Latest / Finding New Waters / Bogie Bowles on Early Sobriety, Music, and Why “It’s Just Weed” Isn’t True

Transcript

Bogie Bowles on Early Sobriety, Music, and Why “It’s Just Weed” Isn’t True · Finding New Waters

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  The top level potency was like 3% and that was enough to help
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  me wreck my life. And you're doing stuff in the 60
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  to 80, and if you're in dabs, you're doing stuff from the 90%
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  range. It's a whole different
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  psychoactive substance now. It's completely different.
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  All right. Welcome back everybody to
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  another episode of Finding New Waters.
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  My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
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  Development at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, sitting
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  here with our CEO, Justin McClendon.
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  Very special guest today, Bogey Bowles, who is the Clinical
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  Director at Ascend Recovery in Utah and definitely has a lot of
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  North Carolina connections, which we'll talk about.
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  So welcome, Bogey. Thank you.
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  Yeah, we're so glad to have you. I just give a little bit of my
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  own personal relationship, which is a loose word with Bogey.
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  And like, Justin kind of talked to him about like likelihood
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  they've met somewhere, probably in a professional setting.
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  There's a high likelihood you and I have been at a party or a
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  wedding together, something over the years.
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  I think you're about five years older than me, something like
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  that. And but my mom and your Aunt
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  Holly are very close friends. And my dad and your uncle and
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  my, you know, my, our families are very good friends, put it
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  that way. And I'm friends with your
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  cousins and, and I think this is right.
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  I remember distinctly your band knocked down smiling because I
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  was in late middle school, early high school when they were like
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  a big deal around here and even beyond.
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  And, and I think this is right. And I don't, I, I chose not to
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  ask you this yet, but I do think that you played at my friend's
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  bar mitzvah, which would have been in 1990.
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  Does that track? Not quite.
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  I don't. I mean, we did any gig we could
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  do and I love that. I love that you're pulling out
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  the knock down smiling part because it's like some of my
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  favorite, you know, music from from my history.
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  But we got together in the spring of 91, which was which is
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  actually after I got sober. Kind of the tell and all that.
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  I'm that I'm, I'm misremembering.
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  It's a, it's a the Mandela Effect.
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  I wanted to be true, though. OK, well, so.
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  Yeah. All right.
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  Well, that did not happen. I wonder who that really was.
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  I've always thought that I just. I mean.
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  That's how I remember the deal. If it was 1990, there's a fair
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  chance I may not have remembered it.
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  But I mean, you know, knock, knock down smiling didn't form
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  until 91, so that's probably what we're going to bank on.
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  Yeah. Well, all right, so you, so you
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  this, you were in at Carolina when Knockdown Smile was formed
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  in 91 and you got sober in when you were 18.
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  So a freshman at Carolina. So what, what?
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  How does that tell us about like all that stuff in that era?
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  OK. So I had been using probably for
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  five or six years. So, you know, got it, got an
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  early start out of the gate as as a lot of us did and then
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  still do, you know, from time to time.
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  But I went to, you know, I got, I got shipped off to a boarding
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  school and I had a great experience there and I got an
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  amazing education there. But I also really got like
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  advanced training and how to get away with stuff.
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  And, and so my, my use really escalated there.
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  And by the time I got to college, I was just primed to
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  crash and burn. And so I got to, to Chapel Hill
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  and I was there for about 3 months before I was politely
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  asked to leave. You know, the, the Dean pulled
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  me in his office and, and you know, I'll, I'll never forget
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  it. And the, the reason I'll never
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  forget it is because I had always been able to get away
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  with it. I'd always been able to just
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  pull off one more angle to, you know, one more hook in the rug,
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  right? And he just called it.
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  He goes, no, man. He goes, you know, he said,
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  we've been tracking your attendance and that comes off
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  your grade point average and you could make 1000 on your exams.
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  You're not going to pass. And I went, wait a minute, you
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  know, I just did. My head blew up and, and, and
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  then he looked at me. Excuse me?
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  Then he looked at me and he said, look, I think you have a
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  problem and I think you need to take care of that problem, but
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  you can't do it here. He said, no, if you go home and
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  you take care of that problem, you could do some correspondence
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  courses. I'll let you back in.
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  But you got a problem and you can't stay.
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  And that was the first real hard line consequence I had had in,
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  in maybe even ever as far as that goes.
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  And so, so I went home, you know, with my tail squarely
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  between my legs, You know, I mean, I just kind of thought my
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  life was over. Not, not only had I had I failed
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  out of Carolina, like now I had hosed the family legacy, you
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  know, I mean, like both my sisters went there.
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  My dad went there. I mean, he, he was a false start
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  too, which is kind of funny 'cause the last thing you're
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  ever going to do is be like the old man, you know, So he had a
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  false start and then went to Georgia.
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  He didn't go back to Carolina, but, but, you know, so my
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  grandfather, Holly, my aunt, you know, Martha, I mean, everybody,
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  Erskine, everybody in my family had been there and I was going
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  home. And, and so then I, I met with,
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  with a family doctor. I met with my parents and my
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  dad, you know, kind of called it out.
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  And, and I, I got honest with them, you know, for for the
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  first time really, you know, and, and just said, yeah, that's
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  what's going on. You know, 'cause he asked me if
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  it was alcohol and drugs. I said, yeah, it is.
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  And it was, it was a pivotal moment really in my relationship
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  with him because I had always felt, you know, like we were
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  combatants, you know, and, and, and in this meeting, we were.
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  But the second I copped to, yes, that's what's going on, he
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  really shifted and was like, hey, look, we can get you help.
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  We can figure this out. And, and so we, we, you know,
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  and I was like, whoa, I don't need help, you know, hang on.
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  I, I got a plan. I'll, I'll handle this.
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  But anyway, he had me meet with a, with a family friend that was
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  a doctor, doctor and addiction medicine and George Grimble and
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  I met with him and George really kind of pulled that 12 step
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  thing on me, just like relating to me, talking about his
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  experience, you know, validating stuff I've been through.
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  And, and then he goes, Hey, man, you want to take a ride?
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  And I was like, sure. And he took me on a tour of the
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  rehab that I would eventually go to.
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  And, and I went and I met the, the director of the program
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  there and he did the same thing, just kind of telling me about
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  some of the stuff, you know, the capers he used to pull and all
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  that and getting me comfortable. And then like saying, Hey, man,
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  this, we think you're in the position where you might want to
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  make a change. And I wholly disagreed that I
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  would need any of their help to do that and told George that on
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  the way back he goes, what do you think?
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  I said, well, George, I think that place is wonderful for
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  people that need it. I'm clearly not one of those
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  people. And and George started laughing
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  and and he said, he goes, he goes, what are you going to do,
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  bogey? And I was like, look, I'm going
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  to quit on my own. And you know, I'm, I'll just,
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  I'll, I'll get it together. I, you know, I, I know I can't
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  do it anymore. I've got, I've got a plan.
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  And he goes, oh, OK, because you can't do that.
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  And I'm like, what, who are you? Dude?
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  You don't even know me. I've known you for an hour and a
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  half, you know, and I was like, why don't you think I can do it?
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  And he and he said, bogey, I know you can't do it.
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  And I was like, this guy's coming at me now, you know, this
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  is the hard line of accountability, right?
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  And he goes bogey. I know you can't do it because I
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  couldn't do it. And I'm an alcoholic in recovery
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  and I and all my 18 year old Peston Vinegar said, well,
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  George, I'm sorry to hear that, but I got a plan.
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  So my, my plan was again to, to just stop on my own.
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  But you know, of course I left George's house and went and did
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  what we do when we're emotionally in turmoil, right?
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  I went and got loaded, spent the rest of the afternoon trying to,
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  trying to get, you know, out of those feelings and, and it
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  didn't work, obviously. And then I went home, had a
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  conversation with mom, dad was on the phone.
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  They said, you're going to rehab tomorrow.
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  And I was like, the hell I am. And they're like, no, you are.
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  And then and then my dad said this and it was really, I mean,
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  man, you talk about a a God universe moment, you know,
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  because I talked to my dad about this later on, you know, if he
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  remembered saying this and he didn't, you know, it was just
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  kind of one of those things that's there in the moment.
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  But he said this, he goes, look, Boogie, we think you need to go
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  and Doctor Grimmel thinks you need to go and you know, you
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  need to go. So why don't you just go?
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  And then that third part when he went, you know, you need to go.
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  This thing in me went off and it was so different than anything I
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  had felt before. I'm getting all emotional about
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  it now. I, I mean, I do this from time
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  to time, what I think about it because it was really powerful.
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  Like I didn't have any pushback. I didn't have a real, I don't
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  have any answers. I was out of ideas and he was
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  entirely correct. I did know that I needed to go
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  and it was at that point a thing in my chest, which we all know
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  is the vagus nerve correcting your connecting your head and
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  your heart, right? But it really went off and I
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  just had nothing. And I went, all right, I'll go.
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  And and then he said, OK, it's not going to do you any good to
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  go out and get ape shit tonight. So, you know, just stay at home.
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  And I was like, what, you kidding?
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  If this is my last night, it's going to be epic.
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  So I spent the rest of the night, you know, drinking too
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  much and doing whatever. And then I, I remember, I do
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  remember throwing up behind a dumpster and, and making it home
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  on time. And I know I was home on time
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  because I got home on time and my mom said, oh, you're home on
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  time. And I was like, yeah, remember
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  that. Like what?
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  I need credit for that somehow. I'm going to play that later for
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  all, you know, like, Hey, I can do what's right.
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  Anyway, next day I went, I was in detox for a couple days and
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  then they they put me into into wellspring, which is, I think
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  still their part of the and Med system down in South Carolina.
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  And and I had a real moment in there too.
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  You know, where much that, that they want our thing, you know,
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  where I just really surrendered and it's been different ever
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  since and I've been sober ever since.
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  You know, so I'm, I'm a I'm a one and done from treatment.
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  But, you know, I explained that to, to patients and to parents.
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  That doesn't mean I don't know what relapse is like, because
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  there were plenty of times in my life when I tried to stop on my
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  own and I couldn't. I I I had to have that.
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  I man, I yeah, I've never heard it said exactly like that
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  because for today I'm a one and done from treatment.
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  But you know, I've heard it said, you know, kind of in a
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  joking fashion. I did all my relapse before I
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  got sober, but I, but I definitely know what it's like
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  to try to stop and not be able to stop.
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  So I but I like that one and done from treatment.
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  And I think you said that the the treatment this was 35 years
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  ago. What?
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  How many years ago was it? Yeah, 35 years. 35 that's
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  unbelievable. Yeah, Congrats.
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  That's amazing. And but you did you say it was a
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  two week model. So early 90s, brief treatment
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  was kind of, you know, the thing and I went in on a Wednesday
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  afternoon. So I got to hang out for 2 1/2
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  weeks. Had I gone in on Wednesday
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  morning, it would have just been a week and 1/2.
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  And I'm really glad I had that extra, you know, three days
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  'cause it took three or four days for it to really for me to
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  have that real surrender moment. And that basically what that
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  looked like was I had a a knock on drag out with my counselor,
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  told him, you know, all kinds of things that he could go and do
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  when he told me I couldn't do what I wanted to do.
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  And, and I went and called everybody to come and get me
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  that I could think of and nobody would come.
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  Not, you know, not mom, not anybody.
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  I didn't call dad. I knew how that goes.
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  But but I called mom, you know, she was always the, the weak
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  wink in the chain and and man, mom held the line and I had
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  nothing. And, and then I, I went and I
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  was in the gym pretending to know Kung Fu so that people
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  wouldn't mess with me and, and, and what came to me and I've,
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  I've said this, you know, in in some some podcasts and stuff
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  before, but what came to me in that moment?
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  Like my head was really loud. So y'all know how we get, you
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  know, everything, everything just spinning and, and I had a
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  moment and, and it all stopped and it got really quiet.
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  And then this came to me and it was Bogey.
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  You've been fighting your whole life to live the way you want to
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  live, and it got you here. Everybody here says they want to
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  help you. Why don't you just let them out?
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  And that thing in my chest went off, and I had no answer.
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  And I just went OK, and that was it, man.
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  It's, that's when it really got different, you know, and I, you
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  know, again in the, in the 12 step thing where, you know, you
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  admit the powerless and the unmanageability and then you
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  come to believe and then you make the decision.
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  You know, I kind of look at like that conversation with my dad,
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  you know, is it alcohol and drugs?
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  Yes, it is. There's Step 1, you know, you
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  know, you need to go. There's Step 2 and that, you
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  know, why don't you just let him help you?
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  OK, That was Step 3. And and there I was.
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  Man, I hear you. That's amazing.
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  So did you. How long was it before you were
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  back in Chapel Hill? Yeah, I was thinking the same
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  thing, that the the transition now from sober to I'm going to
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  go back to school and finish my degree and become 18, right.
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  Yeah, well, but also be in a band it's sober in college for,
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  I mean, four more years of it, right?
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  Yeah, well, there's a there's a gap in the old educational part.
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  So and this I actually. I'm familiar with that, but I.
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  Love this because I'm very familiar with that.
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  Early recovery does not mean stability, right?
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  You know, there's all kinds of all kinds of regression in it.
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  There's all kinds of of, you know, just honestly chaos
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  because we don't know from a whole lot else.
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  But so I went home and I was living at home for about 5
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  months and I visited Chapel Hill a couple of times, friends, all
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  friends and went to meetings and, and I was going to like 2
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  meetings a day for about the first three, 3 1/2 years.
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  I went to a couple of meetings a day.
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  My life at the time would allow that.
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  You know, I know that not everybody can do that, but, but
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  that's what I was doing. And, and so with, with five
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  months, I went back up to Chapel Hill.
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  I did summer school for a couple of sessions and then I did, I
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  did fall and spring and then I did the fall again.
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  And then guess what? I was academically ineligible
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  because I didn't have it together, right?
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  My executive functioning was not there, man.
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  I didn't have it. I was still a 19 year old kid,
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  you know? And then so my advisor called me
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  and told me you weren't you, you, your GPA isn't up to where
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  you're eligible to continue. You got to probably go and do
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  night school or all that kind of stuff.
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  And that point, I was like, man, I really just kind of want to be
• 16:25
  in this band, which was knocked out, smiling and, you know, take
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  over the world with that. So, you know, finding out about
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  the Holy Roman Empire. I don't care.
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  I'm good. And so I left school that, you
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  know what? No, I didn't leave school.
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  I wasn't able to go to school. I mean, be accountable for that.
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  So I just made my peace with it all, like, well, I didn't want
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  to do it anyway. And so I did music for the next
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  20 years. I was in knock down smiling
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  until 97. And then we all felt like that
• 16:55
  had run its course. I was wanting, you know, to
• 16:58
  really pursue more of a career than just kind of the, the
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  circuit on the East Coast. And so I moved to LA and what's
• 17:05
  the LA Music Academy out there got plugged into the recovery
• 17:09
  community out there too. And that's a great thing about
• 17:11
  the recovery community. It's everywhere, it's worldwide.
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  So I did that. I was in, I was in that program,
• 17:16
  finished that program for a year and then they asked me to teach
• 17:20
  there and I was living in Pasadena and teaching at school
• 17:24
  and doing gigs around town and it's recording sessions.
• 17:27
  And then I got the gig with Kenny Lane Shepherd and that was
• 17:31
  a big, you know, it's my first like tour bus gig.
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  And so I was out with Kenny for a year from the fall of O4 to
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  the fall of O5. And the last two months of that
• 17:42
  we were open for B.B. King and Joe Bonamassa was the
• 17:46
  other opening act. So I met Joe there.
• 17:48
  And then when my tour ended with Kenny was probably home a month
• 17:52
  or so. And then Joe called and said,
• 17:54
  hey, do you want to come and fill in for a couple of weeks?
• 17:56
  My guys taking off for a minute. And I was like, yeah, that'd be
• 17:59
  great. And so I did that.
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  And then after that, you know, I think it was sometime in
• 18:05
  January, he called and said, what are you doing in the next
• 18:08
  couple of months? I was like nothing.
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  And and so he said, well, I'm going to Europe and, you know,
• 18:14
  loves what we did and you want to come and join.
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  And that turned into five years of work with him.
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  And so that was that was touring the world nine months out of the
• 18:23
  year for those five years. We did over 1000 shows together.
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  It's like over 200 shows a year. And so, you know, being in
• 18:32
  recovery, being sober, having my, you know, professional stuff
• 18:36
  together, but as well as my emotional stuff together, it
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  empowered me to do that gig 'cause trust me, a tour bus is a
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  basic submarine experience. You are in close quarters.
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  I hear of. You, you are in close quarters
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  with, with your peers all day. And if you cannot coexist and
• 18:54
  not cause problems, you will not last.
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  And that's my recovery allowed me to be at peace with, you
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  know, things that are going on that I might not agree with
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  whatever, but and to enjoy the experience of what I've worked
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  hard for. And, and so I got to do all
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  that, you know, it, it ran its course, you know, with me really
• 19:13
  in, in just in my life. And I had decided, I think it
• 19:18
  was probably August of, of 2010 that I wanted to, to get off the
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  road and, you know, do do other things.
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  And this was one of them. That was like, you know, what
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  guy I knew that I, I, I'd finally gotten in touch with the
• 19:31
  fact that I want a family. And so I want to do that.
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  And it was like, well, what can I do that's fulfilling still?
• 19:37
  And, you know, I can, I could feel good about what I'm doing.
• 19:40
  And I'd always been a fan of therapy as a patient.
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  And and so I was like, you know, the service part of my recovery
• 19:48
  had been missing while I was on the road.
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  Like I could go to meetings and I could work the steps, but I
• 19:54
  couldn't sit down with anybody, you know, and really like, help
• 19:57
  them one-on-one. And and I was missing that.
• 19:59
  And I and I felt that void and, and I said, OK, you know, that's
• 20:03
  this, this will work. And so talk to my good friends,
• 20:07
  Harold Owens. Harold at the time was part of
• 20:12
  music airs and, and we just talked about like, you know
• 20:16
  what, what are the pathways to this food?
• 20:19
  And Harold helped me kind of like plotted out and and so
• 20:21
  that's what we did and had an offer to move to Salt Lake.
• 20:24
  My girlfriend at the time, who's not my wife and and we have our
• 20:27
  kids together. She was living here and had an
• 20:32
  offer to come up and do some studio stuff here and then also
• 20:35
  go to work at Cirque Lodge with Gary Fisher and the gang at the
• 20:39
  time, Bev Rush and all them. And so the universe just went
• 20:43
  yes and here you go And then that's that's when I moved here
• 20:48
  and was here for a few years and then chipping away at that
• 20:51
  degree. I went back to school right at
• 20:53
  38. I was, you know, you know, the
• 20:55
  the Rodney Dangerfield, the pros, the world's oldest living
• 20:58
  freshman, and. Great.
• 21:03
  Film Yeah. So so did that and and and then
• 21:06
  got into got into the University of Utah, their grad school.
• 21:11
  I was finishing up there for undergrad and got into their
• 21:13
  grad school and I went, man, I wonder if I could get into
• 21:17
  Carolina. You know, I left there on now
• 21:20
  the greatest terms. It's one of the top five social
• 21:22
  work schools. That would be really cool.
• 21:25
  So I applied and then the universe said, hey, kid, come
• 21:28
  make it right. And so 20 years later, I went
• 21:31
  back to Chapel Hill and got my master's day.
• 21:35
  That is. Awesome.
• 21:36
  Yeah, yeah. Super, super cool.
• 21:39
  And so you get your masters and then you did work here locally
• 21:43
  to us at least at Duke, right? Yep.
• 21:47
  As as as part of that, yeah. As part of that, while you're
• 21:50
  while you're getting your masters, OK.
• 21:52
  And then now you're, you're been in a sin since 18, right?
• 21:56
  Yeah, yeah. End of 18, early 2019.
• 21:58
  Yeah. OK, cool.
• 22:01
  Yeah. Nice man.
• 22:02
  Well, we Gary is a former guest on the podcast and a good friend
• 22:08
  of mine. I see him all over the place.
• 22:11
  Very lucky to know him. You know, he famously says when
• 22:14
  we're out in some beautiful location, playing golf or
• 22:16
  otherwise, boys, look what we drank ourselves into.
• 22:22
  That's so Gary. It's true, right?
• 22:24
  It's true. Well, I mean, so are you able
• 22:27
  to, to, I mean, what is your, the, the music piece of your
• 22:31
  life now, the recovery piece of your life and your professional
• 22:35
  life? How are they intertwined at the
• 22:36
  moment? I get to do music assisted
• 22:40
  therapy here, which is really fun.
• 22:42
  That's awesome. We've got a studio, you know,
• 22:45
  drums, guitars, you know, all kinds of stuff in there and what
• 22:50
  I and we do a a weekly music group.
• 22:53
  But what I love to do in those groups, it gives you a different
• 22:55
  access points to people's anxiety and inner critic, right?
• 23:00
  You know, you, you get somebody learning something different
• 23:02
  that they've never done before. You just watch it come up and
• 23:06
  all that. It's like, all right, let's talk
• 23:08
  about what's going on. And so that's what I do every
• 23:11
  week, you know, I try to get them into a different
• 23:13
  experience. And, and the other part, I mean,
• 23:15
  ascend is a very relationship, you know, attachment based
• 23:19
  model, OK. And so to do that one-on-one in
• 23:23
  a session is great and you know your therapist is a safe place
• 23:26
  and all that stuff, But to do it in front of your peers is a
• 23:29
  different experience. And to watch your peers not only
• 23:32
  show up for you, but have that same experience is a really,
• 23:36
  really fun thing to witness because they really do show up
• 23:40
  for each other. The encouragement is there and
• 23:41
  then they relate. It's like, man, if I was up
• 23:43
  there doing that and I'm like, well, you're next.
• 23:46
  But you know, I, I, I get them behind the drums, I might give
• 23:49
  them guitar. And the fun thing about it for
• 23:50
  me is I don't know how to play guitar.
• 23:52
  I don't know anything about that.
• 23:53
  Like I can play chords on a piano, but I'll have to sit
• 23:57
  there and in front of them, figure out something on guitar
• 23:59
  or bass and then hand it to them and be like, all right, so try
• 24:02
  that, you know? And so there's a process of, you
• 24:06
  know, openness and, you know, discovery to it that really kind
• 24:10
  of enriches the experience. But once you get access to that
• 24:14
  inner critic, I mean, that's a real driving force of the
• 24:17
  addiction and, and the mental health drugs cause those are
• 24:20
  the, those are the messages we tell ourselves all the time.
• 24:23
  And when we could, when we could figure out how to show up for
• 24:27
  ourselves more compassionately, we're going to show up for our
• 24:30
  relationships differently, too. When you say you being somebody
• 24:37
  who got sober at 18 and then you travel the world while you know
• 24:42
  as a musician and keeping your recovery, you know, staying
• 24:44
  close to the program, even if you weren't, you know,
• 24:47
  constantly around other the the fellowship other than going to
• 24:50
  meetings in city to city and then now working in the field
• 24:53
  and you're with a lot of young adults.
• 24:55
  What do you what, what do you see is some obvious and maybe
• 24:59
  some not so obvious differences in what you're what people are
• 25:02
  kind of in treatment for versus, you know, when you were in the
• 25:05
  treatment in the 90s at 18 versus now in 2026?
• 25:08
  Man, it is vastly different now. I mean, let's talk cannabis
• 25:15
  induce psychosis, right? I mean, that's a whole other
• 25:19
  planet. And I, and I tell them this, you
• 25:22
  know, I'm like, what? When I was doing that stuff, the
• 25:25
  top, the top level potency was like 3% and that was enough to
• 25:32
  help me wreck my life. And you're doing stuff in the 60
• 25:36
  to 80 and if you're in dabs, you're doing stuff in the 90%
• 25:39
  range. It's a whole different
• 25:41
  psychoactive substance now. It's completely different.
• 25:45
  And the psychosis, I mean, I've had people here that did not
• 25:51
  really land OK for months now. That's a very different place
• 25:59
  than when I was gone from right. And so I, I see a real need for
• 26:05
  longer term stuff for the stabilization part, for the
• 26:08
  helping them land and, and figuring that out.
• 26:10
  And also, I mean, you know, unfortunately sometimes people
• 26:14
  don't land after that. You open doors that won't close
• 26:19
  and you know you're going to need to find out how long it
• 26:22
  might take and if they don't, OK, now what kind of structure
• 26:26
  and support you need. And the brief treatment model in
• 26:28
  the 90s would never give you that because there's not enough
• 26:31
  time. You know, the other thing it
• 26:33
  doesn't give you is there's not enough time to build
• 26:35
  relationship and trust and do real in depth work.
• 26:39
  You know, my recovery got so much deeper when I got with a
• 26:45
  great therapist in LA and she took me further down, you know,
• 26:50
  used all the tools that I had. You know, I was seven years
• 26:53
  sober, almost almost eight years sober when I started seeing
• 26:57
  Donna and she was able to take all of that stuff that we
• 27:01
  learned, you know, rigorous honesty, self reflection, you
• 27:04
  know, all of that and really use it to our advantage.
• 27:09
  You know, so I, I'd really heavily inspired by her and,
• 27:14
  and, and try to model that with the people here.
• 27:17
  Like, OK, because, because most people don't get to ascend as
• 27:20
  their first stop. You know, they've, they've had a
• 27:23
  few false stars in treatment and some of them have even maybe
• 27:27
  even had some time in recovery. And, and I'm like, OK, well,
• 27:29
  let's, let's work with the strengths that are there.
• 27:31
  Let's use what you got and, and see where we can take this.
• 27:35
  But the, the difference now, I would really say that what we're
• 27:38
  seeing, I mean, five years ago it was really more of the opiate
• 27:41
  piece that was so prominent and not that that's not still an
• 27:45
  issue, it certainly is. But what's walking through our
• 27:48
  doors has been more of that psychosis stuff.
• 27:51
  But now I would say the, the last, the last two to three
• 27:55
  years, it's been more of that cannabis piece.
• 27:58
  I'd say the last year or so we're seeing much more mental
• 28:03
  health, like prominent, you know, like kind of self
• 28:06
  medicating use to deal with the mental health components and a
• 28:11
  real lack of resiliency because of, you know, everything that
• 28:15
  they haven't had to endure or explore to gain their access to
• 28:19
  their strengths. And, and so we're really working
• 28:23
  hard with executive functioning, helping them start to, you know,
• 28:28
  once, once we do the inner work, once we really get in like we
• 28:30
  have a lot of trauma to. And, and so once we really, you
• 28:34
  know, get into that and, and start helping you feel some
• 28:36
  relief there, it's like, OK, we, we've got a foundation now we
• 28:40
  got to work on how do we walk out of here and execute?
• 28:43
  And that's the, what we do in Phase 2 is focus on the
• 28:46
  executive functioning, you know, life skills, maintaining a lot
• 28:50
  of that relationship connection that you've built in phase one
• 28:53
  in residential to prepare you for what is for us phase three,
• 28:57
  which is several of the IOP. And like you're going back to
• 29:01
  work, you're doing all of the things that a regular life has
• 29:03
  and you're going to be able to find fulfilment there.
• 29:07
  And, and, and so you know, the, the patients have responded
• 29:10
  well. But the, the main thing I would
• 29:12
  say again over the last year or so, it's been that that struggle
• 29:16
  to integrate and find your own strengths and, and really feel
• 29:20
  resilient and be able to kind of weather the storms like we're
• 29:23
  talking about earlier, you know, the regressions that happen in
• 29:26
  early recovery. Absolutely.
• 29:32
  And you how long are the clients out there, patients out there?
• 29:38
  I mean. Much like the average.
• 29:39
  Yeah, I hit them pretty hard with like, look, this is not a
• 29:43
  day count, right? And I don't care what your
• 29:46
  insurance says. I don't care what it covers.
• 29:49
  That's not my game. You know, what's going to move
• 29:52
  you is actual clinical readings. When you're ready, I'm going to,
• 29:55
  I'm going to move you on. If you're not, I wouldn't be in
• 29:59
  my clinical integrity to set you up to fail.
• 30:02
  That's horrible, you know? So 30 days and goodbye.
• 30:05
  No, I'm not doing that. Typically though, it residential
• 30:10
  60 days ish somewhere around there.
• 30:13
  And then phase two, phase two, PHP 30 to 45 ish.
• 30:18
  You know, we've had people in in phase two for, you know, two to
• 30:22
  three months. Again, just depending on like
• 30:24
  how long it takes them to really kind of grab on to their own
• 30:27
  strengths and be able to execute that stuff and, and, and
• 30:30
  maintain all of that and, and endure the regression.
• 30:34
  So anyway, typically 3045 days, maybe 60.
• 30:38
  And then we look for a A2 to three month commitment at
• 30:41
  several learning. So you can, you can do the whole
• 30:44
  thing in probably 5 to 6 months, but most people end up staying
• 30:49
  probably 6 to 9. That's great.
• 30:54
  That's awesome. Yeah.
• 30:55
  I mean that, that, that go ahead well.
• 30:57
  I was going to say, and what's the typical demographic?
• 30:59
  Does it skew young or do you see kind of a a wide span of ages?
• 31:04
  Yeah, I mean, we, it, we're, we take 18 and up.
• 31:06
  I mean, you know what we're not is, hey, you're a professional
• 31:10
  in your mid 40s with a solid career and you hit a bump in the
• 31:13
  road. We're that probably wouldn't do
• 31:15
  so well here. We've had a few of those and
• 31:18
  we've been able to do good work. And, and it's because they were
• 31:21
  open to it, you know, but typically it's kind of that
• 31:25
  early 20s to like maybe early 30s ish.
• 31:28
  You know, we've got a guy here right now who's 38 and, and is
• 31:32
  doing fine. He's in Phase 2 now and, and all
• 31:34
  that. And again, cannabis induced
• 31:37
  psychosis and it really set him back.
• 31:39
  So he needed the stabilization a lot.
• 31:42
  But yeah, usually it's early 20s.
• 31:43
  Somewhere in there you know to to late 20s, early 30s.
• 31:50
  Something we talk about on this podcast a lot and in general,
• 31:55
  and I just kind of want to hear your thoughts.
• 31:57
  I can imagine what they are, I think.
• 31:59
  But you know, we are a little bit older than me, but when I
• 32:03
  was in high school in the 90s, this 3% weed you're talking
• 32:07
  about was almost harmless, even though, you know, it definitely
• 32:11
  didn't help me with my life and contributed to my demise.
• 32:15
  But it was still basically like made you tired, made you hungry,
• 32:18
  made you laugh, sends stems and seeds, whatever.
• 32:24
  But I remember. But The thing is, but starting
• 32:27
  in the 60s or maybe even before there's, you know, with peace
• 32:32
  and love free, you know, the summer of love, like around that
• 32:34
  time, there's this kind of movement to legalize it, you
• 32:37
  know, And so that product and that that drug was the one that
• 32:45
  they were trying to make legal with, you know, good intentions,
• 32:48
  let's say. The momentum kept going while
• 32:52
  the product became a completely different thing.
• 32:54
  And even though it's not legal everywhere, it's legal a lot of
• 32:58
  places and it's basically accepted everywhere and
• 33:01
  decriminalized in most other places.
• 33:04
  So all that time while it's getting, you know, the
• 33:06
  reputation is becoming less stigmatized and it, it's
• 33:11
  basically fine, if not legal, it's becoming a completely
• 33:13
  different thing. And so the culture, it's like,
• 33:16
  oh, but it's, it's fine. It's fine.
• 33:19
  And it's just wrecking people. I guess peek behind the curtain
• 33:25
  and you know, we're seeing the same stuff you're saying bogey
• 33:28
  is. Well, yeah, I'm supposed to say
• 33:29
  it's not fine. I mean, there's there, you're
• 33:31
  opening doors you can't close or closing doors you can't open or
• 33:34
  whatever. You just said that that was not
• 33:36
  the case. No.
• 33:37
  In 1994. Right.
• 33:38
  No, not even. And and you said it well.
• 33:41
  We're we're. Go ahead.
• 33:44
  Go ahead, Bogey. No, No.
• 33:46
  No, go ahead. I, I was, you know, you said it
• 33:47
  well, it's like the movement was around, you know, one type of
• 33:52
  substance, you know, the, the hippie lettuce.
• 33:56
  It was about that, right? It was not about this
• 33:59
  psychoactive thing. But like then then it became an
• 34:02
  industry and like, dude, it's it's a whole other world.
• 34:07
  Yeah, it's out of control and it's really detrimental.
• 34:11
  And and that's The thing is, unfortunately, I think we still
• 34:14
  have this lingering, you know, attitude that, you know, it's
• 34:18
  fine, it's harmless, it's not that bad and it's, it's really
• 34:21
  is not. And then, you know, and then
• 34:22
  that's the the legal stuff, right?
• 34:24
  That's the actual cannabis. And then, you know, we won't go
• 34:26
  too far down that rabbit hole. But all this Delta THCA products
• 34:31
  that are not bad, and they're really just like this chemical
• 34:35
  that is completely unregulated and like, you know, God, it's
• 34:38
  just, it is. It is.
• 34:40
  It's bad. It's real bad, Yeah.
• 34:43
  Well, it's kind of like the, you know, when it's the, it seems to
• 34:47
  be having the effects of these sort of urban legend horror
• 34:50
  stories. We used to hear about a guy who,
• 34:52
  you know, had a, you know, a sheet of acid in his pocket and
• 34:55
  got caught in the rain and he turned into a blueberry muffin
• 34:59
  and that was it. And now and, and now that's
• 35:03
  happening on a regular basis, you know, slowly where people
• 35:07
  and, you know, parents not blaming them, but they just are
• 35:10
  like, oh, it's just weed. You know, when I was in college,
• 35:12
  it was just, you know, but it's not.
• 35:14
  It's turning these people into blueberry muffins.
• 35:16
  And that's slowly, sometimes quickly.
• 35:18
  That's the lack of education that, you know, our generation
• 35:22
  has. We have one connotation with
• 35:25
  what it is and, and we're we're quite comfortable there, right?
• 35:29
  You know, it's good to know what you know, it feels good, right?
• 35:32
  And to challenge that requires a degree of openness that not
• 35:36
  everybody in the world has. And if your kids doing it,
• 35:39
  there's a real fear of like that could go wrong.
• 35:42
  And man, it's real easy to lean into like, oh, but it's OK
• 35:45
  because, you know, I know what it is.
• 35:47
  There's a comfort zone there. You're not, you're not inclined
• 35:50
  to challenge that and be honest because of how scary it really
• 35:53
  can be. Absolutely.
• 35:57
  And don't, you know, don't want to admit we were wrong.
• 36:00
  I mean, that's hard for people, including me sometimes.
• 36:04
  But yeah, I mean. It's real.
• 36:05
  Scourge, I mean it really, it really is.
• 36:07
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:08
  Well, don't speak for me, but yeah, we're, we're seeing it a
• 36:12
  lot too. So we're, you know, we're seeing
• 36:13
  it and it's mostly younger people, but you know, I had a
• 36:16
  friend I grew up with who was now 50, who or will be this
• 36:20
  summer, who, you know, it came to us and it was, he just
• 36:23
  basically completely scrambled his brain from, from, from THC.
• 36:29
  And it's not limited to these kids who don't know any better.
• 36:32
  You know, it's, it's crazy. I've, I've had people here with,
• 36:36
  with law degrees, OK, yeah, incredibly smart people that
• 36:42
  took high concentrates and are not the same person they were,
• 36:51
  you know. We had AI had we had a guy who's
• 36:53
  a friend of mine in the field and he is recovery guy, but
• 36:59
  where he's a clinical interventionist and a therapist.
• 37:01
  And he was said, you know, I mean, I, I basically smoked
• 37:03
  crack every day for five years and I'm fine, you know, you
• 37:09
  know, but people who smoke dabs and D9 every day for five years,
• 37:14
  they're not fine. They're not and they're, they're
• 37:16
  likely not coming back. And that's, that's what that's
• 37:18
  the thing. It's like the parents, you'd
• 37:21
  find out their kids smoking crack, they're like, Oh my God.
• 37:23
  And rightfully so. But when they find out they're
• 37:25
  just constantly smoking this other stuff, they're like, it's
• 37:27
  just a kid. It's just the stuff they sell at
• 37:28
  the store or it's just weeds and it and it's just, it's I, I just
• 37:32
  I. It's frustrating and sad.
• 37:35
  And I mean, again, back to we're comfortable in what we know.
• 37:39
  We know crack was the devil, right?
• 37:41
  That's what we grew up with. The message was very clear.
• 37:44
  So of course, it scares the hell out of us, you know, and we were
• 37:48
  safer. So it doesn't scare us as much.
• 37:51
  Yeah. Well, go ahead.
• 37:54
  Now I was just going to say there's so many thoughts that
• 37:56
  come up with that. The first one is I think we all
• 37:58
  know like the Reefer madness thing.
• 37:59
  And I think it was like this desensitization to, you know,
• 38:03
  it's like, oh, it's so scary and everybody's like, it's not
• 38:06
  scary, it's fine. And then that just stuck.
• 38:08
  And now it's like we're back to saying like, hey guys, this is
• 38:11
  scary. And everybody's just.
• 38:12
  Like, you know, it's like it's just boy who cried wolf.
• 38:15
  Yeah. And that's, that's so perfect
• 38:17
  because, you know, be your right.
• 38:20
  And you mentioned this, it's like we were told the horror
• 38:22
  stories of like, you know, if you smoke weed, you get to jump
• 38:26
  off the bridge, you know, and all that kind of stuff.
• 38:28
  And you know, I don't know about y'all, but nobody in my sphere
• 38:32
  did. And so I saw my buddy doing that
• 38:36
  stuff and he was look like he's having a pretty good time and
• 38:40
  like real, no real danger there. And so I'm like, all right,
• 38:44
  well, the messages I'm getting are really bullshit.
• 38:47
  You know, he's, these people are lying to me.
• 38:50
  Yeah. And, And so I'm going to go and
• 38:52
  do this stuff and figure it out. And, and now that's not a Horror
• 38:56
  Story. That is a very, very significant
• 38:59
  piece of reality. Totally.
• 39:02
  And there there's a, there's a movie I remember seeing, I think
• 39:04
  it's called Desperate Lives. Helen Hunt is in it.
• 39:07
  Before she was famous, it was like almost like an after school
• 39:10
  and somebody does smoke weed and like jumps off a building and
• 39:13
  commits suicide during school and we're all like, oh, that's
• 39:16
  ridiculous. But that's the thing.
• 39:18
  It's like that It was almost they were ahead of their time.
• 39:20
  You know, interesting. Yeah.
• 39:24
  Well, hey man, we're we're kind of up against it here.
• 39:27
  I just, I mean, this has been awesome.
• 39:32
  And and while, while we still have a few minutes, I mean,
• 39:35
  just, you know, we've talked about ascend and I mean, we
• 39:38
  always ask people, you know, how do they find you?
• 39:41
  How do they find Ascend? I mean, so Cam, Cam Cameron can
• 39:48
  is, is our admissions director and and he's he's, he's a go to.
• 39:52
  I know that y'all y'all know each other for a long time.
• 39:55
  Absolutely. Yeah, he's my buddy.
• 39:57
  Yeah. I told him that you were going
• 39:58
  to be on. He was like, no way.
• 39:59
  Should have told me that so he's he's the go to.
• 40:03
  We have a website that'll connect you to him all that kind
• 40:05
  of stuff. But most of the time it's.
• 40:08
  It's interventionist, it's AD consultant that, you know, it's
• 40:11
  reference that that bring us people that we have
• 40:13
  relationships with. You know, they know us, they
• 40:15
  know our work and, and all of that.
• 40:17
  And they've, you know, come out and met the team and, and seen
• 40:20
  the place and, and all that. They understand what our
• 40:23
  capacity is, you know, to handle really complex cases and, you
• 40:26
  know, mental health and trauma and substance abuse and all of
• 40:29
  that together. And so they they know us and
• 40:31
  they trust us, and they send us people that they're entrusted to
• 40:34
  care for. Love it.
• 40:38
  Very good. Awesome.
• 40:40
  Well, hey man, thank you so much for being here.
• 40:42
  It's great to maybe meet you for the first time.
• 40:46
  Apologies for the misremembering of the knock on smiling Bar
• 40:49
  Mitzvah show. I'm going to my first order of
• 40:51
  business when I leave here is to call my friend's mom and find
• 40:54
  out who who that really was. And man, this is just awesome.
• 40:59
  And it's been great to reconnect with you even though we just you
• 41:02
  know, and Holly's going to be so excited about this.
• 41:04
  I promised my mom I would tell her after we recorded in case
• 41:07
  this didn't happen for some reason.
• 41:08
  So. Well she she shot me attacks.
• 41:10
  She found out that I was going to be honest, she did so.
• 41:13
  So she shot me a text. Nice.
• 41:16
  Well, you know, and I love her so much and she has been, she
• 41:21
  was when I first got sober and like, I mean, I think she called
• 41:24
  me the day I got home from treatment.
• 41:25
  And she has always been so supportive of me and my recovery
• 41:28
  and just just so just in my corner.
• 41:32
  And I thank her so much for that.
• 41:34
  I'm doing it right here publicly in front of her nephew.
• 41:37
  So thank you again for being here.
• 41:39
  And I look forward to seeing you in real life soon, hopefully out
• 41:41
  in Utah. Absolutely my friend.
• 41:42
  Thank you all so much for having me an honor.
• 41:44
  Yeah, buddy. Thank you.
• 41:45
  Buggy. Thank you, buddy.
• 41:47
  All right, see you, Buggy. If you liked what you heard
• 41:49
  today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
• 41:55
  visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.