Latest / The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination / JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 364 - Speak No Evil

Transcript

JFK ASSASSINATION - Ep. 364 - Speak No Evil · The Lone Gunman Podcast : JFK Assassination

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Hey, ladies and gentlemen, let's we're looking to go beyond measurers.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I looking to go beyond lemons.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: I were looking to make history.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I were looking to pull an ultrara out in the
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: card that's more rare compared to other sports cards pulled.
• 0:12
  Speaker 2: Round of waters and hit he big on e Bay.
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Ladies down, really talk with anybody playing with all out
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: of anoon?
• 0:20
  Speaker 3: Have you looking to pull an ultra red number card
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: number real low and get a great player to get
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: an uber rear card that makes waves around the internet
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: and cars and getting noted.
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: Them we go viral on YouTube. So without further aduce.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Let's crack open these two and hit it big.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Y'all know what time it is, ladies.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Then on Real Talk Dude, Real Talk dude, and Jacob
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: and Paul Tael y'all have my wife picking on my
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: picking on my front too.
• 0:54
  Speaker 4: Jesu.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: And Joey Frock Conjo.
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: Then Joe me Joey, then show me, show by.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Fellow, show kill we and here we go.
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: That is right, Joseph, what is up everybody? It's the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Triple B and Joe be here with you for another
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: exciting edition of the Lone gum and podcast. Tonight we
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: will be talking about the Ed Hoffman story. Speak no Evil,
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: and I guess here no evil too. As for those
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: of you who don't know, Ed Hoffman was a deaf mute.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: That means someone who could not hear or speak, which
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: makes for an awful witness. But I guess it's better
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: than somebody who cannot see. That would make for an
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: even worse witness.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: That would be your racer.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: But before we get into it, Joe, welcome, Welcome the
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: people in, if you will please.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Sir, sure, so I know mister Jack Taylor was first
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: comment when you put it up and put a little
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: gold medal emoji, although I can't see it in restream.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: Congratulations on being first. I actually put a silver metal
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: up because I was second, and I think tiny and
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: a couple of people or after I know Sally is
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: here alright, all, how are you miss Sally? And Sally?
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: You dat activated your X account so now I can't
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: message with you and hear your pretty voice.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, maybe she just blocked you, creepy.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: Mister Tony Holman's good evening, everyone, Scott Edwards, Hello, sir.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: Speak No Evil also connects to the monkey from last
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: week Southwest already said here we go Jack Taylor. Yep, trophy,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I did award him with that. Trey is driving. He
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: is on his way to Shreeport, one hour away from
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: the Gate Nineties Club Inport Oh Boy. I'm sure you
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: will make that your first stop, sir, if only it
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: was open. Tiny dancer. Yeah, hello man, I hope you're
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: feeling better. I hope you are recovering well. Claude and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: aunt you Dene say Hi, howdy boys, Paula Jane, how
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: are you mister James Smith. I can't hear a thing. Yeah,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: hopefully that's a joke.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: And not Yeah, hopefully that's not true.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and our sound is working. Hi from Scotland, d W.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think she's lying, Joe, because I see there's
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of red flags over here on the comments
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: section saying they can't hear nothing.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I think that's I think we would have heard. If
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: you can't hear us, stop the joking emojis and loves.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but seriously, can you hear well? If they can't
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: hear is Joe, then.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah that yeah, this would be all for nothing. But
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: but thank you g W for staying up late with us.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: From Scotland.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: We're gonna do the entire show in American sign language.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: How many shots did you hear? And mister PAULI, I
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: was kidding, Yeah, that's what I thought, So I hear you.
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: All right, So mister ed Hoffman, interesting witness, and I
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: think we're going to flesh it out today and decide
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: how credible he is or isn't.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, we're gonna flesh him out. I had always
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: heard bits and pieces about this guy because, yeah, unfortunately
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: he wasn't interviewed by the Warrant Commission Jim Garrison, or
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: the HSCA for that matter, or the DPD or the
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: DPD or the or the Dallas Sheriff's office. But way
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: back in twenty fourteen, when I went to the very
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: first Cuckoo conference where Judy Baker was at, I came
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: across these guys, these two guys Joe, and their names
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: are Casey Quinlan and Brian Edwards, and they wrote a
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: book entitled Beyond the Fence Line, The Eyewitness Account of
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: Ed Hoffman and the Murderer of President Kennedy. Okay, now,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: for those of you guys who don't know, Brian Edwards
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: is a former police officer turned JFK researcher. And Casey
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: Quinlan is just a I believe he's a teacher, a
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: history teacher, and a very smart guy, very jovial fella,
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: very likable. I enjoyed talking to these guys at the conference.
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: Well, and for some reason I didn't buy I didn't
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: buy a copy of the book when I was there.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: I should have. I should have done that. I think
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: Doug did. Actually I could be wrong, but I think
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: I'm pretty did. Yeah.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: And I think they are involved or going to be
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: speaking at the conference.
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: This year not Yeah. Now, the reason they wrote this
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: book is because they UH decided to spend some time
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: with this story, okay. And Ed Hoffman didn't pass away
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: until the year twenty ten, okay, and so he was
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: alive for them to be able to I was gonna say,
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: talked to, but interact with, interact with yeah, of his
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: of his UH son or daughter or you know something
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: like that. When its family members, I think was interpreting
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: I believe it was the daughter. Yeah.
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So this is a tough story because Ed didn't
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: come forward right away, and when he did, they really
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: kind of didn't know what to do with him because
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: of his condition and given where he was that day,
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: and I'll show you here in a minute. They found
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: his story hard to believe now in terms of exactly
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: where ed Hoffman was standing in comparison to what he
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: was seeing from his vantage point. Okay, the little black
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: dot at the bottom corner, bottom left corner with an
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: arrow pointing to it, this is Ed Hoffman. That is
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: where he was standing. He had pulled over to the
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: side of the freeway. Okay, uh, the Stemens Freeway. And
• 9:21
  Speaker 2: if you follow the broken line on the right hand
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: side backwards up, okay, up, up, up, up, up, all right,
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: you can see where the motorcade route was. You can
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: see the sixth floor. Uh all right, I'm sorry. You
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: can see the Texas school Book Depository up there on
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: the corner. And you can see where the car would
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: have turned on Elm Street. And the broken dotted line
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: is moving down Elm Street past past the grassy area, right,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: and he can he has a pretty good uh, he
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: has a pretty good view of the rear side of
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: the picket fence there then runs all the way atop
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: the grassy knole.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: Right, and just to just to say, the motorcat is
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: moving from the top.
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: Of the picture you were showing the dog wins down
• 10:17
  Speaker 5: curving down through the bottom and the grassy knoll is
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: that corner that is kind of like the top right
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: and the top right side of the picture below.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the big grassy area right beside the dotted line, yeah,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: of the parking lot, and you can kind of see
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: the fence line and then the parking lot behind it.
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: Right now. Of course, this is a perspective based photograph.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: You have to imagine, Okay, a very tiny ed Hoffman
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: on this side of the freeway. Now, he was on
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: this side of the freeway because he figured that the
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: President was going to come down the dotted line area, okay,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: and go under the Stemens Freeway, and that he would
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: be able to look down into the President's car and
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: see them below him. Okay, that's why he was not
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: closer on the other side of the Stemens Freeway. Okay,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: So that's the perspective. But you can see how small
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: and tiny these cars are that are on the Simons Freeway.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Imagine how small and tiny of a person would be
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: if they are standing outside one of these vehicles at
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: that location. Okay, he's looking very far distance. Okay. To
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: put it into more perspective, Joe, Here we have the
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: aerial view, okay, top right corner, you have the school
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: book depository. Directly to the left of the school book depository,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: it's highlighted is where Lee Bowers was in the tower
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: in the terminal switching yard there, okay, And there was
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: a red line pointing straight down from Lee Bauer's Tower
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: of power straight to the rear of the grassy Nole
• 12:23
  Speaker 2: picket fence line. Okay. Now, once you get to the
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: grassy Nole fence line, you'll see another arrow coming in
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: from the left. And if you follow that red line
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: all the way to the left, that is where Ed
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: Hoffman was located. So he's basically looking over two gigantic
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: freeways with a great distance in between them to see
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: behind the picket fence. Yeah.
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: Now if you follow the intersection the behind the grassy
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: and old picket fence, as you can see it, and
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: instead of going left to find Ed Hoffman, now we're
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: gonna go south directly south from there, and the highlighted
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: area right there on the railroad tracks, Okay, that is
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: an area where sm Or Sam Holland was located a
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: railroad man, and that is going to be his perspective
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: from there. And in this discussion, we're going to we're
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: gonna hear what Ed Hoffman saw, We're gonna hear what
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Lee Bower saw, and we're gonna hear what sm Holland
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: or Sam Holland and a bunch of these other railroad
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: workers who were on top of the Oat Triple Overpass
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: what they saw. Because basically we're talking about eyewitnesses here,
• 13:55
  Speaker 2: so you would want to compare what these people saw
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: with each other, because they all can't be looking at
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: the same scene and see different things, because that's not
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: good for any of them. Any one of them could
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: be true, any two of them, if they're different, could
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: be lying or mistaken. But significantly different scenes of the
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: exact same area is of course a problem, especially one
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: that really didn't come out until all the other eyewitness
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: testimony came out. Right now. The reason that our boy
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: Ed Hoffman was there that day. Ed Hoffman worked at
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Texas Instruments, right, and he took a mid morning break
• 14:54
  Speaker 2: and he had a bad toothache, Joe he did.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: He was chewing some eye and I believe his tooth broke,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: according to.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: Him, crack the goddamn moler, which is painful. So he
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: took off from work and headed downtown to the dentist
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: on the east side of town. As he was crossing
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: through downtown, he noticed that a lot of people were
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: gathering and then he remembered, oh shit, that's right, today's
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: to day. That President Kennedy's coming to Dallas, right, So
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: he figured that he would park his car along the
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: side of the freeway where he could be able to
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: catch a glimpse down into the President's car and actually
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: see them and wave to them, you know, welcome to Dallas,
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: mister president. Right now. I believe Joe. The first time
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: ed Hoffman's story came out to the people, if you will,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: was in Jim Marr's Crossfire in the late eighties. And
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: then after that what.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Sixty seven I believe was when he claimed.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Related to the JFK research community by an author, okay
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: it you know, kind of put out there by somebody.
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: The first time was Jim Mars who wrote about it
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty nine, and shortly after that Joe he
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: was one of the men who killed Kennedy, which I
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: happen to have a small clip from that we are
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: going to peruse or right about now.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: Yep. And the men who killed Kennedy, like I've mentioned before,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: was what got me personally into the Kennedy assassination. And
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: when I heard his story here, I found him extremely credible,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: just giving my initial first time observations.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I believe it always helps if you see
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: the person in person, if not in person, at least
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: on video.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Uh. I was about to say here the person, but
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: maybe here the translation of the person.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, enjoy reading the subtitles or listening to another person
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: say what he said? Uh, here we go is two minutes, folks,
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: or two or three minutes here we go? Be right
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: back and and just the quick aside, folks. Ed Hoffman
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: is a straight up pimp driving a Jaguar in the
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: late eighties in Dallas. I don't know what kind of
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: business this guy was in by then, well, I mean Texas. Yeah,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: that's true.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: Did you not have that calculator?
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: Everybody?
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: That scientific calculator? I mean even I'm not young enough
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: to not remember that.
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's not all they made. So of course,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: of course ed Hoffman did very well for himself. I
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: mean dude's pimping a Jaguar in the late eighties. I
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: didn't think that out, by the way.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think he was born and I think
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: it was thirty seven, so forty seven, fifty seven. He
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: would have been in his mid twenties, mid to young twenties.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: To put it into context at this time, because we
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: only see him what he was older.
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, not at this time. At this time,
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: he's in his fifties. But when when the JFK thing happened, Yes,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: he was in his mid twenties.
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, please.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: All right back to Pim and Ed Hoffman and he's
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: jaguar jaggu war. I just need to point this out
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: that I don't think he came forward with this story
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: for the money, because he didn't need it. He was
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: already balling. Here we go.
• 18:55
  Speaker 6: However, his story is confirmed by another eyewitness, Ed Hoffman, Mute,
• 19:00
  Speaker 6: who was interviewed here for the first time.
• 19:02
  Speaker 7: I'd gotten off work early because I had a dentist's appointment.
• 19:07
  Speaker 7: I was traveling down the freeway here and I remembered
• 19:10
  Speaker 7: that President Kennedy was coming to visit Dallas.
• 19:17
  Speaker 8: I parked my car here.
• 19:19
  Speaker 7: I realized at this spot that I would be able
• 19:21
  Speaker 7: to see Kennedy pass close by. I stood here and waited,
• 19:26
  Speaker 7: and I was looking towards where he would be coming from.
• 19:29
  Speaker 7: I suddenly saw two men who looked suspicious.
• 19:32
  Speaker 8: Directly over there in the car park.
• 19:36
  Speaker 6: Twenty five years ago. These trees did not obscur the view.
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: From his position at the side of the freeway, ed
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: Hoffman could clearly see the car park area behind the
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: grassy knoll.
• 19:48
  Speaker 7: I saw a man standing here wearing a black hat
• 19:51
  Speaker 7: and a blue jacket. I saw a puff of smoke,
• 19:54
  Speaker 7: and I thought it was a cigarette, but it wasn't.
• 19:57
  Speaker 8: He had a gun, and he walked toward towards the railroad.
• 20:04
  Speaker 8: He tossed the gun to.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: The second man.
• 20:07
  Speaker 7: Then he turned and straightened his jacket, adjusted his hat,
• 20:10
  Speaker 7: and walked casually away. The man with the striped shirt
• 20:23
  Speaker 7: the railroad shirt, walked over to the electrical box with
• 20:27
  Speaker 7: the gun.
• 20:28
  Speaker 8: He took the gun apart he put it in a toolbox.
• 20:39
  Speaker 7: He then walked slowly away in the direction of the
• 20:43
  Speaker 7: railroad track.
• 20:49
  Speaker 8: When the motorcade passed.
• 20:50
  Speaker 7: By, alone here I realized that Kennedy had been shot.
• 20:55
  Speaker 8: I was horrified.
• 20:57
  Speaker 7: I saw a policeman standing on the railroad brig and
• 21:00
  Speaker 7: I tried to get his attention, but he didn't see me.
• 21:04
  Speaker 7: So I got in my car and drove to the
• 21:06
  Speaker 7: area where I had seen the two men, but there
• 21:09
  Speaker 7: were so many people there and I couldn't find them.
• 21:15
  Speaker 7: I went to the FBI to tell them what I
• 21:17
  Speaker 7: had seen. They didn't want me to say anything. They
• 21:20
  Speaker 7: offered me money to keep quiet. They didn't understand that
• 21:24
  Speaker 7: it was more important for me to tell them what
• 21:26
  Speaker 7: I had seen. It was hard for me to communicate
• 21:32
  Speaker 7: with them. I do feel that the two men I
• 21:36
  Speaker 7: saw were working together, and that the one with the
• 21:40
  Speaker 7: gun behind the fence was the man who shot President Kennedy.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Look at the situation.
• 21:46
  Speaker 9: The FBI started the investigation right away, and they had
• 21:49
  Speaker 9: all these reports, over fifty reports for my witnesses saying
• 21:52
  Speaker 9: at least one of the shots came from that area.
• 21:54
  Speaker 9: And here, all of a sudden, they've got a photograph
• 21:56
  Speaker 9: that shows.
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: A prisoner Lena get rid of Gary Mack there.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it goes off into the badge man.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, it goes off into the ethersphere. Now, one thing
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: that should be acknowledged and noted here, folks, is you know,
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and fortunately, in Shallah, praise God, I have no uh
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: sensory and abilities. They're all there, folks on Big Bad Bob.
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: I have heard Joe that when you lose you know,
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: one of your body's capacities to get input or provide
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: output if you will, that your other senses become stronger. Right,
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: So if you lay your sight fearing, yeah, right, then
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: your eyesight becomes better. If you lose your eyesight, your
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: sense of hearing becomes better.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's pretty proven.
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: Because you are relying on that sensory perception for input
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: into your brain. So your brain understands that maybe one
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: road is closed and it needs to throw all of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: its focus on the other road, you know what I'm saying.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: And with Ed it's doubled, so he can't hear and
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: he can't speak. Okay. And our brain, as we are
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: interpreting things and thinking, it sends signals to our mouth
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: to speak very quickly. You know, it's almost an impulsory
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: thing to be able to speak. Your brain does a
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: lot of work to help you speak, It doesn't really
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: do a lot to help you hear. You know that's
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: going in you know, a different part to a different
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: part of the brain, and eyesight is again attached directly
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: to the brain, you know, And it's very there's a
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: whole lot going on, That's what I'm trying to say.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: When you're using your senses, and it's entirely possible that
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: would what would be almost impossible for the average person,
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: giving where he was in the distance, to not be
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: able to see minor details like, you know, he could
• 24:32
  Speaker 2: see a puff of smoke. He could see the guy
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: was wearing a blue jacket and a black hat, and
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: then he straightened his suit after he turned around. I mean,
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: these are very subtle details when you're talking about that
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: far of a distance to be able to see the
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: fact that he passed a rifle off to somebody else,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: the fact that they broke it down and put it
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: into a toolbox and then walked away. And another thing
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: he said, Joe, was that he tried to get to
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: the parking lot behind the grassy. No or he did,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and by the time he got there, these people were
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: going well, no ship. But for him to be able
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: to get from where he was back to Dealey Plaza,
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: back behind the fence, I think at that point there
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: would have been a clog in in the vein thereof
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: trying to get to that area.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you'd have to at least get off the first
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: exit and make a couple of U turn side streets.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, come round the horn back to Elm Street, right,
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: you know. But very addressing stuff there.
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and one thing, of course, he says he went
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: to the FBI, and they he didn't go straight to
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: the FBI, Okay, he he went home.
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: Well, he stopped at a body shop first to talk
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: to a friend who was also deaf. Okay, so apparently
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: they had a sign language exchange.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: I was about to say to be a flyer on
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: the wall, but I guess that wouldn't really apply here.
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: And he was telling his friend excitedly what he had seen,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: and the other guys around the body shop are looking
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: at these two guys and were like, what the fuck
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: is going on? Like something, you know, like why are
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: you so animated? You know, like, which they first found amusing.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: They quickly changed her tune when it was explained to
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: them what Ed was saying, and someone turned on a
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: radio and they heard about the Kennedy shooting. After leaving
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: the body shop, Ed then visited his family's floral shop
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: to see his father, mister Frederick Kaufman, and on meeting
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: with his dad, ed signed to him, I saw them
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: shoot JFK. I saw who did it, which is kind
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: of interesting. But his dad was more worried about why
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: his son wasn't at work right. He didn't care that
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: he'd seen him, that he'd seen JFKB shot. He was
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: why aren't you at work, fucking tooth? Oh. He then
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: sternly told his son to get his ass to the
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: dentist and handle his and handle his tooth. The first
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: grind got in his car and drove back to Dallas
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: to the dentist.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: So, but it wasn't so wasn't his uncle. I guess
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: his father's brother a policeman as well. A policeman.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: I mean.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's I think going to play into this.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: Yep, we'll get there now. Once he got to the
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: dentist's office.
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you d W who became a spook level member.
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: Nice during the show, and you will have a lot
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: of shows to go back and watch some good stuff
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: on there.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yep, So thank you, sir. And uh So he goes
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: to the dentist, a guy by the name of doctor
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: is a wiki. Doctor's a wiki, and he's trying to
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: tell the people there what happened as he's drooling, and
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: they pound his mouth with novacane and laughing gas and
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: they just think he's I don't know. Nobody there spoke
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: sign language, so he could not properly convey what was
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: going on. They probably thought it was wrong with his mother,
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you know.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: To the dentist's office.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Well, he supposedly wrote them a note and he told
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: the Dennis on a piece of paper, he I saw them,
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: I saw them shoot JFK.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: Now after this happens, of course, he's driving back and
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: he hears on the radio that the president has indeed
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: died from his injuries. So he goes back to Daddy's
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: flower shop and appealed to him to call his uncle Robert,
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: who was a detective Indie Dallas Police Department, so Ed
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: could tell him his story. But by the time but
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: by the time he got there, his father also knew
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: the president was dead, but remained adamant on not informing
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: the police, his brother or anybody else about Ed seeing
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: the assassination, instead telling his son to go home and
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: let the police do their damn job.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: Don't get involved.
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Do not get involved. Frustrationing mounting. Ed then drove home and,
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: upon arriving, found his wife, Rosie, watching TV reports of
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: the assassination. Now Ed also had, like I said, he
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: had a wife excuse me, named Rosie and a daughter.
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: So he's a family man. You know, he's not a
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: crazy person. Doesn't seem like the kind of person who
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: would just make shit up like this, right, And when
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: he saw this suspected assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald on the television,
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: he signed to Rosie, that's not him. That's not the
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: man I saw. Now. So I'm not sure exactly what
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: day this is, Joe, but he would have seen Oswald
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: on the television, I'm guessing it would have been. It
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: might have been twenty second, probably was twenty third. But anyway,
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: this was Ed's and Rosie's wedding anniversary. It was their
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: seventh one that day.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: On the twenty second.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: Yes, I guess it was either the twenty second or
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: whenever he saw him on TV that weekend. That's their
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: wedding anniversary day. That's ironic, isn't it. So Rosie got
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: in the car with him and they drove back to
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: where he was standing a few days earlier or a
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: few hours earlier. So yeah, same day. So their anniversary
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: is the twenty second, Okay, So she drives back to
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: where he was standing so that he could tell her
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: or show her the view and what he saw, and
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: he was able to look down from the freeway and
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: see the fatally wounded president. Knowing her husband, Rosie had
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: no doubt that he was telling the truth. But it
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: wasn't until six days later, at his grandparents' house for
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: Thanksgiving dinner, that his dad finally agreed to let Ed
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: tell his uncle Robert what he knew. So, with Robert
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: being the detective in the Dallas Police Department, Ed's meeting
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: with him would be the first chance to download his
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: knowledge to someone in any kind of authority to do
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: something about it. But before allowing his son to speak
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: with Robert, Ed's father spent a few minutes talking with
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: his brother, during which Ed assumed his father was relaying
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: details of what he's seen. More likely, his father was
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: expressing concerns to Robert about Ed's safety and was enlisting
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: his aid in the task of protecting his son. Now,
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: the reason this is important is because at this point,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: folks you got to understand that Oswald is the shooter
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: by all accounts coming out of the Dallas Police Department,
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: and by this point Oswald had been shot and silenced,
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: and what Ed is saying that he saw does not
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: match the official story at all. Oswald couldn't have shot
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: on F. Kennedy from behind the grassy nole because he
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: was supposed to be in the Texas school book Depository
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: at the time, right, So you have to understand what
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Ed's family is thinking at this point. They're thinking, either
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: this motherfucker's crazy or he saw something that he shouldn't see,
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: and he's going to be in danger if he comes
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: out with this story, because the powers that be at
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: that point don't have much of an option. You know,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: if a well respected, upstanding member of the community with
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: a disability comes forward and says what he says he saw,
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: it could be a problem. It could throw a giant
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: wrench in everything. And we know what happened to people
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: you know who did this. They were labeled kukes, they
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: were dismissed as crazy, as unreliable people. And you know,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: at this time, you know, AEDs, a professional working for
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: a big company, obviously doing well for himself despite his disabilities.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: You know, it was probably frowned upon, you know, for
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: him to come forward at this time with the information
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: that he had that totally disrupted the official story, if
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: you will. But you know, he talked to his uncle
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and he said, your father's right, you should keep quiet
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: about this and you might be in danger. So Ed
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: didn't like that, knowing the real killers got away. And
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: then his uncle said, you keep quiet, you talk, you
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: get shot. So basically his uncle was telling him it's
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: threatening him. Look shut up, or you're going to get shot.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: It's not worth it. Just keep it to yourself and
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: move on with your life, right.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, some uncle must have had some great
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: foresight because obviously witnesses weren't getting killed that weekend yet,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: but he kind of knew how things went.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: Worked, right, Yeah, So you know, the warrant commission came
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: and went, and it wasn't until early summer of sixty
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: seven Joe, with help from his boss at Texas Instruments,
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: Ed Hoffman finally got an appointment with the FBI a
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: special agent, a man by the name of Special Agent
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Will Griffin. On June twenty eight, sixty seven, at the
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: Bureau of Field office in Dallas setting up the appointment.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: It was made clear to Griffin that Ed was a
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: deaf mute, Yet when he arrived at the field office
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: to meet the FBI agent, they didn't have a sign
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: language and interpret present. Yeah.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well of course you know today, when when there's
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: any press conference you have some in the corner doing.
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: This, they're reduced to passing notes at this point to
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: each other. Okay, right, so that's what they did. He
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: also said that the agent requested no clarification on what
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: he was saying, as in, the agent didn't ask him
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: any questions about a story. He basically just sat back
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: and let Ed write out his statement and give it
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: to them, and the FBI guy was like, he read it,
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: and he was like, okay, thank you, thanks for coming in. Bud.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Didn't ask him any questions, none of that. FBI reports
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: of the interview later released under the f f Freedom
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: of Information Act per Quinlan and Edwards, who wrote the
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: book quote, were vague and distorted, perhaps because of poor
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: communication or a deliberate attempt to discredit Ed's account. Agent
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Griffin's report is full of transcription errors, and the only
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: correct information on the report was Hoffman's address, the location
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: of where he was standing on Stemmens Freeway, his seeing
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: the two men behind the fence, and then he was
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: coming forward with his information against his father's advice. So
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: that's basically all the FBI reports said. There was no
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: report of Ed seeing a rifle, no report of the
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: puff of smoke, no report of the second man behind
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: the fence breaking down the rifle. Now, whether or not
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Ed didn't tell them this or he did, and of
• 37:57
  Speaker 2: course they left it out because it doesn't go with
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: the official story, right, throws into question Ed Hoffman's entire
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: narrative of this because maybe he did see something back
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: then that nagged at him for a couple of years
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: until he got to talk to the FBI. But again,
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: the entire story didn't come out until he was interviewed
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: for Jim Mars's books Crossfire. And then this as you
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: just saw on the men who killed Kennedy. He said,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: they said, this is the first time when does Ed
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Hoffman has been interviewed concerning this, So we're talking almost
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: thirty years later, I'm sorry, twenty years later at this time. Sorry,
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: So did he really or did his story grow with time?
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: Is what I'm trying to say, as most do. Uh,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I don't know what the truth is here,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: you know. According to Quinlan and Edwards, once Ed felt
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: that he communicated everything, Griffin collected Hoffman's notes and drawings. Then,
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: using gestures, he communicated back to Ed that he understood
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: by him, and reported by Quinlan and Edwards as follows
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: quote while raising an index finger, Joe, raise your index finger.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: He points to Ed and brings an index finger up
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: to his lips, as if to say, sh why Mime's
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: removing a wallet from his back pocket. Mime's giving Ed
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: something small with one hand, holds up one hand, palm
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: facing Ed with five fingers extended, indicating the number five.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: Griffin closes his hand into a fist twice indicating two
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: zeros five hundred. We'll give you five hundred bucks to
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: shut up. So now now, Ed Hoffman is saying that
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: the FBI tried to bribe him with five hundred dollars
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: to keep his mouth shut. Yes, Timothy, you are exactly correct.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Which is for me total a hard hard to believe.
• 40:33
  Speaker 2: It's a hard sell, right, It's a hard especially in
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: nineteen sixty seven. After all, this is said and done
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: and buried. The FBI is going to offer you five
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: hundred dollars to keep quiet. I mean, we've heard a
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: lot of things about the FBI over the years, but
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: offering potential eye witnesses money to shut up is not
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: one of them.
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: And especially a deaf mute witness. Right, you would just say,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you'd say shut the f up
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: because she thought, but something along those lines.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, But you know it was made clear by that
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: meeting with the FBI that Ed should just keep quiet.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: He got up and left without the money, of course,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: and you know his life went on.
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: And is this the one in nineteen sixty seven.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, Now they would also interview him again in
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy seven r HCA. Yes. At one point, he
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: even took a point of writing President Kennedy's brother, Senator
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: Edward Kennedy, in an attempt to share what he knew.
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: Senator Edward Kennedy responded that speculation about what really happened
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: to his brothers was painful for the family and that
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: if there was additional evidence to consider, it would be
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: the responsibility of the proper legal authorities to do so.
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy nine, after expecting for months to be
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: called as a witness to testify before the House Select Committee,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: but never being called, he wrote the commission or that
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: he wrote the committee to tell them what he knew.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: Of course, by nineteen seventy nine, Joe, the committee's done. Yep, dunski, Yep.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: They're done in January, and they were probably writing their
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: report well before that.
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, he did have another interview in seventy seven
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: with the FBI. It was not what the HSCA is,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we incorrectly stated a minute ago. Okay, it was not
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: for the HSCA. It was done by the FBI. Again,
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: he went down and tried to tell them what he knew,
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: again thinking that they would turn his story over to
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: the House Select Committee. But they never did. They never
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: called him. YadA, YadA, YadA. So that, in effect is
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: the Ed Hoffman story and where it gets us. Now,
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: very importantly, we should compare in contrast Ed Hoffman's story
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: with that of some of the other witnesses scattered around
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Daley Plaza that day. Did they see the same thing
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: that Ed Hoffman saw. There was Lee Bauers in the
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: Tower of Power back there, who was much much closer
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: than ed Hoffman to viewing the rear side of the
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: picket fence of the grassy.
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: Knoll, much in the perfect position. Yeah, I have been there,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: now we do have. You cannot be in a more
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: perfect position than lead boutwards once.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: Right, And we also have the testimony of some of
• 43:57
  Speaker 2: the guys who were on the triple overpass. Now granted, uh,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: they don't have the exclusive vantage point of seeing what's
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: behind the fence, right, but they're pretty damn close to
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: the to the fence, you know. It's a it's a
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: it's a walk down and then around the corner and
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: they're right there, which some of them say they did do. Yeah.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: So now let's hear from some of the other people
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: and try to figure out if these stories match what
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: Ed Hoffman has been saying for all these years.
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: Joe, Yeah, let's do it. And let's start as as
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: we like to do with same day testimony. Yes, and
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: there is no, of course, same day testimony for mister
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: hoff Hoffman. But for leeb hours there is work at
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the North Tower Union Terminal Company blah blah blah on
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: aother Friday tower where I work is west and a
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: little north of the TSBD. I was on duty today
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: at about eleven to fifty five AM, and I saw
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: a dirty fifty nine Oldsmobile station wagon come down to
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: the street. The street dead ends into the railroad yard.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: This car had an out of state license plates with
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: white background and black numbers, no letters. It also had
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: a gold Water for sixty four sticker in the rear window,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: which we've heard before. This car just drove around and
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: left the area, and he talks about a couple other cars.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Let's get past that. This car also had a gold
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Water for sixty four sticker. This car is driven by
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: white male twenty five to thirty five years old with
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: long typo same type license plates as the fifty ninebile.
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: He left this area about twelve to twenty five PM,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: which would be about five minutes before AFK was shot.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: About eight or ten minutes after he left, I heard
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: at least three shots very close together. Just after the shots,
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: the area became crowded with people coming from Elm Street
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and the slope just north of.
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: So same day, AFFI David Lee Bowers doesn't mention anything
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: about seeing anybody or any activity on the grassy knoll
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: or behind the fence line. Correct. Correct, he's talking about
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: cars in the parking lot basically at this point, Yes, sir,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: suspicious cars in the parking.
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: Lot, right, because he had obviously been working in that
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: tower for years, and he knew, like you would knew
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: the cars. You'd be like, this car goes, well, it
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: goes Oh, that's Kufu's a Martin, right, Yeah, like you
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: would be somewhat familiar. If there was a your ears
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: would perk up, or if there was like a bunch
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: of cars coming in that you had never seen before.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: So that's kind of what he's talking about here.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Right, But again, no mention of anything going on behind
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: the grassy offense line at this point.
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: Right, it continued, Yes, So let's go to his warrant
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: commissioned testimony. It was taken April second, sixty four in
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Dallas by mister Joseph Wall close to noon. Did you
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: make any observation of the area around between your tower
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: and Elm Street. Yes, because of the fact that the
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: area had been covered by police for some two hours
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: since approximately ten o'clock in the morning, Traffic had been
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: cut off into the area so that anyone moving around
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: could actually be observed. Since they had worked there for
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: a number of years. I was familiar with most of
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the people who came in and out of the area.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: Did you notice any other cars? Yes, there were some
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: cars coming in from time to time from around noon
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: until the time of the shooting. And it is bowers
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: testimony considering where he was, is like three pages long.
• 48:15
  Speaker 1: It's pretty short. So, mister ball, now, were there any
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: people standing on the high side high ground between your
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: towel and where Elmstreet goes down under the underpass, towards
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: the mouth of the underpass. Directly in line towards the
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: mouth of the underpass, there were two men, One man
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: middle aged or slightly older, fairly heavy set, in a
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: white shirt, fairly dark trousers, another younger man about mid twenties,
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: either in a plaid shirt or plaid coat or jacket.
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: Were they standing together.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Or oh, let me stop you right there, real quick,
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: sure quick. Now. What ed Hoffman said about the other
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: man that he handed the rifle to was that he
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: was a railroad worker. Okay, Now, don't you think that
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: Lee Bowers would know the uniform of a railroad worker?
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: I would think so, yes, I think, given his position.
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: Without question, without question, yes, right, so he would know
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: that the different uniforms of all the people working around
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: that area.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Right, So obviously the two people that he saw were
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: not either one was not a railroad worker.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree, thank you.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: Were they standing together or standing separately? They were standing
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: within fifteen ten or fifteen feet of each other and
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: gave no appearance of being together as far as I knew.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: In what direction were they facing? They were facing and
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: looking up towards Mean and Houston and following the caravan
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: as it came down. Did you see anyone standing on
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: the Triple Underpass? On the Triple Underpass, there were two policemen,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: one facing each direction, both east and west. There was
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: Terminal company, and two welders that worked for the Fort
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: Worth welding firm. See we're to your point, he could tell, yes,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: exactly who's with the welding firm with the Union terminal company, right,
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: And there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: railroad by these welders.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean when it comes to these people, right,
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: But not the two people that are either behind the
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: fence line or at the top of the grassy knoll
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: there where he can see. And I don't trust ed
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Hoffman's assessment of the other guy being a railroad employee.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know why he would have said that unless
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: you you know these railroad were you know, I think
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: of a conductor, and I think of the pinstriped shirts
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: that they wear, you know, and the pinstripe hats. But
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know if all railroad employees wear this, you know,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: goofy ass uniform. Do you know what I'm talking about, Joe.
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I do. And And also when you think
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: about these type of workers, how well do they know
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: each other? I mean, you, you know, kind of manage
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: a warehouse in a sense, right, like you know all
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: your employees, what they look like, what they're wearing.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean he was, like I said, he's very specific.
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: He even knew who the welders were, who the assistants were,
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: who the switchmen were, who the railroad employees were. Right,
• 51:52
  Speaker 2: he was very very specific. So I'm not sure, Joe,
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well, well let's uh, let's continue here and
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: we'll see if we can get any more context out
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: of it. Mister Ball, you saw those before the president
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: came by? You saw those people, Yes, they were there
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: before and after. Did you see any other people up
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: on this high ground? And I believe he's referring to
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: the knoll, right, mister boll Bowers. There was one or
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: two people in the area, not in the same vicinity.
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: a parking lot there, one or two.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Now real quick, So this parking lot, I believe somebody
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: asked about the parking lot. Yeah, Timothy says, I always
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: heard the parking lot was only available to railroad workers
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: and or cops. Well, that's true. The Dallas Sheriff's Office
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: rented this lot, so either employees could park there or
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: official I guess sheriff Department vehicles could park there.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: Municipal type of things, right.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: Because you know, the Dallas Sheriff's Office was you know,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: indially Plaza on the over on the other side off
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: of Houston and Maine, and they needed extra parking, if
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: you will, you know, in case their parking garage was
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: full on the street was full. This is kind of
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: overflow parking, I guess. But yes, they did rent that
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: area from the railroad yard. Yes, the ship Dallas Sheriff's office,
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: which is interesting.
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: Yep, it is. And I actually just found a picture
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: of Lee Bauers's tower that I'm gonna email myself really quickly,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: but before it continue.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: And I'm gonna throw a picture of what typical railroad
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: workers look like at this time, the you know, the
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: dingy overhauls. And when we get to like sm Holland,
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: this is the type of shit he was wearing, you know,
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: the overalls, the floppy hats, dirty, dirty look appearance, boots, hats,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: maybe not, I don't know. Now I understand this is
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: not you know, uh an official uniform if you will,
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: but this is what basically what guys working in a
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: rail rail yard at the time would have been wearing
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: dingy overhauls. It's a dirty job and uh, you know,
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: it would have been something like this. So this is
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: how Lee Bowers could have you know, told these guys
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: apart from other people, right.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: And let me see before we get into some of
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: their statements, the railroad employee statements, let me see if
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: I could share this without incident.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: You got Tim, yes, Sally, maybe he did assume, but
• 55:29
  Speaker 2: you know what happens when you assume, ma'am, you make
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: an ass out of you and me.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: That's true, Hm.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: But again with the Lee Bauers description basically of a
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: guy in dark trousers and a white shirt or a
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: guy wearing a plaid jacket, I mean that's pretty damn vague.
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: Not uniform esque really, yep. And then Bowers or I'm sorry,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: not Bowers, but Hoffmann said that he saw that the
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: other man, who was not the railroad worker, the shooter,
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: if you will, was wearing a black hat and a
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: dark blue suit jacket. Now he didn't mention the color
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: of the shirt. Maybe he forgot to say guy was
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: wearing a white shirt. Maybe Bowers forgot to say the
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: guy was wearing a dark blue suit jacket and a hat.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: But he could see that he had a white shirt on.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know where the truth lies there, but we'll
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: get there, I promise.
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So, just finishing up on mister Ball's statement, let
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: me just trying to figure out where I was here.
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: Did you see anyone standing on the Triple underpass, on
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: the Triple underpaths that were two policemen, one facing We
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: did this. You saw these before the President came by, Yes,
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: before and after? Did you see any other people in
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: the high ground? Or yes, I did go over this.
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry when you heard the sound, Which way were
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: you looking? Actually that ends up being relevant. Was his
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: motorcycle directed toward any particular people? He came up into
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: this area where there are some trees and where I
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: described the two men in the general vicinity of this
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: Where are the two men at the time, I, as
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: far as I know, one of them was the other
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I could not say. The darker dressed man was too
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: hard to distinguish from the trees. The one in the
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: white shirt, yes, I think he was, mister Bower says,
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: so this vague. Yes, this is the picture of Lee
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Bowers's tower that I took when I was in Daly Plaza.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: This was in twenty twenty three. I was with mister
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: Douglas and mister Monica Perez him and you, daughter of
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: Marina Lorenz, which was a very cool posse to be
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: a Daly Plaza with for your first time.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: I've heard they're going to tear it down at some point, yes, sir.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but of course, the the nul you know, the
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: this side right looks towards the Texas School Book Depository.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: Right the Texas Book Repository is I guess to the
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: east to the right of this picture. If you're looking
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: at it, it would be on the right side. And
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: if you follow this corner, it's kind of lines up
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: with the corner of the grassy knoll. The pickapets vaguely
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: but somehow who we will hear from in a second
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: same day, eleven twenty two DPD statement signed and notarized.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: I am a signal supervisor for the Union terminal and
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: I was inspecting signal and switches and stop to watch
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: the parade. I was standing on top of the Triple
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: Underpass and the President's car was coming down Elm Street,
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: And when they got just about to the arcade, I
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: heard what I thought for a moment was a rifle firecracker,
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: and he slumped JFK slumped over, and I looked over
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: toward the arcade again the knoll area and trees and
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: saw a puff of smoke come from the trees, and
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I heard three more shots fired after the first shot,
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: but that was only but that was the only puff
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: of smoke I saw. I immediately ran around to where
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: I could see behind the arcade, and did not see
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: anyone running from there. But the puff of smoke I
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: saw it definitely came from behind the arcade through the trees.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: After the first shot, the President slumped over. Miss Kennedy
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: jumped up, tried to get over the back seat. Blah
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: blah blah. We know that after the first shot the
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: secret serviceman raised up in the seat with a machine gun. Yes,
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 1: and the follow up bar and then everything dropped back
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: down in the seat, and then they immediately sped off.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Everything is spinning in my head. And if I remember
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: anything else later, I will come back and tell Bill
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: that Bill show Bill Deck Decker. Yes, maybe so, but.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: You gotta remember it. You know that this again, this
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 2: area is rented by the Sheriff's Department in Dallas. And
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: these sheriffs, you know, knew these railroad workers. You know,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 2: they're good old boys. They would they would talk to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: him all the time. He knew who Bill Decker was,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: obviously on a first name basis.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 10: With him on first name basis, Yes, you to call
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 10: him Bill, not Sheriff Decker, right, yeah, uh yeah. And
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 10: indicates some familiarity there for sure.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: And and he said four shots and definitely a puff
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: of smoke coming from the tree arcade area.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it does match what ed Hoffman said, But again
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: ed Hoffman could have gotten that from this.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: So let's I have something from S. M. Holland here.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Oh, Skinny Holland, give me a second. Yeah, like Timmy's aid,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: total badass, old Skinny Holland. Yeah, Jack said during at
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: this time, he said Holland was only fifty seven, but
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: he looks eighty. Yeah.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, so.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Hey it's a hard life boy of a railroad worker.
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is very true.
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: There's unfiltered cigarettes at the time.
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah right.
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, me and James are on the same way to
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: live here unfiltered camels, Yes, sir, they'll do it.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 1: Excuse me, all right, I have this all queue up.
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: Tracking Chicken supera. The Union Railroad put in forty one
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: years of railroad furs and the sigma part.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: Did you look he just said forty one years. So
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: he is at least like fifty or sixty or something.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: Well that yeah, I mean if he started when he
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: was sixteen working in a railroad, that's believable. You could
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 2: be fifty seven.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is sixty six in any particular direction.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: When you've heard the shots.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: Yes, I looked over to where I thought that the
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 3: shot came from, and I saw a puffet smoke still
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 3: lingering underneath the trees in front of the wooden fence.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: The report sounded like it came from behind the wooden fence,
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: and a policeman throwed his motorcycle down in the middle
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 3: of the street and run up the embankment with his
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: pistol drunk. He was running toward that particular spot, and
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: also another motorcycle policeman right behind him, tried to ride
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 3: up the embankment on his motorcycle and it turned over
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 3: about halfway up the embankment and he got out. He
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: got off his motorcycle and left it laying there and
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 3: run on over to the fence that is gunning the fen.
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 9: Where do you think the shots came from?
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 3: Well, I know where that third shot came from. Where
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: did that shot come from? Behind the picket fence? Is
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 3: there a lost of the little plaza? Is there any
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: doubt in your mind that that shot came from behind?
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: There's no doubt in my mind. There's no doubt whatsoever
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: in my mind. And the statement that I made in
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: the Sheriff's office immediately after the shooting and the statement
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: that I made to the Warrant Commission, and I made
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: it very plain, there was no doubt in my mind
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: what they were definitely a shot hard behind that picket fence.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 2: All right. Now, there is some problems with Sam Holland's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: story here. Obviously we have a lot of photos and
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: footage from that day. I have never seen anything of
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: a motorcycle cop driving their motorcycle halfway up the grassy
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: knole and then ditching it and then running up there.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: Now there is a motorcycle that can be seen in
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: photographs on its side down on the road, but not
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: halfway up the grassy knoll.
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: I think that's probably what he's Yeah, two, it's probably
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 1: a little mistake in there. Seems very very confident of
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 1: where the third shot or the last shot came from.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: And again this is before Garrison, right, this is six
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: uh And unlike mister Hoffman, we just showed you as
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: some Hollins day of affidavit, he did say the same thing.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: So, but it could have been some poor bastard smoking
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: a cigarette behind the grass, you know, who just had
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: a very poor time to exhale.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Could have been.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Never know you smoke, could have been could have been
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: big bad boy back there vaping.
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, and and did you see uh did you
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: see the vaping of the time Mark Lane And yeah
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: that's man.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the vain Garrison pipes. Yeah.
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And now we now we're just the now we
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: just have.
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, although I believe in ages is less.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, So yeah, this is back to sm Holland's statement.
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: Uh yeah, age fifty seven.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but definitely saw the puff of smoke come from
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: behind the trees, through the trees. So uh, now let's
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: go to Austin Miller again, same day statement.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: We like to see a little bit of a Miller.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we prefer these same day statements over late statements
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: for whatever whatever reason they say, we prefer that's right.
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: Business business addresses Texas blah blah blah blah blah blah.
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: Roy I and Roy Shelton, who works with me. We'll
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: get to his statement next. Was standing now, were was
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: standing on the trip triple misspelled underpass bridge with a
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: large group of people watching for the president.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 2: I saw.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 1: I saw a convertible automobile turned west on Elm Street
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: off Houston Street. I don't know he proceeded about halfway
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: from Houston Street to the underpass when I heard what
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: sounded like a shot. A short second, two more sharp reports.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 1: Of course we always hear this a shot and then
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: too close together. This we almost hear from everybody, almost
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: every right, which of course does not lend to the
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: credibility of a bolt ex rifle, especially the third shot
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: being this perfect shot that someone who sucks at shooting
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: could not shoot. Anyways, I digress. A man in the
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: back seat slumped over were and a woman in a
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: bright colored dress grabbed the man and yelled, I think
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: he's talking, Jackie. One shot apparently hit the street past
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: the car. That's an interesting statement. I saw something which
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: I thought was smoke or steam coming from a group
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: of trees north of Elm off of the railroad tracks.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: I did not see anyone on the tracks or in
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: the trees. A large group of people concentrated also spelled
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: wrong concreted, and a motorcycle.
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: He was taking these depositions at the SHAS office.
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: It's that same lady, Patty.
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: I'm sure she had a lot of these to do
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: that day.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: I did not see so right, I did not see
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 1: anyone on the tracks or in the trees. A large
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: group of people above by said that a motorcycle go
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: officer dropped his motor and almost looks like mother and
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: took off on foot to the car. Interesting, So that's
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Austin Miller. Okay, Now I am going to and I'm
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: doing this for a reason. The art of this is
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: an article written by Stewart, who I have. Yeah, do
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 1: you know this guy?
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: I have heard him. He wrote a book called cover Up.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: He did, and he wrote this article which was the
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: art of misresem misrepresenting evidence. And he specifically goes on
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: on the offensive on Posner's Yeah, and talks about how
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: Posner tried to discredit the witness testimony of the railroad workers.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: Right Posner's claim railroad workers on the overpass could not
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: have seen puffs of smoke from rifle fire on the
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: knoll because modern ammunition is smokeless. It seldom creates even
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: a wisp of smoke. Case closed, page two fifty six.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: Evidence Posner's claim is easily disproved by visiting our rifle range.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: Just watch people shoot. Puffs of smoke will be seen
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: all over the place. Even if a government investigation conceded
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: that modern weapons do in fact emit smoke when fired HSCA,
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: page six O six. Another posner claim, Edward J. Epstein,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: in Inquest, writes five of the witnesses on the overpass
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: said they had also seen smoke rise from the grassy
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: knoll area. Epstein's citation only lists four names, three of
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: which do not support the claim. Evidence there are seven
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: well documented witnesses who claimed to have seen smoked on
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 1: the knoll. They are sm Holland we heard from and
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: saw his day of James Simmons. I'll get to that.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: Richard Dodd, I'll get to him too, both interviewed by
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Mark Lane, Walter Winborne, Thomas Murphy, Austin Miller. We just
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: read him. And reporter Ed Johnson, who wrote for his
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: paper the next day, saw some of us saw little
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: puffs of white smoke that seemed to hit the grassy
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: area in the slant that divides Dallas Meadtown streets. So
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: it could have been you and me vaping behind the knoll.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: I just I was gonna put this at the end.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: But I forget Hoffman in this. So there would be
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 2: eight total witnesses who say they who say they saw
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: smoke on the knoll right.
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: He does go on to discredit Hoffman. I'm gonna get
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: to that, yeah slide. This is Roy Skelton again.
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 2: God dam Roy Skelton.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: He was standing with Austin Miller. Standing with Austin Miller,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: we saw the motorcade come around the corner and I
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: heard something which I thought was firework severtimes. We heard that.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: I saw something hit the pavement at the left rear
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: of the car. Then the car got in the right
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 1: hand lane and I heard two more shots. I heard
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: a woman say oh no or something. I grab a
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 1: man inside the car. I then heard another shot and
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: saw the bullet hit the pavement. The concrete was knocked
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: to the south away from the car typo. It hit
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: the pavement to the left or middle lane. I then
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: went down to my car radio to see if I
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: could find out what happened. After I came back up,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: a policeman asked me if I had seen anything and
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: brought me back to the Sheriff's office.
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: So that's a wild story.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, Then you have mister Frank Riley, who was not
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: interviewed by the DPD it's not to have a day
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: of statement, but was interviewed by the warrant commission by
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: of course, mister Joseph Ball, the original How many people? Yeah,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: how many people were there on the overpass at the time?
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: Just what I told you? Tell me again. Well, there
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: was Holland and me and Dick Dodd and these two
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: fellows out there and the two policemen. That's all I
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: remember seeing out there. Did you hear something? Yes? What
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: did you hear? Three shots? Where did they seem to
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: come from? What direction? It seemed to me like they
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: come out of the trees, the trees, not the tsbt
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: come out of the trees. What trees on the north
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: side of Elm Street at the corner up there, on
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: the north side of Elm On what corner? Well, where
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: all those trees are? You've never been down there, mister Ball. Yeah,
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: I've been down there, But you tell me. I want
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: you to tell me because it has to go on
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: record here and has to be in writing. Well, it
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: was at that park where all the shrubs is up there.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe you should have done this in your Texas accent.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: It said the north of Elm Street, up the slope.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: Did you see any pigeons fly? Of course, changes is
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: why I included this changes the narrative question. The direct
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: is not going as he planned. So did you see
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 1: any pigeons fly? No? I didn't penny to pay no
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: attention to that. So you could see the how the
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: warrant commission attorneys kind of you know, influence the the
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: the testimony.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So now we're gonna go to James L. Simmons.
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 11: And so all these railroad workers were interviewed rob on
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 11: either March nineteenth, sixty four, March eighteenth, or March twentieth,
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 11: like all of them are.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: I guess they must have gotten word that all these
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: people saw smoke within the knoll. So the FBI sends
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: everyone to reinterview all the the you know, the people
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: on top of the warrant missionsons.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: The FBI back out, Yes.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is mister Simmons said. He said, said
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 1: he thought he saw exhaust fumes of smoke near the
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: embankment in front of Texas Schoolbook Depository building. Simmons then
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: ran down there advised that it was opinion that the
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: shots came from the direction of the TSBD. So this
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: is what the FBI is doing here. He's on the
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: the Triple Overpass. Of course, the shots came from the
• 1:17:22
  Speaker 1: direction of the TSBD because the it's in between the
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: picket fence and the grassy knolls, in between that and
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: the TSBD, So they're kind of carefully yeah. Yeah, and
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: it has actually pointed out by this author and it's
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: on the next slide. Another SKUFFU was a Nolan Potter
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: no DPD interview either. FBI interviewed three nineteen again, like
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: I told you, union terminal hostel or helper whatever that
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: is standing on the Triple Underpass, heard three shot reports,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: thought firecrackers, could not tell origin, saw smoke rising above trees.
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: FBI again, same date. He then saw President Kennedy slump
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: over in his car drive through the underpass. Porter said
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: he recalls seeing smoke in front of the TSBD building
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 1: rising above the trees. Again wordings in front of the
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 1: TSBD rising above the trees. If Oswald was on the
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: sixth floor firing, guess what the smoke from his shot
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 1: would not be rising from the sixth floor window according
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 1: to this. So you can see how they're again making
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: it seem like it came from the TSBD. Uh, let's see. Uh, actually,
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: let's go to my next YouTube presentation. YouTube presentation. YouTube
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 1: video with another railroad worker. I could fucking find it
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: one of these days.
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to There was a there was a
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: picture if anybody knows who took it of alleged the
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: alleged puff of smoking daily Plaza. I was trying to
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: find it to see if I can show you guys.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: But uh, googling that is not helping me very much.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 2: It's not a Mormon photograph, do you know that? Yeah?
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: All right, let me get this.
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: For some reason, the stupid thing, it's not coming up
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 1: on my YouTube accounts. So I'm emailing it to myself
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: and I'm gonna bring it up in one second. Oh
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: technology bro, so gotta love it.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 2: Six floor museums not working? Uh, I mean's six jas gags.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Oh nothing, I'm trying to find the picture
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 2: with the smoke in it.
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: Okay, Well, while you do that, let me talk to
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: Let's hear from James Simmons, who we just talked about,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: and he was also on the railroad. He was also
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 1: a railroad worker, and he was the one who they
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: kind of the FBI kind of fudged his testimony to
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: make it seem like the shots came from the direction
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: of the TSBD. But let's hear what he has to
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: say to Mark Lane in nineteen sixty six and here
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: we hopefully there was a loud explosion.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 12: At the time, I didn't know what it was, but
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 12: it sounded like old firecracker or gunshot, and it sounded
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 12: like it came from the left and in front of us,
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 12: towards the wooden fence. And there was a puff of
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 12: smoke that came underneath the trees on the embankment.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 3: Where was the puff of smoke, mister Simmons, in relation
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: to the wooden fence.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 12: It was roughed directly in front of the wooden fence.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: I'd show you a picture published by the Warren Commission
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 3: as Commission Exhibit number twenty two fifteen, which is a view.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: Of the Triple Underpass area. Ask if you'd be good
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 1: enough to mark with this pen with an axe the
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 1: area where you thought the shots came from and where
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: you saw the smoke. It was this barrier here.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to figure out where that be. The top
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: of the grassy no elm Street is uh, of course marked? Yeah,
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: allow some acreage there for the grassy knoll, and it
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 2: would have been right on top neither the fence line
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 2: or behind the fence line. I think that dotted line, Joe,
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: is the fence line. I could be wrong. I don't know.
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe that's an angle thing, but it's top of the
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: grass and real quick, Joe, I found the photo of
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: the alleged puff of smoke. This was obviously shot by
• 1:23:37
  Speaker 2: one somebody like Darnell or Wigman or Couch who was
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: in the motorcade with a video camera. This is a
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: still after they had gone past the school book depository. Now,
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: I doubt that a puff of smoke would be lingering
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: this load to the ground after the shots, after this
• 1:23:59
  Speaker 2: long after the shots. I could be wrong. I mean,
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: I don't know, you know, I guess it would be
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: a factor of many things, including the wind and you know,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: density of the air that day, you know, who knows,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 2: But that circled there in the upper right corner would
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: be the puff of smoke. Now, if you see the
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 2: second circled image right next to the car that is
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 2: in this photo, that is the limousine, JFK's limousine. So
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: technically that I guess that could be a puff of smoke,
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: you know, from a shot. Really yeah, if it's wafting
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: out from the grassy no area, you know, behind the
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: fence line.
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: Especially if there was more than one shot from there. Yeah,
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 1: it definitely looks not like leaves.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 2: Right and you can see the triple overpass from there,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: and you could see how these railroad railroad workers who
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 2: are up there would have seen this thing floating down
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: from the grass, you know, and talk about it. You know, now,
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: is this car exhaust from a car that's backed up
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: to the to the picket fence up on the hill.
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: Is this, you know, a big pipe hit or you know.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: Cigarette pos Posner tries to say that this puff of
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: smoke was actually motorcycle backfire exhaust type.
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: You can say anything. I mean, we just know, I
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: I what it's from. I know, I know.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: Job just I'm just letting you know how he has
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: has tried it.
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: Could be anything, but the timing of it with shots
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 2: being alleged to come from that area is suspect.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 1: And the corroboration of multiple witnesses saying the same thing
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 1: for me, but uh for sure, So let me I
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 1: only have a couple more slides here, Uh once I
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: and Rick Rick does say, if you remember, Joe, there
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 1: are steam pipes.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: Uh, there used to be up there on the grassy knoll.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 2: You remember, I've seen interviews of people saying that they
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 2: had to step over them, you know, to get around
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: up there. They're not there anymore, but the giant steam
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: pipes were up there, so it could have been maybe
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: they released steam every once in a while. But you
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 2: think the railroad workers would know that not a tribute
• 1:26:58
  Speaker 2: that to being smoked.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, because they would have seen that everything right, right,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 1: so they would have obviously known the difference. I mean, listen,
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 1: these are blue collar guys who don't have a dog
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: in the fight in my opinion. So we just heard
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 1: from mister Simmons, right, and how his FBI statement here
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: is completely different than what he told Mark Lane. You have,
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: mister Nolan Potter, no DPD interview either, although interviewed by
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: the FBI, and that same time where they interviewed all
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: the Triple Underpass observers. I actually read this already, recall
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: seeing us puff of smoke. Well where then I go
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: to an HSCA administrative folder by Mark Lane, and I
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 1: think this is from some of his interviews.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 2: That yeah, yeah, yeah, transcribe.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: Well, I know where the third shot came from this
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 1: is S. M. Holland we heard him say that from
• 1:28:10
  Speaker 1: behind the picket fence. He is there any doubt, No,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 1: there's no doubt in my mind. We saw that. Now
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 1: we go to Richard Dodd. No DPD statement or a
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: Warrant Commission interview. That would have been Dick dot Yeah,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 1: that would have been, you know, problematic. Dick Dodd was
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: also at the overpass. Anything which you might indicate to
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 1: where you were to where the shots came from. DoD Well,
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: all three seem four soon about the same thing. And
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 1: the shot and the smoke came from behind the hedge
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: on the north side of the plaza, and a motorcycle
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: policeman dropped the motorcycle in the street with his gun
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: in his hand and ran up the embankment to the hedge.
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 1: And then I went north to look around the corner,
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: like a lot of the workers did.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: They ran to the knoll as well, like a lot
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: of people, to see if there was anything anyone behind
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 1: the hedge. And met a special agent of the something railroad.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 1: Gady can't railroad, I don't know, And he went down
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: there and I walked along with him to see if
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: there was any tracks there, which there were tracks and
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 1: cigarette butts, which, of course we have heard a lot
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: about the land where someone had been standing on a bumper.
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: I believe he means a car bumb like like mud
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 1: on the hood of a car, which is interesting. Again,
• 1:29:56
  Speaker 1: someone completely ignored, but was.
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 2: There dick doc dirty dick DoD.
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: Posner's claim. We're going to go back to this article.
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 2: By Stuart eleanor.
• 1:30:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you Posner claim. James Simmons, who we heard from
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 1: last said to the FBI he thought the shots came
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: from the book depository and he saw exhaust flames from
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: the embankment. We just read that right evidence. This is
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 1: indeed what two FBI agents claim Simmons said to them
• 1:30:33
  Speaker 1: in March of sixty four. The FBI report, however, is
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: a fabrication. One of Posmer's main flaws, which he shares
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 1: with Warrenck Commission, is his unquestioning reliance on hearsay reports
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: of FBI agents. Many witnesses contradicted what was in their
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: FBI reports, and Simmons was one of them. As we
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: just saw Simmons stole Mark Lane in a filmed interview.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: We just went through that. I'm not gonna repeat it next.
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: Posner claim Austin Miller thought the smoke he saw was steam,
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 1: like you just mentioned, right, there was a steam pipe
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 1: among the wooden fence near the edge of the Triple Underpass.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 1: If there was smoke, it was most likely that Austin
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: Miller was right and it came from the steam pipe.
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: Evidence not quite. Posner does not accurately accurately represent what
• 1:31:27
  Speaker 1: Austin Miller said in a swore statement to the DPD
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: on November twenty second. Austin Miller, and we did go
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 1: over this said I saw something which I thought was
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 1: smoke or steam coming from a group of trees north
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: of Elm Street, off the railroad tracks. So you could
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: see because he said steam. They are now kind of
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: representing this right Posner's When he was questioned four and
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 1: a half months later by the commission that would be
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 1: by Councilor David Beelin, he was not asked one question
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: about the smoke or steam he observed. Interesting the steam
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 1: pipe that Posner refers to can be seen in the
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 1: film Rushed to Judgment. It is over one hundred feet
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 1: away from the point of the knoll where smoke was
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 1: over observed by seven witnesses. No one reported smoke or
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: steam at the location of the steam pipe. If a
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: steam pipe had been the cause of the smoke at
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: the site the steam pipe of the grassy knoll, one
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 1: would expect the steam or smoke to have been seen. Again,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 1: no such sightings occurred. Posner has a tendency to miss
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 1: represent what the witness has said. He criticizes another author
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 1: for listing Victoria Adams as a witness who ticked the
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: knoll as the origins of the shot, which he actually
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: described the shots as coming from the vicinity of the
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: book depository. So this is what they do, right, the
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 1: loan nutters. They pick and choose. We go to Clement
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 1: Johnson here, who was another railroad worker. God, these fucking
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: ws saw whites.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: They're like, you're kryptonite.
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 1: Saw white smoke, but told the FBI it came from
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 1: a motorcycle abandoned near the spot behind a Dallas policeman.
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: Case closed, page two fifty six. I'm sorry, thank you
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: the hiccups. That was Posner's claim evidence the railroad workers
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: saw puff of smoke right after they heard the shot.
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: There was no motorcycle on the knoll at that time,
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 1: as clearly shown in photographs taken by witness Wilma Bond
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: after the assassination. Life Magazine, November twenty fourth, sixty seven.
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: Positives presentation of the evidence of the assassination is deceptive
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: and contrived. He is so confident of his arguments, so
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 1: disdainful of the questions that have been raised, that he
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: is deposed to make any argument, no matter how fatious,
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 1: fuck or facious. That No, it doesn't read like that.
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: It's misspelled. It's it's probably is, but facetious. If that's
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: how it's spelled, that's on me. That alone not killed
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: Kennedy to say otherwise in the light of overwhelming evidence,
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: he tells us in case closed, it is to absolve
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 1: a man with blood on his hands until mock the
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: President and his preference. Preface, Positor explains why the public
• 1:34:48
  Speaker 1: has been particularly receptive to conspiracy theories, and one reason
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: he gives is that the public receptivity god to the
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 1: theories is also fed by suspicions that politicians lie and
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: cover up misdeeds. So, essentially calling out Posner, mister Stewart
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: Gallanor's book cover Up documents, the disturbing measures taken by
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 1: our government to cover up a conspiracy. So he's kind
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 1: of focusing on that. And I'm ending with an HCA
• 1:35:27
  Speaker 1: evaluation of all these witnesses conclusion those witnesses who saw
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: smoke on the knoll could conceivably have been correct. Gunfire,
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: even smokeless ammunition, does cause smoke visible to the eye.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: This smoke, if the testimony is correct, would have come
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: from the area of the grassy knoll. So even the
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: HCA is admitting that. And yeah, I think the evidence
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: is overwhelming. There was smoke coming from the knoll. The
• 1:36:02
  Speaker 1: question is was mister ed Hoffman there on the joining
• 1:36:11
  Speaker 1: Stemens freeway to see it or not? Or did he
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 1: concoct it later correct? That is the question. And before
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: I get your random thoughts, your last thoughts on this, Rob,
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: I have one thing I want to play, Yes, something
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: that concerns me a little bit, to be honest, and
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: this is from a conference in nineteen ninety four at
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: Dealey Plaza let me see forty nine oh seven. This
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: is concerning to me, Rob, and I'm gonna I'm gonna
• 1:37:08
  Speaker 1: tell you why after I play it, and hopefully I'll
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: make it to my hockey game.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 13: I went into the lobby of the FBI, and I
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 13: met this woman there and I gave my name, Ed Hoffman,
• 1:37:20
  Speaker 13: and I said, oh fine, so he called. She called
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 13: the man that was supposed to come down to talk
• 1:37:25
  Speaker 13: to me, the agent from the FBI. And I noticed
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 13: the lobby had pictures all throughout the lobby, and I
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 13: was looking at these pictures and I said, no, no, no,
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 13: I'm sorry. I don't want to talk. I don't want
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 13: to talk with I don't want to talk with them.
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 13: I feel that it's very dangerous and I don't want
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 13: the CIA to know. There were pictures of the c
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 13: I c I A all over the lobby and I
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 13: said I did not want to talk to the CIA.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 13: I wanted to talk to the FBI.
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: And she told.
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 1: How would he know, I'll say, he's in a government
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 1: building in Dallas, which pictures were FBI or CIA? And
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: why under j Agahova would he feel more comfortable talking
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: to the FBI. Let me let me continue because it
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: gets a little worse.
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 13: But we not to worry that we would be talking
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 13: to the FBI. So I sat down more relieved at
• 1:38:25
  Speaker 13: that time, and the FBI agent came out to meet me,
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 13: and I opened something that was in my pocket. Oh
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 13: excuse me. The FBI showed me their badge, and I
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 13: felt more relieved at that time because I was deaf
• 1:38:41
  Speaker 13: and I really didn't know. You know, my I've heard
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 13: all these stories about the CIA, and I really didn't
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 13: want to be involved with him at that time. So
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 13: the FBI, I was very accepting of that. So after
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 13: I had seen his BADGERO went into his office and
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 13: sat down.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 1: You heard stories of CIA in nineteen sixty seven, right,
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 1: it's interesting.
• 1:39:04
  Speaker 13: And we established the preliminaries with my name and everything,
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 13: and they wanted to know what I saw. So I
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 13: wrote down and illustrated everything I could on a piece
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 13: of paper, and you know, his expressions were changing as
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 13: I was doing this, and he looked very concerned. And
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 13: then I looked over and there was a big mirror
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 13: all along the wall. I noticed that for the first time.
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 13: The FBI said, don't worry, that's nothing.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 1: Of course, that would be like a you know, a
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: mirror in an interrogation room right where you have the
• 1:39:43
  Speaker 1: the spooks on the other side of it, right right
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: that We've seen the movies.
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 13: And the FBI agent decided that I shouldn't say much more.
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 13: He took my paper that I had written down my
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 13: story and illustrated what happened and about the fens and
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 13: the gunman, and he said for me not to say
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 13: much more. And he was offering me money, and I
• 1:40:20
  Speaker 13: was very shocked by that. I was extremely shocked by that.
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 13: And they wanted to know how much I wanted, and
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 13: I told him to thank you. They wanted to give
• 1:40:28
  Speaker 13: me money to keep me quiet, and I said, I
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 13: don't want that money. I don't know what that's for.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 13: That means, what are you planning to do with this story.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 13: It's not necessary to give me money. I'm a witness
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 13: and that's all I want. It's my truth. I can't
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 13: tell you a lie. I mean, here I am. I'm
• 1:40:49
  Speaker 13: ready to give you the story, and this is the truth.
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 13: And I have to continue in the truth. I cannot
• 1:40:55
  Speaker 13: accept money bribery to tell a lie. I cannot do that.
• 1:41:00
  Speaker 13: I'm in a stancher and I'm going to continue with
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 13: my truth. And he said okay, but he started by
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 13: saying this. He told me to shut up, and he
• 1:41:08
  Speaker 13: looked at me very angrily when he said this, and
• 1:41:11
  Speaker 13: I said, okay, fine, and I left his office.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 13: First he was very friendly, and then he got angry
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 13: because I wouldn't accept his bride money, and so I
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 13: left at that time. As time went on, I went
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 13: back home and I thought maybe my father wouldn't know.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 13: So I went into the house and my uncle, now
• 1:41:39
  Speaker 13: my father, excuse me. My father had a very strange
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 13: expression on his face as I walked up to him.
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 13: And I walked over to my father, he said, did
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 13: you go see the FBI? And I could not lie.
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 13: I mean I just could not lie to my father.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 13: My father was a very strict man. You know, I
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 13: grew up in a very strict home, and that was
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 13: how did his that.
• 1:42:01
  Speaker 1: Know he went to go speak to the FBI.
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 13: That's how I've been raised. So I confessed, I said, yes,
• 1:42:09
  Speaker 13: I did. I went to the FBI, and as gravely
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 13: as he could, he was looking at me and he said,
• 1:42:16
  Speaker 13: you know, you know best they're going to kill you. You
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 13: know they're going to kill you someday. I don't know when,
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 13: I don't know how, but this is going to be
• 1:42:23
  Speaker 13: dangerous for the family and the uncle. Your uncle is
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 13: very worried. You know, we really like you to be
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 13: able to stay with our family. We don't want you
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 13: to have to do anything strange. I said, I know,
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 13: but I could I You know, I have wiped my
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 13: slate clean. I feel much better. I've made myself feel better.
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 13: I know I can focus on my family. This has
• 1:42:43
  Speaker 13: made me very happy. It's been a pleasure for me
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 13: to be able to express that. I said, I cannot
• 1:42:48
  Speaker 13: continue with sleepless nights. I needed to be able to
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 13: let it out.
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 2: All right. Who he's making me tired of watching him?
• 1:43:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah? And that I believe is his daughter translating. Yeah, narrating.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 1: I guess that is the right word. So yeah, man, listen.
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 1: I came into this week when you told me the
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 1: topic thinking Ed Hoffman was an extremely reliable witness. Again,
• 1:43:27
  Speaker 1: I first saw him when I viewed the men who
• 1:43:31
  Speaker 1: killed Kennedy, and I was like, why would this deaf
• 1:43:33
  Speaker 1: you lie? Then I found out there are no day
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 1: of affidavits. He did go to the FBI in sixty seven.
• 1:43:45
  Speaker 1: He did say some things that corroborates with you know,
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 1: some railroad workers. I'm not sure how much of that
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 1: information is out as usual.
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 2: Was in the Warren Report. Most of it.
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, that's true animal judgement, Yeah, yeah, yeah, true
• 1:44:06
  Speaker 1: as always, I think there was some truth and some
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: exaggeration as time went on.
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: A lot of people over the years have wanted to
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 2: insert themselves into this story for whatever reasons. There's a
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: variety of reasons, whether it be fame, fortune, recognition, attention, money,
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: what have you. You know, I don't think money was
• 1:44:36
  Speaker 2: a contributing factor with Hoffman. Possibly attention, you know, I mean,
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 2: you got to understand how rough of a life this
• 1:44:45
  Speaker 2: guy must have had growing up and to be in
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 2: his mid twenties twenty seven when this happened. You know,
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he did get a cracked moler that day.
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he did go to the dentist that day,
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 2: so there is an opportunity for him to have seen
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: this and he crafted this narrative for attention for whatever reason.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not making a claim that you
• 1:45:13
  Speaker 2: know Ed Hoffman is a total liar, but we've seen
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: this before with various people for whatever reason. You know,
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: it could be mental illness for all we know, you know,
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: insert themselves into the narrative of the Kennedy assassination.
• 1:45:34
  Speaker 1: Right, And whether it's the things I had were stolen,
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: you know, I was intimidated et cetera.
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: You know, there are Yeah, like I said, I'm sure
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 2: this guy had a rough life man, especially back then,
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: being deaf, mute and you know, making in life. But
• 1:45:57
  Speaker 2: he seemed to have a good job and a wife
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: and a kid, a family that cared about him, you know.
• 1:46:04
  Speaker 2: And you know, it's just hard to gauge the why
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 2: of why somebody would do this, but you know when
• 1:46:13
  Speaker 2: you when you compare and contrast it with what everybody
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: else saw and what he had the opportunity to read
• 1:46:19
  Speaker 2: about because later on in life, Ed Hoffman was a
• 1:46:23
  Speaker 2: voracious JFK. Researcher, if you will. He had read a
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: lot of stuff in the eighties and nineties, you know,
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: when it came to all this stuff, right, and he
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: admitted it, you know, he admitted it. You know, he
• 1:46:42
  Speaker 2: became kind of like James t. You know, somebody that
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: was there, somebody who could have a narrative and somebody
• 1:46:50
  Speaker 2: who was consumed by this.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: Whole thing, right by this monumental event that changed world history.
• 1:47:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, and for whatever reason, Ed Hoffman decided
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 2: to insert himself into this story. And you know, there
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: was a picture that I was trying to find Joe
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 2: of a DPD officer and I've seen it before that
• 1:47:21
  Speaker 2: had ran over to the Triple overpass and is standing
• 1:47:25
  Speaker 2: up on the concrete pediment up there. And and it
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 2: was a motorcycle officer because he has a helmet on
• 1:47:32
  Speaker 2: and he's standing up on the concrete pediment with all
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 2: kinds of people around him. And it's at the very
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 2: end of the picket fence line up near the Triple Overpass,
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 2: kind of up in the corner there where the where
• 1:47:44
  Speaker 2: the overpass meets yeah, oh yeah, and he's standing up there,
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: and it's pretty famous photo. I haven't I couldn't find it,
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: but I did find this. Yeah.
• 1:47:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, we know there was a coffin too on
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: top of the over the overpass.
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 2: Cops up there. But this guy was dressed like a
• 1:48:04
  Speaker 2: motorcycle cot he had to helmet on. So he had
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 2: obviously ran up the grassy knoll to the area where
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: he thought shots were coming from. Right, And this is
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 2: a picture I found out of the steam pipe and
• 1:48:20
  Speaker 2: the and the view behind the grassy old fence shortly
• 1:48:25
  Speaker 2: after the assassination. And you see.
• 1:48:29
  Speaker 1: Steam pipe at the bottom of the picture.
• 1:48:32
  Speaker 2: Right, So if you're looking at this, you're looking directly
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: towards the school book depository. Behind that big tree is
• 1:48:39
  Speaker 2: the school book depository. To here right would be the
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 2: triple overpass. And we're looking down the fence line right, and.
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 1: Where the fence meets is that corner.
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: Right, and the fence does continue to the left. You know,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: it kind of creates the uh, you know, there's two points.
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 2: There's two fence lines that meet there in the corner
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 2: right in the parking lot. And this is the steam
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: pipe that you had to climb over to get to
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 2: the Triple overpas. And you know, I did find this,
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't very clearly show that the DPD cop
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: running to that corner. I've seen clearer images. There is
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: a cop way down in the corner, but it hasn't
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: climbed up on the concrete yet. Right, So, and this
• 1:49:31
  Speaker 2: is a split image. I thought this was interesting. So
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 2: you see the image on the left and then on
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: the right is a close up.
• 1:49:41
  Speaker 1: Is that dark complex man putting the radio in his
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: back pocket?
• 1:49:45
  Speaker 3: Uh?
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: Possibly? Possibly? I mean this is pre the newman's hitting
• 1:49:52
  Speaker 2: the ground, right, wow?
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 1: And yeah, yeah, so you can see them a pole
• 1:50:01
  Speaker 1: on the right.
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: Right, This is before dark complexed man has sat down
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: he's still on the street right where he was standing
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: with his fist raised. The Newmans have not hit the
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: ground yet. This is like right after the shots. You
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: see the motherfucker running up the stairs there, right up
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: the grass. You know, as soon as the child's rang
• 1:50:22
  Speaker 2: out of them, the guys there were three guys on
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: them stairs, they turned around and started running up there.
• 1:50:27
  Speaker 2: Now what's interesting is on the right side of this
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: image is they zoomed in shot of the corner of
• 1:50:34
  Speaker 2: the concrete abutment coming from like where the pruiter was standing,
• 1:50:40
  Speaker 2: you know, part of the monument that that white concrete wall,
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 2: And there's an area in between the picket fence and
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 2: the and the white concrete wall where the stairs uh
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 2: lead up you know, from the street up the grass,
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 2: you know, right where Emmitt Hudson and his buddies were
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 2: standing and where this guy is running up. Now from
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: the Gordon Arnold perspective, the zoomed in an image and
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 2: I didn't have this at the time we did the
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: Gordon Arnold show. What appear two You could kind of
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 2: see a raised hand to a face with you know,
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 2: indicating possibly somebody holding a camera, and this guy is
• 1:51:28
  Speaker 2: kind of where Gordon Arnold would have been right. So
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: I just thought that that was interesting that they pulled
• 1:51:38
  Speaker 2: this image on the right and zoomed in from the
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: image on the left, which is almost right after the shots.
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: But you remember Gordon Arnold said that he hit the
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: ground immediately, so maybe he got back up pretty soon
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 2: after the shots. I don't know, but I find it
• 1:51:57
  Speaker 2: interesting the image here. Yeah, you see all the people
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 2: running following the cop down to the corner of the
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 2: triple overpass and the fence line. And then that photo
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 2: that I was talking about that I couldn't find of
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: the of the guy standing up there would be taken
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: after that with all the people around him. But you
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 2: see all the people running in that direction. You see
• 1:52:23
  Speaker 2: dark complexed man looking in that direction. Yeah, no puff
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: of smoke to speak of in this picture, but it's
• 1:52:34
  Speaker 2: an interesting image. But maybe maybe Joe, that puff of
• 1:52:38
  Speaker 2: smoke that everybody said they saw there was this guy
• 1:52:42
  Speaker 2: ideally Plaza to that day just saying it, just saying
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: m hmm, and folks, we solved it, said, we just
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 2: solved the mystery.
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:52:58
  Speaker 13: Uh.
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: Before we give her a final thoughts, I have a
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: couple of starred comments. D w who recently became a
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: Scoop spook during this episode. I've always thought Hoffman was credible.
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: Me too, Sir. I thought I believe he was dismissed
• 1:53:13
  Speaker 1: as a witness by the DPD because of his disabilities.
• 1:53:17
  Speaker 1: And you know what, I made a comment to Rob
• 1:53:21
  Speaker 1: Offline when he told me this topic. I was like, Yeah,
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: I didn't Hoffman go to DPD headquarters and say he waited,
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: but there was no translator, So that's why he didn't
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 1: have a day of Affidavid. Not sure that's true. Not
• 1:53:39
  Speaker 1: sure that's true, Sally said, I saw when I was
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: eight in nineteen eighty eight. She's talking about men who
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: killed Kennedy, and that's how we got into the JFKs
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: fastination as well. Me too, mister Hoffman telling the truth.
• 1:53:56
  Speaker 1: Timothy Ryan thinks Rick Franz says looks too far away
• 1:54:06
  Speaker 1: talking about his position in seven's freeway to observe what
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: he did.
• 1:54:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, sometimes you're your other senses make up
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 2: for the ones you're lacking. But it was pretty damn
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: far away. And I don't know exactly how far. Yeah,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 2: I don't know if they ever measured it. I'm sure
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: somebody did but it was it was a lot.
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Timothy Ryan says, how far away one hundred and
• 1:54:37
  Speaker 1: fifty two hundred yards two hundred yards would be two
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 1: football fields?
• 1:54:42
  Speaker 2: Significant amount to see details? Yeah like that?
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: Right, Only two weapons I could think of could dissemble
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: that quickly. They're talking about the the claim that the
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: railroad worker dissembled it, find the electric box and then
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: put it in the bag, right. Uh, And that would
• 1:55:06
  Speaker 1: be a sten gun and an AR seven zero point
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: two two three survival rifle. Don't have enough knowledge to
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: comment on that. And yes, Hoffman did say said as
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: we displayed it that the FBI offered him money cash
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: to keep quiet, which again I find hard to believe.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: Didn't centered or Yardborough say he saw smoke or smelled smoke.
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 1: I believe he said he saw someone hit the ground
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 1: as we went over in the Garden Gordon Arnold episode.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: He might have said he smelled smoke or spelled gunpowder.
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think yeah, I think he did.
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 2: Him or his wife, one of the two. I think
• 1:55:57
  Speaker 2: he spelled.
• 1:55:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good, good, good call Jack, because that's interesting because
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: of course, if he's you know, a few cars back
• 1:56:08
  Speaker 1: and whatever the wind is blowing. He would have smelled
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 1: at it if there was a shot from the knowle.
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 1: I really don't think Kaufman is making this up, bro,
• 1:56:18
  Speaker 1: And I'm not saying he is.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying maybe he got maybe he got some
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 2: details wrong.
• 1:56:25
  Speaker 1: Not everything lines up. Yes, and yeah, and I believe
• 1:56:32
  Speaker 1: there was a shot for the noll like so.
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 2: But here I believe the FBI may have this dismissed
• 1:56:46
  Speaker 2: his story. I don't think they offered him five hundred
• 1:56:49
  Speaker 2: dollars to shut up about it. They were probably very
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 2: dismissive of his story because it just simply does not
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 2: remotely matched the narrative at all that they were trying
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: to put forth.
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: Right, I agree, Cammy, that pipe steam would have to
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: have event on it to emits steam.
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm sure there were pressure relief valves somewhere
• 1:57:20
  Speaker 2: along that steam pipe at some points where I just
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: don't know where they would have been located. Whether it
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: would have been on the pipe itself or from an
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: event below ground, I don't know.
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: And the rail road workers would have known the difference
• 1:57:38
  Speaker 1: between that. Yeah, right, as we discussed. And two yes,
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: I just yes.
• 1:57:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you Gary Peters, thanks for being you well You're welcome.
• 1:57:55
  Speaker 2: We are us and thanks you for being you and
• 1:57:57
  Speaker 2: thank you for the super chat. Man is greatly Yes,
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: you rock definitely.
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: Gary Peters, Yeah, thank you, sir, I really appreciate it.
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: And last one, Yeah, but uh but the puff uff
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: smoke photo from Sally the Newmans are on the ground,
• 1:58:16
  Speaker 1: isn't the timing off?
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: I may have to pull that up again, and let's
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 2: look real quick.
• 1:58:23
  Speaker 1: Let's do it quickly.
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 2: Let me find that picture again and upload it in here.
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: Here we go. No, they're not. They are on the sidewalk.
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: You see little kid, Oh, the little kid right there
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: on like right on the edge of the street.
• 1:58:43
  Speaker 2: Yep, that's the Newmans. They are not on the ground yet.
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: Huh. And they were on the they were on the
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: ground for a couple a minute or two.
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 2: They were on the ground for ten minutes after the shots.
• 1:58:59
  Speaker 2: That's five and it's after the shots they were on
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 2: the ground ten minutes after that. It seems like. But yeah,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 2: you know, to wrap this up, Joe with the Ed
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 2: Hoffman story, you know, I just don't know how much
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: of it to believe. Like you said, I believe there's
• 1:59:18
  Speaker 2: a kernel of truth in here somewhere. What that exactly
• 1:59:23
  Speaker 2: is I don't know. And again we have heard stories
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 2: of other seemingly credible people who have tried to insert
• 1:59:34
  Speaker 2: their story into the narrative or a story concerning them
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: into the narrative. I mean, look no further than Jene Hill,
• 1:59:44
  Speaker 2: Julia Mercer. You know, they all have these stories that
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: nobody else say they saw, that have somehow changed over
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: time that weren't in their initial DPD or Sheriff's office
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: after David that these details have added over time. Now,
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: if we had a sheriff's reporter or a DPD report
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 2: from Ed Hoffman on the day of the assassination, this
• 2:00:13
  Speaker 2: might be a different story.
• 2:00:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it would make me feel better.
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 2: But to wait three years because your daddy when you're
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: twenty seven tells you to keep your mouth shut because
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: somebody's gonna shoot you, and you say, okay, daddy, and
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: you don't say anything for three years.
• 2:00:34
  Speaker 1: One no witnesses were being shot yet.
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: So you wait until after the warrant commission is done,
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: after Oswald is dead, after they seemingly put this thing
• 2:00:43
  Speaker 2: to bed, and three years later, because of your sleepless
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: nights and nightmares, you decide to go to the FBI
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: to tell your story, and they dismiss you and offer
• 2:00:52
  Speaker 2: you money and tell you to shut up, and you
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: get out, and then you know, when interest is renewed.
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: In this case, all of a sudden, he comes out
• 2:01:00
  Speaker 2: of the woodwork again and again. I don't think it
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 2: was for money or fame or anything like that. I
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: think it was more attention thing. Yeah uh and and
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 2: I don't know that one hundred percent, but that's just
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: my impression, you know, Like with Judish Baker, I think
• 2:01:17
  Speaker 2: it's a mentally ill thing with her and attention and money.
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 2: But of course everybody's different. Everybody has different intentions or
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 2: reasons for doing things that they do. People are strange.
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: As the door said, yes.
• 2:01:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, great song. Yeah, And like Tim Ryan says, who
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: the fuck knows? And yeah, and and just because you
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: know the quote book review ed, Hoffman's definitely leans on
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: the side of conspiracy. But just because he leans on
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: the side of conspiracy and from what I believe was
• 2:01:57
  Speaker 1: a shop from behind the grassy knole the pick of fence,
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily mean I have to believe him or that
• 2:02:05
  Speaker 1: I don't believe that there was a shot.
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 1: I wasn't there. We weren't there. It's a strange story
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: that came out after it changed offering money from the FBI,
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: which I've never heard before. I don't know the reason
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: or anything motivations of why he came out then or
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: later or later in life, I don't know. But we
• 2:02:39
  Speaker 1: let the audience think and decide for themselves on this show,
• 2:02:44
  Speaker 1: and we try to We.
• 2:02:47
  Speaker 2: Give you all sides and lets you try to figure
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: it out because we're in the same boat. I don't
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: know where to land on this guy. I mean, James says,
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: you know, it's either the one thing, which is the
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 2: ultimate truth, like this guy's legit and he's telling the truth,
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: or it's the other, which means he's lying. It's one
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 2: or the other. He's either misrepresenting or misremembering some you know,
• 2:03:12
  Speaker 2: facts what he saw, or he's misinterpreting what he saw,
• 2:03:17
  Speaker 2: or you know, it's it's hard to say. I don't think.
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think ed Hoffman was a malicious liar, if
• 2:03:26
  Speaker 2: that makes sense. Joe, Yes, I don't think he was
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: telling this story to intentionally mislead other people or anything
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: But I think he was probably there parked on the
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: side of this the freeway and saw some stuff, but
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't sure what was going on.
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he thought he saw these things, and that's what
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: his brain interpreted. You know, the rest of the story
• 2:03:59
  Speaker 2: is up for debate, right, you know, the whole FBI saying,
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: the whole reason he didn't say anything intentionally.
• 2:04:07
  Speaker 1: You could have gone to the DPD, even not the
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 1: day of. You could have gotten a translator sometime before
• 2:04:16
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty seven to express your concerns before that optoconum
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: and say what's up. But said tended to trust Hoffman,
• 2:04:26
  Speaker 1: and I don't not trust him. I'm just saying there
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: are some things in his story though.
• 2:04:31
  Speaker 2: There are problems there.
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: There are problematic to us.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: And with any author, even Walt Brown or Jim D.
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 2: Eugeniu or whatever other esteemed author you're going to throw
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 2: up there. They get things wrong, They have wrong opinions,
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 2: they have wrong basic instincts.
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 1: You can't get everything right in this game, man, We
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 1: certainly don't.
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 2: I mean, this case would have been solved many, many,
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: many years ago if if only somebody had gotten it
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 2: right and was able to convince everybody that they did
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: get it right. But Sadley Walt Brown has not, the
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: Eugenie is not, Mark Lane is not, and I can
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: send here the list thousands of authors who have not
• 2:05:17
  Speaker 2: yet satisfied everybody on the conspiracy side of things as
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: to what conspiracy we can all buy into and believe
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 2: with absolute one proof.
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: Right, But definitely props to Mark Lane for forgetting these
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 1: interviews in nineteen sixty six of these railroad workers. Definitely
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: helpful and kind of displays how some.
• 2:05:48
  Speaker 2: Of them were yeah tiny. Maybe maybe they were trying
• 2:05:51
  Speaker 2: to give him five hundred dollars for his hot tip,
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: for his hot crime tip, and he misinterpreted it as
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: them trying to pay him off to shut up. Thing
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: is possible, but maybe not that right, but that made
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: me lol say yes, thank you.
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: So yeah man, that is all I have. I know
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 1: we said. I said, let's try to keep this to
• 2:06:16
  Speaker 1: an hour and a half because I have a hockey
• 2:06:18
  Speaker 1: game in thirty four minutes and I will be late
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: for it being it's thirty minutes away. But podcast comes first.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: I love you all. I appreciate everyone joining us for
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: this show. I hope you are less confused than you
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: were at the beginning about Ed Hoffman, but probably you're not.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like us, we're more confused.
• 2:06:44
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, I will say my percentage of confidence of
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: him went down a little during the process of my
• 2:06:57
  Speaker 1: research this week. Not saying he's wrong, just saying the
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: confidence level went down. I'm not going to put a
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: percentage on it.
• 2:07:05
  Speaker 2: Yep. All right, We're gonna let Joe get to his
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 2: hockey game. We're gonna call you know it.
• 2:07:10
  Speaker 14: Yeah, folks, if you want the hottest folks to be
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 14: hot saut looking at this dript, use our code dumb
• 2:07:19
  Speaker 14: in to save twenty percent off of your entire order.
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 14: And of course when you're eating the hottest you need
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 14: to be drinking the coldest.
• 2:07:28
  Speaker 2: Making the description of your coldest.
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 15: Cup enough could the ceres freaking hours great in this I.
• 2:07:40
  Speaker 8: Used against him in this strange case.
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 2: Good night, Thanks for joining us.
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 15: It's been a banger always is You folks make it awesome.
• 2:07:51
  Speaker 15: Thanks you for the interaction of the night. Fantabulous. If
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 15: you like this videos, like button and share this bit. Yeah,
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 15: we like seven people away from being twenty three subscribers.
• 2:08:03
  Speaker 1: Joe, I know yes, Please in the next week we
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 1: will we will thank.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 2: You everyone subscribe.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, if not, Ruby is going to come and at
• 2:08:15
  Speaker 1: tack you.
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: She will come and bite your leg off.
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: She is very intimidating as she.
• 2:08:21
  Speaker 2: Will make a very small hole in your leg and
• 2:08:26
  Speaker 2: then lick you.
• 2:08:32
  Speaker 1: Haven't been weekend.
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: See it's a book review before next week. Peace, peace guys,