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Most are Doomed · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  [upbeat music] Welcome to The Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous deep dive here on Progress and Perfection with me, Amon, and my buddy, John. [upbeat music] Remember that when you went to COPAC? No. [laughs] No.
• 0:16
  Did I miss out on this? One, two, three. Welcome to COPAC. No, I have completely purged that memory. What's your name? Amon. Shut up. They don't let you say it. Then everybody's like- [laughs] "Stand up. Stand up."
• 0:33
  You stand. "Sit down." [laughs] All right, so. Here we go. Freaking Silkworth. We can't get away from this guy. We can't get away. Can't get away from this guy. We're almost done with him. He's got a lot to say.
• 0:43
  He's got a lot of opinions. He's got a lot to say. All right. He restates it a few times. Yeah, he does. He does. He's proud of himself. He's a doctor. What do you want?
• 0:50
  I mean, he gave us a pretty, a fairly comprehensive picture of different types of alcoholics last time. Yep. Yep. Uh, and we are now, we'll conclude it today. Yep. We'll, we'll knock out the last couple pages.
• 1:04
  I'll start. Uh, bottom of triple X, page triple X in the fourth edition. "All these," and this is right after all the types of alcoholics. Mm-hmm. "All these and many others have one symptom in common.
• 1:18
  They cannot start drinking without developing the phenomenon of craving.
• 1:22
  This phenomenon, as we have suggested, may be the manifestation of an allergy which differentiates these people and sets them apart as a distinct entity.
• 1:33
  It has never been, by any treatment with which we're familiar, permanently eradicated. The only relief we have to suggest- Hmm... is entire abstinence." Hmm. Okay. How's this hold up, mister- So-... in the medical field.
• 1:47
  Yeah, so- Bro... well, first thing that strikes me is, like, the way he phrases it. "They cannot start drinking." Mm-hmm. So it's not they cannot stop drinking. Yeah.
• 1:56
  And so I think, I don't know, I've gotta think that there was some intentionality to that. Um, because the, they cannot stop drinking is almost like a no duh, you know?
• 2:06
  But like, they cannot start drinking, uh, I think that's an interesting way to put that. Mm-hmm.
• 2:11
  Um, you know, and I, what I think is interesting about that, like the craving piece I think, like, that's kind of a no-brainer. We get that, you know?
• 2:18
  And we'll, we'll talk about that more, but that idea of the allergy, you know, I think a lot of people butt up against that. Um, the idea that it's not willpower. You know, you should just be able to stop. Yeah.
• 2:31
  What's wrong with you? You know, you can, should just be able to stop drinking. And then once you have stopped drinking, like, why can't you just drink normally? Yeah. You know?
• 2:39
  Either stay stopped or just be a normal drinker. Yeah, or just drink like, uh, drink like we all do. Yeah. You know?
• 2:44
  And I think, like, uh, it, it, it ties into that last sentence, the only relief we have to suggest is entire abstinence.
• 2:51
  'Cause like in the culture right now, there's that movement to, um, it's like the tolerance movement. Uh, what's it called? It's got a name. Um, it's zapping me right now. It's not, it's not tolerance.
• 3:06
  But it's this idea that, like, the idea shouldn't be abstinence, it should be, like, figuring out a way to do it successfully. Just some sort of moderation? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got a, it's got a name.
• 3:16
  Hopefully it'll come to me. Okay. You guys out there, you all know what I'm talking about. Uh, it's been a long day. What do you want from me?
• 3:21
  [laughs] Um, but yeah, it's this movement now within sort of the, the mental health community that, that like abstinence is not the answer. The, the answer is, uh, like, how can we help you do this in a way that is, um,
• 3:37
  like more successful? And it applies both to drugs, uh, that model is, is towards drugs, and it's also towards alcohol. And I think there's tons of books that have actually been written about that.
• 3:49
  You know, as an, as an option to AA, like, oh, you don't have to stop drinking. Yeah. Follow these rules. Do this instead. Follow these rules and you figure out how to be a moderate drinker. Hmm. You know?
• 3:59
  Drink successfully. Um, and I mean, so like, I guess I've known a few people who've been able to do that. Hmm.
• 4:10
  You know, to where, yeah, they may have experienced, like we were talking last time, that idea of, like, binge drinking through college or like, you know, problem drinking through college or through this phase, and then, like, they hit adulthood, and then, yeah, they seemingly don't have
• 4:27
  the issue anymore. And they literally, it's like legit, like literally can have like a glass of wine with dinner once a month, and it's like just not a big deal for them. Yeah. Um,
• 4:38
  so I guess the question becomes, like, are they, are they alcoholics? You know, were they truly alcoholics? Um- Some of it becomes a semantic point. Mm-hmm. 'Cause it's like- Mm... okay, well- Mm-hmm...
• 4:52
  perhaps they didn't cross whatever line someone who professes to be and remain an alcoholic crossed- Right. Right... to where, okay, there's, there's maybe the mental, or there maybe is not the mental craving. Mm-hmm.
• 5:06
  Mental obsession, I'm sorry. Yeah. Right. But there was a craving or a desire- Right... or at least heavy drinking early on. Right, right. But that obsession didn't develop, or didn't develop maybe to the extent- Mm...
• 5:18
  that it's got to to really [laughs] latch on for life. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, it, I remembered it. Harm reduction. Harm reduction? Yeah. Okay. That's the new, that's the new- That's the thing now...
• 5:27
  the newbie thing. Right. And yeah, and they apply it to, like, opiate use and heroin. And like part of, part of harm reduction includes, like, maintenance therapy. Hmm.
• 5:37
  So like methadone is sort of in the harm reduction model.
• 5:41
  But yeah, there's lots of, the, like it wasn't called harm reduction when these books start, first started coming out, but like yeah, the, there's all kinds of alternatives to, uh, to not drinking.
• 5:50
  But I agree with you, like yeah, maybe it truly wasn't alcoholic drinking like we know alcoholic drinking. Mm-hmm. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, I know, like, I can't do that. Like, I can't moderate...
• 6:05
  my alcohol content. Mm. I've proven that many times. Like, I'm, I can't do it. Can there be, like, a one-off or a two-off where I'm like, "Oh, I had a few beers"? Sure. Mm.
• 6:16
  But I also know, like, without a doubt, like, the only, the only [laughs] relief that I have is entire abstinence. Yeah. You know, I can't, I can't mess around with it.
• 6:27
  Only relief, and I would add, like, for myself, the only safe harbor. Mm. Because I look at, you know, many, many years of entire abstinence. Right. And it's like, okay, sure. Mm. We all have those thoughts of- Mm-hmm...
• 6:40
  gosh, I was 19 years old the last time- [laughs] Yeah... I did whatever. Right. It, what it st- and it, to me it's like, well, it's not really worth at this point- Right... testing the waters. Right.
• 6:51
  It's not worth, the potential downside is not worth the almost negligible- Mm-hmm... upside- Yeah... to chase that wanting to control and enjoy- Right... drinking like a normal person. Right. For sure.
• 7:04
  And so it becomes a, a safe harbor for me- Mm... of, like, you know what? That's the only assurance that I have of staying safe. I might stay safe, drink a handful, be all right.
• 7:15
  You know, I've screw up some relationships probably, and some examples and standards I've set, um, but to what end- Right... you know? Right. Right.
• 7:24
  Yeah, and I think, like, at this point, you know, it's, it's such a, it's such a, [ts] it's such a lifestyle choice, you know, to not drink, that, like, to drink would create a whole new, like, lifestyle for me. Yeah.
• 7:40
  You know? To even do it successfully would mean, like, "Oh, now I have wine in the house." Or- Yeah. It- If things-... change. Yeah. Just like you were saying, like, relationships begin to change.
• 7:51
  Like, dynamics begin to change. Daily patterns and habits begin to change. Occasions begin to change. Um, how I experience occ- like, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like- Mm-hmm...
• 8:05
  there's so much of a, of a, of a healthy lifestyle that I live now separate and apart from just, like, alcohol consumption, that it's hard to even find a place for it to be inserted into. Mm-hmm. Like, I don't know.
• 8:20
  I don't- And I have to make room for it. Right. Yeah. Like, it would not only be a conscious choice- Mm... to test the waters, but to X something out to include that. For sure. For sure. Yeah.
• 8:32
  So yeah, like, uh, uh, uh, I think, like, yeah, what we're hitting on there is, like, it's not just, like, abstinence in this one area. You know?
• 8:41
  It would, it would, it would have to, like, reincorporate itself into a whole new lifestyle and a new, a whole new way of living- Mm... to go back to it. And like you said, like, is that worth it? No. Like, no.
• 8:56
  [laughs] I mean, mainly I'm sitting here thinking of the disrupted- Yeah... relationships piece, like- Yeah. That's huge... the hell's my wife gonna do? And- You know? [laughs] I mean- You know, look at us.
• 9:07
  We've built up lives. Right. So we actually have stakes- Right... to where at some point along the line, maybe- Mm... there weren't these stakes. Sure.
• 9:14
  Maybe the experimentation, um, I don't know that it ever would be a good thing- Mm-hmm... but it's definitely wouldn't have had the stakes it does today. Yeah. Right.
• 9:23
  But yeah, I look at your face and it's like, "It'd be stupid to do." [laughs] Like, what, yeah. Like, what, well, I'm just sitting here thinking like- And that's the same reaction I have...
• 9:30
  like, oh, what am I gonna go home and tell my wife? Like, "Hey, great news, honey. Yeah. Bought a six-pack." We're all good. "Thought I'm gonna try the drinking thing again." [laughs] Like, that just,
• 9:41
  that just sounds bizarre. Like, I don't know. That just sounds- Yeah... I don't know. It, I'm so distant from it at this point. Mm-hmm. It just seems like that would be a, a weird, I don't know how that would work.
• 9:52
  I don't know how you would incorporate that. Yeah. I don't know. That's weird. So this next paragraph, uh, maybe hits on this harm reduction thing. Mm-hmm.
• 10:01
  'Cause he says, in his opinion, "This immediately precipitates us into a seething cauldron of debate."
• 10:07
  [laughs] "Much has been written pro and con, but among physicians the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed." [laughs] That's amazing. Cheery language. [laughs] Yeah.
• 10:20
  That's just, that's hilarious. You know? That's, yeah. Uh, re- remind me, what's the date of this? So this is '39. 1939. 1939. Right. Uh, and his experience is probably the year, and- Right...
• 10:37
  you know, five, six years preceding that. Yeah. It would be interesting to know if that still, um, still applied. That's what I wonder.
• 10:45
  That among physicians, the general opinion seems to be that most chronic alcoholics are doomed. 'Cause there's definitely a lot more tools at- Right... their discretion- Mm-hmm... and at their disposal. Mm.
• 10:56
  And, like, this harm reduction thing, you know, I Googled it. Mm-hmm. Looked at the Wikipedia, just scanned. It's like, oh, interesting. Mm-hmm.
• 11:02
  So now that at least this is a school, I don't know how big a school of thought, that- Right... okay, just let's see if we can keep them from killing themselves. Mm-hmm.
• 11:11
  And reduce, I mean, it's in the name, reduce the amount of damage done- Right... uh, rather than eliminate. Right. It's like- Okay, I get it. That's a sliding scale. Mm. I agree. Yeah.
• 11:22
  I, I would rather, if it's gonna be one or the other, death or not death, and- [laughs]... death or not quite sobriety, but alive- Yeah... and a chance. Yeah, yeah. I'll take that- Right. Right... every day. Yeah.
• 11:34
  And I wonder where doomed is on the scale- Uh, yeah... between death and life. Right. You know, is doomed over here by death. Um, because if that's true, like, you know, I mean, I've,
• 11:47
  I've seen people where the harm reduction thing does work. Mm. And it does keep them alive, and it does allow them to be successful husbands and fathers and, and, you know, businessmen and business owners.
• 12:00
  Um, and so it does work. Yeah. And so, like, I don't quibble with that solution because it, it's workable for them. Um, and it does keep them from being doomed. [laughs] Mm-hmm.
• 12:11
  You know, and not only that, it allows them to live a life that, that is, I mean, from all, from what you can see anyway, it is a, a, a life that's flourishing. Um, and so maybe there's, maybe that's a difference.
• 12:24
  Maybe that's the difference between alcohol and, like, opiates. Mm-hmm. Like, maybe harm reduction doesn't work with alcohol. You know, maybe the, to his point, like, maybe that is true.
• 12:37
  Like, maybe the, the chronic alcoholic is, in fact, doomed if they continue in their alcoholism as to where maybe the chronic opium a- opium addict has some hope. Hmm. Um- Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:54
  Could, could vary substance to substance. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And with the doom piece, I mean, I think it is. I mean, I think, I think they just didn't have solutions- Mm-hmm... in this.
• 13:10
  So doom was death. Right. It's like, "What are we gonna do?" Right. Whereas today, yeah, we can move folks along [laughs] away from death's door if not exactly into what we envision maybe is their best option. Yeah.
• 13:25
  Um- Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah, that's, it, it's, it's interesting. That's, um. All right. All right. Top of the next page. "What is the solution?
• 13:33
  Perhaps I can best answer this by relating one of my experiences. About one year prior to this experience, a man was brought in to be treated for chronic alcoholism.
• 13:44
  He had but partially recovered from a gastric hemorrhage, and seemed to be a case of pathological mental deterioration." Having a good day.
• 13:52
  "He had lost everything worthwhile in life, and was only living, one might say, to drink. He frankly admitted and believed that for him there was no hope." Hmm.
• 14:02
  "Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury. He accepted the plan outlined in this book. One year later, he called to see me, and I experienced a s- a very strange sensation.
• 14:16
  I knew the man by name, and partly recognized his features, but there all resemblance ended. From a trembling, despairing, nervous wreck had emerged a man brimming over with self-reliance and contentment.
• 14:29
  I talked with him for some time, but was not able to bring myself to feel that I had known him before. To me, he was a stranger, and so he left me. A long time has passed with no return to alcohol." Hmm.
• 14:41
  Uh, "When I need a mental uplift, I often think of another case brought in by a physician prominent in New York.
• 14:48
  The patient had made his own diagnosis and, deciding his situation hopeless, had hidden in a deserted barn, determined to die. He was rescued by a searching party and, in desperate condition, brought to me.
• 15:01
  Following his physical rehabilitation, he had a talk with me in which he frankly stated he thought the treatment a waste of effort unless I could assure him, which no one ever had, that in the future he would have the willpower to resist the impulse to drink.
• 15:16
  His alcoholic problem was so complex, his depression so great, that we felt his only hope would be through what we then called moral psychology." There's the moral psychology- Mm-hmm... again.
• 15:28
  "And we doubted if even that would have any effect. However, he did become sold on the ideas contained in this book. He has not had a drink for a great many years.
• 15:39
  I see him now and then, and he is as fine a specimen as, of manhood as one could wish to meet. I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through and, though perhaps he came to scoff, he may remain to pray."
• 15:51
  Hmm. So two pretty stark cases, and we've seen 'em- Mm-hmm... as well. Mm-hmm. Uh, uh, I, I don't, I can't recount if I've ever seen one, and, and I wanna know if you have, that pronounced, where it's like- Mm-hmm...
• 16:07
  "I don't even recognize you anymore." I mean, I've definitely seen folks come off of the street- Yeah... and get clean. You know, physically cleaned up, emotionally sanitized, and, uh,
• 16:18
  and, and back into the world of the liv- Yeah... of the living. Yeah. Um. Well, so, um, one thing I love here that's, that I think is, is worth emphasizing, [sighs]
• 16:34
  uh, is the statement that, "Following the elimination of alcohol, there was found to be no permanent brain injury." Yeah.
• 16:40
  Because I think a lot of alcoholics and drug addicts get into this position in their use where they feel as though, like, that's part of the hopeless feeling is, like, "I can't think- Yeah... anymore."
• 16:50
  Like, "I've lost the capacity to, to reason, to think, to react." All of those things. The fear is like that stuff is gone, and it's not going to come back. Hmm.
• 16:59
  And I think, like, it's, it's evidence, and he doesn't use the term. I think it may have been discovered after this, but the idea of neuroplasticity and your brain's ability to rebound and bounce back- Yeah...
• 17:10
  uh, even despite the, the sort of death of certain regions of your brain, that your brain is able to recover. As a physical organ. Correct. Yeah. Right. Like, as a physical organ.
• 17:22
  And I think that's just, it's, it's not the fancy word, but, like, that's kind of what, what he's describing there. Mm-hmm. Um, and I think that's important, you know. Because, like,
• 17:33
  if you, if you feel as though you literally have caused yourself brain damage, then it does make the situation feel abs- absolutely hopeless. Yeah. Like, what is there to recover for? Yeah.
• 17:43
  Because I will never be able to get back what I've lost. Yeah. You know? And so, like, I think that's, I think that's kind of important.
• 17:51
  Um- Well, that's the downward spiral that we get into, especially toward the end of, of our drinking, be that the bitter end or before we sober up. Mm-hmm.
• 18:01
  It's like, can't imagine, and it'll talk about it later in the book, can't imagine continuing. Mm-hmm. And equally cannot imagine stopping. Right. You know, it's that jumping off point. Right.
• 18:10
  The, the, you know, I'm just screwed if I do, screwed if I don't- Mm-hmm... situation. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's the fear. It's the fear that manifests itself In that moment of, like, fear of becoming.
• 18:21
  What am I going to become? I'm going to become something either way- Mm... to that point. This is the jumping-off point.
• 18:26
  I'm going to become s- something whether I jump off or whether I don't, and I'm scared to death of both of those options. Um, but you have to go somewhere. Funny, we choose the hell that we know- Right...
• 18:39
  over something that we don't- Yeah, for sure... for so long. For sure. Well, and so, like, I guess the question would be, like, why would I do that? Why would I choose the hell that I know?
• 18:49
  And I think that comes back to the addiction piece. Well, because I'm addicted- Mm... and I feel as though I don't have a choice but to jump into hell. Mm. You know?
• 18:58
  Like, it's the physical compulsion to continue to chase the addiction, um, almost more than the choice that obviously, like now, you can see is clear. Uh, but in the moment, like, there's no choice.
• 19:11
  I feel as though I have no choice. I've got to go forward. Um, but yeah, back to your, your original question, I don't... I'm trying to rack my brain. Um,
• 19:27
  I mean, I've certainly seen people get, this sounds weird, but, like, be brighter. Mm-hmm. Like, their affect becomes brighter. Yeah.
• 19:35
  And I think in that, like, you can, you can see sort of a, a, a transition, a physical transition.
• 19:41
  You know, I've certainly seen people go from, like, being skeletons to, you know, embracing sobriety and becoming, like, fit [laughs] human beings. Yeah. Um, I don't know that it's been, like,
• 19:53
  as unrecognizable as he's describing, though. And I don't know if that's hyperbole that he's going after there or- Could be. And it could be, you know, you see a snapshot as a doctor literally on a day- True...
• 20:04
  and then a year later, however much time had passed- Yeah, yeah... I think it was one year, he said. Right. Another snapshot. Right. Right.
• 20:10
  To whereas most of those that I've experienced, I've seen the gradual coming alive- Yeah, right... in real time. Right, right. It's like I don't see my kids age, but- Mm-hmm...
• 20:18
  you know, I look at a picture a year ago- Yeah... it's like, "Oh, snap." Yeah, right. What happened? Right. Well, so I think that's kind of, I think that's sort of revealing also.
• 20:29
  The doctor had no relationship with his client. Mm. There was no community. Mm. There was no, um, yeah, there was no relationship. There was no closeness that, closeness that's evident. Yeah.
• 20:40
  And I think as we know, one of the most healing aspects to the whole getting sober thing is the experience of community. Right. Um, and that's kind of like it's a lost on him, you know?
• 20:52
  'Cause to your point, like, I see a snapshot of him and then I see another snapshot of him, so to me it's a whole different person, you know?
• 20:58
  And what a, what a, what a shame that is, because he misses out on all the in between. Yeah. You know, he misses out on the significance of this person becoming, like, a human being again.
• 21:10
  Um, so yeah, I think that's kinda interesting that, that he loses that opportunity. And also, too, that both him, in the second example- Mm-hmm...
• 21:22
  he and his patient, whoever this one was, both [laughs] we doubted that even, even that would have any effect- Right... you know, in reference to this moral psychology. Mm-hmm.
• 21:31
  So I mean, doctor and patient both are like, "You're so hopeless, so complex of a problem." Mm-hmm. Probably not even gonna work. Mm-hmm.
• 21:38
  Um, but then sort of the, the heart of, I think, this whole doctor's opinion is that, yes, he became sold on the ideas in the book- Mm-hmm...
• 21:47
  the steps, which my sponsor said was the answer to every question he was gonna ask me, like I mentioned- [laughs]... a couple weeks ago. It's like, just, "It's the steps." Yeah. Just do the stuff- Mm...
• 21:57
  and see what happens. Mm-hmm. And, and in fact, I don't know if these were snapshots in that case, in that relationship- Mm... doctor, patient either, but it did in fact work. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, um-
• 22:11
  I wonder if Silkworth was a man of faith or not. Right. Well, it, it, um, it doesn't seem so. Mm. Um, because it doesn't seem that, like, he had much idea of what the future is.
• 22:28
  Like, he wasn't very future-oriented or, or hopeful for the future. Mm. Um, and I mean, s- you know, certainly this, this dude he was working with here wasn't either. He wasn't, he wasn't capable of seeing the future.
• 22:42
  That i- that idea, like, in the future, he would have the willpower to resist the impulse to drink. Like, he can't see past the moment, uh, to see any good in the future.
• 22:56
  Um, and I think you have to have a certain amount of, like, religion, spirituality, to believe that there is something in, in the future that's worth seeing. Mm-hmm. You know? Um-
• 23:13
  That's where hope springs from, you think? Right. Right. Right, yeah. I mean, you have to, you have to hope that something can change. Mm. You know? And I mean, I think, like, yeah, we're, we're,
• 23:30
  we're told in Alcoholics Anonymous to see one day at a time. Um, you know, but, but also I think it is a worthy, it's a worthy opportunity to see the future and to at least, like, have something that you're aiming for
• 23:48
  to give you the meaning and to give you the purpose that you need to move towards it, you know? If I can just see, if I can only see to the end of today, and I get it, like, I understand that. Mm.
• 24:00
  But if I can only see to the end of the day, I don't have much meaning and purpose for the future. Yeah. It's confined for this moment, for this day.
• 24:08
  And I think it's appropriate in early sobriety to latch onto that, but I think, like, as you begin to, uh, to accumulate sober days, man, everybody I work with, I always am like, "All right, like,
• 24:19
  what are we aiming for?" You know, it doesn't have to be specific, it doesn't have to be a bullseye, but it can be like the large ring. Mm-hmm. Like, what are we aiming for and what are we moving towards?
• 24:29
  What's gonna give you this meaning and what's gonna give you this purpose? To your sponsor's point, it's answered in the steps in step number 12. Mm-hmm. You know? So like- Yeah...
• 24:38
  what's my meaning and what's my purpose as it pertains to the program? Well, it's to take this story that I've given, been given, that I've been blessed with, and to missionally give it back to other people, you know?
• 24:50
  Well, I think you even, in the saying, in the telling of, you know, just for today from one person to another, there's even a piece of forward-looking hope- Mm-hmm... attached to that.
• 25:01
  Because if I, as a dude that's been around for a long time, am telling that to a newcomer, well- Right... they're, they're, A, they're latching on to the one day at a time, one moment at a time- Mm-hmm...
• 25:12
  to get through those, to get to the difficulty. Mm-hmm. But they're also looking at people like me- Yeah, right... and others, like, well, yeah, I mean, and look at him. Right. Look what could become. Right. Right.
• 25:23
  Look, look what I could become. Right. Right. You know? M- maybe not one-to-one- Mm-hmm... but just there's a piece of hope. Mm-hmm. I got it definitely- Mm-hmm... when people told me that- Yeah...
• 25:32
  in my first days and- Yeah... months- Right... and years. Right. It was like- Right... okay, I, I do wanna keep leaning forward to that. I do. Right.
• 25:40
  I don't know, to your point about the bullseye, I don't know exactly- Right... where I wanna end up, but- Right. Right... I don't wanna go backwards. [laughs] Right. Right.
• 25:47
  And I, I'm pretty sure standing still is a bad idea from everything- Right... that I'm getting told. Right. Right. And so it's like this purposeful- Mm-hmm... leaning forward. Mm-hmm.
• 25:57
  Taking it the only way we can- Right... moment at a time. Yeah. Yeah. And so maybe, maybe like, I'm just thinking of it as you're speaking, like maybe the broad bullseye is sobriety. Mm-hmm.
• 26:08
  And like the meaning and the purpose is like, yeah, I gotta make it through today, and I'll worry about tomorrow, tomorrow. Yeah.
• 26:15
  And then it's like, I make it through tomorrow, and slowly but surely I'm taking steps t- towards that, like, broader goal of sobriety. You know, and to the, to the point of sort of these stories, like,
• 26:29
  as you gain traction and as your brain begins to repair and, and as y- your affect lifts and you become brighter, you're capable of seeing that, you're seeing the rings inside the sobriety bullseye.
• 26:41
  And maybe that's like the forward progress or like the, the forward-looking part. You know, the future orientation begins to crystallize at that point.
• 26:49
  Still being mindful that like, yes, this is a daily process- Mm-hmm... and this is a daily battle, and I've gotta do the things I need to do
• 26:58
  to, like, dip my toe in sobriety on a daily basis to ensure that that bullseye continues to be attainable. And you know what the bad news is? Come on. It's not [laughs] gonna happen automatically. Right. Or by osmosis.
• 27:11
  Right. Or by, to expand what you just said, just dip my toes in. Mm-hmm. Like, to get, what does he call it? Moral psychology. Right. You know? Right. To get this crap to work- Right...
• 27:22
  I mean, maybe some people can do less. Right. I certainly haven't done it as- Mm... hard as others, but I had to work for it. Well, yeah. And I think you're right. Like,
• 27:32
  yeah, just to, to, to, to clarify that, if you're dipping your toe in, expecting to get sober, you're not gonna get sober. Mm. Right? Like, yeah, it's gotta be a dive in at the beginning. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?
• 27:48
  Like, if you wanna have any hope of getting this thing, then like, yeah, you gotta do the work, you know? But I think, you, you know, you would, as you move through the process and as you gain traction and sobriety,
• 28:03
  you can't just shuck off everything that you've learned and everything you've experienced and be like, "Oh, I got it." Mm. "I ain't gotta worry about it now 'cause I did the steps- Yeah...
• 28:11
  and I've done this and I've done that, so I'm good now." Yeah. You know?
• 28:13
  And I think that's what I mean by like you have to continually be dipping your toe into sobriety, whether that's contacting somebody, you know, that's sober, whether that's attending a meeting, whether that's reading the big book, whether that's through prayer or meditation.
• 28:28
  Grabbing all the little pieces. Yeah, dude. It's that idea of- Insulating- Yeah... ourselves with- It's that idea of spiritual fitness. Yeah. You know? And ensuring that I, I am fit to the task each day, you know? Hmm.
• 28:41
  Hmm. Hmm. Like it. Uh, "I earnestly advise every alcoholic to read this book through and though perhaps he m- he came to scoff, he may remain to pray." I also earnestly advise every alcoholic- [laughs] Mm-hmm...
• 28:59
  to read this book. Mm-hmm. Uh, I wonder, I wonder the stats on that today. Like- Mm... are people actually picking this up and reading it- Hmm... as much as... I hope so. Mm-hmm.
• 29:11
  I mean, certainly the people that I recommend, I, I think that- Sure... that they are the ones that actually are curious and wanna, wanna dive into it. Yeah. Yeah. It's like especially,
• 29:20
  it's 164 pages before you get to the personal stories. Right. I mean, that is not a lot. No. These are big- Right... print words. Right. I'd, I'd be curious on the word count. Somebody let us know the word count of that.
• 29:32
  Mm-hmm. Uh, but it's like, just freaking try it, you know? At a certain point you, you gotta get to- Right... the end of yourself. Right.
• 29:43
  And if you're not there, if the consequences aren't enough, you know, well, I think we talked about that in another, another session too. Mm-hmm. It's like well, okay, well maybe this isn't for you.
• 29:53
  Maybe there's, go, go try to maintain. Go- Mm... go try something else. But for the alcoholic- Mm-hmm... for the addict, for the person like at that point of I can't imagine drinking, using. Right.
• 30:08
  And I can't imagine life without it. Mm-hmm. Like, this really is a lifeline. Right. And it's such a simple one too. Right. Like [laughs] Right. It really is. Yeah. Yeah.
• 30:19
  I mean, we're, we're, we're gonna get into all of it, but- But look, it's evidence, man. People don't wanna read it. One, people don't like to read it anymore. Mm-mm. You know what I mean?
• 30:27
  They just want somebody to do it for them and give it to them so that I don't have to read all that stuff. Yeah. Um, but yeah, people don't wanna, people don't wanna read this. They don't want to.
• 30:37
  You know, and they've got all kinds of reasons not to. You know? And I think, like, I think you told me about the poll that was sent out, like, "Should we rewrite the book-" Rewrite the book... or something? Yeah.
• 30:46
  Again, like, that's evidence that people aren't reading it. Yeah. 'Cause it's like, what do we have to do to appeal to the masses to make ourselves relevant again? Mm-hmm. You know, and I just think that's a damn shame.
• 30:56
  Yeah. Like, there's nothing wrong with that. You know what I'm saying? The way it's presented- It works... the way it's written, it's totally effective. Yeah. And there's no reason to dumb it down.
• 31:05
  There's no reason to, like, rewrite the thing. It's perfectly fine the way it is. People just need to freaking read it. Yeah. You know? Just get, just get over yourself. [laughs] Right. It's not that hard.
• 31:17
  Like, it's words on a page, you know? Like, it's little symbols on a page that end up meaning something. Yeah. You know? Um, but I think, like, it, it, it speaks to, like... And you can remember that.
• 31:28
  Like, it speaks to the desperateness of the person's condition. Mm-hmm.
• 31:31
  You know, if you've given somebody the big book and they're like, "I don't wanna read it 'cause it's got the wrong pronouns," then, like, that tells you everything you need to know about where they are in their journey to sobriety.
• 31:40
  Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Cancel me. Hashtag cancel, whatever. I don't care. [laughs] But, like, to me, it speaks volumes of where they are and how serious they are in pursuing getting better. Yeah.
• 31:48
  Because they're trying to, like, allow something that's frivolous, uh, to interfere with their ability to heal, and that just doesn't make sense to me. Give me an excuse. Right. That doesn't make sense.
• 31:57
  To not have to change. Well, they're bigots. What? To do something easier. Right. Like, what are you talking about? [clears throat] Like, these guys aren't bigots, they're freaking trying to help you.
• 32:05
  [laughs] You know what I'm saying? Like, no, give me a break. Give me a break. You know, like you said, it's 164 pages. It's life-changing. It's 164 pages of life-changing symbols that are, are...
• 32:19
  They're nothing but good, and they're not bad. And- Did you... Some of them are actually well-written too. Like, I've- Totally... since we talked, that was about a month ago. Mm-hmm.
• 32:30
  I think I've changed my stance a little bit on it. Mm. 'Cause in the, initially, I was like, "Oh, yeah. Couldn't hurt anything." Mm-hmm.
• 32:36
  And then I think the very next week, I brought it up to a couple buddies in recovery, and we were, we had a meeting, and we read something out of the big book. Mm-hmm.
• 32:45
  And one of the remarks was like, "Man, that would just kill me if they changed that." Mm. 'Cause it's so, well, whatever passage we read- Right... was just, like, so impactful. Mm-hmm. Uh, and, and good- Right...
• 32:57
  and true and right. Right. Uh, did you ever scoff at it? Scoff at the book? Uh-huh. At the steps? Uh, yeah, this whole- Yeah, man... this whole book, this whole recovery thing.
• 33:08
  "Though he may, though he came to scoff or whatever, he may remain to pray." Yeah. Uh-huh. Yeah. "Though perhaps he came to scoff, he-" You know, my- "... he may remain to pray." My first trip into AA- Mm-hmm...
• 33:18
  like, my first introduction to AA was here at Cornerstone before I went down to Copacistan. And, you know, I did the 30-day, you know, 28-day treatment thing, went to my first meeting.
• 33:30
  I thought AA was an insurance company before that. Mm-hmm. Like, I had no idea- Yeah... what any of this stuff was. Yeah. I got this, I mean, I got this literally, you can tell, this very book. Mm-hmm. And,
• 33:43
  uh, I wonder how much I read. I didn't read all of it. Yeah. You know, I scanned through it. Mm-hmm. I looked at the steps, and my thoughts were, "I grew up as a Presbyterian. I know the Bible reasonably well." Mm-hmm.
• 33:56
  "I recognize the principles here." I mean, they're, they're not shy about it. I mean, they took many things from places in the Bible. Mm-hmm. This seems stupid. [laughs] Mm-hmm.
• 34:07
  And furthermore, let me just read these steps and check, check, check, check. Yeah. I'm, I'm good. Yeah. You know? And, and so my scoffing was one of, uh, completely minimizing- Mm...
• 34:19
  the amount of absolute shit that I had gotten into- Mm-hmm... still- Mm-hmm... despite the fact of where I had at that point wound up- Yeah... and thinking that I could think my way out of, out of trouble. Mm-hmm.
• 34:31
  And I wasn't like you, and I wasn't like, God forbid, I was like any of these people in these AA meetings. Right. Interesting stories, nice people, but, you know, get me out of here. [laughs] Right. Right. Right.
• 34:45
  These people are morons. Yeah. How would you let your life deteriorate to that? Right. You know, I'm a kid, and thanks for the info. Mm-hmm. I [laughs] no way I'm gonna go back and do anything- Yeah... like that now.
• 34:59
  Yeah. And how long did it take me? Yeah. Right. 60 days. Right. Right back. Yeah. Same, same pattern. Yeah. Glad it worked for you. Yeah. Way to go. Glad that worked for you, but I, I'm, I'm fine. I'm okay.
• 35:13
  You know, I'll be fine. I got it. I, there you go, step one, yeah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right on. I d- I worked the steps. Yeah. I've worked, I've worked them before. Yeah. I worked them at church.
• 35:23
  You know, like, whatever the, whatever the reasoning is there, you know? Um, I certainly scoffed. I mean, I thought if, I, I mean, just, I scoffed until I didn't. Mm-hmm.
• 35:35
  You know, I scoffed until, like, there I was on death's door, then, like, none of it was funny anymore. Mm-hmm. Did I still have doubts and hesitancies and my own biases? For sure. Um, but I didn't scoff anymore.
• 35:48
  But yeah, certainly leading up to that point, it was like, "Rehab's for freaking quitters. You guys are pussies." Like, "This is never gonna work." Yeah. Like, "You guys are morons," you know? Like, "Drugs are awesome.
• 35:59
  What's your problem?" Yeah. Like, "There's nothing wrong here. Everything's fine." You know? Like, "You guys are idiots. If that's what you guys need," then, like, "you guys are losers." You know?
• 36:09
  Um, but then when it got serious, it got serious. Uh, and, and I didn't scoff. I think I probably minimized. Mm-hmm. I don't know that I scoffed. Mm-hmm. You know?
• 36:20
  I think I probably miner- minimized a lot of it as, like, "There's no way that works," kind of thing. Yeah. Um- Yeah. My, my attitude drastically changed when I went down to COPEC. Mm-hmm.
• 36:33
  You know, and, and- I- You know, I, and I approached my parents at that time for help. Right. It's like, okay. Yeah. Right. And it didn't take long either. Right. You know, it was- Right...
• 36:41
  30, 60 days out of treatment here- Right... that I started screwing up again. Yeah. And then not that w- you know, I'm a baby. Yeah. I was a baby then, [laughs] and I still am.
• 36:50
  You know, pain, me and pain just don't work out well together- Yeah, I've seen you on the trail... for very long. [laughs] I don't say anything. I love you, man. You're fine. But when it got to that point- Mm-hmm...
• 37:01
  where it got real, it was like- Mm-hmm... okay. Right. And, you know, sure, for into recovery I still had my turning my nose up at stuff here and there. Yeah.
• 37:10
  But I never really backed down from the fact that, yeah, this is, this is serious. Yeah. I do need help. Yes. And I can't solve- Correct... whatever's wrong with me. Yeah. Call it what you want. Yeah.
• 37:22
  Call the solution what you want. Right. I need something different. Yeah. I need some help. Yeah. I can remember that. I can remember that. And that's such, that, I mean, that's such an important- Yeah... point. Yeah.
• 37:32
  Yeah. Um, so can people, can people recover without AA? Sure. Can they recover without treatment? Sure. I mean, they, we don't, we don't have a monopoly on any of this. Mm-hmm. I think some people cannot- Mm-hmm...
• 37:50
  recover without one or both of those things. Mm-hmm. I don't know if I could have with, at that time in my life and my circumstance. I mean, those were both Godsend for me.
• 38:01
  And sometimes I look at, you know, I, I've been going to AA for 20, what, 21 years. Mm-hmm. And I look at that, I'm like, "Gee whiz." Mm-hmm. How many, how many hours have I s- days have I spent in meetings and- Mm-hmm.
• 38:15
  Right... um, and I, you know, you can certainly look at that in a negative- Yeah... sunk cost way, or you can look at the relationships formed, the lives saved, you know, the positive type of- Mm-hmm... type of thing.
• 38:27
  Yeah. Um, but yeah, I mean, p- I, I remember, I remember really turning my nose up at people who would say, "Well, I'm not doing AA anymore. I found," you know, the ones that would go back to Pine Lake and- Yeah...
• 38:40
  you know, found Jesus again. Right. And just 100% all in AA is kinda bad, you know? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And- Why would you turn your nose up at them? Uh, because I was at that point much more along the lines of,
• 38:56
  "Wait a second. You got sober here, and now you're just gonna leave- Hmm... future people that need insight and need help- Hmm... uh, you know, to me [laughs] and the people that aren't leaving AA." Hmm.
• 39:10
  Um, so I, you know, whatever. They're, I hope that they are fine. Mm-hmm. And I, I believe that they probably were. Yeah. You know, that, that, that avenue is certainly- True...
• 39:22
  more attractive, more open, more whatever for some people. Mm-hmm. And, and it's not necessary to stay in AA or to, to only use this- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... or solely use this. Right. Right.
• 39:36
  To me, though, it's like both and, not either or. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, so when I was working, um, when I was d- the director of the IOP program, I can remember we were having group one night, and, um,
• 39:54
  this guy came in, and he was like, he told this story. He was like, "Man," you know, he'd been drinking for whatever, 17 years. He said, "I was listening to K-Love tonight- Mm-hmm... uh, before I got here."
• 40:10
  And you know, they have these little testimonials sometimes between songs, and he said the testimonial, somebody called in, and they said, "You know, I'd been drinking,"
• 40:20
  I don't know, pick a number, "like 12 years and just couldn't stop. And I tried this, and I tried that, and I tried AA, and I tried rehab. Uh,
• 40:31
  and I, I finally got on my knees, and I prayed to God that he would take away this desire for me to drink. And that night was whatever the day was, and I haven't had a drink since."
• 40:46
  And this guy looked at me, and he said, "That's the most discouraging thing I've ever heard.
• 40:50
  Because I've been praying every day for 10 years that the Lord would take this burden off of my shoulders, and he hasn't done it." And I think to your point, like, sometimes that solution,
• 41:04
  although hopefully is, it, it's genuine- Yeah... sometimes that solution can be so heartbreaking- Yeah... for the rest of us. Yeah. Um, to me, the beauty,
• 41:19
  really the beauty of my whole entire experience of, like, rehab and step work was how it brought me into, like, proper relationship with the Lord- Yeah... and allowed the Lord to heal me.
• 41:33
  It wasn't this just, like, [snap] instantaneous, like, sort of thing that was gone. And in fact, like, I'll, I'll tell this to people all the time, the only
• 41:43
  conversion story there is in the Bible where it happens, there's only one, and that was Paul. You know, everybody else, like all, even the Thomas was still like, "Dude, I don't believe you."
• 41:55
  There's Jesus in front of him. He's like, "Bet, son. I rose from the dead." Mm-hmm. And, and Thomas is like, "Nah, dog." [laughs] You know? Like, "I don't believe it.
• 42:02
  Let me put my finger through your, through your hand." Yeah. And he's like, "Bet." You know? Only then did he believe. So, like, can that happen? To your point, can that happen? Sure, it can. Um,
• 42:15
  but the damage of having that be presented as the option I think can be so discouraging- Mm-hmm... for so many people, you know?
• 42:27
  I mean, I'm not ashamed to say, like, I found the Lord through Alcoholics Anonymous. Mm-hmm. You know, it was a beautiful process. I mean, I've grown since for sure, but like I found Him in that.
• 42:40
  I found like the forgiveness in that. I found the repentance in that. I found the community in that. I found the mission, step 12, I found the mission and the reason and the purpose and the meaning for my life in that.
• 42:52
  Like literally, that's what I do for a living now. Yeah. You know, like- Yeah... man, that's how I found the Lord, was through the, just the trial of, of, of working through all of that stuff.
• 43:02
  God bless the guy that- look, if you're out there and that thing's happened to you, like God bless you, man. For sure. And I, I, I think that's, praise the Lord for miracles, you know?
• 43:12
  'Cause like they're all around us, and, and I think that's an awesome story. But like, don't let that story interfere with the other guy's story that the Lord has for him. [laughs] I guess that'd be my thing. Yeah.
• 43:27
  No, and I 100% agree. And you know, have you read recently the spiritual appendix in the back? Mm-hmm. Appendix two, it's, it's on spiritual experience. It's great. Mm.
• 43:37
  It's on like page 500 and whatever, but it's two pages basically saying, "Hey, we kinda led some people to believe that you have to have a bright light experience- Mm... to, to encounter God and to get a God con- and no.
• 43:53
  Right. Like most of our members- Right... have one of the educational variety- Right. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... where it is like suiting up, showing up one day at a time- Mm-hmm... with hope for the future- Mm...
• 44:03
  like concertedly putting in the very practical work of AA. Yeah. The step work of AA. Yeah. Which my story's very similar. Mm-hmm. Like I refound my relationship with Christ through AA. Right.
• 44:17
  And kind of, kind of purposefully walking away from Him for a minute- Right... in my early A- AA days. I, I don't know how you rate all that, but, but just doing AA. Yeah. Um, and found my way back to, oh- Mm...
• 44:32
  this is the stuff I was raised with. Mm-hmm. Like here's the spiritual principles- Yeah... really practically being lived out, and it gave me a model to live one day at a time by, which I grew up with- Right...
• 44:45
  but, but I just didn't connect those dots- Right... you know, at that time. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I began drinking r- right about the time, you know, in high school when- Mm...
• 44:55
  my brain was, you know, starting to put things together. I was really coming into opinions and stuff. Mm-hmm. And, uh, and yeah, definitely found Him- Yeah... through AA. Yeah. Refound- Right... if you will. Right.
• 45:07
  Mm-hmm. I ha- I have a friend that says he was born again, again. Hmm. That's good. You know, I've always liked that- Yeah... that imagery. Yeah. That's neat. [upbeat music] All right, dude.
• 45:16
  Next time we'll dive in, I guess. That's it. Chapter one. [upbeat music]