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Is the Biden Dam Breaking? · Pod Save America

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. Joining us today,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: I said Jon Favreau?
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah. All right.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Well, you know.
• 0:11
  Speaker 3: Is this a bit? Is this a love it bit?
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: That's crazy. I've been doing this for too long. Welcome
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: And I'm Jen Psaki.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Jen, welcome back to the pod.
• 0:25
  Speaker 3: Thank you. What a time to be alive. Thank you
• 0:27
  Speaker 3: for inviting me on during this easy moment in democratic politics.
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all straightforward from here. Yes, a lot to discuss.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: The effort to bounce Joe Biden from the ticket appears
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: to either be stalling or picking up momentum, depending on
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: who you ask and at what hour. Democratic senators are
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: suggesting a reckoning may be at hand. Donald Trump goes
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: after Kamala Harris and flirts with Marco Rubio at a
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: rally in Florida and goes hard yet again on Biden's
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: golf game. And despite all the chaos, Democrats are actually
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: succeeding in breaking through with a message, or a message
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: is breaking through despite... what Democrats are doing about Project 2025.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: I also want to note that in the shameless plugs department,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: MSNBC just announced that you, Jen, will be hosting a
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: special in September in Brooklyn called MSNBC Live, colon, Democracy 2024.
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: Is that about whether we'll be one?
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Well, certainly that's part of the discussion. It has to be,
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: but it's all, it's me. It's everybody's favorite hosts other
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: than me. And we're all nerdy just as you guys are.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: And we'll talk about where the state of our democracy
• 1:31
  Speaker 3: is with lots of panels.
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: It'll be fun.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: September feels like a lifetime away.
• 1:35
  Speaker 3: It is kind of.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: And that's the beautiful thing about politics. All right. So
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: the house and Senate have been back in DC for
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: a couple of days. As of this recording, roughly 10
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: house members have officially called for Biden to step aside.
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: depending on whether or not you count Jerry Nadler, who
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: went to the microphones to try to unslice the bagel.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: The latest defectors include Pat Ryan of New York, who's
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: in a tough district, and Mikey Sherrill of New Jersey.
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: And this morning, former Speaker Nancy Pelosi, who's been pretty
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: oblique in her public statements so far, went on Morning
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: Joe with this message.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: It's up to the president to decide if he is
• 2:06
  Speaker 5: going to run. We're all encouraging him to make that
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: decision because time is running short. He's beloved. He is
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: respected and people want him to make that decision.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Do you want him to run?
• 2:23
  Speaker 5: I want him to do whatever he decides to do.
• 2:26
  Speaker 5: And that's that's the way it is. Whatever he decides,
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: we go with.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: So no senators have said that Biden should go, but
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of them are stopping just a few millimeters
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: shy of that, including Patty Murray, the most senior Democrat,
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: and Michael Bennett, who went on CNN last night to
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: say Biden can't win and that he'll take the Senate
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: and House down with him and that Biden doesn't have
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: a plan to win in battleground states. Yet he didn't
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: actually call on him to drop out. Richard Blumenthal said
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: basically the same thing this morning when reporters chased him down.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: And then just before we recorded, Senator Tim Kaine, whose
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: colleague Mark Warner has been out in front, went pretty
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Delphic with this.
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: I have complete confidence that Joe Biden will do the
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: patriotic thing for the country. And he's going to make
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: that decision. He's never disappointed me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: He's always put patriotism and the country ahead of himself.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: And I'm going to respect the decision he makes.
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: For his part, President Biden spent the day at the
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: NATO summit in D.C. after making an opening speech last
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: night that went pretty good. This morning, he reportedly met
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: with union leaders, part of his strategy to rally his
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: allies behind him. One group of Biden supporters does appear
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: to be defecting right now, and that's Hollywood types and
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: late night hosts. Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert came back
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: from break and both did pretty withering monologues. That was
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: notable on Colbert's part because he hosted a huge fundraiser
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: for Biden at Radio City this spring. And then this morning,
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: George Clooney, leader of the Biden resistance at this point,
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: co-hosted an L.A. fundraiser that John and Tommy and I
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: went to publish an op ed in The Times calling
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: for Biden to go. So there's a lot happening. Let's
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: start with this. Just Jen, where are you emotionally right
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: now on the question that is preventing us from focusing
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: on the even bigger question of how to defeat Donald Trump?
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: What do you think President Biden should do?
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: Well, the weird way my low-grade or high-grade anxiety manifested
• 4:09
  Speaker 3: itself last night was that I cleaned out my refrigerator,
• 4:11
  Speaker 3: which is a very weird suburban thing to do, but
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: very satisfying.
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: I did my closet. Jen, I did my closet.
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: This is like we're telling everyone, you don't know what
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: to do. Buy your book. Clean out your refrigerator closet.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: You'll feel like you have something.
• 4:26
  Speaker 3: For sure. You know, I think what I am most
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: closely watching right now are the vulnerable members. There's a
• 4:33
  Speaker 3: lot of noise here happening in Washington. Publicly, some of it.
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of word garbling and carefully worded statements.
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: You read a number of them. But it's less, we
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: care about everyone's voices, but less the members that have
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: no shot of losing their reelection and more the ones
• 4:52
  Speaker 3: who do. Because those are the ones who are looking
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: at the most up-to-date polling. And who the most rides on.
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, if we if Democrats lose the House and
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: the Senate or the House and the Senate and Trump
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: is elected, that is a whole scary ballgame there. I
• 5:10
  Speaker 3: don't even know what analogy I can think of a
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: super scary one. So it became a ballgame. But and
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: so that's what I'm most watching. And you didn't mention that.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: And they didn't go as far as some of the
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: people you said. But it was interesting to me on Monday,
• 5:21
  Speaker 3: Senator Tester and Senator Brown also came out and basically
• 5:25
  Speaker 3: expressed concerns from what they're hearing from their constituents, right?
• 5:29
  Speaker 3: So that is another way of saying, I don't know
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: if I can win, right? And a lot of people have,
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: there's a lot of ways to look at this because
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: it is a question of like, who impacts you at
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: the top of the ticket, right? That's a question here.
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: And a lot of them are running ahead of Biden anyway.
• 5:48
  Speaker 3: So some will tell you, and some pollsters have said
• 5:50
  Speaker 3: it's baked in, right? That's an argument. And it may
• 5:53
  Speaker 3: be in a number of these races, but it's not
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: in every race. We've seen that in places like Wisconsin.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: And also this race, and you guys have talked about
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: this and I totally agree. It's going to be one
• 6:02
  Speaker 3: on the margins, right? So it's not really about looking
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: for where there is a 10 point drop. I hope
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: there's not that. It is who is going to help
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: propel or at least not drag down.
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it was... I think Sherrod Brown, just
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: before we recorded, was speaking to reporters and basically saying,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: maybe you could take this as reassuring or not, but
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: some version of, hey, this separation between where Biden's at
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: and where these Senate Democrats in important states are at,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: that divide isn't going anywhere. We can still win these
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: Senate races, which I think manages to both be incredibly
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: disconcerting and also somehow reassuring at the same time.
• 6:45
  Speaker 3: It's maybe. Both?
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: Can I add one more interesting thing? You know, John,
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: there's a member of Congress from Washington State, Marie Glisenkamp Perez,
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: who is such an interesting candidate. She's a freshman. And
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: she's basically been saying Trump is going to win and
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: that the House needs to be a check. So that's
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: also concerning messaging. I'm not and I'm not that's not
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: even I'm not being critical of her. Like she's saying,
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: let me be a check. The presidency is lost. It
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean she's right. It just means there's all sorts of,
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: in these vulnerable races, in these districts, I think is
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: where the most telling information is being gathered from. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: I actually think that is what Speaker Pelosi, and I'm
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: sure we'll talk about her because she was the big
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: person today, and Schumer and others are listening to because
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: they want to keep the Senate, they want to win
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: the House. And that's when things start to get trickier
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: in their loyalty.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Yes. So let's talk about what Pelosi said, because I
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: do think that So I am sure there are members
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: that are genuinely expressing their belief that Joe Biden is
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the person that we should stick with. And I respect
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: people who have that view that they're earnestly expressing. I
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: think it's harder and harder to justify. But there are
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: people that have that view.
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: I actually think there are probably a number who are
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: because they're worried about the alternative. And I'm not validating that.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: But that is a real discussion happening right now on campaigns.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: And so, no, and I think that's true. And I
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: don't want to pretend that that's not real because I
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: think people, when they're mad or upset or their stakes
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: are high, they go right to saying, oh, you're not
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: really being honest. Let's trust that a chunk of those
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: people are being sincere. Then there are other people that
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: are being very careful publicly while expressing a lot of
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: concerns in private. Now, some of those people, I think,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: are just being timid and seeing where the people are
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: going so that they may lead them. But I actually
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: don't think that's the case with someone like Nancy Pelosi.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: And so it does seem like there's that that what
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Nancy Pelosi is doing in some level is saying, I'm
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: not calling for you to drop out while these foreign
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: leaders are in Washington. And when I don't believe public
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: pressure is the most helpful way in which I can
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: reach Joe Biden. What is your take on what Nancy
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: Pelosi is.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Trying to do here?
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: Well, one, I think she rarely says anything publicly that
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: isn't purposeful. So it doesn't mean everything she says is purposeful.
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: is like talking pointy and perfectly exact in that way.
• 9:10
  Speaker 3: That's why she's such an interesting, one of the reasons
• 9:12
  Speaker 3: why she's such an interesting person to watch and see
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: what they're saying. We had her on our show a
• 9:17
  Speaker 3: week and a half ago, and she basically said a
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: version of, I'm with Joe Biden for now. Like there
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: was an added words that was kind of an interesting tell.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: I will say just from seeing them interact and talk
• 9:30
  Speaker 3: on the phone, she loves him personally. I mean, they're
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: almost flirty when they talk to each other, right? They just,
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: they've known each other for decades. there's respect on their
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: political strengths. She loves him. She also is a political
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: animal machine who wants to win the house. And so
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: I think I heard all of the things you said.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: I also think that a calculation for her and others
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: like her is we don't know how this will end
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: and they don't, nor do I. I don't think we
• 9:59
  Speaker 3: know how this will end, regardless of people's views on it.
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: And we don't want to weaken him publicly. And so
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: if it is him, we're going to be with him 1,000%.
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: And you can't have the former Speaker of the House
• 10:12
  Speaker 3: out there calling for him to step down publicly, right?
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: I think that's part of her calculation, I would suspect.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: But at the same time, if Nancy Pelosi wanted to
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: express unequivocal confidence in Joe Biden, she'd be doing that, right? Like,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: if Nancy Pelosi wanted Joe Biden to remain in the race,
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: she would not be speaking the way she is speaking.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I think that's 100% true. That's what I mean by
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: she doesn't say anything without purpose and without thinking strategically
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: about it. But I also think she's walking a careful
• 10:43
  Speaker 3: line here, as many of them are, that I understand strategically.
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I don't think this can be the tightrope people walk
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: for that much longer, but I understand a little bit
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: of their calculation.
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I do too, although I respect it
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: as long as it is part of an effort to
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: get to a better outcome as opposed to simply trying
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: to get through a specific news cycle. And speaking of that,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, after the debate, I think there were a
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: lot of calls that said something like, if Joe Biden's
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: going to remain in this race, then what he has
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: to do is an energetic and aggressive campaign of town halls, interviews,
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: press conferences, a rigorous schedule. I do not think that
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: anyone could fairly say that that is what we have seen.
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: We've seen a George Stephanopoulos interview, some conversations with radio hosts.
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: There does seem to be a kind of an effort
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: to kind of slow this down to kind of buy time.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Biden met with union leaders earlier today, and he said this.
• 11:49
  Speaker 6: You know, we have two strong, strong organizations in America
• 11:54
  Speaker 6: that I look to for our security. One, literally, and
• 11:58
  Speaker 6: I mean this sincerely, is NATO. NATO, a joint assembly
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: of democracies that made sure we're keeping the peace and
• 12:05
  Speaker 6: no one's going to screw around with us as strong
• 12:07
  Speaker 6: as it's ever been. And I think of you as
• 12:09
  Speaker 6: my domestic NATO.
• 12:10
  Speaker 3: Can I just say as a sidebar, I never want
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: to hear NATO out of the mouth of another presidential
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: candidate again. Sorry, Tommy. I understand he's talking about it.
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: It's happening right now, but it has been a very
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: present repeat talking point. And I don't understand. He has
• 12:27
  Speaker 3: a very good public argument to make.
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: So yes, it is.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: No, no, no.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: That is part of this, which is You know, look,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: it is, I think, a true piece of conventional wisdom
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: that foreign policy like NATO is not going to be
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: the place where a Democrat wins the presidency. So it
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: is quite a twist to then use NATO to frame
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: domestic policy as well. But but I do know I
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: love NATO.
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: I'm like almost Tommy level nerd on this stuff. But still,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: A lot in this episode is going to be about
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: the difference between what we say publicly and what we
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: say privately. And I feel duty bound to say that
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: before we recorded, because Jen was stuck in traffic, she
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: did say, and I quote, fuck NATO. And I'm sorry
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: to out you for saying that, but I'm not going
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: to sit here and be a hypocrite.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: Don't love it because context is everything.
• 13:18
  Speaker 7: It is.
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: Bumper to bumper traffic and you can't go anywhere downtown.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: So I felt bad making you wait to record.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: So that's no. And I know. And therefore, oh, well,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: whatever happens to the Baltics happens to the Baltics. But
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: but anyway, we love the Baltics. But no, but but
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: he refers to the unions as my NATO. And I
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: do think it speaks to this balance. Joe Biden is
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: striking between efforts to actually assuage concerns about the way
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: in which age is a liability among voters and and
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: his efforts to try to stop this debate because he
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: believes that what we must do is move on to
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: the conversation about Trump, which I don't think is wrong.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: But what do you think right now between the balance
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: of his efforts to actually address these concerns versus trying
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: to kind of circle the wagons to prevent these concerns
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: from forcing him to step down?
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: Well, first, I will say, regardless of the outcome, I mean,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: his campaign team, who I feel the most for right now,
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: because I think this is really, really hard. Yeah. they
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: have done a very effective job of circling the wagons.
• 14:21
  Speaker 3: I mean, you can disagree with it. You can think
• 14:24
  Speaker 3: he shouldn't be the nominee moving forward, but they have
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: been very effective. The CBC being out for him, union
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: workers and others. Where there is a place where there's
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: a missed moment for him, I mean, there's many, but
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: in this moment, is messaging about Trump and why he's
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: a better choice than Trump. He doesn't need to be
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: the deliverer. I understand the George Stephanopoulos interview and he's
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: doing Lester Holt on Monday. I'm sure a lot of
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: it will be, right? Like, are you up to the task?
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: Have you seen a doctor? All these things. You can't
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: control those questions. But when he speaks at public events,
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: he could be giving a breakdown of how horrible Project
• 15:06
  Speaker 3: 2025 is. He could be doing his Scranton Joe, which,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: by the way, is his sweet spot and he's very
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: good at. of like, I'm going to fight for you.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: I have been for 50 years. And that other guy
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: only cares about himself so he can get himself out
• 15:19
  Speaker 3: of jail. It's a little bit that you have different roles,
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: as you well know, on campaigns. And I think the
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: campaign staff are doing a great job of circling the wagons, right?
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: He doesn't need to be the public circler of the wagons. But,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: you know, I think he's got to show strength, too,
• 15:36
  Speaker 3: which he's done. It's just there's the other part he
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: seems feels missing.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, this is, I think, where it all starts
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: to feel a little bit disingenuous, which is, I think,
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: one thing, even senators that are leaning pretty hard against
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden then say, if Joe Biden wants to have
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: my support, you know, in the convention and he's not
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: going to step aside, then he needs to be a
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: more aggressive and energetic candidate. He has to be out
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: there more. And now there are some, you know, maybe
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: he can, maybe he can't, but right now he's not.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: And I wonder what you worked for him Why do
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: you think, other than the explanation that doing more events
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: would not be helpful to his cause, what would be
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the argument for why he has not been out there
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: more in the two weeks since the debate?
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: I wish I had an answer to that. And I
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: did work for him. And as I've said, I love
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: Joe Biden. He is a great human being. He's been
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: a phenomenal president. He has completely kind of survived through
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: odds against him a thousand times over, done more than
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: anyone thought he could. The thing that I, I haven't
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: seen him in more than two years since I left, right?
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: And so the thing that I can't figure out is
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: when I was working for him, I'd never met anyone
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: who loved spending time with members of Congress more, which
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: is not something our former boss, President Barack Obama, would
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: have said, right? And most people didn't say it, to
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: be clear. And Joe Biden, we used to bring members
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: of Congress on trips with him and elected officials. He
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: just liked to spend the entire time talking to people.
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: He's an extrovert. He loves being around people. I don't
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: think like press conferences are his superpower. I'm not sure
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: whose superpower that is. Like it's not, and I don't
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: even know if long form, many, many, many interviews, they
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: do some, but like not, but being out there in
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: public and with people and engaging with people is his superpower.
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: And what I don't understand is why they haven't done
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: more of that. He also is a person who picked
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: up the phone. I mean, most elected officials need a
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: briefing memo to like call a member of Congress. Like,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: what are you calling them? What are you asking them for?
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: He would just pick up the phone and call Democrats, Republicans.
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: I'm sure it drove the legislative affairs team insane because
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: it was like, you know, but that's what he would do.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: So we don't entirely know all the things going on
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: and who he's talking to and who he's not talking
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: to in terms of advisors or also members, but it
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: doesn't seem... It's not it's not similar. It's not like
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: when I was there in terms of what he would
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: be inclined to do publicly.
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: So in lieu of those kinds of events and those
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: kinds of conversations, what we do have is he's apparently
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: going to talk to Lester Holt on Monday. That will
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: be two and a half weeks since the debate. And
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: then tomorrow, after the NATO conference concludes, he's going to
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: do a big press conference in which, once again, all
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: eyes will be on Joe Biden and his performance. What
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: does success look like for you in that press conference?
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: What does muddling through look like and what does failure
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: look like?
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, first of all, the challenge of this press
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: conference is that because they haven't done a lot, there
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: are so much focus and emphasis and expectation about it, right?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, he's done a bunch.
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Of other interviews and done like four events a day.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: I mean, he did have a very busy day on Sunday,
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: but he could have had many other days like that.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: And then it's like, well, he answered that question weird.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: He talked about AUKUS, but like he's done 17 events, right?
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I think success is.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: Honestly performative. It is, um, not having a moment where
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: he freezes. He may lose his train of thought, but
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: I think if people look at, he's done that more lately,
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: but I think if people look back at him talking
• 19:33
  Speaker 3: 10 years ago, there's, there's a, he's a storyteller and
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: he interjects stories all the time and it makes it
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: a little confusing. So he may do that. Um, but
• 19:43
  Speaker 3: I think it's, it's really performative. And, um, does he
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: come with energy? Does he drive them message home? Um,
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: does he talk about Trump in an effective way? Does
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: he not start a non sequitur of a different topic? Um,
• 19:59
  Speaker 3: you know, there are a couple of things that were
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: during happened during the debate. I mean, you know, obviously
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: people talked a lot about how he looked right. And
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: that is, I think, watching, what was the most jarring, right?
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: And maybe it was a terrible night and that's it.
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: But there were also moments where he answered questions that
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: were hard to understand as well. And I'm not saying
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: that's an age thing, it may be, but I also
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: think that it leaves people at home wondering like, well,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: what are you gonna do? And how are you different
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: from Trump? And that's kind of been a little bit
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: lost from the coverage because there were so many other things,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: but I think it's having like a clear, concise contrast
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: message with Trump being confident but not condescending, you know,
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: in how he talks during the press conference. So it's
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: tone and it's performance, I think, largely. But, you know,
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: and as you know, I don't know the conversations that
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: are happening internally. None of us do. So it may
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: be that he didn't want to do other interviews and
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: that many advisors advised him to. I'm not sure, right?
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: Or other campaign events. That is also possible. You know,
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: presidents are, they do... They are the ultimate deciders, which
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: I think is important for people to know and understand
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: about this moment.
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I don't know how you we talked about
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: managing the anxiety around this, but it is strange even
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: talking like this. You know, we're both people that worked
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: for administrations that want to advocate for the Democratic candidate,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: want to advocate for a Democratic candidate. president. And also, like,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel, but like, I feel
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: a little guilty as we have these conversations, not in
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: particular because of criticizing Joe Biden. I don't think we
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: owe Joe Biden anything. But because I feel for the
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: people that are working in those jobs, trying to do
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: their best under these circumstances who themselves don't know what
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: the right thing to do is. How do you think
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: Yes, I think that's I think about that all the time.
• 22:02
  Speaker 3: And look, I don't I owe Joe Biden the chance
• 22:06
  Speaker 3: of being the white house press secretary. And I'm very
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: aware of that. Right. That doesn't mean, um, that doesn't
• 22:13
  Speaker 3: mean I owe not discussing what we're all seeing with
• 22:16
  Speaker 3: our own eyes. Um, and I think part of the
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: challenge right now is that, um, this is a healthy
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: discussion that happens in a democracy about the path forward.
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: It's never happened before in this way, but it is
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: sort of exposed you know, kind of some real resistance
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: to having a conversation when a conversation needs to be had.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know, when you come on and you
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: guys do your podcast or when I do my show,
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: it's not like we're just solo reporting on what we think.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: We're talking about what people, as in members of Congress,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: the American public, people who are running advocacy campaigns, are
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: saying and thinking, right? And that's important for people to
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: understand and digest. So I'm very sympathetic to a lot
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: of things right now. One, people being pissed out there.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: Whether they're pissed at me or you or other people,
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: that's fine. Be pissed. It's okay. Frustrated. I get that.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: This is frustrating. I mean, Donald Trump is like a
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: convicted felon who is also like a sexual assaulter. Like,
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: how is this even happening, right? And I also think
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: a lot about the campaign staff. Because when you're on
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: a campaign, as you and I both know, we've both
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: been on winning and losing campaigns, right? And when you're
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: on a losing campaign, and we don't know that this
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: is one, so I'm not saying that. Don't come at me.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: I'm just saying when your campaign is having a down moment,
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: and even for Barack Obama, we had down moments, right?
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Probably caused by you.
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, those were our up moments. I had up moments
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: when you had down.
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: Moments, yeah.
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: You are dug in with the people you're working for.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: You believe in the person you're working for. You believe
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: in your colleagues. You're lifting them up. The vast majority
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: of people on this campaign are doing this to save democracy.
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: All of them are. And they don't know what Joe
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Biden is going to decide. They're not talking to him
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: on a daily basis. Most of them are not. And
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: I think that's also important for people to understand. They're
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: just trying to charge forward with the campaign. And they're
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: sort of stuck in a version of purgatory as well.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: So I think it's very difficult. And I think from
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: the people I've talked to, it's a range of emotions.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: You know, I think it's a range of emotions, which
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: is understandable.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Yes. And it does, I think in moments like this,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: especially when it's sort of, you know, an intra-family dispute,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: emotions can run high and it leads to both kind
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: of both sides accusing the other of being out of touch,
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: not having their finger on the pulse. So I do
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: want to put some data to this. because the polling
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: is painting a pretty damning story. Yesterday, the Cook Political
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: Report shifted projections for six states towards Trump, moving Arizona, Nevada,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Georgia from toss-up to lean Republican. Very concerning, moving New Hampshire, Minnesota,
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: and Nebraska, too, from likely Democratic to lean Democratic. And
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: new individual swing state polls, including those from Emerson, all
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: show the battlegrounds slipping away. There were some polls that
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I saw just before we started recording of some swing
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: districts in New York. where we were deep, deep, deep underwater,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: really troubling signs. There was a sense out there post-debate
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that what would really change the public statements of Democrats
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: would be polling. Has the polling reached that point? Or
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: are people overreacting to the dip post-debate? What do you think?
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: Well, I think that in the days post-debate, the argument
• 25:44
  Speaker 3: was from the Biden team was there hasn't been, we
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: don't know what the public thinks, right? And that was
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: accurate at the time, right? And still it's like, it's
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: a little bit murky out there entirely what, you know,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: based on polling. But I think it still comes down
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: to these are the states that need to be won
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: in order to win the presidency. And a number of
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: these states are also the states that need to be
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: won in order to hold on to the Senate. And
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: a number of these districts are districts that need to
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: be won in order to win the House. Now, there
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: is a question out there that, again, I think campaigns
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: are talking about, about the alternative. And the alternative is
• 26:24
  Speaker 3: very clearly, in my view, there's a lot of really
• 26:26
  Speaker 3: amazing Democrats on the bench. But because of the timeline
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: and everything, I think it is clearly Kamala Harris, right?
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: So I don't know why there hasn't been kind of
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: an overwhelming Kamala Harris would be a great president and
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: she would be a fierce, amazing campaigner, right? But that's
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: not typically the message. I'm not, that is just, I'm
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: observing what people are saying, right? It's typically, don't take
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: it away from Kamala Harris if it's open. That would
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: be unfair. Now that's valid too, but also I think
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: there is, not a clear 100% comfort level with the
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: alternative either. Or that is my sense. I don't know why,
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: but that is also what I'm feeling right now from
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: talking to people and reading a lot.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: No, I do think that is part of it. I
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: think it's a few things. I think one of it, right,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: is that if justifying sticking with Joe Biden, given the
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: polls and the debate performance is difficult, I think actually
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: coming to believe in a caricature of Kamala Harris is
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: sort of a useful psychological defense. I think that that's
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: absolutely part of it. I also do think something happened.
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: First of all, the vice presidency is a goofy job.
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: It's a goofy job. Selina Meyer, we're looking at you.
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: Like it's weird. And, you know, you're in a very weird,
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: you have a great house. But other than that, it
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: is a very awkward, challenging job. Kamala Harris, the vice president,
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: I'm gonna call her vice president now because I keep
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: calling her. She is like, in my view- an undervalued talent.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: She's a very fierce communicator. She's very strong, especially on
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: one of the core issues that the election may be
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: won or lost on, which is abortion rights. You know,
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: and this is why I think when she did a
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: couple of interviews after the debate, people were, I was
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: sitting on the set with a bunch of other MSNBC
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: anchors and we were like, everyone was like, that was great.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, she was, that's what she's doing out
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: in the country and nobody is really tracking it. It's just,
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: that's who she is. But there is a caricature out there.
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: There is it's almost like public opinion hasn't caught up
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: with what she is doing out there. And also, we
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: live in a country that is sexist and racist. So
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: like there is that not everybody at all, but there
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: is a level of it that does impact elections.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Of course, I also do think like a liability with
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Vice President Harris that has nothing to do with her
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: is that she would bear some of the cost of incumbency.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: And you're starting to see that in the polls. But
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: there are two other parts of it. So the vice
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: presidency being fundamentally goofy, combined with occasional moments where she's
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a little goofy, not in any kind of disastrous way,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: but like they're just goofy clips of Vice President Harris.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: You can see them as endearing. You can see them
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: however you want. But I do think that that has
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: sort of led to an overtorked opinion about her political skills.
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I think the other piece of it, too, is You know,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: she was a district attorney and a prosecutor. And then
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: she runs for president in a Democratic primary at a
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: time in which there was a great deal of focus
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: and antipathy in a segment of the base around prosecutors
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: and police. And I think it's made I think that
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: that plus the lack of a clear lane for her
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: in the primary led to some confusion on who she
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: is or where she stands, which wouldn't be a problem.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: if she became the Democratic nominee, because she could talk
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: about her record, I think it would be reflective of
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: the ways in which she's evolved on criminal justice and
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: the way she talks about it now. I don't think
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: that that primary was purposeless. I think there was incredibly
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: important value to the discussion we had around it. But nonetheless,
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: I do think that carried a bit of a legacy.
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: But I think all of it, to your point, led
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: to a kind of, yes, she's undervalued as a political asset.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: And look, I get a.
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: Can somebody send this to the K-Hive? I just would
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: like the K-Hive to see a clip of me praising
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: Vice President Kamala Harris because I think they never think
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: I do it. Can we just send this to the K-Hive?
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know how you reach them. Some sort of
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: a signal. So a lot of Democrats right now feel
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: angry with Biden. I'm among them. A lot of Democrats
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: feel angry at Democrats like those of us that have
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: felt like he should step aside. It is a divisive moment.
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: Whether it's Biden or not, what does... stitching this coalition
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: back together look like?
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: Well, a decision because people have a range of views
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: out there and that's clear, right? And, you know, just
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: as you've said a number of times, and I totally agree,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: it's like the notion that this isn't a real discussion
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: or people aren't worried is just not being honest, right? And,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: you know, but the notion that it is so clear
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: to everybody what the right path is, is also not true, right?
• 31:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's not true. I think the challenge right
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: now is that it's this sort of purgatory, right? Where
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: the focus and the coverage and the attention on, and
• 31:31
  Speaker 3: I'm not, I think I've, this is an important thing
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: for people to talk about and cover. So that is
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: not a critique. Like it just, it is happening. We
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: have to talk about it. Is overshadowing the fact that
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: like Trump may pick between J.D. Vance and Doug Burgum
• 31:48
  Speaker 3: and maybe Marco Rubio and also his, The Republican platform
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: is now 18 pages and it has things like on Russia, Ukraine,
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: it's like peaceful Europe. That's like their whole thing.
• 32:01
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's so many things that are there just
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: isn't space for right now. And I think a unifying
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: thing would be a decision because people will come around
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: to what the unifying thing is. I think for the
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: most part, it's just what is it?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I think it's I think it's more than yes,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: I think that's right. But I think it's a decision
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: that is justified by events.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: And facts. And so that to me means either Joe
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: Biden decides to stick it out and proves that he's
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: up to it.
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: Or he steps aside. But right now we're getting neither.
• 32:36
  Speaker 3: You know, but how do you define that? And who
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: defines that? This is the challenge, right?
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Yes, I know. I know.
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: There's no this is what I'm struck so much by, by.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: a lot of these statements of a range of elected officials, right?
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm not sure. I don't know that anyone's
• 32:53
  Speaker 3: deeming Senator Mark Warner, bless his heart, to lead this process,
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: but I'm not sure who is leading this process. Who
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: concludes it? How does this conclude? Because if it's the president,
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: he said he's going to run and he said he's
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: not stepping back. That's where his decision is. So if
• 33:12
  Speaker 3: there is a movement for that not to be the decision,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure who's running that process or how it concludes.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: I would it would be because I think that it's
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: it could be Joe. It really could be Joe Biden
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: saying this conversation is over and here's how I'm ending it.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: But that can't come with a press conference two weeks later,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: a Lester Holt on a Monday, you know, a call
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: to Joe and Mika, which was, I think, pretty friendly
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: towards President Biden and That's not answering the concerns. That's
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: ignoring the concerns. And so I do think that if
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden says, I'm not going anywhere, but doesn't make
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: any of these changes and the poll numbers continue to slip,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: I think then you would start to see a Chuck Schumer,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: a Nancy Pelosi, others starting to become more forthright.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: That's why I think, because I think it's very hard
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: to define what, and just to like I've been very
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: candid about what I'm hearing from people and I will
• 34:10
  Speaker 3: continue to be and what I think, but like to
• 34:13
  Speaker 3: pay devil's advocate on the Biden team, like what is enough, right?
• 34:17
  Speaker 3: What is enough to satisfy that? And so to me,
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: I think it's more about vulnerable members running and where
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: they stand and how this could impact them in the
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: House and Senate.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Look, I do think in terms of Joe Biden himself,
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: I worked for President Obama. You work closely with Joe Biden.
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: There are these two sides to Joe Biden, and one
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: of them is this magnanimous and generous, kind and decent person.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: And the other is somebody, I think, who does want
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: to prove himself. He wants to be the one to
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: do it. You know, even in that interview with Mika
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: and Joe, he said, who the hell else could hold
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: NATO together? And I'm just wondering, as somebody that's worked
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: closely with him, what would be the kind of conversation
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: that would open the possibility of Joe Biden realizing he
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: ought to step aside and pass the torch?
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'll also say in February, he said 50
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Democrats could beat Trump, right? So we're in the moment
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: we are in. You know, I do think that he
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: is somebody who, he is, he is, I know he
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: doesn't seem this way publicly, especially during the George Stephanopoulos interview,
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: which my gut is there was this strategy to be
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: overly confident, and it came across as disconnected. But I'm
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: not saying that was the right strategy. I just think
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: there may have been a strategy. But this conversation is
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: probably going to be from people who tell him, if
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: the path is that he's not going to be the nominee,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: that he will take the House and Senate down, right?
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: That he doesn't have a path to victory, if that's
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: what people believe. and he will take the house and
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: send it down. Now, there are people he very much
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: trusts and he's close to in his life who have,
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: in my presence, given him hard, you know, have conveyed
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: hard truths. Mike Donilon is certainly one of them. You know,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: Ron Klain is one of them. There are people in
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: his life. I don't know that that's how they feel, right?
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: And so that, That ultimately, but all of them are,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: Ted Kaufman, are incredibly smart, politically astute people, right? Who
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: love Joe Biden, love his family, are proud of everything
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: he's done. By the way, 99.9% of Democrats are as well.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: But I don't know what tips that for those people
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: who are close to him in his life and his
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: family to say, it can't be you. And part of it,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: I think, is confidence in the alternatives. which again, I'm
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: not validating, but I do think that is part of
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: the thinking and the conversation.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: So I do think we'd be, obviously the reason I
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: think this conversation is so tense is because of the stakes.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump held a rally last night. It's his first
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: big campaign event since the day after the debate. He
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: has been basically golfing while his poll numbers rise, which
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: is obviously dispiriting. He's been out of public.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: Eye for 12 days, which has also been happening during
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: all of this.
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: Yes, which, and by the way, again, it points to the,
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: they're doing a better job this time than they are
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: last time, because when your opponent is digging a hole,
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: you let them. So let's just share just some of
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: the nonsense that we've heard from Trump at this event.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: So tonight I'm officially offering Joe the chance to redeem
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: himself in front of.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: The entire world.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: Let's do another debate this week so that sleepy Joe
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: Biden can prove to everyone all over the world that
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: he has what it takes to be president. I'm also
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: officially challenging Crooked Joe to an 18-hole golf match right here.
• 38:14
  Speaker 3: I will give him.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: 10 strokes aside, and if he wins, I will give
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: the charity of his choice, any charity that he wants,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: $ 1 million.
• 38:26
  Speaker 7: I think they probably think I'm going to be announcing
• 38:28
  Speaker 7: that Marco's going to be vice president. I don't know.
• 38:31
  Speaker 7: Because that's a lot of press. That's a lot of press. Marco,
• 38:35
  Speaker 7: you're going to vote for it, I hope. Well, you
• 38:38
  Speaker 7: may or may not be there to vote for it,
• 38:39
  Speaker 7: but you'll be involved. You know, it's the first time
• 38:42
  Speaker 7: I'd ever done this.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: I went.
• 38:44
  Speaker 7: I didn't even know what the hell NATO was too
• 38:46
  Speaker 7: much before, but it didn't take me long to figure
• 38:48
  Speaker 7: it out, like about two minutes.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: So he does.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Pack there, as we like to say. And that
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: wasn't even the scariest stuff he said in the last
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: few weeks.
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: So, you know. It is not wrong that this conversation
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: about Joe Biden is preventing us from focusing on the
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: threat Donald Trump poses. One thing that has happened over
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: the last week is that Donald Trump, I think being
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: too cute by a half, decided to say, I don't
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: know what Project 2025 is. And by the way, whatever
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: it is, I hate it. Except the parts you like.
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: Except I wish them well.
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: And I wish them well. I wish them well. First
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: of all, why do you think Trump decided to back
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: away from 2025? And do you think the reason.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Drawing attention to it has led to this surge in
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: interest in what it might be?
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Well, I think there was a bit of a surge
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: in interest right before, in part because effectively a lot
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: of outside groups and democratic organizations were really pushing and
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: spending money on it for people to kind of be
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: aware of the dangers of it. Also, the president of
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: the Heritage Foundation, after the immunity decision by the Supreme Court,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: came out and said something completely insane about a revolution.
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact quote.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: He said, it'll be bloodless as long as the left
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: lets it be bloodless.
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: Which is quite threatening.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: Correct. So that's crazy. Aggressive MAGA think tank in action there.
• 40:17
  Speaker 3: I think he's a brand guy, right? I mean, I
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: think he's like, eh, this name doesn't seem popular. People
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: don't seem to like it, right? But the truth is,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: and I know you guys have talked about this, but
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: like people who worked for him and would work for
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: him again are running it. Russ Vogt, who's on the
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: short list of potential chiefs of staff, is literally writing
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: major chapters about executive authority, right? I mean, the plan
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: is his plan for the most part. So I think
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: he probably thought, eh, this branding's not good. I don't
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: want people to know more about my plans. I mean,
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: that's what I think the Republican platform committee thing is
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: all about. I mean, the 16 page Republican platform committee
• 40:58
  Speaker 3: plan basically reads like a series of like tweets, right?
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: It's a plan. It's a joke.
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: Policy proposal because they don't want people to have more details.
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: And that's kind of the strategy, I think.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is. Um, This is their second term plan.
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: This is their off-the-shelf plan. That's why it exists. That's
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: why it is named what it is named. It is
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: made by people who.
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: Were in the administration.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Everyone writing it will be inside of the administration. And
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: by the way, Donald Trump continues to be an undisciplined
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: oaf who knows nothing about the government, who will cede
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: control of the administration to these functionaries. These are the
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: bureaucrats that will be making the decisions. That is the plan.
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: He doesn't get to distance himself from it. Jen, what
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: are we going to do?
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: I was hoping you were going to have an answer
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: to that question.
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I just, I'm glad we talked. We, I do think
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: like the, the, the, the concern that this endless debate
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: about Joe Biden and his fitness is preventing us from
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: prosecuting the case against Donald Trump, I think is actually
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: quite true. I just think they're laying the blame in
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: the wrong place. Like if you, if we want to
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: get back to a conversation, about Donald Trump, it is
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: incumbent upon Joe Biden to get this conversation to end
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: either by proving it should be over or by stepping
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: aside so that it is over. I don't see another
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: way to it.
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: Yes. I think the proving it is over, though, is tricky.
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: And I don't know how that is defined. And there
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: are a couple of paths here. One is the clock
• 42:39
  Speaker 3: just keeps ticking and the Republican convention is next week
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: and Donald Trump has a rally on Saturday and maybe
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: he'll pick his, his running mates and Biden has a
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: Lester Holt interview on Monday and maybe he'll be really
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: effective in punching back at Trump, which he has been
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: in the past. Maybe he will be. And then all
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: of a sudden we're 10, we're 10 days from now
• 42:59
  Speaker 3: and the convention is five weeks away instead of seven
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: weeks away. And the clock could tick through because he
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: has had a broad base of support or at least
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: a group of support from members of Congress, including the
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: CBC and others who have stood by him. The other
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: path is that vulnerable House and Senate members are so
• 43:21
  Speaker 3: concerned that it drives people like Pelosi and close advisors
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: of the presidents who read polls to say, you have
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: been a tremendous president. You have kind of exceeded any
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: expectation in the best possible way and defied so many
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: odds and if you continue running it could hurt our
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: prospects of the house and senate and you don't have
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: a path to victory i don't know the polling that
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: i have seen does not say that but there is
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: that is another path and i don't think we know
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: in this moment where it's going to go but time
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: you know i think part of what's happening right now
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: is things are being scheduled to to gain them more
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: time and if you're them That's a smart strategy, right?
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: Because he's going to have an interview with Lester Holt.
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: Let's see the interview with Lester Holt. Then it's the
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: Republican convention. Oh, this guy's so crazy and there's only
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: one person who's beaten him. They have done, on a
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: staff level, a very effective job of circling the political wagons.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: So it is possible that a couple weeks pass and
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: then it is too late to make a change if
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: it changes the right path forward.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Well, on that note, Jen Psaki... Thank you so much
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: for being here.
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: What a time to be live. What should we organize next?
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: Should we coordinate on it?
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: But yeah. Yeah, no, I think that's great. Yeah, we
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: should be planning. That's a great idea. Jen, thank you
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: so much.
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'll do. Yeah, I guess I'll do my fridge.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: You do your closet. I think that's what's next.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: I think that's right. I'm in. Send pictures for evidence.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Democracy Live 2024. It's an event where Jen will see
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: if democracy is in fact live in Brooklyn.
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: People can buy tickets. It's not just me. Rachel Maddow,
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: Chris Hayes, Troy Reid. All the people will be there.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: They got Maddow. They got Reid. They got Hayes. They
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: got Saki.
• 45:10
  Speaker 3: Alex Wagner, who we love.
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: They got Wagner. All right. Lawrence O'Donnell. O'Donnell. They got O'Donnell.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: The list is unending. It's Coachella for whatever the fuck
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: we do here.
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: We're political nerds.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Come on down. Yeah, that's right.
• 45:24
  Speaker 7: We love it.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: Great talking to you.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Two quick things before we go. Look, as we try
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: mightily to defeat the conservatives here at home in the UK,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: they've managed to eject the conservatives after 14 years of misrule.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: And you can hear more about it in the latest
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: episode of Pod Save the UK. On Friday, they released
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: a special with everything you need to know about the
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: snap election and what a new government and a new
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: prime minister means for the UK and beyond. Imagine that,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: a country having an election in a matter of four months.
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: It is possible. Last week, they also officially launched their
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: YouTube so you can follow them along by searching for
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: Pod Save the UK on YouTube and make sure you follow. Also,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: former White House Social Secretary Disha Dyer recently joined Hysteria's
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: Alyssa Mastromonaco for a great discussion about imposter syndrome, public service,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: and the simpler times when Donald Trump was just an
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: annoying reality TV show host. Head on over to Hysteria
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: to listen and make sure to subscribe wherever you get
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: your podcasts. That is our show for today. Thanks so
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: much to Jen for joining us. Dan and John are
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: back with a new show on Friday morning. And, you know,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: see you out there in the... In the Biden Wars,
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: I guess.
• 46:28
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  Speaker 4: Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Mia Kelman, David Tolles, Kirill Pelleviv,
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  Speaker 4: and Molly Lobel. Why are two old, unpopular men the
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  Speaker 4: only candidates for the world's most demanding job? The answer
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: lies in the peculiar politics of the generation born in
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  Speaker 4: the era of the bomb. It's a generation that has
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  Speaker 4: politics sees the two main parties accusing each other of
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