Latest / The Bob Lefsetz Podcast / Derek Shulman

Transcript

Derek Shulman · The Bob Lefsetz Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sense Podcast.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: My guest today is Derek Trullman, known as the lead
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: singer of General Giant and the man who signed Bon Jovie,
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: Cinderella Slip, not so many other acts. Derek, good to
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: have you here. Nice to be here with you, Bob.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: This's as been a long time, absolutely so. Uh. There
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: was recently a fan video of proclamation at General Giant song.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: How did that come together? It came together actually from
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: my son at who um has been bugging me since
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: he was born actually about uh, he's uh in his
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: mid thirties. Uh, not having seen his father actually be
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: uh person on the stage and having seen me on
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: the other side of the business, and knowing that I
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: was a musician before I was I joined the dark
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: side of the business, as it were. And in the
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: last few years he's been seeing videos of me back
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: in the day forty plus years ago. And he said, why,
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: and it's bizarre that the fan base that we had
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: has grown exponentially. Um, you know it was it was
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: kind of a smallish, cultish fan base, but it's grown
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: exponentially on the internet. And he said, you should really
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: do a a reunion of some kind. I said, Noah,
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: his name is Noah. Uh, that's not going to happen.
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: Here's I've been all far. I thought, you do do
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. But he said, so you've got
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: a lot of fans, let's try this out. And I said,
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: go for it if you want to, and in fact
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: he got. He put the word out to the to
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: the fan base out there, and he had hundreds of
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: people sending their versions of proclamation. And he convinced me
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: finally to sing a line or two and the other
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: guys in the band who were alive, which general they
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: are except for our our drummer who passed away at
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: First Bubber quite a few years ago, to to include
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: our own little piece in the in the video. So
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: we did that. He put it together, my brother Ray
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: mixed the audio, and now I put this video up
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: and in in fact, Proud Magazine got involved and said this,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: this is great. We love this and and now it's
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: got a lot of views. And uh, it's kind of
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: interesting that that my band which I left and we
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: we broke up forty years ago, it's probably more um
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: well known if you like it, and more sort of
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: uh have have a bigger base when we did when
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: we were going at at the time, so it's it's
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: kind of bizarre, but it was his idea and he
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: put it together. And my brother Ray, who does a
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: lot of audio stuff for a lot of other bands
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: five point one mixes, he did the the audio mixes,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: which which was damned difficult by the way. So I
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: just said, yes, sounds like a good idea. So I'm
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: not gonna take any credit for it. Okay, why do
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: you think your audience is so large and larger than
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: it was forty years ago? Lots of lots of answers
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: to that question. I think that um that it's gonna
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: sound rite and it's gonna sound uh, I hope not pretentious.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: But I think the music held up it was it
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: was music which was authentic. It was music that m
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: I we did for ourselves. Rather than following a lead
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: or following another band and saying, let's play like this,
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: we were a band that put our own selves together
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: and put a band, put our backgrounds and our loves
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: of what kind of music influences together and became gentle giant.
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously I came from a I started being
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: in a band in the mid sixties when I was
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: at school, so we we went through a lot of
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: a lot of things. But I think that I think
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: that the music held up and has held up because
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: it's um I hate to use the word that it
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: sounds like a pretentious word, but it's not. It has
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: has It really does have authenticity and and it doesn't
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: sound like anyone else. We did never try to sound
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: like anyone else. Of course, we all had influences personally
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: of what we loved, and we draw dragged in those
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: influences into the band, and the band those influences were
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: started to a part if you like, and became gentle
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: giant okay uh today, and I know everybody hates being
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: labeled general giant was certainly seen as prog rock. Prog
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: rock has a bad name in general. In addition, rock
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: is not dominating the church. Is this a past say style? Were?
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: Is there room for prague rock in today's world? Bob?
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: You know what, We never considered ourselves trag or or
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: or rock, yes, but prague. No. We just did what
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: we did, and luckily and thankfully we did. We were
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: We put our band together at a time when there
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: was no titling there was no chiron saying this is
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: a kind of band you are. We were just a
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: band that put our music again, are our influences and
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: are who we were together? And um we made music
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: that we enjoyed, and we pushed ourselves musically, uh, personally
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: for each other. Um. And then we when we pushed
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: ourselves musically for each other, we took it on stage
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and hopefully one or two people would show up and
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: pay money, and we make a living for it. So
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: being labeled as a progue rock band, I don't think
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: we ever considered what we were. We were rocked because
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: we had we enjoyed rocking. We are our backgrounds. My
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: backgrounds certainly is in R and B and blues and
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: everything else, and my brothers was in classical etcetera, etcetera.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: But as far as being uh relevant today, it for
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: me it doesn't really matter. I don't care. But obviously
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: the way I've seen it, uh and the way that
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: what's transpired on the internet, it seemsonally it seems to
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: be um a little more relevant today than it used
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: to be actually in a strange way. And because it's
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: interesting to see the the who sent in the music
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: two for this video which you mentioned, and I would
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: say three cores, if not seven eighths of the people
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: that sent in their musical pieces who were were people
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: who are are under thirty. So we're not talking about
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: all farce going back and saying, you know, trying to
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: pick up the guitars and they're authritis getting in the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: way of them playing their their instruments. It was young
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: people listening to the music we made and enjoying it
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: and and and enjoying it for a reason. And I
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: guess the reason was because it was relevant to them.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: So I don't know if it's answering a question or
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: giving you an answer, but um, past I I don't
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: think so. I think that if it's it's the it's
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: the same as it It's the same as great jazz,
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: it's a great it's the same as great um dance music,
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: is the same as great musical, great classical music. It
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: stands the test of time. And I think from what
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: I see, I hope that our music has that stood
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: the test of time. Um, which for me is kind
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: of bizarre because I, as you know, I joined the
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: dark side of the business issue as we just as
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: you just introduced me to uh, and the interesting thing
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: that I've discovered and no, and really it's very very
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: interesting to me because, as you know, we've talked over
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: the years about what this businesses and who we are
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: and how we are how we get along in this
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: crazy world of ours, and right now it's the craziest time, um,
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: having done most things in the business. If you like,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: what people come back to, and this is me personally,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: what people will come back to for me is the music.
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: It's not about the business. It's not about record sales.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: It's not about who's bigger who's not. It's not about
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: you know, all the other means of hearing, the streaming
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: and this that, the other tiktoks and and it's etcetera.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: It's about the music. And when people talk to me,
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: it's not about bon Jovi or or or or slip
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: Not or Pantera or whatever. It's about what I did
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: when I was a musician. And that's very heartening for me. Actually. Okay,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: so how did you decide to give up being a
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: musician and go to the side. Well, that's another story
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: again because as I explained to you prior, um the
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: General Giant. We started the General Giant in but I
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: started my first group and when I was at school
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty six. Uh, and that was an incredible period,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: I have to say. Uh. My first group was a
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: group called Sigma Dupre and the Big Sound. I was
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: at school, my brother was at school. My older brother
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: was a school teacher. We put a band together and
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: we we loved R and B and blues and everything
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: else like most of the other classic rock bands of
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: today did. And we went on the road. And even
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: though we were I was at school, we went on
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: the road and worked nine days a week, literally getting
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: a fan base and eventually having a couple of very
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: big hits. Um. Those hits became uh, We're We're good
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: for us in certain respects, but became a millstone around
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: our next because we were expected to be a pop
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: band and stay in the same groove. So I decided,
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: we decided, I'll give you a long story and if if,
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: if it's too long, if it's too long, keep going.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: So um in nine, when we broke the first band
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: uf um, it was a decision that we were studied
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: by the fact that we were a pop band and
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: that and that really stopped his uh, you know, doing
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: something new and when we were playing to a an
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: audience who are eating scampionships, you know, and waiting for
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: the hits. That really kind of got to me more
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: than anyone. So I said, we don't want to do
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: this anymore. Thankfully, we had a manager. And this is
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: back in the day when managers believed in musicians. M
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: We had a manager that undertook to UH finance a
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: new project that we said we want to put together UM.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: And his name was Jerry Braun and I give him
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: full credit for this. Uh. He put money into our
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: pocket for weekly monthly salaries because he believed in us
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: as musicians. So we found three other musicians This is
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: myself and my two our other brothers who we want
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: who we wanted to do something again new. We didn't
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: know what it was, but it was wasn't going to
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: be what we were. We wanted to be the antithesis
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: of this pop thing which we got out of UM
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: and other bands were doing at the very same time
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: that I mentioned, UH, you know, bands like the Move,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: the Idol, Race, Moody Blues, Oh boy, there's that. So
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: at that period of time, the mid sixties to the
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: latest to the late sixties and the seventies, all in England.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: It was an incredible time and just I can't, I
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: can't describe how amazing it was. And then from the
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: in the mid early mid seventies, everything's changed, but it
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: was in UK where it was. It was so element
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: and so obvious. Anyway, so we became gentle giant. We
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: took about six six months in rehearsals and we found
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: this keyboard player called Carrie men Here who was a
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: recent graduate of the Royal Academy of Music in composition actually,
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: and Gary Green, who was a real blues player. I
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: mean he was you know, we came in whiled away at.
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: In fact, he was the very first we we we
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: we interviewed wed I don't know how many guitarists, maybe
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: thirty five, forty, and he was the very first one
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: that said can I tune up? So he got he
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: got a kind of a gold star next to his name,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and we went to a couple of drubbers. But the
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: bottom line is so we we spent about six or
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: nine months recording, rehearsing and writing and putting this band
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: together and putting our first and then going into the
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: studio and I think November of nine seventy with Tony
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: Visconti as this group called Gentle Giant. Uh. And it
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: was really an amalgam of different kinds of music, a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: different kind of influences that we came from and and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: and our new found friends slash um band members. That
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: became what Gentle Giant became. And it was a really
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: kind of the birth of a realization. If you like,
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: that's the first song of a song called Giant, and
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: that was where we were, and that was the first,
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: um the first recording of the ten year tenor career
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: of a bigger Gentle Giant. Yes, but we're leading up
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: to the question, how did you decide to pack it
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: in as a musician? Oh, yes, you did say that
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: well as a musician in UM so was all, wow,
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: was this amazing? And then we went through his again.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Bands go through this bands bands, and I think everyone
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: goes through a seven generations of band. If you like,
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: you're born, you're born, you're an ada lesson you come,
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: you become a young adult, you become an adult, become
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: middle aged, you become older, and you become old. We
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: became a little old towards the late seventies and I
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: just felt it creatively and even um the passion of
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: going out in front of the crowd. And I remembered
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: the last tour, the idea of going out and playing
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: the songs and recording. It was a whole It was
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: a whole sort of cycle of things. You record, you rehearse,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: your tour, your record, your rehearse, you tour. And and
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: as I said, that's what I brought up, my my prior,
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: a gentle giant life if you like, because I've done
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: it for fifteen years. And I remembered that we were
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: touring the USA again and playing Peoria or Wayne Wayne
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: Indiana or fourt Way Indiana should they say. And then
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in these kind of places held no no, um, no
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: sort of excitement for me. And when something feels like
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: a job, and it felt like we are going out
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: on a job, it really kind of feels like it's
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: time to stop. And I would say this to anyone,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: no matter what your job is. And I know most
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: people cannot do this, but the fact, the fact that
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: a creative person would go out and say, oh God,
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: we have to tour again, and okay, we have to
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: get together in Buffalo and play the Buffalo gig. You know,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: it was like, do we have to Yes, I guess
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: we have to do it because we have to make
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: a living. But when when you feel that way in
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the creative world, that's the time to stop because you're
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: not being creative. You're not you're not using any passion.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: It's it's like clocking in and clocking out. And that's
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: I kind of knew it, and I think some of
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: the other members knew that. It was like, Okay, it
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: feels like we're doing the same thing over and over
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: again unless we did something completely different, which I don't
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: think we were able to do. Other bands of our
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: ill like Yes and Genesis, were they were able to
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: take their music into a pop direction. We never could.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: So we felt like a job. And when it feels
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: like a job, we said that's it. Time to stop,
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: and we did. Okay, Well, was everybody on the same page.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: How long did it take to come to this conclusion?
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: As you say, you've been doing it fifteen years and
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: you're only thirty years old. Um, yeah, Two or three
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: of the band came to the same conclusion. A couple
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: of the other guys were not of the same opinion,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: but nevertheless, it was you know what, what I didn't
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: want to do, and what what I never want to do,
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: and what I think my brothers I never want to do,
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: and perhaps that the other guys in the band want
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: to do and wanted to do has become a parody
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: of who you were and who you are and to
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: rehash the same things that you're doing over and over again.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: So you know, it was a chapter. It was a
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: fantastic chapter, and they all are pieces of life, but
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: it was not something I wanted to go out and
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: do the same thing. And when if you again, when
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: it feels like a job, when it feels like you're
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: clocking in and clocking out in the creative world, for me,
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: you know, for me, it didn't work and I had
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: to stop. When you did stop, did you already have
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: it in your mind what you were going to do next?
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Or you just said I can't do this anymore, Bob,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I had no clue. I had absolutely no clue. I
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: knew I didn't want to do that any I mean,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I knew I didn't want to do the circus of
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: touring and this and that the other that I knew
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: I had the opportunity to to record, to be a producer,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: that didn't tackle my fancy either. I mean, I enjoyed
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: being in the studio and working with the guys, but
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: that really had no interest for me either. To be
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: locked into a room twenty seven which had no darkness.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: So for a year or so I had no clue.
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: I was lost, to tell you the truth. And then
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: a friend of mine, well, just to stay there. Since
• 18:02
  Speaker 1: you were on the road to earn a living for
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: did you have enough money to not work for a year?
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Believe it a lot, Thankfully I did. It's it's great
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: to say this, but we were lucky, I guess lucky
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: in the respect that um I took on the mantel
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: halfway through the seventies of becoming the Sequaisi manager uh
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: and and and the guy that understood what it took
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: on the other side of the defense, as well as
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: being part of the band. In retrospect um, it's a mistake.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: It was a mistake because you lose on one side
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: because you're not you're you're in the band, so you
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: can't give a real objective viewpoint on that big a manager.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: At the same time you're in the band, so you
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: can't give your attributes to being creative However, what it
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: did was give set me up for what I did
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: next in in a in a way that I think, um,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: did you know? Did me? Okay? So I was able
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: to make sure that the band had enough money again
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: because I was looking after the bunnies coming in for
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: the group, that we all shared it equally and I
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: knew where it was as opposed to going in other
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: people's pockets. So yes, I was able to get along
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and not work per se if you like, for a
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: year or so and wonder what the hell I was
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: gonna do. However, you know, after a year and a
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: half or whatever it was gonna get it was gonna
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: get haired. So thankfully, um, So to answer you a
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: question that that's exactly what it was. But I got
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: a call from a friend um in New York who
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: I knew from UK. He was a head of PolyGram International,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: who worked for Prisonless Records, who he was sign two
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: back in the day, and he said, have you ever
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: thought about joining you know, a record company? And that
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: was like an asthma to me. You know, what are
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you talking about? That's the enemy. But in certain respects
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: um as you as you as you put it, so
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: so uh you know clinically, Um, I had to make
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: a living. So I thought, well, you know, let me
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: let me see, let me give it a shot. So
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: I went up to New York. I was living in
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: California at the time, which I hated by the way. Um,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: and went up to New York and got offered a
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: job as a promotion man of all things and an
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: artist development, but promotion primarily. Um, but that's a grind
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: being a radio promotion person. Well, the reason I was hired,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: to tell you the truth, was because the guy who
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: was who hired me, Jerry Jassy, and operated to him. Um,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: he what the reason? Why are they? And this is
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: again getting back to the prior lifetime if you like,
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: It was because two of my biggest fans are the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: biggest fans of the group, were Lee Abrams and Jeff Pollock.
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: And Lee Abrams, of course, as you probably know, was
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: a consultant to one of the biggest radio station consultants,
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: and he was a big fan and and and Jeff
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: had had another consultancy for radio. And I guess Jerry thought, boy,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: I think if Derek can get to him, then then
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: we're all set. Well, of course that didn't work, but nevertheless,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I think that's why I got the gig um. But thankfully,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: I said, very quickly into something which I enjoyed more,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: was amusing. But that's the reason, to tell you the truth,
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: the reason why I got the gig in the first place. Okay,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: so then it transmogrifies into the music. What does that
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: look like? Well, it was. It was interesting because having
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: been on the road and been a musician, I knew
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: a lot of the musicians and bands and everything else.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: So a lot of people, managers and managers especially, would
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: come in and go to the A and R department.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: At that time, PolyGram was kind of a bit of
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: a mess. It was like it was they were still
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: trying to put Phillips and and and Seamens together to
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: make a real company. And in certain respects it was
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: kind of like a free for all and it was
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: there was no real sort of top down leadership. It
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: was more for me inside, and there was a group
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: of us saying, let's let's let's make this company. Let's
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: do something interesting here. And there was there was already
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a cattle. It was already a few bands in the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: in the in the roster like kiss like uh def Leppard, etcetera.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: There were just bubbling under and Um I was again
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: Jerry Brown, who was my manager at at for Gentle Giant,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: UM came in with my very first A and R thing,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: if you like, was he came with a new Ura
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Heat record. He didn't go to the A and R department.
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: He went came to me said, Derek, do you think
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: you can uh, you know you can convince and anyone
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: that's worth putting out. I said, let me hear it.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: And they had a couple of songs on the album,
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: uh It's One song was called That's the Way that
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: It Is and the other song was called on the Rebound,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: And I said, I think this could do well, And
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: in fact I helped them get a deal with the
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: fact that song became a decent science kit and put
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: them on the road again to being a a band
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: that was kind of meaningful in the US and sold
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: quite a lot of records. So that maybe think about
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: segging into the A and R world, which I did
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: very quickly. Said since then, so I started promotion but
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: effectively went into A and R virtually straight away. I
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: mean the six months a year I was in A
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: and R. But I still retained my you know, my radio,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: people with friends and everything else. So you know, I
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: was able to do all these things at the same time,
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: knowing the bands and musicians and everything else. The one
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: thing that one, the one thing I just remembered was
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: as is that the bands and the artists of the
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: managers who came and would remember me from the road
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: because I was. I was on the road until a
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: year or two ago prior to that, and they knew
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: that they couldn't say, well, you don't know what it's
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: like to do this, or here we are doing this
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: because I, yes, I I didn't know what it's like.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: I knew it was like to sleep in a van.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: I knew there was like to live in a to
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to fly in concorde. I knew it was like to
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: sleep on the floor before a gig. So the one
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: thing I had going for me, and I think those
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: managers and musicians appreciated the fact that I didn't come
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: from a world where where I was just hanging out
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: backstage wishing I was on the stage. Um, so I
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: think I could relate to the managers and artists in
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: a way that most other people couldn't. Okay, so how
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: did that lead to after You're Rye Heap what came next?
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: I believe it or not, bon Jovin, So tell us
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: the story of bon Jovi. Well, that was a that
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: was the first literally the first signing as a quote
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: A and R man that I had, And in fact
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: it's the man. The attorney of bon Jovi at the
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: time was a guy based in Philadelphia. And I've heard
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: a song on w A p P called Runaway. You know,
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: that was running at the same time as as as I.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: You know, I was listening to that and and I
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: heard this song run Away, and that's the point, that's
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that sounds great. And somebody introduced me to whoever it
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: was John Boovi, who was totally bon Jovi's second cousin,
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: who was at the power station he recorded. A guy
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: called Arthur Man. He was an attorney, and he said,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: you've heard I've heard, You've heard you like this song Runaway.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Can I bring us the demos? And he said, I
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: said sure, by all means. So he brought four demos
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: to me and he said John is great. Um, he's
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: putting a band together, um and um. I listened to
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: the demos and I said they sound pretty good. But
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: I really like runaway. I'd like to meet John. And
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: so I did, and he was. He was like, no,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: not too many other people I've met in my life.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: This is prior to him putting his band together. He's
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: still putting the band together. Um. I think that Dave
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: Sabo we just left, and I think Richie was just
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: coming in. Um. But John I met, and UM, I've
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: never seen anyone as young been so focused and driven.
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're talking about someone who, uh it was
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: very It was a novice. He's still working at the
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: power station, sweeping forward, so he said, which he wasn't.
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: By the way, Um, there's a lot of bubbles to
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: birst here. So uh, first away he was he was.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: He was as a synecure. He was, he was. He
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: was playing around with the board when told he was looking, etcetera, etcetera.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But nevertheless, Um, he got his job from his second cousin.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: John was was one of the most driven people I've
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: ever met in my life, even as a kid. Um.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And he said, I want you to meet my mom
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: and dad. So I went to Seaville, New Jersey and
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: met his mom and dad. Uh, and I did, and
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: I said, and they said look, if you're interested in
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: working with John, please take care of them. That's and
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: they really did. And And why do you think he
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: wanted you to meet his parents? Because I think he
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: believed in me, and I think he wanted to make
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: sure his parents felt the same way. And and and
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: you know, I believed in in John as a personality,
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: as a person that was completely driven to be the
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: b He already believed he was going to be bigger
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: than Elvis. And that was after one song Runaway. And
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: anyone who has that confidence and you look at someone
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: whose eye, you look at someone in the eye and say,
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: are they bullshitting me or not? He was not bullshitting me.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I knew that instinctively. I know that. And he wanted
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: to be the biggest And I thought, if he wasn't
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: that bad and he's that driven, I wanted to be
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: part of this um. So he was. He putting the
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: band together, and then a couple of showcases for me
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: and and the department. You know, one of one or
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: two of them weren't that great, but you can see
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: that John was. John had an appeal obviously for girls.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's a good looking kid with with hair
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: to the Max and Richie Sambora came in as was
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: a great double act for him. You you always have
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the yin yang on stage, so Richard became the sort
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: of yang of John's ying. Uh, and we we signed
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: to a deal. Okay, How hard was it to convince
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: the label? If at all? Not that hard? Well, not
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: that hard. I mean, I don't think there was. It
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: was a raw ra let's go for its going to
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: be massive, but I I felt it was and I
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: stuck with them, and I knew it possibly could be. Okay,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: were you bidding against anybody else or was problem? No?
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: I think there was interest in in Atlantic, some kind
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: of interest, but really not really anyone. And I don't
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: one thing I've never done in my life actually to
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: tell you what is go bit against it. I never
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: would build a bit against anyone else. If that goes on,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: I'm out. I don't do that. That's not what I do,
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: because then you're in a situation where your dad if
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: you do, adapt if you don't. And the bottom line
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: is you if you're bidding, people are gonna look at
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: you with a microscope and say, see I told you so.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: That would never have worked for me, And and thankfully.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: Most of the bands you've took you discussed that. I
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: can talk about other ones, and some of them are big,
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: big stiffs, but I won't talk about those. But they've
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: been generally bands that have been overlooked or under later
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: or whatever it is that no one really else is interested.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: And I saw their potential and you know it, having
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: come from my musical background, if you like, I've been
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: lucky enough to you know, on the scale of for
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: success in the failure. There's been plenty of failures, but
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: success is of weight a little more, and I've been
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: able to make a living. Okay, So you signed bon Jovie.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: What's the next step in terms of making music? Putting
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: the album together and then having going into the studio
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: with with Um, with Tony and and uh lads Quinn
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: who was the engineer, and putting the first album together
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: with Runaway as the first single, and it did fairly well.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But the most important thing, I think at the same
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: time was getting Doc McGee involved. And that's another story itself,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: doc Uh, and I know that there's lots of history
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: and lots of history written and rewritten and everything else.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: Doc what came into my office at the very same
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: time that I was looking at bon Jovi as as
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: a potential signing, and he was. He was managing Pat
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Travers at the time and trying to get the band
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: of the labeled interest in Pat Travers. But I saw
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Doc and again I saw someone who went to each
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: office and worked every office like they were the main company,
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: like they were they were running the company. As a boy,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: this guy is a smart dude. He's he's he goes
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: into every office and makes everyone feel like they had
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: their kingship. And so he came into my office and
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: he said, yeah, Pat Travis, And I said, Doc, you know,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Pat's great, But I mean, what who else you're working with?
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: I think it was some R and B artists. I've
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: thought this artist called bon Jovi and he's about to
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: make a record, I want you to meet him. And
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: at the same time, there was a couple of other
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: managers who were sniffing around, David krebs and and John Share.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: But I wanted Doctor meeting because I saw how he
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: was working every office and making them feel like they
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: were they were running the company. And that was important
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: for me. If I was party, party, party to do
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: party to this whole thing, it's a very bizarre thing.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: And I'm telling you that the truth, the sort of
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: truth of what's happened, what happens in what what happened
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: back in the day of how you had to work
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: inside as well as outside. I had John meet with
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: with Doc and it was love at first sight or
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: first first meeting, and they came to a deal. He
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: had to meet the parents as well, and Doc man.
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: It was the first manager a bon Jovi and the
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: first thing he did was say, do the album, but
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: get your ass on the road because right now you
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: look like a little girl with with with with you know,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: your purple type leather pants on. So he put them
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: on the road with the rat and Scorpions and god
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: knows what else is. And and to tell you the truth,
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: he was fantastic and he put them on the road
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: with bands that he want that he wanted and we
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: wanted John and bon Jovi to be the band that
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: with a rock with the great pop music and to
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: learn how to work that audience. So he was very
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: instrumental in in making Bone over the what they became. Okay,
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: so you make the first record you have runaway, you
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: re release in a better fashion now talk. The second record.
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: The second record was was a sophomore kind of flop,
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: if you like, in certain respects because they had to read.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: They had to write new songs. That you know, John
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: and the band had written some of the songs probably
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: over like the last ten years, so they had to
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: write some new songs. And we had to decide who
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: we would record and and produce it. Lance Quinn, who
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: had worked at the power station. Uh, he was there
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: and on the first record, he said, let's record it
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: in Philadelphia. So we did. And to tell you the truth,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: it was a bit of a disaster. Um, it was
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: really very the atmosphere was awful. Of songs were not
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: quite as good as the first album. And um it
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: was it was an okay album, but it you know,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: but it was not a great album. And and but
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: nevertheless it did okay. It was seventy degrees Paralyite, which
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I never agreed with the title. It was an awful title.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: The you know, the boiling point of I don't know
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: was John the boiling point of of of stone or something?
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: I don't know. Actually, to tell you the truth, it
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: was not my idea. Again, it was neither. It was
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: like John's John the vision, but the the recording was
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: a terrible process. And in fact I had a kind
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: of firelands and that was a process process it itself. UM,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: and and get it finished by by Tony actually um
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: and Tony Tony by Tony Bongiovi to mix it Um
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: who didn't want to do it, but he did because
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: he got point. But it was it was not a
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: very pleasant experience, Um. But it did the trick in fact,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: in that he kept him out there and John and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: Doc kept him out there working. It wasn't a stiff
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: it was. It was an okay second album. It was
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: a software kind of slumpy record, but he kept him
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: out there. And then and then we reassembled if you
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: if you were talking about bon Jovi's career, okay, we
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: we reassembled ourselves again after the touring. And I you know,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: I got to know um, Bruce Fairburn and Bob Rock
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: from from listening to a couple of albums and Bob
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: I was a fan of My health grew again goes
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: back to fans and groups and musicianship and everything else.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: And they were they I think they just don't love
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: a boy and Honeymoon Sweet, and I listened to those records,
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: and I thought, boy, they have a great sound, and
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: also the choruses and everything else were fantastic and everything else.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: At the same time, John and Doc and the band
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: knew that to go to the next level they needed
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: to have number one, a great producer, Number two songs
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: that would cut through the midst of the cut through
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: the world of rock radio and ao R radio or
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: whatever that meant. At the same time, MTV was was
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: the the big the big knocker in the house. Um
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: so I another story. So um I said, boy, you
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: know John, would you you would you think? What do
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: you think about getting someone to write songs with you?
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: And John being the pragmatist that he is and being
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: the driven person that they would do most things to
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: make sure he got there. He sa fine, who are
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: you thinking? Are you thinking about? And I said, well,
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: I got introduced to this guy, Desmond Child by paulse
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Alie and Jean Simmons who did who? And I had
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: learned like the year before they wrote Lick It Up.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: And I said, that's our kiss song, that's and I
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: and and and Paula. Jean said, you remember Desmond Child rouge.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: I said, yes, we were on Capitol together. Anyway, these
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: stories intertwined. This is great. So I said, this guy,
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: Desmond Child apparently is really good because kiss you know,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: Paul and Jean have told me that he's a great songwriter.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Why didn't you guys get together? And he said, fine,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: no problem, let's let's introduce me. So that we did,
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: and they got together and they wrote songs together, and
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: I think, so I'll just say the rest is history
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: because I wrote Living on a Prayer, you give love
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: a bad name, bad medicine, you know, etcetera, etcetera, and
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: bon Jovi and they went into the studio in Vancouver
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: with Bruce Fairburne and Bob Rock and Mike Fraser being
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: on tape off and they built the following despite the
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: fact that they were still, you know, on the road
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: with all these other bands supporting it. The one thing
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: that John was never afraid of, the band was never
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: afraid of, was playing. They toured and toured and they
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: that was the key. They didn't they didn't let up.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: They knew that they had to continue to build their
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: fan base, not just in North America, all over the world. Um.
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: So putting all these elements together, um as soon as
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: the album was done. Okay, the album was in an
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: easy process. And two did you realize what you had?
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: First question? Easy process? Yes, it was. It was the
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: most It was the easiest process we had. And and
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: and we we knew absolutely when it came when when
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: the album was mastered, absolutely hundred percent knew that this
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: we had it. We had something. This is going to
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: be a big, big, big hit. I knew it. We
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: all knew it. And then what you know, there's a
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: famous story that they had two key in the original covers.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: Did you worked at the label? What was the story there? Well,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: that's true, that's that's the fact. Actually we you know
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: that was there's a lot of that. We had all
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: the all the other people involved in in in the
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: company wanted to be part of this success. So we
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know who decided that this girl with a
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: pink bikini that ripped off was a great idea for
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: the title cut for the album cover, and we thought, boy,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: this is not a rock band. This is like I mean,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: you want Billy's Choaties to go down the tubes, this
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: is even better. Um So actually John and and John
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: was the one that said, holy ship, we can't do this.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: At the same time, there's about fifties to sixty thousand
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: units already pressed up in the in the plant. So
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: we held everything and to tell you to be honest,
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: John and Dog said, stop the presses. We have to
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: get a new a new cover. And John and I
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: think Martin Weiss when this this it went into their
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: little studo and John said, let's get it um a
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: plastic garbage bag and I'm gonna spray. The three went
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: wet on this garbage has put my finger across it.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Take a picture of that. That's the cover, and all
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: power to him because it was his idea and we
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: had to change things in the right and midstream, and
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: that became the cover. I thank god it did, because
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: the other one is a disaster or would have been
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: looked at despite the fact that music inside the the
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: LP as it was then it was great, but it
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: would have been viewed viewed like um, something we didn't
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: want the band to be. So yes that that happened
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: just as it was about to be released. Thankfully, we
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: put the brakes on right over the last second as
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: far as the the visuals were concerned. And I think
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: the first song out was bad name. I believe it was,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: and then Living on a Prayer was the second our
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: second track of them. Okay, so a little bit slower.
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: What happened you put out the record? Is it react immediately?
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: What's it like being at the belly of the beast
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: through the roof? I mean it was, it was there
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: were there are times in your life you know there
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: there's we all know there are there are there are
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: peaks and valleys. Uh and and I just remember number
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: one here in this album and knowing I knew that
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: this was it. I knew it. And when you heard
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: it on the radio and you saw it on MTV,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: we got Wayne uh oh, the videographers Uh anyway, the
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: guy who who does all the best videos to do
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the video which looked like it was on you know,
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: he was it was. It was playing in front of
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: twenty thousand people when he was already playing in front
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: of two thousand if if that when he when he
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: was doing it, the video looked amazing. The song went
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: on the radio, it immediately became a gigantic hit immediately,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: and the album just blew into number one. It was
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: just it was it was like it was like something
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: that you you rarely see it in your lifetime, and
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: it was. It was a spectacular time for everyone, for
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: the company, for the band, for Dark and everyone else.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: And to tell you the truth, for me because I
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: believed in him as as someone who wanted this so badly.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: I knew he had the potential of talent to do
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: what he wanted to do and and to see it
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: through with other people helping him. So you know, again,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: it was wasn't just John, although John is an incredible
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: quick learner, and boy does he ever. You know, he's
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: like a sponge who who takes it in and become
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: it becomes him. But he had all these other people
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: behind him to make this probably one of the biggest
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: albums uh rock albums of all time. Okay, now agiven
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: At this time, the A and R people had a
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: piece of the record. Did you have a piece of
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: bon Jovi's records? Yes? I did? Okay, that's great. You
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: still you you still get paid on him? I No,
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: I don't, because I know I don't. I wish I did. Boy,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: that was you know. I'm not sure I could be
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: locked down somewhere else, I guess in a cruise ship.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: No I don't, But at that time, yes I did.
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: I was why did the royalties end because I quit
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: the company? Okay, so it was only long you were there. Okay.
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you're working with Cinderella. How do
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: you get Cinderella? Uh? Cinderella was another man from the
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia area, New Jersey, Philadelphia area. UM. I think it
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: was introduced to me by again the same manager at
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: the same same agent. But again John Uh you Tom
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Keefer again, these things input into twined and I can't
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: put his hind lines. It's very mud put time lines
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: in between who said what, when and whatever? But I
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: remembered Uh. And Larry Maser, who was a manager, contacted
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: me and said, boy, you did a great job with
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: bon Jovi. This I've got this band, Cinderella, and I've
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: heard about them because Arthur Man, the the Philadelphia lawyer,
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: said there's got another great band out of the area.
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: I went down to see Cinderella in a little club.
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: I camera what the club was, and they weren't that good.
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: To tell me the truth, Tom was fantastic. Tom was
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: an incredible front man, and Uh and Jeff I think
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: it was a good guitarist was great. But the other
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: two guys, I but they didn't hold up. I said, Larry,
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: you know you've got someone in the front there. That's great,
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: but you have to replace the other two guys. And
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: I've heard And at the same time he gave me
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: Tom's I don't know how many uh demos he did.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: There must have been at least seventy five demos. I
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: mean we're talking about I mean prolific writer. Um. And
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: I listened to the demos and I would say thirty
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: of those were worthy to put on an album. First album.
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: So I said to Larry, put a great band together,
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: and I'll put I'll give you a deal, um. And
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: he found two other players that fitted the mold that
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: I think we're worthwhile for Tom to front, and I
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: did the deal. There was no one else involved. I mean,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: it was almost like me doing something side unseen. But
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: I listened to the music that Tom was writing and
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: put put. I signed the band to PolyGram and got
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: Andy John's of all people, to to produce that album,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: which was a treat in itself to say the least.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: But that was that was another that's another story, um.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: But anyway, that first album, I think it was nice songs. Um.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: At the same time, then bon Jovis slippery, and what
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: was was was higher charts that came out literally a
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: little time after uh some people and wet and blasted
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: into the charts as well. So I was, you know,
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: I had two of the two of the top five
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: albums that I discovered. I was. I was hosh yet. Okay,
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: A couple of questions. Anyone ever debate the name Cinderella.
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Did Keifer come with Cinderella? I think it was yeah.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I think it was yeah. I think it was Key
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: forer And and Larry, you know, And I didn't dispute.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I think I thought it was fine. I thought you
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: could play around with it, you could play around with
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: the the visuals. I mean we did on thee the
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: first couple of videos. They were funny, they were there
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: were you know, they were kind of like um. In fact,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: I got John involved in one of the videos. Again,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: this is the old MTV time when when it was
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: just was breaking a record, was getting on MTV and
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: getting on the radio, and then you're after the races. Boy,
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: that was the time when the jigsaw puzzle was five pieces,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: not five thousand. Well put okay, there was never really
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: another Cinderella album. What happened there? So they had, They
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: had nice songs, and they had the follow up, which
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: is that did well to an Accountmber the damn name
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: I wish I could. That was they had two really big,
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: big albums and then um, I left, I left Polygraphs
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: to run actual uh and and they they still continued
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: their career. John of course he went on too. He
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: went to the New Jersey. Okay, but a couple of questions.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: They said that Tom lost his voices. That true, that
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: was probably after you were there, Probably that was, yes
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: he did. Yeah, I'm still friends with Tom. Tom's a
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: great guy. I mean, he really is a wonderful guy
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and a real talent. And and the truth is that
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: we were we we locked onto the MTV hair thing
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: where and Tom Brady was a blueser and then he
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: re loved he loved Louse and the whole sort of
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: the blues thing. But yes, he said he lost his voice,
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: his um his he had nodules on his his um
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: vocal cords for quite a period of time he was
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: living in Nashville. They told me that he said he
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: was afraid that he wouldn't be able to sing, but
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: he got them back and then he's still in a
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: great voice, which I'm happy about. Were you were you
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: still a PolyGram when they made Newton bon Jovi made
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: New Jersey. I was literally walking out the door when
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: he was making New Jersey. Okay, from my viewpoint, I
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: love Slippery when wet, but bon Jovi, in my viewpoints,
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: never equaled that. And I bought I even bought New
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Jersey when it came out. Was disappointed. Do you have
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: any inside it? Once again, do you believe you were
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: the special sauce? What was going on? Boy? But that's
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: if if I thought that, then then uh, you know,
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: if I think that or thought that in any form
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: in any way, you know, then somebody shoot me in
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: the head for God's sake. Um. No, you know, I
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: was certainly intrinsic, I really was. But everyone it wasn't
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: just me. It was a company, it was Dark, it
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: was it was the agent, it was John himself, it
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: was a band, it was everything. Um. But certainly we
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: had a chemistry together to make Slippery as as big
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: and as good as it was. Uh. When I left,
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I left maybe there was a
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: little lack of you know, in intimacy with a label.
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean I can't say for sure.
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: Maybe John was getting a little uh bored. I mean
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: he's working his ass off. I mean they do it.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: They were, They toured and toured, but I was there
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: when they started it. But I wasn't ready there when
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: they finished. I was my My next step was was
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: well before we get your next step? Uh, when they
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: would be making these records. Since you were a musician
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: and you have experience, to what degree did you weigh
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: in on the material in the studio not only say
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: yes or thumbs up, her thumbs down, say well, you know,
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: should we change this, should we try this? I actually
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: did uh quite a lot on on some albums, not
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: so much the bunge of the ones, because I was.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: I was there in the studio for sure in Vancouver
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: with with I mean Bruce Fairburn there was a great
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: was a great musician, and Bob Rockett himself as a
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: great musician. You know, I'd listened to certain things and
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: they say what do you think? What do you think?
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: I wasn't one of the the pipe up and say I
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: think you should do this, because you know, we had
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: enough talent in the room to to h to know
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: what was best and and uh and say yes or
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: no to. However, with Cinderella, I was a little more proactive,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: but in both their live show and as well as
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: writing UM and when they to give you an insight
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: about live when Cinderella first went out, because their record
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: came out and they weren't really a live band yet,
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: and suddenly they became. They were all over MTV, they
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: were all over the radio, and had never done real gigs.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: They played played a few club shows of Ladelphia, and
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: they went out there and I can't remember who they
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: went out with, but they weren't very good. And I
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: went back to Larry and went back to the band
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: and said, you have to videotape every damn show and
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: take them back to your back. Take to take them
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: back to the bus and watch these shows and ask yourself,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: will you pay twenty dollars to see this band? Watch it?
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: You've got to watch this. And I have to say
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: they took it to heart, and they watched themselves and said, boy,
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: I made a mistake there, that that was that that
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: choreography was awful. I should be doing this instead of that. UM.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: So you know, they listened, So I said do that.
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: At the same time, you know, I'd sit down with
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: Tom and and in fact, um, okay, a little bit
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: of uh inside which which there's a song called um
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: whatever it was, but I co wrote it, and I
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: to take this. I said, Tom, you've got to do
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: this because this sounds better. And I co wrote a
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: couple of songs with Tom because I knew that sometimes
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: he'd ramble on a chorus or verse sorry verse at
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: a B section and didn't get to the course quick enough.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: So I'd worked with him on on a musical level.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: I said, you know, he tried this, Court's try to
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: stepping up a fourth, etcetera, etcetera, And he was very
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: he was very open to that and loved me being
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: part of that. So need did you take credit for that? No? Okay,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: So tell us how you end up going to add
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: co Well, uh, that comes a little story. So you know,
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: during the period of PolyGram, I had bon Jovi had
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: you know, I also at the same time I had
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: another band, Kingdom Come, which went it blasted into the charts,
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: into the top five because I gave Bob Rock his
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: first production. And you know, everyone screams and yells it's
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: alleged Zeppelin. You know, coffee band etcetera, et cetera. Will
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: you know what? It was perfect first time? And and
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: and the band it was it was all over the radio.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: And at the same time I was working with Dexis
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: and Tiers of Fears, etcetera, and worked with some other
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: a couple of other bands which were ultimately successful in
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: different fashions. So I guess I was hot shit as
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: they were, you know, at that time. So and I thought,
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: you know what, I'm looking at the people who run
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: these companies, I'd like to try it. I really want
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: to do something like this. Um and I they PolyGram.
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: They said, we'll give you, We'll give you mercury, We'll
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: give you this to thing. And I've already done eight
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: eight six seven years. I said, I want to try
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: something new. And I got wooed by Geffen, by Irving,
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: by by you know, all the players involved. Okay, did
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: you put it out there or did they find you? No?
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: I I decided that I was going to uh To.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: I wanted to run a label, you know. I wanted
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: to see what it was like and to put a
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: team together. Because I put the team together, I've done.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: I put teams together as a band. I put teams
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: together in working records and and and having the right
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: managers are the right agents. I don't wanted to see
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: if I can put a team together to run a company.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: So I my my lawyer, Um, yeah, put it. I
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: put it out this and I said, I'm going to
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: resign to PolyGram. They did not want me to resign.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: They offered me to be a label head of something else.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And I you know, even though it would have maybe
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of money, I would have kept the points
• 54:30
  Speaker 1: for Bob Joe, the points of Cinderella, etcetera, etcetera. But
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: that for me, and it's this is gonna sound bizarre.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: I think to a lot of people. It wasn't about
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: the money. It was about the challenge and it was
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: about the passion. So you know, okay, I said, I
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: gave up a couple of points. Okay, let me do
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: something new. It's the same thing as as I talked
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: to you about when I was on the road. It's
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: time when when it feels like I'm gonna do the
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: same thing with the same people again and like a
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: job and find the next Bongovi or the next syndrome
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: or the next No, let me try something new. So
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to try something new and just
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: to run a label was something new. So I got offered, uh,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: you know, to run a couple of companies. But I
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: met was Steve Ross and Warner Music. A couple of
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: times I met was Armored and Dog first and then
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Steve Ross, and he was the one. He was one
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: guy that I was no suppressed by. And the reason
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: and the stories are are I can give you hundreds
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: of stories about why and what and everything else. And
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: that was yet the coffin. You know, they somebody around
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: to having dinners with hookers and dog knows what else.
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: That wasn't what I was. It wasn't who I was.
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: It was like, come on, I want to run something,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: which is something for me. They didn't know who I was.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: But Steve Ross sat with me and he just come
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: back from the Bahamas, I think, and we talked and
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: he said he asked me what I did, what I
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: wanted to do. And they're very kind of like easy
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: going fashion. And again these are little little vignettes I
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: have in my head. We had a basket of little
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: uh raphia, you know, knickknacks, you know, like you buy
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: for a dollar in the Bahamas, you know, and I said,
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: those are cool. Where you get there? He said, I
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: just came back to the harbors for a meeting. He said,
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: you want one, just a little dollar thing. The fact
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: that you just gave me this little dollar knickknack and
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: he was it just it got to me. I thought, well,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: that's he didn't offer me. You know the play, you know,
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: the private jet to this. Yeah, he said, you want
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: this little dollar knicknack. And obviously you have worn in
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: music at that time, you had you know, you had Warners,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you had Electra, you had Atlantic, you know, dog and
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: Armored and uh and and but that incident and and
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: his vision of having entrepreneurs in the company, somebody who
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: could do something without being told what to do, and
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: could make his company a profit if you like, and
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: do also do well personally financially. It was his. It
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: was his m O. But I love the way that
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: he presented what it was. Of course, with more of
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: these was spectacular company at that time. But that incident
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: in particular was one which I walked away. I thought,
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: now he didn't have to do that. He could have
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: said I'll fly you to so and so, I'll do
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: this and not the other. But he gave me this
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: little knickknack and I walked away. I thought, well, you
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: know that that kind of did it for me. And
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: so I said, I'd like to resurrect this this uh
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: this company that has been dormant at Co Records, and
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: and um it's a short fine. I mean, let's go
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: for it. Uh. Dog was a little if you're about that,
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: but that's neither hit nor there. Doug was if he wait, wait,
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: wait that comes up. WoT Doug was if he because
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: Doug was iffy because he saw this guy come into
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: this company that had that had all these successes of
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: PolyGram and at the time Atlantic was it was was
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: kind of like in there, they were kind of in
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: a low period. And I believe I think that potentially
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: possibly he thought I was coming in as a replacement.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: That was so far from my my, so far far
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: from my my uh my thought process it was it
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: was beyond belief. But I believe that he was a
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: little threatened by by coming in to being a head
• 58:32
  Speaker 1: of at CO alongside Atlantic Records. So um, so he
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: was a little iffy about me taking on at CO
• 58:40
  Speaker 1: company and putting a team together, etcetera, etcetera. But you know.
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: That's that's another story which I can uh embellish, but
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: we got along ultimately, you know, uh in the way
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: that I guess one should. Okay, so you're now an AVCO.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: You have the Rembrandt, you have a hit, you have Piantera.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: So what's it like they're running your own company? The
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: first okay, the first uh two or three years fantastic, amazing. Um.
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: You know, I was given free rein um the first year.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: Obviously you had to build a team, and I kind
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: of stole the best people from PolyGram because they were
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: kind of like going through there there there's some maculations
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: of being bought or wherever. Um. I got a really
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: good team together. Um. I was lucky enough to have,
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: you know, have a couple of pretty decent size hit
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: straight away, um, Pantera being one. And in fact, the
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: funny story about Pantera was, I was going to sign
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: into PolyGram, but I knew that I was leaving, and
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: so I said to the attorney at the time, who's
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: no longer with us, can you wait until I'm whispered
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: in his ear? Um, And I signed them to to
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: told COO and and Pantera was was a huge hit
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: out of the box and Dog and this is a
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: story about dog. Actually, UM, he didn't know the Pantera was.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: He thought it was some kind of hip hop, he
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: really did. He thought it was some kind of like
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: is it is this a new dr Grey Um production?
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: And of course it wasn't. But it was great for
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: the first two or three years. Then UM in the
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: fourth start of the fourth fifth year and wherever it was,
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: I started losing. I realized I started losing perspective of
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: what I was in it for. I came into meetings
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: and I had my general manager. The company became bigger.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: We we we were just a rock lay we we.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: I took on the mantle of of Ruthless Records. Of
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: all things we did, we had this a couple of
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: very big hits on Ruthless Um, which is a hip
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: hop as you know, Ruthless Records, so Jerry Hella and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: it was some pop records. And I remember one thing
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: in the particular again these little points of career, career
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: development and why you did things ways and do things.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: I was sitting in my general manager's office and UM,
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: I heard the song um on the radio. UM. It's
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: called Sincerely Yours by um Uh. I'm black and sorry,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: I'm it's a long day today. But I since, I said,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: I said to Harold Harry Palmer, Harry, what I like
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: the song? What is this? I've heard it before and
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: it looks at me like I was joking, I said.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: He said, it's hards It's no, it's it's it'sn't top
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: number one. That was a turning point for me, you know.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: And I went home and I thought, boy, I've lost
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: perspective of who I am. I was wearing a suit,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: you know, and I and I thought, I just lost
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: I'm losing I'm losing Derek. I'm losing Derek Shulman as
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: as as someone who loves music, loves being involved in
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: the music business. And the last couple of years we're
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: not that good. I didn't like it, and I decided
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: to um, I decided to or quit. They didn't want
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: go wait wait wait wait wait? Are we were writing history?
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: Didn't Doug sort of push you? He was He was
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: an appreciate, big time big When I was in Russia,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: absolutely he offered me co chairman because he wanted Sylvia
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: own in there as well. Buddy, I was. I was
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: up there at the same time. Now, I've not read
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 1: writing history. Um, there's a lot of intrigue going on
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: because time Warner was was involved. But Dog was certainly, uh,
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: very much afraid that I was, you know, doing getting
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: in his way. He's taken he's taken a lot of
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: he's taken a lot of power away from Bob Bargado
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: and that team there. Um, but it kind of drifted away. Yes,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 1: he certainly wanted me a way out of there, but nevertheless,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: I had a contract that I had a company. However,
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: at the same so it was so he we we
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: met when I came back from Russia, and when it
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 1: when I was out of the country. Um, he tried
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: to do have a coup, but it didn't quite work.
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: So I came back and he said, well you could
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: eat chair can you can eat co chairman? You've got
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: X number of points and everything else. As a dog,
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: I'm out of here. They kept me there for another
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: year and a half actually, so I said, no, I
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 1: don't want to do this. It was the same thing
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 1: as I did when I said, you asked me about
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: leaving Gentle Giant. No, it was it was it was
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: not the money. I didn't want to do it. I'm
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: over see you later. So no, yes, dog was certainly
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: it's dog was certainly trying to get rid of this
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: this guy who maybe you know on the on the
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: prowl to get his job. But nevertheless, um when he
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: offered need to be the co chair of the with
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Sylvia and and and get lots of points and lots
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: of money and x x x, and I said, no,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: I'm out of here. My my attorney with apeshot at me.
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: So what are you talking about? So I'm done, I'm resigning.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: They wouldn't let me go for a year and a
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: half because I had a contract, so I had to
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: literally thing there and work with Irving on on some things. Uh.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: But it was really kind of like a sidecure, you know.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: I was not allowed to go anywhere. It's like an NBA,
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: I feel like. But I had to be a part
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: of the Water group music group. So you asked me
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: how it was the first three or three and a
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: half years, for four years or great? Last two we're awful?
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 1: And you were working with Irving on what with giant thing? Yeah? Giant? Yeah,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: we we did. We did something together on a giant.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: I put some records together. But it was really I
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: was really working through a contract, but I was with
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Warner Music effectively. Okay, so your contract runs out? Then
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: what then? Um? I took a time out, UM six
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: months and you know again you you decide, you know
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: what what is it you want to do? I mean running,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: running a big corporation and being looking at myself in
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 1: the mirror with a suit and listening to something on
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: the radio that I didn't didn't even know belong to us,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: regot to me, and I tore a suit off myself
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: and put put shorts and T shirt back on and said,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: the hell, I gotta get back to big Derrek again. Um.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: And about six months into not sure again what to do.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: Thankfully I had enough to live on and we were
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: not financially strapped, and I was living in New York,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: my wife and I had two kids in school and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: everything else. Um. I got a call from an old friend,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: um Case Vessels at road Run Records, and he said,
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: what are you doing? Not much? I'm deciding what to do?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: He said, would you mind? Um we meet And because
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: I you know, I've got this label in in so
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Ho we were doing. We've got a couple of good
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 1: metal acts. But I'd love to see the company become
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: a big label. Okay, let me see what you've got.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 1: So I I met with CASA and new case from
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: from Europe. Over the years, I knew him when he
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: worked for our c A and and I met with him,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: and I saw him so the people in the office,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: and at a time, he was he was trying to
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: build a label, uh, kind of an old purpose label.
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: He had a dance label, he had a hip hop label.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: He had this and that and the other. But I
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: looked inside of the company, there's all these kids with
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: like tattoos and and uh and piercings and god as well,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: this is a rock label. That's the case. You're you're
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: you're doing something. You're spending money on all these other things,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: and you've got kids in there and who love type
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: of negative or or or um, you know, fear factory,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: and you're trying to break this's hip hop stuff and
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: and salt and pepper also or some some other thing
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: from another dance label. Or you have to get rid
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: of things of focus on what you do best. So yeah,
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: and I don't think he understood that he had a brand.
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: So I kind of h for a year. I kind
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: of consulted under the Radar and became the consultant to
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: get rid of some of the stuff that chaff from
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: the wheat. And then it became president of road Runner
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: Records UM. And I really enjoyed that because it was
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: to focus on what that was and what it could be.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: Was was a lot of fun because it was an
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: independent label. It wasn't run by a board of directors.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: We went whereas you know, Time Warner and that whole
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: situation there was became a nignment when it was war
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: in music group. It was great when it became Time Warner,
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: which again is another story entirely. That's when the dog
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: thing and Markota were and Fuchs and everything else became
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: became a best But this is the whole thing, a
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: new independent company that was run by this guy at
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: Case Vessel as he wanted it be to be a
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: big powerful label, but to keep it's uh, it's um
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: to keep whatever he had. I don't think he even
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: knew what he had, because his love was more a
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 1: Wagner than than a cold chamber or and or you know, slipknot.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: He hated that stuff. But I saw what he had
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: in the company and the people who were who he tired,
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: and I said, this is what you got to do.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: Focus on what you do best. So I became president
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: of road Runner and it was a great time. How
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: did you signed slip Not or was slip Not already signed?
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: No slip and I was a signed. What I did
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 1: was was again number one, move away from the stuff
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: that he he thought could make a popular company popular
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: and focus on what was best. And the people there
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: were great, They were fantastic. They were really passionate people,
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: passionately because it would work twenty four hours to seven
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: to get the rock stuff gone. Um. I think the
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: biggest breakthrough, yes it was was number one getting cole
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: Chamber and Fear Factory to a different level. Uh. There
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: were bands that had already been signed by Monty Connor,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: you know, and it was a great A and R guy,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: and there's some very good people in there. But I
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: brought in a guy called Dave A Lonco from Marcia
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: as a head of promotion because promotions still mait meant
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: something in those days radio promotion. Um. And and then
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: I think that Monty and myself brought in Monty brought
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: in a slip Knot together with me, But I knew
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: when I saw Slip Not play, he said, what do
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: you think? I thought. I looked at them and I
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: felt the same way as they did with pan Terra.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: I knew they had him. They were never going to
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: be on MTV, they were never gonna be on on
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: the radio, but boy they could play the fans all
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: over the damn world. They were. They were purely fan based,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: you know. I said, this is the band we're going
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: to spend all lout the money on. This is a
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 1: green light band. And of course it went. The first
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: album went to the races, it became huge, and that
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 1: made the company, I can in serve respects, made the
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: company take a big step into the big mainstream of
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: rock label, sort of independent rock label. And then the
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: biggest next step if you like, and then probably the
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: probably the worst step and the best step again was
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 1: uh spreading the the spreading the core from the hardcore
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: metal world into a more kind of um melodic, bigger label.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: And in that respect, why I signed, why I brought
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: in Dave Lanco as it had a promotion, was to
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: get some of the bands that we had signed on
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: the radio. For instance, um Uh Fear Factor did a
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: song called cars and they got on the radio, type
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: of negative, got a song on the radio. But we signed.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: I signed a band called Nickelback. Uh. Ron Berman had
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: brought in several tapes and nickel Back was one of them.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: And I kept listening to this song UH on the
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: first album and I kept playing and I kept playing.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: I said, this guy is a great writer. Who who
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: the is it? And Ron saidness, a guy put Chad
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Kroeber and he's got a brother and it's a band
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: called Nickelback. And I said, let tell me about them.
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: So he told me about that when we when to
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: see them in Vancouver. UM and they were fantastic writers,
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: and we we signed them and the first album UH
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: was had had the black Again. I'm sorry, I'm lacking
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: on on tracks and everything else. The first album did
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 1: very well with that with the first track that we
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 1: put out, you know Day was able to get tons
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 1: of airplay, and and then they put together the second album,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 1: which is again another milestone in I guess my career.
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: If you're like Silver Side Up with how You Remind Me?
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: When you hear that song how You Remind Me? I
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 1: knew as soon as I heard that that was going
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: to be an absolute home run smash, no matter who
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: did it, how how how it was done, and of
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: course Dave got it to the top of the charts
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: and Nickelback became massive. It made a lot of money
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 1: for the label, and and it became something of a
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: millstone round cases neck and perhaps mind because unfortunately Case,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: having just seen been part of a little company that
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: did look very well in a little world, suddenly open
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: up to become a gigantic uh label that took a
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 1: lot of income, and he wanted more of it. And
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: those kind of albums and those kind of songs come
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: along once every ten years, they don't come along every
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: damn six minutes. Uh So trying to look for the
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: next one and spending money to do that, it was
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: the wrong direction for the company. And ultimately I it
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: wasn't right for me, It wasn't right for Case and
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: he the company became There was a lot of things
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: that happened to the company and that put me off
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: being part of it because he was going he didn't
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: he did. He made a mistake in Europe by um
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 1: putting in the company in in a financial scrap in
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: North America, and that stopped me being able to do
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: what I could do in North America. I said, case,
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: this is not gonna work. So again I said, I
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. And and he took he had
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: to sell the company. Uh and you know it a
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: fairly good profit, but certainly not what he was what
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 1: he should have been worth when it was done. So
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 1: that was that was the roadrunner world and the road
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: running days, which are great for the most part, really were,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: they were fantastic. And since then I've been kind of consulting, uh,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: you know, various labels and and and dialing about and
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 1: and doodling and becoming an all fart. Okay, why does
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: everybody hate Nickelback? I I think it's. To tell you
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: this truth, I don't think they do. I think it's
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: a guilty pleasure for most people. But I think that
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: it's it's the it's the incarnation of corporate rock, as
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 1: we all know and you know what, yes, it is,
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: but you know, so is a lot. I mean, I
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: think corporate rock is you know, corporate corporate rock is
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: is um is part of what we're doing. Look, corporate
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: rock is everywhere. I mean, I think TikTok and YouTube
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: and everything else's corporate rock. As well, So I think
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: it became the it became the sort of target for
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: for all things that were bad. There were the man
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: if you like, which, which of course it was to
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: a certain degree. But nevertheless, uh, it certainly was not
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: something that people disliked when they bought it. And they're
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: not a band that people don't didn't didn't not like
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: when they were going. And it's still you know, there's
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: still around, and they still write good songs and and
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's funny because when I was there, they
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 1: weren't the sort of target of of being the most
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: uncol band of the world. You know. It's the same
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: as bon Jovi's the most uncool guy in the world,
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: you know, so like he cares. You know, uncool doesn't
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: mean anything, doesn't mean ship. You know. Sorry, I don't
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: believe in cool, were uncool? I believe in and And
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: the first thing is do what you do, do what
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: you do best, and if it works, it works, if
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: it's done done. Okay. Wait, I just got in here
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: that you don't believe in what being uncool or cool? Okay, Okay, Now,
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: while people with this turn of the century, that's when
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 1: how you remind me came out two thousand one two
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: was really big. Uh. While all this was going on,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 1: we all the crazy you know, all the corporate stuff
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: happened in the nineties with Warner etcetera. But then we
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 1: have the disruption of Napster. Everybody's bit about stealing music
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: and everyone's bitching about Nickelback, but they don't realize that
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: hip hop is dominating the internet correct, and hip hop
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: gave it away for free with mixtapes, and hip hop
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 1: was on SoundCloud, such that if the turn of the decade,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 1: when streaming really becomes big with Spotify, suddenly it's all
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: hip hop. Okay. As someone who has made his bones
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: and really understands rock, A, is there a future for rock?
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 1: Is there a place for rock today? And be does
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: it have to be adjusted to regain market shure to
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 1: use a corporate term. Well, is there a market for rock? Yes,
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: of course there is. I mean all these big festivals
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 1: all over the world which are nonexistent right now. Of
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: course in this say and age, um, they're all headlined
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: by rock bands. However, you know, these are rock bands
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: that made their made their mark in the seventies, So
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: I mean they're gonna be dying soon. Um, so yes,
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: it's a it's a gigantic marketplace. I don't think the
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: hip hop world and the pop world and the YouTube
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: world and the TikTok world can confill that gap. But
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: certainly as far as a live uh music business is concerned,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: it's it's it's rock driven, of course it is. But nevertheless,
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: on the on a different level, you'd be surprised. And
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: I I'm surprised and and and I'm surprised that the
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: world of hip hop um is actually a lot more
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 1: musical and musically musically diverse then most other world, most
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: out of a business is concerned. And I'll give you
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: a case in point. Um. I just had a gold
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: record presented to me by a band called Ron the
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 1: Jewels um who who have has a song which is
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: a song called Legend has It which is the least
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: song on Black Panther. They sampled one of gentle giant songs.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: And that world has gone back to listening to some
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: of the music which was authentic. I guess the seventies
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: Prague music believe it or not common and and the
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: guys and roots, they're all fans of music, rock music
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: of the seventies and and progressive music. Actually, that's anit
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: very interesting fact. That very is very interesting sidebar that
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 1: I don't think, no, not, not many people know about.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: They're the most musically interested and interesting people that are
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: around actually in some respects. So to ask you the
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: question about rock being a viable of course it is
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: right now, it isn't because it's it's all about live
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 1: and as far as streaming is concerned, you know, I
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: see that people are piste off that they're not not
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: streaming and and and there, and Spotify is uh dining
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 1: a legg is becoming this vilified kind of guy. That's bullshit.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, you know, it's it's silly, you know what,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: you know, because back in the day, I was thinking
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: when I was reading about all the stuff people complaining
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: that he's he's a greedy funk and all that stuff,
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: you know. And I'll go back to the my my
• 1:19:07
  Speaker 1: beginnings in the in the music business when I first
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: got a deal, and this is I'm gonna take myself
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 1: all the way back now to sixty seven um as
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: Simon for in the Big Sounds. We were we had
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: a great following, we were playing our assets off, we played,
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: We played triples and quadruples if you've heard of them.
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: You played an afternoon show, you played an evening show,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 1: you played a long nighter, and then you literally do
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 1: these these shows all over the country, all over all
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: over the UK and in in Europe too, and you
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 1: became pretty damn good at what you did. You know
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 1: you if you didn't and you didn't become the band um.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: And then we got a record deal and our record
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: our record deal, and our record deal was based on
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: a demo which was sent up to E m I.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: So E m I invited us up to eat who
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: there to Abbey Road and we had to do a
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: full set on stage at Abbey Road with the producers
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 1: including George Martin, Nori Paramore, etcetera, etcetera, all the producers
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 1: looking at us sitting there like this. We had to
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: do our full charms crossed for those uh in the
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: non video arms crossed, and we did the full set
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: of Simony for the big sound set and low and behold,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: we gotta set, we gotta deal a record deal. But
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 1: the record deals one single and that was a record deal,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: you know, and one single came out. We were fortunate
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: enough to have it hit the lower parts of the
• 1:20:39
  Speaker 1: top four, so we did another record. But the record
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: deals in those days, they were an album deals. There
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: were one singles. I don't think that back beatles had
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: a record deal. I think there was a one single
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: deal that Love Me Do. That was it. So I
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: mean back in the day, it was about the singles,
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: and we did singles. So and that's how we built
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: our built our fan based our reputation. The album thing
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: was a whole different animal. That was the seventies. But
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: the sixties were all about record deals. And even bands
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 1: like Deep Purple, who was yeah there were Me and
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: Gylan and Roger Glover were in a Bad Episode six.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: They did singles. You know, you can the idol racer
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 1: Robert Plant was in the band of Joy. They did singles,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: you know. So all these bands that that was the
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: day when you did singles and you were lucky to
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: get a deal, And that was that's how you got
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: a deal. You did a whole set in front of
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: these producers and you were lucky to get a deal.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: So now I'm looking at these people saying three or
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: four years for an album, etcetera, etcetera. Okay, you know,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: I understand I did albums too, but you know what
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: it is. What again, I'll quote our our favorite uh,
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 1: our favorite guy who was sitting in the way up.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: It is what it is, um, and then that's that's ironic,
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: by the way, I'm sorry, that's a bit of irony
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: for it. You know, UM, it is about the song.
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: It is about what it is, and and it's today's
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: world and not not not the last years or last
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: last months, or or ten or fifteen twenty years ago.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: And I do have sometimes a problem in talking to
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 1: someone of those of those periods that and they have
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: all these golden platinum albums on their walls and saying
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: that's not going to happen anymore. It's over. You will
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: not have those anymore, and they're they're there, there's you know,
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: they're shrugging their shoulders, thinking why because that's that that
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 1: was then and this is now. You know, it's it's
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 1: it's it's a bizarre twist. But the weirdest twist for
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 1: me is having these hip hop UH musicians marketing back
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 1: to music which they thought was was relevant and authentic.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: And I just got a gold record, as I said,
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 1: from Round the Jewels, UH was you know with Killer
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: Mike and and LP, they're they're huge fans of mine
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: and this bizarre not of what I've done with bon
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: Jovio Pantera, but my as a musician, and that's the
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: key to it. Well, that brings us full circle literally,
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 1: starting with the General Giant, ending up with General Giant. Listen,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 1: this has been so informative. You tell a great story.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 1: Thanks so much for doing this, Derek so much. Are
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 1: you Bob? It's great to see you again as well.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 1: Until next time. This is Bob left side