Latest / Becoming Flame: Where Sensuality, Sovereignty, and Sacred Power Ignite / The Power of Erotic Agency with Anisa Varasteh
Transcript
- Kait Tregenza: I really loved that conversation. really, I really got so much out of it that a lot of the time that our reframes around our agency can come from that moment where we choose to pause, choose a different way of looking and thinking, a different perspective, checking in with the body, all of this stuff we know, right? All of this stuff we know, but it's So hello Anissa, welcome! This episode of Becoming Flame is brought to you by Fennex. Fennex is a ritual luxury house devoted to erotic feminine embodiment. We create alchemical intimacy oils and functional fragrances infused with speduric botanicals designed to soften the nervous system, open the body, and awaken life force vitality. Our formulations are crafted as tools of self-initiation. They are not cosmetic. Anisa Varasteh: Hi Kate, thank you for having me. It's such a privilege to be here today. Kait Tregenza: privilege is all mine, is all mine. I'm so excited. preparing for this interview, it was like, I cannot ask three hours worth of questions to this woman. ⁓ But just know that I want to. I want to start all the way. I'm a mother of a very small child. And so for me, when I knew that you wrote literally Hi everybody and welcome to the Becoming Flame podcast. I your host, Kate Tregenza. ⁓ Today we have on the episode, Anis Variste. She is a clinical sexologist, psychotherapist, global speaker and published ⁓ Anisa Varasteh: Okay, all right, feel free. Kait Tregenza: whose work sits at the intersection of sexuality, relational intelligence, trauma recovery, and deep psychological growth. She is an immediate past president of the Society of Australian Sexologists in South Australia and New Zealand Territory, and the director of Relate Sexology in South Australia. Her practice isn't really about tips or surface level relationship fixes. And I think what you're going to hear from Anissa is that she's... How do you do it in the moment where you need to do it? 10 minutes later, not an hour later, not a month later, not in reflection later on. But how do you pause in that moment and instead of reacting, flying off the cuff. They are not decorative. They are designed to be felt. They are designed to shift. Each oil facilitates a cellular shift into relaxation and receptivity, activating and opening up an archetypal femininity that your body knows and is yearning to step into. Anisa Varasteh: Okay. Kait Tregenza: the parenting guide, the parenting book on this. I was not surprised at all. I made my own assumptions as to why you did that. Because especially your work in clinic is obviously adult focused. ⁓ I figure, and you're gonna correct me wherever I've made ⁓ incorrect assumptions, but I figured that you are seeing adults day in, day out in clinic, understanding all of the things that they're combating as adults. Just check in, just pause, just choose the answer based on agency. Anisa Varasteh: This. you Kait Tregenza: this wonderful speaker, this wonderful relational ⁓ psychotherapist that really hears what you're saying, twists it a little bit around and presents you a higher perspective for how to think about things, relate to things, and open deeper, deeper consideration into another way of thinking about it. So she's been recognized as South Australian Woman of the Year to watch. ⁓ These oils allow the body to open safely into sensual intelligence, magnetism and creative power. They open the libido and open creative sexual energy. When the body is safe, it softens. When it softens, it receives. When it receives, it creates. And when it creates, the entire world shifts. And I think... really understanding in that moment how... Okay, I might have self abandoned again, or I might have put myself last again, or I might not have been able to say, you know, I need this or that or the other without going back into that loop of trauma of like, ⁓ I did it again. ⁓ I did it again is really just say, okay, so how do I start testing how to trust myself? How do I rebuild my trust in self or how do I build it from the start? Or even how do I strengthen it? Because I think really what all have roots in childhood. Is that why you wrote the book? Anisa Varasteh: That's a very safe assumption to make, yes. ⁓ It's definitely one of the biggest reasons why I wrote the book because most often when people, adults come to see me and they present with sexual problems, it's not that these problems are rooted in things that have happened in adult, but they're related to... Kait Tregenza: and one of her state's leading sex therapists. I wanted to speak to her about really the heart of her work, because at the heart of it is a deep curiosity about how we show up in a relationship to ourselves, to others, to power and to desire. She's worked this out in an adult context, in the child context. She helps children and parents relate. She helps parents relate to children. She people relate to each other. We believe that women who sit deeply in their bodies, in their erotic intelligence and sovereignty, become powerful creators of their lives and the environments around them. Our products are initiations into that coherence. Luxury in experience. Devotional in use. Transformational in effect. Get yours now at fenex.com. That's P-H-E-N. came to me in everything that Anissa was saying was how you trust yourself. Anisa Varasteh: things that, especially social conditioning around sexuality. So the messages that we have directly, but most often indirectly absorbed from our environment about sex and sexuality. What it means to be a man, what it means to be a woman. So even around gender identity, gender roles. You know, what am I allowed to desire? And yes, yes. Kait Tregenza: is the foundation for how you live your life. She really has this wonderful knowledge around what erotic power is, erotic agency is. And rather than pathologizing sexual behavior or offering prescriptions, she invites people to slow down and listen to what their relational patterns are, their desires, their bodies, whatever it is that your body is trying to communicate to. She has this capacity to slow everything down. Her work is and whether you want to build a multi-million dollar business, whether you want to have 25 kids, if you do, whether you want to write a book, whether you want to find a new job, whether you want to enter a new relationship or whether you want to take your relationship that's on the brink of not working into a place where it's thriving again. I think the foundation to all of that is how do I trust myself to make the very best xx.com ⁓ what a big question. Anisa Varasteh: But also what are the things that I desire? Because this is one of the things that people come to me like I don't even know what I want. How can I understand that? So there are all of these things that I strongly believe are formed based on the interactions that we have with our environment and they are especially absorbed in childhood and adolescent years through the atmosphere, through Kait Tregenza: Mmm. definitely not just about having better sex or fixing relationships. No, she is all about understanding what desire, withdrawal, conflict and longing are actually trying to say. What is shame trying to say to you? How do you create safety to receive those messages without even further shame? So whether she's working in trauma survivors or high performers who are struggling with intimacy, Anissa, ⁓ next step for me with the information that I have. And if it's not, then that's okay. I get to make a new choice and I get to make a new choice. And for me, what I'm going to do is go away and really start becoming hyper aware of the ways I make choices and decisions and actions with the best possible set. Anisa Varasteh: micro moments of interactions with our parents, our caregivers, with our peers, media especially. So this book is to help parents teach skills to children. This is not so much about what to tell your child about sex, but this is about what skills to teach them. Kait Tregenza: approaches relational dynamics as a source of information rather than pathology. And you'll hear her say that over and over and over. Well, that's just information. That's just information. And so she's really about turning emotions or triggers or reactions back into data that serves you to get to where you want to go. of tools and resources that I have in that moment. And then if it doesn't go how I wanted it to, to just let that go and to be like, okay, now I get to choose again. Now I get to make another set of choices of decisions with the resources that I have available into the best knowledge and tools and capacity that I have now. And the outcome or the expectation Anisa Varasteh: so that they can have more fulfilling relationships in adulthood, including intimate relationships and sexual relationships. Kait Tregenza: I love in the research that I did about coming to work with Anissa in this podcast, Sheila's helping people ask really great questions. Where am I performing instead of inhibiting? Where does my yes come from? Is it fear or is it choice? And what version of myself have I kept hidden because I wasn't allowed to exist in another way? And that's sort of is very separate to the decision that I'm making now and the trust that I can have in that. And I think when you've had a life where things didn't go how you wanted them to go, it is so easy to self-diagnose as I can't trust myself to make decisions anymore. And decoupling, the outcome ⁓ the decision or from the choice ⁓ from the decision to trust yourself how ⁓ does our sexual preference or sexual desires and what we want get stamped into us opposed to something that choose for ourselves? Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Yeah, that's a very good question. So just want to clarify your question is how do our desires shape and how can we differentiate between something that we were told we should want versus what we truly want? Kait Tregenza: everything that she's worked with adults, she now helps parents to create sexually intelligent kids. And that is the name of her newest book, Raising Sexually Intelligent Kids. And we're going to talk about that and so much more today. Let's dive into it. Welcome to the podcast, Anisa Veraste. Anyway, I think that's the key to stop abandoning yourself. That's the key to stop waiting for somebody else to come and do it better than you. Yeah. And how much of that comes from trying to feel a secure attachment when we don't have secure attachment. Because I know for myself, previous to knowing my attachment style and working on my attachment style, I did a lot of things that I didn't even know I didn't like because I didn't know who my person was and what I liked. And I'm not even talking just intimately, I'm talking... Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: I'm excited. I'm excited for what that can mean for me, for all of us and how that changes things. ⁓ was a fantastic episode. The show notes can be found ⁓ the website, p-h-e-n-x-x.com ⁓ forward pages, forward slash podcast. We'll link it in the show below and you ⁓ can find them there. And otherwise, in all aspects of life. And so I'm wondering how attachment and childhood conditioning works with desire as an adult later. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, there's definitely ⁓ attachment, as in people who may not be familiar with the terminology, attachment, in like a bonding that we form with our parents in childhood, whether it's a healthy type of bonding or not, that can definitely have an impact on Kait Tregenza: I will catch you next week for another amazing conversation with another amazing woman or maybe myself. We'll see how it goes. Lots of love and ⁓ stop becoming flame. Anisa Varasteh: adulthood choices that we make, including our intimate relationships and sexual experiences that we have for sure. But I think that is not the only thing that shapes the way that we function erotically and sexually in adulthood. But yes, attachment definitely has an impact. And just as an example, we have learned early on in childhood that love and intimacy equates danger because maybe a parent who was supposed to be a source of safety and care and love, they were also abusive in any shape or form or not responsive to our needs, then there is this cognitive pattern formed, but also it can affect our nervous system. that intimacy equates risk and unsafety. So there is this pattern of getting closer to a loved one, a significant other, but at the same time pulling back. So that can definitely manifest in adulthood in this shape. Kait Tregenza: So you're seeing a lot of parents of children who may have experienced this kind of push-pull, ⁓ love-not-love, conditionality to the love, brings them out of a sense of intimacy with self-safety and intimacy, and then they go and have their own children. there's on one side, they're in therapy with you. So they know that there's a problem. You're helping them through that. How difficult though can it be? Because I'm assuming like if it's not easy to then override or change those patterns that you yourself inherited or you yourself received, and you know you want to do better by your children, you've read your book, you're coming to see you as someone who wants to get a better life, a better handle on these things. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. you Kait Tregenza: but it's really a hard thing to override. Does that create these loops of shame and re-traumatization around, know better, but I can't do better. And does that link into a, how does that re-traumatization actually occur for your patients as well? Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. So I think what you just said is an important part because if there is just awareness that you know I'm stuck in this pattern or in this loop intergenerational trauma or however you want to ⁓ to label it and I feel powerless to change that then yes that can lead to re-traumatization. But I think part of the work that I do with people is to find a sense of agency. And this is not about perfection. This is not about being a perfect parents because there is no such. It's about understanding firstly, my own needs as a human being first and foremost, and how to regulate my own nervous system. before responding to the needs of the people around me. Because if I am in a heightened state of nervous system, if I'm constantly anxious or panicky or numb, which is the other side of nervous system dysregulation, yes, yes, absolutely, then I may not, I am not able to make good decisions for myself and for my... Kait Tregenza: or oscillating between the two. Anisa Varasteh: my loved ones, including my children. So part of the work that I do is to support people to have a more regulated nervous system. And it's not about doing it right. It's about knowing what the body needs in any given moment. And it's about self-trust as well. Because most often, especially if there is a history of trauma, people have learned patterns of survival. and they have learned to ignore their own needs and their own wants, which includes the body's basic needs for rest and thirst, just drinking water and food and all of those things, to survive, to ⁓ put others' needs first. yes, I think that's just part of the work. It's not purely giving people information what to do, because that can add to shame. or can feel overwhelming. can't do this on my own, this is too much. But it's supporting them to implement it in a way that is meaningful for that person and that family. As well as one thing that I want to tell people, your listeners, is that ⁓ there is some research about attachment and how often parents need to be in tune with the needs of the child. So it's not that you need to be responding to the needs of the child 100 % of the time, that's just not practical because you may not even be around. So I think it's around 40 to 50 % of the time. yes, it's very surprising because I thought it would be much higher than that. So to form a secure attachment, you need to be attuned generally to the needs of your child, to the best of your ability. But if you feel that you can't, obviously seeking support to maximize that. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. So 50 % of the time, entire time the child is alive, you need to be in tune to them. So that's pretty good because they sleep a lot. Anisa Varasteh: Providing an environment for good quality sleep is part of it, yes. In tune means that, and this is also a big part of fulfilling Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Okay. And so what does in tune mean? Anisa Varasteh: intimate relationships as well, so I think it's very directly related to today's topic. Intune means identifying what the other person needs and responding appropriately. So that doesn't mean that you are taking responsibility for their needs or how they're feeling, but you are in the moment present with them. For example, how that can look like an intimacy is that listening to the other person's verbal and nonverbal communication before touch. This is being attuned with the person rather than just going for it, touching them or whatever type of touch it is, even holding hands. This is attunement. And in children means paying attention to the child's, especially nonverbal cues about what they need, which is it's very intuitive. Like when kids cry, we tend to them, we ask them what's wrong. If they are really little, can't communicate. We try to get to the best of our ability what's happening and respond. Kait Tregenza: It's fascinating because when you think about what a child needs, is it very different to what an adult needs? I mean, I don't need another person to respond to me 100 % of the time, but I think that if it goes far below 50%, you start to see a basic gap between, I'm here and I'm not being met. I mean, how much attunement Do adults need? Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. I think the concept is similar, so attunement in childhood and adulthood is the same, but the needs are very different. So as adults, obviously we have agency. I can go and grab myself a drink. I don't need my partner to do that for me. But in an emotional relationship, I need my partner to pay attention to my state, at least at a minimum, be curious about my internal state. rather than assuming, and this is something that I see very often in relationships that they go on this autopilot of, know what you want, I know how you want it, rather than being in the present moment and either asking verbally, but also more importantly, non-verbally what's happening for the person. And if it is just, you know, they need distance, they need stillness, or they need closeness, then responding to that accordingly. Kait Tregenza: It's really fascinating, isn't it? Because I think, you know, the title of your book is Raising Sexually Intelligent Kids. And the more that I do this work and the more that I unpack these aspects of my own life, the more that I realize there's no real difference between sexually intelligent and intelligent, you know, having a foundational life. And so for anyone who reads the title of your book, Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: raising sexually intelligent kids. I'm sure that there's an immediate plethora of ideas about what that actually means and what that book is all about. Do you want to give just some, not only a high level synopsis, but the real point of why you wrote this, the real lesson that you want people to take away from? Anisa Varasteh: Yes, and this is exactly what you said, that the skills that I'm teaching parents to teach their children, they are applicable to any area of life. And these are relational skills that I'm teaching, but also life skills, for example, critical thinking skills about the source of information that you access to learn about something. Now in the context of sexuality, very often people, especially young people, go to pornography because there is a lack of comprehensive education readily available. So it's for the young person to critically evaluate the source of information. And this is not just criticism of pornography, but generally media, any media that we consume, to understand what's this point, what is the intention of this. Is this entertainment? Is it education? Is it reliable? So for example, critical thinking is an aspect of sexual intelligence. Emotional intelligence is another person. So identifying how I'm feeling and regulate my own emotions while being in a relationship with another person. Another thing that I talk about is a boundary setting, for example, because that's also important when it comes to sex and intimacy. how to set boundaries. And most often we talk about boundaries as something negative. This is my boundary, don't come any closer to me. But the way that I see boundaries is that when you can identify your boundaries and communicate them clearly and stick within your boundaries, you can be generous within those boundaries. But if you keep pushing yourself outside of those boundaries, then you start to feel resentful. Kait Tregenza: to come here. Thank Anisa Varasteh: So these are some examples of the types of things that I support parents to teach their children. And also the reality is that our knowledge, the content of sex education is constantly updating our understanding of human sexualities evolving all the time. So what you teach your child right now may not be very up to date in 20 years when they want to use that piece of information. So it's teaching them how to source information. ⁓ ethically and well. Kait Tregenza: And so in raising sexually intelligent kids and the investigation that you went into that, how much have you learned about what kids teach sexually intelligent adults? How transferable is this skill? Like how much do the adults then start to learn about sexual intelligence from their children? Anisa Varasteh: Yes, that can definitely happen. ⁓ I think when you want to teach something to another person, obviously you need to learn about that yourself first. I think in that initial phase of learning about each of these skills, you will learn new things about sexual intelligence, how to show up in a relationship. But also, as I said, when you are having an interaction with your child about body autonomy or consent through play, through conversations, you can learn and practice these skills. So in a way, yes, you are learning more about sexual intelligence through those micro interactions. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: The reason I ask is because I think I have done more learning about body autonomy, about boundaries, about what I want and also about pleasure and joy and play from my child than I could have ever gotten from an adult interaction of learning. And what I mean by that is I haven't been a person who has had good Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Kait Tregenza: boundaries, good limits and good understanding of where I am and where I have been the most excellent good girl in my life for so many years. And it took me having a child to question why on earth I would put anybody else's needs exterior to me and my child. mean, obviously I put the needs of my child first. That's I'm talking exterior to us first. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Kait Tregenza: And that deep questioning where you can't find an answer to that question sends you on such a quest for, where does this come from? Where does this programming come from? And when you were talking about boundaries, had just because only because it was recent, it came to my mind that I wouldn't call myself a strict parent, but I called myself a very boundary parent. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. you Kait Tregenza: we have boundaries and within that, there's huge generosity for play and for whatever it is we wanna do. And there's a lot of flexibility and there's not like strict little rules that need to be followed, but within the guardrails of what we're doing, those guardrails never come down. And for a long time, I really like struggled with that because I'm not a boundary person. And a meditation that I was in, Anisa Varasteh: Mm. Kait Tregenza: right around the time that I was giving birth was to help me understand that if I was to give birth or if I was to gestate a child without the walls of a womb, what would happen to that child? How could that child ever gestate, ever grow, ever be nourished and loved correctly? And I really brought that concept. For me, walls and boundaries felt so hard. Whereas the walls of a womb felt like really soft and really loving. And I read this study done once. I can't remember the author at the moment, but it was the understanding that they could do some EKGs or some kind of... ⁓ some kind of heartbeat monitoring test that when a baby touched the walls of the womb, there was a sense of comfort that they received because they knew, ⁓ that's my mother or that's the boundary or that's the, and I really was like, how do I reprogram my body to feeling the safety around these boundaries? And just recently I had the opportunity to witness my three-year-old talking to another child. about not rules, but what we're allowed to do. And the way that she explained it was so loving. Like she was like, this part is dangerous and we're not even going to worry about going there, but in here, we're allowed to do whatever we want. And I was like, how do I learn that in my life? How do I learn that in every aspect of my life? Like don't go there. It's dangerous, but while we're here, do whatever you want. This is the fun place. And I loved how you framed that around the takeaways for the parents in your book. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, and I love your analogy, the walls of the womb. I think there's that sense of containment that can feel safe. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. And I think that if you don't, if you know strictness as separate to boundaries, then you know a set of rules that you need to memorize that don't have meaning to you. And I think that at least the way that I was trying to set it up for my own knowledge was like, how does this have meaning? How do I maintain this? Even when you know, someone's really like, Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: can I please have this or this or this or this? And it's like, it's really easy because it reminds me that when you touch my boundaries, you will feel my love. Yeah. And so I think that brings us into a nice segue around what you term erotic agency. So it's there's agency in life and then you've got erotic agency. So I think what we're just talking about there is just a general sense of agency, but how do you bring that into erotic agency? What does that, what does that mean for you? Anisa Varasteh: Erotic agency is like any, it's like agency in another aspect of life, but specifically if I want to define it, is our capacity to feel and to identify and to choose our own desire based on self-trust rather than from a place of fear or pressure or reactivity. Kait Tregenza: obligation. Yeah. ⁓ Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, so that basically is my definition of erotic agency. It's not about being more sexual or being more adventurous or more confident on the outside. It's about this sense of internal integrity in relation to eroticism and sexuality. So it could be in real life, it could look like sensing a contraction before you say yes. something, intimate act for example, or to a relationship, to a connection, to an offer of connection for example. Or it may be realizing halfway through an interaction that something no longer feels right and being able to having the capacity to name that for yourself, that change, that shift without collapsing into blame or self-blame. So these are some Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Anisa Varasteh: manifestations of erotic ⁓ agency in life. And if I wanted to give examples of how it sounds like in the heads, so the thought patterns that go with it, could be, for example, I'm choosing to stay in this connection because it feels nourishing, because it feels fulfilling, not because I'm afraid of loss or I'm afraid to leave the situation. or I trust the know that I feel in my body. That's an important one. Or another one is that I can stay curious about this relational pattern that's happening in this relationship without judging myself or again collapsing into self-blame. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. the way that you talked about. these tools and techniques or these ⁓ ways to approach when you're talking about the parenting and now here again about erotic agency. There's a central theme here which is slow it down. in a world that has no value for slowness. that must be the most difficult first step for most of your clients, for all of us, right? So do you have any skills that you personally have developed around how to slow in the moment? Like do have tips or techniques or is it a learned experience? Is it just living in that erotic agency for long enough that you don't get pulled out of it? Or how do you slow down enough to actually execute on your erotic agency? Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Yeah, I love that question. One thing I want to clarify is that slowing down doesn't necessarily mean, you know, being less productive, because I think that's, that's something that comes to mind for most people. Yes, I've got a lot to do or I become lazy if I slow down. Yeah, this is about micro moments of pausing before a decision. Kait Tregenza: That's the spirit, right? All the best things to do! Anisa Varasteh: This is about micro moments of being intentional about engaging, for example, with social media or moving to the next task. You don't have to have to slow down. For example, my speech is generally slower compared to some other people. You don't have to be like me. You can be yourself. You can be full of life and lots of energy and talk very fast. So you don't need to be a different person. But this means pausing. even for a moment and doing things intentionally rather than reactively. So knowing what I'm doing right now it makes sense to me and I'm choosing to do this rather than just because I've been told or just because everyone's doing it or just because well I don't know why I'm doing it. Kait Tregenza: really easy to say, take a pause right before you react. Right. And I think it's, it's just partly it's maturing partly it's ⁓ for me, it's been nervous system work that I'm not in that constant, ⁓ animated, activated over, overridden state, you know, ⁓ I did have to go to the extreme though. I will say that I did have to go and say, I'm going to sit. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: silently and in stillness for as long as it takes until I feel that calibration within me. And that was a decision to give up a lot of things in order to do that. And that's not easy when you have the external world to deal with. And I appreciate that not everybody can do that. That's why I'm always like, how do you actually soften your nerves? How do you... Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Yeah. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: like come out of fight or flight or fawn or free the whatever you're in and go to your nine to five or run your business or take care of your kids. Like I haven't found the answer to that without just like stepping back from everything and letting what doesn't have value for me still like fall away and for all the obligations that we think are so big to actually let go. Because you know, I've, I've had so many conversations over my life with people who want to be living a pleasurable, enjoyable, stress-free, calm, peaceful life. But then you see all of their micro decisions adding up to the very opposite. And I think part of it is like, you don't see that. Part of it is you don't get out of your nervous system reaction. So you're constantly in this reaction mode. And then you have this conversation with someone, you react to that and you react to this and you react to kids. And then Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kait Tregenza: You turn around and you're like, okay, I'm supposed to want this erotically, sexually fun life and I'm living in this overdrive. So I feel like part of the way to get erotic agency or even just eroticism in your life is you've got to come out of that survival state. But how can you do that without letting it all fall? Maybe you can't, I don't know. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Yeah. Now you can certainly can and that's a very good question. And I'm glad that you're bringing it back to practical ways of doing things. We're not just talking conceptually, but what can people actually do? And you're very right that this relates to nervous system regulation. And when we are in a state of hyper arousal, which is that constant ⁓ tension that we feel heightened ⁓ state of just being, but as well as the sensations in the body, like heart palpitation or being sweaty or there's this feeling of if I don't do enough, something bad will happen. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: the wrong kind of a rattle. Anisa Varasteh: Practically what you can do is to use ways to involve the body to ground it. Now this means, I'll give you some examples, for example wrapping yourself with a shawl or a blanket, that sense of containment that we talked about before, the body needs on a somatic level to feel safe, to feel wrapped, to feel contained. Kait Tregenza: Yeah. Anisa Varasteh: So you can use something like that on a daily basis, maybe at night, weighted blankets, great if you have them. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: It's another thing I learned from being a mother is like, what's the instant calming that happens from a child is wrapping them and then doing that for myself. was like, ⁓ my God. I don't think your body knows the difference between being held in a hug and being held in this. So that's a great, such easy tip. Everybody has something that they can wrap themselves in. I love that. Okay, next. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. ⁓ Other things that you can do is, for example, just like you said, the body can't tell the difference. So even give you giving yourself a hug for if it feels right, you know, because it doesn't feel right for some people, but it feels right. You can give yourself a hug. That's another way or just put applying pressure. Another very good one, which is very simple, but a very effective is placing one hand on the chest and one on the belly and feeling the weight of your hands on the body. and taking comfortable breaths. don't need to take deep breaths, just comfortable. And I think that sense of the weight, that containment again is regulating for the nervous system. ⁓ Taking cold showers or warm baths, either just experiment and see. But what I want to suggest is that pay attention to your body and the body is usually a very good guide to tell you what you need in the moment. So right now, now that you're listening, just bring your attention to your body and ask your body what is it that it needs. Does it need movement? Do you need to stretch your back or your shoulders? Is it thirsty? Do you need to move a little bit and make yourself comfortable? Because we tend not to do these things because we override the messages that the body sends with the messages that the brain sends, cognitive things. So that first step towards nervous system regulation starts with the body. Pay attention to your body. Kait Tregenza: For me, this is bringing us into a really beautiful segue with something I really wanted to talk to you about, which is around that concept of self abandonment. In my experience, and I think most people's experience, they can see and feel someone who is abandoning themselves. But I think the difficulty that other people have in helping that person is this misunderstanding that she might not even be choosing it. she might put it this way. I don't think anyone wakes up in the morning and goes, today's the day I'm going to self abandon because I'm not worth it. And I'm, I'm this and that. And these are, these are things that happen, whether they're from our childhood implantations or imprinting or the environment or the nervous system or the attachment or whatever it may be. wherever you feel a sense of deep unsafety that you can't, I guess, solve that yourself and need some external force in order to solve or save that situation. And so you will put yourself, I guess, to the side for that external thing to keep that external thing, where it's a husband or a parents happiness or whether it's a job or a boss or whatever. How does that relate to your work in sexuality and erotic agency? Because, I mean, we all know about self abandonment. We know that from a psychological perspective, but how does that relate to eroticism, to sexuality, to sensuality, to living a pleasure based life? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Sorry Kate, I lost you there for a moment. You're back now. Okay. Yeah, so I didn't hear the question. I then you froze but yeah, you're back. Kait Tregenza: okay. Did you hear the question? Okay. Anisa Varasteh: Self abandonment in my opinion is not weakness, it's not a failure, just like you described. It has a function and it did serve a function at some point in that person's life. It's even, I would ⁓ even call it an intelligence that once kept someone safe because it has a function. Most people Kait Tregenza: Okay. Anisa Varasteh: especially girls who self-abandon, they don't learn to override themselves because they're weak, because they're passive. They learn it because very early on, just like you said, discovered that wanting could cost them something, something vital like love, approval, safety or belonging. And because in our childhood, our survival resources are dependent on our parents, on our caregivers, on our community, then it has a real cost if we, you know, for that person in that conditions, they didn't self-abandon. And so that these childhood conditionings that train self-abandonment are often subtle, they're not big gestures of sit down and you need to self-abandon. There are things that children learn very early on, like love being more available when they are agreeable, when they are easy, when they are low maintenance, for example, or love being withdrawn when they want something, ⁓ or being approved of when they are being good, which often means being accommodating, being self-sacrificing, or being emotionally contained. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: There's like. Anisa Varasteh: And so I think over time then the mind and also the nervous system learns this very simple message, this very simple equation that mind needs, threat and connection. And so you can see how that can show up in intimacy because then this person has learned that wanting and desiring equates threat and risk to connection. Then they won't name what they want. They are afraid to do that. So there is definitely a strong manifestation of self-abandonment and intimacy. Even when the partner is a safe person or that relationship is a loving relationship, but because these are very deeply rooted patterns and cognitive patterns that have formed, then they are hard to shift just because we know cognitively that our partner is safe. Kait Tregenza: As you were talking, I was also thinking about the larger environment that most women who are currently between the ages of 25 and 50 were subjected to this very strong messaging around, I'm an independent woman. I don't need no man, you know? So not only have your childhood told you that your needs create threat, but your society is telling you, Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: You can't be strong. You can't be capable. You can't be successful if you have needs. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Kait Tregenza: So you're kind of getting it from every level. ⁓ and then if you layer in culture and religion and everything, political belief systems on top of that, you know, depending on where and what culture you grew up in, what religion you grew up in, you know, your role as a girl in a household, in a society, in a larger family unit, in a workplace, it becomes. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Okay. Kait Tregenza: reinforced in almost every interaction you have that your needs should be non-existent, right? Anisa Varasteh: Absolutely and I'm glad that you brought it up because that is another thing that I see in my clients. Now we're talking about women right now but this is something that I see in men as well in a different context and that is when someone is successful professionally for example or these messages around being self-sufficient or being strong. and they have this very human need and desire to, for example, surrender to an experience. Then they find it really hard to reconcile the desire to lead and desire to surrender, the desire to be strong and the desire to be tender. As a part of the work that I do is how to hold these paradoxes internally and reconcile them without this constant tension. because it's not about morally whether this is right or this is right, it's about how you can hold both of them at the same time. Kait Tregenza: Yeah, I remember first hearing about this concept when I was traveling in Asia and working through my understanding of these ancient and more Eastern traditions where the paradox and the yin yang or the polarity was not only celebrated, it was venerated, it was understood, and there was a journey on that. And I think in this more Western context, where it's like you can only be one thing and you have this far more, ⁓ a greater emphasis on identity and who you are as a singular. ⁓ aspect of the multi-dimensionality of you. Like I'm so many different things, but when you ask somebody, who are you or what do you do? Well, first of all, in Western culture, you don't ask someone who are you. You ask them what do you do? And that means I need a singular answer from you. And I think what you're talking about here is this very internal ⁓ conflict that outside Anisa Varasteh: Two, Kait Tregenza: of a culture that can hold multiple identities and hold multiple answers to the same question and hold complexity and ambiguity without an immediate need for an answer. You are forced to take all that you are and give a singular response. And you're allowed to feel bad about it. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: but you're not allowed to feel all that you feel in your identity. And I think that's so fascinating. You're allowed to feel anxiety. You're allowed to feel depression. We have medication for that. In fact, that's great that you feel that So you work with more Western based cultural people. What is the way that you come to an ambiguous, unanswerable, larger, multifaceted identity when it comes to holding these paradoxes? Because the paradox that you've just spoken about is not just one in ourselves. We are full of paradoxes. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm Kait Tregenza: And part of being sexually erotic and having this agency is being able to be all that you are without the shame, right? Anisa Varasteh: Yes, yeah, yeah. It is a big question and this is a part of my work that I truly love and I really appreciate doing this deeper level work with people. ⁓ Because yes, it does require a level of capacity to hold paradox and Kait Tregenza: Good question. Sorry. Anisa Varasteh: to be able to sit with the discomfort of figuring it out. It's not clear yet, but it will come to you and we will figure it out at some point. But you need to make enough space internally within you to meet all aspects of who you are as a human being. Because like you said, this is not just about, we are multifaceted. We have different parts, different aspects. Kait Tregenza: Okay. Anisa Varasteh: And they show up in different contexts, different relational dynamics as well. So it's about curiosity about who I am in what context or in this relationship or in this period of my life. And can I meet myself first and foremost with curiosity and with compassion? And I think one of the things that is probably the most rewarding for myself and also for clients is that We get curious about this desire that you have for power or for surrender or for whatever it is. What is it directing you towards? Not what your fantasy or your turn on is on a surface level, but what is this desire directing you towards? And that is really beautiful, meaningful work that we do and people find fulfillment in those answers. Kait Tregenza: Hmm. If you don't know how to identify a desire, right? Then you don't even know what you want your life to add up to. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Kait Tregenza: What's in the way of us finding our desires then in your clinical experience? Anisa Varasteh: I think one of the biggest barriers is living up here in the head all the time. So trying to rationalize and conceptualize and analyze desire or life in general. And what I encourage people to do is to also use the body as a compass. Not just acting on impulse, whatever the body wants, but using the sensations of the body. as source of important source of information as data. So I would say that one of the biggest barriers is not knowing how to use this beautiful old compass that we have ⁓ to your your benefits and just trying to engage with the world with relationships purely on a cognitive level. So it's integrating cognition with somatic intelligence and wisdom of the body. I don't know whether that answered your question. Kait Tregenza: think it does. I think it does. think, you know. the way in which, particularly in this age of AI, I have never felt more passionate about the advocacy of using your body and seeing it as biotechnology. If you don't wanna just say like wisdom, it's like there is a biotechnology system that gives you all of the answers about where you're supposed to go. Anisa Varasteh: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Kait Tregenza: And for me, it's not even a but it's like, that is because, you know, that's the innate thing, but that's why the training to override that. And that's why the cultural and social pressures override your body have been so intense. Because if you followed the wisdom of your body, you would never, never be disempowered to other people's forces. You would be so powerful. would. You would know exactly what your body wants. You would know exactly where your life is taking you. You would know when to say no to that person, when to say yes to this person, where to go. And I think that's the ultimate goal, right? For all of your clients that are coming to see you, for most people that would be, you know, living this life. And so like, let's shift the conversation there into this power, the power of intimacy and intimate connection to your body. Where does someone even start on that? If, you know, if they've come from a place of trauma or even just numbness or even just life on this planet when they're not when they're not trained in any of this intelligence where do we start? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. A place to start again, if you want to bring back to the body is obviously we can do that work. think the biggest... If you want the biggest bang for your bucks would be self-trust. Which I think again you can use the body to develop self-trust. Especially if this has been a challenge for you to trust your gut, trust your intuition. and not in a woo way, but really again using the sensations of the body as additional source of information plus context, plus values, plus cognition to make good decisions. So this means that it starts with self-awareness. How am I feeling in my body? So ⁓ if you want to make a decision, now we're talking about intimacy and relationships, whatever it is, you know, reaching out, placing a hand on my partner's lap or could be anything really. When I imagine doing this thing, how does it make my body feel? Do I feel a sense of expansion in the chest? Do I feel my spine lengthens? Does my breath deepen? Or the opposite, do I feel that my spine collapses or I feel tension in the chest or in the stomach? Kait Tregenza: Hmm. Anisa Varasteh: The first step is just by noticing this data that you're receiving. And there's a whole lot of evidence-based theory behind this. If you're interested, you can read about sensory motor psychotherapy or somatic psychology. So this is not just, you know, what we're talking about. There's actual evidence-based theory behind this. And then see whether... you can respond to the needs of a body on a regular basis. When you're thirsty, go for a drink of water. Because this, this reveals this relationship that we have with ourselves, that self-trust, that my needs matter as much as other people's needs. And this is something that I see consistently in my work, that people prioritize other people's needs and they don't know how to navigate the complexity of my needs as well as other people's needs. What do do then? So small moments of reconnecting with the body and with the self to create that trust, internal sense of trust. so beyond the body, if for example shame is one of the biggest barriers to intimacy and eroticism and sensuality for people. is meeting that shame with compassion. Because shame like self abandonment has a function or it did have a function at some point in life. It's a how I define shame and how I view it is that it has a survival function. It's a survival emotion. Like I said before, our resources for survival when we are children are dependent on our community and our caregivers. So if anything threatens the risk of losing those resources if there is a conflict between my values and my community values or my parents values, then shame is activated to stop us from making decisions that would threaten those resources for survival. So it's a very strong feeling. So the shame in itself is not a problem. The problem is that when the context changes, we are adults now, our resources are no longer dependent on other people. and yet those patterns are still there sometimes. So this means that people may feel shame about touching their own body because at some point that was a risk. Yeah, that was not okay. So they were punished for it, for example. So meeting that feeling of shame with compassion and the analogy that I usually use is that imagine there is a scared child driving a car. Kait Tregenza: Right. was not allowed. Right. Anisa Varasteh: and you're in the car with that child. what you want to do is not to punish the child or just throw it out the window. What you want to do is to let the child know that now there is an adult self and you want to swap seats. It can still be in the car, it can sit beside you, but you as the adult self have the control of that car. And sometimes that shift in the relationship that we have with Shane, that is a big... moment for change, for people to relate to their own sense of sexuality and eroticism. Kait Tregenza: I love that. And so do you take clients through a style of meditation or visualization to literally swap seats with their child and their adult? I mean, is that enough? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, it's not, well, maybe for some people it's just that awareness and as I said that relationship that we have with shame because most often people either think that it's a bad feeling and they should just suppress it and get rid of it or that they have fused this with their identity that I'm a shameful person. So this can help defuse that and can Kait Tregenza: Mmm. Anisa Varasteh: shift the relationship that people have with that emotion, which is a survival emotion, just seeing it for what it is, that is trying to protect you from something, perceived threat. And that in itself sometimes is enough for some people, but if there's been deeper wounds there or stronger form, cognitive patterns form for them, then obviously there's more work that needs to be done. But there's sometimes a simple visualization and this information sharing with clients can be very helpful. But then I have other tools that I support clients through this. Kait Tregenza: Can you have a huge sense of shame around even sexuality or even your own pleasure as well as huge erotic agency where you go out and you deeply fulfill your sexual needs? Like, can both of those things be true in someone or in many people? Anisa Varasteh: That's a very good question and I'd like to pause there just to make sure that I'm giving you. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: Maybe I give a little bit extra context because maybe it's a bit too abstract. ⁓ I'm just thinking of almost everyone I know. And I'm like, I can see their shame coming out in various ways. And sometimes it's not directly applicable to the most obvious things. And if the source of shame is X, their shame might come out in Y. But at the same time, I see them as ⁓ sensual, sexual, creative beings that can stand in their own power, that have their own lives, businesses, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm just like, it's so fascinating to me. And I even think of my own self. There are some things that, you know, I'm doing something and all of a sudden, you know, I have this shame-based reaction. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Kait Tregenza: in a different context doing that same thing, I would be fully empowered. ⁓ And so just listening to you talk and the way that you're talking about the child in the car, I'd never heard that before and I love that analogy. And it's just like, all of a sudden my body's like this and this and this and this. And I'm like, ⁓ slow down. only have, know, I can't process so much information at once. But I love that concept. This is why I'm so passionate about the body telling you the information you need to know. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: And there's, it's almost like there's these actually two cars going both at the same time. And it's like, which car is me and are they both me? And are they, is it one car and two steering wheels or whatever? And so I just thought, how do I ask this question as it's forming before my eyes around how shame and power actually work together? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Yeah, thank you for clarifying that. So in response to your question, yes, they can coexist. so the thing is that shame can be activated like any other type of emotion, especially survival emotions can be activated. in different contexts. So I may feel safe in myself and in my erotic agency with one partner, but in a different dynamic for various reasons, this shame might be activated. So if, you know, if from the outside you can't really tell if someone is in their full power, whether it's What I want to say is that you can't really judge someone from the outside. It's an internal sense and experience that matters but also that these survival emotions especially are activated when we are under stress. When there is a perceived threat which high level of stress even in the same relationship sometimes when I experience stress in other aspects of my life there's high level of cortisol that is produced in the body. And high level of cortisol, especially chronically, is interpreted by the brain as a threat in the environment. And so those survival mechanisms are activated. So yes, you can be in your full power and sometimes that can be activated. Kait Tregenza: So it's possible for a woman to come from a fully powerful state, meet the wrong person, get into that relationship and shift from being in her erotic power or agency into being a shame-based relationship? Or would that be rare? Anisa Varasteh: I don't I wouldn't say wrong person as in like you know that person is just wrong because you know if you if you have got the skills and the capacity generally in life to make good decisions that you you know you I think it's safe to assume that you would make the right decision for that point in time where you're at based on your needs at that time. ⁓ so, but yes, you can be activated in different dynamics, even with the same person. So maybe you made a decision based on the current needs that you have, and now those needs have been met in other ways, and this relationship is no longer serving you. And that can activate parts. But that, I don't think it's like a switch that can be turned on and off. Kait Tregenza: That's what I'm asking is the switch thing because it is like we need to learn how to turn the switch to erotic agency. So what would be the kinds of things that we would do if there were such a switch or if there were a movement towards living in our erotic agency? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Hmm. Erotic Agency, I think. means and this is just conceptual what I'm going to share with you right now but it's not abandoning yourself while remaining in a relationship so being with yourself and remaining in relationship with another human being and it starts I think the first step is that self-awareness and relational awareness I see relationship as a field almost like there is a field between two people, two humans even if it's a brief interaction. This relational field is shaped by our histories, by our nervous systems, by our cognitive patterns, our emotions and so when you have erotic agency you have awareness of what am I bringing into this dynamic, what is my nervous system doing right now and how are my actions and my nervous system affecting the other person. So awareness around this and this is where true power and true agency is. When you have awareness and then know some skills how to influence this relational field. Kait Tregenza: to your favor or just so that you don't abandon yourself. influence it to you, you, you want or to influence it so that you never leave your self. Anisa Varasteh: to your... Not to leave, not to abandon yourself. So this is not to manipulate the other person, but to influence it in a way that regular, I mean ideally in an ideal situation you want to regulate the other person, the other person's nervous system, so you have some tools to do that, but also stay grounded and connected to your own truth. Because sometimes the reality is that erotic agency or agency in general can look like I can say my truth and I can witness some someone being unhappy with this and I'm not responsible for their emotions. Erotic agency can look like you know I trust that this relationship this connection can hold truth without collapsing. Kait Tregenza: Right. Anisa Varasteh: This is an and if it can't then this is information. So what do I want to do with this connection then? Does that answer your question? Kait Tregenza: Hmm, totally. And I think that's, that's the main thing that comes from turning that shame into the power, right? Because shame is just information of like, there is a disparity between that which I've been taught, and that which I'm doing in this moment. And that and that distance between those two things, as it gets further away, the illusion is that the shame is Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Kait Tregenza: bigger or higher. Okay and so you have information that shame is I'm moving away from the conditioning that I received. But the conditioning that you received is not necessarily the powerful or healthy or truth based ⁓ place you want to be. It's just where you've started. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, this is not relevant anymore. This way of being, this way of relating, doesn't, it's not applicable or relevant in your context right now. Kait Tregenza: So you get this information that, and you can intellectually understand shame is just the disparity. Does the body understand that shame is the difference between where you were and where you're going? Anisa Varasteh: That's a very good question. Sometimes no, and sometimes that's why it's important to involve the body. That's why I use somatic psychology as a very powerful tool in my therapeutic toolbox to support people to regulate their body and the nervous system on a truly somatic level, like really self-touch or being wrapped with a weighted blanket. or other tools that we use to resource the body to give it the information that right now it's safe. Kait Tregenza: Mm. And so on the other side, okay, say your body can do that. And you're like, okay, my body knows that this is just, it's a movement point. I'm on a, I'm relocating from here to there. My mind knows that my body knows that. And now I'm at this new location where I'm aligned to the life that I want to live. I'm, I have agency. I can speak truth and not take responsibility for other people's reactions. I can. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: in living that way. How do you go from I can have hard conversations, I can be in uncomfortable situations into now I live with erotic agency? Because I feel like just because you you know you've gotten to this new location you know doesn't necessarily mean that you're living in embodied agent ⁓ agency. What's that next? What's that next step there? Anisa Varasteh: So your question is how does it look like that that next step beyond? Yeah. Kait Tregenza: How does it feel to look like that? Yeah. Anisa Varasteh: So I think what it could look like is... For example, learning to ask what am I actually longing for here in life or in this relationship? Is it connection? Is it freedom? Is it safety? Is it play? Is it rest? So showing curiosity about these deeper layers of desire that we may be feeling or longings that we have. And also what it can look like in relationships. is that people often find that their relationships change, not the structure of it, although sometimes that's true, but mostly they change in honesty. People find that there is more capacity in their relationships for truth, for holding the truth of someone. being able to communicate the truth without the fear of abandonment, without the fear of loss. And I think that's a very safe place. So people feel safe internally. They feel at home within themselves rather than having better sex. It's not about sex, although that can be definitely part of it, but it's about feeling safe at home. and living a life that feels aligned internally with integrity. Kait Tregenza: Because when you stop self abandoning, you stop caring that other people might abandon you because you've got you. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, yeah exactly, exactly. That's beautiful way to say it. Kait Tregenza: And I guess the idea that you have more truth in your other relationships is because you're having more truth with yourself. Well, it seems more linear how you're talking about it, but I am assuming that this is a very nonlinear pathway of ⁓ accepting life, right? Anisa Varasteh: Yeah. Yeah. And I think. Yes, absolutely. It is. But it's a very I feel very privileged to be in this space with people to hold that space for them to do this exploratory work and adventurous and very brave work. Kait Tregenza: Ha. Yeah, think I mean, I've gotten so much out of this conversation. just want to I think my final question to you would be. There's so many I have to choose. think this interaction between the self-abandonment and the shame and treating that as information and coming into power and the erotic agency, I suppose is another word of another way of classifying power, right? ⁓ For so many of us, even people who are so willing to go on a healing path. Anisa Varasteh: you Kait Tregenza: I think having self agency, erotic agency can feel so radical because there's something that's very interesting about self healing is that it's all about what's wrong with you. Yeah. And you can be on that. You can be on that loop for years. And I call it the new age spiritual cage is like healing, healing for the sake of healing, healing until you're, you know, until you're dead. where there has to be a point to healing and it has to be about radically claiming the life that you want to live, living in your agency. So I'm thinking about your clients. I'm thinking about all the women that I know. And there's this theme that keeps coming up with everything that you say, which is. doing it all myself seems easier, know, not having to, not having to ask anyone else for anything else. And so this whole self abandonment thing, it's not just that you don't speak up in meetings or that you don't just, you know, do this one of that other thing, but it's like that you'll take on everything that you need to do in your life by yourself because it's easier. That's another way of self abandoning, right? I'll just be more capable. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Hmm. Kait Tregenza: than anyone else around me. So I don't need anything from anyone that is the self abandonment can be so insidious and so deep and so like ever coming. it's like how does a capable woman, highly intelligent, so professional, like she's got all her finances worked out. She's got her family worked out. She's got all these things worked out, but she's still lost. She's still lost on the list. asking for help might feel like climbing Everest might be easier. I'm just wondering how a woman like that who's so capable, who's so intelligent, who's so, you know, accomplished comes to true erotic agency as her most empowered way of living. Anisa Varasteh: Hmm Hmm Kait Tregenza: in radical truth, in a coherence to herself with what is actually true for her. Anisa Varasteh: I think you touched on a few different things there that are really important. And one, I think is this illusion of a woman that I think a lot of us carry with us, that we want to be this woman who's got everything, who's got everything sorted and is also sensual and is also powerful. And it is an illusion. And I think the first step, is acknowledgement that we see things on social media, we judge people from the outside only based on a portion of their life and we compare that to our worst basically. And I also want to be vulnerable here and share that I myself find asking for help, not for help but even delegating things to other people is something that I'm continuing to continuously learning and practicing. I'm someone that I prefer to do things myself until I can't, then I ask for help. And I want to acknowledge myself. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: I'm just wondering if there's a 12 step program for that because I think there's going to be like millions of women signing up for that program. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, and my sister, I'm learning from my sister, she's the opposite and she's a great manager. She delegates until there is no one, then she does that herself. And I love that. And I've learned that from her and I'm practicing it. So she can be the leader. So I want to say, you we all struggle in different parts of life. And although it may seem like someone's got it all together, they... Kait Tregenza: Great. She can be the leader. She can teach us all. Anisa Varasteh: Most likely they don't. And I can tell you this because I've got the privilege of sitting in this space with people and I can see how they're suffering, even the ones that look like they've got it all together. And there is usually that intimacy part, that self-trust, that self-abandonment part is very present because they've learned to perform, to accomplish. ⁓ because maybe love was conditional to performance, maybe safety was conditional to performance. And for those people that they find asking for help is difficult, I want to say, don't necessarily, I don't believe that every single person needs therapy, this way of counselling or psychotherapy, but I think every person needs someone to hold space for them. This may be. your friend, this may be your partner, someone because there is something very healing that can happen in that human interaction. Someone meeting you with non-judgment, someone meeting you without wanting to fix you. Just meeting who you are with all of your complexities, with all the beautiful and the weird and the wonderful things that we all hold on the inside. So yes, if you don't want to go to a therapist, it's absolutely an option, but seek someone in your life to hold that space for you. Kait Tregenza: I've had such a great time in this conversation. think there was one really standout thing for me though, from a personal perspective, which was you can actually program self-trust into your body again. And I really liked that you used the example of starting with something super, super small and realizing you were right or realizing you could trust yourself. ⁓ and then you do another thing and you can realize you can trust yourself. And I think irrespective of the path that we've all individually led, having unbreakable self-trust is the superpower that changes our lives. the, I guess my only final question to, to that is. Sometimes self-trust is so fragile. So is this a daily practice that you would recommend even when we think we do trust ourselves? Because then something happens and we lose trust in ourselves. Is it a muscle or is it a stable structure? How do you see self-trust? Because you talked about it in such a unique way. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, I want to clarify that self-trust doesn't mean being right all the time. Yeah, self-trust... Kait Tregenza: Yes, I hope you catch yourself on that one. Thank you. Appreciate that. Anisa Varasteh: Yeah, and I think that that's something that is a trap that we can get into. And it's just that trusting that based on the information that I have right now from my environment, my context, my body and my, you know, my thoughts that I am making the best decision right now. And I can trust myself on that. It's like, you know, we may be wrong. We definitely will be wrong at some points in our life. Kait Tregenza: me at this time. Anisa Varasteh: but trusting that I made that decision to the best of my ability and with the best information that I had at the time. Yes, love that, Kait Tregenza: I love that. I just want to pause there on that point and just be like, self-trust isn't predicated on the outcome. It's predicated on, did the best that I knew in this moment for me with the information, the resources, the background, the intelligence, everything that I had at this time. That was the decision I made. And that was what I thought was best. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Yes, I agree. Yeah. Mm. Kait Tregenza: irrespective of what then happened, because I think that's the part that breaks people's self-trust, right? That's huge. think that for me is my takeaway into this, into building erotic agency and knowing that self-trust is the foundation of erotic agency, but that self-trust isn't predicated on whether or not the best possible ever outcome of my entire life happened or not. It's just that I did the best that I could then, full stop. Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Kait Tregenza: the end, stop this ethics. That's huge. That's really, really big. That seems like such a small thing to say, but I think that is life changing. Anisa Varasteh: I agree and I love how you summarized that, yes. Kait Tregenza: ⁓ my goodness. And he said, thank you so much. said to you, I could talk to you for three hours and I would have loved to. ⁓ We nearly have, but ⁓ this conversation is so important for so many women, because I know that you work with women who are high functioning. So you know the problems of a high functioning woman better than anyone else. And I think that Anisa Varasteh: Yes. Yes. Kait Tregenza: I think erotic agency is something that we might have to in a year's time, follow up with you and see how we're all going on that journey and see if we can get some clarifications and validations of the way that we've lived it. But I'm going to be taking a lot away from this conversation, really easy, applicable things that you can do every, every day. And just the way in which you've highlighted ways to change the way that we look at things and the way that we approach things and. It's been really wonderful. So thank you very much for your time. Anisa Varasteh: My pleasure. Thank you for having me. really enjoyed that conversation. Thank you, Kate. Kait Tregenza: Okay, tell everybody how can they find you, how can they connect you with you. Anisa Varasteh: My website is relatesexology.com and that's probably the best way and as well as on LinkedIn, Anisa Baraste. ⁓ Would you be able to leave the links in the show notes? Yep, Yes. ⁓ Kait Tregenza: and your ⁓ favorite place to be contacted is by your website. Okay, perfect. Thank you very, much. ⁓ and where's your clinic? Where's your studio? Anisa Varasteh: I am located in South Australia, on Melbourne Street, but I deliver telehealth consultation, so you can access my services from anywhere. Kait Tregenza: Amazing, amazing. Thank you so much for today. It's been truly enlightening. Thank you. Anisa Varasteh: My pleasure.