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“Certified Loser.” · Pod Save America

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: This election was over and then they did dumps. They
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: call them dumps, big, massive dumps.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau. I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: Later on the pod, Tommy talks to House Foreign Affairs
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Committee member Joaquin Castro about the assassination of an Iranian
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: nuclear scientist and the prospects for diplomacy under the incoming
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Biden administration. Before that, we'll talk about how Donald Trump's
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: very stupid coup attempt has finally fizzled and break down
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden's picks for his national security, economic, and communications teams.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: But first.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: if you can please support the organizers in Georgia who
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: are doing everything they possibly can to make sure Mitch
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: McConnell loses his job as Senate majority leader. Uh, these
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: are the very same organizers who just turned Georgia blue
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: for the first time in decades. You can help them
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: through an organization called America votes Georgia by going to vote,
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: save america.com slash every last vote today. Please give what
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: you can. There is nothing more important than the two
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: races in Georgia right now.
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: Um, All right.
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: Welcome back, guys.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: Welcome back. We're back.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Let's catch up on some news you may have missed
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: over the holiday. Donald Trump continued his quest to set
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: a record for the number of times a presidential candidate
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: can lose a single election. He's now lost two recounts,
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: 39 court cases in his fight to delay the final
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: certification of results in every battleground state he lost. On Wednesday,
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: General Services Administrator Emily Murphy bowed to reality by ascertaining
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: Biden's victory and allowing his team to begin the transition process.
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: And on Thursday, Trump himself gave a slight nod to
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: reality while he was sitting at a tiny desk yelling
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: at reporters. Here's a clip.
• 2:00
  Speaker 4: If the Electoral College does elect President-elect Joe Biden, are
• 2:04
  Speaker 4: you not going to leave this building?
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: Just so you know, certainly I will. Certainly I will.
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: And you know that.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: Sir, just to be clear, if the Electoral College votes
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: for Joe Biden, will you concede?
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Well, if they do, they made a mistake. Because this
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: election was a fraud. Just so you understand, this election
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: was a fraud. I mean, they have Biden beating Obama
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: on Obama's vote in areas that mattered in terms of
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: the election in swing states. And yet he's losing to
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: Obama all over the place. But he's beating Obama in
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: swing states, which are the states that mattered for purposes
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: of the election. So, no, I can't say that at all.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: I think it's a possibility. They're trying to, look, between
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: you people, don't talk to me that way.
• 2:49
  Speaker 5: You're just a lightweight.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: Don't talk to me that way. I'm the president of
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: the United States. Don't ever talk to the president that way.
• 2:56
  Speaker 5: All right, I'm going to go with another question.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Go ahead.
• 2:59
  Speaker 3: Famous respecter of presidents, yeah. Donald Trump.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: All right, so Trump becomes the first U.S. president to
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: try to overturn the results of a free and fair
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: election in order to stay in power. He had much
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: of the Republican Party and a good chunk of the
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: country behind him. He failed.
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: Love it. Why?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: What went wrong?
• 3:19
  Speaker 5: What went wrong?
• 3:20
  Speaker 6: Well, first of all, the election wasn't close enough to steal.
• 3:23
  Speaker 6: That's the most important thing that happened. Two, you know,
• 3:27
  Speaker 6: there's a big difference between what a lawyer will say
• 3:30
  Speaker 6: at a press conference in front of a landscaping outlet
• 3:33
  Speaker 6: and what they'll say in court. They just didn't have
• 3:35
  Speaker 6: a case and they got laughed out of court. They
• 3:37
  Speaker 6: lost dozens of cases. And ultimately, while a bunch of
• 3:40
  Speaker 6: Republican politicians were either too craven or cowardly to tell
• 3:44
  Speaker 6: the truth or chose to outright embrace what Donald Trump did,
• 3:48
  Speaker 6: Democrats held enough power in enough places and just enough Republicans,
• 3:53
  Speaker 6: like five, just five of them, didn't go along with
• 4:00
  Speaker 6: this enough to make it possible for Trump to muddy
• 4:03
  Speaker 6: the waters enough to take this further than he did.
• 4:05
  Speaker 6: Not to mention, the Constitution, making it quite difficult for
• 4:09
  Speaker 6: him to do things like send his own electors and
• 4:11
  Speaker 6: have the Michigan legislature disregard an election and take other
• 4:17
  Speaker 6: steps that aren't afforded to those people by law. So,
• 4:21
  Speaker 6: you know, he had a propaganda machine at his back.
• 4:24
  Speaker 6: He had a lack of scruples at his back. He
• 4:27
  Speaker 6: had Republican cowardice and a willingness to subvert democracy at
• 4:32
  Speaker 6: his back, but it wasn't enough.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: Tommy, anything to add?
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: No, I mean, look, I think Lovett hit on it.
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: When you have no case and you find your lawyers
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: on 8chan, it's probably not going to end well, you know?
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, like they had, Trump had real election lawyers
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: on the campaign and then everybody like slowly stopped responding
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: to the hashtag rigged group chat and the people left
• 4:55
  Speaker 3: were just there because they would feed him conspiracy theories.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean, look, I don't feel great about
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: the process. It was horrible to watch this like election
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: fraud human centipede that was part PR campaign, part bad lawyering,
• 5:12
  Speaker 3: part just a president who loves conspiracy theories to account
• 5:15
  Speaker 3: for his own failings. But yeah, it ended very badly
• 5:19
  Speaker 3: for Trump and I would argue for the country.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: The most important thing to me is that our judiciary
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: system upheld the law and the constitution here. Um, because
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: like you said, you know, we, there was a lot
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: of Republicans behind Trump. Uh, there weren't a ton of
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: Republicans who refused to go along with the scheme, but importantly,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: they were key Republicans in key States, right? The Georgia
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: secretary of state, the, the, uh, board of elections, Republican
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: in Michigan, right? They were, they were key Republicans, but
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: You don't in the future want to count on individuals
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: to just do the right thing in these scenarios. You
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: want to count on institutions. And like I have been
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: terrified over the last four years of all of the
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: right wing judges that Trump and McConnell have appointed across
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: the judiciary, including especially the Supreme Court. But like Rudy
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: and that band of morons were not just laughed out
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: of court because they were bad lawyers, though they are very,
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: very bad lawyers, right? They were laughed out of court because,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: like you said, Lovett, they didn't have a legal case.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: And they couldn't find, of all the right-wing judges that
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: McConnell and Trump stacked the judiciary with over the last
• 6:25
  Speaker 2: four years, they couldn't find one, one judge in the
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: entire country who would entertain their belief that there was
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: instances of fraud, voter fraud, and not just instances of
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: voter fraud, but enough voter fraud to throw out the
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: ballots of every voter in the entire state, which is
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: what they needed to do. So like all of these
• 6:46
  Speaker 2: Republicans who even did the right thing, Raffensperger and Georgia
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: and the guy in Michigan and stuff like, even if
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: they didn't do the right thing, it then would have
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: gone to court and none of these courts entertained their bullshit.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: And that I think we should feel good about.
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I do.
• 7:02
  Speaker 6: I think sometimes we've been protected by Trump's incompetence. And
• 7:07
  Speaker 6: in this case, I think we should not concede that
• 7:12
  Speaker 6: on the judicial front. It is not clear what the
• 7:15
  Speaker 6: greatest lawyers could have contrived to figure out a way
• 7:19
  Speaker 6: to get these cases to go a different way. I mean,
• 7:22
  Speaker 6: even Rudy Giuliani, like you said, they weren't able to
• 7:25
  Speaker 6: prove fraud. They weren't even alleging fraud. They weren't even
• 7:27
  Speaker 6: able to go in front of these judges and allege fraud.
• 7:30
  Speaker 6: And these are people that would say anything, do anything.
• 7:32
  Speaker 6: I mean, there was a great piece in the Washington
• 7:36
  Speaker 6: Post that walked through the kind of timeline of events
• 7:39
  Speaker 6: And what is amazing about it is you have some
• 7:41
  Speaker 6: of the most fringe and despicable figures in Republican politics
• 7:45
  Speaker 6: being like, I'm sorry, but this is not for me.
• 7:48
  Speaker 6: You have Pam Bondi backing away from a podium. People
• 7:52
  Speaker 6: like Jason Miller clearly talking to this reporter trying to
• 7:54
  Speaker 6: say that they're not the crazy ones. You have some
• 7:57
  Speaker 6: of the scum of the earth backing trying to create
• 7:59
  Speaker 6: distance from people like Jenna Ellis and Rudy Giuliani, who are,
• 8:03
  Speaker 6: as they said in the piece, like, performing for an
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: audience of one. You know, so, like, I don't know
• 8:08
  Speaker 6: what better lawyers would have done in this situation.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: There's nothing. They had no case, you know?
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: They had no case, but, you know, they wanted Jim Baker,
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: and they got Rudy's milk and dust for men. And
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: that's not going to end well, no matter what.
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: But it's funny. It's like, why did they get Rudy
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: and Jenna and Sidney Powell, right? It's because, like, the
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: real lawyers... knew that there wasn't a case so they
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: didn't want to be part of that fucking cloud show
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: so they only have the clowns left you know but
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: like you had a trump judge in pennsylvania eviscerate their
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: case saying voters not lawyers choose the president ballots not
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: briefs decide election charges of unfairness are serious but calling
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: an election unfair doesn't make it so charges require specific
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: allegations and then proof we have neither here like these
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: and and i'm surprised that first of all, that they
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: haven't found any instances of voter fraud. But even if
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: they found some voter fraud here and there in isolated incidents,
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: what the Trump campaign was essentially asking is, if there's
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: even a couple instances of voter fraud, you should throw
• 9:06
  Speaker 2: out the ballots of everyone in the state, right? And like,
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: there was no judge even willing to entertain that completely
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: insane idea.
• 9:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, there's no remedy. And that makes it difficult.
• 9:17
  Speaker 6: I will say something that Republicans won't Republican lawyers that
• 9:21
  Speaker 6: won't say in press conferences, but I do think is
• 9:23
  Speaker 6: a lesson here we should be really kind of chasing
• 9:27
  Speaker 6: by is the lesson is it's easier to steal an
• 9:29
  Speaker 6: election before the vote than after. It's easier to suppress
• 9:32
  Speaker 6: the vote before the election than after. These Republican cases
• 9:36
  Speaker 6: were incredibly unsuccessful post-election, but they had more success leading
• 9:40
  Speaker 6: up to it to prevent votes from being counted in
• 9:42
  Speaker 6: the first place. And I think that is, I think,
• 9:44
  Speaker 6: where they will turn their attention.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Moving forward.
• 9:47
  Speaker 6: The lesson is there's no remedy post-election. So you got
• 9:50
  Speaker 6: to prevent people from voting before election.
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: Which essentially is Raffensperger should not be seen as some
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: hero in Georgia. He wrote an op-ed basically saying that like,
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: you know, these Republicans are crazy and the Trump people
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: are crazy trying to overturn the election. But by the way,
• 10:03
  Speaker 2: we should have signature match and we should have all
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: these voter restrictions for next time. So we don't, you know, like,
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: so they are, they're ready to go for next time,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: but it is before the election. It's not stealing it afterwards.
• 10:12
  Speaker 6: It's let's steal this election like professionals. Can we please
• 10:15
  Speaker 6: behave like professionals?
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: So Trump is still out there saying that he won
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: the election, that there was massive voter fraud. The whole
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: thing was rigged against him. He's blamed Democratic officials, Republican officials, CNN,
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: the New York Times, Fox News, Twitter, the FBI, the
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: Department of Justice. List goes on of the people who've
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: wronged him. Every conspiracy is crazier than the last. And
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: the problem is, The overwhelming majority of the 73 million
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: Americans who voted for him believe at least parts of it. Tommy,
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: how much does that keep you up at night? And what,
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: if anything, do we do about it?
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think that pervasive disinformation and conspiracy theories
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: like this are bad and poisonous in ways that aren't
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: even obvious or even probably quantifiable right now. I don't
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: think there's anything we can do about Trump constantly pushing
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: this stuff because It's just what he's going to do.
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: It's the only way he can convince himself that he
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: is not, in fact, a gigantic loser, which is what
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: he is. I do think just stepping back, it's worth
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: noting that you had some of these same concerns after
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: Clinton lost in 2016. There was a poll right after
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: the election in November by ABC, Washington Post, that found
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: that like I think a third of Clinton supporters felt
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: like the 2016 election was not legitimate. And that was
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: before all the Russian interference stuff really got kicked up.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: So there's going to be some of this, I think.
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: What Trump and these goons are doing is worse. They
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: are pushing this conspiratorial claim that the election was rigged
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: that will make people lose confidence in the concept of democracy,
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: the concept of voting. And my concern is more long term,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: which is that they do what you were sort of saying, John,
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: which is use these arguments to undercut efforts to make
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: it easier to vote generally in America, right? Like that's
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: the long game. They want to make it harder to
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: vote by mail. They want to put in place strict
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: voter ID laws. They want to reduce the amount of
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: early voting. That's where I get concerned about a broad
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: swath of the American people thinking there is pervasive voter
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: fraud because all of that folds into voter suppression efforts,
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: which frankly is the much bigger problem. Love it.
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: What do you think?
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, look, we have.
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: All these polls coming out showing, you know, whatever, some
• 12:24
  Speaker 6: big chunk of Republicans don't believe the election was conducted fairly.
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: It mirrors every other poll that reflects misinformation on the right.
• 12:33
  Speaker 6: We have a massive misinformation and propaganda problem. It is
• 12:37
  Speaker 6: corroding every aspect of our culture and society. It is
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: the great threat to our country, and it will continue
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: to be one. There's going to be a lot of
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: hand-wringing about democratic messaging. There's going to be a lot
• 12:48
  Speaker 6: of hand-wringing about democratic strategy. We should have those debates.
• 12:50
  Speaker 6: We should have that conversation. But collectively, we should mix
• 12:54
  Speaker 6: in with our self-flagellation a recognition that vast parts of
• 12:57
  Speaker 6: the country never hear the message. They never hear what
• 13:00
  Speaker 6: we're saying. They never hear mainstream news generally. They're hearing
• 13:04
  Speaker 6: right-wing propaganda. They're in that bubble. And collectively, it's the threat.
• 13:11
  Speaker 6: And you have a conversation about the threat, and it's
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: really difficult, and nobody has perfect solutions. Nobody has perfect answers.
• 13:20
  Speaker 6: And it will be with us for a long time.
• 13:22
  Speaker 6: And I think we do have to make voting easier.
• 13:25
  Speaker 6: We have to do everything we can. I don't think
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: we should have votes counted slowly over the week that
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: follows an election because there will be bad faith attacks
• 13:33
  Speaker 6: on the process. I think we need to have a
• 13:34
  Speaker 6: vote counted in advance of election day, have the absentee
• 13:39
  Speaker 6: ballots counted as they come in because we need the
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: results to come in faster because this space creates and
• 13:44
  Speaker 6: sows doubt.
• 13:45
  Speaker 5: We need more paper records.
• 13:47
  Speaker 6: We have 95%, as Krebs said, we have 95% paper
• 13:52
  Speaker 6: records for every electronic vote cast. It should be 100%.
• 13:55
  Speaker 6: They're just like small steps we need to take.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: But the problem is, to even take those small steps,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: we need power, right? Democrats need power in these state
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: legislatures and all these different levels of government. And I
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: think the reaction from some when you look at Trump's
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: base and what they're willing to believe is, all right,
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: so he won 47% of the vote. There's been like
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: 40 to 45% of the country for a long time
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: that's willing to believe any fucking bonkers conspiracy theory that
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: Republicans throw out there, that Fox News does, that Donald
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: Trump does, right? And maybe the first reaction is, well,
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: ignore those people. There's more of us than them. The
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: problem is- because of gerrymandering, the Senate, the Electoral College,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: these people- Geography. Geography, right? These people have more voting
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: power than the rest of us. It is a huge issue.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: If we win the two Senate seats in Georgia, right,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: we can pass a John Lewis Civil Rights Act, strengthen
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: and expand voting rights, get rid of gerrymandering, reform the Senate.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: Winning in Georgia would also let Biden fill the judiciary
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: with more sane judges. If we don't, Georgia. It is
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: a struggle to win. We're going to have to sort
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: of convince some of these people to vote Democrat just
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: because of the math. And that's really hard. Then you're,
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: as you were talking about, we've got to figure out
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: how to reach these people with messages that aren't full-on conspiracy,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: like just lunacy every single day.
• 15:18
  Speaker 6: I think sometimes in politics, things that have been around for, say,
• 15:21
  Speaker 6: a decade, are treated as immutable, but they're not.
• 15:24
  Speaker 5: They change. You know, 15 years ago, George W.
• 15:27
  Speaker 6: Bush presiding over, the last Republican president to preside over
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: economic and societal ruin in.
• 15:34
  Speaker 5: His time in office.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: As they all do.
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: As they often do.
• 15:39
  Speaker 6: In the waning days of his administration, he lost huge
• 15:42
  Speaker 6: swaths of Republican support.
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: He did.
• 15:44
  Speaker 6: His approval rating dropped far lower than Trump's did, right?
• 15:46
  Speaker 6: Which means that, like, just 15 years ago, This problem
• 15:49
  Speaker 6: was not as bad. This problem has gotten worse. There
• 15:51
  Speaker 6: is something that has changed and it can change back
• 15:53
  Speaker 6: or change to something new.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: And I would say the other thing that this whole
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: like attempted coup experience should remind us is that these-
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: Which is a new ride.
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: Which is a new ride. Which is just a terrible ride.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: Look, these local and state races matter so much. I mean,
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: we've been saying this for the last four years, of course,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: but like not only governor, but secretaries of state, attorneys general,
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: judicial elections, state legislators, right? Like these are the people
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: who really sort of run the mechanics of elections and
• 16:23
  Speaker 2: making sure, like, the reason that I was never very
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: afraid of this coup attempt is because I knew that
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: if all else failed, we'd have Democrats in positions of
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: power in enough battleground states to hit 270 for Joe Biden,
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: which is a scary place to be, but we had
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: that comfort because of the Democrats who were in power there. Okay,
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: so one potential problem for Republicans in having a base
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: that believes in all these conspiracies is is that it
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: may be difficult to get your supporters to vote in
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: elections that you keep telling them are rigged. This is
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: already happening with the runoff in Georgia. Last week, some
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: rich Trump donor from Atlanta who was responsible for one
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: of the frivolous election lawsuits tweeted to his 600,000 followers
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: that he won't be voting in the runoff if Perdue
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: and Loeffler don't, quote, fix the Dominion voting machines, which
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: have been somehow rigged to give us a Democratic president
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: and a more Republican Congress. So this is one of
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: several Trump supporters who've been urging people to boycott Georgia. Tommy,
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: how much of a problem is this for Republicans in Georgia?
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: And can we help make it worse?
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, the answer is, I don't know, but
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: I love it. I love every second of it. I'm
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: going to drink it in. I mean, yeah, you have Trump.
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: The bigger thing is Trump is repeatedly attacking Brian Kemp,
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: the Republican governor of Georgia, for not intervening in the
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: election to overturn it and throw it to him, despite
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: the fact that that would be clearly illegal. Over the weekend,
• 17:45
  Speaker 3: Trump said he was ashamed of endorsing Kemp. So this
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: is a big story in Georgia. And then you mentioned
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: at the grassroots level that attorney Lin Wood is telling
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: people not to vote in elections that have Dominion voting machines.
• 17:59
  Speaker 3: He doesn't seem to understand that even if you voted
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: absentee as your workaround, that a Dominion voting machine would
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: then count that absentee ballot, right? The Secretary of State
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: is out there like head in hand at how stupid
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: this plan is. So Clearly, Republicans are getting concerned. Trump's
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: going to go to Georgia for a rally on December 5th.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: It will be very interesting to see how much that
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: turns into your typical hour and a half long stand
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: up slash list of grievances. You got Don Jr. out
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: there tweeting that everybody needs to vote. How much does
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: this matter? We don't know. How much does it matter
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: when you have $ 300 million of TV ads pouring into
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: the state?
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: What I hope is that Progressive groups are pouring gas
• 18:46
  Speaker 3: on this fire. They're boosting comments like these on social
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: media platforms, especially on Facebook, trying to use Republicans' words
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: against them. Longer term, Brian Kemp is up for reelection
• 18:57
  Speaker 3: in 2022. He will probably face a primary that might include,
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: what's that goober's name, Doug Collins?
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: First class goober.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And a couple of others.
• 19:08
  Speaker 5: Kemp's a fucking first class goober. They sit in first
• 19:11
  Speaker 5: class goober together or whatever.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: And you might have a rematch with Stacey Abrams. So like,
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: you know, this might not just be a special election
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: problem for the Republican Party. It could be longer term.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: I don't, you know, we'll see. I don't want to
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: get myself too excited here, but it's it's fun. It's
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: fun to watch. Love it.
• 19:28
  Speaker 2: I think Mr. Trump has been wronged. And I don't
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: think that I don't think Perdue and Loeffler have been
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: standing up for him.
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: No, they've been, they're basically Democrats at this point, but, um,
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: just a couple of, there's just, look, you have to
• 19:41
  Speaker 6: choose which Democrat you want. Warnock, Ossoff, Loeffler, or Perdue.
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: A couple of, it's basically a primary. It's a pretty
• 19:50
  Speaker 6: contentious primary. I say vote for the left candidate in
• 19:53
  Speaker 6: the primary. That's my position. I always support the most progressive. No, look,
• 19:57
  Speaker 6: I'll just, I'll tell you what my honest reaction to
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: this has been, which is like, again, I don't know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 6: same as Tommy, but I think we're also, like, there's
• 20:04
  Speaker 6: been a lot of coverage over the last four years
• 20:06
  Speaker 6: that treat Trump supporters as naive and not enough that
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: treats them as cynical.
• 20:11
  Speaker 5: And I actually think.
• 20:14
  Speaker 6: One of the lessons of the last four years is
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: that they're more cynical than they let on this pool
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: of people. So my expectation is that Trump goes down there.
• 20:20
  Speaker 6: tells people how important it is to vote for Leffler
• 20:23
  Speaker 6: and Perdue, even though the election was rigged against him
• 20:25
  Speaker 6: because of Brian Kemp, who fucking sucks. And this doesn't become,
• 20:30
  Speaker 6: and by the way, we should act as if it isn't.
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: Going to be a big issue.
• 20:32
  Speaker 6: We should presume that all these people are going to
• 20:34
  Speaker 6: turn out and try to win anyway. That said, I
• 20:36
  Speaker 6: definitely support, you know, it's a podcast. I'm twisting something.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: I think it would be a real shame if someone
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: paid to put those tweets and those videos of Trump
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: supporters saying that people should boycott the runoff in front
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: of the, on the screens of Georgia Republican voters. I
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: think it would be a real shame if that happened.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It would suck if that was all over Facebook.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It would suck if someone ran a whole effort to
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: do that. That would, uh, I don't, I just don't
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: know if I could support that.
• 21:03
  Speaker 6: Also, by the way, just one, one note on Kemp too,
• 21:05
  Speaker 6: just because it's like, you know, Trump will go and
• 21:08
  Speaker 6: then there will be a new Trump. And the lesson
• 21:11
  Speaker 6: from what we see with Kemp, right? Kemp He keeps saying,
• 21:14
  Speaker 6: you know, I have to do my job, but I
• 21:16
  Speaker 6: wish this Rathensberger guy would do a better job of
• 21:19
  Speaker 6: like auditing the vote.
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: He's trying to push it down and it doesn't work, man.
• 21:22
  Speaker 5: It doesn't work. Half in on this shit doesn't work.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: All right. So President-elect Biden has made a slew of
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: personnel announcements over the last week, putting together an administration
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: that's so far very experienced, diverse and unsurprisingly reflective of
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Biden's policy and political views. Let's start with some of
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: the high profile national security positions that were announced just
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: before Thanksgiving. Tony Blinken, a secretary of state. Alejandro Mayorkas,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: who would be the first Latino and the first immigrant
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: to run Homeland Security. Avril Haines, who would be the
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: first woman to serve as director of national intelligence. And
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Linda Thomas-Greenfield as U.S. ambassador to the U.N., which Biden
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: is elevating back to a cabinet level position. These are
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: all roles that will require Senate confirmation. Biden also named
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: Jake Sullivan to serve as his national security advisor. And
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: John Kerry is coming back as special presidential envoy for climate. Tommy,
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: what do you think about the picks? And what, if anything,
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: do they say about how Biden intends to conduct foreign
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: policy and national security?
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: So I'll focus on Tony Avril and Jake the most,
• 22:27
  Speaker 3: just because I know them very well from the Obama days.
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: They are all like incredibly– they're brilliant people. They're principled.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: They're good folks. I think it's really– Tony to me
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: was a signal of Biden's focus on international organizations and
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: institutions and diplomacy and a desire to empower them. Avril
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: had a bunch of jobs in the administration. She was
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: deputy director of the CIA and deputy national security advisor.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: But I worked with her the most when she was
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: doing national security law. including as the Deputy White House
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: Counsel focused on national security affairs. And I think that
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: just sort of tells you her orientation, which is to
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: approach the intelligence community from a legal framework, as opposed
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: to like a military background, for example. So I think
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: like that's a good sign in my book. Jake Sullivan,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: who Lovett knows incredibly well too, like he was an
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Iran deal negotiator. He worked at the State Department as
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: the head of policy planning. So he is likely to
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: prioritize that diplomatic toolbox as a way to solve problems.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: And that's a very good thing from the national security
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: advisor's seat because, you know, you want to have an
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: emphasis on diplomacy and not always look to military solutions.
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: So I think like the big picture is these are
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: exactly the people who I would have expected to work
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: for Joe Biden in these jobs. I think all of
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: them are incredibly loyal to him. They're incredibly smart. I
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: think all of them have learned from the mistakes of
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: the Obama administration. Like you should Google Tony Blinken talking
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: about mistakes and regrets from Syria on CBS News, it's
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: worth listening to. But they are like experienced, good human beings,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: highly professional. I think it'll be a great team. And it's,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: you know, exactly what you should have expected to get
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: from Joe Biden. Love it.
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: What do you think? You've worked with Jake a long time.
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: Yeah, no, I worked with Jake when he was a
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: policy aid for the Hillary Clinton campaign in 2008, as
• 24:20
  Speaker 6: was Neera Tanden. She ran the policy shop and Brian Deese,
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: who's in the running to be director of the National
• 24:26
  Speaker 6: Economic Council. And Jake and Brian are people that I
• 24:30
  Speaker 6: got to know well. First of all, they're just two
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: of the smartest human beings you'll ever meet in your life.
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: They're just brilliant people. This is something actually that Tucker
• 24:37
  Speaker 6: Carlson went on a rant about this a while ago
• 24:39
  Speaker 6: before his latest transmutation into a fascist white ring nationalist.
• 24:45
  Speaker 6: And And it was that Republican staffers on the Hill
• 24:49
  Speaker 6: are more moderate than their bosses. But it's also, I think,
• 24:51
  Speaker 6: been a fact for a long time that Democratic staffers
• 24:54
  Speaker 6: on the Hill are more liberal than their bosses. And
• 24:56
  Speaker 6: I just remember having a lot of conversations over the
• 24:59
  Speaker 6: years with Jake, with Brian, that were just about progressive
• 25:03
  Speaker 6: politics and about how to make the country a more
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: progressive place.
• 25:06
  Speaker 5: And I also.
• 25:09
  Speaker 6: Every once in a while, I would play poker with
• 25:10
  Speaker 6: Brian and Jake and I would just lose because they're
• 25:13
  Speaker 6: much smarter than me. And finally, I just said like,
• 25:16
  Speaker 6: how about we just make a deal where I pay
• 25:18
  Speaker 6: you $ 20 to be my friend?
• 25:22
  Speaker 5: Like, I don't, why don't we cut this shit?
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: That's better.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I will say like, one thing about all of these
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: picks so far is, you know, we've talked a lot
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: about how Biden is really in the center of the
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Democratic Party. Not like centrist politically, but like, Not far left,
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: not set, like right, and sort of has evolved along
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: with the Democratic Party and always stays sort of in
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: the center of the party. A lot of these picks
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: are similar.
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: And like, you know, when.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: I interviewed Jake for a long time for The Wilderness,
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I interviewed like high level Hillary people, high level Bernie
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: people to try to see like different parts of the party. And,
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: you know, like Jake and Faz, who was working for,
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: you know, had worked for Bernie, they were both people who,
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: They work for their candidate, but they really have sort
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: of empathy and understanding for people on the other side
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: of the fight.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: Like they really are. And Ron Klain is like this, too.
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: These are people who are respected along the Democratic Party's spectrum,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: which is a hard thing to do in this in
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: this current climate.
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Especially with Twitter and everything else. But they do. He
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: has he has picked a lot of people who are
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: both find themselves in the center of the party and
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: have respect along the spectrum. Most of these so far, I.
• 26:31
  Speaker 3: Think you say they're widely respected on both sides.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I'd respect it on both sides. Yeah, they're straight shooters.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: I will say one more thing. I did not work
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: closely with Eli Mayorkas, who's going to run DHS, but
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: we've talked about what a fucking disaster the Department of
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Homeland Security has become and ICE under Trump. And to
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: have someone who was the key architect of DACA, helped
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: normalize relations with Cuba, a Cuban immigrant himself, a refugee himself,
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: the first immigrant and refugee to run DHS, has been
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: praised by immigrant rights groups like that is really hopeful
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: to me in seeing what happens with the future of
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: DHS and immigration under the Biden administration. So it was
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: a great pick.
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: I do hope that there's a conversation in the next
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: four years about the Department of Homeland Security and whether
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: the way it's currently constituted makes any sense because it doesn't.
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: It's very stupid. It's huge. And it's a legacy of
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: a post 9-11 hysteria that didn't make sense then and
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: didn't make sense now. I also hope that like having
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: key diplomats like Linda Thomas-Greenfield and Tony and Jake involved
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: will lead the Democratic Party to be more full-throated in
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: defense of diplomacy. It drives me absolutely crazy when Democrats
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: talk about the JCPOA, the Iran nuclear deal, and they
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: lead the conversation with 400 caveats about how it's flawed
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: and time-limited and this and that, when we're currently watching
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: the alternative. which is the outgoing Trump administration trying to
• 27:58
  Speaker 3: start a war to solve a problem that had been handled.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Like we should just be in favor of diplomacy, diplomatic solutions.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: We should think about engagement in the world in those terms,
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: not in terms of sending our military to every fucking
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: continent possible. Like if we can right-size those things over
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: the next four years, and again, like pull back from
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: this post 9-11 legacy of the war on terrorism and
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: all the mistakes of the Bush administration in Iraq, That
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: would be an enormous step forward for the country, for
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: the world, and something I'd like to see. And I
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: think this team is well positioned to do that.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: So some Senate Republicans are already threatening confirmation battles, despite
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: the fact that only nine cabinet nominees in history have
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: been rejected by the Senate. The last time it happened
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: was in 1989. Marco Rubio attacked Biden's national security picks
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: for going to Ivy League schools and being, quote, caretakers
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: of America's decline. And John Cornyn tweeted that he may
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: not confirm Tony or real unless they disclose the clients
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: they worked for at their old consulting firm, West Exec Advisors.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: So I'm almost positive that a list of clients won't
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: satisfy John Cornyn. But in general, how do you think
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Biden should handle these potential nomination fights? What do you think, Tommy?
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: How much do we, I mean, if, look, if we
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: win two races in Georgia, we can tell Marco and
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: Cornyn and Mitch to shut the fuck up forever, right?
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: If we don't, you kind of need to kiss Susan
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: Collins and Lisa Murkowski and Mitt Romney's ass for some
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: of these nominations, right?
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: I mean, first, just on Marco Rubio, because I can't resist. Like,
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: Do you think he designs his tweets to be 20%
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: stupid so that everyone dunks on him so that it
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: gets picked up? Because Marco Rubio, if you're going to
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: criticize where people went to college in a potential Biden
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: administration without talking about how Jared Kushner bought his way
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: into Harvard and then became the shadow secretary of state
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: and you didn't say anything, I don't want to hear
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: about it ever again from you. You have no credibility.
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: I think- In terms of Cornyn and just like the
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: bigger picture, like I think you have to start by
• 30:02
  Speaker 3: being clear about the fact that John Cornyn and Mitch
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: McConnell and all of these guys, they don't care about
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: the substance in any way, shape or form. They do
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: not care about conflicts of interest. They don't care about
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: where these guys worked.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: They didn't care when Trump made a Raytheon lobbyist his
• 30:16
  Speaker 3: secretary of defense. They didn't care when he made a
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: literal lobbyist. Twitter troll, the director of national intelligence, who
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: had zero, he would have worked for me in the
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: Obama administration. He had no qualifications to do that job.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: This is entirely about politics and it has to be
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: approached accordingly because you're not going to hand these guys
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: some magical set of documents and John Corden decides, aha, okay,
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: now I'm fine. So I think the Biden team needs
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: to approach this fight and provide what is standard in
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: these positions when it comes to like you know, lists
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: of things someone did at their past job or statements
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: or all the appropriate vetting because vetting is important. But
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: then they need to use their public messaging to pressure
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: the shit out of the Senate into getting people in
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: place for critical national security roles. And if McConnell and
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: Cornyn and these goons fight that and they try to
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: hamstring the national security of the United States by not
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: confirming a secretary of state or defense or a DNI,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: they need to figure out ways to go around the
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Senate by using recess appointments or the Vacancies Act. Like,
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: Mitch McConnell can't have a veto on who you put
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: in your cabinet. That's absurd. It's not what the founders intended.
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: It's advise and consent. It's not, you know, your feelings
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: were hurt by something your attendant tweeted. Therefore, you can
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: refuse her nomination. It's ridiculous.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: Also, I think if they do that, if there's more
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Cornyn and Rubio tweets like there have been now at
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: this stage, I think it's somewhat dangerous for Republicans because
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: then the message going into Georgia is, Like if you
• 31:50
  Speaker 2: want to let the Republicans completely sabotage Joe Biden's government
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: before it gets off the ground, if you're basically going
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: to say he is not allowed to even form a government,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: that's how bad the gridlock is going to be. Then
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: you can vote for Perdue and Loeffler and you will
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: get not only legislative gridlock, but Joe Biden won't even
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: be able to have a national security team, won't even
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: be able to have an economic team. That's what they're
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: saying right now. I mean, like it can look too obstructive.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: And that's why I think you see the Cornons and
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: the Rubios doing this, but like a lot of other
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Republicans in the Senate so far, at least holding their fire.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Maybe they want to be assholes after the Georgia Senate elections.
• 32:23
  Speaker 2: But I do think that's, that's one issue that they
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: have to worry about because they, they're basically like people
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: don't reject cabinet nominees. That doesn't happen in the Senate, right?
• 32:31
  Speaker 2: Like you, you get the team that you want. And,
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: and yet they're already saying that they don't, they won't
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: give that to Joe Biden.
• 32:37
  Speaker 6: And yeah, you have to just also assume by the way,
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: like They're boring. They're boring picks. Like competence is now
• 32:43
  Speaker 6: kind of seen as boring, right? Like it's just like, oh,
• 32:45
  Speaker 6: like ho-hum, they know they're qualified. But like Susan Collins,
• 32:49
  Speaker 6: Mitt Romney, like they don't want to vote against these people.
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: They don't want to be part of this fight at all,
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: at all. And I just don't, you know, maybe McConnell
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: can prevent there from being a vote. But if there's
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: a vote, these people will get through. And I think
• 33:00
  Speaker 6: even John Cornyn knows this. No one makes political predictions
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: that turn out to be false more frequently.
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: Than John Cornyn does. Yeah, I mean, there might even
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: be some concern about them getting out of committee to
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: prevent the Susan Collinses of the world from even voting
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: on them, which would be an even further step in
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: the direction of obstruction that is unprecedented.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: Let's talk about Biden's economic team, which he announced today.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: For Treasury, former Fed Chairwoman Janet Yellen, who would be
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: the first woman to hold that position. For Deputy Treasury Secretary,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: Obama Foundation President Wally Adeyemo. for Director of the Office
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: of Management and Budget, Center for American Progress, President Neera Tanden,
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: for the Council of Economic Advisors, Cecilia Rouse as chair,
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: as well as Heather Bucci and Jared Bernstein, three very
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: well-respected progressive labor economists. It's also been reported that Biden
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: intends to name Brian Deese, a former Obama administration official
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: and current head of sustainable investing at BlackRock, to be
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: the director of his National Economic Council. Biggest announcement here
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: is Janet Yellen for Treasury. What do you think of
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: that choice? Love it?
• 33:56
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, look, I know Neera. You know, Neera
• 34:01
  Speaker 6: is one of the smartest people in Democratic politics. She's
• 34:04
  Speaker 6: also not afraid of that tweet button. She'll click it,
• 34:07
  Speaker 6: you know, she'll hit tweet. And so she's definitely like, well,
• 34:14
  Speaker 6: it's a reminder that like Joe Biden is not online.
• 34:16
  Speaker 6: Joe Biden's campaign is not online. Like there has been
• 34:19
  Speaker 6: a react. There's been like somebody pointed this out, like
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: trying to explain why people have such a strong and
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: visceral reaction to Neera Tanden would be very hard to
• 34:28
  Speaker 6: do because it is based on years and years and
• 34:31
  Speaker 6: years of Twitter fighting. But on the whole, like, you know,
• 34:34
  Speaker 6: I know Brian Deese. Like, I think Brian Deese would be, like,
• 34:37
  Speaker 6: he's just, as I said earlier, he's one of the
• 34:40
  Speaker 6: smartest people you'll ever meet.
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: He is a progressive.
• 34:42
  Speaker 6: Like, I know that Sunrise, which we love, like, has
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: attacked him for having worked at BlackRide. I am very
• 34:47
  Speaker 6: confident that he chose to go into the private sector
• 34:50
  Speaker 6: in a way that he thought would comport with his values,
• 34:52
  Speaker 6: which is why he worked on sustainable development there so
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: that he could go back into the government and fight
• 34:56
  Speaker 6: for climate change, fight for progressive economic policies. So I
• 34:59
  Speaker 6: think he's the kind of person you want in that job. Um, uh, I, I,
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: you know, look, I, Janet Yellen, um, the one thing
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: that I think is cool that, you know, we talked
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: about this about climate change, I think, uh, about, about
• 35:12
  Speaker 6: our hopes for climate change after the transition. And one, one, um,
• 35:17
  Speaker 6: One potential role of a treasury secretary is to view
• 35:22
  Speaker 6: climate change as systemic risk to the economy. This is
• 35:24
  Speaker 6: something that David Roberts has written about, a few people
• 35:27
  Speaker 6: have written about. It's basically interpreting climate change as an
• 35:30
  Speaker 6: economic threat, which it is. And she's somebody who's talked
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: about that. And I think that's kind of exciting. I
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: think it's exciting to imagine a treasury secretary viewing climate
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: change as posing a systemic risk to our economy because
• 35:39
  Speaker 6: that gives the treasury secretary a number of new tools
• 35:41
  Speaker 6: to fight climate change.
• 35:42
  Speaker 3: That is very good.
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Mike. My overall view on an economic team, you
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: want climate hawks and not deficit hawks.
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: And that's right.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: Every single one of these people fits into that category.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, with Yellen, you get someone who is
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: maybe the most widely respected economist sort of across not
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: only the Democratic Party, but even into the center right.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Elizabeth Warren said Yellen was smart, tough and principled. She
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: said that she stood up to Wall Street banks. So
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: you got a fan in Elizabeth Warren. Gary Cohn said
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: she'd be a steady hand on the other side. Democracy
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: for America, like very liberal progressive group said she's going
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: to be a historic progressive choice. So like a lot
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: of plaudits for Yellen from across the political spectrum is hard, right?
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: Because we have worked with a lot of these people closely, right?
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: So obviously they were former colleagues. Some of them are friends.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: We are obviously biased, but like if you just take
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: the person's sort of if you take the like relationship
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: out of it, right? And knowing these people, like what
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: happened last time Brian Deese was in a position of
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: authority in the government, right? Well, he helped save the
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: auto industry and restructured it with the highest fuel economy
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: standards in history. And he's one of the lead negotiators
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: of the Paris Climate Accords, right? That's what Brian did
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: last time he was in government. You know, Bill McKibben,
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: who was a longtime climate activist, whose organization literally wants
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: to stop all new fossil fuel projects tweeted out this
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: long thing over the weekend, vouching for Brian Deese, John
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: Podesta vouches for him. You know, I think in general,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: I don't think the main obstacle to progressive policy outcomes
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: will come from any of the people that Biden has
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: selected so far. It'll come from either a Republican Senate
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: or right-wing judges striking down Biden's executive actions. Like those
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: are the big worries that we should have going forward,
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: not necessarily any of the people who Biden selected, all
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: of whom are extremely experienced. It's a very diverse team.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: And like you said, they're very progressive policymakers in almost
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: every instance.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, look, we're kind of focusing on the
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: ones that have like kicked up a little bit of controversy,
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: which is, I guess, the point of kicking up controversy.
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: But the Republican response to Neera Tanden's nomination to run
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: OMB came from John Cornyn's flack, who basically said she
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: was mean on lying to Republican senators. So that's a
• 38:02
  Speaker 3: nonstarter for them. Boo-hoo, man. Again, the Constitution says advice
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: and consent. It doesn't say we have to coddle your
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: thin-skinned crybaby boss. You guys are a bunch of cowards.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry if that hurts your feelings, but it's a
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: very Trumpian thing to say you have to be nicer
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: to me or else you can't work in the government.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: That's absurd.
• 38:23
  Speaker 5: I agree.
• 38:23
  Speaker 3: The criticism of Brian Deese from climate activists felt... particularly
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: just misguided. John, you took through some of it, Paris
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: Climate Accords, fighting to increase fuel efficiency standards in cars.
• 38:35
  Speaker 3: But I also think Brian will be helpful because his
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: mindset is going to be, how do we use every
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: single lever of government available to us across the entire
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: government to combat climate change? John Kerry will be doing
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: the same thing. And I get that people don't like
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: BlackRock and some of these firms, but his job was
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: trying to get BlackRock and other clients to increase their
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: investments in renewable energy sources and not fossil fuels. So
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: I think the guilt by association thing is really strained
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: by the reality of what he did in government and
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: at BlackRock.
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: Everyone's criticism, if you want to criticize picks, that's totally legitimate.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: It's just like, you know, judge these people by their
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: actions once they get the jobs, right? Just like, see, look,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: this economic team, I think what's exciting about it is
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: They are all more, all the people running the economic
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: team are more progressive than some of the people on
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Obama's economic team.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Who tended to be more deficit hawks at the time, right?
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: Like Neera has pissed off a lot of people online
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: on the left, but like from a policy perspective, she
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: put out a, you know, Kat put out a healthcare
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: plan that was more progressive than Joe Biden's healthcare plan.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: They got closer to Medicare for all than Joe Biden
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: or a lot of the other democratic candidates. Heather Boushey
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: and Jared Bernstein and Cecilia Rouse, like they are very
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: progressive labor economists. They focus on inequality, on wage growth,
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: on full employment. That is a very progressive economic team
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: that you have right there on the Council of Economic Advisors.
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: People should be, I'm excited about that as someone who
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: cares a lot about economic inequality and wage growth.
• 40:12
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I also too, these are also a lot of
• 40:15
  Speaker 6: people that went through the fire of the Great Recession
• 40:18
  Speaker 6: and the intransigence of Mitch McConnell. It is extraordinary how
• 40:21
  Speaker 6: set up we are for a repeat of of a
• 40:23
  Speaker 6: lot of what happened then. We are in a great
• 40:25
  Speaker 6: economic crisis. We need massive stimulus. Mitch McConnell, right now,
• 40:29
  Speaker 6: unless we win those Senate seats, holds the key to
• 40:31
  Speaker 6: doing that. A lot of what we need to have
• 40:33
  Speaker 6: happen will have to happen from the administrative level. Even
• 40:37
  Speaker 6: as they've been criticizing some of these picks, Data for Progress,
• 40:42
  Speaker 6: Justice Dems, a few other organizations put out a series
• 40:44
  Speaker 6: of steps that they thought a Democratic administration could begin
• 40:49
  Speaker 6: to take with administrative power. And I think that to
• 40:51
  Speaker 6: me is is the most important thing. I do think
• 40:54
  Speaker 6: that this is a team that is committed to using
• 40:56
  Speaker 6: executive power as aggressively as possible in the early days
• 40:59
  Speaker 6: of this administration, in part because of the lessons of
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: what happened in the early days of the Obama administration.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: And I was going to say that the one thing
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: I'd push the team on is I hope they're willing
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: to take the risks because what we found out in
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: the Obama administration is like, why did we have to
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: wait till the second term or almost the second term
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: to do DACA? Because a lot of the lawyers were
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: worried that it wouldn't pass muster.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: And that could be true for a lot of these
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: executive actions. The lawyers could be correct. But I think
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: you need to sort of take the risks. One thing
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: we've learned is that you should try to take the
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: risks first, especially if you have a Republican Senate that
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: will not let you do anything legislatively. So finally, you know,
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Biden announced his communications team, which will be the first
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: in history to be led entirely by women. Kate Bedingfield
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: is White House communications director. Jen Psaki is White House
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: press secretary. Corinne Jean-Pierre is principal deputy White House press secretary.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Pili Tobar is deputy communications director. Ashley Etienne as the
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: vice president's communications director. And former Crooked Media contributor Simone
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: Sanders as the vice president's chief spokeswoman. I knew we'd
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: finally get some representation in that government. Any thoughts on
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: the comms team and particularly how they might restore relations
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: between the press and the White House? Tommy, I know
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: you've thought about this a lot.
• 42:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, look, that is an all-star team. I mean, I'm
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: really glad they brought in the whole campaign team because
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: there is literally no experience quite like being on the
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: campaign to understand what the president thinks, what Biden and
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: Harris have said in the past, what the pitfalls are
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: of those positions, reporter relationships. They'll also have relationships with
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: with Ron Klain and Jen O'Malley and all these senior
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: people who are coming in who can help them do
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: the job. That's the key. Jen Psaki, who we all
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: worked with forever, who we all love, brings a ton
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: of experience from her time at the White House. She
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: briefed at the podium at the State Department, which is
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: arguably a hell of a lot harder given the range
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: of shit you're asked. So they are ready to go
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: on day one. I think the biggest challenge for all
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: of them is how do you restructure the communications shop
• 42:54
  Speaker 3: in the White House for the media landscape of 2020?
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: And the answer cannot be to just ditch what Trump
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: did and go back to what Obama did in 2008.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Because in some ways, I think like the briefing room fights,
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: the fights from the podium with the White House press
• 43:09
  Speaker 3: corps are now secondary. And the bigger fights, the more
• 43:12
  Speaker 3: important fights to win are on Facebook and YouTube, and unfortunately,
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Twitter and social media platforms. So they're going to need
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: to have a huge digital team that is like supersized
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: and creative. And that's going to have to extend to
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: thinking harder about, you know, outreach and interviews to like
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: different outlets that are not just the Washington Post or
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: traditional political news sites. And that part of it is
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: going to create some friction between them and the press corps.
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: I remember when we created this silly little behind the
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: scenes video series called West Wing Week. And basically it
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: was like this guy, Josh Earnest, who's the nicest human
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: being on the planet. It's The press secretary in the
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: second term. West Wing week. And the reporters called it propaganda.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: That was a problem. Yeah, they called it propaganda, right?
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: And it was ridiculous then. But if you take that
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: kind of owned content, stuff you create yourself off the table,
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: you are going to hamstring yourself. So they're going to
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: need to sort of ignore some of the complaints about
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: creating that kind of content and just be clear-eyed about
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: the fact that the press corps is going to be
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: even harder on them than before because to show how
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: balanced they are after spending four years fact-checking Trump. So
• 44:22
  Speaker 3: they're going to need to go around them more. The
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: piece of this that is just about restoring integrity to
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: the briefing room is almost the easiest part. These are honest,
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: factual people who care about doing the job well and
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: getting back to reporters. They can fix that piece. They
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: basically have fixed that piece, I think, with the personnel changes.
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: The far bigger challenge is figuring out how the hell
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: you reach the entire country when half of it doesn't
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: believe in objective facts and the other half is listening
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: to OAN or whatever garbage news outlet. And the good news, again,
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: is that the team that was on the campaign is
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: better prepared than anyone to understand that media landscape and
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: to work through it because they just won an election.
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: So it's going to be tough. They're going to have
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: to deal with some really annoying, allegedly principled whining from reporters,
• 45:09
  Speaker 3: but they got to do their jobs and reach people,
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: not go through the press.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: And I think this will be a fantastic team to
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: do that. And I know and have worked with a
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: lot of these people, but especially I'm so happy to
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: see Jen Psaki as press secretary. I mean, I've probably
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: known Jen longer than most people in politics. I've known
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: her for 17 years now. And she is like the kindest,
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: most competent, hardworking person in politics. People love her. Reporters
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: love her. Like it is impossible not to like Jen Psaki.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: And I think for that role, which is a really
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: tough role as the press secretary. You have to sort
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: of balance relations between, you know, everyone in the white
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: house and the president and all the advisors and the
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: press and sort of be the go between and be
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: advocates for both the press and the white house staff.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Like she is sort of a perfect person to do that.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: And of course, like, you know, I know Kate well
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: and Simone from her time at crooked and it's a
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: really fantastic team. So I'm, I'm, I'm glad he announced
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: all of them.
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Any, any final thoughts there?
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: No, I mean, look, I agree with everything you're saying. It's,
• 46:11
  Speaker 6: I just stepping back, like it's such a relief.
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: It's just a relief.
• 46:14
  Speaker 6: It adds to the sense that like, we really are
• 46:16
  Speaker 6: transitioning to something so much better. We all know that,
• 46:19
  Speaker 6: but seeing each post, seeing each person, like just the
• 46:22
  Speaker 6: people that we know, it's just so reassuring. Like these
• 46:24
  Speaker 6: are decent, honest people who are good at their jobs,
• 46:26
  Speaker 6: who are competent, who have the right experience, who won't
• 46:29
  Speaker 6: use the, the briefing room to spread right-wing propaganda and COVID.
• 46:33
  Speaker 6: So discord and COVID.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Right, right, right.
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: And COVID not to mention COVID.
• 46:39
  Speaker 6: So like, My takeaway just in seeing these announcements over
• 46:41
  Speaker 6: the past couple of days has just been like the
• 46:43
  Speaker 6: relief of removing Trump hitting me again, that like not
• 46:47
  Speaker 6: only are we removing Trump, removing all the kind of
• 46:49
  Speaker 6: sycophants and villains that have been around him for the
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: past four years. And just that alone is such an
• 46:53
  Speaker 6: important change. So I just was excited about it.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: Same.
• 46:56
  Speaker 5: And like, yeah.
• 46:57
  Speaker 6: And like, look, like I also just want to say
• 46:59
  Speaker 6: one thing too, which is that like, I joked about
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: Neera being a tweeter, but the one thing I will
• 47:03
  Speaker 6: say about Neera is that like, she's a fucking fighter.
• 47:07
  Speaker 6: She's been a fighter for a real long time. And
• 47:08
  Speaker 6: she like, she takes hits and she had her emails
• 47:11
  Speaker 6: hacked and like, you don't have to like her. You
• 47:13
  Speaker 6: can be critical of her, be critical of her, you know,
• 47:15
  Speaker 6: be critical of Kat, be critical of.
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: The decisions she's made.
• 47:18
  Speaker 6: But the one thing that I do think is really
• 47:20
  Speaker 6: impressive about Neera Tanden as a person is that like
• 47:22
  Speaker 6: that is a person in the trenches who like has
• 47:25
  Speaker 6: never been cowed by criticism. So, you know, I think
• 47:28
  Speaker 6: she can take it.
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you what, we've all tweeted enough that we're
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: not getting confirmed. Speaking of people who tweet a lot, right?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: I empathize with the position. Yeah.
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: Going to have to find the right ambassadorship for me,
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: I think.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: When we come back, we will have.
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: Something warm.
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: When we come back, we will have Tommy's conversation with
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Congressman Joaquin Castro.
• 48:02
  Speaker 3: I am now joined by Texas Congressman and member of
• 48:04
  Speaker 3: the House Foreign Affairs Committee, Joaquin Castro. Congressman Castro, thank
• 48:08
  Speaker 3: you so much for joining us today.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it. I really appreciate it too. I know
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: my brain is a little slow after way too much turkey.
• 48:17
  Speaker 3: So I do really appreciate the time helping us understand
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: this stuff. So last week, a top Iranian nuclear scientist
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: was assassinated. Most people believe that the Israeli government was
• 48:28
  Speaker 3: responsible for his assassination in part because... Israeli Prime Minister
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: Bibi Netanyahu has specifically named this scientist before, and because
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Israel is known to have assassinated several other Iranian nuclear
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: scientists between 2010 and 2012. My first question is just,
• 48:46
  Speaker 3: has Congress been briefed on this action at all? And
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: then just moreover, what's your initial reaction to, I guess,
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: what you've read and seen so far?
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: Oh, you're right.
• 48:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, there's been a lot of public speculation about
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: who exactly is responsible for And I'm looking forward to
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: getting briefed as a member of the Intelligence Committee as
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: soon as possible. We go back into session later this week.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: And so I hope and expect that that will be
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: part of our briefings. And in terms of the purpose
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: or what it's accomplished, it comes. at a very critical time,
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: as you know, because the United States is changing presidents.
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: Joe Biden is going to become president on January 20th.
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: And I think that's led to a lot of speculation
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: about the idea that a nation or nations are were
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: trying to undermine the ability of the new Biden administration
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: to be able to negotiate with the Iranians, bring them
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: to the table, and get back into the JCPOA. And
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: I certainly hope that even if that was the purpose,
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: the intended effect, that that is not what happens, that
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: we're able to successfully renegotiate our way back into the JCPOA.
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you raised that because this is not
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: the first assassination of an Iranian figure by the U.S.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: or Israel this year, right? I mean, we all remember,
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: it feels like a lifetime ago, but in January, the U.S.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: killed Qasem Soleimani, who is the head of the IRGC
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: Quds Force. There were reports that the U.S. asked Israel
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: to take out an al-Qaeda leader in Tehran. I guess
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: sort of two-part question. I mean, what's your level of
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: concern about possible retaliation from Iran to these operations? And,
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: you know, Do you believe this theory that we're seeing
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: that this was designed basically to make diplomacy more hard?
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, I'm going to obviously as a member
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: of the committee, I want to wait and see what
• 50:48
  Speaker 4: the briefing tells us. But as I mentioned, I mean,
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: it comes at a very suspicious time, at a critical time.
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: And President Trump was clearly against the Iran agreement, the JCPOA.
• 51:02
  Speaker 4: and has also led a very reckless foreign policy. I mean,
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: he never developed a comprehensive or structured foreign policy, I believe.
• 51:10
  Speaker 4: A lot of it was bluster and throwing punches at
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: a lot of different countries, including some of our allies.
• 51:17
  Speaker 4: And so it's not hard for people to imagine that
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: there was some intent here to make it harder for
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: us to get back into the JCPOA. But whether that
• 51:28
  Speaker 4: intention is successful or not depends upon how The Iranians
• 51:34
  Speaker 4: and the United States and others handle this. And, yeah,
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, killing Iranians and killing Iranian scientists and
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: so forth, there is, you would suspect, and even Admiral
• 51:48
  Speaker 4: McRaven said recently that you would suspect that there's an
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: inclination among the Iranian government to try to retaliate or
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: at least seriously consider it. And so we do have
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: to be mindful and we have to be wary of that.
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And I guess there's sort of a related question
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: of what the U.S. may or may not have known, right?
• 52:09
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's all these reports that Mike Pompeo was
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: in Israel for meetings just before this happened, which raises
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: the question of like, did the U.S. assist somehow in
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: this effort? Because, you know, the scientist Mohsin Fakhrizadeh, he's
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: not a general. He's not directing troops anywhere. He's someone
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: who is seen as the key mind who could potentially
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: help develop a nuclear weapon, right? And all these technical
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: steps required for Iran to take a nuclear weapon, fit
• 52:39
  Speaker 3: it into a warhead, put it on a missile, which
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: obviously would be enormously dangerous and destabilizing. And I was
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: trying to think about like a comparison to him in some,
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: you know, US leader, if there is one, like you
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: could think about DARPA, right? Which does advanced research at
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: the Pentagon. They're credited with creating the predator drone, right?
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: Or the Department of Energy, which oversees America's nuclear weapons arsenal.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: I guess the question is, if the U.S. condones this attack,
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: do you worry that this could set a precedent that
• 53:11
  Speaker 3: could make those people, like the Secretary of Energy suddenly
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: is seen as a target that is lawful by the
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: international community? Yeah.
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: In my statement that I put out, I condemned it.
• 53:24
  Speaker 4: I think the United States should condemn it. And If
• 53:28
  Speaker 4: it's true that the United States knew about it or
• 53:32
  Speaker 4: somehow consented to it or participated in it, I think
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: it's very ironic that we were successfully containing Iran's nuclear
• 53:42
  Speaker 4: program under the JCPOA, and now what it has been
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: substituted with under the Trump administration is this recklessness, including
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: if it is borne out that the United States somehow participated,
• 53:55
  Speaker 4: and of course I don't know that yet, But if
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: it is, then this recklessness and the use of assassinations
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: in lieu of actually sitting down at the bargaining table
• 54:06
  Speaker 4: and reentering an agreement that was containing their nuclear program,
• 54:10
  Speaker 4: that to me is highly ironic. But it also, as
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: you mentioned, is dangerous. I think all around, we have
• 54:17
  Speaker 4: tried now, I mean, we've tried for generations, but we
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: have tried intensely over the last 20 years to combat terrorism.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: And you've got to imagine, again, as Admiral McRaven alluded to,
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: that this only stokes more hate and division and fear.
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: And so, again, I think it's a dangerous move all around.
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, me too. Switching gears a little bit. So President-elect
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: Biden has announced a number of senior foreign policy aides,
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: the Secretary of State, the Director of National Intelligence, his
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: National Security Advisor. What do you make of the team
• 54:55
  Speaker 3: so far? And what are you hoping to see when
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: it comes to future positions like Department of Defense or
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: CIA director or other key top positions?
• 55:04
  Speaker 4: I think he's named a top flight team. I think
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: he's named a great group of folks who have vast experience.
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: These are people who are not unlike in the Trump administration, unfortunately,
• 55:13
  Speaker 4: that we just lived through. These aren't people who are
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: new to their subject matter. They're folks who are very
• 55:19
  Speaker 4: well experienced in what they're doing. And so I have,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: you know, I'm incredibly hopeful. about the coming years under
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: the Biden administration. And they're facing some very deep challenges
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: around the world. The United States is no longer perceived
• 55:34
  Speaker 4: as the North Star on the issues that we work
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: so hard on for generations, on freedom, on democracy, on
• 55:42
  Speaker 4: human rights, on rooting out corruption. Donald Trump spent four
• 55:46
  Speaker 4: years damaging our reputation around the world, and it's going
• 55:50
  Speaker 4: to take a lot of effort to get that back.
• 55:53
  Speaker 4: And I agree with what Joe Biden has said in
• 55:55
  Speaker 4: the past, which is you can't just basically put Humpty
• 55:59
  Speaker 4: Dumpty back together again. You're going to have to build
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: back better. And I think so far it looks like
• 56:04
  Speaker 4: he's picked a good team to help him do that.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Are there like top three or four areas that you'd
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: like to see him prioritize when it comes to that
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: mission you outlined?
• 56:14
  Speaker 4: Yeah, well, there's a few things. I mean, I think
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: that for the executive branch and for Congress, every committee
• 56:20
  Speaker 4: with any kind of jurisdiction in Congress has Our number
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: one mission when the new president comes into office has
• 56:25
  Speaker 4: to be ridding ourselves in this country and around the
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: world of COVID-19. So that's got to be the top
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: priority for the president and for Congress. But then beyond that,
• 56:38
  Speaker 4: I think that we've got to work hard to get
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: back into the JCPOA. We've got to get back into
• 56:43
  Speaker 4: the Paris Climate Agreement. We've got to reengage the world
• 56:47
  Speaker 4: to counteract what I mentioned, which is that the world
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: does not perceive us in the same way that they
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: did four years ago. And more than that, the world
• 56:55
  Speaker 4: has started to go around us. You have nations like
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: China that have been able to build up their diplomatic reputation,
• 57:03
  Speaker 4: their developmental reputation, and strengthen their alliances in places like
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: Africa and Latin America because these countries are turning to
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: nations like China rather than the United States. And that
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: is directly a result of what we've seen over the
• 57:18
  Speaker 4: past four years. So he's got to go in there
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: and really re-engage in a big way. That's going to
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: be extremely important.
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: Agreed.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: So you're on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. You are,
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: I believe, running for the chair in the next Congress.
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: How can your committee help shape U.S. foreign policy? And
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: what would you prioritize in that role if you were
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: the head of the committee? A few things.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: I think, you know, I was saying before the election
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: that no matter who wins the presidency, in November, and
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: now we know that it's Joe Biden, but that Congress
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: has to stand up for its constitutional powers, specifically its
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: war powers and any kind of military engagement that the
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: United States government engages in. And over the years, what
• 58:03
  Speaker 4: I've seen is that Congress has taken a backseat, almost
• 58:07
  Speaker 4: willingly at some point sidelined itself in these very, what
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: are very tough decisions, but necessary for Congress to take.
• 58:15
  Speaker 4: So I would work on repealing the AUMFs and replacing
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: them where necessary. But I think they've been overused. I
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: think that's a broad feeling in Congress and even among
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: the American people. So we have to work on that
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: fundamental issue, which is Congress needs to not be a
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: spectator to war powers and needs to actually participate. But
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: beyond that, I think that we've got to go around
• 58:38
  Speaker 4: the world when it's safe, right, and work with the
• 58:43
  Speaker 4: Biden administration, be a partner with them, to let the
• 58:46
  Speaker 4: world know that we're back, that we're back as a
• 58:48
  Speaker 4: leader on freedom and democracy and human rights and all
• 58:51
  Speaker 4: of these things. That's going to have to be done,
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: you know, by Zoom or by Teams or whatever in
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: the meantime, right? Like whatever the platform is. But when
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: it's safe, if I was chair, I would organize us
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: fanning out in the world to meet face to face
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: with our allies to let them know that we're back.
• 59:08
  Speaker 4: That's going to be incredibly, that soft diplomacy, so to speak,
• 59:11
  Speaker 4: is going to be incredibly important. And then also, look,
• 59:15
  Speaker 4: looking at different issues through a foreign policy lens in
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: a way that we have not in the past. And
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: I'll give you a few examples of what I mean
• 59:22
  Speaker 4: by that. Climate change, climate refugees, deforestation. the rights of
• 59:28
  Speaker 4: women around the world, the rights of LGBTI individuals and others,
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: the rights of the indigenous, we tend to see those
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: issues not so much as foreign policy issues, but either
• 59:38
  Speaker 4: as domestic issues or even specialty issues. And as I've
• 59:43
  Speaker 4: run this race for foreign affairs chair, I've said, I
• 59:45
  Speaker 4: think we need to put these things front and center
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: as foreign policy issues.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And then last question
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: for you. I mean, I know you've, you put forward
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: a bill that would help increase diversity in the state department.
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: What do you think that Congress can do and the
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: Biden administration can do to help rebuild an organization that
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 3: has lost so much mindshare? So many great people have
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 3: left because they were denigrated by Rex Tillerson or Mike Pompeo.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 3: How do we recruit people back into these key foreign
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: service jobs?
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: That's a great question. I've talked about rebuilding our infrastructure
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: for diplomacy for the United States and And it's going
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: to be harder than it sounds. And the reason I
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 4: say that is because morale at the State Department is
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 4: near an all-time low. Less people are taking the Foreign
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 4: Service exam, which has always been a very prestigious thing
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: to go into the government and serve in the Foreign Service.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 4: More people are walking out the door at the Trump
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 4: administration's State Department than we've seen in a long, long time.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 4: And so you've got to go in there and fix
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 4: all of those things. And at the same time, make
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 4: sure that the diplomatic corps and the State Department reflect
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 4: the diversity, the face of this country. And that has
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 4: eluded us, not just during the Trump years, but it's
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 4: eluded us for a while. Even though there have been
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 4: folks with the best of intentions before, I'm not talking
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 4: about the Trump years, but before the Trump years, we've
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 4: never quite gotten it. And to the point now where
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 4: I think right now there are about four African-American career
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 4: ambassadors and maybe three Latino or Latina career ambassadors. So
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 4: the numbers are incredibly low. And so my legislation is
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 4: aimed at helping us improve those things. But most of all,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 4: it's got to be an issue that's on our radar
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 4: and that we're very intentional about improving.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah, agreed. Well, it sounds like a great bill. I
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: hope it moves quickly. And thank you so much for
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: your time today, Congressman Castro. I really appreciate it.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 4: Thank you.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: Thanks to Congressman Castro for joining us today. And we'll
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: talk to you later.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 6: I forgot to make my joke. I had a joke ready,
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 6: which was that Trump is like our angry ex outside
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 6: our houses in the middle of the night.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: That's it. That's it.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 5: I know where to put it. So it's a boombox
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 5: playing Rudy Giuliani.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: So stupid.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 5: I hope there's music under that to cut how bad
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 5: it was. We still on the show?
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: I can't tell.
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: All right.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: producer is Michael Martinez. Our associate producer is Jordan Waller.
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: It's mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is
• 1:02:33
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• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Quinn Lewis, Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support.
• 1:02:41
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• 1:02:45
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• 1:02:47
  Speaker 2: videos every week.