Latest / The Steep Stuff Podcast / #116 - Nicholas Turco

Transcript

#116 - Nicholas Turco · The Steep Stuff Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: What is up everybody?
• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, james Lariello.
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: I'm here to bring you guys back from the UTMB hangover with an episode with none other than Mr Nicholas Turco.
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: Nicholas is one of three United States men invited to the Golden Trail World Series Final in Italy.
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: It was super fun to catch up with Nicholas and learn more about his story.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: He's had some top finishes this year, both of the Broken Arrow Sky Race 23 K and at the tape hike trail um race that took place in Mexico, which was also a golden trail world series event.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: Um, you know, outside of running, nicholas is just a really interesting human, uh, doing amazing work for the United nations, amongst other things.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Um, guys, I think you're going to really enjoy this one.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: I've become just such a fan of Nicholas and, uh, I think you guys will be too.
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: So, without further ado, uh, give this one a listen, mr nicholas turco.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It's time.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, we are live.
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: Nicholas Tergo, welcome to the Steep Stuff Podcast.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: How are you doing?
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me on, james.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: I'm doing super well yeah.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Oh man, I'm so excited to have a conversation with you.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: I know we've been kind of planning this one on and off for a while, so I'm glad we finally took the time and put it together.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Thanks for reaching out to me and saying something, cause I I'm happy we were able to do this.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: No, I'm really happy to.
• 2:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, um, it's great to finally be on.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: I love listening to all the athletes that you've had on, many of whom are my really close friends, so I'm stoked.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: I know it's kind of funny man Like between, I feel like I'm starting to now get through literally every person that's ever run for Western Colorado University, um, and also I think I've like, like you said, I think I've had literally every one of your training partners on the podcast.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: So it's just, it kind of works perfectly and uh, gets things rolling.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: It's kind of funny man, I think we're the only two people that are not in Chamonix right now.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: Like it's kind of kind of hilarious, I know.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: Like uh, we're, we're just talking about this.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: I think, um, I have to admit I'm getting getting major FOMO.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: Um, I absolutely love Chamonix so much, but it's it's so exciting to see, um, just all all the amazing things going there, and I'm really excited for everyone.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: I know who's going to race there.
• 3:05
  Speaker 2: I'm cheering everybody on.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: So we're both going to have to be there next year.
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: I agree, I agree.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's just a big party with everyone in the sport, which is kind of neat.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: It's really cool too seeing all the new technology and stuff they're rolling out.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: It seems like Nike finally brought out ACG this this week and there's just like so much stuff that's kind of starting to roll out, roll out.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: It's kind of like the mecca now of, uh, our sport, which is kind of wild to think about.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: So cool.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: I mean I think, uh, it's been really exciting to watch the acg launch and I that adds like an extra level of excitement to this utmb for sure.
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: Um, and yeah, so many like I the chance.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: That was the first international trail race I ever did with Marathon de Mont Blanc and it's special.
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: You just can't stop staring at the sky.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Your neck is just craned the whole time up because those mountains are like nothing else in the world that I've ever seen.
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's just so vertical.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: I've actually personally I've been to Italy, I've never been on the French side or gone into the Chamonix Valley, but everyone has told me, yeah, like you're just kind of looking up the whole time and it's just such crazy vertical relief.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: I'm in Colorado Springs and like I sometimes look up, I don't know what, are we at 60?
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: So maybe it's like close to 8,000 feet seven.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: It's like seven or 8,000 feet seven.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: It's like seven or eight thousand feet.
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: Above me is pike's peak, right so you can see it.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: The relief is so high, but it's kind of back there a little bit, whereas, like I feel like in the chamonix yeah, that mountain's on top of you, right?
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: that's the thing about the alps that I can't describe until you see them like.
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: They just go straight up, like there's.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: There's no like medium, it's just flat, straight, vertical, like, and, and that makes them so spectacular for sure.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: So crazy.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So crazy.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: All right, man, let's talk about you a little bit.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Let's get into your background some biographical stuff, Maybe introduce yourself, talk a little bit about what it was like growing up in Durango and kind of bridge the gap to me to where you got to Western Colorado University.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, so Durango to Western Colorado that's that's the focus of this question.
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, uh, sure, um, well, so I was born, um, in Boulder, colorado, actually, and, um, my, um, I moved with my mom and my brother when I was like 12, uh, to Durango, colorado, and we, uh, well, I started running.
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: When I'm in Boulder with my, actually with my current, my professional coach now is actually my middle school coach, kathy Butler.
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: So she's a, she's a two time Olympian and she's now like I reached back to her to be my professional coach.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: So that's a cool like roundabout.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, I moved to Durango and I, I joined cross country and I, yeah, like I fell in love with that.
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: I moved to Durango and I, I joined cross country and I, yeah, like I fell in love with that.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: Absolutely Like Durango is talking about steep.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: There's like no such thing as a flat place to run in Durango.
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: Even the river path is like not flat, and so I think you just get really used to like thinking that it's just normal to run up like vertical trails on your easy days and that really shaped.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: I think that just shapes a lot of people growing up there Like there's so many incredible mountain bikers, road bikers like coming out of there, sepp Kuss and you know great Nordic skiers and the culture of Durango is just, it's just incredible.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: And we won like we won state won state cross country my senior year.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: So I just had such a special team and I fell in love with the sport so much running in high school there and then, yeah, I just wanted to run for the best.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: All I could think about when I was in high school was where I wanted to run.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: That's definitely evolved a lot in my life, but back then that's the only thing on my mind.
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: So the best school that I got to a spot to run for was Western and I went.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: It's so crazy, it's so cool man.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I love like just how many folks have come out of the Gunnison River Valley college at wise.
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: I mean between Cam Smith, brian Whitfield, so many men and women.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: It's just so crazy.
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: Were you in school with any of these people, like with Kieran or any of them?
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Like who did?
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: you what class of?
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: year were you.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: I, um, I was in school with many of them.
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was, I'm a year older than Kieran, uh, as a reference point to everybody who knows him and uh, I.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: So I stayed at western for three years.
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: I actually transferred for my last two years, um, but yeah, I, uh, I knew I was with brian and taylor and jeshwin and, um, you were with the whole crew.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Man, I was with the whole crew.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was um, I've had the whole team on at this point that I guess.
• 7:40
  Speaker 2: Uh, it kind of makes I think so honestly, the the sad point is that I never got to run with Cade on the team and he's such a great, great person.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm so happy I get to run with him now, but that's the only person I missed oh man, yeah, big big Cade Michael fan um same.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we were just talking about that guy.
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: Um, okay, so all right.
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: So you end up at Western.
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: Let me, I'm just trying to understand, like, okay, so obviously Western has a trail running team.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: You ran for their cross country and track, is that correct?
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: I did, I did.
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: I ran for the NCAA team and it was really special because I got that team experience of competing in a national cross country meet and my last year there we podiumed and we got third in the national D2 cross country meet and that was.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: That's just something that you never forget.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: It's a really special feeling to win with, like to have such a great day with your team and score for your team.
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: And it was maybe a lucky day for me because it was really hilly and really muddy in Pittsburgh.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: So I had a great like last cross country race in my career and that, yeah, that was cool.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: But then mountain running was definitely always what I loved more and what I was better at, for sure.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: Track was hard.
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: What was your experience like it was?
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: You know, I talked to a lot of people I mean really throughout the ranks like it seems like more D1 athletes hate it and it seems like as you go down D2, d3 people have better experiences with better coaching and things like that.
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: What was your experience like?
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: Was it overall positive?
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: I mean I that the ability to to like, like I said, like run on a team, I think that's an overall huge net positive.
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: Um, I think, like one of the things that just draws me to sport in general is that you create these lifelong friendships, um, and they, and they really like you forge these bonds with people that are so unique, like maybe you meet them, like like maybe you're both from the us or like like, but you meet them on the other side of the world, right, and you're like, oh my gosh, and you're just like you never forget that because you like met racing in switzerland, um, and I think that's like what that team cross-country feeling, it's like you just do all these things together and they just forge really cool bonds.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean Western is very competitive, so it was very intense at times, like D1, of course, like it was overwhelming.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Of course, like everyone has highs and lows of their college experience, but it is a net positive and I think, like it's cool to do it when you're young, cause you have your whole running career to do individually focused things, but that that team experience kind of stops after a certain age.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, interesting.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Interesting Now, obviously, and we'll talk about what you do for work um in a moment but one of the things I find interesting is that you also it seemed like you were just by getting to talk to you for a few minutes obviously very academically involved as well, it seems like, especially with what you do for work now.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: That's true.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a nerd.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a major nerd.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: How was it balancing academics with running full-time Dude?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know how people do it.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: It's got to be.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: It's a full-time job just doing one of those things.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: So how did you?
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: How easy was it for you?
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that that that's um something that I've actually like taken a really intentional approach on in my life.
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: Um, I think that there's no like one answer to anyone's career.
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: Like it's so amazing to just focus on one thing, and it's also so amazing to focus on more than one thing, and it's also so amazing to prioritize one and then the other non-athletic professional career with really huge impact in policy and law and human rights, and just like social impact, like solving complex problems in society.
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: That's like my passion on the other side of running, and so I've always really but I love running so much and I always wanted to pursue it to the height of my professional ability, and so I've always intentionally like focused on both and, honestly, sometimes it's been really hard because I've like felt like, oh, I need to make a choice, like I can't be the best if I continue to balance these things the way I have, but the more that I've continued to follow them, at the same time, I see them merging and really becoming like who I am, and I think that's just my message to anyone who's younger Like it's really important to follow, like to think about who you, what you want to be and like continue to do what you want to be, because if you continue to do it you will become it.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And like continue to do what you want to be, because if you continue to do it, you will become it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: And there are going to be times where you know like I have a great sports psychologist and he is like helping me understand that if you really intentionally look at the timeline, you can like prioritize one thing and then the other.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: But if you think about timeline, you might think like a year or six months or two years, but actually think of it like in context of your dreams.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: So like have like a 10 year dream timeline and then you can start to say like oh, like this year, you know, I want to get my master's degree, and then, like in 10 years, I want to be like for me personally, like I want to be a senior level diplomat for the US government, and so you can like start to realize that your dreams actually do fit together and you don't have to.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: And it's not like dropping one thing, it's just like the ebb and flow of like the timing.
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: So yeah and yes.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: So like I got my master's in international law in Geneva and then I interned at the UN and at both those things I was still competing in the, in the professional trail running circuit, and at Western.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: I actually decided to leave Western because the school wasn't meeting my academic goals, so I transferred to CU and that helped me reach my academic goals.
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: But it's also, I think, the key and I'm blabbing on about this, but the key really in my mind is that you can't like compare yourselves to the output that other people are putting in, because sometimes you need to actually do less than other people are so you're getting that right recovery and be very confident in that.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: So sometimes, like for the academic side for example, there's lots of people who they're trying to hold a 4.0 and they're like I'm going to pull out all nighter, right, that doesn't work.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: If you're a collegiate athlete, that doesn't work if you're a professional athlete, it doesn't even work for your high school athlete.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: So you need to be like how can I like maximize these two hours to get it done and then focus on my training and my sleep, and that honestly, like kind of is a game changer, because you realize that you actually can put in a lot less time and still get the same results.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: But I think it comes down to comparison, because it's so easy to be like oh well, this person's running a hundred miles a week, oh, this person's staying up all night on this project, and that's like the Achilles heel is once you start comparing.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It's interesting you say that there's a lot to unpack out of that, out of what you said.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: But one thing I will take away from it too, is that we live in a culture where, just like everything has got to be more and more and more right it's I have to run 120 miles a week because this person's running 120 miles a week.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: Or, like you said, this person staying up all night studying or cramming Listen, man, I have my MBA.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I went through the graduate school circuit Not fun I and I never got like I and especially like I just never got much out of this whole staying up all night thing and studying Like I.
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: It's, and it's the same thing with running for me too, Like if I cram for the tests, not usually going to do as well, as if I just prepared and did a lot of small things over a long period of time, as opposed to a lot of big things over a short period of time.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: So it's really interesting.
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: I like that perspective.
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: But let's kind of bridge the gap.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: Then I really do want to get into this, because you have such a cool job and kind of how you do that with trail running, maybe talk about what you do professionally.
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: I know you kind of glossed over, so let's get into that, the nitty gritty of it, sure, and then we'll go from there into that, the nitty gritty of it, and then we'll go from there.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: Absolutely so professionally, I'm a consultant for the human rights offices of the United Nations.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I was an intern for the Human Rights Council, which is an intergovernmental body of 46 countries that rotates.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: That mandate is create, drafting resolutions for international human rights protection and furthering, and so I finished that last year and now this year I moved into my role as a consultant and it's actually kind of an intermediary role for me because we're launching a project this year and so like the official consultancy starts in 2026 for me, but there's a lot of like behind the scenes work this year of the project we're launching.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: So I'm working with the human rights offices are my main contacts, but what we're doing is we're launching a project with the peace building offices, the humanitarian affairs offices and the human rights offices to partner with the Olympics and the International Olympic Committee to create athlete ambassadors for the United Nations and then those athlete ambassadors the program that we're creating is essentially like an activation social impact partnership with the Olympics, where the sponsors of the Olympics can start to, through their activation launches of athletes, donate to social impact of those three offices and to the work of human rights, humanitarian affairs and peace building, because what we're looking at right now in the multilateral space is there's a lot of defunding and decommitment to these critical like humanitarian sectors, um, because of huge geopolitical reasons that we won't go into on this podcast, but um, but um, essentially, like, what we're looking at here is how to um, how can we partner with, like sport for a long time has been a driver of sustainable development and a driver of peace and hope, and you know human inspiration, and so that's the but we're looking at how can you like bring that up the next level into creating really meaningful social impact partnerships with top brands and top athletes, essentially, and so that's my, yeah, that's my role at the UN, I'm also on the side of paralegal.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: Like I said this year, this is a launching phase, so, on the side, I'm also a paralegal in Denver as well.
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Wow, that is such Dude.
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: How did you All right?
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: So, first off, the role itself seems like it fits so well for you, especially as an athlete.
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: How did you kind of land into that spot, Like, how were you?
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: I pitched it actually Really, it was my idea, okay.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Well, I had the opportunity to pitch it to leadership at the Human Rights Office through my internship and it got traction from there.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: And we're working in partnership with the research universities Duke and Brown because, in alignment with that athlete ambassador social impact project, we're also launching a neuroscience study to try to understand, like the mechanisms in the human brain that lead toward effective peace building and effective respect for human rights.
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Like what are those mechanisms that make people actually, like, go toward positive shifts?
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: And a lot of the evidence shows that it's like about engaged change.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: So If, like, there's a conflict, like counter messaging to the drivers of the conflict usually doesn't work and needs to be like engaged change, that will rewire the root causes of the conflict from a brain perspective, which, of course, you could kind of figure that out without brain science.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: But understanding, like the neural connections to why is really important.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: And so I pitched this project in also to working with the.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: There's a professor, dr Tara White, at Brown who, like pioneered this field of human rights and neuroscience.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: So I'm working with her to launch a new study and we're currently fundraising for that full study that will take like four years to complete, so I got into that role through pitching it.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: By luck.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: It's the honest answer.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: That is so cool.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: Now you kind of briefly touched on as well like your goal.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Did you say it was the State Department you wanted to work for?
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Well, my dream since we're talking big things my dream is to be the US Ambassador to the United Nations one day.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, so, yeah, that would be.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: That would be a high up in the state for it.
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: Maybe, like, like I was saying, that's a 2010, 20, 20 year goal, maybe more like 20.
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: I like goals man.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: I like hearing athletes and just folks in general and talking about goals I feel like, and especially folks that are not afraid to like state them.
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: Usually people you meet a lot of folks that are like afraid to put them out into the world or out into the universe and speak them into existence.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: But I always really appreciate folks that are like know what they want.
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: You know, I don't know what it is.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: People don't want to put that out there anymore.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a really good point.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that goals are hard because you know, we were talking about my training partners.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, so, like one of my very best friends is Lauren Gregory and we were just talking about this how like it's hard to put out like a huge dream and goal that like, might you can do everything right and it might not come true Right, and that's like the space that we're working in a lot as athletes, that you, you do everything and you still don't have control over it.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: You never do.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And that's like this space I think of goals.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Why it's hard to put them out there?
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: Because you're being extremely vulnerable and you have a big dream Because, yeah, you can check all the boxes and there's no guarantee you're going to win gold or make the team or become an ambassador or all these things that are really in.
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's a hard space, but I agree with you that stating them is important because it tells other people, they gives other people the permission they can do the same, so true, that's so true.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: All right, let's pivot a little bit to running.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: You've been on the golden trail world series circuit this year.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: You raced at tape pack.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: You raced a broken arrow.
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: You were just over I almost said overseas.
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: You were just in europe.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Uh, racing, that was the alpine, is it the splits?
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Alpine?
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: Glacier trail is how you pronounce it.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Okay, I think I um, yeah, it's in pit, stall the pits.
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know how to pronounce it correctly, but I think like pit stall austria, yeah yeah, anyway, you've had some great finishes this year.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: You were just invited to uh, you broke the news to me you're invited to go race at the final for the Golden Trail Series final, which kind of continued to spur this conversation.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Let's get into your season and talk about it, man.
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: I mean, as far as I'm concerned, that's a very successful season.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: What was your favorite race?
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: What was some of the highest highs and what were some of the lowest lows?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean, I've I've had a.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed this season.
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: Um, I've had some good, some good breakthroughs.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm really proud that I'm one of three American men to be invited to the world final for golden trail series.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Um, that's a, that's a big deal for me and it's definitely been a big goal.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: Um, so I'm really happy to make that.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: Um, I'm 30th currently, so I just barely made it, but I'm stoked.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean I had probably my best performances this year were at Broken Arrow and the Mexico Golden Trail Race and I got my first top 10 finish so far in the Golden Trail World Series in Mexico.
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: And I mean, granted, it was less competitive than the other ones, but I'm still very proud of it because there's still always an amazing field in any Golden Trail stage and that was a big breakthrough for me.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: And then also, I loved Broken Arrow too, because that field of American athletes is just becoming so elite and so deep and to be 12th in my country in the marathon is something I'm very proud of and really like that's like it makes me know that I can really shoot for that world's team in 2027.
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: So it's like a really good indicator and then focus.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I mean this year like high, highs, those two races.
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: I love racing in Europe so much.
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: The two races I did in Europe so far.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: They are a little short for me so I feel like my results were a little lower than I wanted, but I really feel like I shine more at that Marathon du Mont Blanc, occ, kind of like long, huge climbs which, yeah, both of the races I did better this year were a little longer.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Those are the highlights.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go ahead.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's get into it.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: So, dude, broken Arrow 12th place, that was a stacked field man.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: You can't say that wasn't competitive.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: That was probably outside of the 46K.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: That was the second most competitive race probably ever assembled on American soil, besides the 2023 Pikes Peak.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Ascent Bananas competitive.
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: What did that ever assembled on american soil besides like the 2023 pikes?
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Because that like bananas competitive.
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: Um, yeah, what did that?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: I mean you said that meant a lot to you, obviously, but that was kind of the first.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Was it the first one of the year you did for?
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: second one.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that was okay, because there was another one in italy in may.
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: My apologies, yeah um, but, dude, like what did maybe talk a little bit about the race, mixing it up?
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: Were you sitting further back and then kind of came up in the race and that's how you got the finish?
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: Were you always in position, like, maybe talk a little bit about that one and then we'll go to tape back?
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, I really think that like being vulnerable about like how, actually how that race went.
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: Well for me is that I'd been like like for actually probably since like high school, always I'd been struggling with this like race panic attack thing where I'd get like these like freeze panic attacks before races and I'd always kind of like get over it and then compete and sometimes it would go really well and sometimes it would be very hard, but there would always be this like kind of of like crazy feeling in the beginning where I just felt super frozen in races and it would really impact it and I used to think it was just like a mental block.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: But I did a lot of like tests and work with a really good sports psychologist from the US Olympic Committee and we found that, like working with doctors too, that I had like cortisol problems, so like my cortisol had been like depleted.
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Actually going back to like talking about balancing running and high performance and other spheres, it had been like depleted and so it wasn't like basically raising to the level to handle stress that I needed.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: So I like worked with my sports psychologist on like natural, like like actually they're breathing exercises, but they like like actually they're breathing exercises but they like, if you do it over time, they like reset your, your vagal tone, to like get you back to baseline, and they're like it's called biofeedback so I've been working with that and then like natural adrenal support to like get me back to this baseline that I needed to be at.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: And Broken Arrow is kind of like the test.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Italy was hard because I had one of those panic attacks and like broken arrow was like a test of can I be like just in my own body and and like enjoy this thing that I love so much and I also really I mean, other athletes have been doing this way before me.
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: So I was a little late to the the game on this, but I really started using the heart rate monitor on Coros and really just like keeping myself in that zone and ignoring everything else and that was just my race plan.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Like are you in the zone for a marathon?
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: And I like just stuck to that and I just like looked up and I was like right away, I was like situated in that top 10 and I felt really good and my heart rate zone was where I wanted and I wasn't thinking about other people and I was just like, okay, like I'm where I'm supposed to be, I guess I'll just keep running.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: And then the whole race I just kept focusing on that and kept moving up, staying in that spot, lost a couple spots, gained a couple spots, but it was like just such a relief to feel like totally myself and have that hard work pay off.
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: And then, yeah, yeah, it was a big transition for me, but the race strategy was all about my heart rate zone and I think that helps a ton, because it's really easy again to be like where should I be in this field of stacked people?
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: And it's really nice to just figure it out by your own fitness.
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: Now, you've raced a lot of Golden Trail Series races, so it's not like this is new to you, right Like after Mammoth and all these other races you've done, do you feel race anxiety still?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to understand that, because I get really bad race anxiety before races and I just assume like all right, everybody gets this and once the gun goes off, all that shit goes out the window anyway and you can just keep moving on, or do you do?
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: You do you deal with like imposter syndrome on these race on the start lines as well, like how do you feel?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to be honest, like, um, I like I've been yeah, I've been racing for a really long time at a very competitive level but, like my relationship with race anxiety and competition pressure has definitely been like a challenging one, but one that I've really been able to grow in.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that a lot of it for me has like stemmed out of like, of course, everyone has to deal with like the high pressure of performance comparison, what they want to do like everyone has their own relationship with it and it can be everyone has a different approach to it and I think it's something that it's really hard to like pinpoint the one way to address it.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: But for me, what really helped make move the needle there was actually realizing that it wasn't just like a mental game and it was actually like how to support my body physically and and mentally to that point and that's what changed it and so it, and so it was like actually like it's not about for me, it wasn't about like the right mindset, it was actually about like these, like kind of somatic practices, if you will.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: That like set me back to like the baseline of like stress that I should actually have, because it points in my life.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: It turned into like it felt like why, why it's not that big of, like it's hard, but like I'm not.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: You know, it felt like I'm going to war or like something that was just disproportional and it would have like this, like I'm like well, you're not going to die, right, but it would feel like this, this really intense, like sensations, and so that was really nice to realize that it wasn't about addressing my mindset, it was about addressing like my body's, physical and like a mental I don't know the right word but like the needs of my body and my psyche.
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: And that came from like like concrete practices, much like training, interesting, and that helped me.
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for being candid about that.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: I do want to we'll get more into it as we go.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: I do want to talk about, like sports psychs and stuff like that, just cause I find that stuff is so important.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: Um, but yeah, I do want to talk tape pack really quick.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Was it hard for you to transition right off of broken arrow?
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: And then it's literally the next weekend you're in Mexico racing, like did you have any fatigue?
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: Were you tired?
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: Like how does like I?
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: Because I don't like racing back-to-back weekends.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I'm not a huge fan of that I mean, um, of course, yeah, of course, I was wrecked.
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: Like I landed in mexico and I was like, oh boy, like what, what did I think I was gonna do?
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Run two marathons back-to-back, like that was smart.
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: But I mean, honestly, I think one of my strengths is recovery.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Like I'm, I'm, um, like I kind of I love the golden trail series because it it's this fun challenge of it feels like the tour de france, right, like can you do it all, can you keep going and accomplish results like back to back to back.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: And I love like the feeling of like the rankings, like keeping them where you want, and it's it's stressful too, like, and you're exhausted at the end of it, but to me it's it's like a fun challenge, um, and so when I I was exhausted but I also like knew I was in great shape and so I just ran, you know, you just take some days off, run really easy, and you're on the start line again.
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like the beginning of Tepic, the like I was really tired the first three miles but I just got into the groove, like about 10 miles in, and was just like, oh yeah, like I'm fit, that's right.
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: So I think that's the thing about back-to-back racing is you kind of have to trust that your body's ready for it and not stress if you're tired.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: But also you need to take care of yourself.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: You need to get a massage, you need to eat a lot, you need to drink a lot, you need to sleep a lot.
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: You can't just like.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: The game at that point is your recovery, and a lot of people think the game is your training.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: But that's only half of it, right?
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: So true, so true.
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: You had a massive result there.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: I feel like you and Sarah Carter both had the breakthroughs you were looking for in those in that race.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: How, how, like amazing was that for you to finally get in the top 10 of one of these races?
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, you know, crazy cool field, crazy big field, and then on top of that, like it's in a beautiful area, like what, what?
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: What did that mean to you?
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: I love running and I I want to do it my my whole life and do it competitively as long as I can, and so, like that feeling of getting top 10 was like that feeling like I can do this, like my my, like I can accomplish my dreams, like this.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: This is real.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And yeah, it's like it's those moments that are hard to put into words, like you just feel like everything that like I think it's so cool in sport because you can have these dreams that you can like see and feel turn in reality and like when you like go through that process, you realize that really crazy things are possible.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: And I just think that's so good for people because it's like putting together the fact that you can become like these dreams.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: But and yeah, it was I mean, it always has to do sort of with luck and opportunity too.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: I think that's like one thing that is important to say is like it's not discounting my hard work or anyone's hard work, but I think it was Shalane Flanagan that said a quote something like everyone's going to have their day, you just don't know when.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Flanagan that said a quote, something like everyone's going to have their day, you just don't know when.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: And I really love that Because, like you, if you keep going and you keep growing, like you will have your day and you'll have more than one day, but like you can't plan when or how, but you just need to believe it's going to happen.
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: And I think that's really key, because I think we can get so down on ourselves when it doesn't go our way, but that it's very important to stay in the game, because then you turn around and it's like wow, like I'm on that day, I'm seventh in the world and of course, you know, like I said, it actually wasn't the most competitive stage, but I'm super proud of it and it was easy for my career.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think too is like.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: So it's so cool for me, not just as a fan, but as someone that follows the sport very closely.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: I love seeing like young, up and coming athletes start to figure it out and like, start to break through.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: So, for instance, like and you know this as much as anybody does do top 50 at some of these races is like an insane result.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: You've had a few top three, top 20 results, and that's knocking at the door, and then, all of a sudden, you crack through into the top 10.
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: You're like, oh my God, like this is possible.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: I can do this and this is.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: And it shows you.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: You know, it's almost like that little mental unlock too, cause once you get, once you achieve that level, you're like okay, I can get back to that level.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: And then it's just a matter of getting back to it and continuing to, you know, to grow and improve.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: So it's really cool just as a fan and as someone that follows the sport very closely to see athletes just like start to crack that level and figure it out Neat.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely yeah, and it does take time for some people and other people it happens really quickly and that's like a really important thing to know.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Like you just have to trust the timeline you're on.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean like good example too, too.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Like you're in the process of figuring out and then you take an athlete like taylor stack, who you ran with at um at western dude.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: What insane like taylor stack is is on.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: He's rolling the dice right now and he's working out for him like I don't know what he's doing, but it's working.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: So some people have immediate success and some people it does.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: It takes time to crack, crack it, but once you figure it out it's like so sweet, you know that you, you just overcame that and you're you're in the process of uh, you know, of grinding through.
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: So it's kind of cool.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, and it's yeah, it's so true.
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: You can look at like people's accomplishments that happen when they're 23 or when they're they're 29 or when they're 30.
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: And you know I, or when they're 29 or when they're 30.
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: And you know I love comparing those things and realizing to trust your timeline.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: Like you see, like Nico Young breaks the American record when he's 23.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: And then, like the same time I'm going to ruin his name, but like Anders Engram, the European record holder, ran 12.44, did it when he was 29.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: And so, like it really is important to to trust your timeline.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, taylor also is, uh, an insane athlete, so he's always been very, very talented.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: it's awesome being his teammate you know who's really inspired me lately as well, um and like, because I I feel like he he reminds me of a lot of athletes is mason kopey, who kind of had great results but like never figured it out until this year, and then the dude just has, has it all figured out for some reason, like he's yeah, and it's just like it clicks.
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: So like once you achieve that level, it is kind of neat that like it's you, you're just there, so yeah it does stay with you, I agree, like it's something you earn and, yeah, it becomes part of you and you don't have to like be afraid of losing it.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: It's true, true all right, let's talk.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Uh, let's talk that alpine glacier trail.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: Uh, because that dude that course looked stupid hard uh yeah, it was a little ridiculous, like um, but no, no, like.
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: This is one of my favorite things about it is that, like, when you are doing these races, there's often a point that I'm always like what on earth am I doing?
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: And it always is like there's like one point in the race that I'm just like what, what is this?
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: And it, I think it like adds some levity to it.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: How ridiculous it is sometimes.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: Um, I raced in norway, uh, the um, the golden trail race in norway a couple years back, uh, the strand of fjord, and it reminded me of that, where it was just so, so rugged and muddy and insane.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: Um, but you love it that.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: That's what we're, that's what I'm here for, honestly did it throw you for a loop, that they cut the course a little bit short?
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Uh, it was supposed to go to a high point and then they kind of changed, or something like that yeah, to be very honest with you, it, it, it was.
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: It made it harder for me because, um, I'm, I'm an endurance athlete and uh, the golden trail races are sometimes already fast, they're very fast, and um, the fact that, like, if they cut 600, uh, vertical feet of gain and I'm, I'm gotten a lot better descending this year too, and so my strategy was really to like, attack the climate, attack the descent and hang on in the in the loop, and I mean I don't have the leg speed that some of those guys do, and so it made it made it a lot harder for me.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: To be honest, I didn't get as many spots as I wanted, but I also just knew to to just keep a level head and you know, just do what you can do.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, they told us like 10 minutes before, so it was dynamic for for sure, but it's mountain running too, right, you can't be upset.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: That's part of the sport.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: So they made the right call is for safety and yeah, for sure, for sure, yeah.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: Can you talk a little bit about where the final is going to be and when it is?
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: Yes, so the final is in Italy and I think in Trento, italy, or Trentino Again, probably butchering that as well and it's October 9th through 12th.
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: I think the men's prologue is the 10th and the men's final is the 12th.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: If they keep the same schedule of women first, men second, if they keep the same schedule of women first, men second, and the women's prologue will be the 9th and the women's final will be the 11th, and I'm excited.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: The course looks like a loop, which I'm excited for.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: The flower thing is not my favorite.
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of people say that.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's just say, like you, just pray that you don't get lost, which I did in 2023.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: But I've gotten better at that too.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the course looks really really dramatic, like extremely steep climbs and steep descents, and it's going to be a blast.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: Cool, cool, cool cool.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: And then there was was.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: Did you say there was one other race you were gonna do besides that?
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: yeah, I'm gonna do the wild strubel, uh to qualify for uh occ in 2026.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: Like we were saying earlier on, I really want to um make occ a priority next year.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: I think it's in like the long-term interest of what I'm going to shine at most in my career.
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: So it's always been hard for me because I love Golden Trail so much because you get to travel all over the world, you get to see these amazing places you would have never otherwise.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: So it's always going to be like a priority for me in a sense because of that like cultural and just travel aspect to it.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: But really um have want to.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm saying I've never kind of fit in a utmb race properly, but I'm gonna try now I, I mean, I love to hear it.
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, man, I just went through the whole process.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: I mean we did a big race preview episode for it and that was the first time I like I did a really deep dive into occ to learn more about it and just that whole course, like the four giant climbs, like that is an epic I.
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: I in fact like, if you were to like, link it up against utmb, even it's, it's mostly the last 30 something miles of utmb, but it is different still.
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: That is a beautiful course, like I have to say, like that I get.
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: I get why people want to go out there and race it and throw down there.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: It makes a lot of sense to me.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, and I can say that I've had the privilege of racing Marathon du Mont Blanc four times and always it's just the highlight of my year.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: It's so Chamonix is so beautiful and the course is so epic, and I think it's just a special kind of challenge and so, yeah, I definitely want to experience occ too.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: Um, next year I want to do both of those.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: It's just basically a chunk of that course backwards, more or less correct, or a chunk of the occ course backwards for mont blanc.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: It's like a, it's like a horse, it's like you go like.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: It's just like a horseshoe loop around um, so it doesn't like start as far back, but you get parts of it, yeah, and anyone listening to this is gonna be like oh yeah, you're definitely putting an eloquent description of the course.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Similar gorgeous views that's funny, that's funny no, it's, it's so cool and it's so beautiful.
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: Um, cool, cool, cool, cool.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: All right, so I like to, so I like to hear that's the plan for 2025.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: I got to ask you, or 2026, I got to ask you a training question what is it like?
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: Like you train with a lot of, like a lot of really well-known athletes put it that way right.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Most notably, lauren Gregory was one of the best descender, like female descenders, on the planet.
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: What's it like, absolutely what's it like training with some of these people Like obviously they're friends, but like it's got to probably like be so much fun.
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you know what it is so much fun Like.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean I can't speak like high enough of Lauren.
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: She's just a superstar human and a superstar athlete and so I love training with her.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: Like her, moving to Boulder has been like a huge, just like lucky thing in my life selfishly.
• 43:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's a badass and she inspires me every day.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: And same with like a lot of athletes who I get to train with.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: Like that, I think, just training with people who are the best at what they do, I always say, like, surround yourself with people who are the best, and I take that very seriously in both my work and my training and it's about like lifting each other up and also like, yeah, so the downhills they're a blast, like it's really fun.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: Just like Laura and I will like chat and just like bomb it down green and that's a fun feeling to be like just talking with someone and running as fast as you can downhill and yeah, it's fun, that's so cool.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: How have you liked living and training in Boulder the last year?
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I do really love training in Boulder.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: It's a great time.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: I think there's a special feeling of knowing that there are so many elite athletes like here sharing their goals.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: Um, like, I also love training with kate and jeshuan when I get the chance here, and my my coach, kathy.
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: She has a little club team and, um, she, I really appreciate her, she's a great coach and she's uh and a lot of her athletes are focusing on different things road, trail track but she has an amazing job of just integrating everyone's own schedules and then also combining us.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: And so I like Boulder because it's allowed me to kind of still have that community.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: And, apart from training, it's a little boring and lonely sometimes, but I think that maybe I'm just snobbish comparing it to Geneva or things like that.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: But I think as an athlete, it's like paradise to just have that community and it's good.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: You should be a little bored when you're training really hard, that's true.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: That's true.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: You mentioned Geneva.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: We got to talk about that Like what is it like living and training abroad?
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of people listening to this have probably been to Europe and been abroad.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Right, it's one thing to visit there.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: It's a whole other thing to live there.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: What was it like for you?
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: It must have been amazing country.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: It's just so, so beautiful, and training in the alps is just like heaven on earth, like there's nothing better, in my opinion.
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: And geneva is a really fun city because it's like there's the level of new york, things going on, um.
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: But then it's just like a quiet little town on the side of a lake and it's sort of um, I mean, swiss people would say it's not a town, but you know, as Americans, like it's not that big, you know, and so it's.
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of it's a cool combination of how close the worlds of everything are.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: Like I think that's like the biggest plus to it.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: I could take the train to Montreux and or the bus to Chamonix in 30 minutes to Montreux, an hour and a half to Chamonix, and then you're like training in the best places in the world, and then the next day I'm back in the office at the UN headquarters on the side of the lake and it's like okay, that's cool and that I don't think there are many places in the world that just things can be combined like that.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: Think that's.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: That's how I would describe switzerland like it's just like the strangest combination of the coolest things, like business, diplomacy, banking, trail running, and like it's all just and they're all good.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: They're good at all country and food.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: They have the such good food and and expensive.
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: It's very expensive food you can't.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: I mean if you can afford to eat.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: No, just kidding.
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: That's the only thing about that's true.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Everything is swiss, francs, man, they don't, they don't yeah, they always.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: They'll get you the swiss francs only going up somehow, no matter what, it's true, it's true.
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if you want to invest in a currency, that's the one to do.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Um, what's, uh, with the ability, with your job?
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: Like, like, do you think you'd ever go back there full time?
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Like that would be pretty sweet.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely I think in 2026, I'm going to be there a lot more, probably not full time because it's going to involve a lot of traveling and as well, but absolutely I would be.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I would happily retire in Switzerland and always happily work there full time.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't blame you.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you kind of stated your professional goals, but we didn't really talk running goals.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, good point You're obviously knocking on the door of a high ranking.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: Obviously, with Golden Trail, you're going to the final.
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: What else do you want to accomplish in the sport?
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you tell me, like, what are your state of goals for that?
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I guess I have a lot of goals in this sport, but I want to like.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: The core goal is I want to be the very best I can be and I want to reach that top 10 podium in the world status on the best stages in the world.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: I want to see what I can accomplish.
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: I don't really know if it's some set number, but I just want to really realize my full potential at races like OCC and the Golden Trail World Series.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: I'm really proud to be one of the top three American men making the final because it's a clear mark in that I'm one of the best in the country and I can represent my country.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: But of course, the solid goal is that I want to represent Team USA as well for the World Mountain Running Champs, because that's just really special.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: It goes back.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: That feeling of representing your country is a huge honor.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: So that's a goal.
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: And um, um, yeah, I think I really want to make like a.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: An impact through sport is really important to me.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: I think like I used to sort of shy away from like stating this goal, but like the core the core reason I run is because I love it and it's a complete blast, but like a really another, really core reason is that, like I really think that sport and like human movement has like the ability to inspire us, and so, like it's really important to me to, like you, like, use my platform to create positive impact in the world, whether that's through, like how I combine my work with the UN, or like I'm really proud that I am like one of the that I'm an openly LGBT athlete in the on the world stage in trail running, and I want to create more space for everyone to know that they belong in their dreams, no matter what they are, whether that's trail running, road running, starting their business, like.
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: I think, in a lot of ways, like those things, they don't matter.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: Like we, we all are who we are, but it does matter when people like feel like they can't do something because of who they are, and I just my message is, like that's just not true.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Like you can do anything regardless of who you are and you really not true.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: Like you can do anything regardless of who you are and you really do belong.
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: And you know, I'm not the only athlete saying that and or the only person, and there's been so much positive change, but I think that that's my goal too is to really like bring that like message that you don't have to like put pressure on yourself to like be something.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: You just have to like really love who you are and then like let it unfold be you be you.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: I love that yeah, that's a beautiful answer.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: You know this is.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: This is an interesting thing and I always I really I've just started asking athletes this question just because, like this is always out of pure curiosity like we get some things right in the sport and we get a lot of things wrong what do you want to see?
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: What do you think we could do better as a collective in the sport to make this a better sport?
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that?
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: In trail running, In trail running.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess there's so many different ways to answer that Inclusion-wise or like Just in general.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: In general, I think there's.
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, obviously inclusion is a huge topic, a hundred percent.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: Um, that just yeah, you take it away.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: I don't want to answer for you yeah, I don't know.
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, well, I am, I've got to think of like the targeted way I want to answer it.
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: I mean I think like I have a lot of dreams for the sport.
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: I I like I really think that it's incredibly exciting and I think that it should be continued to be like professionalized but also in like the authentic soul way that we, we athletes and people who love the mountains value.
• 51:35
  Speaker 2: So I mean I would just love to see it in the olympics.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Is the honest truth, like I, the huge, like you talk about dreams and goals, like I would love to to try to make the olympic team in my sport.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: But I think like there's a lot of like fear that that if that happens, it's going to take away like the soul of the sport and and the real like epicness of it, which I don't want at all, like I love the epicness.
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: But I think like we should be coming together and saying like we can accomplish both at the same time.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Like we, I think a lot of the emphasis should be on like filming, like getting the technology and the money to film these crazy races like OCC, and like proving that that level of insane course can be in the Olympics can be like that, because I think people sort of underestimate how much people love it, how much they love watching it, how quickly it's growing.
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: And you like, look at the tour de france, like it's so epic, there's nothing watered down about it and people love it, they watch the whole thing all the time.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I mean when I was training kind of the same ritz of my french and swiss friends, like it was never not on the TV, like and I think I'm obsessed.
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I'm obsessed to it.
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: I'm watching the documentary on Netflix.
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: I love it so good.
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a and so, but I think that, like, the thing that we should be working on collectively is like in our sport, is that we can have both.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: We can like have this like professionalism, while also keeping the soul of the sport, really true, and I think that there can be like a fracture in our sport of like one or the other, and I I just think that that's like a total false dichotomy.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I, I, I'm sorry, no, no, continue, oh, no, that's all.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was just going to.
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: I really agree with you.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: It's funny, man.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: I just had this conversation with Matt Daniels and we were talking about this because I've always come from a place where I was not a big proponent of us going into the Olympics.
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: And the reason was, specifically, you see a lot of Olympic sports where you sorry, you see a lot of Olympic athletes where the TV rights there's money obviously made in the TV rights but the athletes don't necessarily make the money, and that was always my concern.
• 53:36
  Speaker 1: But when you spin it back a little bit and start to think about, okay, from our sport as trail running, as a sole sport, you look at skateboarding, you look at surfing, you look at climbing, you look at a lot of sports that have been able to kind of even cycling, have been able to adapt the Olympic model, but also they have the entire other side of the sport where the Olympics aren't really the biggest aspect of the sport.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: Right Of cycling, the Tour de France is 10 times bigger than Olympic cycling.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: Climbing is the same thing.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of aspects where, even with professionalization going further, the Olympics don't necessarily overarch what the sport really is.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: It's just a sub-discipline, if you will.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: So I think we can have our cake and eat it too.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I think we can do both.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: To where it is a soul sport, it remains a soul sport.
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: You have that dirtbag lifestyle that never goes away, like you still have these little grassroots trail running events that don't even have like timing chips, they're just writing the time down and stuff like that.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: But you can also have the Olympic aspect of it.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: So I think both can coexist honestly.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally agree.
• 54:47
  Speaker 2: I think they both can coexist and, like, when I say professionalism, like it doesn't even have to be the Olympics, I just want to see it continue to reach that like level of fame that like that road cycling has, because I just think that we're seeing like the market on it exploding and I think that's really exciting for everybody involved.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Like it's bigger contracts for athletes, it's bigger opportunity for people who want to be part of it.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: More inclusion spaces, more yeah, Like I think it's just a net positive and I also think that it has, like there, there, when people care about the mountains, it has like a good impact on the world too, because, like, the more people value these outdoor sports at that level, the more people are going to want to preserve these spaces.
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, yeah, no, I think it's a beautiful answer.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: It's interesting on the contract space because you know it's funny like as I've grown this podcast and as I was like I it's kind of weird.
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: I get to meet everybody in the space.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: You know, I make friends with every and so many people look for contracts and are looking for contracts and the sport has grown so much.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: But still I feel like this year contracts have been so hard to come by and teams have either really gone the ultra route it's, at least I feel like in our space it's still very much trying to figure itself out.
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: as far as the short trail aspect, you know, you see Brooks investing heavily on the short trail end but you see a lot of brands like Hoka and others really kind of pivoting towards.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: You know, they're obviously heavily invested in UTMB.
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: They're heavily invested on the ultra side.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: So it seems like brands are still trying to figure it out on the contract side of what they want to be and who they want to, how they want to do it.
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: So I don't know, this is a kind of a shot to call brands out and be like hey, like, let you know the.
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: I think the investment in the short trail space is the place to go, because if there is an Olympic discipline, it's probably going to be.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: My guess is either going to be the vertical or it's going to be somewhere in that half marathon to mountain classic distance, maybe 50K, but I think it's going to be what's the most sellable aspect on television, right?
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think that we are seeing.
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: I agree we're seeing a lot of pivoting, but I do think that there's a lot of growth in this ultra investment.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: I do think we're seeing it, and I think, quicker than people realize too.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: Of course, the nature of markets is that they change quickly, but I think we're going to see a lot of growth at both.
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I think so too.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: And it's so cool, man.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Man like our little sport was so tiny not so long ago and I think in the next five to ten years it's going to be unrecognized, like part of it will be unrecognizable with how professional it's gotten.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Just yeah, for sure.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: It already feels like lining up to these races where I'm like wow, okay, like yeah, yeah, I'm like this is uh quite elite you get so competitive in the last few years like Like it has.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: It has yeah, out of doubt.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: You're like, wow, I better keep getting better exponentially.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: All you young guys, man, I'm see, I'm old, I'm 34.
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: So I start to call you guys young whippersnappers at this point.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I feel old too.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: I feel old when I get out of bed.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: I, I, I, I you know, I get up and I'm like, I feel like.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Oh man, that's not good.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: Anyway, yeah, man, I I'm trying to think of what else we can kind of get into.
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: I know we kind of talked about professionalization.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: We talked more about, like, what your view on the sport is, talked about personal goals.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: I'm curious to see who inspires you talked about personal goals.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: I'm curious to see who inspires you.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think I've been really lucky in my life because a lot of people inspire me.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: To be very honest with you, I have a long list.
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think I'm easily inspired as well.
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: I think, like people doing cool things lifts me up and it makes me want to be do my best to.
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: But there I can go from like the personal level of like my family, like my mom, um, and she inspires me like the way that she, she uh runs agency into the judicial, judicial department, but she like created it from what was just like a tiny little grant program until like a multi-million dollar agency in the judicial department of and so like that has inspired me because it proves to me that, like you, creativity is such an undervalued trait in the world and like, if you like, have creativity and like human connection and that like determination to make like visions come true, you really can.
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: So that's one thing that inspires me.
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: A lot of the openly LGBT athletes who are just paving the way to grow, inclusion and support in space inspire me Like that.
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: That really always makes me tear up, like just gets me and I it really does inspire me and, yeah, I think also like the people that I work for with at the United Nations, they inspire me because they're working really really hard under extremely difficult political times right now to keep like life-saving aid and life-saving support alive to people and they're not giving up, despite things that would make people give up, and so there's certain some answers.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Uh, I think people that also love it.
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: Uh, anyone, like whenever you see someone who just like is lit up in that like joy and excellence of it, like all the top athletes that you just see it, like tata pagacha, or like you just see this, like that she inspires me.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: It's just like what a like someone who just like fully claims that like flow, state and glory of it.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: Um yakov ingebrigtsen, huge yakov fan.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: I saw him in person training in st moritz and everyone was making fun because I was like like taking pictures.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: I would have been like yeah.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, for sure, Do you still have fun in the sport?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: Like, do you, do you like you know?
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Oh, of course I wouldn't be doing if I didn't.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: I asked a lot of hard work.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: I asked this question.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: It's a lot of hard work and it becomes a grind and you gotta, you gotta love it.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: If you're going to do it every day, you gotta love it, and I mean.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: I adore it Don't seem like they love it as much as I would have thought.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: So I love to hear that you, oh, I absolutely adore it.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: I know it's.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, I love it like threefold.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: First of all, I love running because when it all clips, you feel like you're flying.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: Then you multiply that on top of when you're mountain running.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: You really feel like you're flying because you look down and you're like, wow, there's more sky beneath me than earth beneath me right now, and just that feeling of like being like on the side of, like it feels like you're an avatar and you're like on the side of, like a floating mountain and like that.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: That's what it feels, feels like, and that is just a blast.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: And then, on top of that, I love traveling.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: I love seeing the world.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 2: I want to see every country I can, like I want to die seeing all 200 countries and I so like, I love it for that reason too, like I get to see the world.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 2: And then, um, the third reason is that like human connection, like you get to meet people and and in places you never thought you were going to.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Another really good answer.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: What?
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: What's one place actually?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: How about this?
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: What's a race you haven't done yet that you want to do, oh my gosh Zagama.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: Okay, okay, oh he's gotten away from me and I'm I'm like this year I will.
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: I'll be damned if I don't finish in the top 30 of the final, just for that.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: Zagama squat.
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: Okay, Mark it now.
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, Zagama looks so epic and I, I've really wanted to do it, so it's on the list.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, dude, I love it, I love.
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I've been like peeved about missing it the last year.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: What's on the top of your playlist these days?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: What kind of music are you listening to?
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: What kind of podcast do you listen to?
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: What's your jam?
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is a question where I could easily be made fun of.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: There's no one answer to it.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: Well, in Mexico I had Style by Taylor Swift just stuck in my head and then I was humming it apparently, and then Courtney and Rachel and Lauren told me that I was humming it so much that it was stuck in their head so we had to blast it in the back of the truck.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: There's a story of Top of the Poeus for you.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: I played violin when I was a kid, so I'm really the like epic movie music like Pirates of the Caribbean and Lord of the Rings and you know, super nerdy trail runner.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Answer there like nothing gets me excited.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: Like the Lord of the Rings soundtrack same.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: I love the Lord of the Rings.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 1: I it's almost fall.
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: I it's like every fall.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: I usually will go through all three movies again and just like maybe even the Hobbit.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: We'll see if I get to that.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: They're pretty good.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, they're so good man, I could dedicate undeniably yeah, it's undeniably the best.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, easily.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: Tolkien is a hero.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: He's he's a hero of mine, for sure.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's the man, what I actually never read, which because I feel like I'm always working or I'm always running and I'm and or I like.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll like watch TV and work at the same time if it's like a just not like a mentally demanding task.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: So I like.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: I listen to a lot of audio books, though, but I feel like I sometimes relisten to my childhood favorites, like I, which I should listen to new things.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: This could be homework for me but, I like realist and all the lord of the rings, you know the percy jackson uh lightning thief.
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: I really listened.
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: I listened to all three twilight books so embarrassed.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I think I need to.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: This wouldn't be a good uh essay answer on on a college application.
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: I listen, man, whatever you're into, it's your, that's you, I like it, I like it, it's, it's.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good stuff, that's good stuff.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: All right, nicholas, I think that's a good point to stop.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so too.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 1: I am such a fan.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: Thank you, James.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: Thanks for giving me the opportunity.
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: It's been really fun chatting.
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: It was amazing.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, great chat.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: Yep, what'd you guys think?
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: Oh man, big shout out to Nicholas for coming on the podcast.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Love this conversation and just so excited for the next one.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Such a fan as well.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: Like, if you're not a fan, you should be Absolutely.
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: Um, guys, give Nicholas a follow.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: You can find him on Instagram at Turco that's T U R C?
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: O.
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: Underscore Nicholas, give him a follow.
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: Um, let him know what you guys thought about the episode.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: And, um, yeah, send him some words of encouragement.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: Like I said on the podcast, one of three us men invited to the golden trail world series final for 2025.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: That is a huge deal, so big stuff.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 1: Big fan Wishing the best of luck to Nicholas as he takes on and continues his journey for the rest of 2025.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: Guys, before you get going, if you enjoyed this podcast, please give us a five-star rating and review on Apple, spotify, podcasts, youtube, wherever you consume your podcasts.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: That'd be amazing.
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: That's how we can continue to tell these great stories of all these amazing athletes.
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: And very last but not least, if you guys are in the market for a new vest belt pack, anything you know hydration solution related, ultimate Direction has you guys covered?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Use code steepstuffpod for 25% off your purchase.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: Again, that's code steepstuffpod.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: One word 25% off.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: Your purchase is going to get you 25% off any product or cart you guys are going to have on ultimate directioncom.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: Lots of good stuff on that website, like I said, belts, the new race vest, there's quivers, all kinds of good and juicy stuff that has dropped in the last year from ultimate direction.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: So, guys, thanks so much for tuning in.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 1: We've got a whole great lineup of episodes for you.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Really appreciate you.