Latest / The Sex, Porn & Love Addiction Podcast / Enjoy this bonus episode from an interview about my life's journey!

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Enjoy this bonus episode from an interview about my life's journey! · The Sex, Porn & Love Addiction Podcast

• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome everybody to the Seaman Heard Podcast, a conversational series.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_03: Today I have the great honor of speaking to Gary McFarlane.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Gary is a relate trained and experienced relationship counsellor, mediator, sex therapy, sex porn love addiction therapist.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: He provides support to impacted partners of sex addiction.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_03: He's an accredited EMDR therapist working with trauma, complex trauma, PTSD, panic attacks, anxiety, stress, body issues, dissociation and addictions, all undertaken by secure webcams clients from all parts of the country and abroad.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_03: He's an accredited member of Professional Bodies and he's a member of Stop So and a past solicitor.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_03: Gary has developed the Kairos Center's own unique brand of sex porn love addiction recovery program, giving priority to what happened to you back there in childhood development.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_03: Rather than pointing clients first and foremost to a recovery program.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_03: The addiction is for self-food soothing from something or some things, hence the use of EMDR to first address the trauma.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: He has create created what may be the world's first fully comprehensive video on demand online webinar, Sex Porn, Love Addiction, and Recovery Program, being used by many clients throughout the world.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_03: Singles and couples may also be interested in this video on demand relationship program to enhance aspects of their relationship.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: Gary, welcome.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's a privilege to be here, Chris.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for inviting me.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_03: One of the uh first uh therapists um practitioners that we had onto our directory at Seaman Heard uh in the early days when we were just getting started.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: And um yeah, it's been a I've really enjoyed our conversations along the way.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's lovely.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's lovely to have got there because I just did not seem to be a right fit initially for because I I'm not so much a boarding school attender, but maybe we'll get into that as to how I end up working actually with a lot of boarding school attenders.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I I really enjoyed that, and I think you challenged me really um really well on one of our first conversations because I perhaps got myself a little rigid in my mindset about you know certain um uh sort of having to attend the boarding school or had undergone training, you know, the boarding school syndrome training and things like that.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_03: But you've naturally come to work with so many boarders in your in your in your work and your your story is is really amazing.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_03: So I can see you know it was very helpful to have that challenge for me.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks, Chris.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_03: No worries.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, that's a bit of context of how we met, and uh it's been a great conversation since.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_03: But what really sparked me to want to do the podcast and and ask if you'd be willing to come on is is absolute fascination around sex, porn, love addiction um on a very personal level, uh, and you know, with so many people that we see coming to Seaman Heard and in my own coaching work.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_03: So really looking forward to getting into that today.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_03: But uh I always love to know on a podcast, you know, uh who someone is, where they came from, what their story is.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_03: So, Gary, if you wouldn't mind sharing a little bit about what life was like for you when you were growing up, and uh we can get a flavor of how things were.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: Well, dude, Chris, every time I lift my head up, I ask, How did I get here?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I just use the how did this black man whose wife is not gonna see him naked?
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Such was my shyness about all things sexual, end up becoming a sex therapist, um, sex porn love addiction, talking about sex all day.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I just look and how did I get here?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Lawyer one day woke up, he's no longer the lawyer, he's the therapist.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's a journey, and I designed my life in a lovely packed way.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: This is gonna achievements.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: It hasn't gone anything like the things I designed my life to be.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I always begin with with when I first have a session with a client, I I introduce them to themselves.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is the little black Gary here, the little black baby, really.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_00: And in answer to your question, it's that um I was born actually in Jamaica, and when I was 18, actually it was 16 months.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't 18 months, 16 months old, my parents came to England to give us a better start in life, better quality of life, better education, etc.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: And so um they left, and I was left in Jamaica with two older sisters, but I did not see my parents again until I was um age nearly about six, going on seven, and so some significant things happened that I had no idea about.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what's the problem?
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: They're the bravest of the bravest.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, in my forties, I'm angry, Chris, with my mum.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeing red and I don't get it because I love my mum, love my dad, they're the bravest of the bravest.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: What on earth is going on?
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_00: Why when I go around to visit her?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: Am I so angry at her and limiting the contact?
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I want to, and yet I don't, and I couldn't understand the dynamics.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And Chris, I really the best way to put it is there's a there's a Gary that I didn't know.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: And aunties, uncles, the extended family brought me up in Jamaica until I came to see my parents, these people.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's the best way I can describe them, these these people.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I didn't know there was a problem, Chris.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: But clearly, um, this stuff in my 40s, when I'm now the lawyer, no longer enjoying being the law lawyer and a partner in a big law firm, what on earth is going on?
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_00: Children in private education, big house.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um what's going on?
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't enjoy what I do.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: And what had happened is I started volunteering at Relate to train in in relationship issues, singles and couples, and I was preferring the work with Relate than I was in the law firm.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: But the law firm was paying the bills and the private school and the and but I'm waking up and this is drudgery, and yet I'm alive when I volunteer at Relate.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: There's a dichotomy, and so as I start to to train in counseling um through Relate, I realize there is this Gary that I don't really know.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And the best way to describe it, Chris, the best way I describe it is is using the Russian doll, really.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: Something had happened, and reading these books, Freud and all these others that I'm going away studying on the weekend, it was getting inside of me.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And any of us that has done any counseling training know that before you can look to help others, there's something about you gotta do that, and you gotta do that, and you gotta do that, and you gotta go on the journey to find you, whether I wanted it or not, because of course I'm not that broken.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but this stuff of books and Freud, it really was getting inside of me.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, Chris, I was on an unstoppable journey, and I have to tell you, it took out an 18-year marriage and two children, so this isn't small, it it really was a pretty major event in my forties, but it all started back there, really, which it was the little boy, and clearly, and this is so relevant, really, as a part of what I call the attachment stuff, the insecure attachment.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: What is this?
• 9:38
  SPEAKER_00: And how dare some person called John Balby try to put me in a box and tell me that if this happens to me when I'm young and this is gonna show itself in adulthood, how dare you! And anyway, I'm a complex being made by God, I'm not like anybody else, and uh oh my goodness.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't like that, I don't like that description.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's not oh, actually, that's describing me.
• 10:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's really was the spark in my face, Chris, and I didn't like it.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to tell you, going into therapy, I was uh someone has talked about your fingernails scraping the carpet where I'm being pulled.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing this, I'm not sharing myself with some busybody therapy person, probably female, probably white, probably in their 50s or 60s or something.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not doing this, I don't want to do this, but I was hemorrhaging.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: The little baby me clearly knew there was somebody called a mother that I had begun to attach with in those 16, 18 months, and I of course had no knowledge of it, but I must have connected with her my pupils breast milk, because we know actually babies can identify the breast milk of a mother from hundreds of others, it's just really really and touch, so all the five senses had actually bonded with her, and so when she left, I must have cried and cried and cried because I was tired, I pooed, and this person didn't come to change me, to feed me, to put me to sleep, and I would have cried, and I would of course I have no knowledge whatsoever of this, but something had happened, and so she left, she'd gone.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: So something has set something up inside of me where I began to learn, Chris, that and this is all so unconscious, people, so totally, totally unconscious.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: But I learned to build a force field around me that I didn't understand.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, Chris, I'm at university and I'm a law student, you know.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm gonna be eligible.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I was thinking, you know, why have these other guys got girlfriends and I don't have a girlfriend?
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't I have a girlfriend?
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not that I'm quite handsome, and some of those ugly guys, sorry, those ugly guys have got girlfriends.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: Why come?
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: I had no idea that what had I built this force field around me where I don't share me with people.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly don't let my heart go to people.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, I had no idea about the dynamics of that.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: I call it my ready break force field.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah?
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so I didn't let people get near me or get close at all.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't know that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Let me just pause there.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, thank you, Gary.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing it.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, resonate really deeply with a couple of the things you said there.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, the um the abandonment side, you know, it said it's sort of 16, 18 months, such a huge trauma.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: But you She didn't abandon me.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: She loves me.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's terms like that that I'm reading from Balby that I'm trying to abandon me, she didn't reject me, it's not loss, and it's just yeah, but if you soften it a bit, actually she did leave.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's just the words don't seem to fit.
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I I really hear you, you know, someone who um my mum left, I think, uh, when I was two, and again when I was four, and then sort of finally at you know, five and a half, six when her her and my dad divorced.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_03: I don't remember that, but likewise I don't have a memory of her being there.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that's quite a thing.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's sort of a lot of the time it's the uh it's not as an event, a traumatic event or memory, it's purely the absence, it's the um absence of that connection, as you said, uh with your five senses.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: So really resonate deeply with that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for sharing it.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you when you came to England then, when you reconnected with with mum and dad in England, um, did you say you were around six?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, around six, and again you use those terms which I can't identify with those terms Chris is used in abandonment.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they're exactly right, Chris.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: When you just said connected, well, the point is I never connected back.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I met these people, and my sister said that's a mum that I have no idea.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I had those back there.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: Aunties, grandparents, uncles, I didn't know they were called aunties, grandparents, they were just people that looked after me.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So coming to England, there is to these these these these strangers, and I now begin to understand what a mum and a dad is, but because of their own conflict in relationship, um I don't really want too much of that, and I never reattached to them, um, Chris, quite simply.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so they did.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: I lived really with the threat of s of separation and divorce, it felt like for most of my life growing up, Chris.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_00: And eventually around age 10, that question, which of course still stays with me, who would you like to live with when we separate?
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the child is given that that that question to make a decision, and it's just I mean, this is I'm now 63, nearly 64, and that still resonates with me.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Who do you want to?
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's trauma at its at its height.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I live with domestic violence, and I I'm scared of my dad.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: I was the oldest boy, and two older sisters, then me, then a younger brother who was born over here.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so sibling rivalry, because he felt closer to my mum than I was, which of course I envied.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I couldn't go to my parents and ask for anything I got him to ask, because but there's all sorts of dynamics that that that was playing out there.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: But essentially, what had happened was this little Gary had created these layers and layers and layers.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: So if somebody said stand up the real Gary, I don't know which is the real Gary, really.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know, is it that one?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I knew I was on an unstoppable journey to try and find the real me.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because the layers that I gave to people was this one.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_00: If you're new to my my my systems, this is the person.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you've been with me for a bit, I might get you, but few people ever got into see the real me.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem was, Chris, even I didn't know the real inner Gary.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And those that understand what I'm saying can resonate with this.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Every now and then I saw this little boy, even me as the adult, and I knew I could like you.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I see you, you're nice, aren't you?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: You're a nice gone, gone, gone back in, and it's just I know there is a nice guy in there.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: I need to find him, I want to find him, it's unstoppable.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that was so powerfully unstoppable, Chris, that despite the kicking and screaming, I had to go into therapy because I then am going through a separation and the divorce potentially is happening, which is nothing this can't happen.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: This can't happen, and then I have this older son that well, son who is getting close to ten, and oh my goodness, something I'd vowed never to happen, because I'm called Chris, I'm not gonna get married, because marriage is for those nice people over there, but now that ain't coming near me, because I'll have female friends, but don't call them girlfriends, because girlfriends become fiancees, become wives, and I ain't gonna married anyway, because and unconsciously, people you give your heart to leave you.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, I then experienced my parents divorcing, they got back together sometime later, Chris, and they divorced each other again.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then my dad married somebody else, and he divorced her, and he got back with her.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: Now all this is happening up to my in my twenties.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's why this thing called marriage, and I'm actually a Christian as well, but now that ain't going near me, that's not and so I'll have female friends and all so Chris.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is really I laugh at myself because I created what I call my tempo angel figure.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: Any future girlfriend, not wife, because no, not even girlfriend, sorry, I'm getting it all wrong.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: Female friend, you mustn't say girlfriend, because girlfriends could become fiances, and but no, that ain't so any female friend must have these ten attributes.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: She must have, she must have, she must thank you.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember what most of them are.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: But you see, that's my unconscious way of avoiding females getting close to me.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: We can go to the cinema, we can do things, but we can't, etc.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that was the dynamics going on for me, Chris.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: And when my boy was nearly ten and I'm going through a separation, a divorce, it was the biggest nightmare in my life that quite simply I died.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I died.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: I literally did not want to live.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I I I really wanted the car to crash, and I did not want to live.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was the most painful experience to see history repeating itself.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: How's that happened, Chris?
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: Is it in the water or the tea?
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_03: Oh thank you, Gary, for your honesty and sharing.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_03: I think uh I resonate very deeply.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I a long a long while ago I saw a great podcast, one of Piers Gross's podcasts, about the mother wound.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: And um I've uh it unlocked a a box for me in my therapy and and uh in my development journey as well to really understand that there's you know, mum left a lot when I was young off to boarding school at seven.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_03: When I finally came back from boarding school at 13, she died within a year of a brain tumour.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_03: And so many of those sort of abandonments by the feminine, if you like, not just the mother, but in boarding school, the lack of of femininity that was allowed, you know, either from men, from women, um this kind of shutting down of anything that was uh any kind of appropriate touch, any connection.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_03: And it had been so absent in my life that as you say, when you get into your twenties, you're uh for me it showed up in a very similar way, and that I I couldn't um I couldn't uh relate you know in a romantic way to to women to girls, women at all.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um they were kind of head up held up on a pedestal uh sort of slightly far away from me, but but they were kind of untouchable, unreachable, and uh so was the feminine part of me, the the soft, kind, connective, uh nurturing part was was was was long gone as well.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I I really hear you.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: No, I really get that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I I really want our listeners to hear this.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's never a criticism of our parents for me.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I say this to my clients before you criticize your parents, what you must do is look at the parents that parented them.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Because what you'll see is, and this my pen is my baton.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I have to get it right.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've I've sometimes been counseling a lot of Americans, and I've been saying baton in the relay race, the athletics race, baton, and they had no idea what I was talking about until many sessions later.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, baton.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: There's something in the relay race, Chris, of something that gets passed on down the generational line.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: So there's an intergenerational.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_00: So parents likely experience some stuff, including abandonment, somewhere back there.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: And we resolve as parents to do the very best for our children.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's the point we really need to hold on to.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Mostly our parents endeavor to do the best that they can do, they don't really set out most of them to hurt.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the things that they've been handed and they've tried to filter off the worst excesses and resolve this will not happen to my children.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is they filtered off only so much, but there's still a whole heap of stuff that gets handed on to the children, so it's never a criticism of parents, but the the the the the the fact is there are wounds that they're carrying which get somehow passed on.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: down the generational line as wounds to the children.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I offer to my clients.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Let's look at those wounds.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you, Gary.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_03: It's so powerful to I had to go through a lot of anger towards my my parents in my therapeutic journey, but that's really healthy.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_03: And to come back together and you know I've I've my relationship with my dad's never been better.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_03: I've healed with my mum's spirit.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_03: She's no longer with us.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_03: But you can you they don't have to be around for you to do the healing work.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_03: In fact it's easier because they can't answer back.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: Chris that that's a powerful point you just made as a offer either way.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: You don't Chris that's really powerful what you just said because there's a lot of certainly my clients that are grieving because it's ended now they've died.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_00: I can never get closure.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's not true.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: That is not true at all.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: There are different processes but you can actually really healthily deal with a lot of those things you're carrying as unresolved because they're no longer alive.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's really powerful what you just said.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you Carrie it's it's definitely been very very um a very important part of my my healing I think that the one that really unlocked the mother stuff with dad there was some basic anger there was some sort of abandonment stuff and uh particularly he didn't want me to go to boarding school mum did mum won the argument off I went at seven dad would have rather had me at home so I held some angry why didn't you fight for me?
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_03: Why why weren't you there for me?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_03: That resolved relatively quickly uh in the therapeutic process but the mum stuff only came when I started to find my my my inner feminine yes to identify it to meet it to start to listen to it and then suddenly mum made sense and and what mum had done was through a great act of love because she was really unwell and felt that she put me somewhere safe and that was boarding school and and suddenly my heart was open she didn't know any better you know at all she had at all she did her very best and and so now she lives with me in my heart my head and um you know we talk most days but uh yeah it's it's it's important what you've brought up about that.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean just so much coming out of your story.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: I mean just one of those things which is well just the unconscious big boys don't cry and of course if big boys don't cry then the adult man can't cry and yet those emotions are proper emotion so we're not really allowed to properly own anger.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: So Chris what happens is the unresolved unwe on the inability to express those emotions get locked into the body.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now you can't call those events trauma can you well I do because I say to people that trauma isn't what's happening between um Russia and Ukraine and Israel and Hamas trauma is the six year old whose action man or the little girl whose whatever the toy is is taken by the little girl the little boy down the road and when you go to get it at their house a father um opens the door and then slams the door in your face saying it's not yours it's my child's and your child your parents your dad doesn't go and rescue it and you're telling me about that 30 odd years 40 odd years later in the therapy room that was trauma and it got locked into the body and so what Bessel vant is saying we remember trauma less in words and more very much it's locked in the body and there is actually a way to find a way to get it out you know and and a key thing also that you were saying is the mother Chris is is really significant but I need people to keep hearing that it's not a criticism but mother is different to a father and it it's not a sex it's just the fact that this baby Chris this baby Gary was in her tummy for nine months ish before it came out so actually people the bonding the stuff or the not bonding was happening during that nine month period in utero before baby even came out so the stuff of what's going on between in mom's life with uh whoever partners are is going through to the baby in the umbilical or whatever the thing it is impacting the baby so a lot of the work I do with the MDR the baby actually can do a journey through the wound to start to do some healing because trauma that happens so it is the case that really that significant attachment is gonna be a mother it's it's not taken away from the masculine hey dad is or now we don't want to get into the complexities of uh of of sexes and etc but that mother figure is significant and that other maleness for role modeling is also really significant as well yeah thank you you touched on a couple of things there Gary which uh so important for anyone listening and you know sort of really saved the day in my recovery like you I just didn't want to be here four years ago it was it was too much to break down and um uh you know you took the the body work so you know sort of Bessel Bandicult body keeps the score whether it's the MDR or you know I practice emotional freedom technique or somatic experiencing whatever it is so powerful the body stuff you also you also reference the inner child part so you know getting back to to the womb to you know some of the work I do with clients went back to past lives and ancestors and absolutely you know you've got to follow you say you follow you said before um don't don't look at your parents look at their parents and and start to draw these lines of um uh you know what's baked into us nature nurture so really fascinating thank you for those um key points and and the brain and the body will lead us that sounds odd what do you mean by that Gary if we're willing to be a little bit vulnerable you know just get these clever club therapists out of the way because the body really does know how to heal us the brain knows what to do with in the hands of some skilled therapists is not really the it's the skilled therapist yes but in the hands of a skilled therapist your your body the somatic as you say and really the brain can heal the stuff of 50 60 70 years ago five years ago it it it can using one of the different different processes and it just so happens one of them that I use is EMDR but the somatic and and various others wow yeah it's some good stuff it's it's never too late I think with healing and um so so many times in my own journey with others I've spoken to they diff they've sort of written themselves off they feel there's no way back like you say they're trying to heal with someone who's no longer around that there is always a way to do it energetically with the body thank you Gary because I think that's important for for people to hear.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_03: And but I'd love to you know just segue a little bit for your own journey then so you mentioned you know because we want to talk about sex love and porn addiction so that's a real specialism for you and it's it's a really great topic.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: You you mentioned that as you came out into your 20s you know a a female friend could become a girlfriend could become a fiance could become a wife so you were you were you were holding things at bay you know obviously you've talked about your mum and and and the attachment side of things how then did you move in your in your sex porn and love journey how did that take you on your personal side through to the work that you now do as a specialist in that area yeah th thanks for that question Chris um the dichotomy if I put my my my hands like this to fit it in the camera is the lawyer but somebody who was really interested in helping people counseling as well but they were both helping people but coming up through youth clubs maybe churches whatever talking to people was naturally me so one paid the bills the other didn't but I enjoyed the one that didn't more so I go on this journey to start to um volunteer at relate all I knew was I wanted to become one of these things called a sexologist.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what that is but I just sounded and the work of talking because as a youth sort of helping young people I just enjoyed talking about sex which was bizarre for somebody growing up in my family where there's some kissing on the television and it's just what are they doing?
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh turn the channel over and that of course set up my view of the human body nakedness nudidity and you don't let your parents know that you've seen something so a torn up nudie magazine in the park when we're playing football and oh look at this what was that what is that because the best for me was the library and because there was no sex education from my parents at all and when your body's doing stuff and it's changing and you need to know the brain is saying I need to understand that I brought to the library of course and now you're looking at the biology books and there's images and pictures of biology of but it's sexual reproduction.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so how do I get this book to the desk and get it stamped it's just biology Gary it's it's just yeah but as a 10 11 year old it's not so that's my journey really and then coming across the images of at the time it was magazines not the internet you know that nudie magazine as we called it and then as boys we hid it and the to go back and look at it is just and the strangest thing Chris I still remember the excitement but I didn't go on to have a sex porn addiction and I don't I don't know how and why um probably my maybe my Christian faith etc I don't know but I didn't and so my journey is is is more I want to help people and as the lawyer clinical negligence quite specialist acting for NHS trust and um changing sidetrack for the patients I was helping win in tens of thousands even a million pounds of compensation for people but that wasn't giving me the satisfaction somehow and then over here the human element of being able to see that this couple coming at relate possibly divorce or whatever and they've got children I realize I guess and again it feels so unconscious because I can't even remember myself thinking this way but there's money to try and make the pain of the operation that went wrong that I've helped to win for you that's great.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you Gary really appreciate your work as there but then over here the couple whose relationship and somehow I could make a small impact into that that human element made a significant difference to me Chris so I train in relationship and that was just an obstacle course really Chris to get to the sex therapy.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: Again I don't know how that came about for me to be interested in talking about sex but hey Gary before you become a sex therapist sex therapy you've actually got to train as a counsellor oh really all right then let's do that and so I do that for a number of years go on to do the training in sex therapy it just was such a natural adjunct to working with sex working with couples so each one really working with singles working with couples but you can't just work with a couple because the casualty sex is always the first casualty when there's conflict but we're very English and I can call myself very English because I've been over here for over 50 odd years and sex is just not but now let's talk about how's sex going for you guys.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Oh Gary and it's just Gary you may need to tone it down a bit because people talk about what you do in the bedroom and no let's just talk about sex.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm much more open and willing I do calm it down a bit because I realize they're not in the same place as you Gary talking about sex all day.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I do change the language and we we we but the sex side but people aren't gonna offer you sex until they realize it's a topic you're comfortable with so I I feel my way until I've built a good therapeutic alliance with the clients and I can go in and say hey tell me about sex before you go and I do it in a nice way but then of course coming out of the sex the casualty of sex and the porn Chris really what I'm doing is doing a stepping stone that just said they were just natural adjunct to being added for the wholeness of the person in front of me and I really wanted to help that couple and that individual to be the best that they can be during our short life here on planet earth.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that's really lovely Gary but that's the truth of it the helping profession I just want to help people in my interview as a trainee solicitor and actually it's the same with therapy.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: I just want to leave a lasting legacy in people's lives as many as possible.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: Is that arrogant don't think so and if it is I'm okay with that because I think there's a better quality of life that we can all enjoy and it's the client that designs that life not me no thank you guy that's that's really helpful and what you've done is open the door a little bit there to to look at those sort of because sex porn love you know we we put little slashes between them but they're very big and different topics and I think the first one you opened the door on I'd like to talk about so porn you talked about you know nudie mags and everything you said I felt it straight there.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_03: I mean to learn what everything I knew about um sex and and um and women came from from porn you know came from uh nudimags and porn yeah yeah 80s and 90s there was no you know I was at boarding school there was nothing coming from home um and it's all very stiff up a little there anyway um and uh you know got a bit better in my teens but um still make making a real a real kind of mess of it as I went and and until I stopped watching any kind of porn or consuming any kind of porn about three years ago as a very giving up an addiction if you like I noticed that my porn got progressively harder and harder and harder over the years um you know no pun intended and it's just um like to the point at which one day you look at it and you go fucking hell how'd I get here yeah and and it was all just tri it needed uh for me uh I needed to feel like I was doing something wrong to to kind of get off on it and um and I think could you speak to the porn side of addiction and that would be very helpful.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_00: No and let me begin for our listeners to hear this Chris which is really important porn is not about porn the sex that you're chasing and trying to get more and consume as much it's not about sex what you're doing.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: The love behaviors that you're doing ain't about love as such what's happening is those things called porn and sex I call the equivalent of the drug taker's needle the use of porn and sex is the needle to get the chemicals into your body whereas with drugs with alcohol you're bringing in the chemicals into your body with porn and sex it's the self-manufactured chemicals which are so potent and I have to just say that they are so potent that's why many people particularly f the female partners you know don't necessarily all believe there's such a thing as a porn addiction it's just men behaving badly well I beg to differ a bit because what happened back there it was initially back in childhood 10, 11 12 I came across my dad's and he never knew and I kept going back and and yeah and I'm not hurting anybody and then you develop and you add masturbation to it and then the brain gets used to that and it says ooh there's a bit more over there and then two years on you can't believe you're viewing the stuff which you looked at and said no that's too but what you've done over the years is you've crossed boundaries you've taken risks and whilst you were doing the behaviors and your parents in childhood were just in the other room or downstairs the brain with the body was pumping this stuff of and your arousal template your developing sexual was being shaped and in it was taking risks and crossing boundaries and so constantly now as that now develops and you're getting that high from the dopamine the oxytocin you're escaping from your problems so a number of things are being set up which is when I feel negative and I do this behavior feeling behavior feeling in fact it's we started out with behavior a f a negative feeling and then in the middle was thinking what should I do because I don't like the way I'm feeling bullying being compared to another sibling board in school what a parents arguing going through whatever the thing is that made me feel my brain then remembered this thing I came across viewing these images or even alcohol or my PlayStation or whatever the compulsive thing is that you you learn to to to do and the brain said let's go and do that.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: So when I feel I think about what to do and I do that.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_00: Over time feel do no longer needs a brain intervention it just when I feel this is what I do feel do.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: So they've now got paired up I don't have to think so you created a neural pathway think about it like a hamster wheel when I feel this is what I do and that's got set up but all along it looked like you were doing porn and sexual things but actually it was a way of getting the chemicals into your body and then over time of the hamster wheel the physiology of the body got changed to become used dependent on some really potent chemicals in childhood often during those early developing years where you've already got these these um puberty hormones shooting through your body and then you're gonna add these extra really potent ones and they now set up the template for your sexuality to a great extent and constantly you want a new high or actually it's not always new it's to maintain the same high but the drug taker and the type of drug they were taking five years ago is rarely the same type and level that they're taking five years later.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same with porn except it's more about the novelty the newness the chase that creates the pump and so you find yourself moving into I never use the word harder stuff.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can get lost in this soft porn hard porn so it's not a term that I always use and I know you you you you you you correct it in use etc but it's about whatever my brain says that's novel let's go through that gateway and once you've opened that gateway even if it's got a and yet somehow a year later you find yourself absolutely in there and constantly the brain's looking for more because what it's trying to do is maintain the high yeah so the pawn is a way of managing your emotions it's not the pawn it's the chemical fix it's the way of managing so the board in school and the unconscious Trauma and the stuff that's happened back there.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you who choose the compulsive behavior like you thought.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's your brain that chooses it.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: So another friend of Chris's could say, Hey Chris, I came across this bottle in my dad's living room.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's called whiskey.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Taste this, Chris.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: It makes me tummy warm, doesn't it?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't it nice?
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Chris tastes it and that's disgusting.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: It tastes like perfume.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, let's go and play football.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next day, Chris says, Look what I found, these magazines, and hey friend.
• 45:47
  SPEAKER_00: And the friend looks at it and says, Oh, that's fun.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: Next day, Chris says, Shall we look at them again?
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: The friend says, Nah, Chris, that's boring.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go and play for why did one gravitate to Horn, another one porn or whatever?
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's not you, it's not me.
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's not us that chooses, it's the brain that chooses the compulsive behavior that's right for it.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, guy.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: That's so helpful.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_03: Um, very much on a personal level now, I'm kind of uh connecting to this that with the number of addictions that I had over the years, I I spoke to someone else about this the other day, and and what I said was I started stacking addictions.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_03: So you know, with with the porn side of things and masturbation, you know, growing up in sort of an institution, very repressed sexual sort of institution, single sex for a while, then then mixed gender, etc., is you say that the the start of porn and masturbation is is risky.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: You have to do it so because if anyone notices, you might get the shit button out of you, or you get shamed in front of everyone, etc.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_03: So yeah, you say the heart starts going, and then for me, then went smoking, then went drinking, then went drugs, and then I would be stacking those.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_03: So I on an evening I might be gambling, smoking, drinking, eating to excess, then looking for a strip club.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_03: Then you know, then then then so there's just more and more and more, and in the end, there is sort of the hungry ghosts, as Gabor Mate uh talks about it with addiction.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_03: It doesn't matter how how much you stack, you can't get there.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_03: So they don't get there anymore.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: And the point is, Tris, yeah, that's so great what you've the point that you just made, which is there's always pretty much, folks, a co-addiction waiting in the wings.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I say porn isn't about porn, sex isn't about sex.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you get rid of the porn and the sex through a 12-steps recovery program, um through some other recovery program, there's one waiting in the wings to take its place because what it's trying to do is manage your emotions and to self-soothe.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So get rid of one, and through the back door will come another.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: So in a recovery program, my recovery program, the Kairos recovery program, I'm always watching what's gonna come through the back door.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to know what those co-addictions are.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Was it my my game consult when I was 10, 11, and I played for hours, etc.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's what's gonna come through the back because it's all about giving you the chemical high.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I use that, I call this, Chris, my mathematical formula, which is the word shame plus narcissism equals porn addiction, sex addiction.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: Shame plus narcissism equals porn stroke sex addiction.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: So in any recovery program, remember there's two parts to a recovery for me.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: You gotta deal with the childhood events, even the child who says I had a perfect upbringing.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not trying to find dirt or problems.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I often use the situation of the the the the the the the curate, the minister, with the child living in the manse and the beautiful family, etc.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: But every time the telephone rings, the six-year-old learned that dad's gotta stop running cars along the ground with him or playing football outside or playing with him because the phone equals a parishioner needs my dad, and of course that's dad's job, so dad's gonna go.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what's the problem there?
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so lovely upbringing, Gary.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: But it's when I get older, and now I'm having real, real, real issues in my relationship with my partner, and if you think back about the action man or the doll or the equivalent of whatever the child down the road took and didn't give it back, why am I in marital conflict?
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Because whenever she uses my toothpaste or toothbrush or my coffee cup and doesn't put it back, I get so angry.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: What's that got to do with my toy that was taken by the child?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't mind her using it or him using it as long as he puts it back.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Therapist.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, even that's a bit over the top for me.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: What's going on?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's nothing about the coffee cup or the toothbrush or the tooth.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's something back there that happened that so we're never trying to find some some some some dirt really.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: It's just about the family growing up.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: Even the most beautiful family.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the way your brain interpreted your parents' way of trying to be the best that they could do.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: But somehow your brain received some form of hurt, pain, whatever it may be.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so trying to find that is really those things are really important because it gives you clues to how the brain then goes on to set up a self-soothing.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: So deal with the past through, I do history taking.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is one to five, and then the rest is the form that you use, whether it's it's somatic, EMDR, whatever it may be, then to deal with the the the trauma that got set up.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_00: Only later on do you look at some recovery program really to deal with the past first.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Deal with the past first, otherwise you're just trying so hard with white knuckle in it.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm doing, Chris, is gripping the sides of the chairs and knuckling, I don't want to do this, I'm not doing this anymore, I'm not doing this anymore.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Years of sobriety under my belt now.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: Uh 12 steps, attendance, really good, and that's a part of my recovery program, so don't hear me mocking it.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: But the problem is, you then get some bad news about a relative getting a diagnosis.
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: You now get news about you being made redundant.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: You now hear about your child not and you that and now your brain says, Come on, let's go and do that thing we used to do back there when we was upset and etc.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: And it can open it all up again.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Gary, that could apply to anyone, couldn't it?
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, potentially, but if you've gone after the stuff that set it up originally, yeah, there's nothing for it to lock back into because you really have resolved it.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, no, I I really hear that.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think the in the the coaching work that I do with emotional freedom technique matrix reimprinting, once you take down on those big T traumas well, but they're not big T traumas, but they're a big tree in the in the sort of forest of you know um not gabblomatic things that you know, not why the addiction, but why the pain.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_03: So we have to find the pain if you like when it's starting.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes it's strange things.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_03: One of my favourites.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_03: Um you know, I I in my coaching I witnessed some really big, awful things that happen to people, but often it's it's not what happens, it's what you make it mean.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_03: And so one of the examples I use is um, you know, family have gone to the beach, um, and uh there's a brother and a sister, little girl, little boy.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_03: Um little girls a little bit naughty at the beach, so afterwards the whole family go for ice cream, but she isn't bought one.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_03: In that moment, she's actually had loads of other big T trauma around it, but the pivotal point in her life was I didn't get the ice cream.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_03: Mum and dad don't love me, I'm bad.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_03: That's the belief that was made that day.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_03: And so everything that came after in that kind was pinned on that one story, and once we broke that down, all the trees fell.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, that they all started to make sense, and it's it's fascinating, isn't it?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely fascinating, that's absolutely it.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I my similar story, like yours, Chris, would be and then we were all around the table with all my cousins, and my dad and my mum shouted at me to to to keep my mouth shut when I'm and I was so I was so embarrassed I went red.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_00: And whether it's no ice cream or it's being shouted across, and we would look and laugh at that now, but that was a significant event in that chart.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's what his or her brain made of that situation that is really significantly important to address.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and and with so you mentioned the Kairos um recovery program that you you've set up and run, and you've you've become very well known in this area.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_03: I know your podcasts are very well watched, and um uh so you we talked about kind of going backwards to go forwards, if you like, um, and dealing with the root cause stuff before any kind of 12-step program or recovery program.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_03: What what do you is there anything else you'd like to talk about from from the Kairos sort of way of doing things that you introduce that you bring in along the way?
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, when I when I was trained in porn sex therapy, would I what I I would attribute um Thadius Burchard, I would say, really, in terms of porn sex addiction in this country, um what, 15 years ago when I trained with him.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: But then I was going on and I was I was doing the history take in, and it's an extensive history take in of 188 questions over three sessions to build a profile of the little person to understand what happened back there.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's the key question.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: What happened back there?
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as I did the as I got the information and I gave the hypothesis, we could then move on to put them on a recovery program.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized this is ludicrous, Gary.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: You've diagnosed and found what the little T or big T trauma event is, but you're not working with it.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: And so I say to people, so many recovery programs still not really looking at it from an open quote.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have to keep saying that because you you're with me, Chris.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know it doesn't need to be this big trauma event, it could be denied ice cream with the rest of the children, so the little tea thing.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really important to address those things first, and so I recognize that there's still so many not really addressing the trauma and just putting people on a 12-step recovery program or their own recovery program.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I realized I was doing that for a period and I said, This is ludicrous, this is absolutely ludicrous.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've diagnosed what happened, why the brain started self-soothing, but I'm not working with it, and so what what I realized really was um people need to be able to access some help, so I will offer diagnostics so as to understand what happened back there, but if folks don't want to do that, there is a recovery program over here that I need it to be accessible by the multitudes across the oceans, across the world.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so I set about creating this video on demand program.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: By that time, people got used to binging their box sets, etc.
• 57:27
  SPEAKER_00: You don't binge this course, by the way, it's a one per week because the reflecting time between listening to each of the video recording and the workbook, the most important part of the work is the reflection.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's where you're gonna get insight and understanding based upon the work the things that I'm offering to you.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so I created this online um well on demand, pre-recorded with workbook.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you do want to have some homework review sessions with me, you can.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but you can do this recovery program from anywhere in the world in the comfort of your armchair, so to speak, um, without a therapist, but you can have input.
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_00: If you're not disciplined, then you might want to book in homework sessions with me from time to time just to check how you're doing, and there's a sense of feeling there's somebody you're accountable to as well to keep the momentum going.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: So that is available.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's probably is the world's first um video on demand um program, and it is being used by hundreds and hundreds.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_00: So I have the beauty of being able to say it works, um, because hundreds and hundreds are using it and have used it all over the world.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the vast majority don't know about it, and so you know, um, but for for the purposes of of us folks, I just want people to hear, but porn and sex is only one aspect.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, I haven't even gotten near love addiction.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_00: Chris and I having such a lovely time.
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much on our list we'd love to have talked about.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have to come back.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, love addiction.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about sex or porn, it's insecure attachment.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: And yet, because we're human beings, Chris, we were designed to be in relationship with other people.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_00: If we doubt it, look at what COVID lockdown did when we couldn't.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the mental health issues are even now still just coming out because of lockdown.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so when insecure attachment stuff gets set up in childhood, we desperately try to, like me, build a force field where I'm just an island on my own and I can- But why can't I have a girlfriend?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_00: Why are all those other got girlfriends?
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_00: We were made to be in relationship with other people in whatever form that takes.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so the love addiction is something about perhaps, and I don't want to be too stereotypical, but maybe a lot more females will use this love addiction.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's not really, don't want to get too it is a lot of males and females, but a lot more females will identify more with the love addiction side because it's making sense as to why they're giving up sex so frequently, and then he will take or the partner will take, and then they seem to be gone and they feel rejected.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: So the very thing I wanted to avoid has happened, and the repeat wound again from being rejected, and they're flattened, but eventually they get back up, but they go back to a dating site, and they're so it's not about sex, it's about trying to find people that will fill a void that's inside of me.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna hold up quite a stark picture, Chris, because it it cuts through a lot of my description of insecure attachment.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_00: There's a void that's gets set up in here, and you're trying to fill it with people, with things, but it never gets filled.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so the love addiction is trying to interact with other people because when you interact, they give you a sense of being wanted, accepted, and then you perhaps give up sex, but when the relationship ends so quickly, you you you're hurt again, and it keeps that cyclical pattern keeps happening in the way that you're trying to get others to fill that hole with a sense of feeling love and acceptance and affection.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_00: And the boarding school folks will be potentially doing that because of the void created by the the the separation too soon, and they're trying to fill it with different things.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: Porn is just one of them, sex is just one of them, love addiction is just one of them, but there are lots of other compulsive.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really how I I guess um I I distinguish the chiral center, really, is to say the inner child stuff is is really, really crucially important before you go on to a recovery program.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely a 12 steps is a vital part of a recovery program.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely vital.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_00: But before that, you've got to deal with the inner child stuff.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Gary.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's really really nicely put.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think just as we start to bring our time together to a close today, um you know, one thing we did touch on was that was very much whether it's it's um just awareness is increasing or whether sex love porn addiction is on the increase.
• 1:02:55
  SPEAKER_03: You know, as a as a specialist in this area, what's what's your take on on you talked about sort of post-COVID stuff coming out of the woodwork.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_03: What's your take on um you know how we are at the moment, especially with programs that have been on like adolescence or you know, any of this stuff that's really captured the um uh captured the kind of um zeitgeist of what's going on at the moment?
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_00: Chris, porn sex addiction is impacting our nine-year-olds, up to 75-year-old.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: This stuff is being exchanged on uh in the playground, on phones, etc.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_00: It is a major problem.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_00: During COVID lockdown, porn sex addiction increased exponentially.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_00: It is at pandemic levels, it's a serious, serious problem.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the behaviors get passed on to the next generation, the children.
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: We know that.
• 1:03:50
  SPEAKER_00: It absolutely does.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: It is at pandemic levels, but it isn't after dinner conversation stuff that you can just talk about very openly.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_00: So shame, remember that mathematical formula, shame plus narcissism equals porn sex and so shame means hide, hidden.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: Don't share, don't attend 12 steps, don't share with after dinner with anyone, keep it hidden.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so the thing proliferates because you gotta stay in hiding because people will judge me.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then the narcissism element is I'm not saying my clients are narcissists and and um NPD, narcissistic depression.
• 1:04:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, what I'm saying is they will have traits that come out of narcissism because narcissistic behaviors mean me, me, I, I, me, myself, myself, I.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not always visible because it looks as if I'm doing for others, but what they're missing is but when I do for others, it's always conditioned on something coming back for me.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_00: And also the hiddenness of the behaviors, because others will judge me, means I'm in a closed room, and when I'm doing the material, not think about the person on the other side of that porn stuff that they're doing, I don't think about their life, how they came to be doing what they're doing.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: They're there to service me and I and more me, and more I.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's something there's something about recognizing we all need a help in hand at times in life, and it's not a weakness to hold our hands up and say I need help.
• 1:05:51
  SPEAKER_00: I did not want to go into therapy, absolutely, and anyway.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm a black man, I'm oh and I don't need this, and I absolutely needed the help.
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I say it's on the increase, significantly so.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, ease of access, the age range nine to 75 years.
• 1:06:13
  SPEAKER_00: Believe me, Fred is age 10 and he's never kissed a girl, and he's on the sex offenders register.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_00: What?
• 1:06:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, absolutely.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_00: They never kissed a girl.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a problem out there.
• 1:06:28
  SPEAKER_00: There is a big problem out there, and most parents have no idea of what their kids are doing on their room on their mobile phones.
• 1:06:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it is at pandemic levels, Chris.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_00: Really, yeah.
• 1:06:41
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you, Top C that's my that's my instinct.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_03: Just you know, I've got teenage daughters from what I see from the group chats, from thankfully they've they've managed to get through so far without a smartphone.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_03: And we're a part of smartphone free childhood, and um that's that's been helpful in many ways keeping some of it at bay, but it's a difficult subject.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think for me the the porn addiction changed a couple of things really really changed the game for me, which was you know that um uh you know understanding energetically As well, that that porn is made by the shadow for the shadow.
• 1:07:15
  SPEAKER_03: If it's made by the shadowy parts of us, for the shadowy parts of us, if you like, to get the heart going.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_03: And that there isn't, you know, people say the soft, there's hard, there's there's sort of female friendly, or there's couples.
• 1:07:27
  SPEAKER_03: Ultimately, it's from the shadow for the shadow.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that that really struck home for me that it needed for me to be a zero tolerance to it, you know, so none at all.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and the second thing was that energetically as well, that if someone is if you're you know masturbating and watching pornography, you are energetically in many ways performing a a rape and a non-c non-consensual sort of sex act with the people who are performing in in the scene.
• 1:07:57
  SPEAKER_03: And and whether people believe that or not say, Well, they you know they chose to do it, etc.
• 1:08:03
  SPEAKER_03: If you know anything about how porn is made and the kind of people that get pulled into, etc.
• 1:08:07
  SPEAKER_03: When that hit me, I suddenly realized that it, you know, between those two two big things, I couldn't do it anymore, it had to stop.
• 1:08:15
  SPEAKER_03: What came after that was you know, no porn meant no masturbation, meant my sex life drastically improved, you know, with my partner, and meant so many other things came out of it as well.
• 1:08:28
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, there is there's a journey.
• 1:08:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much on the other side of sobriety.
• 1:08:33
  SPEAKER_00: I use the term sobriety, um, that I don't even try and tell my clients, they just have a what do you mean?
• 1:08:40
  SPEAKER_00: And but part way through the program, they start to tell me the things that they're experiencing.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_00: I say, Yep, there's so much on the other side of sobriety, and it's it's and there's more so much more to come.
• 1:08:53
  SPEAKER_00: So much more to come.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:08:55
  SPEAKER_03: Well lovely.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_03: As we as we wrap up, then Gary, you know, for anyone who's interested in your work, wants to learn a bit more, wants to f work with you, etc., where should they go to to find your work?
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's this other um Kairos Therapy Kairos Centre, I understand, in London that does um other things.
• 1:09:15
  SPEAKER_00: So this is the website is www.kyroskai R O S Pythoncentre.com.
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_00: KairosHythoncentre.com.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's where I am.
• 1:09:29
  SPEAKER_00: My podcast is the um the sex pawn and love addiction podcast.
• 1:09:38
  SPEAKER_00: The sex pawn and love addiction podcast.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's it's probably up at um 50 something thousand downloads in in a short period of time.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_03: We'll make sure those links are in the uh show notes today so that people can find them easily.
• 1:09:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um but as we bring things to a close, Gary, I you know, could go for hours on this.
• 1:10:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's a great uh and interesting topic.
• 1:10:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I just wanted to honour your work, your journey, um, the time you've given today to help to give people a bit of an overview and um and some of the really sort of heartfelt points that you've pulled out here, very much the sort of humanity behind you know addiction and the reasons we seek um coping mechanisms, survival strategies, self-soothing, etc.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's been really enlightening.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you so much for your work, for your time today.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much, Chris.
• 1:10:29
  SPEAKER_00: And and I guess my my key thing is people please don't pigeon me, hole pigeonhole me in sex and porn.
• 1:10:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's just so happens the area that I'm more skilled in.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_00: But what I want you to recognize is you probably have some coping strategies that you've been using for managing the stuff that happened to you back there.
• 1:10:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love and others in the practitioners um directory would love to help you to better understand you.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can better understand you, now you can go after the stuff.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: But what you can't see, you have no hope of changing.
• 1:11:14
  SPEAKER_00: So my work really is to move as much from the unconscious into the conscious, into the visible, because what you can now see in the visible, we've used a highlighter pen, and now, Chris, can you see that now?
• 1:11:29
  SPEAKER_00: Ah, now I can see it, and now get a chance to go after it.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: But when I couldn't see it, I just kept self-soothing and trying to be the best that I could do with the impediments of life because I didn't understand what was going on.
• 1:11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So my flavour of therapy is Gary would love to help move as much from the unconscious, from the unseen, from the invisible into the conscious, into the visible, into the scene.
• 1:11:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then we go after it with a form of whichever is right, such as EMDR is the one that I tend to use.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_03: Gary, that's wonderful.
• 1:12:06
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for your time today.
• 1:12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'd like to thank everybody for listening or watching as well.
• 1:12:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it's been the Seen and Heard podcast, a conversational series.
• 1:12:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we've been with the wonderful Gary McFarlane.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_03: I'm Chris Brach.
• 1:12:19
  SPEAKER_03: Um, wishing you a fabulous day.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_03: If you want to find out more, check out the show notes.
• 1:12:23
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much for watching and watching this.