Latest / No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women / Breaking Her Silence: A Cover-Up, the Truth, and Taking Power Back

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Breaking Her Silence: A Cover-Up, the Truth, and Taking Power Back · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

0:05
Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violence.
0:07
Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
0:13
Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
0:20
Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
0:29
Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature and flourish.
0:34
Mary: Let's dive in.
0:35
Mary: Hey, violets, welcome to the show.
0:41
Mary: I'm going to be candid for a second.
0:44
Mary: As a therapist, creating a podcast even five years ago would have seemed unthinkable to me.
0:48
Mary: I think almost anyone hosting or guesting on a podcast has moments of uncertainty or even anxiety about how much of their own life to share.
0:57
Mary: Perhaps that's why celebrity podcasts seem to pop up constantly.
1:01
Mary: For celebrities, sharing themselves has always been part of their working experience.
1:06
Mary: For regular people, especially those of my generation who were raised in the pre-social media era, it can be more than a bit intimidating.
1:15
Mary: For a therapist, however, it has literally been trained out of me to share about myself, so I had a few extra layers to navigate.
1:25
Mary: I've had colleagues who didn't even have family pictures in their offices and who wouldn't have an office in their home in a million years because privacy was so important.
1:34
Mary: When I was trained 35 years ago, the model was very much to share virtually nothing about yourself with clients.
1:41
Mary: It was definitely not like the show Shrinking, in which Jimmy, played by Jason Segel, breaks pretty much every ethical barrier imaginable.
1:51
Mary: But having said that, times have changed quite a bit.
1:53
Mary: I have a few theories as to why, but that's a discussion for another day.
1:57
Mary: Overall, I think therapy is more effective when we allow our clients to know a bit about us, but I guarantee there are some therapists out there who would vehemently disagree.
2:08
Mary: At the same time, sharing personal details about ourselves in a podcast or a book is quite different than in the therapy relationship, and it's an important ethical situation to navigate correctly.
2:19
Mary: And then there's the coaching relationship, which has even more permeable boundaries.
2:23
Mary: My guest today, a fellow therapist, has navigated those boundaries in a big way.
2:28
Mary: Kristen Louise Duncombe is a therapist, life coach and bestselling author.
2:33
Mary: Her most recent book, object, is a true crime memoir that exposes how the US government protected a serial pedophile who abused children for more than 30 years before he was finally arrested.
2:45
Mary: Kristen specializes in complex trauma and helping women create the lives they dream of Welcome to no Shrinking Violets.
2:53
Kristin: Kristin Thank you so much for having me and I love your introduction because it really is true having to navigate that boundary question between the personal and the professional and the private, etc.
3:12
Kristin: Etc.
3:13
Kristin: Etc.
3:13
Kristin: Yeah.
3:14
Mary: Yeah.
3:16
Mary: Yeah, and you know it's interesting before we jump in because I knew you know you could relate to this.
3:21
Mary: I also do a weekly newsletter and I've had, I've gotten clients from that and that's more.
3:26
Mary: It's not really I don't talk a lot about personal stuff, but a little bit, and I think it's interesting because we've trained with this idea of you're a blank slate, they shouldn't know anything, and that really sets you up as, I think, a expert that's too separated.
3:43
Mary: Think an expert that's too separated.
3:49
Mary: So people, especially now with social media, I think they need to know some things you know and then that helps them feel like okay, I think I would resonate with that person.
3:55
Kristin: Yes, absolutely.
3:57
Mary: So I know we're going to eventually talk about your book and I can't wait.
4:00
Mary: Yes, but from what I have pieced together on your website and on the profile that I read, you've had quite an adventurous life like both challenging in challenging ways and like pretty cool ways.
4:12
Mary: So can you tell us a little bit of your story up until now and how that kind of informs what you're doing?
4:21
Kristin: Yes, absolutely so.
4:24
Kristin: Well, I just had my 56th birthday.
4:26
Kristin: My birthday is August 6th, so I've just finished celebrating.
4:30
Kristin: And in my 56 years, I think the reason you're referring to it as adventurous this is usually what people hone in on it's the fact that I've lived all over the world in many different countries, and that is because when I was a kid, my father was a foreign service officer, so I was born in Washington DC, but I grew up in West Africa, in Southeast Asia.
4:58
Kristin: We lived in a whole bunch of different countries, in fact I can just list them.
5:01
Kristin: We moved to the Ivory Coast when I was just short of my 10th birthday, lived there for four years.
5:07
Kristin: Then we moved to Cairo, egypt, then to New Delhi, india, then to Jakarta, indonesia, and then I moved to the States for college.
5:16
Kristin: I went to college in Massachusetts.
5:18
Kristin: After college I worked in Seattle for a few years.
5:23
Kristin: Meanwhile my mom and dad were back in West Africa, in Nigeria, and then I went to graduate school in New Orleans, louisiana.
5:33
Kristin: And while I was in New Orleans in fact I had been there for all of a day or two I met a guy.
5:43
Kristin: A day or two I met a guy.
5:56
Kristin: He is an Argentinian medical, humanitarian, research scientist and fell madly in love.
5:58
Kristin: And at that time he had a career with Doctors Without Borders and was slated to go back on mission in East Africa.
6:07
Kristin: And so, as someone who had already spent my life moving around, I didn't hesitate when he's like do you want to come with me?
6:14
Kristin: And I'm like yep, absolutely so.
6:17
Kristin: Next thing I know I'm getting married and going off to Nairobi, kenya, with this man, and we lived together in East Africa for five years.
6:26
Kristin: We lived in Nairobi for two years and in Kampala, uganda Well, two and a half in Nairobi, two and a half in Kampala, uganda and then moved to Paris, where I currently live.
6:39
Kristin: But we lived in Paris for 10 years.
6:41
Kristin: Then we moved down south to Lyon, france, then from Lyon we moved to Geneva and then I moved back to Paris two years ago.
6:51
Kristin: So that has been sort of my complicated geographic trajectory.
6:57
Kristin: Wow, and along the way I have built my career as a therapist and I've had my two children.
7:05
Kristin: I have built my career as a therapist and I've had my two children.
7:07
Kristin: I have two children.
7:08
Kristin: My daughter is 26.
7:10
Kristin: She was born in Nairobi.
7:11
Kristin: My son is 20.
7:13
Kristin: He was born in Paris.
7:14
Kristin: As you know, I have two geriatric cats Because, for the listeners, we were supposed to have done this podcast a couple of months ago, but one of my cats got sick and Mary very kindly agreed to reschedule because I was taking care of Olive, her name is Olive.
7:32
Kristin: Yes, olive, yes, and so let's see now.
7:37
Kristin: And now the yowling is starting.
7:38
Kristin: She heard her name.
7:39
Kristin: I hope that that doesn't get picked up by the mic.
7:42
Kristin: I hope that that doesn't get picked up by the mic.
7:47
Kristin: Yes, so in fact, now I've started rambling about my trajectory and with Olive's yowling I think I've derailed my own thought process.
7:54
Kristin: What was I trying to tell you?
7:57
Mary: Okay.
7:57
Mary: Well, let's hit the pause button on where this is going, because I'm having worked in education all my life.
8:05
Mary: I've seen a lot of students come and go.
8:07
Mary: I worked at Penn State for eight years a lot of international students, people coming from far away, when you were growing up in that life and I know there's a dark side to what happened as part of that, but let's park that to the side for a second.
8:20
Mary: Growing up and traveling like that as a kid did you like it?
8:26
Mary: Did you like?
8:27
Mary: What was that like for you?
8:30
Kristin: Well, you know it's so interesting because that is a question that often gets asked of kids that are growing up like that.
8:41
Kristin: But when you ask a kid, whose life, is that what it's like?
8:47
Kristin: I mean like that, that's, that's the water that they swim in.
8:52
Kristin: So they don't know anything different.
8:55
Kristin: So I did enjoy my childhood.
8:59
Kristin: I did, you know, like any kid that has to move around frequently.
9:04
Kristin: There was some hardship there.
9:06
Kristin: You know it's hard to be new, it's hard to leave a place and friends that you're attached to, and especially that was before the age of social media.
9:15
Kristin: So it's not like people were able to keep in touch the way people are nowadays.
9:20
Kristin: But no, while I was living it it was just normal life, you know.
9:26
Kristin: You especially, you know I went to international school.
9:30
Kristin: So I was in school with kids from all over the world also some American kids, but kids from from every place that were all living that same way.
9:41
Kristin: You know there's a term which you may or may not be familiar with.
9:44
Kristin: For people like us, it's third culture kids.
9:49
Kristin: Do you know that expression?
9:51
Kristin: Third culture kids?
9:52
Kristin: So third culture kids, or TCKs as the abbreviation is, is actually a super useful reference.
9:59
Kristin: Third culture kid refers to people like myself or and then.
10:06
Kristin: I'll transpose that same model to my kids, who are also third culture kids, but whose background is somehow different than mine.
10:13
Kristin: So both of my parents were Americans, are American citizens, but because we grew up overseas, what makes me a third culture kid is the first culture is the culture of the family.
10:27
Kristin: The second culture is the culture or cultures of the countries that you live in.
10:35
Kristin: And the third culture is the common sub-community, the culture of the sub-community of fellow international expats that you circulate with, that have that same type of life, ie parents from one place moving from country to country.
10:58
Kristin: And then the third culture being the place where we meet, culture being the place where we meet.
11:05
Kristin: So my children, for example I think I mentioned this to you before we started recording, or was were we already?
11:11
Kristin: Yeah, we were already recording.
11:14
Kristin: So my husband is Argentinian, my, my, the father of my children is Argentinian.
11:20
Kristin: So my children have an American mom, an Argentinian dad.
11:24
Kristin: So they've already got two cultures at home.
11:28
Kristin: They my daughter, was born in Nairobi, my son was born in Paris, and then they grew up between, you know, east Africa, france and Switzerland, and they grew up with other kids that circulate in that international community.
11:47
Kristin: So, though, culturally.
11:50
Kristin: My kids and I have come from a different background because I'm from a monocultural family of origin and they're from a bicultural family of origin.
12:00
Kristin: We are both third culture kids and it's really, really interesting.
12:05
Kristin: You'll appreciate this as a therapist, because some of the difficulties we used to have in our family life with my now ex-husband is is that we had a big cultural difference.
12:20
Kristin: He is monocultural Argentinian, he grew up in Argentina, he lived there until he was 26 years old and where, as an adult, he has become a very international person because he's had a very interesting and rich international career.
12:39
Kristin: He is very firmly rooted in his Argentinian roots and the reason I'm mentioning that you know if he was here he would disagree.
12:51
Kristin: I often felt an absence of empathy for some of the issues that come along with the third culture experience.
13:00
Kristin: For example, you know you asked if I enjoyed my childhood.
13:04
Kristin: Well, I very much did, but when I was a grown up trying to establish my own adult life, which what quickly became an evident problem was my rootlessness.
13:18
Kristin: I didn't have a home base and I needed one.
13:23
Kristin: You know that might not be the same for everyone, but for me it was something I needed.
13:27
Kristin: I needed roots and the reason I'm in Paris today is because that was one of the original battles I had in my marriage my now defunct marriage, if I can call it that, because we're no longer together, but we are still friends.
13:44
Kristin: But this is a great example.
13:46
Kristin: You know, he and I would say to him you have your past, you still have access to it.
13:54
Kristin: You're from a small city in Argentina.
13:57
Kristin: Your entire family still lives there, within a one kilometer radius.
14:03
Kristin: We go back every year and everything that you came from is consolidated there.
14:11
Kristin: And so for you, because you know, he wanted to keep traveling the world, here there, changing every year, every two years.
14:21
Kristin: And early on in our marriage I realized this is not what I want.
14:26
Kristin: I don't want to keep living like this.
14:29
Kristin: And he couldn't understand what my problem was because he would say you, of all people, you're so international.
14:41
Kristin: You spent your whole life moving around and that's what you know.
14:46
Kristin: I thought I was getting from you someone that can adapt and I'm like, yeah, but don't confuse the things.
14:53
Kristin: I can adapt, I just don't want to.
14:56
Kristin: I want a home base.
15:00
Mary: Yeah, that's an important distinction.
15:02
Kristin: Yes, and that is how we ended up having our little home in Paris, the one that I'm in right now, because you know, I had to fight tooth and nail for us to establish a home base someplace.
15:16
Kristin: Yeah, yeah.
15:18
Mary: Yeah Well, I don't know a lot about.
15:21
Mary: I mean, you wrote three books, right?
15:23
Kristin: Yes, I've written three books, yes.
15:26
Mary: And it feels like and you can correct me if I'm wrong but they sort of grew out of your processing of things.
15:34
Kristin: Yes, absolutely yeah.
15:35
Kristin: So just for some more terminology.
15:39
Kristin: So I was talking about being a third culture kid, being a third culture kid.
15:49
Kristin: So my first book is called Trailing, and trailing is a tongue in cheek term for the trailing spouse.
15:54
Kristin: That's kind of considered not like a very politically correct way to say it any longer.
16:00
Kristin: Now people like to say accompanying spouse, but I say trailing spouse because, as I said, it's tongue in cheek, plus that's the terminology I grew up with.
16:09
Kristin: My mom was a trailing spouse.
16:11
Kristin: This trailing spouse is the one who follows the career spouse and though, you know, in 2025, especially as careers more careers are remote, I think it's easier now for married couples to be able to move off someplace and both people be able to keep their professional identity and existence alive.
16:36
Kristin: But you know, even 30 years ago, when I got married, that decision that I made to follow my Doctors Without Borders husband meant that I had to give up my plans, and my plans were to get my degree in clinical social work and in public health, and I did get my degrees, but I wanted to set up a practice in the United States and, because I had traveled so much, I wanted to just sort of like, have an easy life and you know, have my practice, you know you see things a certain way.
17:15
Kristin: I didn't have it all mapped out, but what I didn't anticipate was getting married instead and trailing this guy off to the front lines of disaster and disease.
17:27
Kristin: His career and I say it with honest admiration super admirable work, extremely interesting work.
17:37
Kristin: I mean he was the medical coordinator for the Doctors Without Borders France operation based in Nairobi, but they were working in Sudan and Somalia, all over Kenya.
17:51
Kristin: There was famines, there was epidemics, there was, you know, there was so many different tragedies happening, one after the other, and so I mean he was never there.
18:06
Kristin: We landed in Nairobi and he hit the ground running.
18:11
Kristin: He was so busy, we lived with the team, they were all super busy and I was there empty handed.
18:20
Kristin: I was the trailing spouse with no idea how to, as I write about in my book, how to start a life out of thin air.
18:29
Kristin: Yeah, as an MSF spouse was so different from my life as an embassy brat kid.
18:50
Kristin: I mean, when you move around with the embassy there's lots of creature comforts.
18:55
Kristin: When I moved around as a spouse with Doctors Without Borders, there was no comforts and it was a major adjustment.
19:06
Kristin: And it's not because I'm just such a prima donna that I needed to, you know, have someone fanning and massaging me.
19:13
Kristin: But like I didn't have access to transport, I didn't have a telephone and it was difficult to figure out how to get my life going without logistical support.
19:27
Mary: Yeah, yeah, wow.
19:29
Mary: So then your second book.
19:32
Mary: What journey did that sort of detail for you?
19:38
Kristin: Well, my second book is called Five Flights Up, and Five Flights Up actually refers to the five literal flights up the 98 stairs of the apartment that I very brattly insisted that we move into when my husband forced me quote unquote to become a trailing spouse again.
20:07
Kristin: So I'll have to backtrack to the first book, so what?
20:11
Kristin: And taking it all back to not being a shrinking violet, those years in East Africa were very, very difficult.
20:20
Kristin: It was super difficult to be a trailing spouse.
20:22
Kristin: We were violently carjacked and I was, as a result, extremely traumatized.
20:29
Kristin: We got kidnapped by armed gunmen and I did not recover well from that.
20:34
Kristin: We had lots and lots of problems.
20:37
Kristin: Book trailing ends with the discovery that my husband is having an affair with his colleague.
20:47
Kristin: These are all true facts and I packed up my daughter, who was two years old, and I left.
20:56
Kristin: I was no longer a shrinking violet, literally.
20:57
Kristin: I basically, and I took my duffel, I got my daughter in one arm, a duffel bag in the other, and I left our life in Uganda overnight and then set up my life here in Paris.
21:13
Kristin: After about six months we did get back together and went on to have, you know, almost six years later, our second child.
21:22
Kristin: But the second book has to do with the fact that after 10 happy years in Paris you know, paris was the place that I told you I fought to have a home base he was offered a job in Lyon, france, that he really wanted to take, and he just assumed that of course I would think it was great and that we would all go off together.
21:54
Kristin: And I was like forget it.
21:58
Kristin: After what happened the last time, you know, I gave up my life for you and then I almost lost my life in the carjacking and I had to work so hard to get on my feet professionally and I've always been a career minded person.
22:16
Kristin: And now here I am in Paris.
22:18
Kristin: I have a great professional existence.
22:22
Kristin: I was the counselor.
22:23
Kristin: You were mentioning that.
22:24
Kristin: You were at Penn State, was it so?
22:27
Kristin: I was the counselor at the American University of Paris.
22:30
Kristin: I had a great private practice.
22:32
Kristin: I was very, very happy.
22:33
Kristin: My kids, you know just everything.
22:36
Kristin: I had my whole great little life.
22:38
Kristin: And then he wanted me to uproot again and follow him on his new job.
22:43
Kristin: And so this time and this is what the book is about since I was no longer a shrinking violet, I said no, I said I'm not going.
22:53
Kristin: I'm sorry.
22:54
Kristin: You know it's a two hour train, high speed trains in France and in Europe.
23:00
Kristin: I said it's a two hour train.
23:02
Kristin: We can have a commuter marriage model.
23:05
Kristin: Many people do it.
23:07
Kristin: We can do it too, because I am not giving up my little existence here in Paris.
23:13
Kristin: I'm happy, I'm settled, and that's it.
23:15
Kristin: So for 18 months he was in Lyon and I stayed in Paris with the kids.
23:22
Kristin: I mean, it was great.
23:25
Kristin: And so part of the book is about how I loved that new marriage model.
23:29
Kristin: I in fact found it injected good, new energy into our relationship.
23:34
Kristin: But he didn't like it, and so after a while he said well, if you're not going to move, I'm going to move back to Paris.
23:42
Kristin: And that is what lit the fire under my feet, because when he left his job in Paris for this other job in Lyon, it was for a much better salary, much better conditions, and so I was like, okay, I'll move, and so.
23:59
Kristin: But I insisted, since you're forcing me to do this, I get to choose the apartment.
24:05
Kristin: And I chose an apartment that turned out to be very, very impractical.
24:09
Kristin: I fell in love with it because it was the old world, beautiful, but it was five flights up.
24:14
Kristin: And those five flights became a metaphor for and this is what the book is about trusting again, like really trusting again after infidelity.
24:25
Kristin: Because I didn't trust him.
24:27
Kristin: I mean, I forgave him and I took him back for the sake of having our couple's life and our family life.
24:36
Kristin: But when push came to shove and he wanted me to move again, that's when the trust issues really reared their head and I was like what am I doing to myself Again, giving up all of my stability for someone who's already proven to me that he cheats on me, and very carelessly.
24:55
Kristin: You know he had a very public affair, so it was about that.
25:02
Kristin: That was part of the five flights up.
25:05
Kristin: But the five flights up the metaphor is also about what it means to raise foreign children in France.
25:25
Kristin: Maybe know French culture, french culture which is, you know, very famous.
25:27
Kristin: Everyone knows something about French culture and the food, and France is a wonderful place to live.
25:30
Kristin: I am not saying any of this in a complaining way, because every day I'm grateful that I get to live in France, but it is a very particular culture.
25:38
Kristin: The French are very, very judgy and judgmental and there is very pedantic.
25:45
Kristin: There is the French way that you do things and anything that deviates from that is suspect.
25:50
Kristin: And so, being an American mom raising kids, you know who have the American mom and the Argentinian dad.
26:02
Kristin: We did so many things that were often treated with suspicion, like, just to give one little example, I mean when I say suspicion it's not nothing with life or death implications, but imagine you throw your kid's birthday party and you know the kids pile in and you know you prepare things the way you would have thought a kid's birthday party should go, based on your own cultural references.
26:27
Kristin: And then you've got all these little French kids there complaining about frosting I don't eat frosting.
26:36
Kristin: Or you know things like that.
26:38
Kristin: Or like, like you know, just I mean so many like my daughter, she's, I mean.
26:41
Kristin: And the kids, you know things like that.
26:42
Kristin: Or like you know, just I mean so many like my daughter, she's, I mean.
26:44
Kristin: And the kids, you know, depending on their age, they go through different reactions to how their parents present.
26:53
Kristin: But there would be certain moments in time when my daughter we'd be walking to school and she'd say Mom, stop shouting bonjour to everyone, don't you see the French moms don't act like that.
27:04
Kristin: Because I'd be walking down there going bonjour, ça va, oui, bonjour.
27:08
Kristin: You know just like, hey, how you doing, and you know, the truth is it was so well received.
27:15
Kristin: I've got loads of French friends and you know I am their American friend because we are very different, and so it wasn't actually a problem.
27:24
Kristin: But for my daughter, who at that time was nine, it was extremely embarrassing, you know.
27:29
Kristin: So things like that.
27:30
Kristin: So the book is also about about that.
27:33
Kristin: It's about learning to trust after infidelity.
27:35
Kristin: It's about raising international kids Raising international kids in France, a very particular place and it's also about expanding one's idea of what makes for solid personal identity.
27:56
Kristin: Yeah, it's that no shrinking violet thing.
27:58
Kristin: It's that no shrinking violet thing.
27:59
Kristin: It's like, okay, how can I feel good about my life in spite of these areas of insecurity and in spite of, yeah, having to make some sacrifices again professionally?
28:16
Mary: Yeah, yeah, so really it seems like those two books you're sort of.
28:21
Mary: It's almost like as maybe you journaled, like you started.
28:24
Mary: It sort of came out of this idea of documenting and then how can I pull this together into this?
28:31
Mary: Really, they sound like amazing memoirs.
28:35
Kristin: Yes, they are memoirs and you want to know.
28:37
Kristin: It's really interesting to loop back to what we started with with your introduction.
28:42
Kristin: So, in all honesty, they didn't start out as journals only because, even though journaling I do think is a great thing, I've never been a journaler, even though I'm a writer, I'm just not a journaler.
28:56
Kristin: My books did not stem from journaling, but what they did stem from was the desire to share the universal, because I find, in terms of that thing that you started out with about you know, when you're a therapist and you're supposed to have a blank slate and or at least that's what they teach you in graduate school that never, ever worked for me.
29:24
Kristin: I've seen therapists where they're like you can know nothing about me and it just doesn't work for me.
29:31
Kristin: I do want to know who I'm talking to and of course, I don't ever want to be the therapist or be in therapy with a therapist who's going to monopolize about their own life.
29:44
Kristin: But I don't have any problem saying, yeah, in my experience such and such thing, or in my and how I really found my professional footing in when I finally landed here in Paris was by going around talking to groups about being a trailing spouse, and also about raising third culture kids.
30:09
Kristin: And you know those were such big topics that are salient in the expat community that those discussions morphed into the storytelling of what became my books.
30:30
Mary: So you mentioned, you know, the carjacking, which sounds so traumatic, but I think about trauma.
30:37
Mary: You had trauma early and it almost seems like the third book is.
30:43
Mary: You worked your way up to that right, Because this is sounds like from what I know and I want you to share with us.
30:50
Mary: Sounds like this was really exposing some things that people, at one point especially, did not want to be exposed.
31:00
Mary: You were a child experiencing.
31:02
Kristin: Yes, yes, yes, exactly, and so that that, yeah, okay, let me.
31:09
Kristin: So let me back up because it's really really fascinating.
31:11
Kristin: So my third book it's called object, object, as in feeling like an object.
31:18
Kristin: Although it's so interesting, some people thought the way they interpreted the word.
31:23
Kristin: Object is I object, like I object to the sexual objectification of children, which is true I do.
31:41
Kristin: Object in the book is not in my first two books.
31:46
Kristin: It's so much in my first two books because both of my first two books explore the question of who am I in relationship to this man, my husband, whose existence is determining what happens in my life, and I am not blaming him for that.
32:17
Kristin: Just to be clear.
32:18
Kristin: This is not about assigning blame, but to leap ahead to my third book.
32:26
Kristin: So when I was 10 years old, my family had recently moved, as I mentioned, to the Ivory Coast.
32:33
Kristin: One of the senior members of the US Embassy diplomatic staff, he was a senior member of USAID which, as you know, has recently been dismantled by Donald Trump.
32:48
Kristin: And no, I did not agree with the dismantling of USAID, but I do have some bones to pick with the USAID administration because of the story I'm about to tell you.
32:58
Kristin: One of the senior members of USAID, unbeknownst, it seems, to anyone on the ground in the Ivory Coast, was a rampant and serial pedophile.
33:14
Kristin: He was also my best friend's father.
33:20
Kristin: So, as I mentioned, you know third culture kid, I went to the International School of Abidjan.
33:28
Kristin: Abidjan at the time was the capital of the Ivory Coast, so our fathers were at the embassy, us kids went to the International School.
33:37
Kristin: I'll show you her picture because I I dedicated the book to her.
33:42
Kristin: So this, this is me.
33:44
Kristin: Can you see that?
33:46
Kristin: that's that's me and that was my best friend, rose and and I have the the family's blessing to be telling this story.
33:55
Kristin: So, and that's why the book is dedicated to her, that's why her pictures in it, because, as she says and I write about this in the book owning what her father did is is part of her healing.
34:07
Kristin: It's not taking responsibility for it, but there's no denial there, because what happened is is that, um, my path crossed with this man.
34:19
Kristin: His name was mr mul Mulcahy.
34:21
Kristin: He's dead now, but for two and a half years, through multiple sleepovers at Rose's house, family gatherings you know we would spend Thanksgiving and Christmas together because our parents were really good friends Regular weekend outings to the beach and to the pool I mean, I've spent a lot of time with that family.
34:49
Kristin: Mr Mulcahy sexually molested me and to talk a little bit about trauma and I always think that this is an interesting example you mentioned the trauma of the carjacking.
35:03
Kristin: As you know, when you get chased down the road by armed gunmen and you know they attempt to kidnap you and they beat up your husband and all of that stuff, that's what we would call acute trauma.
35:15
Kristin: But what happened to me as a child between the ages of 10 and 12 with Mr Mulcahy, this jolly, convivial, really nice guy who was very popular in the community and everyone loved him, me included, and he was always buying you know ice cream and presents and he was the fun dad.
35:41
Kristin: That is a different type of trauma.
35:44
Kristin: That is what we would call complex trauma, because the relationship I had with him and the things that he did to me messed so in such a sophisticated, insidious way with my self-image, my capacity to trust, my induction into sexual feelings before I was ready and knew what to do with them.
36:13
Kristin: It created a big developmental wound, and so it's that type of trauma that you know, as you know, that we call complex trauma.
36:26
Kristin: But then, to add insult to injury and this is the reason I wrote this book and this is what I want people to know and, by the way, tomorrow is the one-year anniversary that I released the book, and in this year since the book has come out, so many important things have happened related to what I'm about to tell you.
36:51
Kristin: So, first of all, I thought that I was the only one having this sort of icky secret, having this sort of icky secret, uncomfortable, scary relationship with Mr Mulcahy.
37:03
Kristin: However, all of a sudden and I write about this in the book the family was whisked back to Washington.
37:13
Kristin: We were told that, you know, mr Mulcahy had gotten a promotion.
37:15
Kristin: It was only after the family was gone that the parents were informed that actually there had been an allegation made by another kid in the community that he had molested her in the swimming pool.
37:31
Kristin: And it was that moment that parents all around the community, my own included, sat kids down to say this terrible rumor is going around about Mr Mulcahy.
37:42
Kristin: Isn't it awful Such a kind man?
37:46
Kristin: And one by one, kids all around the community were saying well, no, it's true, it happened to me too.
37:57
Kristin: And the community launched into the most massive community crisis you can imagine, because this was really like the community grandfather.
38:08
Kristin: He used to babysit kids.
38:11
Kristin: You know, he was this nice Catholic guy, yeah, yeah.
38:47
Kristin: And so suddenly, what everyone believed had been the reality of, you know, mr Wonderful Mr Mulcahy, it was all went up in smoke and an investigation was launched by the State Department and it was all confirmed yes, indeed, he is a child molester.
38:53
Kristin: He molested all of these children in the in the cohort from the embassy in the Ivory Coast, there were seven of us kids.
38:56
Kristin: And about six months after he was sent back to Washington and the investigation was conducted.
38:58
Kristin: Then the word came from Washington that the case was closed, he was not going to lose his job and he was not going to be prosecuted, that Mr Mulcahy's civil liberties needed to be protected because he had diplomatic immunity and at the time at least, there was no federal law against pedophilia.
39:22
Kristin: So it was as though no crime had even happened.
39:27
Kristin: And so, of course, the parents.
39:30
Kristin: You know there was another uproar, but I mean, imagine this was the early 80s.
39:35
Kristin: There was no internet, there wasn't easy long distance phone, this was all happening by cable telegram.
39:41
Kristin: But basically the state department silenced the parents who were trying to defend their children who had been victims to this man, and the state department washed their hands of it and said it's time to move on.
40:01
Kristin: Everyone shut up and get back to work.
40:03
Kristin: And that is what happened.
40:05
Kristin: Wow, yes, that is what happened.
40:10
Kristin: And then I mean, many other things happened, but just for the sake of telling you about the cover-up, so that it all blew up like that when I was 12.
40:21
Kristin: The cover-up, so that it all blew up like that when I was 12.
40:27
Kristin: When I was 22, I had just moved to Seattle, washington, and I was having a lot of mental health problems all ultimately related back to the abuse.
40:33
Kristin: You know I had developed an eating disorder.
40:35
Kristin: I had developed binge drinking disorder Just you know.
40:39
Kristin: So much of the sequelae that's pretty typical for abuse victims.
40:43
Kristin: I was like a classic textbook example of that, although of course I had no insight about that.
40:49
Kristin: It was like just stumbling in the dark after that.
40:52
Kristin: But I was having a series of mental health problems got into.
40:58
Kristin: A date rape situation ended up in counseling at a place called the Sexual Assault Center.
41:04
Kristin: And when I poured out the whole story of what had happened to me, my counselor insisted that we get in touch with the State Department and say that they had to pay for therapy.
41:16
Kristin: And surprise, surprise, all it took was filling out the paperwork, one tort claim and, next thing you know, they sent me $20,000 to pay for therapy.
41:27
Kristin: This was in 1992.
41:28
Kristin: I thought I was rich.
41:30
Kristin: I was 22 years old.
41:32
Kristin: I got this check for 20,000 bucks.
41:34
Kristin: I honestly thought that I had hit the jackpot.
41:37
Kristin: I see now how measly and inappropriate that sum is, even at the time.
41:45
Kristin: I mean, I remember my therapy sessions cost $86.
41:49
Kristin: And you know, the point is it was inadequate and I had signed on the dotted line that I would not bother them anymore.
41:58
Kristin: So it was a very naive thing that I did.
41:59
Kristin: I would not bother them anymore.
42:00
Kristin: So it was a very naive thing that I did.
42:02
Kristin: That was when I was 22.
42:04
Kristin: When I was 32, living here in Paris, I had my little daughter she was four at the time, had already gotten back together with my husband after his affair, and all of that, someone that was also one of the victims back in the Ivory Coast found me on the internet and she wrote to me and said is this the same Kristen Duntham that lived in the Ivory Coast?
42:30
Kristin: Blah, blah, blah, blah blah.
42:31
Kristin: Yes, it is.
42:32
Kristin: Oh my gosh, how are you?
42:34
Kristin: It's so great to hear from you.
42:35
Kristin: Blah, blah, blah.
42:35
Kristin: And she said and this is all in the book, by the way.
42:38
Kristin: But she said so much to catch up about, but right now there's something more urgent that I need to share with you.
42:46
Kristin: Please see click this link.
42:50
Kristin: So I click the link and it's an article published by the Boston Herald and the headline is ex-foreign service officer turned Eucharist minister arrested for rape of eight-year-old girl on Cape Cod, massachusetts.
43:19
Kristin: And it was Mr Mulcahy.
43:20
Kristin: This big picture of him, all of his hair gone white, but otherwise identical to 22 years earlier.
43:24
Kristin: So then you know, it was just such a horrible, horrible reality.
43:36
Kristin: Not that I had ever thought that, like I never, ever thought, oh well, you know, he got sent back to Washington and so then he changed and I knew, of course he continued molesting people, but it was one of those things that I think that as a child I felt so powerless, that I think that as a child I felt so powerless.
44:05
Kristin: And then the way it all got handled by the State Department, there was this whole aspect of my life and this thing that had happened, that had just been totally walled off and I just I had never.
44:16
Kristin: I mean, I think about this a lot like.
44:19
Kristin: I mean I think about this a lot Like, yeah, why did I?
44:39
Kristin: In all those 22 years I can say it's hard for me to explain exactly how that works, but but when that happened, I um got in touch with the investigative team on cape kite I got there was there was a whole reunion of victims and the mulcahy children who had all also been victims and there was a statute of limitations so many of us weren't able to testify but we were able to submit depositions and so many kids emerged from the woodwork that he had molested and raped in those 22 years.
45:22
Kristin: And there's also suspicion that in the years prior to when my path crossed with him that you know, prior to the Ivory Coast, he had been in Vietnam and the Philippines and there is, of course, suspicion that he had victimized many people in those countries.
45:41
Kristin: So it's just awful yeah.
45:47
Mary: So when you I think it was when you started talking about the $20,000, that's when the question popped into my mind when did you get mad?
45:55
Mary: When did you really get angry?
45:59
Kristin: Yeah, it's so interesting.
46:02
Kristin: Yeah, you know, I honestly think this is going to maybe sound crazy, but it's really fascinating, I so I mentioned that this book came out a year ago tomorrow, I thought when I wrote the book and as I was getting ready to release it, I thought like that was the work, I had done the work.
46:33
Kristin: What I have realized in this last year is now the work is happening, because now I'm really fucking furious.
46:47
Kristin: It's now it's like I think that until I literally released this book, I think I was still holding my breath, and it's only been in this last year through conversations like this and going around speaking to people and being vocal, you know, on Instagram and on Facebook and any chance I get to say, a middle-aged man sexually molested a 10, 11, and 12-year-old girl and I wasn't the only one on a regular basis and that was considered acceptable to the powers that be, and it's still like that.
47:35
Kristin: So my real anger is now.
47:39
Kristin: However, the thing that got me organized to sit down and start writing this book organized to sit down and start writing this book and so this was a flash of anger was when I heard the Larry Nassar story.
47:56
Kristin: That's, lee's ball doctor of USA Gymnastics, who had so many girls had reported him and he had been protected by his employer and you know I have since learned the language for these things that is called institutional collusion, and so that was an initial flash of extreme anger that I felt, like many women, and I try to avoid.
48:31
Kristin: I don't want to alienate anyone because I know that there are differing opinions about this, but I do have to say I was also extremely triggered during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings.
48:44
Kristin: I do believe Christine Blasey Ford and I have in my own life of repeat victimizations.
48:56
Kristin: After you know my childhood abuse, I had been in several date rape situations like the one that she describes.
49:07
Kristin: Date rape situations like the one that she describes and, yeah, the fact that he is, you know, and Clarence Thomas, just all of it.
49:16
Kristin: Trump grab him by the pussy, just all that crap.
49:51
Mary: I'm so sick of it.
49:51
Mary: I'm so sick of it so I'm pretty angry now.
49:52
Mary: Yeah, yeah.
49:52
Mary: And it's been something that's come up often on this show, the idea of women in anger, and I think the times I'm pretty in touch with my anger my husband would tell you and a lot of times it can be on behalf of other things Like we won't go into all of world events right now, but it's a difficult time to remain calm every single day.
49:58
Mary: But I remember so, working at a college, you probably have a higher than average number of, and I'll say, women it can happen to men too but women that are assaulted because Because you have 5,000, you know same age people, and so working with girls that had been assaulted was a monthly I wouldn't say weekly, but a monthly thing, and often it would be told in this very matter of fact, here's what happened.
50:24
Mary: Or, you know, it sort of was shock, like it hadn't set in yet.
50:29
Mary: But even after we would work together for a while and I would bring up anger, they're like I'm not angry and I'm and you know I'm not going to push into that Right At that time.
50:37
Mary: They have to get to it.
50:38
Mary: But that's when I started to recognize that part of what we hold in our bodies as trauma is that, that anger that we have put somewhere, because it is unacceptable, in the face of all these things, it's unacceptable to become indignant about what happened to you and that's really shrinking.
51:02
Mary: And I think that's where and I've said often one of the only acceptable emotions for men is anger and it's not for women.
51:12
Mary: So it's this crazy.
51:14
Mary: We're not in touch with that part of us.
51:16
Mary: And I'm not talking about just going out and ranting forever.
51:19
Mary: That's not helpful either for our physiological well-being.
51:25
Mary: But I think to be in touch with that ability to express the anger and know that you have a right to be angry and then processing that, because anger grows out of other things.
51:40
Mary: But we also hold trauma, and we could have a whole other hour, I'm sure, on that.
51:44
Mary: But what the trauma does, when you even said you had all these things happening, you know drinking and you know sort of all the things that happen when we're trying to keep that at bay.
51:56
Mary: And we don't know till somebody helps us see it and we open what I call the junk drawer and see all the shit in there and we're like, oh my God, that's why.
52:08
Mary: But see, it's so interesting that even now you're saying it's a year after the book was published and I'm connecting to that strong.
52:17
Kristin: Oh yeah, I'm still connecting to it and it's so fascinating.
52:21
Kristin: Let me tell you, I'd love to share this little story with you, because it's funny how I totally agree with you and I find myself talking with with clients about this, also about how you know it's.
52:34
Kristin: It is excellent to be in touch with your anger, and then what is the most useful is if you can figure out how to express anger constructively so that you don't lose your audience.
52:45
Kristin: But what I was going to say is it just lose your audience.
52:50
Kristin: But what I was going to say is it just, it's continued to surprise me this year to see how I have, I guess, changed with anger as the motor.
53:00
Kristin: And so here's the little story that I was going to share with you.
53:05
Kristin: So I mean, I've been single for several years now, single by choice, you know, maybe a little date here and there, but I just haven't found any one that really suits my fancy and I would rather, you know, be at home with a book.
53:21
Kristin: But this past winter I did date someone for a few weeks, someone that I thought, oh, I didn't think, oh, this is the one I don't really believe in, that the one thing.
53:33
Kristin: But I did think, oh, this is someone that I think I would like to get to know this man more.
53:38
Kristin: And, wow, this is a really nice surprise to meet this person, who is a little bit older than me he's 58 and just seemed like a really good guy.
53:47
Kristin: And he is a good guy.
53:49
Kristin: I'm not going to try to turn him into a demon.
53:51
Kristin: However and here's the anger part we were walking down the road one day just chit-chatting about this, that and the other, and you might be aware that a year ago this summer, the Olympics were held here in Paris, and so we arrived at the big Olympic rings and we were talking about the games.
54:12
Kristin: I hadn't known him at the time and I told him how I had gotten out of town, because I hate crowds, but he told me that he had participated in the Olympics and seen, you know, gone to see this, that and the other thing, and then he goes.
54:26
Kristin: Yeah, it was great, but the only thing I regret so much is that I didn't get a chance to see women's volleyball.
54:38
Kristin: They're sad and I just knew what he was going to say.
54:43
Kristin: And I just looked at him and he's like, because the uniforms, they're, you know.
54:48
Kristin: And I was just looking at him and he's like because the uniforms there, you know, and I was just looking at him and he's like, and I think he thought that like I couldn't understand what he was.
54:55
Kristin: He's like, you know, they're so sexy.
54:58
Kristin: And I said I'm like what's the point?
55:03
Kristin: He's like, what do you mean?
55:06
Kristin: What's the point?
55:06
Kristin: He's like totally didn't get what I was talking about and I'm like why are you telling me that?
55:11
Kristin: And I was pissed and he's like what he's like?
55:17
Kristin: They're so beautiful, they're so sexy.
55:20
Kristin: And I'm like so you're this 58-year-old dude who likes to gawk at young women and you're bragging to me about it and we're out on a date and like, don't you see what is wrong with that?
55:36
Kristin: And then, of course, he went off into his speech about how, you know, you can't even say anyone's beautiful any longer.
55:40
Kristin: It was such a turnoff and I thought about it and thought about, I mean, we resolved the discussion in the moment and moved on from it, but that relationship eventually ended and that was one of the reasons for me, because I understand, you know, if you're of a certain generation and you haven't been educated about these things and if you're, you know, sort of a typical entitled guy, you don't maybe think about those things.
56:09
Kristin: But what really pissed me off about him is that he wasn't even interested in looking at his own sexism.
56:19
Kristin: But the reason I'm telling you this story is I think that had that happened to me a year earlier, I would have, even though it would have made me feel bad and it would have made me think, god, what is wrong with?
56:33
Mary: you.
56:34
Kristin: I would have probably just been like, I wouldn't have expressed my anger.
56:40
Kristin: Yeah, I said to him, was.
56:50
Kristin: I'm like are you aware that those sexy uniforms that that actually women athletes have been in a whole what's the word?
56:55
Kristin: There's been a whole issue and they have been trying to negotiate not having to wear those sexist costumes, like do you know?
57:03
Kristin: Of course, I mean, do you would that have made?
57:07
Kristin: And I've asked myself, like, would you would?
57:10
Kristin: Would someone else have gotten mad about that?
57:13
Mary: too.
57:13
Mary: Yeah, I think, pointing out that there was a time where you would have just been like and filed it away, versus, you know, in a, in a relationship, that you think you're building something potentially, I think it's really important to draw that line as strongly as you need to draw it then, yeah, because.
57:35
Mary: But in other situations I think about what's the outcome gonna be, and I don't think you should ever stay silent because you just think that's what you have to do.
57:46
Mary: But I think sometimes there's strategic silence and there's.
57:49
Mary: You know, there are frameworks that people grow up in and you said it, they have no idea Like we can express it, and then it becomes oh, you're just being whatever.
58:00
Mary: No, actually you need to question your framework and I think you know sometimes it's to what end.
58:08
Mary: But I think other times, when it's a personal relationship or potentially somebody that you know you're growing with or you think you might, then that is, if he would have been like wait a second, tell me more about that.
58:24
Mary: You know.
58:26
Kristin: Yeah, that's what he would have been forgiven instantly.
58:29
Kristin: Like are you, are you interested in learning from women?
58:37
Kristin: And that's what I am, you know.
58:38
Kristin: Sometimes people ask me.
58:40
Kristin: They're like do you think you're going to be single?
58:41
Kristin: My daughter, she's 26.
58:43
Kristin: She told me just this past weekend, when I spent the weekend with her for my birthday, she's like you know, mom, I think it's so cool that you're single, like that you're happily single, that you know you're single but you're not there like a shrinking violet about it.
58:56
Kristin: You're like having fun in a great old time.
58:59
Kristin: And and I said, yeah, I mean I, I'm, I'm happy, I am happy.
59:04
Kristin: And she said do you think you ever will let someone in again?
59:09
Kristin: And I said, well, I'm totally open to it, but I am only open to a man who is interested in learning from women.
59:26
Mary: Yeah, and you also said a little bit bit ago, sometimes the anger keeps your message from getting across and I think, yeah, that can be.
59:34
Mary: You know we have this term, karen, which I've recently talked about on many episodes and unfortunately for people who are named karen, but oh my god we've painted the right, we've painted righteous anger with the same brush a lot of times and that is not caring behavior.
59:51
Mary: That's basically saying I'm standing here with my feet apart like I'm trying to make a point here, but I think sometimes, when this is where the the stereotypical response to women's anger comes in, it's like oh, she's hysterical, and that's where I think the point can get missed.
1:00:08
Mary: So then we have to navigate.
1:00:10
Mary: Well, when do I quote, intentionally stay small to get my message across, and when do I throw my arms out and say screw this?
1:00:19
Mary: Like here's what I'm saying, and I think that you know we have so many things we have to sort of navigate with our emotions and our stereotypical monikers that they give people.
1:00:32
Mary: And so I think you know somebody made a point at one point I talked about invisible labor on one of my episodes, where it's women take on all of these things and men have no idea, but they themselves are socialized too.
1:00:46
Mary: So where is the line of like this is socialization.
1:00:50
Mary: So I'm going to like try to explain my position and okay, this is now a choice.
1:00:58
Mary: Like you recognize that it's this or you won't hear that it's this and you just want to stay stuck because you're not going to examine that.
1:01:05
Mary: So it's a really complex thing sometimes that we are, and that's where I think we are always stuck, that you know, I've had women say to me I did this thing, that was hard, because I kept thinking of your show and I would tell myself no shrinking violets.
1:01:24
Kristin: And.
1:01:25
Mary: I would't want the converse of like sometimes you strategically choose a path when maybe you want to scream your head off, but it's a strategy and so it's okay to sometimes do that.
1:01:38
Mary: That doesn't mean you're a shrinking violet, it means you're a smart violet.
1:01:41
Kristin: Yes, indeed A strategic violet, exactly.
1:01:45
Mary: I love that story that you told because I think it really does bring up all of these things and when it's a potential partner, I think they need to see the degree of upsetness.
1:01:57
Kristin: Yeah, totally yeah, and you want to know what's so interesting?
1:02:01
Kristin: Just to link that anecdote back to the topic of complex trauma.
1:02:05
Kristin: Topic of complex trauma I think the reason I've turned that over in my head so much is I'll never forget the day of that conversation because of the way, like the way he was looking at me, as though I was like this unreasonable, mean person for getting after him, for making such a dumb sexist comment after him for making such a dumb sexist comment.
1:02:37
Kristin: And one of the things that I have had to work so hard on in my life and I consider this one of the major pieces of my recovery from a complex trauma is to stop fawning.
1:02:52
Kristin: And for any listeners out there that don't know what fawning is because I think that's really only becoming part of the popular lexicon now is, you know, fawning is the accommodating, the being nice, the making nice, the acting, pleasing in order to ensure relational safety.
1:03:25
Kristin: I was extremely uncomfortable, I was extremely humiliated and embarrassed and I didn't like it.
1:03:32
Kristin: But I would just freeze and let him do his thing and then, as soon as he was done, I would go back into acting like nothing had just happened.
1:03:40
Kristin: You know, let's go back to playing Marco Polo.
1:03:44
Kristin: I mean, five minutes ago you had your hand in my bathing suit, but now I'm going to play Marco Polo like nothing happened.
1:03:49
Kristin: And so many variations on that.
1:03:54
Kristin: And I think the reason that particular anecdote that I just shared about the you know the uniforms are so sexy really affected me is because I understood instinctively like, oh, if I want to remain in good standing with this guy and have him still like me and have everything still continue on in the good way that it's going, so maybe I'll have a relationship, I should be fawning now, I should do that thing.
1:04:32
Kristin: I should do that thing, I should act like it doesn't affect me seriously to have this 58-year-old dude making comments about young women who are professional athletes and how he wants to show up to gawk at them in their skimpy little outfits that they don't even want to wear, but that he doesn't even know about that.
1:04:46
Kristin: Because who cares about the politics of women's sports?
1:04:49
Kristin: And you know, either I can accept that and make nice so I can keep having a relationship, or I can tell him how irritating and dumb that I thought that was and I chose that one.
1:05:05
Kristin: But it's hard to function differently.
1:05:06
Kristin: As you know, it's very hard, and I think in that one, but it's hard to to to function differently, as you know.
1:05:10
Mary: It's very hard and I think in that situation, when it's a new potential relationship, we can sort of default to well, I don't want to make waves because everything seems to be going well and it might be this only thing, and I guarantee you, when you let it go, it's going to grow bigger.
1:05:25
Mary: It's going to grow bigger and it's going to be so.
1:05:28
Mary: Yeah, I think you bring up a good point and that's, um, probably a future mini episode for me is talking about not just fight, flight and freeze, but that fawn which is much more complex and we can think about without getting into details.
1:05:42
Mary: You know the p diddy situation oh god, oh my god, there was that's that's a, really, when you think about what happened in that and how the reaction was there was a huge power differential and getting swept up in that and, yeah, to try, I fought him too much, I would lose the roof over my head.
1:06:12
Kristin: And you know that.
1:06:13
Kristin: Just to add, going back to the cover up that the State Department did See, that's one of the things that I find most reprehensible about what the State Department did to all of their staff who were parents of victims, because our parents fought back to an extent, but our parents' entire lives were controlled by the State Department salary, housing, schooling for the children, all of it.
1:06:45
Kristin: And so how much can you fight back against the hand that feeds you?
1:06:51
Mary: Yeah, yeah, it's.
1:06:53
Mary: It gets very complex and then you know the kids are obviously paying the biggest price.
1:06:59
Mary: But yeah.
1:07:00
Mary: What, what a story and what um.
1:07:02
Mary: So many experiences that you have.
1:07:06
Mary: We are about the same age, so you've packed a lot of stuff into your life so many cool things too.
1:07:12
Mary: I love that you are living in Paris, and so thank you so much for this conversation.
1:07:19
Mary: I've thoroughly enjoyed it.
1:07:21
Mary: I think the time flew by this is probably going to be my longest episode.
1:07:24
Kristin: Oh my gosh, yeah Well, and I hope I wasn't too long winded.
1:07:27
Kristin: I know I can go blah, blah, blah but thank you so much.
1:07:30
Mary: So can you first, before I end, where can people find you, and then I will also link it in the show notes.
1:07:36
Kristin: Yes, okay.
1:07:37
Kristin: So the easiest way to find me is, you know, go on to Google and type in my name, kristen Duncombe or Kristen Louise Duncombe.
1:07:47
Kristin: I use my middle name as well in my author name, but I have a website, it's kristenduncombecom.
1:07:53
Kristin: There you can find everything about my practice, about my books and, yeah, about everything.
1:08:00
Mary: Okay, so I will link it in the show notes.
1:08:02
Kristin: Yes, thank you so much.
1:08:03
Mary: Sure, this was a wonderful conversation.
1:08:06
Mary: I can't believe all the time that went by.
1:08:08
Mary: It just flew by talking to you.
1:08:11
Kristin: I don't know when Will the episode be coming out?
1:08:15
Kristin: Probably September?
1:08:17
Kristin: Oh, in September?
1:08:18
Kristin: Okay, because I was going to say that in honor of the one-year anniversary of the book, I'm putting it on Kindle for free for the next three days, starting tomorrow.
1:08:30
Kristin: But by the time the episode airs, that will have already come and gone.
1:08:34
Kristin: But anyways, I always like to say to anyone out there who feels that they cannot afford a book write to me and I will send you one, Because for me the most important thing is I want people to know what happened.
1:08:44
Kristin: Mm hmm.
1:08:46
Mary: Well, and I will say so for people listening, we're recording this.
1:08:49
Mary: I think it's August 12th, but if you want to send something for me to put on my social media, that's up to you and I'll just say this is a pending episode.
1:08:59
Mary: Oh, sure, I would love to.
1:09:00
Mary: Wonderful that will be coming out in.
1:09:01
Mary: September, but for now and you know I'm going to be on Kindle as soon as I hit stop recording.
1:09:07
Mary: But, all right, and I also want to thank everyone for listening.
1:09:12
Mary: Who do you know who would love this episode?
1:09:14
Mary: Take a minute right now and forward it to them, and until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant Violet that you are.
1:09:22
Mary: Thank you.