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176: Behn Wilson - NHL/Flyers & Blackhawks · Sports History Network

• 1:50
  This podcast is part of the Sports History Network, your headquarters for the yesteryear of your favorite sport.
• 1:55
  You can learn more@sportshistorynetwork.com he.
• 1:59
  Was one of the NHL's tough guys, a bruising defenseman on a team known for its bruisers, the Philadelphia Flyers, and later the Chicago Blackhawks.
• 2:09
  Yet he also had an offensive touch to his game.
• 2:12
  But it was the intimidation aspect to his game that made him one of the most feared players in the NHL.
• 2:18
  And and next on Sports Forgotten Heroes, Ben Wilson joins the podcast to talk about his game and how it all started.
• 2:28
  This is Sports Forgotten Heroes, a tribute to the stars who shaped the games we love to watch and the games we love to play.
• 2:35
  Stars who provided us with many thrills, but when their time was up, they faded away.
• 2:40
  We'll take a look back at their spectacular careers, their moments of fame, even if it was just for one season or just one game.
• 2:47
  And now, here's your host, Warren Rogan.
• 2:50
  Hello and welcome to Sports forgotten heroes episode 176, Ben Wilson now, as a fan of the New York Rangers, I remember watching Ben Wilson and not particularly liking him.
• 3:04
  Of course, that was as a fan of the game.
• 3:07
  After having the opportunity to spend some time with Ben and talking about his game, the dedication and sacrifices he made to earn his way onto an NHL roster, I'll be the first to admit how much my opinion of
• 3:21
  Ben has changed.
• 3:22
  From his early days playing hockey on an ice rink his father made every winter in his backyard, to the hours he spent on the ice, how he had to sacrifice what we would call a normal childhood to how
• 3:35
  he still managed to study in school and leaving home at such an early age to start his journey to the NHL.
• 3:43
  Ben's story is actually quite remarkable.
• 3:47
  And then his career in the NHL.
• 3:49
  The stories he tells.
• 3:51
  What a fun and fantastic experience it was to speak with Ben and I am super excited to share it all with you right here on Sports Forgotten Heroes.
• 4:01
  And talk to Ben about his new book, Gloves Off.
• 4:05
  Before we get there, a few reminders.
• 4:06
  Please follow Sports Forgotten Heroes on X@SportsFheroes, look for the Sports Forgotten Heroes page on Facebook and look for video shorts on Instagram @SportsForgottenHeroes as well.
• 4:20
  And don't forget, please leave a five star review wherever it is you are listening and if you can give us a share and a like as well.
• 4:31
  Also, if you have a comment or question or anything else, please send me an email sportsfh.infomail.com that's sportsfh.infomail dot com and as always, thanks for your support.
• 4:48
  Okay, let's get into today's show with my special guest, Ben Wilson.
• 4:56
  Joining me now on Sports Forgotten Heroes, former NHL player for the Philadelphia Flyers and Chicago Blackhawks, Ben Wilson.
• 5:05
  Ben, welcome to Sports Forgotten Heroes.
• 5:08
  Hey, guys.
• 5:09
  Hey.
• 5:09
  Thanks for having me.
• 5:10
  Oh, my pleasure.
• 5:12
  This is really, really a treat.
• 5:15
  I got to admit, I grew up a Rangers fan.
• 5:19
  I saw you play against my Rangers at Madison Square Garden a couple of times, and it was a different game back when you played and you captured a lot of it in your book Gloves Off.
• 5:36
  Really enjoyed reading it.
• 5:38
  I love the way you formatted the book.
• 5:41
  Just a lot of short stories made it, made it a lot of fun to read.
• 5:50
  I'd like to start today's show.
• 5:53
  For those who don't recall who Ben Wilson, the hockey player, was, how would you describe your game?
• 6:08
  First of all, is there anyone that doesn't know me or how I play?
• 6:12
  No, I'm.
• 6:13
  Talking about the guys who are, who are, who are 16, 17 and 18 today.
• 6:19
  Well, I think back then the referees didn't call penalties.
• 6:26
  The game was very violent.
• 6:28
  And if your team was going to get pushed around, you were never going to win.
• 6:33
  So the game was tough.
• 6:35
  And so, you know, I played a hard game.
• 6:40
  I tried to not only defend my teammates, I tried to intimidate the other, the other team and try to ruin their games.
• 6:49
  And I also, I also played.
• 6:54
  I was on the ice, covered a lot of ice, time, minutes.
• 6:58
  And so there was always two games going on at once.
• 7:01
  You're trying to play hockey.
• 7:02
  I'm trying to keep up and play with Bobby Clark, Billy Barber, Reggie Leach, you know, the top players, they expect you to be able to pass the puck and be open and all that sort of stuff.
• 7:16
  And then, you know, the violent part of the game came out and you just try to juggle two the best you can.
• 7:24
  How would you say the game of today differs from the game that you played?
• 7:34
  Wow.
• 7:34
  Wow.
• 7:35
  The.
• 7:38
  It's fair to say I felt that the whistle blew and their player stopped skating in front of Arnett.
• 7:47
  He's just standing there and relaxes.
• 7:49
  I probably had 2, 3 seconds after the whistle to cross check him as hard as I could behind.
• 7:55
  And I used to joke with the guys on the team.
• 7:59
  I said, I don't know why anyone slows down just because the whistle goes.
• 8:03
  Because now you're easier to catch, you're defenseless, and you cross check the guys as hard as you can.
• 8:09
  Now, today if you do that, not only a penalty, you'd be suspended.
• 8:15
  You know, the late hits, the cross checking and all that stuff, the, the, the non stop intimidation is gone.
• 8:26
  And so I would say when I played, there were some good players that couldn't play in the NHL because they couldn't take the beatings.
• 8:37
  And the second half of my career they started calling penalties and all sudden there's some tough guys that lost their careers because they weren't good enough players.
• 8:46
  And all of a sudden guys that could skate could start playing again.
• 8:49
  So I was right there during the transition and I really look that the, I had two careers, five years and, five years.
• 9:02
  And it was, it was day and day and night.
• 9:05
  And.
• 9:06
  I, I, I would also say just popped in my head right now.
• 9:10
  I, I'm 19, playing for the Flyers, and I thought every night was, we're fighting to the death every night and I don't know who's going to survive, including me, but that was perfectly fine.
• 9:23
  And I felt, felt bad for the guys that are, you know, 30, 31 years old.
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  They're trying to get one more year in the league.
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  You know, they got a family, they're about, they think they're hanging and trying to retire.
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  And I don't want anyone to retire.
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  I want victory or death.
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  And I felt bad for those guys.
• 9:41
  So it was a relief.
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  By the time, you know, I'm on the older end, I retired at 29.
• 9:49
  So when I'm 29, you didn't have.
• 9:53
  The game was tough, it was physical, but it wasn't, you know, who's dying tonight type of thing.
• 10:00
  So it was a bit of relief because it's hard to keep that going every year.
• 10:07
  You know, you spend a good portion of the book, particularly the beginning of your book, talking about growing up with hockey.
• 10:17
  You know, hockey's been in your blood, as the saying goes.
• 10:21
  I think it's, you know, you could skate before you could walk.
• 10:26
  You know, you, your father, your brothers played a lot of hockey during your formative years.
• 10:33
  When you look back on that time, what are some of your fondest memories?
• 10:39
  Well, the one that sticks out for me, my father and I put this in the book about how we made the skating rink in our backyard, which is, and I'll just, I can just digress and tell it that
• 10:55
  what you do, my father would go stamp down the snow in the backyard.
• 10:58
  We were in Toronto.
• 10:59
  Stamp down the snow and then take a hose out.
• 11:02
  And if you just hose it, you'll burn holes through the snow.
• 11:06
  So he'd put a mist spray on just lightly, and then the mist spray would freeze and then put another mist and finally it seals and then you slowly add water and it levels itself.
• 11:17
  So we had a skating rink in our backyard.
• 11:20
  And so we used to, my brothers and I and all our neighbors, after school, we would go out and skate, and my mother would call us in for dinner.
• 11:34
  We'd come in, take our skates off, cry for about 10 minutes because our feet are frozen, have dinner, go back out, go back out with the floodlight, and my mother would call us.
• 11:45
  And when it's time for.
• 11:49
  It's time to go to bed and we take our skates off and cry again.
• 11:53
  And weekends, weekends, it was three times.
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  And we never seemed to get the association of going out in the.
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  Our feet freezing and the crying.
• 12:05
  We never caught on to that one.
• 12:07
  And it was.
• 12:09
  And everyone from the neighborhood is there.
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  Everyone from the neighborhood.
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  And you know, you try to.
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  The boards were snow banks, so pucks would go into the, in the, in the snow, and you try to dig it out and try to dig it out, and sometimes you couldn't.
• 12:25
  So in the spring, as the snow is melting, we might find 20, 30, maybe 50 pucks just lying around all over the place.
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  And.
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  And, but, but they were great times.
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  We loved it.
• 12:41
  We loved.
• 12:44
  I have grandkids, two grandsons.
• 12:48
  They play hockey, and they love it.
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  And it's not that I encourage them.
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  They love it, and it's a great sport for young boys.
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  It keeps them busy, keeps them out of trouble, and it's nothing but fun.
• 13:02
  I always say this to all my guests who write books.
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  We can't go over every detail in the book.
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  If we do, we'd be here for quite some time.
• 13:13
  And then.
• 13:14
  And then when I tell somebody to go out and buy your book, they'd say, I don't need to.
• 13:18
  I just heard about the whole book.
• 13:19
  So we're going to jump around a little and we're going to move the story a little further.
• 13:23
  And by the way, I love the story about how your dad made the ice.
• 13:28
  It's a really cool story, but.
• 13:32
  But I do need to move forward, and I want to.
• 13:36
  Is a tough word.
• 13:38
  Bullies.
• 13:39
  I'm not calling you a bully by any stretch of the imagination.
• 13:44
  But you know, in your book, you.
• 13:46
  You had encounters with bullies when you were in grade school, and maybe that's where you, Ben Wilson, became somewhat of a fighter and a protector, something you carried all the way to the NHL.
• 14:04
  Tell us about those first encounters.
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  That you experienced with bullies and how you handled them.
• 14:14
  Well, I was always big for my age and what I considered a bully and growing up, and I think we all have is bullies are usually three or four years older than you.
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  And, you know, it's not really a challenge for them to bully around someone younger or there's.
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  Or there's two or three of them and, you know, what are you going to do?
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  So that offends me.
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  That offends me.
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  And we grew up in a nice suburban area, wasn't tough by any means, and.
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  But you know, you get relative bullies and you know, you're wrote in the.
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  The school park, school field, after school or at recess.
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  And you know, bullies, they'd come and take your soccer ball, wouldn't give it back to you, and I couldn't stand it.
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  I jump in and I end up getting in a fight, and they're three years older than me and I got beat up.
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  And.
• 15:21
  And then the next time the bullies are picking on one of my friends and I jump in and you know, they're three, four years older than me and I get beat up.
• 15:29
  And again, like, like our feet freezing and crying.
• 15:34
  I never caught onto it at the time.
• 15:37
  At the time, what they were doing was wrong.
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  It pissed me off.
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  I couldn't stand my friends, my classmates and all that getting picked on by, by bullies, and they couldn't stand up to him.
• 15:51
  So for some reason I did.
• 15:53
  I think I got beat up every time.
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  I don't think I ever got in a fight with kid my own age.
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  They're all older.
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  And the funny part about it is, back then, I shouldn't say I lost every fight, but back then, after every fight, I cried.
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  It just like.
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  It's like an emotional release from all the adrenaline and I didn't know how to do it.
• 16:14
  I cried.
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  So what would happen is something would happen.
• 16:20
  I'd get in a fight.
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  Win or lose, I cried.
• 16:22
  The teachers would come out and they see, you know, a kid in sixth grade and me in third grade, and I'm crying and, you know, I think a sixth grader against a third grader, they.
• 16:34
  They know who shouldn't have been fighting, right?
• 16:36
  You don't have to, you know.
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  You know, I don't walk down and push over a lady with the, with a baby carriage because I can.
• 16:44
  So there's that.
• 16:46
  But also, I'm crying and I kind of look like a victim.
• 16:48
  So they called me in the principal's office.
• 16:51
  You know, it was fairly Regular.
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  But I never got in trouble.
• 16:55
  And of course I thought I was right.
• 16:58
  I thought I was morally right and all that sort of stuff and whatever, and I'm crying and, and my parents, My parents were always supportive, were always supportive in nurturing and things like that.
• 17:14
  So it just went on and on.
• 17:16
  And then I don't know when all of that happened, but then you move into hockey and it was the same thing.
• 17:23
  You get the other team's, you know, bully, intimidator.
• 17:27
  And, you know, it helps if you can get, if you can intimidate the other team's goal scorer.
• 17:35
  Instead of being five feet in front of the net to put the puck in the net.
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  He's.
• 17:39
  He's 20ft back, worrying about his health.
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  He's not scoring.
• 17:43
  You've done your job, it's worked.
• 17:45
  So it was, it was the same thing, number one is don't let your team get mates, get pushed around.
• 17:51
  So, you know, your smaller goal scorers, they, they don't possess that fear, but also try to instill a lot of fear and ruin their, their goal scorers.
• 18:06
  And so with that, if I can say, and I wrote this in my book, there's lots of ways to be tough.
• 18:13
  And, you know, fighting and winning and beating up the other guys is a great way.
• 18:18
  But I've said this many times.
• 18:22
  Paul Holmgren with the Flyers, tough as nails, I don't think a great fighter, but he was tough as nails.
• 18:30
  He would run over guys and run over guys.
• 18:33
  He'd run over goaltenders and he wasn't backing down, just wasn't a great fighter, but he was, he's as tough as they come.
• 18:40
  And then as I wrote in my book, the.
• 18:42
  There's another class of tough guys, and that would be Billy Barber, Bobby Clark, Reggie Leach, Brian Trache, Mike Bossi.
• 18:56
  And they were tough because, you know, you could beat on them, you could hack them, you could do whatever you wanted to do, but they weren't the 20ft away from the goal.
• 19:06
  Those guys, when it's time to score, they were there and you couldn't intimidate them.
• 19:11
  You couldn't throw them off their game.
• 19:13
  You can take pen.
• 19:14
  You could take penalties against them and then the score, but you couldn't back them down.
• 19:20
  So it's, they weren't tough in terms of giving it out, but they were tough mentally because you couldn't change their game.
• 19:28
  And, and I have.
• 19:29
  So there's a lot of ways to be tough.
• 19:31
  You know, it's, it's.
• 19:32
  And, and, and I had a Tremendous amount of respect because I recognize that.
• 19:37
  Day one.
• 19:38
  Mm.
• 19:42
  Obviously at a young age you were discovering the kind of hockey player that you, that, that, that you might grow up to be.
• 19:52
  And somebody had to recognize that you had an aptitude for this game.
• 19:57
  So junior hockey became a big part of your life as a youngster.
• 20:03
  The long hours of practice, skipping classes, I guess not going to school, missing your family.
• 20:12
  How demanding is junior hockey on a youngster?
• 20:17
  I mean, you lived it.
• 20:18
  What is that like?
• 20:22
  I'll tell you what, it's, it's overwhelmingly difficult.
• 20:27
  I left home at 16.
• 20:29
  For me, There were great natural players in junior and I'm sitting the bench and I'm on the team mostly because I'm running over everything that moves.
• 20:47
  I'm fighting.
• 20:48
  If there were, if there were 50 fights in my first training camp, I was in 45 of them and, but I wasn't, I wasn't good enough to just be on the team and, and not get in fights.
• 20:59
  So I knew I had to do something.
• 21:01
  And then what I did while we're there, my brother and I and John, and what we did is with team practices two hours a day, almost all the time.
• 21:10
  We'd skate another four hours and by the team got time, the team got on the ice, we were, we were absolutely exhausted.
• 21:19
  And you just keep going and, and then you still got to look good for the.
• 21:24
  It was extremely difficult for us and we slowly developed our skating and our skills and tried to keep up with everyone.
• 21:33
  But looking back, it's a, I think that I say that for everyone that goes to junior, it's a tough way to go.
• 21:40
  It's a tough way to go.
• 21:42
  And not for the, certainly not for the faint hearted.
• 21:48
  And the other thing is as you're missing school and all that, you.
• 21:55
  There's no guarantee that junior is a stepping stone to pro and, and you know, of a guy on a, on, on a junior team now There are only 30 teams in Canada when I played.
• 22:09
  And so, you know, it's a, it's a, it's elite in the sense that, you know, in the US it would be, I don't know, 2000 colleges and universities.
• 22:19
  So there's a, you know, it's a lot more competitive lead, but still, I mean, not even one guy, a team turns pro.
• 22:28
  So it's a tremendous sacrifice.
• 22:31
  Everybody was working their damnedest in their own way.
• 22:36
  And when I say there's no guarantees, you just don't know how you, your mind, your body and all that is going to develop.
• 22:48
  Right.
• 22:49
  And you can be, you know, what happens if, you know not to be a smart ass, but if you forget to grow and it just doesn't happen, like, how do you know that you're a big kid and all
• 23:01
  of a sudden you, you stop growing and now you're too small.
• 23:03
  And you know, how do you know about your speed?
• 23:07
  How do you know about any of these things?
• 23:08
  So it's, it's.
• 23:10
  The numbers are against you.
• 23:11
  And the guys, the guys worked really, really hard.
• 23:17
  They, they gave everything they had, every one of them.
• 23:21
  So.
• 23:23
  I'd imagine, you know, hockey obviously provided so much for you, but when you, when you think about it as a whole, I guess this is somewhat of a tough question.
• 23:37
  Do you have any regrets about school, meaning your commitment to hockey?
• 23:46
  From what I read and from what I know and you know, and what we all always hear, your commitment to hockey had to be total and school often came second.
• 23:55
  I mean, you wrote about, you and your brother did schoolwork with the help of teachers during the summers and you spent long hours studying and testing, but you didn't have, or I would guess I can't put words in
• 24:12
  your mouth, the same kind of friendships with school buddies that the normal child would have.
• 24:21
  Are there any regrets about such a lifestyle?
• 24:24
  Well, didn't want it for my kids, that's for sure.
• 24:29
  It was difficult.
• 24:32
  I think my father's thought was, you know, basically by the time you're 19 or 20, where your hockey's going and it's not too late to go back to school.
• 24:45
  So I had, have two brothers.
• 24:48
  They're both very good and in my opinion, they're both good enough to play in the NHL.
• 24:58
  The problem is if you're near the bottom of the pecking order, you're in the minors, you're up, you're in the minors, you're up and you know, you really don't make that much money and your career was short.
• 25:15
  So my older brother, after junior hockey, he was drafted.
• 25:23
  After hockey he was, he went back in the, he became a retina surgery, a surgeon.
• 25:30
  So he, he did that well and it was, it was, it was difficult because now you're, I know he was like a year or two behind.
• 25:40
  You're out of academics and now you want to be excel at academics and other guys have been studying along.
• 25:46
  So he had a, a rough go to get going, but he did it.
• 25:50
  And my younger brother was drafted by the New York Rangers.
• 25:56
  He played one year in the Miners.
• 25:59
  He actually played one game against me when he was with the Rangers.
• 26:03
  And all I, I mean I almost, I almost passed in pucks so he'd have breakaways on our team.
• 26:09
  And so it was, it was horrible for me.
• 26:12
  But he went back to school and get to get caught up.
• 26:17
  He.
• 26:18
  And he became a dentist.
• 26:20
  But it was tough.
• 26:21
  It was tough.
• 26:23
  And so, you know, they went from playing hockey and all every summer we skated six hours a day and went to bed at seven at night.
• 26:33
  And so they went from a tough, tough life like that and then they had to switch gears and, and, and, and do the same thing in academics just to, just to catch up and compete.
• 26:49
  And it's a tough way to go.
• 26:51
  I didn't want that for my kids, that's for sure.
• 26:54
  And you know, I think, I think my, my brothers and I were fortunate that in some sense that we came out on the good end.
• 27:06
  And, and then the other part about it is that is your life, that's your history.
• 27:11
  That's who you are.
• 27:13
  And you know, and it's incumbent upon everyone from wherever they are today is make their best life right?
• 27:20
  So I don't worry about it.
• 27:23
  I don't think about was it was, it was tough, exhausting, not only physically but, but also mentally.
• 27:31
  How are you doing?
• 27:32
  How do you get it?
• 27:32
  You know, you know, why aren't I playing?
• 27:34
  Can I get another shift on the ice?
• 27:36
  Oh, I had a pad shift and you know, it was, it was all consuming.
• 27:40
  There's no question it's all consuming.
• 27:42
  Let's talk a little bit about the game.
• 27:45
  One word that you used a lot in your book is rage.
• 27:50
  Explain what rage meant to you as a player, how you were able to summon it and then somehow not take it home with you.
• 28:03
  The.
• 28:05
  I think there's a couple things.
• 28:07
  Number one is going back to defending all my schoolmates with a kid that's going to beat me up.
• 28:16
  You just, you just, just do it.
• 28:18
  No one else was.
• 28:19
  And you just, you have to summon up all your adrenaline, everything you got.
• 28:31
  You're not pacing yourself for a two day fight or a one day fight.
• 28:35
  You've got to put it all together and it makes you stronger and it makes you more violent and gives you everything.
• 28:42
  And so what I wrote in my book, I'm talking, is that when I'm 19 and I said earlier I didn't care who lived or died, it was, it was tonight's night and you know, someone's going to live, someone's
• 28:57
  going to die and we'll see what happens.
• 28:59
  And you've got to summon up that Rage, it makes you stronger.
• 29:03
  You know, a lot of fights could be 30 seconds, right?
• 29:07
  And you know, if you're warming up mentally and physically and you're going to be ready in one minute, you're gonna have the hell kicked out of you.
• 29:15
  And how do you summon up that rage?
• 29:20
  Billy Barber always used to laugh hopefully at with me, but at me.
• 29:25
  And he says, oh, you snapped.
• 29:27
  Oh, you know, he called me Toby.
• 29:29
  Toby, you snapped.
• 29:30
  You know, and, but it, but it's like that.
• 29:35
  And you know, you think of some of the guys I fought like I was 6, 3, 2, 10.
• 29:42
  And you know, I fought Clark Gillies, who's 6 3, he's at least 220 and he's body with Adonis and then Barry Beck, 6, 3, 2, 25.
• 29:58
  And these guys are ripped.
• 29:59
  These are just ripped.
• 30:01
  And you know, you better, you better have, you better bring everything you got.
• 30:09
  And, and you know, I was able to do it.
• 30:15
  And I think that what happens to a lot of the fighters is there's just too many fights and eventually you can't summon your rage.
• 30:25
  And you, you, you, you.
• 30:26
  So it's, there's two, it's, there's, there's too small a difference between winning and losing a fight.
• 30:38
  You can't go, oh, I got 75%.
• 30:41
  I'll still do pretty good.
• 30:42
  You know, you're either at, you know, 100 or 99 or you're going to have, you know, your head beaten in.
• 30:50
  And you know, and the tough part about those fights is that those guys are big and incredibly strong and you know, they'll put a fist through your face and you're not really coming back well after, if they, if
• 31:06
  they get them, there's, that is, it was that, is that tough?
• 31:10
  And, and then, you know, another thing is the toughest guy or the biggest, he was tough, he was mean.
• 31:19
  He was the biggest pain in the ass for me as Willie Platt.
• 31:22
  And I thought I fought him eight times.
• 31:25
  But that doesn't mean, that just means, oh, hey, it's, you know, we're all ready, let's fight.
• 31:30
  You know, that means he's run me over from behind.
• 31:33
  He's, Cross checked me in the head a little different when I ran him from behind and cross checked him in the head.
• 31:39
  And.
• 31:40
  You're a little more, you know it's coming but, you know, it's not like, it's not like you get to say today, do I want to fight and am I ready?
• 31:48
  You know, you don't get that vote.
• 31:50
  And so you, you you, the rage.
• 31:54
  You can't play with the rage, I don't think.
• 31:58
  But it's got to come on pretty quickly.
• 32:01
  And I, I didn't play a game by saying, oh, now I'm going to go fight this guy.
• 32:06
  It never happened.
• 32:08
  And some guys did, like, some guys didn't go in the corner first.
• 32:13
  They just floated around.
• 32:14
  They could take a heck of a run at you, but didn't go in the corner first.
• 32:17
  So they never got the puck, but they also didn't get run over.
• 32:21
  And some guys don't play much ice time, and they're fresh and they don't mind getting you fighting you at the end of the game after I've been playing in 25 to 30 minutes, or they don't mind, or they
• 32:35
  plan on coming after you at the end of your shift.
• 32:38
  So you know, you know the end of the game and the end of your shift when you're, when you're tired.
• 32:44
  Rage is your best and only friend.
• 32:47
  And, and you better have it, because if not, you're taking a pounding.
• 32:53
  And there's a couple.
• 32:54
  I even wrote in my book.
• 32:57
  There's, there's sometimes you don't, you don't always feel good, right?
• 33:00
  And I had chronic allergies, chronic infections.
• 33:04
  And I remember I got three fights where before the game, I said, I really even shouldn't be playing.
• 33:10
  I'm so tired.
• 33:12
  I'm so weak, and I'm so weak, and I, I can't fight anybody.
• 33:18
  I mean, not anybody.
• 33:19
  And there's three times I got in a fight.
• 33:22
  And you better, you know, you, you need all your rage to, to just save yourself.
• 33:30
  And, and I don't know what the other guys, fighters did and how, whatever that is, but you better, you better get all your strength and everything you're going, and it's, and you know, it could be 30 seconds.
• 33:44
  And then the other tough one is every now and then let the fights go.
• 33:49
  And then you, you've, you've, you've put everything, all the energy you have in, in, in 30 seconds.
• 33:58
  And now what?
• 33:59
  There's no bell.
• 34:00
  There's no bell.
• 34:01
  It's not saying, hey, you know, it's usually 30 seconds.
• 34:03
  That's really good, guys.
• 34:04
  It just goes on.
• 34:05
  And you better keep summoning up something before you get your, your head beat.
• 34:13
  You ever have a drink with one of those guys afterwards, say, hey, man, great game.
• 34:19
  At the time?
• 34:21
  No, but I would say this.
• 34:26
  I learned early on, and sometimes you read about, you know, fans take swings at guys and whatever and, and Then you're in court and it's expensive.
• 34:42
  And I learned early on it's on the ice.
• 34:49
  And, you know, and, and, and just, and, and you let it.
• 34:53
  You let it go, and I don't think it's right, and it makes me, you know, angry, but whatever.
• 35:02
  But fans can take a swing at you now.
• 35:06
  Why?
• 35:06
  It's not protected better than that.
• 35:11
  And if they hit you, that's okay.
• 35:13
  You hit them back.
• 35:15
  You know, you're in a civil suit, maybe criminal suit, you're in trouble.
• 35:19
  And so that was.
• 35:24
  That was crazy.
• 35:25
  So when you're playing with the, with the players off the ice, I had this mentality where if I saw them, I would say shake their hand, say hi, and, and no, no hard feelings, and the next game is
• 35:41
  back to the same thing.
• 35:42
  And so I haven't hadn't done a show, an appearance or anything in 35 years.
• 35:50
  And with the book, I said, ah, you know, and the Flyers call me every year and say they have Fight Night and they have a big facility, a thousand people, and they always asked me to go, and I
• 36:07
  kind of almost go, but never.
• 36:08
  But anyway, last year, actually a few months ago, I went to fight Night, and Brad Marsh, who runs it for the Flyers, he said, we go up, we send guys up in groups of two, and who would you
• 36:22
  like to come with you?
• 36:24
  And I said, willie Platt.
• 36:27
  Now, Willie's cut me with a stick.
• 36:30
  Cross checked me from behind.
• 36:32
  We've had massive, just brutal fights.
• 36:36
  And.
• 36:39
  And he says, I know Willie.
• 36:44
  And so Willie said, hell yeah.
• 36:46
  So he came up and we're in the hotel thing, and I got to hang out with Willie a lot.
• 36:53
  Never hung out with them before.
• 36:55
  And we were just talking and of course, all these guys are great guys.
• 37:01
  They're all.
• 37:02
  They're all great guys.
• 37:02
  You might hate them when they're on the team.
• 37:04
  I don't like getting cross checked in the back of my neck.
• 37:08
  I don't like the stick in my face.
• 37:09
  I don't like to be punched in the face.
• 37:11
  But they were great guys.
• 37:13
  And we were just reminiscing and laughing and a lot of mutual respect, a tremendous amount.
• 37:23
  And, and it was great.
• 37:24
  But getting to the real point is off the ice.
• 37:27
  It has to be over.
• 37:28
  You can't entertain any thought about it.
• 37:35
  And we're not.
• 37:37
  It's not a gang.
• 37:38
  And then maybe I'll get a buddy and the two of us beat some guy up at a bar.
• 37:41
  I mean, that's just.
• 37:42
  That's.
• 37:43
  That's just not part of the deal,.
• 37:46
  Win, lose or draw after a fight.
• 37:48
  You're sitting in the penalty box.
• 37:50
  The adrenaline is still pumping.
• 37:52
  What are you thinking about?
• 37:59
  Mostly thinking about how tired you are and angry you didn't get in a fight and all that because everything was good.
• 38:08
  All right?
• 38:08
  And you're angry and you know, all you want to do is get back, back out of the ice and go after the guy one more time again.
• 38:16
  And you love to pound him and you know, you slowly calm down in the, the penalty box.
• 38:21
  But there's also tremendous fatigue for me.
• 38:26
  It wiped me out a lot for the rest of the game.
• 38:32
  I'll tell you if I tell him a funny story.
• 38:34
  So I'm in Philadelphia playing against Boston, and I don't know, pucks between my legs, bouncing something.
• 38:42
  Terry O'Reill comes in and just smokes me on right off my feet, on my ass.
• 38:49
  And it was, it was a good clean hit, but harder than I'm willing to take.
• 38:57
  So I get up and he was a lefty and with lefties, and I couldn't, I didn't have a good defense.
• 39:02
  I couldn't grab their arm, pro their fighting arm properly.
• 39:06
  And we had a long, brutal fight and we were throwing big punches, barely missing.
• 39:13
  And then the next.
• 39:14
  And this, we get through this whole fight and you say, you go to the penalty box and what are you thinking?
• 39:20
  First of all, I'm thinking his, his fists came very close to my head.
• 39:25
  And so I'm lucky like that.
• 39:28
  And mostly just trying to summon up the edge.
• 39:30
  So after five minutes, after five minutes you come back and.
• 39:34
  Because I could sit on the bench a while longer, I'm exhausted.
• 39:38
  And the coach figures you've had a five minute rest.
• 39:42
  Other guys been double timing it, so they put you right back on the ice.
• 39:46
  So not too much longer, not too much longer.
• 39:50
  I don't know.
• 39:51
  Pac's balancing in my feet.
• 39:54
  Terry just levels me.
• 39:57
  Same thing.
• 39:58
  Good clean hit too hard for my liking, and I'm not taking that.
• 40:03
  And we're in this next.
• 40:06
  Then you say, how do you get the energy?
• 40:07
  I'm too tired to play the game.
• 40:08
  But you got that rage.
• 40:10
  And he had it too.
• 40:11
  And we're have this long, brutal, brutal, brutal fight.
• 40:15
  So anyway, getting the penalty box and now all I want them to do, I just want.
• 40:22
  If they can get me on a gurney and just wheel me into the dressroom because I just want to sleep.
• 40:27
  I'm absolutely exhausted.
• 40:29
  And you say, I got five bits.
• 40:31
  Well, the five minutes goes like nothing.
• 40:35
  And you come out and what did the lady coach do?
• 40:37
  He puts you on the ice because you've had a five minute rest.
• 40:40
  And I'm too tired to play.
• 40:42
  I'm exhausted, I'm wiped out.
• 40:45
  And there's a TV timeout.
• 40:47
  I'm there and I look down who I'm lining up, going to line up against, and it's Terry O'Reilly.
• 40:52
  And I said, I am in no condition to fight.
• 40:56
  I'm in no condition to fight.
• 40:58
  I'm absolutely exhausted.
• 41:00
  And.
• 41:00
  And I said, he is a maniac.
• 41:04
  Anyway, he is full of energy.
• 41:06
  This.
• 41:06
  I said, I pray to God he's exhausted also.
• 41:10
  I pray to God he's exhausted.
• 41:12
  And in the corner, we had a guy in Philadelphia, they called him Signman.
• 41:17
  And he used to bring these big Manila, 2ft by 3ft, cardboard, and he'd write on them.
• 41:29
  He write on stuff.
• 41:31
  And anyway, we're standing there and he writes.
• 41:35
  He stands up, he holds a sign up and it says, round three.
• 41:42
  Round three.
• 41:43
  And I'm sitting there.
• 41:44
  Holy.
• 41:46
  I said, I hope, I hope he didn't get tired writing at round three.
• 41:50
  I must have been exhausting for him because my two fights were pretty damn exhausting.
• 41:54
  So I, I'm dying.
• 41:56
  And I said, and I said to myself, oh, I just hope, I hope Terry O'Reilly doesn't see the sign and think that this is more.
• 42:05
  And Terry sees the sign, he looks over at me and he's got this grin on his face and he's had enough.
• 42:13
  I've had enough.
• 42:14
  And I wrote in my book, I said at the time, if I had more energy, I would have loved to climb the boards and just pound it on Sideman.
• 42:22
  I've had enough of Terry O'Reilly.
• 42:23
  But if I could pound on Sideman for, for doing something.
• 42:26
  But thanks for volunteering me for that fight.
• 42:28
  And, and then I wrote in the book, I said, after I saw Terry screen at me, Terry probably wants to go over the boys and beat on.
• 42:37
  On Signmen.
• 42:38
  Maybe the two of us could have gone over.
• 42:40
  And so, yeah, rage.
• 42:43
  Rage is huge.
• 42:45
  Getting that energy because they're not all optimal situations.
• 42:50
  And you got to keep going.
• 42:53
  Go back to junior hockey for a moment.
• 42:57
  I'm a huge hockey fan.
• 42:59
  I love the game of hockey.
• 43:01
  I think hockey is just about as good as it gets for a spectator sport, especially when we talk about the playoffs.
• 43:09
  I love watching video of soccer players and basketball players flopping.
• 43:17
  They flop.
• 43:18
  And you know, and then you watch video of hockey players.
• 43:22
  I mean, it's like two Mack trucks running into each Other and the fighting and all that, it's just.
• 43:27
  It's just two completely different cultures.
• 43:34
  You talk about the fear of saying no.
• 43:39
  You paint a very vivid picture of suffering a brutal eye injury in a fight and still being afraid to tell your coach that you were too hurt to play.
• 43:52
  Why was saying no so difficult?
• 43:57
  Well, I think the short answer is you want to be counted on.
• 44:02
  As for the team, you certainly don't want someone else to take your shift.
• 44:08
  And, you know, they shoot the puck 20ft wide of the net to hit someone's ass in the goal, and the next thing is, he's the hero.
• 44:15
  And you're on the bench and you lose your shift.
• 44:18
  And Tom Brady withdrew Bledsoe, right?
• 44:21
  And Bledsoe was hurt and Tom coming.
• 44:23
  So that was in.
• 44:24
  In it, but that, you know, and you know, the coach wants to put you.
• 44:30
  I said no.
• 44:30
  You know, coach, I'm a little.
• 44:32
  Little.
• 44:33
  A little tired, a little fatigued right now.
• 44:35
  Give me a few more minutes.
• 44:37
  You don't say those things, and then you don't say you're hurt.
• 44:41
  And even when I had a concussion, you know, you don't know where you are.
• 44:48
  Are you hurt?
• 44:48
  No, it's just.
• 44:49
  It was so deeply ingrained, and you.
• 44:55
  You.
• 44:58
  You couldn't.
• 44:59
  You couldn't turn it off.
• 45:00
  And.
• 45:00
  And I, I think just about every guy had that, and, you know, oh, you're good to go.
• 45:07
  So you're on the bench, you're exhausted, and they put you on the ice, you go.
• 45:10
  And it was.
• 45:11
  It was.
• 45:14
  And that was, you know, from, from childhood, you know, you.
• 45:18
  That's just the way it was.
• 45:20
  That's just the way.
• 45:21
  Playing sick, playing hurt.
• 45:22
  And, you know, then you talk about the flopping, and I wrote this stupid story in my book, but when I first turned pro, didn't matter how hurt you are, you got off the ice, you did not let the
• 45:35
  other team see you lying down there and hurt.
• 45:37
  And you might crawl off the ice, but you got off the ice and it didn't matter happen.
• 45:44
  You didn't show, you didn't let it go.
• 45:46
  And we're in an exhibition game and playing for Chicago and against Wayne Gretzk.
• 45:52
  And Wayne, apart from he didn't play what we played, he did something else.
• 45:58
  And.
• 46:00
  But he never got.
• 46:03
  He could anticipate.
• 46:04
  He never got in a situation where he got angled into the boards and get run over.
• 46:07
  He was just too smart, too clever, too everything.
• 46:10
  And he always tried.
• 46:11
  And if I got near him, you know, I'd hold him and grab his shirt and try to force him into the boards, and he's peeling away with all his might.
• 46:19
  And, you know, there's only so far you can grab him.
• 46:21
  But this one time in training camp, I don't know what happened.
• 46:26
  I ran him into the boards too hard for no reason, but, you know, that's just what I did.
• 46:32
  And a little bit long later in the game, we're both skating down the ice to their end, and, you know, I know where, you know, you know where everyone is, and you.
• 46:48
  Oh, I didn't know Gretzky was behind me in case the puck came out.
• 46:52
  And he's about 10ft, 15ft behind me, and he charges at me, and he's got a stick up in the air.
• 46:59
  And, you know, this happens quick.
• 47:01
  It's not like you have a whole plan.
• 47:02
  I'm turning around, I'm going, you know, swinging around with my stick, and he gets within five feet of me.
• 47:09
  He falls back, his helmet goes flying, his gloves go flying, his stick goes flying, and he's lying on the ice like he's half dead.
• 47:19
  And I said, this is great.
• 47:20
  I ran over Gretzky earlier, and now their whole team thinks I killed him.
• 47:28
  This is.
• 47:29
  This is going to be bad.
• 47:30
  This is going to be bad.
• 47:33
  And there are other four guys all come at me, and I'm wondering, where's my guys that are gonna help?
• 47:40
  We should have an extra guy.
• 47:41
  Gretzky's lying on the ground.
• 47:43
  Where are my guys?
• 47:44
  But not so four guys coming at me.
• 47:45
  Once I got my stick, and I just go cross check as many guys as I can, and then I can't get my.
• 47:52
  My stick free.
• 47:53
  Like they're, you know, sort of.
• 47:55
  They're holding it or something like that.
• 47:57
  I drop my gloves and I grab and I start swinging because that's four against one.
• 48:02
  I'm desperate, and I'm swinging and swinging and swinging, and I think I've got Kevin low, and I caught him, I think, for a bunch of stitches above his eye.
• 48:12
  And then I must have thrown, I don't know, five punches, ten punches.
• 48:17
  I'm.
• 48:18
  I'm.
• 48:19
  I thought I was just going to get wiped out there, and all of a sudden, I realized I'm the only guy fighting.
• 48:27
  And.
• 48:28
  And, you know, it's sort of like when you're in close and you just know like this.
• 48:31
  It's.
• 48:31
  It's pretty hard.
• 48:32
  Like, you know, I'm not gonna.
• 48:34
  Don't want to stop in case I've got the upper hand.
• 48:37
  Why lose the upper hand and find out the, and then I realized, then I realized that just, I don't know the period of time, but it's, you know, milliseconds.
• 48:46
  I realized I'm the only one fighting.
• 48:49
  They know because now the game has changed.
• 48:51
  Before it was you lie on the, you don't lie on the ice.
• 48:54
  You get off the ice, show your hurt.
• 48:57
  And now the game is flop and draw a two minute penalty.
• 49:04
  So Gretzky knew what he's doing.
• 49:06
  Their whole team knew what they were doing.
• 49:09
  Maybe everyone in the stadium but me knew what they were doing.
• 49:12
  And they're coming after me.
• 49:14
  So they were going to come into me and say, oh yeah, oh yeah, and make it look like a really good thing.
• 49:18
  And then we.
• 49:19
  They get a two minute penalty on the power play.
• 49:20
  Except I didn't.
• 49:22
  So I pounded on Kevin Low and they weren't going to do anything.
• 49:27
  I was the only guy in the fight.
• 49:29
  And I don't know what the penalty minutes ended up, but I got two minute penalty for roughing Wayne Gretzky when I didn't touch him, because that was the game.
• 49:38
  And so the game started changing and the flopping started coming in.
• 49:44
  I found it incredibly annoying.
• 49:48
  Incredibly annoying.
• 49:49
  I found it, I wouldn't say disrespectful.
• 49:52
  I don't know what the right word is, but it wasn't part of my culture.
• 49:56
  And.
• 49:57
  But, you know, if you can take a dive and get a penalty, that could win the game.
• 50:04
  And that's what's happening in soccer.
• 50:06
  You know, in soccer, if you can pretend you're hurt and they get a red card, the red card's the game.
• 50:11
  Imagine, imagine if you can fall in the first minute of play and draw a red card, you've won the game.
• 50:18
  You've won the game.
• 50:19
  And so you can't blame them for trying.
• 50:23
  You know, for them, for them, it's a free, it's a free thing, you know, and, you know, in all the sports, they've tried to, you know, introduce something where there's a consequence to flopping, but there really isn't much.
• 50:40
  You know, Ben, when I look at your stats, you averaged over 200 minutes, penalties and minutes a season.
• 50:48
  And most of your book concentrates on the physicality of your game, the physicality of the NHL.
• 50:58
  And I think I understand why that was the focus of your book.
• 51:05
  But I must say, you were a defenseman and you scored your share of goals outside of the goal you scored after sustaining the concussion.
• 51:21
  You don't spend a lot of time in your book talking about scoring Goals.
• 51:27
  And you scored 98 in your NHL career.
• 51:30
  That's nothing to sneeze at.
• 51:32
  As a defenseman, do you remember your first NHL goal?
• 51:37
  Tell us about it.
• 51:38
  Oh, hell yeah.
• 51:39
  Hell yeah.
• 51:42
  First of all, when I wrote the book, you know, you say, why are you writing the book?
• 51:47
  And I felt, you know, if someone's going to write a book about all the goals they scored, there could be me writing Ben Wilson.
• 51:58
  Let me tell you about all my goals.
• 52:00
  And Wayne Gretzky could write a book about his goals, and his would probably be a better book.
• 52:08
  Way thicker.
• 52:08
  Way thicker.
• 52:09
  You're.
• 52:09
  Wait,.
• 52:10
  Listen, your room's too small for that.
• 52:12
  He.
• 52:12
  Scored a billion goals, and his biggest problem is he probably can only remember, you know, a hundred million of them.
• 52:19
  So I let that go.
• 52:22
  And, and I wrote in the book, if you.
• 52:29
  My feeling is, if you got in a fight, if you drop your gloves, you won't, in the sense that the courage to drop your gloves and just compete and stand up for your team was what counted something.
• 52:42
  One guy obviously, you know, won the fight or some draws in that, but the real credit goes to if you're able to drop your gloves.
• 52:48
  But what I want to write in the book is I want to.
• 52:52
  I call them shout outs to players that I played with.
• 52:59
  And, you know, over time, you remember Wayne Gretzky and Lemieux, and you shouldn't, because they didn't play hockey.
• 53:06
  I have no idea what they're doing, but they certainly didn't play the game we played.
• 53:10
  They should have been suspended.
• 53:12
  And.
• 53:13
  But to realize how good a player is, and just remember, guys were like Billy Barber and Reggie Leach, Kenny Linsman, Tim Kerr.
• 53:27
  I wrote a chapter about him, called him Superman.
• 53:29
  And he was the biggest, strongest.
• 53:32
  Yeah, you couldn't budge that guy.
• 53:33
  You couldn't.
• 53:34
  You.
• 53:34
  You couldn't.
• 53:35
  You couldn't.
• 53:36
  And.
• 53:36
  And he knew how to score and he was fabulous.
• 53:39
  Mark Howe was the best, My best defenseman in the league, in my opinion.
• 53:45
  And you know, I, you know, for a defenseman, I was fast.
• 53:50
  I was fast, but as a sprint, you know, and, you know, 20 laps around the rink, and I was not even average.
• 54:00
  But there's no shift that you do 20 laps around the rink.
• 54:04
  It's.
• 54:05
  It's all out.
• 54:05
  Stop, fast start.
• 54:06
  So I was fortunate like that.
• 54:08
  And then I got Mark Howe's, my room, my teammate, and I start, I would skate beside him.
• 54:18
  And number one, I couldn't believe there's anyone that had that speed, just flat out speed.
• 54:24
  I really wasn't afraid of anyone with flat out speed, you know, racing for the puck.
• 54:31
  And he taught me how to be afraid.
• 54:32
  He was that fast.
• 54:34
  And then he never seemed to get tired.
• 54:39
  He could go and go and go and go.
• 54:43
  And so in practice we're doing these drills and I'm falling behind and falling farther behind.
• 54:49
  Now we're passing everybody and I'm going in practice.
• 54:52
  No one goes flat out in practice, but I am.
• 54:55
  And I'm falling behind them and we're passing everyone and then all of a sudden the whistle go.
• 55:02
  We get like a little break for air and I'd catch up to them again and start it again.
• 55:06
  And I think I wanted to just focus and, and make sure people realized just how good these guys were, how good, you know, Reggie Leaches and Billy Barber shot was.
• 55:20
  And, and then the other thing I wanted to do is sort of like do a little bit behind the scenes stuff.
• 55:28
  Something that I, I, I didn't, I had three girls didn't talk about hockey for 35 years and that, but one of the things that, that I think is important is a story.
• 55:42
  Like, I think if you were flying the wall, if you're flying the wall in the dressing room and we're in the Philadelphia Flyers and you're flying the wall and your job as the fly is tell me from living
• 55:55
  in the dressing room who the superstar is.
• 55:58
  Tell me who the superstar is.
• 56:00
  And the answer is, you can't.
• 56:03
  So when I was 19, I turned pro.
• 56:07
  I walk into the dress room, there's Bobby Clark, there's Bernie Perant, there's Jimmy Watson, there's these guys and come on, they, they're either hall of Famers, superstars and that, and you're in the dressing room and number one is,
• 56:25
  you know, as a rookie, they're giving me, and after the game I had to go get all the defenseman beers, but that was it.
• 56:33
  Other than that, they treat you like you're the superstar with them and you've won the Stanley Cups and, and, and you want to pinch yourself like, am I being punked?
• 56:43
  And, but I can tell you this.
• 56:45
  If, and I, this is extremely important to me.
• 56:48
  If you were a fly on the wall in the Philadelphia dress room, you would never figure out who the superstars were.
• 56:57
  And none of them acted like they were great.
• 57:02
  None of them acted anything.
• 57:06
  It would be, it would be an absolute crapshoot if they had to pick him out.
• 57:11
  They could pick out me after my first game being the, the superstar, future hall of Famer just as easily as you pick out Bobby Clark or whatever, because they, and I think that's a tribute to them.
• 57:23
  Imagine being that great.
• 57:25
  For those years, Bobby Clark had been captain of Team Canada.
• 57:31
  He had won the Hart Trophy most valuable player three times.
• 57:34
  But in the dressing room, you'd never know it.
• 57:37
  I think that's, that's, that's pretty cool and what an impression it made on me.
• 57:45
  But you got to tell me about the first NHL goal he scored.
• 57:47
  Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
• 57:48
  The first goal.
• 57:49
  Okay.
• 57:50
  So anyway, I, I go to my first training camp now in junior hockey.
• 57:57
  I skated six hours a day.
• 57:58
  Everyone else is skating too.
• 58:00
  And, you know, my skills got better.
• 58:03
  I was the first round draft pick.
• 58:05
  And everyone's saying, oh yeah, you're on the team.
• 58:06
  You're on the team.
• 58:07
  Well, you're on the team, unless you're not.
• 58:09
  So we go to training camp and I'm with the rookie camp and the minor league players and everything's going great.
• 58:16
  I'm not in any fights.
• 58:18
  And because everything's going good, I don't have to.
• 58:23
  And I thought maybe I don't fight anymore.
• 58:24
  Maybe, whatever.
• 58:26
  So anyway, we play and you know, you don't know that you're on the team, but I was going out of.
• 58:33
  Fought in 10 times a day to make the team, but I'm playing well enough and I make the team.
• 58:39
  And Jimmy Watson, my defense partner, and the two of us were carrying a lot of ice time.
• 58:47
  And so the second game of the season, we're in Detroit and we're up like 2:1, and there might be.
• 59:00
  I'm making this up.
• 59:01
  And that's why my book says mostly true stories.
• 59:04
  But, you know, it's the best I can remember.
• 59:07
  We're up to one, maybe 30 seconds left in the game and they, the coach puts Jimmy Watson and me on the ice.
• 59:19
  So, you know, my second game, Pro 19, and they put me on the ice.
• 59:26
  That's a pretty big boost of confidence.
• 59:29
  And they have a power play.
• 59:34
  They have a power play.
• 59:36
  And so we just got to try to survive 30 seconds.
• 59:40
  And the puck, their defenseman must have moved in or something like that.
• 59:45
  The puck moved, bounced, I don't know, can't remember how.
• 59:49
  Outside of our end zone, outside the blue line.
• 59:52
  And I looked up and their other defense one is on the other side.
• 59:59
  And I said, I think, you know, my mind, I think I can get the puck, and if I can get the puck, you know, I can skate down the side.
• 1:00:09
  And when they angled me off, I'll just roll it in the corner, and I'll burn up the time.
• 1:00:14
  And so I take off the puck.
• 1:00:17
  Our whole team is just screaming at me, stay back, stay back.
• 1:00:22
  What's been trying to do, Go for a breakaway.
• 1:00:24
  We're already winning.
• 1:00:25
  We're just trying to kill the last 30 seconds.
• 1:00:28
  So they lost it.
• 1:00:29
  They lost it.
• 1:00:30
  And I know they're screaming at me, and at the same time, I think I can get the puck.
• 1:00:35
  And then I said, maybe I should do the smart thing and back off.
• 1:00:39
  Anyway, I jumped it.
• 1:00:41
  Just one of those things.
• 1:00:43
  I got to the puck, and I was planning on just skating down, and when they angled me off, rolling in the corner, and I got to something like their blue line, by the time they're going to angle me
• 1:00:54
  off, and I know they didn't have a power play, they pulled their goaltender under, and it's an empty net.
• 1:01:01
  So I thought, well, instead of dumping the corner, I'll dump it towards the net.
• 1:01:04
  But I'm on my backhand, I'm around the blue line, something like that, and I lift the puck up over the guy stick who's coming after me, and the puck rolled in the net.
• 1:01:14
  And then.
• 1:01:15
  And then all sudden, you know, all sudden, you know, you.
• 1:01:18
  You come back to the bench and everyone.
• 1:01:21
  Everyone's happy for you and all that stuff.
• 1:01:24
  And at the back of the coach's mind, he just.
• 1:01:27
  He just wanted to make sure that he didn't.
• 1:01:32
  I know the difference between trying to.
• 1:01:36
  Trying to score a goal when you're up one.
• 1:01:38
  When you're up one and, and staying back and playing safe.
• 1:01:41
  He just.
• 1:01:41
  He just couldn't hold it in.
• 1:01:42
  And he had to tell me that.
• 1:01:43
  And I knew that.
• 1:01:44
  I knew that.
• 1:01:45
  So, anyway.
• 1:01:46
  Anyway, that was my first goal.
• 1:01:47
  I remember it like yesterday.
• 1:01:49
  And it was just funny because.
• 1:01:54
  Just getting screamed at, going after the puck and.
• 1:01:57
  And because I'm 18, they did.
• 1:01:59
  They didn't know what I knew or they thought.
• 1:02:01
  I just got excited and.
• 1:02:04
  And of course, if it went badly, I'd never play the last minute of a game for the rest of my career with these guys, right?
• 1:02:10
  So it was.
• 1:02:11
  It was good.
• 1:02:11
  It was good.
• 1:02:13
  One other goal I want to ask you about.
• 1:02:15
  You talk about Wayne Gretzky a lot.
• 1:02:17
  You played in two All Star games.
• 1:02:19
  Your first.
• 1:02:20
  Your rookie year, you played in game.
• 1:02:22
  And two years later, you played in an All Star game.
• 1:02:25
  And you also mentioned that in one of those All Star Games, you scored on a give and go with Wayne Gretzky.
• 1:02:32
  Well, I'm sure it's the highlight of Wayne's career.
• 1:02:36
  It's got to be a highlight of your career, though, one of.
• 1:02:39
  Them.
• 1:02:39
  No, I'm just thinking, poor Wayne.
• 1:02:41
  He didn't catch a break.
• 1:02:42
  I thought it'd help him out.
• 1:02:44
  No, you know, what is an honor to be picked.
• 1:02:52
  It was.
• 1:02:52
  Oh, it was a lot of fun because you got the best of the best and the violence went.
• 1:03:00
  So these guys didn't have to worry about getting their head taken off.
• 1:03:04
  And so also, I think you just.
• 1:03:07
  Just play hockey.
• 1:03:08
  It's.
• 1:03:09
  It may be the only game I remember since I was, you know, 14 years old where you could just.
• 1:03:14
  Just play hockey.
• 1:03:15
  And he didn't have to worry about where all the thugs were.
• 1:03:19
  And.
• 1:03:23
  And, yeah, it was fun.
• 1:03:26
  The Gibson gold and the passing was quick.
• 1:03:29
  The anticipation.
• 1:03:30
  Guys are breaking, you know, before you get the puck.
• 1:03:33
  Guys are breaking because they're anticipating it.
• 1:03:36
  It was just an incredible thing.
• 1:03:38
  And we're crossing the blue line, and I did a quick grip and go.
• 1:03:43
  I went behind Gretzky.
• 1:03:46
  And it was one of those plays.
• 1:03:51
  It was clever.
• 1:03:52
  It was great, and everything kind of just worked out.
• 1:03:55
  And the last.
• 1:03:57
  There are two pieces, though, which that are incredibly unique for this give and go to work.
• 1:04:03
  You could try to do another hundred times.
• 1:04:05
  It's just the right time, the right place.
• 1:04:07
  So I got behind.
• 1:04:08
  He got the blue line.
• 1:04:09
  I got behind the defenseman.
• 1:04:11
  But then I'm coming in the net so fast without the puck that.
• 1:04:16
  And if I slow down, then they're going to catch me and all that stuff.
• 1:04:19
  So what happened was you need someone to make a great pass very quickly and get it on your stick, not bouncing in your ankles, not too late or 99 of the time.
• 1:04:34
  They never even see you, you know, and.
• 1:04:38
  But that's Wayne Gretzky.
• 1:04:39
  What does he do?
• 1:04:40
  What a shock.
• 1:04:41
  He got me a great pass as quickly as he could and flat on my stick.
• 1:04:48
  And that's, you know, he just makes it look easy.
• 1:04:51
  So it was.
• 1:04:53
  It was a really gifted.
• 1:04:54
  So all of a sudden, I basically have a breakaway, but I'm so close into the net and, you know, and this is the.
• 1:05:03
  The difficult thing about sports is a lot of the stuff happens.
• 1:05:06
  And how do you explain it?
• 1:05:10
  It's not like, well, I thought this or that.
• 1:05:12
  Your brain processes things so fast and they don't all work out.
• 1:05:18
  And the next thing, I made two moves.
• 1:05:21
  Pop and pop.
• 1:05:22
  The puck in the.
• 1:05:24
  In the top.
• 1:05:25
  In the top corner.
• 1:05:26
  And.
• 1:05:26
  And, you know, I'm.
• 1:05:28
  I'm shocked of.
• 1:05:30
  Of what I did because it's not like, oh, I'm going to do this.
• 1:05:32
  I'm going to fake him this way.
• 1:05:34
  It just happens.
• 1:05:35
  And, and that's why it's very difficult to explain what happened.
• 1:05:40
  Pucks in the net and said, holy, I scored a goal in an All Star game and let me quit right now.
• 1:05:47
  And, and Wayne Gretzky must have been thankful that I could carry him and make him look good.
• 1:05:54
  And, you know, I'm still waiting for his letter.
• 1:05:57
  Says, hey, dear want to thank you for making me look good once.
• 1:06:01
  I needed.
• 1:06:02
  I needed the break.
• 1:06:03
  I'm always.
• 1:06:03
  I'll forever in your debt.
• 1:06:05
  So.
• 1:06:06
  But it, it was fun.
• 1:06:07
  It, it was fun not to.
• 1:06:08
  To play a game and not have to and be in.
• 1:06:11
  In fear of all the crazies being run over.
• 1:06:16
  The game was fast.
• 1:06:17
  The players were all fast.
• 1:06:18
  The gives and goes, the, you know, the passing was good.
• 1:06:21
  It was crisp.
• 1:06:23
  And you know, one of the things that's.
• 1:06:25
  I felt is that better players and it's subtle, they'll.
• 1:06:31
  They'll pass you the puck a little earlier, it's a little harder, it's flatter, it's on your stick.
• 1:06:39
  It's just a, a better pass.
• 1:06:40
  So if you get up, if.
• 1:06:41
  Not only do they anticipate and get you the puck early, it's faster.
• 1:06:46
  So he gets a little, you know, a little early.
• 1:06:48
  And these are all, you know, milliseconds types of thing.
• 1:06:51
  And, and in a position where you can do something with it and good players, they do it and, and, and then you have a chance to do something with the puck and it's.
• 1:07:06
  It looks like a little thing, but it's in the whole game, it's.
• 1:07:10
  It's hugely different.
• 1:07:12
  You know, there's lots of times when your defense partner is going to pass you the puck and he's bumbling it and pounding on it, and by the time he passes the puck, your guy anticipates that and he's coming
• 1:07:24
  after you.
• 1:07:25
  And the next thing is they put a soft pass that bounces and by the time it hits your skates because it's a lousy pass, you get run over.
• 1:07:34
  Well, I don't care how good you are, you're not doing too much and you get a good partner and they're going to get you the puck quickly when you can do something with it.
• 1:07:44
  And all these guys on the All Star Game, they were good.
• 1:07:48
  They were good and it was a blast.
• 1:07:51
  Awesome.
• 1:07:52
  Well, Ben, this has been such a fun hour.
• 1:07:56
  I mean, there's so much more that we could Talk about, we didn't really even get into the fact that you did play in the Stanley cup final.
• 1:08:03
  You were part of the Flyers, great team that went 35 games without a loss.
• 1:08:09
  We didn't get into Chicago.
• 1:08:11
  Steve Larmore, Denny Savard.
• 1:08:13
  There is so much more in your book.
• 1:08:15
  It is really, it's a fun book to read and I encourage everybody to get a copy of Ben Wilson's Gloves Off.
• 1:08:24
  Mostly true stories from my life in hockey.
• 1:08:28
  Ben Wilson, thank you so much for joining me on Sports Forgotten Heroes.
• 1:08:34
  Well, I don't know about the Forgotten heroes.
• 1:08:37
  My kids still love me.
• 1:08:38
  But listen, it's been a pleasure.
• 1:08:40
  I've had an absolute blast.
• 1:08:41
  I hope you have me back.
• 1:08:42
  Oh, I didn't get to show you.
• 1:08:43
  My, my wife made me put this shirt on.
• 1:08:46
  How's.
• 1:08:47
  That?
• 1:08:48
  One of my daughters, one of my daughters made this for me.
• 1:08:50
  I'm like a marketing machine.
• 1:08:52
  Great.
• 1:08:53
  That's awesome.
• 1:08:53
  Good for you, man.
• 1:08:54
  If you can tell your whole audience, buy my book.
• 1:08:58
  I don't care if they read it, just buy the goddamn book.
• 1:09:01
  Okay?
• 1:09:02
  You got it.
• 1:09:05
  Get me back on the show.
• 1:09:06
  Okay?
• 1:09:06
  I will.
• 1:09:07
  Absolutely will.
• 1:09:10
  For his career, Ben Wilson scored 98 goals and added 261 assists.
• 1:09:16
  But it was the physical aspect to his game that made a difference as he racked up 1,480 minutes in penalties for an average of 202 a season during his nine year career.
• 1:09:28
  A two time All Star, Ben also lit the lamp 12 times in 67 playoff games while accumulating another 194 minutes in penalties.
• 1:09:41
  Thanks again to Ben for joining me on Sports Forgotten Heroes and thanks to all of you for tuning in and I'll see you next time on Sports Forgotten Heroes.