Latest / Leanne's Podcast / Marija’s Story

Transcript

Marija’s Story · Leanne's Podcast

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: Hello, I'm your host Leanne and welcome to Motherhood Honestly, where we get real about pregnancy, birth and motherhood.
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: The highs, the lows, and everything in between.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: Honest stories, messy moments, and sharing our journey together.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_01: Today's episode features a really important conversation.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: In the season finale of Motherhood Honestly, I'm joined by Maria.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_01: Today she will be sharing her experience with postpartum psychosis after becoming unwell at 28 weeks pregnant.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: What began with hearing voices quickly escalated and turned her world upside down.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: Her family and friends watched her become a different person, and after the birth of her son Max, she was admitted into a mother and baby unit.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: We talked today openly about maternal mental health and the challenges she's faced during her recovery.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: While some parts of the conversation are difficult, Maria's never stopped advocating for herself and women all around the country.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: She hopes that sharing her experience, more women feel seen, understood, and less alone.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: And as always, please listen gently and take care.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Are you definitely ready?
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the podcast, Maria.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: This is our second time doing this because I messed up the first time.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: This is we're recording this again, guys, because the microphone wasn't on for the first 20 minutes of Maria's story.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So she's back around again.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: It's Friday night.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_01: We're having a Pepsi Max.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: My footing the world to rights.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you again for coming on.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: I sort of spoke a little bit before the podcast just about your story, but I guess before all everything happened, tell me a little bit about you because I know you're married to your lovely husband Mike, and you've got two boys.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um so Max is six and Theo's eight.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I know you said you and Mike had like a textbook marriage.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me all about how you met and things like that.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so um Mike and I really did have a textbook sort of uh meet and marriage.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we met at university in Kingston, and um we ended up graduating.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um Mike got a job in London, I carried on and did a little bit more studying, and then we moved in together in London, brought our first blatt, then got engaged, and then decided to have children.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: So sorry, got married and then decided to have children.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: So what year did you get married?
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we got married in 2016, so it was congratulations.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on year four.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I've had enough already.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so talk to me about um your first pregnancy.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: So Theo is the oldest.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me all about that.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we got married in 2016, and um Theo was born in October 2017, so we started trying pretty much after the um after the wedding.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um we fell pregnant pretty quickly, and actually the pregnancy was lovely, really lovely.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I enjoyed having my bump.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I um I quite enjoyed being pregnant um and everything that comes with it.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was a pretty good pregnancy up until around sort of 38 weeks, and I was just measuring very, very large.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: Fine.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Theo was going to be a big boy, and uh, we all knew that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and by the time we got to 40 weeks, I very much said to the midwives, I really need to get him out.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: You've conserved your eviction then.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, without a doubt.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So um I um spoke to them and said, Um, you know, can we try and get an induction early?
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which they said they would try and do.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but unfortunately, just due to timings and everything, we had to wait till 42 weeks to um give birth to Theo.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you were like right at the end.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: We were right at the end as far as you could go, I guess.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: So we got in for the induction at 42 weeks, and um they they popped my waters, and actually, just while they were popping my waters, they asked me for a birth plan, and um I said I hadn't really got one.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: I was very much gonna go with the flow and listen to the doctors, yeah, because ultimately you put your trust in the medical staff there.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um I said to the lady, because I'd been reading up about shoulder dystocia, and I said to the lady, I think I'm gonna have one because Theo is measuring very, very large.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: And she said to me, Please don't think that it's quite a rare, a rare thing to happen.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me what what is shoulder dystocia?
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: So shoulder dystocia is when the baby's head is delivered, but their shoulders are stuck behind your pelvic bone.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um, yeah, so it can be quite an emergency for um for for some babies who are stuck because I think you have I read somewhere it's between six to seven minutes to get a baby out before they're starved of oxygen.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had this sort of premonition that I was going to have one of these births, and um I told the midwife, and she was like, Oh, she was really reassuring and said, please don't worry, please don't worry.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I did say to her, I really like a C-section, I think it'd be an easier birth because he's so big.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: I said again, please don't worry, it's your first baby, you know, you it you'll be fine.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and anyway, I was in labour for almost 24 hours since they popped my waters, and I had the induction on, and um, I'd decided to be a bit of a martyr and tried to do it without any pain relief.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, little did I know.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, like there's no time to be a hero during birth, guys.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: Take the drugs, um, so I tried with um gas and air at first, then went on to uh something called pethidin, and then decided to have the um epidural.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um so 9 a.m.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: arrived, and it was like, right, you're 10 centimetres now, let's push.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: And um was pushing for about two hours, maybe just under two hours.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's a long dying, isn't it?
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: It was a long time.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: And couldn't he wasn't budging.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the consultant was brought in, and um he had some medical students with him, um, and they decided that they were going to use a von Toos cap to try and get Theo out.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And what's that?
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: So that's like a little cap they put on their head to try and manoeuvre them out of your um vagina.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um vagina.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love your hand.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and anyway, Theo's head was so big that um it just didn't work.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: It just didn't work at all.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: And then they got the the um what do you call them?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: The c oh my goodness, saladongs.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: The salad tongs the forceps, forceps, exactly the proper name.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like the salad tongs.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you would never eat a Greek salad the same.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly right.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: They're the biggest saladongs you'll ever see.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: They're huge.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so um they gave me an epesiotomy, so they cut me just to get the um to get the forceps in, and with that they were pulling Theo out.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but unfortunately, like I'd said to the midwife at the start, we now had a situation where we were having a shoulder dystocia birth.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um the red button was pressed, Theo was um stuck inside me.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, his head was out, but um his body was still stuck inside me.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember having a clock right in front of me and I was looking at it and it said 11 o'clock, and I remember just counting down the minutes, thinking we've only got seven minutes, we've only got seven minutes.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: And Theo was finally born at 11:04 via um via the forceps, but I had to be put in some into a position called the McRoberts manoeuvre.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure it's called McRoberts, but um we may need to check that.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_00: We'll we'll check at the end, check at the end, fact check, yes.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: And what what um so what that is is basically they um the the team put your legs above your head and they start pressing on your stomach.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow so it I felt like I was being resuscitated.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: It was really scary, it was really scary.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_00: I remember feeling really, really scared um at that time, and actually something in my brain, I think I I don't know if I'd call it trauma, but something in my brain clicked, and I just thought I'm not gonna be the same person after this birth.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna be the same person.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like you felt that during the dream.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, yeah, it was a really strange sensation.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Theo was born healthy.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he was born healthy and he weighed 11 pounds.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So 11 pounds, yeah.
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: So he was a big boy, and actually, the amount of trauma he suffered in that pat in that birth, um, actually his weight was um was a godsend because actually he was able to withstand quite a lot of injury and the force of it all.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: So um we were quite lucky.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean he was battered when he came out, he was black and blue.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: But um and I suppose for you as well, you were well not in, you know, I'm sure you were in a lot of pain as well after the epidural wore off.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely, and I had a um a stage three C tear, so it was quite a nasty tear with Theo, and um I went into surgery straight away because I'd lost so much blood.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: Really, and I was in there for a few hours just being stitched up, yeah.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't see my baby, I didn't know how much he weighed at this point.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: My husband wasn't allowed in with me, so I was just in and out of consciousness.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's so scary, isn't it?
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was, it was really scary, it was really, really scary.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and actually, after I'd was stitched up and I was reunited with my baby and my husband, a number of doctors actually came over to me and actually said, You deserve an apology for that birth, like it shouldn't have been the way it was.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, so I did feel like something maybe wasn't quite right, but because it was the first time doing it, yeah, I didn't know what to expect.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, no, I think as you hit with a first-time mum, like you said, you go in with no not really a birth plan, you you you put your trust in the medical professionals, they're there to look after you, yeah, and they it wasn't the best care that you could have received, right?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly, exactly right.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I think just a bit more listening to the mother is probably what they need to do and actually ensure that babies and parent and mothers aren't separated.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, um, and the fathers are allowed into the the um operating theatre as well.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure so many women feel like that as well, though, as but you know, I think at the time, especially when you're in labour, like I I don't know about my myself, I can only speak for, but I found it quite hard to advocate for myself, yeah.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, because you're just in this completely unknown world, aren't you?
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: You you know, you haven't never given birth before.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's you know it's a clinical setting, and so I completely get it.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So gosh, but you were Theo was okay, and you were okay, and Mike was a dad, and it was all lovely.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we were fine, we were absolutely fine, and we left the hospital and we were feeling good, which was amazing, and we were a family of three, and really, really, really pleased to have our baby boy with us, so um, really happy.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then um I wouldn't say my mental health was affected by this, but I started getting night terrors at night just about Theo dying, and they started getting quite active in the sense that I'd be in bed, but I'd shoot up.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: I would try and get to the stairs because I would think I could see Theo hanging at the bottom of the stairs.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, and visions, visions, exactly, but I was fast asleep, and it was almost like the demons were coming out at night, and I was having these flashbacks of Theo being in a very precarious position.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but again, I I spoke to Mike about it, but I didn't speak to anyone else because I was fine, I was functioning in the day, yeah, I was getting on with my life, and um, yeah, things things were okay.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_00: I was working, so I didn't think anything of it, but um, but we did decide to take Theo's birth case to PALS, the patient uh advice liaison service, I think it's called.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and actually, we were then promised that the next time around, if we were to have another baby, that we would be given a consultant and I would be given the choice of having a cesarean if I wanted one, just due to the severity of Theo's birth.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I was really, really pleased and really pleased.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I met this lovely consultant called Ruth Curry, who is amazing.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Shout out, Ruth Curry.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And she just she just made me feel so much more at ease about having a second baby that I thought, do you know what?
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: We'll give it a little bit of time.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, I think settle into motherhood, I suppose, and then yeah.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: And then think about potentially expanding the family.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I guess now we're up to Max's pregnancy.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So you went on to decide to have another baby.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: So how old was Theo when you decided to have another baby?
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, so Theo and there's two years, three months between Theo and Max.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: So um Theo must have been oh one and a half.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 18 months old.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, roughly, roughly around that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: So he must have been around just over one.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: But we thought we'd try again, and actually, again, we fell pregnant pretty quickly, which was lovely.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: And the first sort of few weeks were were fine.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they were they were fine.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we were getting constant care from Ruth at the hospital, we were getting very regular checkups with her every four weeks.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was seeing her and seeing the midwife and had quite a nice start to the pregnancy.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um had the night terrors stopped?
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So they had stopped.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So that was good.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I was feeling a little bit better about that.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um the very start of Max's pregnancy was um a little bit turbulent because I had to have my gallbladder removed and didn't know.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, did you?
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I had my gallbladder out.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Not during when I was pregnant, but in lockdown, it's rough, isn't it?
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, it is, it really is.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would say that pain is up there with contractions.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, so I didn't know I was pregnant at the time, but we had the gallbladder removed and um because I was in agony with gold stones, um, and they um they couldn't believe I was pregnant after having the operation because I was just in that window of whether or not I was testing positive for pregnancy.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: So it was really early days.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we thought actually to ourselves that in actual fact, you know, Max's birth may end in end in something different because it's you know, I've had quite an invasive surgery, but actually Max was fine, so that was great.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so we're seeing Ruth, we are um we're having we're having a lot of care from the midwives, but then we got 26 weeks pregnant and everything changed.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: I started hearing voices, and when I say voices, I mean a voice, and it started very abruptly, and it it was a man's voice, and initially I thought someone was following me, um, because I I couldn't work out what was going on in my head, yeah.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And anyway, it transpired, nobody was following me, but these vo this voice was in my head and it was saying very negative things to me.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought I can't tell anyone about this because this is ridiculous, like this is ridiculous.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: And if you ask any of my close family or friends, I've never suffered with my mental health before.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: Never, never, so it would be it was just a huge shock that this was going on for me.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I kept this quiet.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um for about seven to ten days.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: I kept this quiet and just lived with it.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: And it all came to a head when one evening I was making a spaghetti bolognese and I my husband walked in and just said, Can I cut up that onion?
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, it solidified the voice that was being nasty to me for the past week and a bit.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: So this voice would be saying things like, You're a bad mother, you're a bad wife, you're a bad friend, you can't do anything, you are um, you know, you're a horrible person.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, it it just solidified the voice, and I just dropped down to the floor in a heap of a mess, and just cried and cried and cried.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then I told Mike what was going on in my head.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: So it was the first time you'd said to Mike, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can hear something.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: That I could that I aired it, yeah, and um he did not expect me to say that at all.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Oh my goodness, like what is going on?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, I fell into the deepest, darkest depression.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: So just uh to go back, so this voice was saying all these negative things to you, and Mike coming in and asking you, Shall I cut that onion?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: Was that like you didn't feel good enough to cook?
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's it, right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly right.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it just confirmed the voice in my head that actually I wasn't even good enough to cook a dinner, and from that day on I did not cook another meal um up until I gave birth to Max.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I refused to cook, I just couldn't do it.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then I fell into this depression, yeah, which uh basically started with me not being able to leave the house, not being able to get no know how to get out of bed in the morning.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, any sort of task was just too long for me to do.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd have to break down tasks into a couple of minutes.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um I stopped washing and showering.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: I just became a long yeah.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, washing my hair.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I've got quite long hair and you've got beautiful hair and it's um it was like a a ti a mission.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, it absolutely overwhelmed me to the point it would make me sick and give my I'd give myself diarrhea, that I'd be so anxious about doing something like that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just became a bit of a recluse and I just decided that actually I was gonna let this win in the sense that I was gonna stop doing things now.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was I was I was clearly in a state of depression.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the voice had won at this point.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: I know that you said to me when you sent over your notes that if you ever heard that voice, you know, you you you could recognise that voice anywhere.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Which is crazy, isn't it?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was crazy.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think um that Mike like took it seriously?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, yes.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I think he was very shocked to begin with to understand what was going on, but he took it very seriously, he was so amazing and so supportive throughout this whole process, and actually he was the one advocating for me as well.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, of course.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I suppose at this point you are like you just said, you've given up.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And around that time you were seeing the midwives, I suppose, but you said you um were seeing Ruth because she was obviously taking over your care, like she promised about the second baby.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_01: When were you when when were you seeing her?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we were seeing each other quite regularly, it's was around six to eight weeks, and um during that time we she obviously hadn't seen me for a little while.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I started to look a little bit grey.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And when she saw me, and actually the odd Deal of getting to the JR was an absolute nightmare.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: But when we got there and she um saw me, she couldn't believe her eyes.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Really?
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she couldn't believe her eyes.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: She was so shocked at how mentally unwell I'd become.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: That she actually gave me a scan just to see the baby, and I'd lost the ability to care or want to see the baby on the screen.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um we were like just checked out.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when she introduced she introduced the idea of going to see a psychiatrist, a perinatal psychiatrist.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: And she was like, okay, so she rang somebody and she rang someone downstairs and she said, um, we're gonna get you in with the perinatal psychiatrist.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: He's got a bit of a weight, but we're gonna get you in.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And within a couple of days, I was then going to see a psychiatrist, and I've never seen a psychiatrist before at this point.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, didn't know what to expect.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, I mean well, you wouldn't, you know.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, didn't know what to expect.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um, it was the most bizarre appointment.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: They're very black and white psychiatrists.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Like they are, yeah, they're very black and white, and they don't mind asking really tricky questions.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I remember going in and he said to me, he asked me why I was there.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: I told him about the voice, and he um he wanted to know a bit more about the voice in my head and um why I was so depressed and anxious about everything.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um I explained how I was feeling, and he'd asked me if I'd ever tried to hurt myself, and at this point I had not, um, or if I wanted to kill myself, and I remember being so taken aback by that question.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, why would you ask me that?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, it's not something someone would ask you.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've never ever ever felt like that.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've never once thought about hurting myself at this point, and I thought, do you know what?
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: This is really, really strange.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like you've just asked me that.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember feeling really uncomfortable in the conversation.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I I said, Well, no, of course not.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I've got a two-year-old boy that I need to look after, like he's he's my life, like you know, I've got I have got something to live for, yeah.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: And he was like, Okay, good.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think he was almost testing to see how far the depression had got to.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: But at this point you didn't know you were depressed.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I didn't, I just thought it was really sad.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I suppose um, like um for Mike watching that, yeah he advocated for you, like stay in touch when when you couldn't for yourself.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he did.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_00: He did, he was amazing, he was amazing, and this was so new to both of us, of course.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got to remember as well, your pre previous pregnancy was a breeze.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: It was not for birth, but yeah, he probably thought it's gonna be, you know, it's gonna happen again, it'll be lovely, sunshine and rainbows.
• 25:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly right.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: What happened after the psychiatrist?
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the psychiatrist um had basically advised me to go on medication, and I'd and when I say medication, antidepressants, yeah, so they wanted me to go on Certralein, which is quite a common antidepressant.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, um, and they said that it would be safe and I could take it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I remember Mike and I were querying whether or not it would be good for the baby.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, at this point, I didn't really care because I'd sort of lost a little bit of confidence.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_01: Not attached, disattached.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was disattached, yeah.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: I was completely.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Mike was like, okay, and the the psychiatrist basically broke it down really well and he said I want to get this right.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: He said the risk of your wife doing something unthinkable is far greater than this medication harming your child.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: So he was like, She has to take it, she has to take it.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: So um we left her, we left there with a box of searchraline, and um and I was away our away I went, and I was gonna go and have another appointment with him in a few weeks' time, so just to see how the surruline was going.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: So we got home, started taking the surruline, didn't do anything at this point, and I know he said it takes a few weeks to kick in, and you know what I level out, I suppose.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and symptoms can exacerbate, and um there could be you know side effects with obviously with the medication and things like that.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I was very much just waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting for this surrile to kick in.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and did you think um that it would magically cure you?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hoped it would.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really did.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, no, because uh you know, a lot of women who have had you know post-partum depression and postpartum psychosis, and for myself, I was like, this medication is gonna cure me and I'm gonna be healed, yeah.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and I think it's such they kind of put a little bit of an expectation that it's all gonna make it magically go away, but that's just not the case, is it?
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's really not, really not.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I think as well, there's an element of being a guinea pig when you've never taken antidepressants before, because not all antidepressants work for everybody, and there are so many variations of them, yeah, and it's what works for you as an individual person, yeah.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly right, exactly right.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, but it was probably a week in to taking the searchralean, and I remember um it was the first time I thought about harming myself, and um Theo had gone out with my auntie for the the afternoon just to the park, and I remember laying on the sofa and thinking I could just cut my wrists now and just bleed everywhere, or um, or take an overdose, and then Jane could find me and I would just be lying on the sofa.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: At least Theo would be looked after, and I remember having those thoughts, and I instantly picked up my phone, rang Mike, and said, Oh my god, this has just happened.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: I've just thought about this, I don't know what to do.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really, really scared.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember leaving the psychiatrist's office and he said to me, Whatever you do, you tell me the truth and you tell me exactly what's going on in your head.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: He said, Anything you think about, you have to tell somebody.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter how bad it is, because we can't treat you unless you're being honest.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so I really took that on board.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, any funny feelings I had, I would just tell Mike.
• 28:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would, uh like regardless if it was.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: He was, he was, he really was, he still is um, but um anyway, so we rang up the um secretary of um the psychiatrist that we were seeing and basically explained what was going on.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: We also looped in my consultant, and they said that I needed more urgent care around the clock.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I would be then sent through to the perinatal mental health team, which were a 24-hour um team that would look after ladies in their pregnancies and a year after birth, apparently.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I was now with the perinatal mental health team, and they had a number, they they sent somebody out to see me.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was very, very, very good.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I couldn't fault them.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: They're great, they're a great team.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: They are really, really good team.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were, yeah, they were amazing.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I was now seeing Ruth Curry very regularly as well.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I couldn't, I found it really hard to get out of the house, so it was really it was a real struggle to do those trips.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the time the cons the um perinatal mental health team would have to come to me, mental health, yeah, yeah.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because I just couldn't get out.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but anyway, their care was fantastic, but they they increased my sedriline.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: They just said we need to keep going, we need to keep going.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a psychiatrist f within the team actually said that um I'd need quatiapine, which is an antipsychotic medication.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_00: So they give it to people who have severe mental health illness, schizophrenia.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's basically a mood stabilizer.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So it would just help with the um with the voice, yeah, with the way I was feeling.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: It would just try and balance my mood.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I remember taking that, and that was the first thing that worked, as in it knocked me out.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Did yeah, and it was amazing.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember just thinking, oh my god, this is this is this is what I need to feel like.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just needed to be.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: Slept well, yeah, slept well.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Just really, really slept well.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um must have been like mentally exhausting.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: So like I say, you must have been so mentally you've got a toddler at home anyway, that's tiring, and then work and you're mentally exhausted.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like it must just have been so nice to have a little bit of a rest, I guess, from just all the outside noise, you know.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was it was so good to have a rest, and work were amazing at this point because I was only doing a couple of days a week um at work, but I struggled to get into the office, um, and they knew that things weren't very good at home.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: So they were very, very, very um, very good with me, yeah.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, gave me lots of support and encouragement.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was really, really useful, really helpful.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I was now on an extremely high dose of sertraline.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was working my way up with the cropiopine, and they'd also uh um prescribed me something called lorazopam, which basically again another very much makes you feel very zen.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, felt very sedated when I was on it.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I was and at this point and now I'm over 32 weeks pregnant, I'm getting on.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, really happening in like the space of six weeks.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, my goodness, I just dropped, completely dropped.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I said, the symptoms started with not wanting to socialise, not getting out of the house, feeling sick.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: I used to give myself diarrhea and and vomiting, just the thought of doing something I didn't want to do.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, even the thought of cooking or making something made me feel physically sick.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was now battling with trying to self-harm, it was just awful.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I hadn't thought about ending my life at this point.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: No, so um the odd time, so I'm just trying to think where we're at in the timeline now.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we're at around 32 weeks, so yeah, I had four weeks where things got even worse.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: So the odd occasion I would go out, I used to live in a um in an estate in Bista um called Beer Park, and um there was a nature reserve just behind our house.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I would sometimes do a little solo walk around there, and um I became obsessed with trees to the point where it was an unhealthy obsession with trees, to the where I would want to s want to feel the branches to see how much weight they would take.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was awful.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would go around studying the trees, and that was my one part of the day that I could I could go out and I could I could control it.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And no one knew about this at any point, it was just you.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not at all, no, and I didn't say anything at this point.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: No, I didn't, I kept this quiet and um but I eventually had to tell the team because it just got over it was just too over stimulating for me, and it just completely engulfed me.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I would so then it started to turn deeper to the fact that I didn't want to be alive anymore.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And um I became so set on killing myself that it's it just preoccupied everything.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um we ended up having to move my C C-section date because I just wanted to die.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: I then Mike then made me tell the team about the the obsession with the trees.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: I picked my trees, I knew which trees I wanted.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um I knew which one, so I was I would go and look at it a lot, and even now I sometimes walk if we ever do go to Bureau Park, which is very rare now because I had to have a lot of therapy around seeing trees again.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um I s I do look at it and I think about it, and I just think, God, it takes me back to that place, and it's it's like gut-wrenching, you know, of how you feel.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um takes you back to that time.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I'd a few things had happened between then and um seeing the team very regularly, seeing the psychiatrist very regularly.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I was adamant that I would give birth to the baby, but then I would kill myself.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And that is the deal I made with my husband because I could not live any longer.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: So you had a conversation with Mike about that's that was that was what they're gonna do.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: What was Mike's reaction to that?
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Like how tell me, like, how did he even find that?
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like I just I guess for you know, your husband and and your family as well.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how did he feel with that?
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because obviously, you know, you've got Theo at home as well.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: I know, yeah.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: He was he was I think he was heartbroken that I would say something like that, but he knew how ill I was, yeah.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: And he knew that we had a strong support network around me that wasn't gonna let me do that.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they were we did, we really did.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: We had a team of professionals, but we also had a team at home that were that were solidly looking after CEO.
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's so important.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: We had people around us that were to keep an eye on me constantly.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, but this was the deal I made, and I said to him, Nothing's gonna stop me.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is what I need to do.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they moved my C-section from 38 weeks to 36 and a half weeks, and they were like, Do you know what?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: We like to keep the baby in, but actually, in your case, this baby needs to come out now, like it's just you know, it's just so bad.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And also, there was an element of hormones going back to normal, sure, and actually, maybe I could get better, yeah, absolutely.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: So they probably thought, you know, baby's out, you might not return to normal, but you I know what you mean though, yeah, kind of get back on a normal level, exactly, yeah, exactly.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um so that was one of the best trips I had out of that entire time getting to the hospital because I knew if I could get the baby out, yeah, I could just do what I want, and um I had the planned section, and if I wasn't so mentally ill, I would have really enjoyed that.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, like, how it was so different, yeah, it was so different, everyone was so chill and calm.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I had a whole team of people from the mental health team with me, yeah.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, anaesthetists and obviously Ruth, who was doing the um cesarean um and her team.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: So there were a lot of people in the room, but um Which could be quite overwhelming.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: It can be, it's not the nicest, nicest time, is it, you know, to have all those people sort of around watching you?
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's quite daunting, and that's just in a normal C session, yeah.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: You know, um with yourself, I guess you had a lot more of an audience, we'll call it.
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, yeah.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: We had a lot of people.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the anethetist coming in and being like, Why are there so many people in here?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but I say this now um as fortunately, but I don't mean it.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but at that time, Max was delivered safely.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it was he was healthy, he was fine.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: What was his weight?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: So bearing in mind, bearing in mind he's 36 and a half weeks gone.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Nine pounds.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_00: No, nine pounds on the dot.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_00: So imagine if they'd left him in till 42 weeks.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: He'd be bigger than Theo.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I just carry really big babies.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, look, they're healthy, they're happy.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: They eat a lot now.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, they don't stop.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: They eat more than I do.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: My food shop's failed.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: Literally.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Max had had issues with his breathing, so um I remember they put him on my face because I just remember feeling like I was I couldn't move.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember feeling like this is really weird, and I need you to remove him from off of me immediately, yeah.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, which is heartbreaking to say, because it's my baby, but I was not okay, I was not physically okay and um or mentally okay at this point.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And um they were like, that's fine, we need to, we need to um like clothe him up and uh make sure he's all washed out, washed out and do the checks and everything.
• 41:06
  SPEAKER_00: So put him in his uh they put us in the um in the delivery area where they do the ons, or where they do the c sections.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_00: And Max's breathing was a little bit hoarse.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um Mike noticed it and said to the nurse, is this is this right?
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, they had a look over him and they were like, he needs to go to the high dependency unit because with C-sections, apparently they don't have the force of a natural birth to get up all the mucus from their lungs, from their lungs.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: So um he just needed some time in the HDU, um, and he could he he would be in there, and I remember thinking, yes, I don't have to mother, I don't have to be one of those mums that is sat there with their baby and having to pretend yeah that I want to be all over my baby when I don't.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_00: And we were quite fortunate because Ruth had got us a room, so a double room with my own bathroom.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember just laying in there, and I and I remember laying there thinking, I've had an epidural, I can't move, so I don't have to feel bad about this.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, whereas Mike can go down and be with Max, I can be on my own.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I remember getting the they they are trying to get the movement back in my legs, and they wheeled me down to see Max in the HDU.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I was hoping that I would feel something, and I remember feeling quite sad at seeing him in the little incubator, which was a good sign.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, which was a good sign, but didn't have that gush of love that I wanted to.
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: I really didn't.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's not smoking right enough as well, and I know obviously your sim your um situation is you know very different, but thousands of mothers don't feel that.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, they it's what's portrayed on the likes of social media and things that you feel this rush of love and the baby comes, and it's just it's not always like that.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, you know, if even if you don't have mental health problems or not, it's not it's not spoken about enough, I guess.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, you're so right.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're so right.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry, carry on.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, um so um anyway.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: So Max was down at HDU, I was up in my room, and um Max was there for a few days.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: I then had the mental health team come in and they were talking to me about my plans, and I was still very much set on what I had said to Mike.
• 43:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing had changed.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: I was still taking my medication, I was still, you know, having a having a bit of a battle with um with how I was feeling.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: Were you still hearing the voices, Maria?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, so after the quatiapine, that stopped.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I loved The cotyapine, it was my saviour while I was pregnant, and they just kept increasing it.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: So I was on a very, very high dose at this point.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I remember being in my like my underwear and my um pajamas and wanting to run away from the hospital, and I remember someone having to come and get me because I just couldn't face being in there any longer, yeah.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um but then things got really, really, really, really good.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_00: Really good.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me about that, talk to me what you through that.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I became completely manic.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And when I say manic, I was doing the most craziest things.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: So this was after so Max and I stayed in hospital for around five days after we after I'd given birth.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we got home, and all I wanted to do was do things with my with my children, and Mike was like, hang on a minute, like you could barely leave the house.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, literally five days ago.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you've done this is just crazy behaviour.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember taking the boys to London, and Max was born in January 2020, so this is just before COVID.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: So um things were people were wearing masks and it was just sleeping slowly creeping in.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I took the boys to London.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Max hadn't even had his jabs, I think he was probably about a week old, and I remember taking them to Madden Two Swords on one of the busiest days of the year.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't let me take my pushchair around.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I had my seven-day-old baby in my arms, I had two backpacks on, and I had a two-year-old.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_00: Mike obviously came because he was like, There is no way you are doing that on your own.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I had a great day.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had a great day.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else had a bad day.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: But you thought you were living your best life.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: You were like, this is great.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_00: Theo choked on olives and I laughed at him.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um it was just awful.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: We had such a terrible, terrible, terrible time.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I was living I was living in really.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: I know you talk, right?
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: I used to take the kids for walks down there and there's no path, and I used to think it was okay to take the kids for a walk down there, which is just crazy.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I booked a cruise.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: I got Max.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I booked a cruise.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_00: I got Max a passport.
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't end up going on this cruise because I was I'll tell you about that, but I don't want to give you any spoilers.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I was just I got Max a passport when he was tiny, tiny and was like, we're going on a cruise, I booked a cruise.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: I bet mine was like, what is going on right now?
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, he was beside himself.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: He was just like, he couldn't understand what was going on.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I lived like this for probably a couple of weeks.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and one other thing that happened was um we were in a soft play in Banbury.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: Rugrats.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Rugrats.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_01: Shout out to Rugrats.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's anyone soft play in Bambury, we all know it.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um we um Max again was tiny tiny.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um I didn't take a bag because I didn't think I needed one.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: So like a change in bag.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't take his milk, I didn't take I didn't take a changing bag, nothing.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I just took my baby and I took Theo.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was egging Theo to go down one of the drop slides, one of the big slides down there.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: And he was that's right.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um he was only really, really little, but I was really egging him to go down it.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um he fell down it basically and smashed all his face in.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: Oh and poor love, his nose was bleeding, his eyes had immediately gone black, and um other mums came round, they were like, Are you okay?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine, and I just grabbed Theo, had Max in one arm, Theo in the other, put him in the toilet, and I just put some blood on I put some tissue on his nose, and I remember ringing my aunt and just saying what happened, and she was like, Mad, you need to take him to the the hospital, just take him to the whole the Horton, and I remember getting to the Horton, Max was screaming because obviously he hadn't eaten.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, and I rung my mum and I was like, I forgot the changing bag, and she was like, What?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: You've gone out without a changing bag.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Yeah, I said I just I just wanted to take Theo to soft play, like that's all I wanted to do, yeah, and nothing else was gonna stop me from doing that.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I just wanted to take him to soft play, and now we've ended up with nearly a broken nose, and um my brother and Mike both turned up at this hospital with changing bags and stuff like that.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the hospital were great, they gave us um some milk and stuff to feed him, and Theo was eventually okay, but another another element of my erratic behaviour um was very much displayed there.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then things got so bad, so bad, um, to the point where I fell into a deeper, darker depression than I'd ever known before.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: The trees were now fully in my brain, yeah.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um they were back, the voice hadn't come back, but I was feeling so so low.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, to the point where I felt like I was just in a black hole and I couldn't get out of it any longer.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I went back to I can't get out of bed, I couldn't work out which side of the bed to get out of.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: I stopped washing again.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember the longest time I went was weeks without washing.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um you've got gorgeous beautiful hair.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, it was awful back then.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's really bad.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose, like you say, like you just kind of give up on things, don't you?
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: A little bit.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, like your personal hygiene and personal care and stuff, it goes out the window.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I get it, I get it.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we still were very much in touch with the um mental health perimeter perinatal mental health team, and they were aware of this erratic behavior that I'd been going on.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_00: And um we told them that I was now very, very sad again and I was very depressed again.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_00: And yet again, they just tried to tweak my meds slightly with um different things to try.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was now taking diazepam at this point as well.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I was still on the quatiapine, but the quatiapine they just kept increasing, and the search fully and I was at the maximum dose, so I couldn't go any higher with that, so there was not much we could do um with the medication.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: But the diazepam had its had its moments where it worked and it was it was quite good.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then um what happened after that?
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just trying to think.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd became obsessed, and I hate saying this, I hate it, but it's true, and this is what went through my mind.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd lost like the bond with Max had never really become anything at that point.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I had a bond with Theo.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: So at this point I had in my mind that it wasn't just gonna be me that died in with the trees, it was gonna be Theo too.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I would give Max to Mike and me and Theo would go our own way and I would dictate that.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember picking the day, 12th of March.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_00: 12th of March 2020, of when Theo and I were gonna die.
• 53:25
  unknown: Oh my god.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a surreal day, yeah, very surreal day.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very bizarre.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um that's insane.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's just crazy.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was crazy, yeah.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was really, really crazy.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um I remember spending all my money, got every single penny out of my bank account.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: You you said about this, you went to Biscivinias, didn't you?
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: But you bought like really random things, didn't you?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: Like I did.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: What did you buy?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, I bought a load of mugs from Emma Bridgewater.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: I bought Great mugs.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great mugs.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've still got them now.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um I bought a load of makeup that wasn't my colour.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: I went to I went and bought a load of clothes, like designer clothes that didn't even fit me, that weren't even my size.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um every penny of my bank account had gone because I just knew I wasn't gonna be here tomorrow to spend it.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: And did you tell Mike about this?
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_01: Mike was Mike aware?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't tell anyone about this at this point, no, because I knew they'd section me.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um take me back to that day then.
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: So woke up, the usual happened.
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_00: Mum came and got Max because I couldn't look after him.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um and Theo had gone to preschool, and I'd decided today was the day.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought I need to get ready.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: I need to make sure I've got everything ready.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: But first I wanted to spend all the money in my bank account, and I used to get a lot of satisfaction out of shopping, and I thought maybe that would make me feel that some way again, but it it didn't really, but I did spend all my money.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I I went to my friend's house and her husband's a carpenter.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember sat in a living room and I tried to get access to her husband's shed and she wouldn't let me go in there.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I was really cross with her, I was really, really angry with her.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember saying to her that she had to let me go in there because what was in the shed?
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: Rope.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right, okay.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I needed it, really, really needed it.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but she wouldn't let me get it.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember sat there and I just looked at the trees in her garden and I said to her, Your trees are really rubbish, they wouldn't take any weight whatsoever, they wouldn't bear any weights, but you may as well cut those trees down.
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_00: And with that, she burst into tears and was like, Madge, what are you saying?
• 56:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are you saying?
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's I said to her, I've got to go now.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: And she didn't even say, like, what an odd thing to say, she knew, didn't she?
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_00: She knew she knew deep down, and as soon as I stepped out of that door, she rang the perinatal mental health team and said, Somebody needs to go and get her right now.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, I think something horrendously bad is gonna happen.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, shout out to this friend.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know, Sarah.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, Sarah.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she was she was amazing, she's been amazing throughout the whole of this.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um the whole of this.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_00: That must have been so scary for her as well, for you to go around and be like that, and but like you say, she knew.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she did, and then she rang another good friend of mine who then was circling BISTA trying to find me, who had also rang the perinatal mental health team.
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: And um I remember it was time to pick up Theo from preschool, so I thought I'm gonna go and get him.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was in the car, and I I remember reading that someone had taken their own life by driving into a bridge in Bista, and I thought to myself, hmm, could I do that now?
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember that going, fleeting thought went through my head, but there was another part of my brain that was talking to me about the trees, and it was like, do not let the trees down.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: You have invested so much time and effort into the trees.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is the way, this is the way, and I thought, no, okay, fine.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_00: And my mum randomly rang me, and she was like, Where are you?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I said, I've just picked up Theo, and with that, I burst into tears to the point where I was crying like a baby, I was wailing, and um she was like, What is going on?
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening?
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening?
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I basically said to her, I need to die, mum, I need to die.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: Theo needs to die.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I've told her about my plan, and she was like, get home now.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: And she was speaking to me as I as I was driving, got home, she grabbed Theo straight out of the car and brought me in.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: And Mike was now listening, and he was like, This is this has got like we had we'd spoken about hospital before with the perinatal mental health team, and I remember saying things like I don't need to go into a loony bin, and which is so because at that point you didn't really know anything about the mother and baby unit or anything, nothing, yeah.
• 58:58
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing at all, you don't know about it until you're in it, I suppose.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: Nothing at all.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: So I remember saying that before, and Mike basically said to me, and so did my mum, they were like, You have no choice now.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: You either go in voluntarily and you ring them yourself and you say, I'm going in, or we section you, we get you sectioned.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I although my half my my brain was pretty messed up, I do remember thinking my rights will be very different if I get sectioned.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought, if I'm gonna get better, I need to do it now.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: This is my only time.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I rang the perinatal mental health team, and she said to me, We've had so many calls about you today, about the welfare of your safety.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um what amazing friends though.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Really good friends, you know, they they know you so well and they know that they knew that something wasn't right.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they did, they were so so good.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_00: And um I said to them, it's time for hospital now.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not fighting it any longer, I need to go in.
• 1:00:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and there were talks of me going into the Warnford, but I wouldn't be able to take Macs, and I I explicitly said no.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I said I want a mother and baby unit because they'd briefly spoken to me about the bit of mother and baby units, and um Louis Faroux did a uh a documentary um uh what about one, and I remember watching that years and years ago, yeah.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I thought, okay, I know I briefly know what that is, like I know that you go in with your baby.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um and they said, give us five minutes, we'll ring you back.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there was one bed left in Leeds, and that for anyone watching, Leeds is about three and a half hours away, so it's it's quite a journey.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's about three and a half hours away.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's it's it's a long way, it's up north.
• 1:00:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, nowhere near where we live.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not, it's really, really not.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so my brother drove me, Mike, and Max in the evening to Leeds and dropped me and Max off.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember seeing my brother and Mike both crying, they were both really, really, really upset.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_00: But Mike was almost like crying of with relief that I was actually now somewhere that could really help me.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's only so much family and friends can do, isn't there?
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: Until you need to go in and have that professional help.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you you said you it was important that Max um it Deo stayed with you.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: No, Max stayed with you.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sorry.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's important that Max stayed with you.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: What was like daily life like in the unit?
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sure probably at the start you were very nervous.
• 1:01:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I was comparing what were you expecting?
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I didn't really know what to expect to begin with.
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_00: I remember the first time we got there, we were taken into a side room and we were seeing one of the psychiatrists, psychiatric doctors, and he was looking at my medication and all the medication I was on, and he wanted to do a full review in the morning.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was like, We need to take you off the search ralene straight away, it's not working for you.
• 1:02:22
  SPEAKER_00: This is because they had all of my notes from um everything.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, You should never have begun on that.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_01: You should you you know, you always have to try 26 weeks 26 weeks.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god.
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I was just basically popping smarties at this point, yeah.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so but never mind, it is what it is, and you have to learn, you you know, you have to be a guinea pig at some point.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um but um and I remember because I was really high risk, I had to have somebody watch me 24 hours a day.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_00: So even when I slept, somebody was in my room with me.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um how did you find that?
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: It was very bizarre because I couldn't even go to the toilet without somebody coming to the toilet with me.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_00: It was suicide watch.
• 1:03:12
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's exactly what it was, and because I was so adamant and I was so mad at myself, and it that I didn't go through with it, but I knew that if I can get better, then I could be the right, the best mum to both of my boys.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: And the fact that you're still thinking about that as well, like just says shows how much like you are as a how amazing you are as a mum.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but daily life in the unit was the setup is very much like a house.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you've got your living area, you've got your kitchen, you've got a dining room, we've got we had a conservatory, we had a playroom for the children, for the babies, um, then we each had our own room.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but there was only six bedrooms at this one.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I stayed with six other ladies.
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um all in the same position that you were.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we all had very similar diagnoses, okay, but we all had it very differently.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:04:20
  SPEAKER_00: If you know what I mean, it was really strange.
• 1:04:23
  SPEAKER_00: There were there were ladies in there with like severe OCD, um, some with you know severe postnatal depression, um, psychosis, yeah.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_00: All walks of life were in, like all walks of the mental health beast were in there.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was um it was really like when I first got in there, I couldn't speak to anybody.
• 1:04:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was just very much kept myself to myself, and for the first few, for the first two weekends, we were able to have visitors, and I remember my mum and my Mike and um Theo came to visit.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_00: My friend Sarah came to visit, um, and then I had a few other visitors as well the following week.
• 1:05:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I had a few other friends come down, and then um COVID happened, and we weren't allowed visitors anymore.
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but I remember feeling pure joy of hearing that because after two weeks and having visitors, I couldn't get better.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was still trying to put on a bit of a brave face in front of my friends and my family, and actually this period of time enabled me to actually work with the doctors, work at my relationship with Max, and get better.
• 1:05:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: It was just me and him.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: And you socialise within the house?
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I suppose could you all living together, of course.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I've socialized with um the other mums and actually a few of the mums I still keep in contact with now.
• 1:06:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so special.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:06:07
  SPEAKER_01: How are they all doing?
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_00: They're doing really well.
• 1:06:10
  SPEAKER_00: One of them's in Menorca at the moment, having a lovely holiday with her boys.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so um her little boy is the same age as Max.
• 1:06:18
  SPEAKER_00: So it's um it's really nice to be able to uh she lives up north though.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: She's um she's in Leeds actually.
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, it's it's lovely.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's lovely to be able to have that close connection with those people that no one else will understand what we went through together.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, got to have that.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_01: And um in the in the mother and baby unit, did you have like uh like therapy?
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_00: What yeah, tell me about yeah, so I think to begin with, they want to just so when you're first in there, I was particularly uh I was really unwell.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_00: So they didn't they don't really give out therapy until your medication is better and you're on a more stable level.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:07:07
  SPEAKER_00: So for me that meant I had to be weaned off the surriline and then put onto a new medication called venloflaxine, which I still take today.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it no shame in it.
• 1:07:17
  SPEAKER_00: No shame, no shame.
• 1:07:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and um the venloflaxine was a game changer, it was an absolute game changer for me.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we slow, slowly started working it back up again.
• 1:07:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um so my antidepressants were now working, which was great.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_00: I was still taking the quatiapine um and I was still on the diazepam.
• 1:07:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um there were talks about me going on lithium at one point, but um the doctor decided against it, which I was kind of glad about.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I received therapy shortly after I became a little bit more stable.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:08:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they would do it in like strange ways.
• 1:08:05
  SPEAKER_00: So we'd work with psycho psychiatrists, psychologists, um, we would have mental health nurses in there.
• 1:08:13
  SPEAKER_00: We would also work with occupational therapists as well.
• 1:08:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we would um do, we didn't realize we were doing we were having therapy, but we were cooking together and baking together and things like that.
• 1:08:27
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas, like for me, cooking was a no-go from 26 weeks pregnant after that the spaghetti bolognese.
• 1:08:36
  SPEAKER_00: We eat that now, and I'm like, for goodness sake.
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, so um so actually doing um getting in the kitchen and cooking with these ladies was a huge, huge step for me.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um but that's some that was something that came later, yeah, once I was more stabilized.
• 1:08:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um but the day would be like any ordinary day.
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_00: You'd get up, you'd have your meds, you'd have your breakfast, you'd go and have a shower, and then you'd get your baby ready.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_00: So for a little while I couldn't touch Max, so um the nurses would help me get him ready, but they would very much make me try and do it as much as possible.
• 1:09:21
  SPEAKER_00: Sort of like push you a little bit further each day, each day, exactly right, just so I was getting there, and then before I knew it, I was dressing my baby, yeah, which was crazy because I hadn't done that, you know, before.
• 1:09:32
  SPEAKER_01: But that feels like a little bit like a milestone for you, especially in there, you know, yeah.
• 1:09:36
  SPEAKER_00: Definitely, um, and then um we would play some games, so as in we would do like baby songs and things like that, um, which again they would ask you to take part in, reading books and things like that.
• 1:09:53
  SPEAKER_00: Then we'd have lunch, then you would do another activity of some sort, or go and see the doctor or the consultant or whoever you needed to see.
• 1:10:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then it was tea time.
• 1:10:06
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a really strange the day was gone.
• 1:10:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it was lovely to have a little bit of a garden, a um conservatory area.
• 1:10:16
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose at that time as well, like when you the weather was lovely during lockdown, so you guys got to be outside and we did, yeah, we did.
• 1:10:23
  SPEAKER_00: So um for a long time I wasn't allowed to go out without anyone.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: So um even to the point I don't think I ever actually went out without somebody chaperoning me.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, but we were but when then when COVID hit we weren't allowed out.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:10:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was really, really, really strict.
• 1:10:45
  SPEAKER_01: And how long did you spend in the mother and baby unit?
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I went in on the 12th of March and I was officially discharged on the 1st of July.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I spent april, May, June, July.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I did three months in the mother and baby unit and then I had a month at home.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I did um yeah, I did I did a bit of time in Leeds and then a a bed became available in um Hertfordshire in in a place called Thumbswood, which again was another great place.
• 1:11:27
  SPEAKER_00: And they actually um decided to look at my medication again and um wanted to wean me off the quatiapine.
• 1:11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I remember going through that there, and that was can only be described as a heroin addict coming off heroin.
• 1:11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it was horrendous.
• 1:11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I was but I was in a better place to be able to manage it and handle it.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I had physical symptoms, couldn't sleep, I was hot, cold, sweating, I had insomnia, they just didn't let me look after Max while I was going through this transition.
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:12:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I've managed to get off of it and I was so pleased.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember that coming off of that was really hard, really, really hard.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I was in a better place, so I was able to do it, and I was closer to home, so Mike could then have the odd visitation rights to come in.
• 1:12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You'd have to wear a mask and everything, but he was then able to see his baby because he hadn't seen his son for months.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose you hadn't seen Theo either.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, just over FaceTime I would see him.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um does he have an understanding, like where mummy was?
• 1:12:40
  SPEAKER_00: So whenever we talk about lockdown, he always I remember him drawing a rainbow and a picture of me, him, daddy and Max, but me and Max were in the hospital, and he always says he's like, Oh that was the time you were away, mummy, when you were in hospital.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_00: I said, Yeah, mummy was poorly back then, and um mummy and Max had to had to go away for a little while, and that's how he remembers it.
• 1:13:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:13:06
  SPEAKER_01: That makes your heart like melt, doesn't it?
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know they're just so like they've just got no awareness, have they?
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: They're so innocent.
• 1:13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and for your family and Mike when you got home and I guess integrated back into the world again, how was that?
• 1:13:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I suppose like if from myself looking outside, you know, you've obviously the one that's been through it, but your family and Mike have watched this whole car crash basically, you know, and then you've gone away and they're they've got to rebuild.
• 1:13:38
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how how do they find that?
• 1:13:40
  SPEAKER_00: They found that really difficult, I think.
• 1:13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um they yeah, it was it was really hard because I got home, so we did one home stay, had a flip-out, and I had to go straight back into the mother and baby unit, and then I was finally ready to say goodbye to the mother and baby unit.
• 1:14:02
  SPEAKER_00: And um when I say I was better, I just looked better, I was I just felt so much better, just more stable.
• 1:14:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I remember getting home and thinking, I can't live here any longer.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I can't live here.
• 1:14:22
  SPEAKER_00: I have too many bad memories, like just too many bad memories.
• 1:14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I remember saying to Mike, we have to we have to sell this house.
• 1:14:33
  SPEAKER_00: We have to, like, I've got no other choice.
• 1:14:36
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot live in this house any longer because uh my bed and just everywhere, everywhere I looked just reminded me of what I went through.
• 1:14:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:14:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um but actually for the family, I think they were just so relieved to see me feeling happy again and actually being with Max because I left loving Max and I really like we have the best bond now you'd ever imagine.
• 1:15:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like we are like this, like we are so close, it's unbelievable.
• 1:15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but just seeing me with my baby, and I think everyone was just so relieved, but we were also in the height of lockdown, so I we had a little bubble, yeah, which included my mum, which was great, so she was able to come around and see the boys, um, and my sister and my brother.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_00: But we were we couldn't see Mike's family for a long time because they lived so far away, and um yeah, they were I know.
• 1:15:41
  SPEAKER_01: And when you left the the unit, do you think the healing was like gradual, or is there like a certain turning point when you were like I'm okay?
• 1:15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Do you is there like a moment or that's a really good question?
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_01: You can go back to it if you want.
• 1:15:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, I think it was gradual, definitely.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_00: There was not a I didn't wake up one morning thinking I'm feeling okay.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I went through a stages of real support from the perinatal mental health team and the mother and baby unit, yeah.
• 1:16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where it just made me feel better every I was just starting to feel a bit better every day.
• 1:16:25
  SPEAKER_00: And some days it would be tiny, tiny, tiny amounts, and other days it would be I'd really notice a change.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:16:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I kept a diary while I was in there.
• 1:16:36
  SPEAKER_01: Did you?
• 1:16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've not looked at it since.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Really?
• 1:16:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, I've not looked at it because I remember will.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 1:16:44
  SPEAKER_00: I know where it is, yeah, but I haven't opened it.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because I wrote everything I felt.
• 1:16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Someone told me to do it just as I was leaving, and they said, take keep a diary, just write down whatever you're feeling, and um, and you'll see how it progresses over time.
• 1:17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll be interesting to have a look back at that one day.
• 1:17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what does motherhood look like for you today?
• 1:17:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're now a mum of two very energetic little boys.
• 1:17:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they absolutely are, and I think that's the the beauty of this story is that there is such a happy ending at the end of this.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we are I I'm so in love with my boys, and um, they are amazing.
• 1:17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um and we've come such a long way from where we've um from where we were um five years ago, six years ago now.
• 1:17:37
  SPEAKER_01: And for Mike to you know say stuck around, but Mike to have gone through all that, and you know, I bet he is just in awe of you and everything you've accomplished, you know what I mean, as his wife, you know, and the other children.
• 1:17:51
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, you should be really proud of yourself.
• 1:17:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, thank you so much, thank you, and thank you for having me on.
• 1:17:57
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's fine.
• 1:17:58
  SPEAKER_01: No, look, anytime, come on, always free.
• 1:18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I guess just a couple of questions for people that maybe don't understand.
• 1:18:07
  SPEAKER_01: What do you wish more people understood about postpartum psychosis?
• 1:18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I know you spoke about the importance of like early intervention, yes.
• 1:18:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but yeah, I guess from your point of view, what would you what would you tell someone who hadn't experienced it?
• 1:18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what I mean?
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like what would your yeah, what do people need to understand more about?
• 1:18:27
  SPEAKER_00: I think um that it's it's one of those things that you uh for particularly in my case, it's something that crept up on me very, very, very suddenly.
• 1:18:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it's something that if you start noticing changes in behavior of somebody or um they're starting to withdraw or anything like that, um please reach out to them, yeah.
• 1:19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Please reach out to them and be patient with them because there are things that are really difficult to say, and um I think sometimes when you're going through something like psychosis, you don't know what's going on, yeah, you really don't.
• 1:19:20
  SPEAKER_01: Your mind is in another another world.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you're in a complete another world, and um yeah, it's crazy, it's absolutely crazy.
• 1:19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I just think just be patient, be there, be an ear to listen to, like listen, listen to them, and please, please get help because it is one of the most prolific killers of mums in pregnancy and uh postnatal.
• 1:19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um it's just a high, aren't they?
• 1:19:52
  SPEAKER_00: They're really high.
• 1:19:53
  SPEAKER_00: They're too high, yeah.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Too high.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_01: So post-partum is like one in a hundred women.
• 1:19:57
  SPEAKER_00: One in one hundred, that's right.
• 1:19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Insane, isn't it?
• 1:20:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's crazy.
• 1:20:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's absolutely crazy.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, um, but I would definitely just say reach out, yeah, just get help, be be as honest as you can with the mental health team.
• 1:20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's nothing that they that you've that you're gonna say that they haven't heard or heard even worse.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So um don't feel don't feel scared to do that because it's really important.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:20:28
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess after everything you've been through, what what are you most proud of?
• 1:20:32
  SPEAKER_00: You can tell yourself, because I am, I'm proud of you.
• 1:20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of just getting to where I am now.
• 1:20:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like since um the birth of Theo and Max, I didn't mention this earlier, but I've also been diagnosed with bipolar.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:20:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um they do believe that that stemmed from Theo's birth.
• 1:20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, so um I am very up and down um ever since the births of um of Max, and it never really the downs were definitely not as down as they had been before, but um I would still get times where I'd feel quite high on life.
• 1:21:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm now very much medicated for that now, so feeling far more stable, which is great.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I think yeah, getting through getting through what we've got through together with my family and my as a unit and now navigating motherhood with bipolar.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:21:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's just it swings aroundabouts, isn't it?
• 1:21:43
  SPEAKER_01: It is just yeah, it swings aroundabouts.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think you're incredible.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thank you.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_01: You've gone through everything you've been through, come out the other side.
• 1:21:51
  SPEAKER_01: You're still advocating for women across the country, like it's inspiring, and you've been so open about your story.
• 1:21:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, I watched it back in 2021, and you know, and now I'm a mum, I just I get it.
• 1:22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know.
• 1:22:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I know you previously raised money for the Pandas Foundation, didn't you?
• 1:22:08
  SPEAKER_01: To support other mums.
• 1:22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me a little bit just about that.
• 1:22:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so we did so me and two friends um did a a walk.
• 1:22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um where did we go?
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was in the Cotswolds, it was around the Cotswolds area, and um we yeah, we we raised money for pandas, which is one of the um perinatal and postnatal depression psychosis anxiety charity.
• 1:22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they did a they do a lot of work with women that are experiencing that, and highly recommend using their website if you ever feel any type of symptom that you think isn't isn't quite right for you.
• 1:22:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um yeah, uh they're a fantastic charity, so really, really recommend looking at their website.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Amazing.
• 1:22:57
  SPEAKER_01: My last question I asked all my guests if you could write a letter to yourself back then, what would you say?
• 1:23:03
  SPEAKER_01: What would you tell yourself?
• 1:23:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, that's a really good question.
• 1:23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Things will get better.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
• 1:23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can't see it now, but there will be one.
• 1:23:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, that's what I'd say.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it makes it really emotional.
• 1:23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because I would write the same to myself, and probably a lot of mums would, you know, even not even in the depth of just post-part and you know, you don't see it now, but it's gonna get better, I promise, you know.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's maybe well up.
• 1:23:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's what I'd write.
• 1:23:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thank you again for coming on today.
• 1:23:41
  SPEAKER_01: For everyone listening to today's conversation has resonated with you.
• 1:23:44
  SPEAKER_01: Please remember help is available and you don't have to struggle alone.
• 1:23:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a reminder where you are in motherhood, you're never alone.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you again, Maria.
• 1:23:52
  unknown: Thank you.
• 1:23:52
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate it so much.
• 1:23:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 1:23:54
  SPEAKER_00: No worries.