Latest / Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell / Will My Kids Be OK After Divorce? A child psychologist's perspective

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Will My Kids Be OK After Divorce? A child psychologist's perspective · Reflect Reclaim & Liberate - with Sallyanne Hartnell

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate, the podcast.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Finding the space for all of you in life and love.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm your host, Sally Ann Hartnell, and this podcast is for anyone wanting to reclaim and liberate themselves in their relationships and their life.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_01: Wherever you are on your relationship journey, these conversations meet you right there.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: In soulful, deeply supportive DNMs with me and interviews with other gorgeous humans.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: Moving you from where you are to where you most want to be.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: A life and love completely aligned with your deepest desires to have it all on your own terms.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: If you're seeking a relationship and a life that lights up all of you, you're in the right place.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also like to acknowledge that this podcast is recorded on the traditional lands of the Woratri people and pay my respects to elders past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge them as the original storytellers of this land.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: Today I'm welcoming Claire Rowe to the podcast.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: Claire is a leading child psychologist and director of Roe and Associates, a private psychology clinic in Sydney, Australia, with an expert team that works with children and families.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: Claire has worked with separating families for the last 15 years and specializes in high conflict matters in the family court.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: She appears as an expert witness in the court, preparing and prepares family reports.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_01: In 2023, she launched the Family Report Writers Network to provide collaborative peer support to report writer colleagues in an industry that is largely unregulated.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_01: In 2021, after years of helping divorcing parents, Claire struggled with the sudden end of her own marriage with two young children and three stepchildren.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Her journey in processing this loss, adjusting to being a single, middle-aged mum and sharing the time with her young children is ongoing but has given her enormous insight and even more respect for her clients who come to see her experiencing the same.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Claire writes regularly for the Australian newspaper and Sky News Online and is featured regularly on TV as a commentator in all things children, family, and mental health.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: She will also be launching her own podcast on the couch with Claire in April 2024.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a real privilege to have Claire on the podcast, and this is a conversation that I'm sure you will enjoy.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Also launching in 2024 is my brand new group coaching experience, Decide and Thrive.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's for women or anybody identifying as female who is feeling challenged or stuck in their relationship, needing to make hard decisions, navigating separation, moving through divorce.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: It is a cocoon.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: It will wrap you up and give you all the tools and the emotional and practical support to make hard decisions, to thrive through them and beyond, whether that be separation, divorce, or renegotiating the relationship that you're currently in.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: If that is something that you're interested in exploring, there's a link in the show notes to either sign up for the group programme or book an intro call with me so we can discuss options.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would love to welcome and support you in Decide and Thrive.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: But for now, I share with you my conversation with Claire Rowe.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: Hi Claire, welcome to the podcast.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, thanks so much for having me.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: You are so very welcome.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, let's just launch right in.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to ask you first, from the perspective of a child psychologist, what do you think kids most need from their parents when parents are separating or divorcing?
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it sounds like a strange answer, but I think kids need parents.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: They need parents.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: And by that I mean they need people in charge and they need to know that people are still steering the ship, so to speak, even if those parents feel like they're not.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so if you've gone through a divorce or you're going through a separation, uh, you literally feel uh that the floor has been taken away from underneath you when there's uncertainty and everything that you had planned for the next 10 years, at least of your life and the dreams and everything that was going to unfold is gone.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, the biggest difficulty initially for people is that uncertainty.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if you if you take that and then put that into a little child's mind, it's trying to alleviate as much as you can uh uncertainty.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so they need calm parents who say to them, This is what's going to happen.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's not dismissive of emotion, but this is why, for example, I would advise parents do not tell children you're separating until there is a plan.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_00: Until you know the details of this is when it's going to happen.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: And dad's going to move into this place.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how, you know, we're going to see each other.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what is going to happen, rather than this is going to happen at some time.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we're not really sure when, but we'll let you know.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's like they need people still steering the ship and they need to look to you and say, well, this is really uncertain.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: But look, mum and dad seem pretty sure, and and and they're explaining it in what's going to happen, and we can still trust in them.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very hard when you don't feel that yourself.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: When you feel uncertain, like the floors just being or the rugs being pulled under out from underneath you, it's really hard to find your own solid space so that you can then offer that to your children.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: But so important, right?
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why I use the term fake a lot, to be honest, with with clients and parents I work with.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_00: I say, now, in that moment in time, you are going to have to fake that everything will be okay, even if you don't believe that.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there are certain times, I make no apologies for that, in other forms of our parenting, that we do that with our children.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't expose them to the reality of how we feel in that moment because it's not appropriate.
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_00: We have friends for that, we have family for that.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're going to have to at that point.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um that's not to also say, oh, it's going to be great and it's going to be, you know, all fun and rainbows.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's dismissive.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, no, this is going to be a difficult period, and that's okay.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay if we're struggling, and it's okay if we're a bit upset.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: But mom and dad are organizing it and things will be okay, and we're going to get through this.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they need to hear that reassurance that you're still at the helm of the ship.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: And I talk about sharing with kids in an age and stage appropriate way.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, what's okay to share with an eight-year-old is maybe not okay to share with a five-year-old.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: What's okay to share with a 16-year-old might not be okay to share with a 12-year-old.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also not just a specific age.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's looking at your kids and talk and thinking about their stage of development and where they're at and what they, what they have capacity to hold and what they need to know and what's actually adult stuff and they don't need to know it.
• 7:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think it even sometimes comes down to whether they're a child or an adult, but rather that the role that they play as being your child and they'll always be your child.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, you know, there are certain ways that you would deal with telling your child at 25 years old that you're separating.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it even then appropriate to let them into every detail?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not, because they have a uh a role in your life that will always be your child.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And you there's that hierarchy that's there, or there's that dynamic that's there that they need, particularly, of course, when they are a developmentally a child.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but figuratively, I would argue that they'll always be your child.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so there will always be a different way that you talk to them about the separation compared to your therapist or your girlfriend.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I like that you touched on older adult children still being our children.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's also, I think, about making sure that they have a free and easy relationship.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: Free and easy, that's probably not the right word, but um a good, solid relationship with both parents, even though you're separating.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I think oversharing with a child may, you know, impact that, impact the capacity to have a relationship that's open and decent with both parents.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they have that, um, it's just giving them that space and permission to uh is it free and easy, but you know, it's it's it's space and permission to pursue that relationship.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: And at 25 or 30 years old, that, you know, that relationship is already established.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that relationship is different to the relationship that you have with your ex-partner.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: They have a different dynamic, a different way of relating to them, as they should.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: And to interrupt that uh would be a burden on them, wouldn't be fair to them, and would be detrimental to them.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as I say to parents in my room, because of the great parent that you are, you're not going to do that to them.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you're going to allow them to continue in that.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: And even, you know, I've spoken to friends of mine who've found out details about parent separations at 30, 40 years old, and it has deeply fractured relationships and troubled them because a parent has overexposed them.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't, I don't think that that vulnerability or that um you know risk necessarily changes as children grow up.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a really good point.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Probably one I hadn't fully explored or thought about, because most of my clients have younger children.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Let me ask you how how as parents we can support our kids through separation, particularly those early phases, separation, divorce, if their other parent is making it a little tricky or challenging.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps the other parents are oversharing, perhaps there's conflict, or you know, there are situations where it's not all rainbows and amicable separation.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: You and I both know that.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, what is the best way a parent can support a child when that's going on?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's so difficult because I think you know, the parents who come and see me and work with me, you know, the frustration levels that they can see what's happening to their child.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if if they do come to me in a position, well, if only the other parent would stop doing that.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: If only, you know, I can't protect my child anymore.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't stop them from doing these behaviors.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that's an awful position to be in.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they need to go through that emotion of feeling, I suppose, helpless to a degree.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: But then I think it comes full circle, and in the end, they have to come to an acceptance that you can only control what happens in your household now.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's very difficult, long journey, I think, to get to that for some people.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, some people easier than others.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: But to say, if my other parent badmouths me or keeps the kids up late, or keeps them up on Xbox feeding the McDonald's, or you know, these things aren't illegal and a court or the law can't enforce good parenting because there's many families we could go into and try and do that with intact or something.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: But that's that's absolutely we're gonna go take off kids from people uh doing some of those behaviors.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it does come to a point full circle where parents have to come to a point to accept I cannot control what happens in that other parent's household.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so by doing that, we're conserving your energy and your emotional energy and your time in pursuing sometimes a change there.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, pursue to a degree, invite them to, you know, some type of professional who can work with you with both of you, invite them somewhere where we can have dialogue, try and have communication.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not saying to give up straight away, but there is a point with some clients where I say, you know, we're ex we're expending a lot of energy here trying to change the other household.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: And we need to concentrate on the time that you have the children.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the first step.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think the second step is when children come into your care and they've said, you know, mom said this, or dad said you have to buy the school shoes this week, or you know, mom said that you're so it's very, very easy.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I and I've been there and I fully appreciate to not go straight into factual correcting for those children of, oh, that's not true.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: Let me show you the receipt from last year, right?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_00: I bought the school shoes last year, so it's dad's turn this year.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very hard not to get intensive mode, and that doesn't actually help the child.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: What the child then ends up feeling and thinking is right, well, mom says this and dad says this, and I don't know.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm stuck in the middle, I'm stuck in the middle, and no one has actually recognized my experience.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: So whilst parents look at me like that's not going to help my child at all, I do tell them the very first step, if and and maybe the only step, is to actually rise above the day-to-day minutiae of the facts of what this person said and that's not true, and he's the proof.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: But rather just to how do you think that would make your child feel?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: And just reflect that back to them.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, what I'm teaching them to do is actually therapy and be therapists for their children, because that's what therapists do.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so if I can teach parents to do that and to take a moment and look at their child and say, goodness, oh, that must have been really confusing when they said that to you, to think that I wouldn't buy you something or to think that I've done the wrong thing.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: That must have been awful to hear that.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that must be really hard to work out what's going on between mom and dad right now.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, that must be really um, that must make you feel angry, does it?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay, I can see how that's the case.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you need to provide some statement to say, you know what, love, mum and dad will work the school shoes out.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's not for you to work out, we'll work it out.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm really glad that you could tell me how that made you feel.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, parents look at me like, that's not gonna cut it.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: Like, that's not enough.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: They want to fix it.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's not enough for kids to hear that.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they try it.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: And surprisingly, they come back and say the school shoes weren't mentioned again.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: Or that that particular issue of that day, the kid kind of forgot about it.
• 15:27
  unknown: Yeah.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we had a hug and we moved on.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it goes it goes back to um not overshare, you know, we were talking about before, not oversharing the details of the separation divorce with the child.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: That's part of it too.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: They don't need to know who bought the school shoes last year and how much money, you know, those sorts of things, they don't need to know it.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So if you can take it off the child by reflecting back, oh, that must be hard to hear, or that must have been confusing.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then don't worry about it, mum and dad will sort that.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great thing.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's very hard.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's very hard when one side has already exposed them to, you know, half the information or the incorrect information, or, you know, it's all well and good when you've got two parents who agree to say, we won't be talking about any of those issues because they're not appropriate.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: What do you do in the situation?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the other side is.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So it's very hard for people as human beings, human nature, not to defend yourself, particularly to your child.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think parents say to me, Well, that's all well and good.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_00: I can validate their emotions and they can feel better and we can have a hug.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: But is my child walking away then still with the belief that I don't provide for them?
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: I totally get that.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: I totally get, but the reality is that they don't.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: They then move on.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: And in hindsight, actually, all you're doing is actually providing a deeper, stronger connection to yourself with your child and a safe space that they know that you get it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, someone's recognized.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, you know, they get it, they understand this is hard for me.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, mom, or thanks, dad.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_01: Perfect.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: Going on from that, how about when a child perhaps doesn't want to spend time with their other parent?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if they're like they're really insistent about it, and maybe even, you know, we touched on it before, you know, as a parent what's going on in the other parent in the other household isn't really healthy or isn't appropriate at times, um, maybe not really in the best interest of your child to be spending time in that environment, but you know, court orders dictate that they must.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: What's the best way to navigate that as a parent?
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, in this area, that's a huge question.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge question.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and um, you know, I'll I'll say my disclaimer that, you know, individual circumstances aside here, and and perhaps safety aside, because I suppose if you've got serious concerns for the safety of your child and the other household, that does require some professional advice.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you need you need to go and get some professional advice from a very good family lawyer to discuss your concerns there.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but often, as you said, you know, there are just many circumstances where children will just say, oh, you know, but mum gets angry or dad gets angry, or I don't like going there because of those rules, or I don't like going there because they make me share a room.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Or, and it look for that child, that's a legitimate um, you know, reason, or or you think, well, I get it.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you go in there and there's three other half siblings, or there's the, you know, you you're kind of lost in that household, or for whatever reason you can empathize with them.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yet, as you said, you know, this is the parenting arrangement we've got in place, court-ordered or not.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, if it's if it's court orders, those are federal court orders that you you need to stick to.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, even as a parenting arrangement, um, you know, I get parents to use a language to children that, you know, well, at the moment, mum and dad, we've decided on this arrangement at the moment.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: It does need to, and this is hard for parents to hear, always come back to the fact that mum and dad have agreed on this, but we will hear your concerns.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I advise parents to say that even if it's court-ordered and they don't agree with it.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a hard pill to swallow.
• 19:28
  unknown: Yeah.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: But even, you know, if you've got a parent, if you can imagine saying now, mommy doesn't really want you to go, but the judge said you have to, that's a huge burden to put on a child because not only do they not want to go to that household, but they are now in that household imagining their mother upset and pining after them as well.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a huge load.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's a huge load, and it's not helping them at all.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's not helping them to put that on them.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: So no matter what the situation, I always get parents to say, look, at the moment, mom and dad have this arrangement.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Even if you don't say we've agreed, we have this agreement.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: Mom and dad is this arrangement.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: Mum and dad have this arrangement.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: We have this arrangement at the moment.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: At the moment, that's what we're doing.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: Now, tell me your concerns, and mom and dad will listen to those and we'll we'll try and chat about that and see what we can do.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Even if that chatting is through legal letters, they don't need to know that.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: Technically, you're talking, you're just through a lawyer.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: I want to give the kids the illusion that you are still parenting them together, even if you're not.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think you can do that.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think even if you don't have direct communication with your other parent, you can tell particularly young kids, okay, all right, well, mum and dad will talk about that and we'll see what we can do and and hear your concerns.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but often it is about just hearing them and saying, you know, what can we do in trying to communicate those to the other household?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um controlling or interfering.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: That's another, you know, that's a whole other can of worms.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: When you're trying to have a dialogue with an with another parent, your other parent, the other parent, I should say, and you know, they're accusing you of coming across as interfering or absolutely.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's very, very difficult.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's very nuanced.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you could use a third party to do that, it's good.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, things like parenting coordination, I am in big support of.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are there are people out there, professionals, that can sit down with both of you.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and ultimately we can all talk about the ideal situation.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: And the ideal scenario is that you have a parent where you text and say, Hey, our daughter's just raised a couple of concerns for us or or things she's unhappy about.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Can we meet and have a coffee and go through them?
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, absolutely.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear about what she's worried about.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, those people probably exist, but you and I don't see those people.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I always like when I come across them.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: I think, wow.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's great.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but yes, uh, you know, often the response from the other parent is dismissive of, well, they don't tell me that.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't see those problems.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's only complaining to you in your household.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Don't know what's going on there.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um so you try, but then at some point, um, you know, you know, you you can't change, it comes back to that acceptance, you can't change what's happening in the other household, right?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and at some point, you know, there is an element of trying to reflect on what concerns your children are voicing, and saying, you know, whilst I can have empathy that you don't like that you share a room with your two step siblings, okay, but you can do it.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_00: You can do it, you can do hard things.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, we don't want to make this the end of the world.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: You get to share a room there, and then you get to come to back to my place and get your own room, and you get the best of both worlds.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you you you don't want to feed in too much, depending on what the concerns are.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: As I said, safety aside, that the child then gets the impression that they can come to you with every tiny little complaint in dad's house, because I'm sure there's some for your house as well.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, that you, you know, and I always say that to my own kids.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: I say, well, hang on a second.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_00: I can I nag you in the mornings, I make you clean your room, I make you make your bed.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I was screaming at you yesterday.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, dad shouted at you, you know, what did you do?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, um, they they still need to see that there's no conquer and divide within reason here.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and one of the things I tell parents actually, it's kind of connected to this, is uh if that child came to you with that complaint about the other parent and you were still married, what would you do?
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: What would you do?
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if they came up to you and said, Oh, Mum screamed at me, what would you do?
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they said, Well, I'd probably either say to him, What happened?
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: or I'd text mum or call out down the hallway at home, hey, what happened?
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd ask the other parent, what did he do?
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Why just scream at him, what happened?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'd probably then end up backing up the other parents.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes we shouldn't be viewing how we approach these situations in a in a whole different light.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have to come back to, well, if we were together as parents, what would I do with this complaint?
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I love that.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good reminder that you're actually both still parents.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And you've got this person or these little people, I shouldn't say little people, younger people, um, moving between the two of you.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, ideal world, ideal scenario.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody's got the best interests of their children at top of mind at every moment.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: But um Yeah, if you can have faith in your other parent, in the other parent, and that they are doing a good enough job or the best job that they're capable of doing, um, that's great.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Not always, not always the case, as we know, but um I guess that's the ideal, right?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: And even even if you, you know, the I you can't reach that ideal so that the pet the the children see an outward display from both of you of solidarity to a degree, not completely, but to a degree, you can create that illusion for the child and you can fake it for the child to a degree.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, dad and I will talk about that.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I will raise that with mum.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_01: I will raise that with dad.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can create the illusion to a degree that you are parenting together, even if you're not, and parents think, is that lying to the children?
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Is that no, it's creating safety psychologically for them.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a really important thing to um to think about and focus on as a parent.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Creating that emotional psychological safety for the child, even if you are building an illusion around some things that they perhaps don't need to know in great detail.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and if you think about it as an intact family, I like always coming back to that too, in a comparison to intact families or families that live together, seem intact.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and and you know, once or twice in my career I've been presented with a family who have no intention to separate.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're a family living together.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: And yet there is this huge divide between the parents.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: I remember one family in particular, and this child was really struggling because there was this huge divide and conquer between the parents, and they were going between each of them with different messages.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a bizarre situation to see because many of the hallmarks of difficulty with separated families were happening in that intact family.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: And it stood out so badly as just this awful environment for that child to live in.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it stood out so much because the parents were literally under the same roof.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it's no different for when there's two homes.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you wouldn't expect there to be that uh division between you if you were together, and so there shouldn't be when you're apart.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the next thing I wanted to ask you is uh about two homes.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: How on a practical and emotional level do we best support uh children moving between two homes, particularly when it's new to them and it's new to us?
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, this is going to be age-dependent to a degree.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: But my thoughts is that you know if we're talking about kids in, well, from any age really, from young children up to even high school children, um, but certainly in that primary school period, that I don't think that they should be given a lot of choice or control around those parenting arrangements.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Now, that's not to say that we don't listen to them in what their preference is.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: I can listen to my child's preference on a lot of things and say, okay, well, I'll ask you what your opinion is, and then I will go make the decision.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_00: What would you like for dinner?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'll listen to it, but that doesn't mean we're having Nutella pizza every night.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I'll listen, but that doesn't mean that they're given choice.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they need to know that because long term, actually, that's comforting to them.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: I've worked with many children who, through a long protracted uh court case, have in the end been given what they have been requesting for a number of years, which is I want choice and control.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they've returned to me in six months and said, please can someone take the choice back?
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's Pandora's box.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_00: They don't, they'll ask for it, but they don't want it then.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_00: So the other thing is I think that arrangements of spending time with the children, as I said before, should be made prior to having conversations with them and should be implemented as soon as possible.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_00: So in a very cliche typical situation, and I know this doesn't happen all the time, but if a father is leaving physically the family home, we want to make sure that there are plans there to get him set up as quickly as possible with everything he needs for the children.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on the children's age, I do like including them with that.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you can have a 10-year-old and say, hey, we're going to Kmart, we're going to Smiggle, and you're going to set your room up.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we did that actually when we separated.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: So get the bare basics, but if they want to pick some awesome, you know, tween things from Kmart to decorate their room with, great.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: I don't like kids packing bags going between houses.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I know kids who pack a bag literally to go between for things that can be duplicated at the other household.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Now, as kids get older, I appreciate there are laptops, there are devices, there are particular favorite items of clothing, there are things that school bags, there are things that go back and forth.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm talking about a bag of weekend clothes with the toothbrush, do not need to be packed because a kid will feel like they don't belong at that other house, that they're on the move, that they're transient.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: I want from the very beginning, and I love when parents come to me with this question prior to separating, because I can get in there now and set this up right.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: I say, you know, you need to spend that money or whatever it takes to go to Kmart and get them set up.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: Your 12-year-old daughter likes her facial cleansers or whatever in the bathroom.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: You go buy that and you put it in your house.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: So she's not packing it at mum's.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So agree, agree, agree.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: As much as you can duplicate all of those things so that what they're shifting, what they have to shift is minimized.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Minimized, yeah.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's just an awful picture, isn't it?
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Mental picture to see these kids walking around with literally like suitcases or bags on their back.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want them to be able to open the door of that other house and go, this is my other home.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: And it won't feel like that initially.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: I get that.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_00: But over time, that this is my home, I can flop on the couch, I can kick my shoes off.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: I've got my stuff here.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, that alarm clock or that whatever I have at mum's house that I love.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna go buy the same one and put it in, you know, if that's what you want.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so they really feel like that's their space.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can invite my friends over.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: I belong here.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't dad's new apartment I'm visiting that feels a bit sterile.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um I talk too about um my my home with mum, my home with dad, or my home with, you know, mum Claire, my home with mum Sal.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I talk about that as well.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it is really important to have that sense of belonging, that it's not dad's house, mum's house.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: That language, I think it's not dad's time, mum's time.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: That just drives me mental too.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and and and and that does take adults to slowly introducing that language because I I get it.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: If they if you're in a family home and say, you know, typically if mom stays there, that is their home.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's their home, and then I'm going to dad's place.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it does take mum in that instance to change that language to say, you know, your other home, that's your home, love.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's your other home with dad.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what you get to now.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: And aren't you lucky?
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: You get two.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and as I said, parenting arrangements are agreed beforehand, and they do, you know, they are implemented, I think, as quickly as possible that that home other home is set up.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I worry about families who say, well, we're just gonna give them a couple of months even to adjust to the separation first, and then they're gonna slowly start to see if they want to spend time at dad's house.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: And no, no, no, no.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a parental decision.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: This is what's happening, this is the day it's happening, this is how it's gonna happen.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_00: Dad's gonna take you to Kmart, or you know, depending on how amicable you are, you go together.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and and from next weekend, we're gonna, this is this is the times you're gonna spend with dad at at your your other home now.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's pushback from the children, it's like, well, this is new to dad and I as well.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the so I'm using this example as a female here, so I'm generally talking about dad as yeah, but it could be either.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: But obviously, you know, this is what dad and I are gonna implement initially, and we're gonna see how that works, and we'll involve, you know, how you feel about that, and then we will have discussions, and dad and I may change that in the future, but that's what we're doing at the moment, yeah.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and in that very calm, uh authoritative parental voice, they can push back.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to do it.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm hearing you, I understand that, but this is what we're gonna do.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um and and they they will appreciate that.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: They will.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and it's like depending on the brings back that um sense of safety that we talked about right at the very beginning.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: You know, when everything else feels uncertain and unsafe, not unsafe, uncertain and new for unpredictable.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: Unpredictable.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's the word I was looking for.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: Unpredictability is certainty.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: This is what's happening, and and we're gonna try it for a period of time and then we'll have another discussion about it.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: 100%.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And and just like everything else, when I say, right, well, you know, I've uh paid for the karate lesson, so you're gonna do this for the rest of the term.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know you want to quit, but you're gonna do it for the rest of the term, and then we will talk.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: And they stomp off to their room, oh, and they go assault because I didn't get their way.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what you do as parents.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_01: I want to shift the conversation a little bit, and I'm mindful of time, because you, and I think you and I could talk for hours, but I want to shift this conversation.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to ask you about report writing.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because as a psychologist, I know you write court reports, you appear as an expert witness, and from a client perspective, from a family perspective, that can seem pretty overwhelming, terrifying.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I wondered if you could just explain the court report writing process from a you know, for a client.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just I guess just a lead through how how it works, why it's needed.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_00: So once you the court process kicks off, and and that involves someone making an application to the family court, and then um there's a respondent, and and then it's kind of I say to parents, you've got your ticket and you're on the you're on the carousel, so to speak.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I I think, you know, I think parents do need a little bit more kind of overview information of here's what's gonna happen and here's how it's going to run.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um they need to parent to come in over the top of the we're gonna create safety for you and certainty, this is what's gonna happen.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why a good family lawyer is worth their waiting gold, because that's what they will do.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: They will sit you down and say, you know, take the reins, so to speak.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so once you're in that process, the the process of family court litigation is a series of mentions and interim hearings to see if we can um, I suppose, settle your matter, but you know, help to a degree so that things can be um ended out of court.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um now that might be a series of things.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: It might be directing you to go get some therapy, it might be directing um to go get what's called a family report done.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: So a family report is essentially when uh two parents are presenting to the court with often different narratives, and that's you know, you could say 100% of the cases that come, and it's a little bit of a he said, she said.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: There are questions there over what is most appropriate for the children, uh, both with the amount of time they spend with parents, but also things like what school they go to, education, religion, uh, whether they should be allowed to be taken overseas on holidays, whether they should be allowed to move out of the capital city they currently live in.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: So there is some type of debate or some kind of question that the parents, topic that the parents are disagreeing on, and they've read the parents' affidavits, we've sat down for multiple mediations, and we've reached a point where no, we are still disagreeing.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: The family court will then want what they call expert evidence, and that means someone who is uh experienced, trained, qualified in uh child psychology, family psychology, child development uh to come in and speak with the family members and perform some type of an assessment on the situation, prepare a report for the court uh that is then used in multiple ways by the court.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So in that process, uh parents might be directed by their lawyers or the court to say we're going to get a family report done.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there are multiple ways to then be appointed someone or choose or select someone.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this person is usually a psychologist, a psychiatrist, or a highly experienced social worker.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there are varying degrees of uh process or or methodology within that, and that's sometimes a bit of an issue in this area.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: But, you know, myself, I'm an expert report writer.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I would spend three days with the family.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: I read all the affidavit material, I get access to subpoena documents, I call therapists, I call pediatricians, I call schools.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I really have open slather to investigate and get information from as many sources as I want.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I might do things like some personality assessments, mental health assessments on the parents.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And then I prepare a report that gives my opinion as a professional on a way forward for these parents.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, these reports are not the be-all and end all.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: They're not, you know, they're not a make and break for your case.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And I know this is it's very nerve-wracking.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: I uh, you know, I interview parents all the time for this.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: And then I say to them, the first thing I say when they sit down is I say, I get it.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're here in front of a stranger.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: How do you communicate your whole life and your children's best interests to me in one shot?
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna determine what's gonna happen to your kids.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: I get it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not gonna determine that's for a court or for yourselves.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm here to try and assist.
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I get it.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm trying to say.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's a huge deal.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they are not the be-all and end all, and and they can be used very, very constructively by parents once that report is released to have a read of that.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: And when you get a good report, they're they're fantastic because we've got mom's opinion and dad's opinion.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: And here we have an independent expert having a look at everyone and saying, well, this is what I think.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: And can we then use that report to sit down and do a more constructive mediation?
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_00: And and that's when they really come into play.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then, of course, if you can't, they will be used um as a piece of evidence in a final hearing by a by a judge to make their decision.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_00: But prior to that, a lot of family reports are used very well um to be able to settle cases and be able to assist families moving forward.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And help, it does.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um and how as parents can we best prepare ourselves and our children for the process when a court has required a family report?
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I get this question a lot, and I'm not sure what other colleagues would say, but my very basic answer is I don't want people preparing for the family reports.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_00: I thought you might say that.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: I was hoping you would say that.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_02: Don't prepare.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Just um because there's nothing to prepare about.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is, you know, my process is sitting down with people for a couple of hours initially.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: I then have follow-up phone calls and meetings.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna let any stone unturned if people want to walk away from that meeting and say, oh, I forgot to tell her this, or I don't think I presented this quite well enough.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: I say to them, and you send me an email, these this process goes on for a number of weeks.
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_00: We can meet again, I'll talk to you again.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: And really, I'm just getting to the heart of your experience, your journey, how we have ended up in a position now that you require my services and we are before a court.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and talking frankly and honestly about your feelings about the situation and your children.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: But lawyers probably probably disagree with me and certainly disagree in preparation for cross-examination.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_00: But I certainly don't think that there is preparation for a family report beyond getting your head around what the report will be used for, uh, the process in which you're going to be interviewed, just making sure that you understand the implications of all of that.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then as far as the content, you need to just answer the questions honestly and how you feel.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, bringing children in is that there requires an explanation.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I usually, well, I always meet parents first before I meet the child.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I say to them now, you're gonna bring in your children tomorrow to speak with me.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'd like you to tell them is, Mom and Dad, again, I don't care whether it's five years of litigation, three family reports, and independence children's lawyer at, you know, the highest conflict case, but you're gonna say, Mom and dad are going, I've been to meet this lady called Claire.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: And Claire's meeting with all of the family members, and she's helping mom and dad be able to make some decisions about you.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: Because by the time you get to a family report, kids know you don't get on, right?
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_00: They know there are things you disagree about.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_01: Even even in an amicable situation like mine, with kids who are 21 and 19, they know, they know we don't agree.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: We're divorced for reasons, right?
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: So kids, yeah, kids know.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: I agree.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: But say to them, you know, so we need some help.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I talk to kids, either in I I still offer therapy to some kids and um certainly when I interview kids, some kids already know about the word court.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they could be six years old and oh yes, my parents are in court.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: So what do you know about court?
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And the way I frame court for them, who already seem to have some awareness over it, is you know, course court is actually a really good place.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And they look at me like, really?
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Because mum seems a bit stressed when she goes there.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you know, court is actually a place where parents come together and there are other adults there to help them talk to each other.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: Because your parents may not like each other, but they need to keep being your parents and make decisions.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: And when they're left by themselves, they fight.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the six-year-old looks at me and goes, Yeah, I know it's really bad.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: Because they know, they know.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't hide that, but I say, you know, court is a place where they all go in and they sit down.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: There are other adults there.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, lawyers, but I don't use the word lawyers to a six-year-old.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I said there are other adults that stop them from fighting.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then a six-year-old goes off about some story about, oh, our school teacher, our principal does that when we've had a fight with someone at school and they sit us down and make us talk to each other.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's right.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so relating it to something that they know.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I say they're there to help mum and dad come to a decision together.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's what court is.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_00: And then they say, oh, but what about the judge?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because of course they've watched cartoons or shows and they have this image of a judge.
• 45:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, does he have a hammer?
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I get asked that a lot.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so no, he doesn't have a hammer.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: But at the end of the day, if mom and dad really can't decide, really can't decide on what school to send you to, for example, someone needs to make the decision.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so at the end of the day, if mom and dad really can't agree, then yes, there is a judge who will step in and make a decision.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: But really, what court is is actually trying to get mum and dad to do that themselves.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: Such a great reframe.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: Very basic.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um now let's shift out of the professional court, the legal stuff.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to ask you a couple of questions as single mum.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um what have you found is the best thing about being a single parent?
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_01: And what do you most dislike about it?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_00: There are many good things about being a single mum.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think of the best.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: Freedom comes to mind, that word, and freedom means different things to different people.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: But freedom to me, I remember after separating, which was about two and a half years ago for me, and wasn't my choice.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I remember a day where I came to work and I said to a girlfriend, I'm so excited.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I said something like, I've just left the house with a dirty plate and a knife in the sink.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: And she looked at me like, Yeah, I said, No one cares.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: No one's gonna care.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: I just, it was so little, and depending on obviously the relationships people are in, but for me, it was so liberating, and I don't know now if I could go back to sharing my space, you know.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_01: You're not alone.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: I hear that all the time.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: It was just this freedom that I just thought I can do whatever the hell I want at home and I love it.
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, there's also this freedom in myself that I think my children gradually saw of a spontaneity.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I'm a fairly probably rules-driven kind of mother, if I was gonna self-analyse and you know, pretty strict on routine and boundaries, and probably a strict mum.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that there was there has been a freedom in in finding some fun and spontaneity that my kids have seen me in a different light.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think, you know, 99% of the time they can get rules, boundaries, routine-driven mum.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And then I remember one evening, and my kids, when I separated, were four and five.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember there was a, I think it was a Friday night.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a school night, it was definitely a Friday or Saturday night.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: And they were in their pajamas watching a bit of TV before bed.
• 48:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that they, you know, they were counting down the minutes till I said, right, bedtime.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I walked in and I said, Right, let's go.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_00: And they kind of groaned.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_00: I said, you know what, let's just walk up the road to the ice cream shop and get ice cream.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they looked at me, they said, We're in our pajamas.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, Yeah, who cares?
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: And they kind of they laughed.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: I remember this day walking up this to this ice cream shop thinking, I have that liberty to just make decisions like that.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not saying like that couldn't have happened in my marriage or would it have happened, should it have happened, but regardless of that, I did feel a sense of freedom to be able to just say, Yep, that's what we're doing.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And um, and I loved that.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, apart from all that, time away from my kids.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: I have my kids half the time.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Do I miss them?
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: Did I have children to miss out on half their childhood?
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely not.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: That is a pain that I will feel, I think, for a long time.
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_01: I actually think you feel it forever.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_01: There are things that you miss because they are not with you and you are not with them when XYZ thing happens.
• 49:59
  unknown: Yep.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't matter if they're four or five or nineteen or fifteen, you miss things.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: My five-year-old starts school next week.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: He asked me this morning, whose house am I in on the first day of school?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, darling, you're with you're in dad's house.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'll go to school and see you, but am I waking up with you?
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's the way the cookie crumbled.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's the routine and it landed on his day.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's, you know, that's the way it goes.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, is there a resentment there?
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_00: Is there pain there?
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but when coming back to the best things, uh, can I rejuvenate while they're gone?
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:35
  SPEAKER_00: Can I have time away from my children that is good for me?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of that is resetting the house and doing housework.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_00: Can I get on top of things and it's great?
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I go out for cocktails and I, it's great.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, I try to particularly talk to mums to say, if you're gonna have this time away from your child anyway, because this is what you've agreed to, or it's court ordered.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_00: I certainly couldn't go back to my ex-husband right now and say, I miss the kids too much, can they be with me more?
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: It wouldn't happen.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_00: Not because it would only happen if he thought that was good for the kids, not because of my pain, which is fair enough.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're gonna have the kids away from you anyway, make the most of it.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: Make the most of it.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, work on yourself and um make the most of whatever that looks like for you.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the worst, so you asked me the worst part.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, I think I just said it probably.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's I think it's yeah, it's the um, I didn't sign up for this.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't sign up for this when I held that baby as a newborn in the hospital.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't sign up for missing the first day of school or missing Christmas morning.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't agree to this.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think for people, even if you were the instigator of your separation for whatever reasons that you felt that that was the best choice, you didn't sign up for that.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not even about whose fault it is, but um the the missing out on stuff, I have to just tell myself that it's okay to feel that pain, anger, resentment.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I have to remind myself that my children are okay, they are happy.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: This is about me.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is about me.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for the majority of cases as well.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: I work with, but but certainly in my personal circumstance, my children are really happy.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: My kid went, Oh, yeah, so I'll see you at school before I go into the classroom.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 52:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was all right, sure.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't, he's fine.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and for me, I'll just feel the pain and know that I'm human.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think the biggest lesson your kids have learned from your separation, divorce?
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: That's a hard one because I think that they're so young.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_00: And my children have uh three older half-sisters who also they were very used to having two homes.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so for my children, the explanation was a very simple requirement of, you know how the big girls have two homes.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you're gonna have two homes now.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: So um for my children at the moment, I suppose the lessons that they're learning are more practical.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_00: They're learning flexibility between houses, they're learning that they can have different expectations and rules and they can adjust their learning organization and maturity at a young age to think about what they need in each household.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's not a bad thing.
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_01: So interesting that you share that because uh a podcast episode that I recorded earlier is about the lessons that I think my kids learned.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I said all of those things, you know, because my kids were, I think, six and four when we separated.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I really think that we can get really fixated as parents, as mothers, on all the bad stuff that divorce means in inverted commas for our children, but there are actually some real positive lessons that they can learn.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_00: And just on a complete, yeah, sideways note to that, to particularly mums listening.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: Routine doesn't have to be the same in each household.
• 54:35
  SPEAKER_00: Ideally, sure, but it doesn't have to be because kids can walk in one household, they're not silly, they know these is what I can get away with here, here's the bedtime here, this is where we eat dinner here, and they walk in the other household.
• 54:50
  SPEAKER_00: And the children I see in my practice, they seamlessly just adjust to each very different uh values or parental kind of household environment is amazing.
• 55:02
  SPEAKER_00: And and we don't question that when they walk between school and home, grandparents, what they can get away with in home.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, kids like adults, we behave differently in different scenarios and we don't get mixed up.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: We don't question, oh, that's you know, not consistent.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: So that'll be okay.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said, it teaches them flexibility.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_00: Long term, I hope that my children look back and think that it is doable if you are in an unhappy marriage, that it's not, you know, that there is a resiliency, that there is ways that parents can forge ahead.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: I hope that my children look back and see a side of me that's independent of them.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going back to dance lessons this year.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: They look at me and they go, Really?
• 55:56
  unknown: Yeah.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have to like get a costume?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I don't know about that.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but I can do all these things because I've got them half the time.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they know I do these things.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that they also see a side of mom that's not just a mother.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_00: They go, Mum does these things, and she goes out on the weekends when she's not with us, and she does dance classes and she has a business, and that there are there are multifacets to their parents, and that's a good thing.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_00: 99% of the time, you will be my world, but but not a hundred percent of the time.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's a good thing for them to learn.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, final question, and it's one that I ask all of my podcast guests.
• 56:40
  SPEAKER_01: We have a reflect coaching playlist.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I wondered if you would share a song or a piece of music you feel might support anyone heading down that single parenting path or already single parenting.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I love this question so much.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't think that there's anyone who's been through this who doesn't have their own playlist.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Music is a form of therapy, absolutely.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: And my playlist is pumped out now still, and I still add to it, at times that I want to feel empowered and uplifted and energized.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: So there's certainly not love soppy breakup songs on there.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: There, there's certainly kind of female empowerment.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: Come on, let's get out of bed and get going songs.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm trying to think of what's on there.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that you can go past Miley Cyrus flowers, can you?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I can buy myself flowers, I can write my name in the sand, I can love myself better than you can.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, come on.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_01: I can sign up for dance classes, I can reclaim myself, I can, yeah, 100%.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that one.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and if I can have two.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: You can have two.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: Adele, send my love to your next lover, to your new lover.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because um, anyway, that's just a that's just the lyrics in those verses of, you know, you signed up for this.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_00: This is what I thought you wanted.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_00: Turns out you didn't, but okay, see you later.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: Off you go.
• 58:29
  SPEAKER_00: And what I love is I just pump these songs and my kids know every word to them.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you know, they don't know that this is a mum's divorce, you know list.
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they're they're singing it out the window and um they just hear those songs a lot.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, fair enough to.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not it's not a bad thing for them to hear empowered females singing empowering songs.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing all of this with us today, Claire.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a fabulous chat.
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure we could just continue chatting and chatting, but we need to wind it up.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for sharing with us.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was so great.
• 59:09
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for having me.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: You're very welcome.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Sally Ann Hartnell, Relationship Coach, and you've been listening to Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 59:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can follow me on Instagram at Reflect Coaching, and if you can think of anyone who would love this episode, please, please share it with them.
• 59:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'd also be so grateful if you'd follow the podcast and review this episode so we can get it in the ears of a whole lot more humans just like you who are ready to reclaim and liberate themselves in life and love.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you'll join me next time for another episode of Reflect, Reclaim and Liberate.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: Until then