Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / A Fake Social Worker Stole Their 17-Day-Old Baby. He’s Still Missing

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A Fake Social Worker Stole Their 17-Day-Old Baby. He’s Still Missing · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:08
Speaker 1: Y'all.
0:08
Speaker 2: My guest tonight is a multi Emmy Award winning journalist.
0:13
Speaker 2: Not just a journalist, but an investigative reporter. She is
0:18
Speaker 2: the director of Communications for the National Center for Missing
0:22
Speaker 2: and Exploited Children. She works directly with families and law
0:27
Speaker 2: enforcement to keep these cases in the public eye. She
0:31
Speaker 2: does it better than anybody I've ever seen. She's an advocate.
0:35
Speaker 2: She is a solid podcaster. Now I want y'all listen
0:39
Speaker 2: to me.
0:39
Speaker 3: Now.
0:41
Speaker 2: She doesn't have just a podcast. She's an investigative journalist.
0:45
Speaker 2: And she hit a milestone that very few podcasts are
0:49
Speaker 2: ever going to hit. She helped solve a nineteen ninety
0:53
Speaker 2: nine John doecase of William Deshaun Hamilton, who was just
0:58
Speaker 2: six years old. I am talking about the one and only,
1:03
Speaker 2: the beautiful and solid human being, Angeline Hartman. So if
1:09
Speaker 2: you love this podcast with her and you just can't
1:12
Speaker 2: get enough of her, head right on over to Inside
1:15
Speaker 2: Crime with Angeline Hartman. And you know, here's the other
1:19
Speaker 2: thing I want people to know this before we even
1:20
Speaker 2: get started. I am going to refer to her as
1:23
Speaker 2: Angeline Hartman during this podcast. And here's the reason why
1:28
Speaker 2: most of y'all know I'm the youngest of five girls, Cheveron, Sheila, Charlene, Shelley,
1:32
Speaker 2: and Cheryl, and oftentimes people will get us confused and
1:36
Speaker 2: maybe call us by the wrong name, which is understandable.
1:39
Speaker 2: But tonight we have another special guest, Angelica, and I
1:43
Speaker 2: just don't want to switch back and forth too quick
1:46
Speaker 2: and people get confused who I'm talking to. So I
1:49
Speaker 2: just want people to know when I say Angeline Hartman
1:52
Speaker 2: we are friends. I would normally just say Angeline, but tonight,
1:57
Speaker 2: because of Angelica, I want people to know for sure
2:00
Speaker 2: ho's fixing away in Angeline, how are you, honey?
2:04
Speaker 4: Oh my goodness, you're going to make me cry at
2:07
Speaker 4: you mentioned William DeShawn Hamilton and my eyes are well
2:12
Speaker 4: and up right here like right now. I did not
2:15
Speaker 4: know you were going to say that, girlfriend.
2:17
Speaker 2: But it's just incredible work, and I want people to know. Angeline.
2:22
Speaker 2: Give us a little bit of background on this case.
2:24
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, So this happened in nineteen ninety nine, so
2:31
Speaker 4: a long time ago, right, A lot of people don't
2:33
Speaker 4: even won't even know. But in February nineteen ninety nine,
2:40
Speaker 4: there was a body found actually not a body share
2:44
Speaker 4: it was skeletal remains found near a cemetery off Clifton
2:50
Speaker 4: Springs Road into Cab County, Georgia.
2:53
Speaker 1: And so.
2:55
Speaker 4: Police pretty quickly realized that this was a child.
3:02
Speaker 5: They didn't know how old, they didn't know who it was.
3:06
Speaker 5: They just knew that it was you know, they could
3:08
Speaker 5: tell from being out there, and so what the heck?
3:12
Speaker 5: This is an unidentified child just found in the woods.
3:18
Speaker 4: So what happened? Who's who is this kid? And the
3:21
Speaker 4: mystery begins. The crazy thing is is I was out
3:25
Speaker 4: there that day as a reporter when I worked as
3:29
Speaker 4: a reporter at Channel five in Atlanta. Isn't that crazy? Yeah?
3:35
Speaker 4: So you know when you as you know, when you
3:42
Speaker 4: have a case involving a child, all these cases hit
3:46
Speaker 4: you right, but when you were talking about a child,
3:50
Speaker 4: it hits you differently. And we just knew that somebody
3:53
Speaker 4: was going to come forward, they were missing a child
3:56
Speaker 4: or they you know, there was somebody who was going
3:57
Speaker 4: to come forward, and nobody came forward for you know,
4:01
Speaker 4: one month became a year and it became all long time.
4:06
Speaker 4: And so after I left Channel five, I mean while
4:10
Speaker 4: I was there, I just kept doing the story and
4:11
Speaker 4: became very close with the investigators because everybody, like I said,
4:16
Speaker 4: thought that they were going to figure out who this
4:19
Speaker 4: child was and what happened. And if you remember, one
4:25
Speaker 4: of the most uh, this case kind of became known
4:29
Speaker 4: as like the case with the kid with the Timberland
4:33
Speaker 4: boots because in all the press conferences and things like that,
4:36
Speaker 4: they had talked about how the child was wearing Timberland
4:41
Speaker 4: boots and that just kind of stayed with people.
4:45
Speaker 2: I remember that.
4:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we even they even brought in this artist
4:51
Speaker 4: who you know, uh, put together the likeness of what
4:55
Speaker 4: this child might look like, not just you know, a sketch,
4:59
Speaker 4: but they created a model, like a life size model
5:04
Speaker 4: of what this child looked like would look like. But anyway,
5:07
Speaker 4: so fast forward. Then I'm at America's Most Wanted and
5:12
Speaker 4: we do the case again. It's still nobody has come forward.
5:15
Speaker 4: We still don't know who did it is fast forward.
5:19
Speaker 4: Now it's time for podcasts. So I have my own
5:21
Speaker 4: podcasts inside Crime, and I realize we're approaching the twenty
5:25
Speaker 4: year anniversary of when this child was found, and by
5:28
Speaker 4: this time, I'm at America. I'm sorry, I'm By this time,
5:31
Speaker 4: I'm at the National Center for Missing and exploited children,
5:35
Speaker 4: and I realize they have the case. And so this
5:38
Speaker 4: case just keeps following me, right, and so of course
5:42
Speaker 4: I do this story with my podcast, and you know,
5:45
Speaker 4: just twenty years later it reaches so many different people
5:50
Speaker 4: with social media and all kinds of different things, and
5:55
Speaker 4: finally someone comes forward and seen the podcast. She'd seen
6:03
Speaker 4: the likeness the reconstruction that the National Center had done.
6:08
Speaker 4: And it was a woman who had been looking for
6:12
Speaker 4: her neighbor's child for more than twenty years. Basically, a
6:18
Speaker 4: woman in Charlotte, North Carolina, had said goodbye to her neighbor,
6:22
Speaker 4: her very close friend, and that neighbor had a daughter
6:25
Speaker 4: or sorry, that neighbor had a son, and they left.
6:30
Speaker 4: They moved to Atlanta. And when the woman came back,
6:34
Speaker 4: the mother came back, she didn't have her son with her.
6:37
Speaker 4: And so this woman ava the neighbor, said like, what
6:42
Speaker 4: happened to your son? Where's And she had all these
6:44
Speaker 4: questions and he just stayed. It hit her the wrong way.
6:48
Speaker 4: So she had been asking questions for twenty something years.
6:53
Speaker 4: And when I tell you Mac that this was a
6:55
Speaker 4: woman who didn't give up, I can't even expel lane
7:00
Speaker 4: it properly she said she would stay up. And this
7:04
Speaker 4: is be Remember this is like before the internet. So
7:06
Speaker 4: she's looking through phone books, she's making phone calls. She's
7:10
Speaker 4: doing it old school detective like from her bedroom, trying
7:15
Speaker 4: to call hospitals, trying to call police departments, trying to
7:19
Speaker 4: figure out what happened to this kid because she did
7:21
Speaker 4: not believe the woman when she came back without her son.
7:26
Speaker 4: And fast forward to the twenty year mark in twenty
7:30
Speaker 4: twenty two, actually it's more than twenty years. Fast forward
7:34
Speaker 4: to July twenty twenty two, and they, with her help,
7:39
Speaker 4: they identified him. It turned out to be the kid
7:42
Speaker 4: that she was thinking about, six year old William DeShawn Hamilton,
7:48
Speaker 4: and it was a match. The kid that was found
7:54
Speaker 4: in the cemetery in nineteen ninety nine was William DeShawn Hamilton,
7:59
Speaker 4: her neighbor's on.
8:01
Speaker 6: But you know what's blowing my mind is, yeah, the
8:05
Speaker 6: case followed you, but you stayed with it. I mean,
8:09
Speaker 6: this was one of those times where you just cannot
8:13
Speaker 6: deny this was your case.
8:16
Speaker 4: Well, I think anybody everybody felt the same way about
8:21
Speaker 4: this case. Mac everybody did you know? And when you
8:25
Speaker 4: looked at the reconstruction of what this kid like you're
8:29
Speaker 4: looking at a face of a child, and it just
8:32
Speaker 4: really really hit everybody differently. And over the years, you know, you,
8:39
Speaker 4: I mean, I was very good friends with the investigators
8:42
Speaker 4: the Cab County Medical Examiner's Office. They all just said,
8:47
Speaker 4: you know, there was that one case, right, this was
8:50
Speaker 4: always that one case for them, Like before I retire,
8:52
Speaker 4: I want to find out who's the identity of that kid.
8:56
Speaker 4: They all said that, and one by one they kept
8:59
Speaker 4: retiring and the case was still unsolved, and so it
9:02
Speaker 4: was just crazy. And finally, when you know the I
9:08
Speaker 4: give kudos to so many of those investigators at the
9:11
Speaker 4: Cap County Police and you know, the District Attorney's office,
9:14
Speaker 4: they went for murder charges against the mother and it
9:17
Speaker 4: turns out they you know, they charged the mother with murder,
9:23
Speaker 4: child cruelty, aggravated assault, and it was very sad all
9:29
Speaker 4: the way around. Really, it is a good example of
9:34
Speaker 4: what can happen when people don't give up and when
9:37
Speaker 4: people work together, right, and that's what we want to
9:41
Speaker 4: do with this case we're going to talk about today,
9:44
Speaker 4: because it can happen, it can be solved, and we
9:48
Speaker 4: can find Kevin Verville Junior.
9:50
Speaker 2: You brought a case to me and we were at
9:53
Speaker 2: crime con a couple of years ago, and you said,
9:57
Speaker 2: I've got this case. There was a baby stolen. He
10:00
Speaker 2: was seventeen days old. His name was Kevin Verval Junior.
10:05
Speaker 2: And Honey, you had me right there and.
10:07
Speaker 4: You said yes, like that was it. You said yes, yes, yes,
10:11
Speaker 4: capital y ees. And that's what I love about you
10:16
Speaker 4: so much, like you were right on board, like whatever
10:19
Speaker 4: I have to do, this is it. So I appreciate
10:24
Speaker 4: you so much, and I'm excited about what we're going
10:28
Speaker 4: to talk about today.
10:29
Speaker 2: I am too because July the first, Today's July the first.
10:33
Speaker 2: Even though this podcast won't come out today, it was
10:37
Speaker 2: important for us to talk today because this is the
10:39
Speaker 2: anniversary of when Kevin Junior was stolen, and it was
10:43
Speaker 2: July first, nineteen eighty. Now, Angeline Hartman, this case has
10:48
Speaker 2: got a lot of layers to it. It's got a
10:51
Speaker 2: few days that are kind of strung together before the
10:53
Speaker 2: actual abduction. Who do you think best could tell this story?
10:58
Speaker 2: Should it be you?
11:00
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a combination. So how about I
11:03
Speaker 4: bring in our guests and we can kind of tag
11:05
Speaker 4: team it. I can set it up, but let me
11:09
Speaker 4: introduce them so that everybody's together all at once.
11:12
Speaker 2: How about that sounds great.
11:15
Speaker 4: We're talking about the case of Kevin Verville Junior. As
11:18
Speaker 4: you said, he was seventeen days old when he was stolen,
11:22
Speaker 4: and I use that word stolen from his family, his
11:26
Speaker 4: mom and his dad.
11:29
Speaker 2: His dad.
11:30
Speaker 4: Kevin Verville Senior is here with us today and a
11:36
Speaker 4: few years later they had a daughter and her name
11:42
Speaker 4: is Angelica. So Angelica Ramsey is also here with us.
11:47
Speaker 2: Wonderful Kevin sor Angelica. Thank you so much for being here.
11:52
Speaker 3: Thank you for having us.
11:53
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you.
11:55
Speaker 2: So Kevin, you and your wife have a brand new baby,
11:58
Speaker 2: seventeen days old. You're in the service. You're living off
12:03
Speaker 2: base from Camp Pendleton, and I mean it's a struggle.
12:07
Speaker 2: You don't make a ton of money being in the service.
12:10
Speaker 2: And this woman knocks on your door and is saying, hey,
12:13
Speaker 2: I can help with diapers, in formula and maybe even
12:16
Speaker 2: get you a little money to pay some bills. I mean,
12:18
Speaker 2: it seems like a godsend.
12:20
Speaker 1: Back then in the military, we didn't make much money
12:23
Speaker 1: and we were living in base housing, goes off based
12:26
Speaker 1: base housing, sturdy homes. This lady come around and supposing
12:32
Speaker 1: as a social worker, and the way I was brought up,
12:35
Speaker 1: you kind of turn that stuff away. But I had
12:39
Speaker 1: other family members that had been in their service, so
12:42
Speaker 1: we'd called and talked to them, and they said, you know,
12:45
Speaker 1: military people at that time, we made sole little money.
12:48
Speaker 1: They said that we deserved it and that we should
12:51
Speaker 1: go ahead and go for it. So we talked it
12:53
Speaker 1: over and we decided when she if she come back around,
12:57
Speaker 1: that we would we would take the program.
13:00
Speaker 2: And how long was it before she came back around.
13:02
Speaker 1: Oh, it's been forty six years. I think two or
13:05
Speaker 1: three days, two or three.
13:07
Speaker 2: Days, and she presented a program called Project Help. And
13:15
Speaker 2: again all you really knew was her name was Sheila,
13:18
Speaker 2: And you've only seen her one time.
13:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's correct, we've only seen her the one time
13:23
Speaker 1: before the actual kidnapping.
13:24
Speaker 2: Yes, Now, Angeline Hartman, how many child abductions that you've
13:31
Speaker 2: ever worked or this detailed where somebody comes almost befriend you,
13:37
Speaker 2: offers you help, leaves, then comes back under the same
13:42
Speaker 2: guys of I'm gonna help you.
13:44
Speaker 4: Well, it is, as you know, it is very common
13:48
Speaker 4: for someone to pose as a social worker, right, or
13:51
Speaker 4: a nurse or something like that. But in this case,
13:55
Speaker 4: she came back, not once, not t why she was
13:58
Speaker 4: there like two or three days in this military housing complex.
14:04
Speaker 4: So that tells me that she was looking for something
14:08
Speaker 4: very specific. In this case, she was there for several
14:14
Speaker 4: days knocking on doors. It's not why she went introduced
14:18
Speaker 4: herself to a family and then took that family's baby.
14:21
Speaker 4: She knocked on several doors, talked to these people, took
14:26
Speaker 4: her time, and that's how ultimately investigators were able to
14:32
Speaker 4: get a composite sketch. I guess I'm jumping ahead, but
14:37
Speaker 4: investigators know that she was in that area for several days,
14:41
Speaker 4: and that's unusual.
14:42
Speaker 2: But again, her story, she's got a name, she has
14:46
Speaker 2: a vehicle, she's got a clipboard, she's going to more
14:49
Speaker 2: than one apartment. So visually everything looks legit. It looks
14:54
Speaker 2: up and up.
14:55
Speaker 4: It looks legit, and she's not worried about somebody recognizing
15:00
Speaker 4: her and maybe identifying her later. So that's another clue
15:06
Speaker 4: that possibly she was wearing a disguise. She had these
15:10
Speaker 4: big glasses on, she had this curly hair. You know,
15:15
Speaker 4: they know she drove away in a great car with
15:18
Speaker 4: four doors. But yeah, she did look legit. She had
15:22
Speaker 4: a clipboard, she had a badge, she had a card
15:25
Speaker 4: that she gave to family members. And she was not shy.
15:30
Speaker 4: They said she was friendly.
15:32
Speaker 2: And you know, Kevin, when she is not so aggressive,
15:36
Speaker 2: she's not pushy. She waits several days before she comes back.
15:41
Speaker 2: Other people have seen her around. Nothing about her seems
15:46
Speaker 2: like she's eager to necessarily do anything. She's pretty relaxed
15:51
Speaker 2: about it.
15:52
Speaker 1: She was very relaxed. In my mind, there was no
15:56
Speaker 1: doubt she said she was who she said she was sure.
16:01
Speaker 1: You know, it was like going in she would like
16:03
Speaker 1: talking to a nurse or a doctor or a sales
16:08
Speaker 1: professional salesperson in the store. She was so relaxed and
16:11
Speaker 1: comfortable what she was doing.
16:14
Speaker 2: And see, that's the thing. If she had been real pushy,
16:17
Speaker 2: like let's do it today, let's go right now, that
16:19
Speaker 2: would be different. But she was like, hey, if you
16:21
Speaker 2: want it, let me know. I'll come back in a
16:23
Speaker 2: few days if it works out. It works out, I mean,
16:27
Speaker 2: that wouldn't be a red flag, I think to a
16:30
Speaker 2: lot of people. So let me ask you this. When
16:33
Speaker 2: she says I'm going to come back, and she does.
16:38
Speaker 2: She has her own car, so she didn't even expect
16:41
Speaker 2: anybody to meet her somewhere. But then she tells your wife, Kevin,
16:46
Speaker 2: that we're going to stop and pick up another mom.
16:48
Speaker 1: Yes, it's my understanding is after they left in a car,
16:53
Speaker 1: she appeared to be pregnant, and she told Junior's mom that,
17:00
Speaker 1: not feeling well, we got to pick up somebody else.
17:02
Speaker 1: You know, it is when you're pregnant, Can you knock
17:04
Speaker 1: on a door for me instead? When when they pulled in,
17:10
Speaker 1: I don't have no cluere it was, uh she Angelina
17:15
Speaker 1: started getting out of the car. Angelina is Junior's mom name.
17:21
Speaker 1: When she started getting a car, she was going to
17:23
Speaker 1: take the junior with her in her arm. She's, oh,
17:27
Speaker 1: if you're just go on the door, I'll watch them.
17:29
Speaker 1: And she patted the baby and and uh so it
17:33
Speaker 1: just it didn't seem like there was anything wrong for anybody.
17:37
Speaker 1: I would say, I don't think anybody would have figured
17:39
Speaker 1: out anything.
17:41
Speaker 2: So Angelina gets out of the car and the woman
17:45
Speaker 2: speeds off with your baby. That is correct, now, Angeline Hartman.
17:49
Speaker 2: At this point, I mean she's in a panic. She's
17:52
Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere. There's no cell phones, of course.
17:54
Speaker 4: Yet rural San Diego County here, and just to back
17:59
Speaker 4: up up, Angelina had only been in the United States
18:04
Speaker 4: for less than a year at this point. Back up, So,
18:07
Speaker 4: Angelina and Kevin Verville met overseas. They met in the
18:11
Speaker 4: Philippines and they got married, and then he got transferred
18:17
Speaker 4: over to San Diego. They're at Camp Pendleton and that's
18:21
Speaker 4: where they are. They have the baby, right, and so
18:23
Speaker 4: here she is. They're both in their early twenties. She
18:27
Speaker 4: has no family here. English is not her first language.
18:30
Speaker 4: She's thought she could trust this woman, and all of
18:33
Speaker 4: a sudden, the woman drives off with her baby. She's
18:37
Speaker 4: standing there freaking out, thinking, what the heck, what do
18:41
Speaker 4: I do? Where do I go? She's probably never even
18:44
Speaker 4: been to that part of town before.
18:50
Speaker 2: And it also sounds like to me, this woman picked
18:53
Speaker 2: a vehicle that's kind of nondescript. Nobody's going to really
18:56
Speaker 2: look at it twice. It's either a gray or silver
19:00
Speaker 2: four door Sedan. That's all we know. She is a
19:03
Speaker 2: white female with you know, red curly hair and big glasses,
19:07
Speaker 2: so that again is probably quite possibly a disguise. But
19:12
Speaker 2: there's nothing about her. There's not a scar, there's not
19:15
Speaker 2: a tattoo, there's not a limp. There's nothing that you
19:18
Speaker 2: can really say definitively about her.
19:22
Speaker 4: Well, there is a tattoo open. Here's what okay, yes,
19:27
Speaker 4: and this is what I want to ask you your
19:30
Speaker 4: listeners about. So the tattoo is on the left hand,
19:35
Speaker 4: in that little webbing web area between the thumb and
19:38
Speaker 4: the forefinger, and it's described as a circle with a
19:44
Speaker 4: cross or an x there depending I guess how you
19:48
Speaker 4: look at it, and it was either you know, blue
19:50
Speaker 4: or black. But I always thought maybe that's the clue
19:55
Speaker 4: to lead us to this woman. What does that tattoo mean?
19:59
Speaker 4: Who got the type of tattoo in, you know, in
20:03
Speaker 4: nineteen eighty Where would they get that tattoo?
20:07
Speaker 2: What does it mean?
20:09
Speaker 4: Does anybody know that? Where can they? Do you have
20:11
Speaker 4: tattoo people who could tattoo artists who would know?
20:15
Speaker 2: We do? We do? Actually? So yes, I think let's
20:19
Speaker 2: ask a whole bunch of people. So from what was
20:22
Speaker 2: described to you, does it look like that blue like
20:26
Speaker 2: some of the folks that are in the service, and
20:28
Speaker 2: it's an older tattoo, that kind of blue looking where
20:31
Speaker 2: it's kind of bled wide a little bit, or do
20:35
Speaker 2: they know or was it then? Like could could they
20:38
Speaker 2: be a little more descriptive.
20:40
Speaker 4: Dad, I guess you're the best person on this call
20:43
Speaker 4: to answer that. I know it's been forty six years.
20:45
Speaker 4: That's the problem in my mind.
20:47
Speaker 1: I just remembered is a small tattoo. It was a circle,
20:53
Speaker 1: looked like if you took it was almost the sickness
20:57
Speaker 1: of what would have been if you took a ballpoint
20:58
Speaker 1: pin and just drew it on there. But it was
21:01
Speaker 1: just NOI it was a ballpoint painted.
21:03
Speaker 3: It was.
21:04
Speaker 1: It had to be a tattoo, you know, And I
21:07
Speaker 1: suppose it don't even mimic that could have been if
21:09
Speaker 1: it was uh, you know, you see some of them
21:11
Speaker 1: tattoos that are put on my paper and wet or
21:16
Speaker 1: to stick on. But it was. And as far as
21:19
Speaker 1: the color, I don't recall the color, but to me,
21:23
Speaker 1: it was a circle of probably the size of a
21:27
Speaker 1: penny or Nicol's the cross in it.
21:30
Speaker 2: Okay, but if she put her thumb next to her hand,
21:34
Speaker 2: it would disappear. I would say, no, oh, it was
21:37
Speaker 2: a little bit bigger. Okay. All right, Well that's something
21:40
Speaker 2: to start with, y'all. So this case belongs to everybody, say,
21:44
Speaker 2: y'all get to it now. Angelica, I want to talk
21:46
Speaker 2: to you for a second. I am crazy about Callahan
21:50
Speaker 2: Walsh and I so admire what he has done to
21:55
Speaker 2: fight to keep his brother's case out and people talking
21:58
Speaker 2: about it so people can prevent child abduction. And he's
22:02
Speaker 2: fighting for a brother he's never met. And Honey, that's
22:06
Speaker 2: what you're doing. You're fighting for a brother you never
22:09
Speaker 2: had the opportunity to meet. And first of all, I
22:12
Speaker 2: just want to tell you how impressed I am by that,
22:15
Speaker 2: because you know, you could be doing a whole lot
22:18
Speaker 2: of things tonight, but trying to help you know, Kevin Junior.
22:22
Speaker 2: I mean, it just kind of it just gets to
22:24
Speaker 2: me and I just wanted you to know that first
22:26
Speaker 2: for me to you. So the other thing I want
22:29
Speaker 2: to know from you is what is your goal? What
22:32
Speaker 2: do you want people to know? What do you want
22:35
Speaker 2: people to do? How can we help you in this
22:38
Speaker 2: fight you're in.
22:40
Speaker 3: I would love people to continuously share his each progression,
22:45
Speaker 3: to share his story. There's so many different platforms that
22:49
Speaker 3: they can do with on I just want him found
22:53
Speaker 3: before my parents move on, and I don't want them
22:58
Speaker 3: to not see their son before they away.
23:01
Speaker 2: And you have a brother out there and he possibly
23:04
Speaker 2: has no idea he was abducted and stolen.
23:07
Speaker 3: I'm sure he doesn't now, so putting.
23:10
Speaker 2: Your DNA in ancestry is a big deal. Looking at
23:13
Speaker 2: the age progression, do y'all recognize this person? Does he
23:17
Speaker 2: live next door to you? Does he work with you?
23:20
Speaker 2: Is it a guy that comes in the coffee shop
23:22
Speaker 2: and looks just like this age progression? Act on it,
23:26
Speaker 2: Call somebody, you know. I mean, it happens every day.
23:31
Speaker 2: Cases are solved because an average citizen goes, you know what,
23:35
Speaker 2: that looks like an awful lot, like my son's coach,
23:38
Speaker 2: or that looks an awful lot like a guy I
23:40
Speaker 2: dated in college.
23:41
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's how he's going to be found.
23:44
Speaker 2: I believe that.
23:45
Speaker 4: I do.
23:46
Speaker 2: I believe that. I think there's some other things we
23:48
Speaker 2: can do to maybe help push it along, but I
23:50
Speaker 2: think that's the immediate. What you can do today on
23:53
Speaker 2: the anniversary, at the very least share his age progression,
23:58
Speaker 2: and then again and start talking to folks. You know,
24:03
Speaker 2: Angeline Hartman, you lived it with America's most wanted You
24:07
Speaker 2: lived it TV works, putting people's picture out there, putting
24:12
Speaker 2: composites out there. I mean, you got to live somewhere,
24:17
Speaker 2: you got a neighbor, you go to the grocery store,
24:20
Speaker 2: you get gasoline.
24:21
Speaker 4: Right, And that's why America's Most Wanted was such a phenomenon.
24:27
Speaker 4: Back then, it I mean there, it was the original, right,
24:33
Speaker 4: and it happened time and time again, hundreds of times
24:38
Speaker 4: where somebody called in. You know, you don't know when
24:41
Speaker 4: you're going to be that person. And that was back then.
24:44
Speaker 4: That show was on for twenty five years and it
24:47
Speaker 4: did incredible work. Fast forward to now, we have so
24:52
Speaker 4: much more with social media, with podcasts, with video like,
24:56
Speaker 4: so much more. So the power of what the commun
25:00
Speaker 4: unity can do is just limitless, truly, because we know
25:05
Speaker 4: people want to help. They're out there, they want to
25:08
Speaker 4: get involved. We just have to give them the information.
25:11
Speaker 4: They're motivated. Your audience is motivated people that go to
25:15
Speaker 4: crime con. That's why they spend they're hard to earn
25:20
Speaker 4: money to go so that they can make a difference.
25:25
Speaker 4: And it really is something special when it happens.
25:30
Speaker 2: When you mentioned crime con, this is a case, they
25:33
Speaker 2: will all share it. And not only that Angelica and Kevin.
25:39
Speaker 2: You may feel it there should be a shift because
25:42
Speaker 2: there's all of a sudden going to be all these
25:43
Speaker 2: thousands of people champion for y'all, thinking about y'all posting
25:49
Speaker 2: about Kevin Junior, and they mean it. This isn't something
25:53
Speaker 2: they take lightly. They will literally act as though this
25:56
Speaker 2: is their case right now.
25:58
Speaker 4: They're going to act like this is their relative, this
26:01
Speaker 4: is their family member.
26:02
Speaker 2: Amen. Yes, yeah, yeah.
26:05
Speaker 4: And here's the thing, you know, just with the timing
26:08
Speaker 4: of this all. As you know, if you're a Netflix viewer,
26:13
Speaker 4: you know that one of the top shows on Netflix
26:16
Speaker 4: recently is a show about infant abduction. Now specifically it's
26:24
Speaker 4: a subset of you know, they talk about fetal abduction,
26:27
Speaker 4: but it is you know, very very What that show
26:33
Speaker 4: has done has called attention to this topic and people
26:39
Speaker 4: are very interested in what's going on. Now. They're realizing, Wow,
26:44
Speaker 4: there are people out there who will do anything to
26:46
Speaker 4: get a baby, you know. And so there is a
26:50
Speaker 4: profile of an infant abductor and this woman falls in
26:55
Speaker 4: that category. And that show on Netflix has called attention
27:00
Speaker 4: to this topic and we're getting more questions than ever before.
27:05
Speaker 4: It's really something and I think that's what's going to
27:08
Speaker 4: happen with this podcast. We know that this woman targeted
27:14
Speaker 4: this family. I mean, she targeted this military off base
27:20
Speaker 4: housing complex. Why because she was looking for families, families
27:25
Speaker 4: who would respond to what she was offering, which is
27:31
Speaker 4: help for your babies, diapers, milk, whatever you need, possibly
27:36
Speaker 4: some money. Right, So she goes there. She knows that
27:40
Speaker 4: she's got an audience that's engaged. They're probably going to respond.
27:44
Speaker 4: She knocks on not one door, not two doors, but
27:47
Speaker 4: dozens of doors, sees dozens of people over days, talks
27:52
Speaker 4: to them. They hear that she can even speak to
27:56
Speaker 4: gaull Old, the national language of the Philippines. So you know,
28:01
Speaker 4: it's unclear did she speak fluently, did she just know
28:04
Speaker 4: some words? But that was noted and so she's familiar
28:09
Speaker 4: with the language. She's specifically looking for a baby. And
28:13
Speaker 4: what does she see. She finds Kevin and Angelina Verville
28:18
Speaker 4: and mom's Filipina. Dad is white, and that's what she's
28:24
Speaker 4: looking for. Investigators believe she was specifically targeting, specifically looking
28:29
Speaker 4: for that type of baby.
28:32
Speaker 2: Oh, there's no doubt about it. There's no doubt about it.
28:34
Speaker 2: There's no doubt because you can't meet mama and not
28:38
Speaker 2: go oh okay, there you go, because you know, if
28:41
Speaker 2: I showed up with that baby at a family re union,
28:43
Speaker 2: there's gonna be some questions. So she right, she must
28:48
Speaker 2: be attached. And then when you said, and Kevin said
28:53
Speaker 2: she looked as though she were pregnant, then that means
28:57
Speaker 2: maybe she had a miscarriage. Maybe she was never pregnant,
29:01
Speaker 2: but she was determined to get her a baby, and
29:05
Speaker 2: that baby had to look a certain way.
29:07
Speaker 4: And that baby had to be a certain age too,
29:10
Speaker 4: to go in line with her plan. Right, So it
29:13
Speaker 4: had to be like a newborn baby. Couldn't be a
29:16
Speaker 4: year old baby or anth old baby. Had to be
29:19
Speaker 4: in line with her time frame, right, And so what
29:22
Speaker 4: do you think, Mac? Do you think her partner, her
29:25
Speaker 4: boyfriend or her husband might have been Filipino or part Asian?
29:30
Speaker 2: Hundred percent?
29:31
Speaker 4: He was away, Maybe he was underway during that time
29:34
Speaker 4: and was coming back. Maybe she was even maybe he
29:39
Speaker 4: was part of Camp Pendleton, and who knows.
29:43
Speaker 2: But she chose that she chose a base. She and
29:47
Speaker 2: maybe she was even hoping that, you know, Kevin Senior
29:50
Speaker 2: wasn't even around. Maybe she was hoping he was gone somewhere.
29:53
Speaker 4: Well, she made sure he wasn't around when she So
29:57
Speaker 4: basically I think Dad talked about this just briefly, but
30:01
Speaker 4: just to make sure we all understand what happened here.
30:06
Speaker 4: When she introduced herself to mom and dad, she introduces
30:10
Speaker 4: the program and says, to think about it. I'll come
30:12
Speaker 4: back when she comes back. Mom and dad are unloading groceries,
30:17
Speaker 4: and she they had decided if she comes back, yes,
30:21
Speaker 4: we will, you know, we'll accept the program, will be
30:24
Speaker 4: part of it. And she says, hey, well that's great,
30:29
Speaker 4: I'd like to get some measurements of the baby. We
30:31
Speaker 4: need to do some you know, record keeping this and
30:34
Speaker 4: that whatever. I'll take you to the office. And so
30:38
Speaker 4: that's how she convinces mom to get to go with her,
30:43
Speaker 4: take the baby and go with her to the car
30:46
Speaker 4: and they'll drive to the office of Project Help. And
30:51
Speaker 4: she leaves behind dad because dad's putting away the groceries,
30:55
Speaker 4: and she convinces him to stay behind. Like Dad said earlier,
30:59
Speaker 4: well there's not enough room in the car because along
31:00
Speaker 4: the way we're going to pick up another mother. And
31:02
Speaker 4: so along the way she stops and she says, she
31:05
Speaker 4: pulls into this neighborhood and says, I'm going to, you know,
31:10
Speaker 4: help this other mother and her baby too. Can you
31:12
Speaker 4: get out of the car and knock on the door,
31:15
Speaker 4: and that's what happens. That's when the abduction happens. All right,
31:21
Speaker 4: So let me be really hard to imagine, really it is.
31:24
Speaker 2: It's unimaginable. But again, she had everything answered ahead of time.
31:29
Speaker 2: Oh there's no room, Oh we'll be right back. I mean,
31:31
Speaker 2: she's got it set or it makes sense.
31:35
Speaker 4: No, she clearly had a plan.
31:38
Speaker 1: Yeah.
31:39
Speaker 4: And so when investigators went back and figured out, oh,
31:43
Speaker 4: she had been here for days. Oh, she'd talked to
31:45
Speaker 4: all these people, like I said earlier, That's how they
31:48
Speaker 4: figured out she That's how they came up with the
31:53
Speaker 4: composite sketch because she had talked to so many people
31:57
Speaker 4: in that apartment complex. And I talked to some of
32:00
Speaker 4: those We tracked down some of those people, and can
32:03
Speaker 4: you imagine some of those mothers have said to me now, like,
32:06
Speaker 4: oh my gosh, I talked to that lady, what if
32:08
Speaker 4: this would have been me? I mean, people are horrified
32:11
Speaker 4: on different levels.
32:12
Speaker 2: That's right, Well, they could have been them, if the
32:15
Speaker 2: baby had been right, it would have been.
32:17
Speaker 4: Them, right, right.
32:24
Speaker 2: Kevin Senior in Angelica, I'm gonna ask you all this
32:27
Speaker 2: question because I'm thinking now it is a military base.
32:31
Speaker 2: Was there not a guard there? How was she able
32:33
Speaker 2: to ride into the base?
32:37
Speaker 1: It was off base base housing, and the gate for
32:41
Speaker 1: driving a car into had a guard there. So if
32:43
Speaker 1: you drove on to the property, you had to have
32:47
Speaker 1: a sticker on your car or some kind of identification.
32:51
Speaker 1: But because it was off base housing, there was a
32:55
Speaker 1: walking yate where you could walk in and you did
32:58
Speaker 1: not need any identification to walk through that gate. You
33:02
Speaker 1: could walk right on.
33:04
Speaker 2: Well, Angelica, do you think there's a chance she had
33:07
Speaker 2: a sticker on her car or some kind of fake ID.
33:10
Speaker 3: So I recall my mom telling you the story, and
33:15
Speaker 3: I remember her saying that she hadn't walked a long
33:18
Speaker 3: way to get to the car, okay, and that bothered
33:22
Speaker 3: her because she still had stitches from giving birth.
33:26
Speaker 2: Okay, so she didn't drive on all right. Well that
33:30
Speaker 2: answers that. And you know there's probably a lot of
33:32
Speaker 2: people that might say, why didn't she get a tag number?
33:36
Speaker 2: I mean, Kevin explained that. So people don't bring that
33:40
Speaker 2: up and don't harp on the wrong thing.
33:42
Speaker 1: Well, Andelina was born and raised in the Philippines, and
33:47
Speaker 1: if you ever been, if you'd been to the Philippines
33:50
Speaker 1: during that era, most people did not have cars. You
33:54
Speaker 1: rode public transportation, and so she would not She did
33:59
Speaker 1: not understand that each car had to have a registration,
34:03
Speaker 1: and each car had its own specific plate on it,
34:05
Speaker 1: so she wouldn't have known to look for the plate.
34:10
Speaker 1: Plus even the stress of all thing that was going on,
34:13
Speaker 1: she couldn't even hardly describe the car, Plus she didn't
34:17
Speaker 1: know what to look for it.
34:18
Speaker 4: To begin with, Matt, can I just say something, yes, please,
34:22
Speaker 4: this family you talk about, you know, you brought up
34:27
Speaker 4: that question to help answer that for people who might
34:32
Speaker 4: be critical. This family has received so much criticism over
34:40
Speaker 4: the years. In the beginning, I should say, you know,
34:44
Speaker 4: when this first happened, because of course people say why
34:47
Speaker 4: did he let her go? Why did she let the
34:50
Speaker 4: baby go? Why this? Why that? And that just makes
34:55
Speaker 4: me so mad because it's not fair, and that's blaming
34:59
Speaker 4: the victim, and don't get me started with that. But basically,
35:04
Speaker 4: I just want to say right now that let's not
35:07
Speaker 4: do that. And I don't.
35:14
Speaker 2: Know, you said it perfect.
35:15
Speaker 4: This family's been through a lot, and.
35:17
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and here's the deal. They were set up. They
35:21
Speaker 2: were set up by a criminal, They were set up
35:23
Speaker 2: by somebody that would steal a baby. They were set
35:26
Speaker 2: up by somebody that had a plan in place, probably
35:31
Speaker 2: even before Kevin Junior was born. So again, it can
35:36
Speaker 2: happen in a blink of an eye and you know
35:40
Speaker 2: they're waiting, they're stalking, they are predators. One mistake, that's
35:47
Speaker 2: when it happens. You turn your back for one second.
35:50
Speaker 2: You let them walk just around the corner. You let
35:53
Speaker 2: them get on a video game, you let them go
35:55
Speaker 2: to a sleepover, you let them walk next door. But
35:58
Speaker 2: that's normal childhood behavior. You've got to be able to
36:03
Speaker 2: ride a bike, You've got to be able to walk
36:05
Speaker 2: down the street, You've got to be able to go
36:07
Speaker 2: to a friend's house. So I mean, it's not your fault.
36:11
Speaker 2: It's not your fault, Angelico, What are you think it, honey?
36:16
Speaker 3: I also want to point out that my dad was
36:18
Speaker 3: from a very small town in North Dakota and in
36:23
Speaker 3: the Philippines. The culture there is you invite strangers over
36:27
Speaker 3: to your house. I mean, it's a very open door culture.
36:31
Speaker 3: So I feel like they were very open I mean
36:36
Speaker 3: I remember going to North Dakota with my dad and
36:40
Speaker 3: ask him, why are you waving at people that you're
36:43
Speaker 3: driving by because I did not grow up around that.
36:48
Speaker 3: You know, where I grew up, people didn't wave at
36:51
Speaker 3: each other. But you know, I'm like, did you know
36:54
Speaker 3: that person? He's like, no, but you just did. You drove,
36:58
Speaker 3: You drove by each other and you waved at each
36:59
Speaker 3: other there in a small town.
37:01
Speaker 4: Right, So he's from a small town. She's from overseas
37:05
Speaker 4: on onn Island. This is forty five years ago. Forty
37:09
Speaker 4: six years ago now, so just imagine things were so different,
37:14
Speaker 4: so different.
37:15
Speaker 2: There's only one person of lame, and it's the mysterious Sheila,
37:19
Speaker 2: whoever she is. That's it. Period. So Angeline, I just
37:24
Speaker 2: have one question for you with this stolen baby. How
37:28
Speaker 2: do you think she got a birth certificate in a
37:30
Speaker 2: way to get him into a doctor, into school later
37:34
Speaker 2: on a social Security number?
37:36
Speaker 4: Who knows? Mac. I mean, there's so many different ways, right,
37:40
Speaker 4: I mean, she could have been did she go overseas
37:43
Speaker 4: after this? Did she have somebody else? You know, she
37:46
Speaker 4: could have come up with any story. I mean, we
37:48
Speaker 4: know from other infant abduction cases that the paperwork is
37:57
Speaker 4: is not an issue, right, these the things happened. She
38:01
Speaker 4: could have claimed the heme hearted, Yeah, anything, anything, But
38:08
Speaker 4: what we The important thing to note right now is
38:11
Speaker 4: that she took him to raise him herself. People take
38:19
Speaker 4: children or babies for different reasons, but in this particular case,
38:24
Speaker 4: it is highly likely that she took Kevin Verville Junior
38:29
Speaker 4: to raise as her own baby, right to raise on
38:33
Speaker 4: her own. And if that's the case, fast forward to now,
38:38
Speaker 4: that means he has grown up. He's forty six years
38:41
Speaker 4: old today and has no idea about his real identity
38:45
Speaker 4: walking around this earth.
38:48
Speaker 2: Kevin Senior, thank you so much. I appreciate you sharing
38:51
Speaker 2: this heartbreaking story. Angelica, thank you so much. And y'all
38:56
Speaker 2: have got an army behind you now. So Angeline Hartman
39:00
Speaker 2: and what can people do tonight? What can they do
39:03
Speaker 2: this minute?
39:04
Speaker 4: Well, first, I'd like them to go to YouTube to
39:08
Speaker 4: nick Mix YouTube channel, the National Center for Missing Exploited
39:12
Speaker 4: Children and look up the Kevin Verville story. We put
39:16
Speaker 4: together a nine to ten minute story. I'm sure you'll
39:19
Speaker 4: give them the link, Mac and I want them to
39:21
Speaker 4: watch the full scope of what happened here and then
39:25
Speaker 4: that will give them some that will give them more information.
39:31
Speaker 4: We want them to share the age progression photo, the
39:34
Speaker 4: image of what he might look like now and we
39:38
Speaker 4: want to hear back regarding this abductor what are their ideas.
39:44
Speaker 4: Let's figure out how to get the focus on her
39:48
Speaker 4: because we're not just looking for him, we're looking for her.
39:51
Speaker 4: And the more people talk about this, I'm asking people
39:56
Speaker 4: to talk about this the whole month of July. Today
39:59
Speaker 4: was forty six years ago when he was abducted. But
40:03
Speaker 4: let's talk about it for the whole month of July
40:06
Speaker 4: and make it something that the topic of conversation, and
40:11
Speaker 4: the more people talk about it, the more it'll get
40:13
Speaker 4: out there.
40:14
Speaker 2: And that's our goal absolutely. And let me just tell
40:18
Speaker 2: the folks here in Zone seven, Angeline Hartman and I
40:21
Speaker 2: are talking about some things to do. So while we're
40:24
Speaker 2: thinking of what's next, what can we do that hadn't
40:27
Speaker 2: been done? Like Angeline Hartman said, y'all do the same thing,
40:31
Speaker 2: all right. So I appreciate all of you, and we
40:34
Speaker 2: will have updates as we get them, and we are
40:36
Speaker 2: all going to start sharing. So thank y'all so much.
40:41
Speaker 4: Mac, thank you for everything you're doing for this case,
40:43
Speaker 4: for all of the cases that you cover. You are
40:47
Speaker 4: I mean, we cannot say enough good about your work.
40:52
Speaker 4: You're the real deal, my friend, and I just love
40:55
Speaker 4: you well.
40:56
Speaker 2: Nobody fights alone over here. Y. I'm going end Zone
41:00
Speaker 2: seven the way that I always do with a quote.
41:04
Speaker 2: The tip that solves this case could come from anywhere.
41:09
Speaker 2: Angeline Hartman, director of Communications for the National Center for
41:14
Speaker 2: Missing and Exploited Children. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is
41:19
Speaker 2: Zone seven.