's both are horrible.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: It's true. No, I mean this is like I don't know, Like,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: as I was listening to your conversation, it was just like, oh, yeah,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: of course that's the most American thing you'd do. Is
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: also feel like, oh yeah, we did the main way
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: of how to suppress an indigenous race, which is the worst, Caitlin.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm very much in the same boat as
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: you where I feel like I was conditioned to view
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: Mexico in a very particular way. It was very homogeneous
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: and in a way that was I was like not
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: conditioned to consider gradients like race, class, gender, that I
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: was not encouraged to look at here, and of course,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: like everywhere is going to have their separate issues, and
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: that the issues of oppression are going to be unique
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: to where you are. And I wonder, because I haven't
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: seen Roma since it came out, I remember some of
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: the criticism that it was met with, and it seems
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: like this is an issue that this specific director has
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: an interest in and also has a lot of criticism
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: around his attempts to tackle it, because as far as
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: it pertains to this movie, I think that there's based
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: on what we were just talking about, it seems as
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: if he wants to acknowledge the diversity in Mexico without
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: centering it and any way, and that's why he is
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: like centering these characters that sort of more closely represent
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: his experience as well as a woman from Spain who
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: is like an outsider in Mexico. And so Adriana movie,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: you disagree, and I'm not fully understanding. It doesn't feel
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: quite like set dressing. But indigenous characters and characters that
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: represent any sort of diversity within race or class in
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Mexico seem like it's to contextualize versus to give any
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: arc or story. It's just to tell us where we
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: are versus give us a character.
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: And I think quar On for people like him and
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: the characters and me because yeah, I grew up in Mexico,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 2: but I grew up with a lot of privilege, So
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: you know, you live in a country with problems and
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: with inequalities. And I think what quo On wanted to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: reflect in the movie is that when you're a stupid,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: privileged teenage person, you see those problems as background. Yeah,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: and I'm not saying it's okay, but you live in
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: a country with so much problems that you just mute them.
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think that like squaring that on Qua or
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: anyone person is not fair. And I do feel that
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: that comes across and that most movies would not even
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: draw your attention to what its centered protagonists are ignoring
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: or missing. And I think that there's some value in that.
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: And again, like doing this episode it maybe want to
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: revisit Roma and see how this director's attempts to address
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: diversity evolved over time.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 2: But with Roma, it's because in this movie, I'm not
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: saying it's okay, but it feels honest. He was a
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: privileged kid, so he's telling a story about privileged kids
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: who ignore all the problems around them. And with Roma,
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: he feels like he can talk about things that are
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: not his stories.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: To tell, right, I don't know.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 2: I like Rama. It's a beautiful movie, and it's beautiful
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 2: and Jelie size amazing and she's so good in it.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 2: But so many people say, and I agree, that it
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: maybe wasn't his story to tell.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which is like so much of the criticism that
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: I feel came up around this movie. And we'll get
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: into Rama when we talk about Roma. But also, yeah,
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 1: it was so incredible in this movie, and she has
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: barely worked since, right that I think she wasn't lostocause
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: one of our greatest television shows up this time. But
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: it just it really it is like a personal thing
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: that I think we've seen over the years in this show,
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: in just in movies where an actor gives an incredible
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: performance and has a huge cultural moment, but it ends
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: up seeming like it's in service of the director's moment,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: and then they are not given the opportunities down the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: line in the way that you would think. She is
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: an Oscar nominated actress. She turned in what everyone says
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 1: is an unbelievable debut performance, and we haven't really seen
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: her in the five years since, and I just find
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: it so frustrated and.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: What she says, is that she has to decline roles
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: because they're super offensive.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: Yes, this.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 2: It's not that she hasn't been offered.
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 3: Work, is just that the work she has been offered
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 3: is racist.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: Right, something like that.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: And you're just like, this is not an issue that
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: the Timothy Shallow Maze of the world are encountering. And
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: it's like, you can be a very, very gifted actor
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: and perhaps and I am, I guess subtweeting, but like
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: a better actor and struggle to find the roles that
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: you deserve. That's not what we're talking about with this movie.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: But Yeah, I was just sort of brought back because
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 1: I forgot about this from when I had seen it
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: in college, how indigenous Mexicans were acknowledged within this movie
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: but not centered, and how that sort of evolved throughout
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: Quaman's work. However, we have not really talked about Luisa
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Louisa Let's talk about Louisa Let's.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: I really like her character, at least just from like
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: a superficial point of view. I think that she's more
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 3: well rounded of a female character than you would generally
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: see in just kind of any given movie, and especially
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 3: one from a movie that was written and directed by men,
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 3: and I also appreciate that as the movie goes on
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: and the more you learn about her and her circumstances,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 3: the more her choices and actions make sense, because again
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 3: you learn by the end that she had a terminal
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: illness that she found out about not long before she
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: knew she was going to die. So she was basically like, Okay,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 3: I need to make the most of what life I
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: have left, and this opportunity presents itself with these teen boys.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't have been my choice, but you know, nor mine.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: I would have been like, hmmm, where are my female
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: friends at and can we go on a little trip?
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: Versus two streitch.
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: But on the other hand, they're the Eggo and guy.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: I know. I just wish. I wish the story had
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 3: aged them up to I don't know, twenty one, and
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: then it would not be a really gross thing.
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, that's one of the most difficult parts of
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: this movie for me is the age ambiguity, because I
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: think that there is a way to look at this
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: where you're like Luis is even in context of what
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 1: she's doing abusing the power dynamic between for sure and
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: these questionably aged young men.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because she knows they're willing to do whatever she wants.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, that was what I was confused, Like, I don't
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: know if that was a question that the movie was
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: trying to get me to grapple with, or if it
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: was just like it was two thousand and one, who
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: cares about the age of consent kind of thing? Like
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: I genuinely was unclear on it because it made me uncomfortable,
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: and I didn't know if the movie wanted me to
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: be uncomfortable about it. The way that I read the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: original reviews and the synopsis of it seemed like it
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: did not want me to be uncomfortable about it. And
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: it's frustrating because their age and their naivete about the
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: world around them is inherent to who they are. Like,
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: I think if you age them up too much, their
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: level of naivete doesn't make quite as much sense. But
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: because of the situation they're in, it's necessary for the plot, like,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: and so it just kind of became a clusterfuck for me.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, if they are like theoretically, if we
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: take out so many things we've already discussed, and they are,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: you know, twenty three, twenty two, twenty three, and they're young,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: but they're you know, consenting adults that are just dufases.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: Sure, which I mean plenty of examples all over the
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 3: world of.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 1: That it happens every day. Then I feel like there's
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: a way to view Luis's actions as cathartic and as like, oh,
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: I am pitting your assumptions about me against you to
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: just like feel good in the time I have left.
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: But because of their dynamic, it just gets it gets
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: really fucking in a.
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: Way that it again, like I mentioned, it didn't even
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 3: occur to me, or I didn't I wasn't even aware,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: or I didn't realize what that gap was the first
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 3: several times I saw this movie. Because while the movie
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 3: does call attention to the fact that she's older than
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: them and you know, more experienced the way that you
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 3: experience life more when you are older, I don't think
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: it's trying to make you uncomfortable about like, oh it's
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: this you know, older person exploiting this power dynamic. It's
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 3: more just like a haha, look at these young duficices
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: who have this awesome opportunity to get with this sexy
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: older woman. I feel like is how everything is framed, and.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: If that is the way we're supposed to read it.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 1: The ending bugs me a little more because I guess,
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: like I just maybe it's a personal thing. But like
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: once you see her at a doctor's office, I was like,
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: with all due respect, she's fucking toast. Like that felt
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: clear to me. Very early in this viewing, which is
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: the first viewing in ten years, I didn't fully remember
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: the ending, but it was like, Okay, she is just
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: not operating on anything other than I want to feel
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 1: as organically good and cathartic and connected to life as
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: I can in the limited time I have left, which
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: is a beautiful premise within the way, you're just like,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 1: oh my god, I don't know, Adrena, how do you feel?
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 1: I just like she's so challenged because I love Luisa
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: and like, from certain viewings, I want her to have
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: everything she does. I am amazed and sometimes kind of
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: like how can she send me notes of like her
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: capacity to forgive something? I really loved about her and
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: was like, wow, this is it just felt like very
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 1: unique and I was like, wow, men wrote this? Who
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: told them? Was that? How she clearly feels it's like
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: her last days and she feels the need or desire
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: to provide grace to people in her life, specifically Hanoh,
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 1: who has cheated on her. She has known about this
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 1: for a long time and she both doesn't want to
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: be with him and she doesn't want him to lose
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: her feeling that she is angry with him, but it's
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: killing her, and it's like it's so again, in a
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: lesser movie, it would be horrible because you would just
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: be conditioned to be like, oh, and women are inherently
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: graceful and women are forgiving and women are capable of
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 1: blah blah blah blah blah. But you can see and
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: I appreciate that the movie took the time to say
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: that she feels it is her choice to provide this grace,
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: but it is also very very painful for her. Yeah,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: And that was like, I don't know, I appreciated them
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: showing both of those things.
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of interesting, like you said, Jamie, like
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: there's this complexity that Luisa is written with that a
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 3: lot of women characters are not in a way that like, again,
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: in a lesser movie, if there was a female character
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: who was often crying as we do see Luisa do, yes,
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 3: you know, her pain wouldn't be contextualized, it would be
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: almost made a joke of like women are so emotional
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: and they're always crying over everything. But you come to
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: learn like why she's in all of this emotional pain
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: and this like push and pull of wanting to reclaim
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 3: her autonomy and like her freedom in her last weeks
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: of her life and you know, make active choices and
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: just like go on at an adventure almost while she
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: still can and pray. But she's also dealing with an
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: active breakup. She has left her partner, and she knows
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: what that's going to do to him, she knows how
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: much it is already hurting her. You know, there's all
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: these components.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: It's so hard because it's like I do think that
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: Louis some of her actions on its face, especially the
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: first quote unquote seduction is I think like actively coercive
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: at least where he comes in looking for shampoo and
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: she's like, no, take your towel. And I think that
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: based on our conversation, I don't think for you know,
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 1: two thousand and one or nineteen ninety nine, where the
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: movie is taking place, that we're supposed to feel like
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: this is a coercive situation. But I think on its face,
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 1: it is yeah, and I don't want to shy away
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: from that. And in the same way, we're given a full,
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 1: complicated context for this character that I feel like really
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: leaves it to the viewer to decide how they feel
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: about her actions. And I think every viewer is going
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: to feel some gradient about her actions based on their
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: own life experience because we are given I was like
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 1: impressed it the amount of information that we're given about Louisa.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Where she lost her parents young, she became the caretaker
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: of a sick relative who she loved very dearly, very young,
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: and that influenced the compromises she made throughout her life.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: And it just doesn't seem like she has gotten to
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: have her big adventure and now she suddenly finds out
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: that her life is ending after having one serious relationship
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 1: that ended in a partner's death and a second serious
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: relationship that ended in devastating infidelity, and so it's there's
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: no like, I'm not trying to excuse her actions. And
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: I also think that we are given so much information
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 1: about the context of her actions that I just I
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: really love her, and it's like, in many ways, she
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: didn't have a shot at what she deserved to have,
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: and it seems like she knows that to an extent
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: and wants to end life on her own terms. And
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 1: I also really appreciate that this section where she is
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 1: hooking up with even if they're elder teenagers, that's objectively weird.
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 1: No matter where you're at in your life, it's objectively weird, Like,
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 1: at very least, it is weird.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 3: If you're an adult, you should not do anything with
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: anyone who is still in high school. I think that's
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: a rule to live by, regardless of how old they are,
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: especially if you've.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: Gotten to know them and you're like, yeah, they're obviously
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: kids spiritually.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 2: At some point, she says that she remembers him when
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: he was a kid and he was crying because he
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: wanted to the thundercut a thundercat.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, Which is I feel like we most frequently
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: see that dynamic post against young girls in a sexualized way,
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: where it's like, I knew you when you were a child,
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: and now you are my.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: Wife grown up? How are we?
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: When I think about it. It's also that back in
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: two thousand and when this movie was filmed, we never
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 2: thought about the older women being with younger boys. Or teenager. Yes,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: spread there was a way. This is like a recent
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: conversation and maybe the writers weren't thinking about it that way,
• 1:22:45
  Speaker 2: which is a problem.
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: But well that's the thing that, like I wrote down
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 1: in my notes because I watched the movie twice a
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 1: prep and like pretty like midway through the movie and
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: my first viewing as like as uncomfortable it is, I remembered,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 1: like at my core that Louisa as a character that
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: I really liked throughout the movie. But if the gender
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: dynamics of this movie were flipped, I would have a
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: much harder time with this movie. And again I'm not
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: pro gender like flipping movies because that is very like
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 1: prescriptive in itself, but it was something I thought about
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: where I was like, if this was a man in
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: his late twenties early thirties at the end of his
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 1: life on a road trip with two teenage girls, would
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 1: I feel differently? And the answer was absolutely yes, I
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 1: would feel differently, And so I wanted to acknowledge that
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: in this episode because that is not the way this
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: movie was written, I think, very intentionally, but I think
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 1: it is important to consider the dynamics even.
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: If it wasn't an older man with it would be weird.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 1: It would also be weird. Yeah, right, either.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 2: Way, you see it, it's weird.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 3: Yes, But I think you're right about the cultural climate
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: of the time did not perceive relationships between older women
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: and younger men are teen boys as predatory. It was
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: always framed as.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 1: Like sexy, look at these.
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: Cool young studs, Like getting with this older woman, isn't
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: that awesome.
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 2: There was an episode of Dozn't Screak? Do you remember that? Yes?
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: Yes, I didn't watch that show.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: Oh god, I'm trying to think of There's a book
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 1: written by recent guests of the podcast Alyssa Nutting that
• 1:24:49
  Speaker 1: sort of examines this same dynamic. It's a book called
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: Tampa about an abuser, that is an adult woman who
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: abuses younger men. And so I think that like, it
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: is something that absolutely happens and is still not really
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 1: culturally understood because there is such a shame dynamic of like,
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 1: if you are a young man or a man in
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: general that has experienced sexual abuse from a woman, that
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: there is something emasculating about that versus something that is
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: just abusive.
• 1:25:29
  Speaker 3: And the expectation that if you are a man, you
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: are just supposed to be so horny and so ready
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 3: at any time to receive the you know, sexual attention
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: of a woman because of like heteronormativity and just yeah,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 3: that very harmful expectation that strips men of their agency
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 3: and their ability to withhold consent and say no.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, My guess is the writers and the director were
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: not really thinking about any of that, And I'm guessing
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: they're like, well, we showed these guys as sexual beings.
• 1:26:10
  Speaker 3: The movie literally opens with one of them having sex,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: and then moments later we see the other one have sex.
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: So I'm guessing they're like, oh, you know, this is
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 3: not predatory or abusive. They're sexual people. And they also
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 3: come on to her, like they approach her at the wedding,
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 3: they like almost comically charge at her, they like lunge
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: at her at the wedding. So they're probably like, all right,
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 3: we did enough to suggest that this was all totally
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: fine and consensual and blah blah blah.
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: So and Luisa is desperate also like yeah.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 3: Not that that excuses you know, predatory behavior, but yes,
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 3: she is acting out of desperation.
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, she's like, oh, these guys are hitting on me.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: They invited me to the beach. I have nothing else.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 3: She's nothing to lose. I mean, she's she knows she
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: will die soon, right, She's like, it's not an excuse.
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: It does seem like before this was a cultural concept.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: She's like, who's gonna cancel me if I'm dead? And
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 1: that does kind of seem like her vibe and like
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: and again, this is like the eternal not that we
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: find ourselves in on this show and in the world
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: where it is very difficult to rationalize a complex female
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: character that is written by two brothers. You're like, Okay,
• 1:27:35
  Speaker 1: this woman is not real and I love her, but
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: she is not real, and so it's difficult and I
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 1: have to keep reminding myself of that. But I guess
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: I want to like take a step back from what
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: the intention of the movie is because it's very hard
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: to know, I think, especially for me, because like I
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 1: am not these two gen X brothers, and I also
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: am not familiar with the dynamics in Mexico at this time,
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: and so with Luisa, like there are moments where Luisa
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: is really calling them out in a way that feels
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: very telling, and depending on how you view these dynamics
• 1:28:14
  Speaker 1: can kind of ring hollow. But I felt like Luisa
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 1: almost acts as and I'm curious if, however, feels about it,
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: because she knowingly enters this dynamic with these two teenagers
• 1:28:30
  Speaker 1: who she knows are kind of full of shit, and
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that she knows that they have a
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: destination in mind. When she gets in. She just wants
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 1: an adventure and that's great, and so she's like, I'm
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: going to get in the car and where we end
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 1: up is where we end up, fuck it and we'll
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 1: just see what happens. Yeah, But because she wants to
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 1: know about them and she wants them to know about her,
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: I feel like she ends up teasing out all of
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 1: these toxic qualities them and challenging them in a way
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: that we don't usually see in movies, where she asked
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 1: them like ways that I think KAPSI. It is pretty
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: creepy questions about Like again, if we flip the dynamics,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: if we have a thirty something year old man asking
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: two teen girls how they have sex, I would be like, blitz,
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: get me out.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 3: Of here, not want to see it.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 1: But with these dynamics, it's like there's a way to
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: look at it where she's having them challenge their own
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 1: naive masculinity and trying to understand how they view women,
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: because they view women horribly throughout. And I think that
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 1: that's like one of the sad slash true things about
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 1: this movie is that I don't necessarily know that having
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: been on this journey improves to Notch and Julio's opinion
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: of women. I think that they just meet one that
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: they liked and then she died.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: No, they will be as whoso older lives.
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and have.
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: Proofs, but I have no doubt.
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: We've all lived. We have theories.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 2: Then at the ending, the narrator says that they broke
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: up with their girlfriends as soon as they came back
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 2: from Italy, and the notes started seeing his neighbor right away,
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 2: and to Julio, it took him nine months to date someone.
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think there should be a sequel or just
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 3: like another movie in the Itomama Tambian cinematic universe that
• 1:30:42
  Speaker 3: follows Anna and Cecilia while they go around Europe having
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: fun adventures. And where's that movie? Anyway? Back to Luisa,
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 3: I wish that this like exploitative and predator dynamic was
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 3: absent from the movie because it would just make it
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 3: so much easier to like. But also, you know, women
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 3: are complicated too.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: But I don't even know if I want more movies
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: in this universe because it is so uniquely complicated to
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: this moment that you're just like, I don't know if
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: I want Quann to like try to course correct on
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: some of the more glaring aspects of this movie, Like,
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: they are what they are, and they're fucked in some ways,
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: and it's interesting to talk about it because of how
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: the world has changed. But I don't know, Luis is dead,
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? Honestly, I think normally at
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: the end of a movie, if you're like and the
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: woman does, you're like, well, that sucks, because that always
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: like the woman has served her purpose and now she
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: can disappear into vapor. But in this movie, I did
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: not feel that way. I felt like, independently, there are
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: two really strong narratives in this movie. One is Luis's
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 1: and one is the friendship between the two guys, and
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: they're both equally impactful. And again, I feel like when
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: I watched this movie for the first time, I was
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: way more invested in the guys, and in this time,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: I am like Louisa coated and I'm way more invested
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 1: in Louisa.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: Same. And when I saw Way Back, I was like, oh,
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: they're so fun and I love them and I was
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 2: a teen movie, finally, a Mexican teen movie. And now
• 1:32:41
  Speaker 2: that I saw it, it's not a teen movie, right,
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: I mean it is, but it's not. It's a movie
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: about bands than growing up.
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: But I think it's cool that it can be seen
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 1: as a teen movie too, Like there's so many layers
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: to it. It's like you can watch this movie as
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: a teenager and be like, oh, yeah, that's how teen
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 1: boys view teen girls generally based on my lived experience,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: and then you can grow up and watch it and
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: be like, oh, they were trying to say something by
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: allowing those teen boys to talk about teen girls this way.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that that excuses it, because again,
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: we only see what are their girlfriend's names, Anna and Cecilia. Yes,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 1: at the very very beginning, and that is where it
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: passes the back to test normal. The two girls are
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: talking about like, I can't wait to be able to
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: plane and the other one's like, I know because they
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's implied that they're kind of also
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 1: sick of the guys.
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure.
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: It passes when Louisa talks to the old woman and yes, yes,
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: and when Lisa talks to my Belle, yes, and before
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 2: the guys wake up, Louisa is having breakfast and she's
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: asking Mavela and her daughter about the names of the downs.
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: Wow, it does feminist masterpiece.
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: I mean there were moments. I mean, I'm not trying
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: to say that there were not moments where women connected
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: in this movie, but most of them were like not
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: thoroughly included on screen or like mostly told that they
• 1:34:21
  Speaker 1: had happened by the narrator. But I feel like that's
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: I think again. We most recently came across this specific
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: issue in our Virgin Suicides episode, where often many conversations
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: between girls or women were very fleeting because the main
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: narrator seemed to be an adult man remembering something and so,
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: which is like what the Virgin Suicides is, and that's
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: like part of why. And I think Louisa suffers from
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 1: this less But I do think to some degree where
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 1: it's like we don't know who the narrator is, but
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: they seem to be recalling something and they have some
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: godlike knowledge of what happens to these characters down the line,
• 1:35:07
  Speaker 1: or what has happened to anyone we encounter or any
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 1: place we encounter before we get there. That like it
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: is a man remembering or presenting something, and so sometimes
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: they will present what happens between women, and then we
• 1:35:24
  Speaker 1: only see what happens between women in kind of a
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: fleeting way, which is a weird specific thing. But yeah,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: that's also the virgin suicides.
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so, now that.
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: I think about it, Anna and Cecilia weren't very good
• 1:35:36
  Speaker 2: friends either. They fucked each other's boyfriends.
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, right, which I kind of like that
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: they like because it's like, I do think men have
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: an issue with infidelity, but I do think it's also
• 1:35:48
  Speaker 1: a human problem.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: Sure, I think everyone feels different about this, but I
• 1:35:53
  Speaker 1: like that there it was acknowledged that. It's like the
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: boys were so quick to be like, our girlfriends are faithful,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: but if we are horny and want to cheat on them,
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 1: that's awesome. Like it's just like classic.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 3: It's a loud and it's great.
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's like classic misogyny one oh one, where
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 1: it's like if a woman does what I do, she's
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: a slut. But if I do what I do, I
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 1: fucking rule, which is very much their like creed. It's
• 1:36:21
  Speaker 1: like in their fucking creed.
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: I was going to say that that's very Mexican, but
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: I think that's universal.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, just a few other things I want to shout
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 3: out about Luisa. I really liked the little narrative we
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 3: get mostly in voiceover that also sort of addresses her
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 3: class and circumstances, where again we learned that she had
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: to start taking care of an ill relative and she
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 3: had to become I think, like a dental technician. Yeah,
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 3: something like that when she was sixteen, and then she
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 3: met Hano not long after that, and then they got married,
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 3: so she didn't really have the opportunity to go to
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 3: university and get the education that Hano and all of
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 3: his friends have. Because there's the voiceover that explains how
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 3: she would be with them and they'd be talking about
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 3: you know, philosophy or politics, and either to earnestly try
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 3: to include her or with mal intent try to expose her,
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 3: they would you know, be like, oh, what do you
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 3: think about this quote unquote intellectual topic? And then she
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: would always say, you know, I don't know anything. About that,
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: and how she wished she could be like, well, yeah,
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 3: you were talking about all this fancy schmancy philosophy stuff,
• 1:37:50
  Speaker 3: but can you name all the teeth? And how just
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 3: like again, her circumstances led her to this situation where
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 3: she now can't help but feel insecure about the situation
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 3: she often finds herself in. And how again, that's like
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: just a relatable thing that a lot of people experience,
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 3: and I like that her character was enriched with that detail.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 3: I love her monologue where she's being like, you guys
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 3: are babies and pigs and your hypocrites, and here's my manifesto.
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 3: If you want to keep hanging out with me, here's
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 3: everything you have to do. And just how she rattles
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 3: off all of these rules, I just thought was it's great.
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: I loved it, and I also wasn't Maybe I'm in
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: a cynical phase of life, but like, I felt very
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 1: cathartic when she rattled off the rules, and I also
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 1: is very unsurprised when it blew up in her face
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 1: because men are horrible and that's a Missandra's statement that
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: I just made. But I just feel like she took
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 1: I think in a like twenty seventeen movie, it would
• 1:39:10
  Speaker 1: be like, I'm taking control of this now, and now
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 1: I make the rules and the history of patriarchy is
• 1:39:17
  Speaker 1: erased and everything works out in my favorite and you're
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: just like, well, what if we learned in the past
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 1: ten years. If not, it is more complicated than that,
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 1: and we have to engage with that idea in order
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 1: to make actual progress. I don't know, I'm bringing a
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 1: very twenty twenty three thought process to that. But it
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: was interesting that this two thousand and one movie was like,
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: I'm taking control of this. Oh, you're still driving the car,
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: you still have the power, you still have the class
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: dynamic OVERB and I can want this and still have
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 1: to try another way to live the way that I
• 1:39:55
  Speaker 1: want to live. Right, I hate it, but also it
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: feels accurate.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, also unpopular opinion. She takes charge just after the
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 2: two teenage boys do what teenage boys do is like, well,
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: you kind of know what you were getting into.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 1: Well, I think again, it's like I think that if
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 1: the gender dynamics were swapped, that would be like what
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: we would automatically say. Right, It's like she is very
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 1: much an adult woman who I don't know. Yeah, like
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 1: in that moment, you're like, we know, well, I guess
• 1:40:33
  Speaker 1: we don't technically know that she is going to die.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 1: But again, I mean, maybe I'm just using my big
• 1:40:40
  Speaker 1: old thirty year old brain to be like, yeah, I
• 1:40:45
  Speaker 1: knew she's gonna die, but it felt pretty clear that
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: like she was not acting normally in this situation. This
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 1: is not something she would do every day.
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the movie wants to trick you into thinking
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: that she's doing everything because Hano cheated on her. And
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: then the yeah, the twist comes.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 3: M hmm, which I think is excellent screenwriting because even
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 3: though we see this scene that foreshadows the information that
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 3: she passes away because we see her at the doctor's
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 3: office and the doctor kind of like ominously closes the
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 3: door like right in the camera's face, And once you
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 3: find out what happens to her at the end, you're like, oh, yeah,
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 3: that was foreshadowing. But what seems to be the function
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 3: of that scene is her taking that quiz at the
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 3: doctor's office and like learning about how much she's a
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 3: strong independent woman, which I think is like a brilliant
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 3: piece of screenwriting because it's like all of these things
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 3: are happening the audience is tricked into thinking that one
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 3: function is being served, but it's also like multiple things
• 1:41:51
  Speaker 3: are happening and being foreshadowed, and you don't realize all
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 3: of it until the very end. And it's great writing.
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 2: Kaitlyn, you know so much about screenwriting. Why is that?
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I wonder why. Well, it wouldn't be
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 3: because I got a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University,
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 3: because I would not mention that.
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: Surely there's no way Audrianta had knowledge of this, So
• 1:42:14
  Speaker 1: that's like incredible.
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 2: I had no idea it and.
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: Now I've learned no id.
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, but yeah, I feel like all of this
• 1:42:24
  Speaker 3: space too, Like I think that this is a movie
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 3: that is like I want to watch it again in
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 3: another ten years and see how I feel about it then,
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 3: because it's again like I know, the difference between twenty
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 3: and thirty is big, but it's like, my feelings about
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 3: this movie changed drastically, not just because of like my
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 3: stage of life, but just because of the world and
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 3: because of the basic knowledge that I had about countries
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 3: that were not the one I grew up in.
• 1:42:55
  Speaker 1: And this is a really fascinating movie to come back
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: to and I'm looking forward to coming back to it again.
• 1:43:03
  Speaker 1: And I also think that like we've touched on that
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: multiple times, but I guess I just wanted to say
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 1: one more time that I think that very often in
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: coming of age movies about young men, that they speak
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: very dismissively and objectively and horribly about young women in
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: their life in a way that is deeply uncritical, and
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: present it as if like, well, of course we all
• 1:43:32
  Speaker 1: feel this way. I think that's like how movies about
• 1:43:36
  Speaker 1: young men have been presented for generations. And I appreciate
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: that while the young men in this movie do speak
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: horrifically about women consistently, and I would say basically right
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 1: to the very end of the movie, I think it
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: is presented in a critical way, and it is presented
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: in a way that is like, not only is the
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 1: way that these young men view the women around them
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: oppressive and horrible and offensive and insulting, it is also
• 1:44:12
  Speaker 1: preventing them from being people. And it's like, I feel
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 1: like it presents it in a way that because we
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: do care about Tanaje and about Julio, it's like a
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 1: far more difficult thing to grapple with where you're like
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 1: you're almost dealing with masculinity and patriarchy as a concept
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 1: as opposed to like patriarchy the guy, which we're always
• 1:44:37
  Speaker 1: talking about.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: Right true. Also, Jamie, not to call you out, but
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 3: you sound so tired because I know it's like late
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 3: where you are.
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, it's ten twenty two pm, and I am
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: horizontal to sound horizontal because I am leave this in.
• 1:44:55
  Speaker 1: I want people to know. You know how hard I
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: work so horizontally this show.
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 3: I actively have COVID right now, I know, and look
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 3: at us working so hard to bring people the Bechdel Castle.
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 3: I just mentioned that because we should wrap up soon.
• 1:45:16
  Speaker 3: But just a rapid fire list of little things I
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 3: want to say. I love when they toast to the glitters?
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: Uh that's her last supper?
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: Oh she toasted the glitter? Is that her last supper?
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 1:45:30
  Speaker 1: What marked you watch?
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 3: Damn right? I think it's hilarious that Julio named his
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 3: dick resputant. So Jamie, that's something that's a little treat
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 3: for you.
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: I feel like I appreciate it as a respute and
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: head right.
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 3: I love that you get horny women representation because between
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 3: Anna Cecilia and Luisa they're horny and I love to
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 3: see it. And then I guess the final thing I
• 1:46:01
  Speaker 3: want to touch on briefly is just comparing American movies
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 3: representation of Mexico versus a Mexican director in his Portrait
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 3: of Mexico, and how widely different they are, because in
• 1:46:18
  Speaker 3: so many, like Hollywood movies, Mexico is depicted as this
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 3: like homogeneous, dangerous, just all of these like things that
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 3: carry all these horrible connotations. And I don't know how
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 3: much we've dived into this in the show, but that
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 3: like yellow filter that often is placed anytime characters go
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 3: to anywhere in Latin America. This also happens when characters
• 1:46:44
  Speaker 3: go to the Middle East, just to sort of suggest, like, oh,
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 3: what a foreign land we're in, and isn't it so bizarre?
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 3: And then when you have filmmakers who are handling their
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 3: own stories and setting a movie in their own country,
• 1:47:04
  Speaker 3: the difference is night and day. When you have someone
• 1:47:08
  Speaker 3: who is taking the time to represent and paint a
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 3: portrait of their home with respect and nuance, the way
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 3: that again so many Hollywood movies do not bother to
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 3: do when setting a scene or a whole movie in
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 3: another country, so I just wanted to touch on that.
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that too. I love that there is
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: a movie out there that is about high school students
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: that came out when I was a high school student
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: and I had these road trips. I was a nerd,
• 1:47:47
  Speaker 2: so they were more boring that this road trip. But yeah,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: I went to a couple go with friends and stay
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 2: at these really cheap hotels, and it brings out many
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: memories and that's the way I spoke, That's the way
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: I lived my life. So it's a movie about people
• 1:48:08
  Speaker 2: like me, well not me me, because I was more
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: like Sicilianana, but more like people I knew. And I'm
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: really grateful to go on for giving my generation a
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: movie about about us and how we grew up and
• 1:48:24
  Speaker 2: how we saw the country change from having like these
• 1:48:30
  Speaker 2: guys dictatorship and seeing it turned into a democracy. And
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: we were so hopeful when that happened. When the same
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: political party lost, everyone was shocked and happy and hopeful.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 2: And if you want to know what came next, read
• 1:48:47
  Speaker 2: the news. Read the book wasn't very good. So it's
• 1:48:53
  Speaker 2: like a portrait of that moment when people like me
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: were finishing high school, becoming an adult and the country
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: was becoming a democracy and all that hopefulness. It's portrait
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: in this film, and I love it and it has
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: its problems. Yeah, And also Diego and Guyle in Mexico,
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: we're so proud of them. We love them so much.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I speak for all of Mexico,
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 2: but they've done so much for Mexican cinema because they
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: all the money they earn in Hollywood, they spend in
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 2: producing good movies in Mexico, and they have they have festivals,
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: they pay for festivals, and they bring those festivals to
• 1:49:35
  Speaker 2: all all of Mexico. And and they're like unproblematic as
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: far as I know.
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 3: We always have to say, as far as we know
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: at the time of this record, they're okay to like.
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: As far as I know, they're unproblematic, and they're really
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: cool and they help a lot of the community and
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: they have nonprofits and I love them so much both.
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 2: It was my favorite way too.
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, they're the best. Yes, we already talked
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 3: about the movie passing the Bechdel test in the specific ways,
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 3: So shall we just move on to the Nipple scale,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 3: our famous Lawless scale on which we rate the movie
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 3: based on examining it through an intersectional feminist lens zero
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 3: to five nipples. I suppose I would kind of do
• 1:50:30
  Speaker 3: like the Bechdel cast cheat code and sort of split
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 3: this down the middle, because, as we've discussed, I think
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 3: it does a lot of interesting things to examine a
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 3: really complicated and extremely grounded and authentic male friendship and
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 3: the way that high school boys tend to be and
• 1:50:56
  Speaker 3: how they especially in this era of like the early
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 3: I guess this was taking place in the late nineties,
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 3: Like attitudes towards women. They're very casually throwing around homophobic
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 3: slurs and calling each other homophobic slurs. They make disparaging
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 3: remarks about sex workers and different things like that, Like
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 3: these are classic late nineties teen boys. But the movie
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 3: is examining that in a way that feels critical, and
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 3: often by way of Luisa calling them out for their
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 3: behavior and their toxicity and fragility and things like that.
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 3: I don't even want to get back into the whole
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 3: age gap dilemma, but it is there, and it does
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 3: cast a big nasty cloud over the movie for me.
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 3: But yeah, if you're able to set that aside, Luisa
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 3: as a character is a really cool, well rounded, dynamic,
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 3: interesting character that again we don't often see afforded to
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 3: women in movies. So there's a lot of things going on,
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 3: some good, some bad. Again the centering of like these
• 1:52:16
  Speaker 3: white characters, and only while it does point out and
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 3: tell little vignettes about other characters that they encounter or
• 1:52:28
  Speaker 3: you know, pan over to an indigenous person, the movie
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 3: is still centering these young, privileged people. So two point
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 3: five nipples, and I'll give one to my first husband,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 3: Gail Garcier Brnal, I'll give my second nipple to my
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 3: other husband, Diego Luna, and I'll give my half nipple,
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 3: and I should just give all two and a half
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 3: to Marbelle verdu So. Two and a half nipples and
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 3: the cast gets them.
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna go. I'll round it up to three.
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 1: For this movie, I think that the two things that
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: are most challenging for me is the very ambiguous age gap,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: at least in the translation that I watch, regardless of
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: her life circumstance, which is dire and we know that,
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: but it's like there is a very predatory way to
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: look at the dynamics in this movie, and I don't
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: want to shy away from that because it is a
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: woman with two young men, because I feel like that
• 1:53:36
  Speaker 1: is a very common thing that the culture at large
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 1: is still struggling with, and I don't want to reduce that.
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 1: And I think it is complicated by the fact that
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: this is a fictional woman like and I say older women,
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: but a woman who could very well be younger than
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: everyone on this call, like, written by two adult men
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: in their forties. And so there is the complication of
• 1:54:02
  Speaker 1: when we have women characters written by men that you're
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: just like, I cannot judge all of society by how
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: these two brothers chose to write this woman who doesn't exist.
• 1:54:15
  Speaker 1: It becomes a clusterfuck. However, that dynamic is very real,
• 1:54:18
  Speaker 1: and especially in like one specific twenty minute chunk of
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: the movie, it was uncomfortable, and I don't want to
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 1: shy away from feeling uncomfortable about it because I feel
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: like that is inherent to it. That was difficult for me.
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: And then I think the other part is a little
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: trickier for me because it does center white characters in
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: a way that is more mindful of what these upper
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: class white characters are ignoring or are you know, sort
• 1:54:51
  Speaker 1: of empowered to ignore. It is acknowledging that in a
• 1:54:57
  Speaker 1: way that I don't think I I've seen in a
• 1:55:01
  Speaker 1: way that didn't feel pandering or condescending in any other
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: teen movie, coming of age movie, road trip movie that
• 1:55:10
  Speaker 1: I can think of off the top of my head.
• 1:55:14
  Speaker 1: And so I think that it is sort of doing
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: a lot of what we've seen in movies at the
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: genre before, but doing it at a higher level, a
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: more thoughtful level, and in a way that didn't feel
• 1:55:27
  Speaker 1: as fucked up or totally just erasing people. And that's
• 1:55:33
  Speaker 1: not to say that it is perfect. It definitely isn't,
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 1: which is part of why it is losing two nipples
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: in my estimation. So I'm going three nipples. Rip Luisa
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: shoes a real one. She deserves better. And I too
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 1: feel like foam ocean blah blah blah whatever. I do
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 1: feel like this is something that I am going to
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 1: figure out at some later point. But I feel like,
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: very often I just want to like examine last words
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 1: in cinema because I have a feeling that most of
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: them mean basically nothing nothing. But it could be a
• 1:56:12
  Speaker 1: translation issue here, but in this one, I was like,
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: what the hell is she on about? And I can't
• 1:56:17
  Speaker 1: ask her because she was never real and also she's
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: fictionally dead. So anyways, I guess I'm giving one nipple
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: to each member of the main cast because all of
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: these dynamics, aside the performances in this movie are is like,
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: universally unbelievable, So one to each awesome.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna give it three. One for Maribelle Verdo, who
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: is also in Pants Labyrinth, Yes, yes, and who is
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: also in Flash.
• 1:56:51
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that's right, really mom?
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh I've.
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: Never seen that.
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 3: Well it's that DC movie that came out.
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: Oh it was the had One. Well that's not her
• 1:57:01
  Speaker 1: fault that Ezra Miller's a fucking evil criminal.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: Okay, well now we know she.
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: Has to hug as Remiller in the movie.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 2: I hope they paid her me too. Yeah. One for
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: Marievelle and one for both Chardo Lustras because in Mexico
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 2: we still call them lost Chao Lastras we kept the
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: nickname nice. And one for the pigs the pigs, yes,
• 1:57:33
  Speaker 2: the camp We leave the pigs alone.
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: They did nothing wrong, they.
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 2: Did nothing wrong.
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 3: They're just being pigs.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: They were just being pigs.
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: Leave my feral hogs alone.
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think I agree with what you say.
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's only one woman as the main character
• 1:57:52
  Speaker 2: in this movie, and the rest of the women come
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: and go. But for two thousand and one to be
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 2: a movie about toxic masculinity and the way it still
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 2: holds up at least that part, the way it criticizes
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 2: their friendship and the hypocrisy and the shallowness. Is that
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 2: a word shallowness?
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, did I just made it up? No, shallowness, the
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: shallowness of their friendship? Yeah, I think it that part
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: at least holds up very well, and I hope more
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 2: men think about it.
• 1:58:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 2: I wish more men learn something from that movie, because
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 2: I still know a bunch of people who are in
• 1:58:39
  Speaker 2: their thirties and forties whose friendship are still like that,
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: and I'm like, what.
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 3: Are you doing?
• 1:58:46
  Speaker 1: No, we can do nothing to help them. They have
• 1:58:50
  Speaker 1: to find out on their own. Yeah, Oh my gosh. Well, Aldrena,
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming on truly to cover
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 1: this wonderful and extremely complicated movie. Really appreciate it.
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 2: Thank you guys for inviting me. This is a dream.
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: I've been a fan of the Vecnyl cast since I
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: lived in Mexico. I wish I could go back to
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: the past until past Adriana driving her car to work
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: listening to the vecnel cast that someday she's gonna be
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 2: in it. This has been wonderful. Thank you. I admire
• 1:59:26
  Speaker 2: you both so much. You guys are great.
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 1: Likewise, thank you so much.
• 1:59:31
  Speaker 3: Thank you, and tell us what you'd like to plug.
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 3: And may I say before you even do that, that
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 3: I would like to give a ringing endorsement to Adriana's
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 3: Spanish tutoring. If you want to improve your Spanish or
• 1:59:49
  Speaker 3: start learning Spanish or anything like that, I highly recommend
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 3: Adriana's classes and services and she's incredible, so take them anyway. Adriana,
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 3: what would you like to plug?
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm on Instagram at Espanol. That's E s P
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: A n O L C O n A b R
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: I N A A. Maybe you can put it in
• 2:00:19
  Speaker 2: the show notes.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, don't.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me on Instagram and you can
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: DM me if you're interested. I can teach in person
• 2:00:32
  Speaker 2: around the LA area or through zoom wherever you are.
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 2: I think Kaitlin has a good experience.
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 3: See hell yeah, yeah, Well, thank you again so much
• 2:00:45
  Speaker 3: for joining us, and come back anytime please. You can
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 3: follow us on all of those horrible social media platforms.
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: You can find us at back Podcasts.
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 3: You'll find it there. And then we've got our our
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 3: Matreon at patreon dot com slash spctel cast, where you,
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 3: for five dollars a month can have access to two
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 3: bonus episodes every month, plus the entire back catalog, and
• 2:01:14
  Speaker 3: we always have just amazing, hilarious, awesome themes that should
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 3: be nominated for awards, you know, and.
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I think history will give us a word
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: for that, but unfortunately we would be rip'd by that time.
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: We will be yeah, and the cities we currently live
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: in will be underwater. However, while we are above ground,
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 1: you can get our merch at deepublic dot com slash
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: bechtel cast. And with that, let's all meet up in
• 2:01:48
  Speaker 1: a diner. But this time, let's continue to speak to
• 2:01:52
  Speaker 1: each other. We're changing, we're changing things this time, and
• 2:01:59
  Speaker 1: we are actually gonna get that coffee absolutely.
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 3: Bye, Adios