Latest / Make Water Work Podcast / Manny Patel: From Regulator to Bridge Builder | Make Water Work 051

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Manny Patel: From Regulator to Bridge Builder | Make Water Work 051 · Make Water Work Podcast

0:00
Welcome to the Make Water Work podcast,
0:03
where we dive into the people, ideas,
0:05
and innovations shaping the future of
0:08
water. We bring you insights from
0:11
hundreds of incredible conversations
0:13
we've had over the past 9 years with
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inspiring and energizing leaders with
0:18
entrepreneurs, community champions, and
0:20
innovators who are making water work for
0:23
everyone. Whether you're a water
0:24
professional, a curious innovator, or
0:27
simply passionate about our most
0:28
precious resource, this podcast is for
0:31
you. Let's get started.
0:42
Well, welcome to the Make Water Work
0:44
podcast. I'm your host, Isaac Pellerin,
0:46
and I have conversations with
0:48
innovators, leaders, and folks who
0:51
really serve the water industry well.
0:53
Um, we're lucky enough to have today's
0:55
guest be a recent addition to the 120
0:59
Water team. Um, I get the honor of
1:01
having a conversation with Manny Patel,
1:03
who is now the senior director of water
1:05
administration at 120 Water. Um, where
1:08
he's really serving as a bridge between
1:11
water systems, state drinking water
1:12
programs, and utilities. There's a lot
1:15
of complexity there. He spent two
1:17
decades at the Georgia um as a as a
1:20
regulator in Georgia. And so there's a
1:23
lot that we can learn and there's a lot
1:26
that we have coming on the horizon that
1:30
Manny is having a direct impact in
1:32
helping shape. And so Manny, I'm so
1:35
excited to have this conversation with
1:37
you.
1:38
>> Isaac, same as well. Good. First of all,
1:40
good morning. I've listened to all the
1:42
previous podcasts. I think we did just
1:44
you just did the number 50 last last
1:47
one. So I've listened to all of them.
1:49
and I get different perspective from,
1:50
you know, all the different industry
1:52
leaders that you bring on. So, it's
1:54
really a great uh an honor for me to be
1:56
on this podcast.
1:58
>> Yeah. Phenomenal. Well, you know, you
2:00
since you've listened to all these, you
2:02
know, how all of these start. We we um
2:06
you know, when you work in this
2:07
industry, you know that everyone has a
2:08
story about what brought them here and
2:11
and we kind of phrase it as not
2:13
necessarily how did you find water, but
2:15
how did water find you? What was the
2:17
draw there? Um, and so Manny, how did
2:19
water find you?
2:21
>> I mean, I love that question. How did
2:22
water find us? I mean, as as you know,
2:24
all of us came from somewhere. So, I
2:25
was, as you introduce myself, I was in a
2:28
regulatory position for about 20 years.
2:31
Uh, 30 years of that, most of that was
2:34
spent in the airside. And I had an
2:36
opportunity to get a promotion. I had
2:37
young kids in college, need some money.
2:40
And my boss calls me up and says, "You
2:42
need to come on the water side." And his
2:43
name was Jack Gap. He's retired since
2:45
from the state. you know, says, "Jack, I
2:47
don't know anything about water except
2:49
that it comes from a tap and I drink it.
2:51
You know, that's about it." Um, so like
2:54
I said, you know, it was I saw that as a
2:56
good opportunity to do something
2:57
different. Uh, and I really really am
3:01
glad that I got that opportunity because
3:03
I had I can honestly say that I had most
3:06
fun of my almost 40 years career in the
3:10
last 10 years in the water sector.
3:12
>> I am glad water found me. It really
3:15
reignited my passion for the
3:17
environmental field. But you know, water
3:19
just uh is really got me going and I'm
3:22
still going. I'm still here. I've you
3:24
know I did retired from the state but
3:26
I'm like I got to stay engaged in the
3:28
water sector. It's just so much fun.
3:31
>> Yeah. Yeah, it it is. And you started
3:34
out as a chemical engineer um and so um
3:38
in in industrial and consulting um and
3:43
so you kind of shared what pulled you
3:45
into public service but talk a little
3:46
bit about the early early part of your
3:48
career
3:49
>> right so I'm I'm a chemical engineer by
3:51
training chemical engineer at heart love
3:53
petroleum refining I worked uh in in uh
3:56
uh HP which is was owned by you know BP
4:00
Petroleum at the time in India for about
4:01
a here. Uh, and it was fun. I love I
4:04
love refining. Came over on on US side
4:07
to finish my masters and and still
4:09
stayed on the process side and then uh
4:12
eventually got on the consulting side.
4:14
Uh, ended up designing air pollution
4:16
control equipment because I wanted to be
4:18
on the design and the process side. So I
4:20
I was very instrumental in installing
4:23
RTO's, bag houses and scrubbers, your
4:26
typical air pollution control
4:28
equipments, you know. Um, and it was
4:30
fun. And then I got onto the regulatory
4:32
side because every project has a
4:34
regulatory component to it.
4:36
>> I started reading the clean air act and
4:38
in all of that uh and got into into the
4:41
permitting sides of things and I liked
4:43
uh really doing the complex permitting
4:46
that goes on with the air side. Um I did
4:49
consulting for about 15 years pretty
4:51
much with the same company. Uh so the
4:54
fun in consulting was I I get to see
4:57
different processes uh meet to different
5:00
industry different challenges. Uh and
5:02
that's what really kept me going in air
5:04
for the longest time to be honest. Um um
5:07
and then my kids were getting older. My
5:09
son was 10, my daughter was eight. I
5:11
looked around and says, "Man, I'm
5:13
traveling a lot. If I don't down, uh
5:16
this case will be in college before I'll
5:18
see them, you know." Uh so I decided to
5:21
just like slow down the pace wanted to
5:23
stay in the airfield came to work for
5:26
the state really for a work life balance
5:28
but also being on the other side of the
5:30
table because as a consultant I always
5:33
dealt with all the regulators all the
5:35
time whether it's permitting compliance
5:37
matters
5:38
>> you know presenting our control
5:40
strategies so I wanted to experience on
5:43
the other side as well and contribute to
5:45
the to the public sector which I think
5:46
is a noble cause you know Yeah. Yeah.
5:49
Absolutely. I think what's really cool
5:52
about that that story and and your
5:55
trajectory is that you never really
5:59
stopped designing
6:01
things cuz um from from the time that
6:04
I've known you, you've you've had to
6:06
design programs, design how to implement
6:10
regulatory and not afraid to say, "Hey,
6:12
we need to think about this
6:13
differently."
6:14
Um, and so for listeners, I wanted to
6:18
kind get into um like state drinking
6:21
water programs um as a topic overall. So
6:25
maybe for listeners who have never seen
6:27
it from the inside, what is a state
6:29
drinking water program um manager
6:32
administrator actually do?
6:34
>> Absolutely. So when like I said when I
6:36
came over uh it was all new to me
6:38
waterfall me but uh it when I got to the
6:41
water side u I had a lot of uh learning
6:44
to do myself right but just just talking
6:47
from a program perspective and different
6:49
states are are set up differently but
6:51
overall the functions are the same right
6:53
we have to
6:54
>> the state has to implement all the safe
6:56
drinking water act regulations which
6:58
means we have to make sure water systems
7:01
are taking the required samples water
7:03
systems are doing the required testing,
7:06
the test data is submitted, that data
7:09
goes into an EPS database called SIDVIS
7:11
and and that way that's where the
7:13
transfer transparency comes in. Uh so
7:16
that's just an aspect of making sure the
7:19
water system the water systems that are
7:21
out of compliance, our goal is to offer
7:24
them technical assistance and bring them
7:26
into compliance. So we have technical
7:28
assistance contract with the training
7:30
partners Georgia rural water association
7:33
Georgia association of water
7:34
professionals. They do um one of the pro
7:37
one of the core program also is we have
7:39
to have certified operators running the
7:42
program. So we have to make sure these
7:44
operators are getting certified. There
7:46
are tests that they have to take. There
7:48
are cus that they need to accumulate to
7:50
keep their licenses current. And you
7:53
know in in Georgia we got 90 all of our
7:55
plants are run by 99 99 plus percent are
7:59
all run by certified operators. We find
8:01
once in a while somebody is just going
8:02
through the process but for the most
8:04
part. So that's that. We also have to
8:06
make sure we run a capacity development
8:08
program. We're planning for the future.
8:11
We are making sure there's going to be
8:12
water available for the next 20, 30, 50
8:15
years.
8:15
>> Yeah. So I work with my counterparts in
8:19
our surface water and groundwater
8:21
withdrawal programs to make sure we're
8:22
balancing those needs. You know, they're
8:24
looking at instream data quality and how
8:26
much water is available. Um so work with
8:29
other programs as well to make sure I've
8:31
got capacity uh for the future growth
8:34
which is important and you know as all
8:36
this talks about data centers coming in
8:38
and using up all the water that
8:40
conversation gets more and more
8:41
important. Mhm.
8:42
>> Um, all of these plants, um, drinking
8:45
water plants, we have about 2400 in
8:47
Georgia. So, it's a it's a it's a big
8:50
matrix. They all have to be inspected
8:52
once every 3 years. So,
8:54
>> yeah,
8:55
>> calls them sanitary service, but in a
8:57
sense, they are inspections. Uh, they're
8:59
announced, they're not unannounced, but
9:01
they're announced inspections. So, we
9:02
are inspecting all of these facilities
9:04
for, you know, right from their sources.
9:07
How their sources are looking good? Are
9:09
they protecting their sources? mapping
9:10
out the whole system like from where it
9:12
comes to distribution.
9:14
>> Yep. From start to finish, we go all the
9:16
way start from where their intake is all
9:18
the way to to the last step. So, you
9:20
know, we are inspecting
9:22
>> the conditions, the assessments, you
9:24
know, where where they need to improve,
9:26
you know, are they having certified
9:28
operators? And so, that's another big
9:30
component of of the program. Georgia is
9:33
also know the one of the state that uh
9:35
runs a permitting program. Not all
9:37
states permit their water systems, but
9:39
Georgia does. So all of these permits,
9:41
we have an expiration date of 10 years.
9:44
>> So permits have to be renewed every 10
9:46
years. So it's constantly we're
9:47
renewing, you know, about 300 give or
9:50
take 300 permits every year. So we have
9:53
a whole engineering group that is is
9:55
looking at that. And then as we know
9:58
plants are always adding capacity
10:00
they're expanding you know changing new
10:02
equipments or adding new technology be
10:04
it control for PAS or you know uh any of
10:07
those components engineering they're
10:09
required to submit us plans and specs
10:11
you know actually step back they
10:13
actually required to do pilot study for
10:14
any new technologies piloting the
10:16
studies we're approving the pilot study
10:18
plans reviewing the results of pilot
10:20
studies and then based on those
10:23
approvals the consultants or the water
10:25
system engineer ers are designing these
10:27
plants. They'll submit us the plans and
10:29
specifications of their of their
10:31
extension, expansion, you know, new
10:34
build, whatever the case might be.
10:36
Engineers are reviewing those plans
10:38
against the standards. Georgia is one of
10:40
the states along with the 10 states to
10:42
have minimum standards. We basically
10:44
taken the the 10 state standards um
10:47
document and and take some Georgia twist
10:50
to it and adoptive Georgia. So we have
10:52
to make sure the plants are meeting
10:54
those minimum standards.
10:56
>> Yeah.
10:56
>> So so that there's a whole engine I had
10:58
a about 12 engineers in the in the
11:01
program at one time that that took care
11:03
took care of approving the pilot plans
11:06
reviewing all the specifications. So
11:08
that's another element of the program.
11:11
And then we also have source water
11:13
protection. As we all know if we can the
11:16
cleaner the water the less treatment we
11:18
have to do. So we want to protect our
11:20
sources. So we have a group of
11:22
geologists that manages our source water
11:24
protection.
11:25
>> So when for example if somebody wants to
11:28
put in a new well we got well sighting
11:30
criteria does that meet is it away from
11:33
the landfield is it away from nearest
11:35
gas station if there's a gas station can
11:37
it leak and contaminate the water. So
11:39
yeah is it is it located in a flood
11:41
zone? Yeah. Uh so we got all of these
11:44
criteras charges. So we have a whole
11:47
source water protection program that of
11:49
course is required under the safe
11:50
drinking water act we got to run. So if
11:52
I can put like in big four or five
11:55
buckets, you have source water
11:57
protection going on uh in one group. You
12:00
got inspection, those are sanitary
12:02
surveys going on in the second group.
12:05
You got compliance group that is making
12:07
sure all the samples are taken. The
12:09
results are within MCL's if not you know
12:12
help them technical assist and get them
12:14
into compliance. And then you got
12:16
engineering group that is reviewing all
12:18
these plans and specification. So that's
12:21
if if it's kind of need to put like in a
12:23
four big bucket that's essentially what
12:25
a program is. Uh yeah and then we don't
12:28
have a financial components uh of the of
12:30
the program
12:32
>> as you know the states gets funding uh
12:34
from from SRF uh and those in some
12:37
states are part of the drinking water
12:39
program. In Georgia it is a separate
12:41
agency but those are the core components
12:43
of a drinking water program to make sure
12:46
we're delivering safe water 247 to our
12:49
citizens.
12:50
>> Yeah. And I think what's what strikes me
12:53
is that we hear a lot when we're talking
12:56
about water utilities um in the US, we
12:59
hear about the um the workforce gap and
13:03
that there isn't enough folks in the
13:05
workforce for that. But when you know
13:08
the more that that um I've been able to
13:10
peel back the layers at the state agency
13:13
level, there's also resource
13:16
constraints. And so it kind of becomes
13:19
the the place where where um kind of
13:23
puts the right ingredients where
13:25
innovation and new things can happen if
13:28
we're open to it. And so, um, I think
13:31
one of the one of the, you know,
13:33
examples is just LCR, LCRI, like we had
13:38
this program that all of a sudden kind
13:40
of broke some of the paradigms that
13:45
typically worked for water um,
13:47
administrators to manage the work. where
13:50
now a lot of it had to be reported
13:52
digitally um and more connected and not
13:55
just reported up to regulators but also
13:57
more requirements on sharing out to to
14:01
the public kind of what's your take on
14:03
kind of the trajectory of how innovation
14:07
has been spurred on by some regulation
14:09
and then what are some things we should
14:12
um maybe watch out for or not get too
14:15
ahead too over our skis in
14:16
>> so it's a great segue you know I mean as
14:19
As you know the and you're hitting the
14:21
right points all my state colleagues
14:23
know we're we're strapped for resources.
14:25
We have to do more with less. All right.
14:28
Just in the last five years if you look
14:30
at you know the the last major
14:31
regulation was groundwater that was 2009
14:34
right? There has been no new regulations
14:36
in the drinking water sector since then.
14:39
Now all of a sudden you're hit with
14:41
almost five new regulations. lead and
14:43
copper PAS CCR per chlorate and the MDPs
14:48
on the horizon. I mean that's a lot to
14:50
do in a small time frame. So at the same
14:54
time we got you know our our PWSS grant
14:57
which has been flat. We got reduced
14:59
amount of money coming from the SRF
15:01
dollars due to congressionally directed
15:03
projects you know so all those are
15:05
challenges adding new position in a
15:08
state is very very difficult. a lot of
15:10
time it requires legislative approval.
15:13
So I know um you know want to talk about
15:16
learning copper. When I was in the state
15:17
drinking water program at EPD,
15:20
I was looking there and I still remember
15:22
I was asked to a conference. We're
15:24
looking at that and people were just
15:25
talking about inventory and I'm sitting
15:27
there saying okay inventory is one
15:30
component. I know I had done some
15:31
homework. I had about 3 million plus
15:34
service line that data is going to come
15:36
in. At that point EPA just had an Excel
15:39
template and I'm like this is not Excel
15:41
is not built to handle that large amount
15:44
of data. uh and and the burden falls and
15:47
you utility to do the inventory. But I
15:49
think what the states were missing the
15:50
point is you got to have a vehicle for
15:53
that to be submitted uh to us for and
15:56
then the state has to review those
15:58
inventories, approve them, reject them,
16:00
you know, send them back. Uh you hit on
16:03
the on the public component how we're
16:05
going to display this to the public.
16:06
This is a unique rule where none of the
16:08
previous rules were required to have a
16:11
public transparency uh you know to the
16:14
the public. So you got systems 50,000
16:17
and above had to have a dashboard and I
16:19
mean had to put that on the websites.
16:21
Everybody else had to make this
16:22
inventory available to the public. So
16:24
there was this component that nobody's
16:26
thinking of. And in my mind even beyond
16:28
that as a regulator I'm thinking they're
16:30
saying okay I've asked for 20 new
16:32
position
16:33
>> I got three
16:35
>> I got three new position that was it so
16:37
I have to manage everything and that's
16:38
also temporary because that's funded
16:40
from the build funding
16:42
>> I got to figure out how I'm going to
16:44
review 1900 inventories with just three
16:47
new additional staff
16:49
>> so to me software was needed as a
16:52
solution I said at the conference back
16:54
in you know 20 uh But three or four
16:57
years back is like we got to be looking
16:59
at software as a solution because EPA is
17:02
not giving us any assistance um on side
17:05
you know they're just going to capture
17:07
these five fields and transfer over to
17:09
SIDBS but the got to be doing all of the
17:12
of the heavy work
17:14
>> we need a software not just for the
17:16
inventory submission but more
17:18
importantly I think the state work
17:20
starts now from the baseline inventory
17:23
>> yeah how are you going to make sure
17:25
>> there are new workflows those that are
17:26
>> right. All of these things going to kick
17:28
in now, right? You going to talk about
17:29
school and daycare sampling got to be
17:31
done. The replacement plans are due, you
17:34
know, they the make sure that they're on
17:35
track to do the replacements, right? Uh
17:38
the tiers are going to change based on
17:39
on where the inventory is. So whole
17:42
sampling plans can change. So there's a
17:44
lot of work that the state has to do and
17:47
there is no tools built by EPA or in
17:50
SIB. So nothing was existing at the time
17:52
in private sector even to purchase. So
17:54
that's why I started having conversation
17:56
with with about having an inventory and
17:59
then at the time 120 water was there and
18:01
they started having conversation with
18:03
myself and say hey we can help you
18:04
develop a tool what is your vision and
18:06
that was my vision to
18:08
>> have something that will make a
18:11
dashboard where everything comes in one
18:13
place and and that's how that's how we I
18:16
got started with 120 waters you know on
18:18
on the site. Yep. stays consistent with
18:20
your origin story of like like wanting
18:22
that drive to be part of the designing.
18:26
It was it was an opportunity to lean in.
18:28
Not everything was done. It was like it
18:31
was this is what's possible, but before
18:33
we put a ton of a ton of uh hands-on
18:37
keyboards and code, um let's make sure
18:39
we're designing this for the needs that
18:43
are we're taking this workflow, but we
18:46
know that this is the start of what can
18:48
be a a much larger value to um to state
18:55
agencies, to utilities, and ultimately
18:58
to the public. Absolutely.
19:00
>> Um yeah. Yeah. Um yeah. And um um Is
19:05
there anything else you you'd like?
19:06
>> I think the CCR
19:08
and copper is is Sorry, didn't mean to
19:10
talk you over. I'm sorry.
19:12
>> Like oh LCR like Yeah, we know that
19:14
that's that's the place. I don't want to
19:16
dwell dwell on that. There's so much
19:18
more.
19:19
>> There's so much more. There's so much
19:20
more. So I mean
19:21
>> where do you think the opportunity is?
19:23
Well, I think when I when I look at if I
19:25
put my uh state regulator hat back
19:27
saying if I had stayed longer at at EPD
19:30
and not retired, what next challenges I
19:32
would be tackling. So for me uh looking
19:35
at
19:36
>> two two other things that I would have
19:38
definitely handled. So monthly operating
19:39
reports is one of them, right? M
19:42
>> the safe drinking water act requires all
19:44
water system submit the monthly
19:45
operating reports and and and the
19:48
problem there is as a as I look around
19:50
the landscape on the nation you know a
19:52
lot of them are either receiving the uh
19:54
email in a paper format you know as a
19:57
attachment to email or they might have
20:00
an homegrown solution like in Georgia we
20:02
had a homegrown solution that was 25
20:04
years old is antiquated is not doing
20:08
what it stepped up with the with the
20:09
corsed
20:11
once by homegrown solution the
20:13
traditional people are gone retired
20:16
there's no support it breaks down offer
20:19
there is no interface and there's no
20:21
central dashboard so I can't see right
20:24
now you know if you if you're receiving
20:26
electronically you don't even know if
20:28
all the water systems are submitted the
20:30
monthly operating reports whether there
20:32
were any violations or not so what my
20:34
vision was to to have a monthly
20:36
operating report um submitted
20:38
electronically and and um have a
20:41
dashboard similar to what we have for
20:43
lead and copper in the same dashboard
20:45
where you know it's like a separate tab
20:47
or separate program where
20:48
>> my staff has access to it. Now they can
20:50
see right on the 10th of the month when
20:52
it's due which water system submitted
20:55
which did not. That makes compliance so
20:57
much easy. Now we can just pick up the
20:58
phone and call those five water system
21:00
and saying hey before I sent you notice
21:02
a violation did you submit or did not
21:05
submit because I don't see anything on
21:07
my end right that's what is going to
21:09
bring in efficiencies rather than
21:11
sorting through 2400 emails and figuring
21:14
out if everything came through or not
21:16
and then also looking into data and
21:18
seeing which water systems actually
21:20
exceeded MCL or residure chlorine or
21:23
iron or whatever the case might be right
21:26
>> the you know what my vision was to that
21:28
the software can just flag saying you
21:30
got 10 system that exceeded something.
21:32
>> Now my staff can focus on those 10
21:35
system and see what the accidents were
21:38
and the rest of them just like we did in
21:40
in LCR put all these guardrails so that
21:43
you know the the data that comes in is
21:45
already cleaned up. You don't have to
21:46
worry about
21:47
>> the QAQC is kind of happening on the
21:49
front end
21:50
>> more than more than like six months
21:53
later. Oh, we found out that this is
21:54
wrong. Like this is wrong.
21:56
>> And and it's more, you know, it's more I
21:58
think it's better response time because,
22:00
you know, now I on the 10th of the
22:01
month, I can issue out the notice of
22:03
violation. I can look at those 10 plants
22:05
and send them, you know, send the
22:07
violations of MCL or whatever the case
22:09
might be, right? It's taking 30, 45, 60,
22:12
90 days to get to those reports. And you
22:14
got to keep in mind, we got this report
22:16
2400 reports coming every month. So
22:18
there's no opportunity to catch up.
22:20
>> Uh you're always behind. So that would
22:22
be one program that would have
22:24
definitely uh looked at you know
22:26
upgrading modernizing using a dashboard
22:29
kind of setup. And the third thing that
22:31
comes to my mind is the the CCRs. You
22:34
know, as we all know,
22:36
>> CCRs used to be once a once a year.
22:38
Again, I think there is no central
22:40
system that pe people get it via email,
22:43
paper, fax, you name it, in many
22:45
different ways, you know. Um and and um
22:49
uh and again is we don't know. I mean, I
22:52
had staff
22:53
>> and so much of that is data that is in
22:56
the other programs. Correct. data is
22:59
already in Sidway. You know, the EPA
23:01
does have a CCR generator where does the
23:04
some of the heavy lift but it the water
23:06
system still have to make fill some
23:08
portions of it.
23:09
>> And for example, it didn't have the lead
23:11
and copper components to it but that was
23:13
to be added. UCMR5 has to be added. So
23:16
there's you know it does gives you a
23:18
shell but not complete in my opinion.
23:20
And then I'm from if I'm looking on the
23:22
state side it's coming through emails. I
23:25
don't know. I have to wait till July 1st
23:27
to see how many came in, did not come
23:29
in.
23:29
>> Uh and and and then we obviously don't
23:33
have resources to manage of 2400. We
23:36
just randomly pick about 20% of them and
23:38
and see if they're complete or not.
23:40
>> Yeah. So you got you got a staff again
23:42
same kind of thing where if CCRs can be
23:44
generated using existing sampling data
23:47
which all the water systems take you
23:49
know whether be
23:50
>> um in in SIDVIS or or in a sample
23:52
manager kind of program that 120 water
23:54
has you know if all that can be
23:56
automated and then emailed out you know
24:00
um and and I think 120 water has you
24:02
know email out where we have a uh
24:06
accountability where we can open it see
24:08
how many emails were sent which were
24:10
open, which were not open, which were
24:11
bound. So, you got a track instead of
24:13
this old snail mail approach. I think
24:16
old it's nobody, you know,
24:19
>> I would rather trust an email than touch
24:21
uh trust a US mail, right? I mean, for
24:23
people even opening that email.
24:25
>> Absolutely.
24:26
>> So, that is the third thing that I would
24:27
look if if I want to bring efficiency,
24:29
if I had hang around at EPD for the next
24:31
couple of years, that would be my wish
24:34
list on
24:35
>> Yeah. You know we got LCR like I said
24:37
that's already been talked about but you
24:39
know to me Morse is another example CCR
24:42
is another example and if I talk five
24:45
years out if I had hang around if I had
24:47
the money and resources to do it I would
24:49
also bring all of the compliance module
24:52
for each of the rule managers into the
24:54
dashboard. So then everything that the
24:56
state drinking water program runs it's
24:59
under one dashboard. Here's my info on
25:01
that in copper. Here's my info on CCRs.
25:03
Here's my info on moores. you know even
25:06
you can include boil water notices you
25:08
know um goes on in the state right you
25:10
can do that
25:11
>> so that would be my grand vision if I
25:14
had the time money and the resources to
25:17
bring digital changes into the drinking
25:20
water sector and personally I think it's
25:22
about 20 20 years behind we are quarter
25:26
behind on technology
25:28
>> yeah and I think you know kind of going
25:32
to the funding challenge that we always
25:35
have. I do think that sometimes we try
25:37
to solve funding backwards and and and
25:42
everything that you're talking about is
25:44
saying, hey, we might be able to get
25:46
better leading indicators, higher
25:48
quality data, a better way of saying
25:51
what are the needs to address critical
25:55
failing infrastructure and what serves
25:57
us best. And I think that it's hard to
25:59
tell that story when you know how do you
26:02
easily tell that story to mayors to
26:05
governors to make its way all the way up
26:08
to state congress and federal to say hey
26:11
this is important instead of saying it's
26:14
important because we had to react to an
26:17
event like like Flint or Jackson uh
26:21
Mississippi like instead of and saying
26:24
hey we actually have some leading
26:25
indicators of what's what's around the
26:28
corner corner because we have
26:30
>> standardized data and we're seeing the
26:32
trends. Well, that's that's the thing I
26:34
think in my mind data is powerful tool
26:38
you know when you can vis when you can
26:40
visually display the data it even
26:42
becomes more powerful right yeah
26:44
>> so having a having access to the data
26:47
the trends and so catching some of that
26:49
beforehand I mean if you look at a
26:51
typical uh you know SRF agency what they
26:55
do they would you know get the funding
26:57
then they would call out for projects
26:59
and water system would submit and some
27:01
will get the money. Someone won't get
27:03
the money because as we know there's
27:04
never enough money. But instead if we
27:06
have a datadriven approach where even
27:08
the SRF folks can look at and saying we
27:11
got problems with DBPS this water system
27:14
have issues with for example I'm picking
27:16
on DBPs
27:17
>> for last five years they need some
27:20
funding and we can and those are really
27:23
not
27:23
>> like the risk level is high all of the
27:25
indicators are saying we should
27:28
prioritize this instead
27:30
>> instead instead of replacing automatic
27:32
meters AMIs I'm not saying those are bad
27:34
but you
27:36
you know yes
27:37
>> when you have limited funds how do you
27:39
how do you prioritize
27:40
>> prioritize the fund and I think that's
27:42
the value of having all of these data in
27:45
a dashboard kind of formats where we
27:48
again you know the AI we can slap on an
27:50
AI module on top of that AI module can
27:53
look at all these trends and and alert
27:56
you of what is going on hey if you don't
27:57
watch out they you know this water
27:59
system is going to be out of compliance
28:01
uh and so now the technical assistance
28:04
providers can get be proactive rather
28:07
than reactive. the SRF model
28:10
out the consequences like Bay, hey,
28:12
what's the consequence of failure for
28:14
this? And you know, I think that that's
28:16
one of the things that you were also
28:18
instrumental in. And it kind of it kind
28:21
of blows my mind when I when I think
28:23
about how um
28:26
how modern of a society we are. And yet
28:31
we are just new to even having um
28:34
updated asset management rules
28:37
requirements because but yet we still we
28:40
know that the headlines are hey critical
28:42
infrastructure is failing and but we
28:46
also don't have a mechanism to or
28:48
haven't had until more recently
28:51
mechanisms to say hey we need an asset
28:54
management have to understand the
28:56
condition of assets so that we can
28:57
understand are we at risk of having a
29:00
failure. Um yeah, talk to me a bit about
29:03
asset management.
29:04
>> I think that's another topic that is
29:06
near and dear to my heart. You know, I
29:09
truly think um you know, water utilities
29:12
need a a proactive asset management
29:16
tool. I don't like to just make the
29:18
rules where they do an asset management
29:19
study and put the data on the shelf.
29:21
That does no good to anybody. Um you
29:24
know what surprised me is with a handful
29:27
of even some larger utilities you know
29:29
they did not have a robust asset
29:32
management program you know they didn't
29:34
even have a complete inventory of all of
29:37
their linear assets and when they go
29:40
through that you know they they really
29:42
surprised at themselves of how much uh
29:45
asset it's old they'd even capture some
29:49
asset they didn't have on the books so
29:51
that's the one thing is just getting a
29:53
complete picture of all your asset,
29:55
their age, their conditions, right? And
29:58
how long will they last? Can I do a
30:01
maintenance, preventive maintenance on
30:03
this assets and extend the life of the
30:05
asset rather than doing waiting for a
30:08
catastrophic failure uh of the asset. Uh
30:11
so asset management, you know, I give
30:14
example of larger utility in Atlanta
30:15
when they started going through the
30:17
program, one thing that you don't
30:19
consider, you're always thinking if
30:20
you're a utility, you're always thinking
30:21
vertical asset, right? Think about your
30:23
billing system. Computers needs to be
30:25
replaced three to five years max, right?
30:28
>> That's a big IT expense that nobody
30:30
accounts for, right? Your trucks on the
30:33
road 10 year life frame life frame,
30:36
right? Again, nobody's thinking of them
30:37
as a linear asset. So when they started
30:39
going through this exercise, it was
30:40
really an eyeopener. And I think the the
30:43
second thing that really opened their
30:45
eye was I, you know, look at your look
30:48
do a reserve study. Are you putting
30:50
enough? How much money you going to need
30:52
over the years? One year, two years, 5
30:54
years to do some of these project.
30:56
>> When you start looking at from that
30:58
perspective, it starts opening your
30:59
eyes. Um but more importantly to me is
31:03
getting started in asset management,
31:04
getting an inventory of your asset,
31:07
getting an a condition of your asset and
31:10
just even having a PM proactive PM in
31:13
place making sure uh and then it you
31:16
know adding an AI on top of it where we
31:19
can say hey you know this asset is at
31:21
risk you might want to service this one
31:23
first you know we can also pin stop
31:25
pinpointing the leaks in a system and
31:28
you'll suddenly find out that in you,
31:31
you know, you got most what your
31:32
tourists as we know have a replacement
31:33
plan, right? You know, they're replacing
31:35
3% or 2% of whatever the number is of
31:38
their of their pipes every year. And the
31:42
the conventional wisdom in industry,
31:44
start with the oldest first and work
31:46
your way up. Well, when you start
31:48
putting the data together, you'll
31:49
certainly find out or or or may find out
31:52
and some some have is like even though
31:55
you know some of the older assets are
31:57
holding pretty good, but then on the
31:59
north side of the town where the assets
32:01
are new, the pipes are new, but they're
32:04
having more breaks and that could be
32:06
either poor construction, poor material,
32:08
you know.
32:09
>> Yeah, age isn't the most age is not the
32:12
right indicator.
32:15
age is not just the one indicator
32:17
>> has to get put in against other event
32:19
data and how is it performed over time
32:22
like there's there's a whole
32:24
>> slightly not a highly sophisticated
32:27
algorithm just a slightly more
32:29
sophisticated algorithm to say hey m
32:32
like let's make sure and I actually
32:34
think that that's part of the problem
32:36
that we have when we try to make cases
32:38
for funding is that we talk about it in
32:42
terms of such a big number but we fail
32:45
fail to be able to tell the story in a
32:47
way that breaks it down into meaningful
32:49
actionable
32:51
near-term actions that start making a
32:53
dent. And so it's like we have trillions
32:55
of dollars that we it's like great but
32:57
what could we do with
33:00
hundreds of millions where would we
33:02
prioritize that that it would have the
33:03
most lift? So like it otherwise it just
33:06
is it's just too
33:08
>> I think I think you're hitting a good
33:10
point where I think the as an industry
33:12
we're not able to trill or articulate
33:15
our story well
33:16
>> and I think it's to me it's an art I
33:18
don't have that art when I see some
33:20
other people do that I'm like man you
33:22
guys are great you know where to take
33:24
this complex data and complex story and
33:27
distill it down where we can get
33:29
attention and that that is important to
33:33
>> as whether Whether you're a state,
33:34
whether you're a utility, I don't care
33:36
where you which spectrum you come from,
33:38
right? That is something that we as an
33:41
industry have failed to articulate our
33:43
story of our needs of like the new
33:46
service are done every 5 years, you
33:48
know, and yes, it it typically shows we
33:51
need trillions of dollars every year.
33:52
Yeah. But yeah, you know, what can we
33:54
get now that will make the most impact
33:58
uh is what we have failed to show. Uh
34:01
yeah, and it's always counterintuitive
34:04
because I think I think it's human
34:05
nature to say, oh, the the biggest most
34:09
eye popping headline will get the story,
34:13
but it actually is like what are the
34:16
when you're able to articulate, hey,
34:18
what are the what are the steps? let me
34:21
do a crosswalk on how what my use of
34:24
funds would be and what the impact of
34:25
that would be and I can back that up
34:27
because I think you you were saying like
34:29
you know data does tell the story and so
34:33
and I think that's ultimately we can
34:35
tell stories but then when when people
34:37
say okay that's a huge headline how
34:39
where are we how are we backing that up
34:40
and it's like well hypothetically if
34:42
everything failed at once then it'd be
34:44
you know 500 trillion dollars
34:46
>> we're always talking a catastrophic
34:48
situation and I can I can really boil
34:50
down to really simple example like that
34:52
that even you know an operator can
34:55
relate to right I mean
34:56
>> I need a new car 5 years from now okay
34:58
great you know that's going to be
35:00
$50,000 but I have failing brakes and I
35:04
got tires that are shot up I mean that
35:06
that to me is critical right now I need
35:08
money for that so the car is safe it
35:11
doesn't break down and I can get from
35:13
point A to point B right that's the
35:16
story we're failing to tell yes I do
35:18
need $50,000
35:20
from now I need $1,000 right now to fix
35:23
the brakes so that it is safe and the
35:26
car will last longer and do all this
35:29
basic maintenance stuff, right?
35:31
>> Yeah. And and that's the that's the
35:32
story we have failed to do. Yeah.
35:35
>> Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, we could take
35:37
this conversation in a million places. I
35:39
kind of want to like um and we we can
35:42
certainly have have additional segments
35:45
um with you and and other uh other folks
35:48
and and maybe you and I uh co-host a
35:50
couple and and bring on some other love
35:53
to like I said we can talk a lot each
35:55
one of these in in his own own own seg.
36:01
Yep.
36:02
>> Yeah. I do want to ask like just kind of
36:04
as we as we land the plane on this like
36:06
you know after 20 years as a regulator
36:10
what what made you want to join a
36:12
solution provider um like 120?
36:15
>> Well, so I'll be very frank with you. I
36:18
actually was not looking forward to to
36:20
you know retire. I just turned 16 March
36:23
and it was one of those milestones where
36:25
I was eligible to retire from the state
36:28
and I said hard and saying okay am I
36:30
really ready to throw the hat and just
36:33
go fishing you know whatever people you
36:36
know want to do
36:37
>> and I'm still young I mean I want to
36:40
stay engaged in this sector uh and I
36:43
think I have done what I wanted to do on
36:46
the regulatory side which is being an
36:49
advocate for the states an advocate for
36:51
the water systems and and ad you know
36:53
I've been as you know I was on the OSA
36:55
board for a couple of years advocating
36:57
on behalf of of all the member states
37:00
and and tribes um you know for whether
37:03
it's more funding support on the rule
37:05
implementations or I've even taken on
37:07
big uh you know for example when I was
37:10
at the state and I've revised the
37:12
minimum standard that were 20 years old
37:14
you know that nobody it's a big project
37:16
200 plus pages of technical stuff so
37:18
I've challenged some difficult stuff And
37:20
I thought, you know, I had with with the
37:22
staff that I had, even if I do decide to
37:26
do retire, I was going to leave the
37:28
state in a much comfortable place and I
37:32
inherited it. So I I felt good at the
37:34
point as I started looking around and
37:36
saying where do where can I make the
37:38
next impact you know uh and and I had
37:41
some conversation with our CEO at 120
37:43
water and I you know and when I met him
37:47
couple of times I think the vision
37:49
started aligning where where I think I
37:52
wanted to be in terms of being staying
37:54
engaged but making the next difference
37:58
in the water sector. So you know and why
38:01
120 there's other software providers I
38:03
could have looked into it but I think
38:05
when when I look at my experience and
38:07
and all my fellow state regulators know
38:10
that I've said that publicly you know
38:11
again I'm not saying that because I am
38:13
working for 120 water said this before
38:16
as well
38:17
>> that 120 water is more than a software
38:20
provider. Yes, they they do make
38:22
software for the water industry. But I
38:23
think what we got when we partnered with
38:26
120 water was the constant we met
38:29
bi-weekly, you know, we got the training
38:31
for the staff, training for the water
38:33
systems uh
38:36
>> and webinars uh that 120 water puts out.
38:39
is uh in in the train uh you know we did
38:42
specific trainings for mobile home park
38:44
specific trainings for the large water
38:47
system you know specific trainings for
38:48
the others uh and that kind of support
38:51
and I bought software since 1988. I was
38:54
involved in designing databases in 1988
38:57
and I've bought many software throughout
38:59
my career and and as you know a typical
39:02
software uh is here's your software
39:05
we're going to configure it you know
39:06
deliver it to you train your staff for
39:08
30 days maybe 90 days and then after
39:10
that you're on your own as far as
39:13
implementation and training and and and
39:15
just updates on it and I think 120 water
39:19
>> thinks differently they truly have
39:22
the states and the water systems
39:24
interest at heart and making a change,
39:27
making sure that both sides are
39:29
successful. And I think that was that
39:32
really I in all these four years that I
39:34
was we were under the contract with 120
39:36
water, I never heard a single time
39:40
mention change order. Anybody that has
39:43
bought software, they would always know,
39:46
well, that's not part of the scope. We
39:48
can do it, but that's a change order.
39:50
And I think that was refreshing to hear
39:52
that. But more than that, I think really
39:54
that's just a regulatory aspect. But I
39:56
think the support
39:58
weekly meetings, no vendor will do that
40:01
with you. You know where
40:02
>> it was a commitment to the outcome and
40:04
just saying are we aligned on the
40:06
outcome? Um what is it going to take?
40:08
And I do and I I know I'm like speaking
40:11
from from this this side too, but I'm
40:14
like we put a lot of emphasis on making
40:17
sure we understood the partners in that
40:19
state. Hey, who has reach? Let's make
40:22
sure that we understand who a the
40:25
chapter of AWWA in that state. Let's
40:28
make sure we're plugged in there. Let's
40:30
make sure we're plugged in with the
40:31
Rural Water Association, the SRF, those
40:33
things because
40:34
>> we the it was like the the tool isn't to
40:38
just be another it's not just supposed
40:40
to be another tool that lives by itself.
40:42
supposed to be something that everyone
40:45
can work can use as a baseline for
40:48
working together and becoming more
40:50
efficient not just with dollars or
40:53
compliance but across stakeholders. And
40:57
that's that's what I consider the new
40:58
the vision that Casey our CEOs share
41:01
with me you know before I came on board
41:03
is he has this vision where we're going
41:05
to have basically two products you know
41:08
one for the state and one for the water
41:10
system state can have LCR you know like
41:13
we talked about this morning more CCR
41:16
compliance module all on one place water
41:19
advisory whatever we want we have all in
41:22
one place
41:23
>> and on the utility sides you know we we
41:25
want to track all of their you know
41:27
water water quality you know whether all
41:29
of the sampling are they taking all the
41:30
samples or you know you totally needs
41:32
the tool as well to make life easy it's
41:34
a heavy burden on them you know with no
41:37
extra money no extra dollars and how can
41:40
we make it easy you know so all all of
41:42
the products we're talking about on the
41:44
state sides you know whether is asset
41:46
management you know just going beyond
41:48
LCRI you know taking care of the sample
41:50
sampling schedules the results giving
41:53
them a CCR generator tools you uh all of
41:56
these things on one side then
41:58
transferring over seamlessly to the
42:00
state dashboard and to the SIDV that's
42:03
the vision that Casey has at conveyed to
42:06
me and I know 120 was water to me that
42:08
was a game changer that's what we need
42:10
>> and that's why I decided to come over on
42:12
this side saying okay this is a time the
42:14
next two years I can really have my say
42:17
in how some of the system should be
42:19
designed how look and feel should be
42:23
>> and I can leave my mark in the water
42:25
industry when I do you know at some
42:26
point decide to retire I could feel good
42:29
about making a change on the regulatory
42:32
side and also on the on the on the data
42:34
size I was always been a fan of datam
42:36
like I said back to 1998
42:38
>> some some of the people might not know
42:40
but I went to same school as with Satya
42:43
Nadella who is a CEO of Microsoft he was
42:46
a year younger than me so I've been
42:48
involved with the data yeah
42:49
>> from the get-go from the 80s
42:52
>> yeah yeah that that's awesome and That
42:55
that is that is one thing I I just
42:57
learned about you too. That that is uh
42:59
that's that's amazing. Well, and you
43:02
know the impact that you were able to
43:03
have both as a regulator and now on this
43:06
side um I think I think is good for the
43:09
industry and just has will allow for the
43:12
amplification of the impact um to be
43:15
felt. And so um we're really um we feel
43:19
really honored to to get to bring you
43:21
over to this side to get to work
43:23
>> actually you know I'm glad that I got
43:25
this opportunity to be honest you know
43:27
it's like I said I wanted to be stayed
43:29
in the water sector I looked at you know
43:31
maybe going on the on advocacy side
43:34
maybe looking at joining like
43:35
organization like or AWA or any of this
43:39
you know advocacy or do something
43:42
>> on on the different side and this kind
43:44
of felt to me was a good place where I
43:47
can still I like to be involved in
43:50
thinking outside the box and you know
43:52
LCRI is a great example where I was
43:54
thinking outside the box and my my state
43:57
is in much better shape
43:59
>> than many other states you know uh you
44:02
know at this point at the juncture and
44:04
we have good tools in place so I wanted
44:06
to make sure that we continue to develop
44:08
those tools to make states lives easy
44:11
make water systems life easy and you
44:13
know and not duplicate data. We're
44:16
taking the same data and putting in
44:18
three different spreadsheet in three
44:19
different places. That's not the way to
44:21
do it. Yeah,
44:21
>> that served a purpose 20 years back, but
44:24
I think the time for us is to change and
44:26
look at a new par.
44:28
>> Yeah, couldn't agree more. Well, thank
44:30
you so much for joining me on this
44:32
podcast and um yeah, it was a pleasure
44:34
having you today. Um yeah, and thank you
44:37
to everyone who who listens in. Um, I
44:40
love hearing from you and um and I'm
44:43
excited for uh the next round of guests
44:46
that we have lined up and um yeah,
44:48
again, thank you Manny.
44:49
>> No, thank you. This was great. Like I
44:51
said, that was Thank you for the
44:52
opportunity and was really great to get,
44:54
you know, my perspective from both
44:56
sides, from the state side and the 120
44:57
water side. Again,
44:58
>> yeah,
44:59
>> I said earlier, you know, my my state
45:01
regulators that were co-artners with me,
45:03
they know I speak my mind. I've got
45:06
their interest at heart and the water
45:07
systems interest at heart. We're all on
45:09
the same mission
45:10
>> to make life better for our sector.
45:14
>> I love it. Awesome. Thank you so much.