Latest / The Trauma Therapist / Guest Host: Veronique Mead, MD interviews Tony Madrid, PhD. Reversing Asthma in Kids

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Guest Host: Veronique Mead, MD interviews Tony Madrid, PhD. Reversing Asthma in Kids · The Trauma Therapist

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the special guest host series of the Trauma
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Therapist podcast, where I'm going to be handing over the
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  Speaker 1: mic to some incredible guest hosts. In each episode, you'll
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  Speaker 1: hear fresh perspectives and unique insights to inform and inspire
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  Speaker 1: you in all the while keeping the heart of this
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  Speaker 1: podcast alive. So sit back and enjoy.
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  Speaker 2: Hello everyone, my name is Veronique Mead, and I'm a
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  Speaker 2: former family doctor and assistant professor of teaching in a
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: family Practice residency program and a trauma therapist. And I
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  Speaker 2: share the information and the research about trauma as a
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  Speaker 2: respector for chronic illness on my blog Chronic Illness Trauma Studies.
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  Speaker 2: And I'm here today. Thank you so much, Guy McPherson
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  Speaker 2: of the Trauma Therapist project, because I get to host
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  Speaker 2: someone for your guest Hosts series. And I met psychologist
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  Speaker 2: doctor Tony Madrid twenty five years ago at a conference
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  Speaker 2: where his findings with reversing asthma and kids kind of
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  Speaker 2: rocked my world. So my interest in having Tony here
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  Speaker 2: today is to really share the potential degree of reversibility
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  Speaker 2: and chronic illness. So Tony, take it away and tell
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  Speaker 2: us what you've been learning over the past thirty years.
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  Speaker 3: Thanks Vernique, the group I worked with, Redwood Psychology Center
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  Speaker 3: discovered a cure for asthma. We discovered it accidentally, and
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  Speaker 3: here's how it happened. A seven year old boy with
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  Speaker 3: severe asthma was brought to our clinic to get some
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  Speaker 3: help with his asthma. He was severe. He missed school
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  Speaker 3: several days a month. He was on rescue Inhaler's all
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  Speaker 3: the time, on a full, full spectrum of medications, and
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  Speaker 3: he frequently ended up in the emergency room. His mom
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  Speaker 3: brought him in, this old boy, and we did everything
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  Speaker 3: we could to help him, and nothing worked. The mother, however,
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  Speaker 3: continued to get some counseling for herself. She was a
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  Speaker 3: student at the university here in town and a single mom,
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  Speaker 3: and she talked to us about the usual things that
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  Speaker 3: troubles students in college. And one day she looked wiped
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  Speaker 3: out and we said, what's how come you're so exhausted,
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  Speaker 3: And she said, I was up all night last night
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  Speaker 3: with my son. I had to bring him the emergency
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  Speaker 3: room again. And you know what's really funny about this
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  Speaker 3: is that even though I do everything I can for
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  Speaker 3: this boy, I don't have any strong feelings for him.
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  Speaker 3: I don't feel like I love him. Well, that opened
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  Speaker 3: up our eyes because that's exactly at Laus and Kennel
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  Speaker 3: to neoonatologists at Case Western in Cleveland, what they said
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  Speaker 3: happens with the mother who doesn't bond, and they talked
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  Speaker 3: about maternal infant bonding, brought it to the world, and
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  Speaker 3: what they said was that if a mother doesn't bond,
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  Speaker 3: she's going to not feel tremendous love for the kid.
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  Speaker 3: And here's what happens. Here's what brings about non bonding.
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  Speaker 3: If the mother is separated from the child at birth,
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  Speaker 3: if she has grief in her own life with the
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  Speaker 3: child of at the time of birth or during the pregnancy,
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  Speaker 3: the chances are she's not going to bond or fall
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  Speaker 3: in love with her baby. So we said to her
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  Speaker 3: what happened during the pregnancy, and she said it was
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  Speaker 3: a train wreck. The father of the baby ran away
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  Speaker 3: and left me all by myself, and we went to
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  Speaker 3: the hospital when I was ready to deliver, and my
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  Speaker 3: mother accompanied me to the hospital whom I don't like
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  Speaker 3: at all and criticized me throughout the entire delivery process.
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  Speaker 3: I had a nurse who was mean to me, and
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  Speaker 3: I found out she was mean to everybody who was
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  Speaker 3: on Medicaid, and the doctor who followed me through the
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  Speaker 3: pregnancy couldn't make it to the delivery, and I had
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  Speaker 3: a new doctor, and then my son was born. Sick
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  Speaker 3: went to the neonatal intensive care unit and stayed there
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  Speaker 3: for six days while I went home. When I came
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  Speaker 3: back and got the baby, I looked at the baby
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  Speaker 3: and I said, are you sure this is my baby?
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  Speaker 3: And that was a clear indication that she didn't bond
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  Speaker 3: with the baby. So we tried a couple of things.
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  Speaker 3: We tried hypnotizing her to relieve all of the conflicts
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  Speaker 3: during her birth, during the birth of the baby, and
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  Speaker 3: after that was done, and it was done quickly because
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  Speaker 3: it was seven years ago all the stuff happened, so
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  Speaker 3: she had resolved a lot of it through time, and
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  Speaker 3: then we had to imagine a new berth. That was
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  Speaker 3: the last of it. We kept on seeing her for
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  Speaker 3: a couple of months, and then she was going to
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  Speaker 3: leave the state and mentioned on the way on the
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  Speaker 3: way out the door, she said, remember that time we
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  Speaker 3: did the thing about the hospital And we said, no,
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  Speaker 3: what do you mean? She says, remember you changed the
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  Speaker 3: birth and I says, oh yeah, will you remember that?
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  Speaker 3: She says, my kids asthma went away that day went away.
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  Speaker 3: She says, no more medication, no more wheezing at night,
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  Speaker 3: no more emergency room visits. And the only time and
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  Speaker 3: no more medication. And the only time that it came
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  Speaker 3: back was when he was visiting his father up north.
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  Speaker 3: Father phoned me and said, hey, he's got wheezing. He's
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  Speaker 3: wheezing again, and I said, bring him home right away.
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  Speaker 3: He came right back home. I grabbed him, we sat
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  Speaker 3: down on the couch, and the wheezing stopped and has
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  Speaker 3: not returned.
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  Speaker 2: I have to say, I share this story all the time, Tony.
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  Speaker 2: It's just something we don't care about in medicine, and
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  Speaker 2: it's just so dramatic.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah it is, thank you.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So we started searching around and saying, I wonder if
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  Speaker 3: there's any other kids in this clinic who have asthma.
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  Speaker 3: And we found a couple, and sure enough, we did
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  Speaker 3: the same thing with the mothers, with the mothers, not
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  Speaker 3: with the kid with the mothers, and the asthma went away.
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  Speaker 3: Let me give you an example. With the asthma went away.
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  Speaker 3: There was this mom whose kid was asthmatic about nine
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  Speaker 3: years old, and she was in the clinic sceneing something
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  Speaker 3: for some other reason, and she mentioned that her kid
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  Speaker 3: had asthma, and we said, well, what happened at the
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  Speaker 3: birth And she says, oh, I had a baby die
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  Speaker 3: of crib death six months before I got pregnant. So
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  Speaker 3: we said, that's that's an indication of non bonding. So
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  Speaker 3: we did the same thing, cleared out the grief that
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  Speaker 3: she was feeling about the crib death baby, had to
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  Speaker 3: imagine a new birth. Within three days, the kids asthma
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  Speaker 3: went away, and she phoned us and she said, I
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  Speaker 3: gotta tell you, I'm looking out the window at my
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  Speaker 3: boy who's playing soccer in the backyard for the first
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  Speaker 3: time ever. He's able to run and play. No more asthma,
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  Speaker 3: no more medication, I'm sure. And we had goose bumps too. Yeah,
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  Speaker 3: we said, uh what, Uh, I wonder how many kids
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  Speaker 3: with asthma have a history of not bonding. And we
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  Speaker 3: did three studies and the studies show that we had
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  Speaker 3: thirty mothers and kids in each of the groups, and
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  Speaker 3: in the group of normal kids no asthma, non bonding
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  Speaker 3: seems to occur about twenty five percent of the time.
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  Speaker 3: In this study, by comparison the asthma kids, eighty five
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  Speaker 3: percent of them didn't bond with their mothers eighty five percent,
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  Speaker 3: And both studies were the same. The first was the
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  Speaker 3: low twenties were kids without asthma and a low eighties
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  Speaker 3: kids with asthma. So we were convinced, and then we
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  Speaker 3: started wondering how many of these kids with asthma can
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  Speaker 3: really be cured, can really be cured with bonding therapy.
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  Speaker 3: And the bonding therapy we discovered was just really simple,
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  Speaker 3: find out what the impediment to falling in love with
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  Speaker 3: their baby at birth was. Find out what that impediment is.
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  Speaker 3: It could be removal from the mom, or the mom
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  Speaker 3: going through some grief, clean up and heal the impediments,
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  Speaker 3: the non bonding events, and then have mom imagine a
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  Speaker 3: new birth. We treated thirty seven kids. Thirty one of
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  Speaker 3: them got better. The six who did didn't get better
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  Speaker 3: were all teenagers who don't give a darn being connected
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  Speaker 3: with their parents anymore. They're on their way out. But
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  Speaker 3: all of the kids, even infants, even infants, got better.
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  Speaker 3: Let me give you an example. A mom was in
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  Speaker 3: a high school where they allowed mothers to bring their
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  Speaker 3: babies to class, and she brought her baby to class,
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  Speaker 3: and the reason that this baby had asthma was real clear.
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  Speaker 3: Her mother and father were ashamed of her that she
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  Speaker 3: got pregnant when she was fifteen, so they shipped her
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  Speaker 3: off to an aunt in the Midwest, and the aunt
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  Speaker 3: was also ashamed of her and filled her with guilt.
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  Speaker 3: Mom came back, Mom delivered the baby back east, came back,
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  Speaker 3: and her baby had asthma.
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  Speaker 4: M hm.
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  Speaker 3: So it was real easy having her Imagine getting rid
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  Speaker 3: of all of that guilt that was laid on her
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  Speaker 3: by her family, and then imagine a new birth and
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  Speaker 3: within a week the baby's asthma was resolved a week,
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  Speaker 3: within a week.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So the uh, the treatment of non bonding, the treatment
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  Speaker 3: for a mother who didn't bond with their baby is
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  Speaker 3: real simple. You find out what the non bonding event
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  Speaker 3: was is either they were separated from their babies at
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  Speaker 3: birth or there was something going on in their whole,
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  Speaker 3: in their own lives that were that was very painful,
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  Speaker 3: something like they lost a parent, they broke up with
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  Speaker 3: their boyfriend, they're strung out on drugs. Uh, They're they're through,
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  Speaker 3: they're going through some physical problems of themselves or they
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  Speaker 3: are extremely depressed. And when you find out what the
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  Speaker 3: non bonding event is, you heal it. And most of
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  Speaker 3: the time it's already healed with with a long period
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  Speaker 3: of time that's elapsedence of birth. And if if it
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  Speaker 3: isn't healed, then you heal it through any means you have.
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  Speaker 3: You heal it through and we do it through hypnosis
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  Speaker 3: and e md R. You can heal it through art therapy.
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  Speaker 3: You could heal it through prayer, you could heal it
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  Speaker 3: through meditation, But any way that's possible to heal it.
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  Speaker 3: And as you reminded me, a mother who doesn't bond
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  Speaker 3: lies in the weeds waiting for an opportunity.
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  Speaker 2: I thought it was you who told me about this
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  Speaker 2: like that, how we're all designed innately to bond.
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  Speaker 3: That's exactly it.
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  Speaker 2: And that something gets in the way, and that's what
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  Speaker 2: you've been doing with the bonding therapy.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, something doing and the other things that get in
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  Speaker 3: the way. Ka Klaus and Kennel, these two guys from
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  Speaker 3: Case Western. They say that if a mother has twins,
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  Speaker 3: most likely shield bond with one but not the other.
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  Speaker 3: And if a mother has a C section, delivery, chances
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  Speaker 3: are she's not going to bond. And if a mother
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  Speaker 3: is medicated so much as she doesn't know what's going on,
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  Speaker 3: she most likely is not going to bond. We have
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  Speaker 3: some mothers who say they doped me up so much
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  Speaker 3: that I couldn't tell if it was a boy or
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  Speaker 3: a girl, and I just wanted to go to sleep.
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  Speaker 3: So after you clear the non bonding event, then you
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  Speaker 3: have them. Imagine a new birth. A new birth. I
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  Speaker 3: had a mother before I knew about all this. I
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  Speaker 3: had a mother in therapy whose kid was failing to thrive.
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  Speaker 3: The kid would go, the child would go to the
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  Speaker 3: hospital and put on weight, come back home, lose weight,
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  Speaker 3: back and forth, five or six times. The hospital sent
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  Speaker 3: the mother and father over to me, and I did
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  Speaker 3: what I could. The mother said that her father died
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  Speaker 3: during the pregnancy, so I helped her get over that grief,
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  Speaker 3: but I didn't have her go through a new birth,
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  Speaker 3: and without that, the kid didn't get any better. So
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  Speaker 3: having a new birth is essential.
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  Speaker 2: And you, Tony, you actually go through each well, each process.
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  Speaker 2: I think conception, each trimester, Yes, tell me, tell us
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  Speaker 2: a little more, share a bit more about that.
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  Speaker 3: When I have them imagine a new birth. I say,
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  Speaker 3: imagine what it's like without all of this grief to
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  Speaker 3: find out you're pregnant and to be happy about that.
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  Speaker 3: And when you're happy about that, nod or tell me.
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  Speaker 3: And then go through the first trimester and at the
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  Speaker 3: end of the first trimester everything is okay. Let me know,
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  Speaker 3: second trimester, third trimester, and then the baby is born
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  Speaker 3: quick and easy, and you hold the baby. And when
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  Speaker 3: you know that, nod. And then I say, and you
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  Speaker 3: know the baby knows you, knows your heartbeat, knows the
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  Speaker 3: sound of your voice, knows what you sound like, and
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  Speaker 3: you know the baby. And when you know all of that, nod.
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  Speaker 3: And then you nurse and you go to sleep with
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  Speaker 3: the baby, and then after a while you go home.
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  Speaker 3: So take and they can go through that very very quickly.
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  Speaker 3: That's something that they've wanted for a long time. The
• 14:38
  Speaker 3: thing we found out accidentally. How much time do we got.
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  Speaker 2: Ernie, you know, we have about five minutes?
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  Speaker 3: Okay, I'll go quick and dirty through this thing. It
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  Speaker 3: happens to mothers who don't bond and the kid doesn't
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  Speaker 3: have ASTHM, but they just know that there's something wrong.
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  Speaker 3: I was teaching at the University of San Francisco about this,
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  Speaker 3: and one of the mothers raised her hands. She says,
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  Speaker 3: you know, I mean one of the students raise her hand.
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  Speaker 3: She says, I have an eight year old daughter. She's
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  Speaker 3: a wonderful daughter. Everybody loves her intensely except me. There's
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  Speaker 3: something missing, and I think I know what it is now.
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  Speaker 3: My brother died during the pregnancy. She says, can I
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  Speaker 3: get fixed? And I says, well, let's see, so hypnotize.
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  Speaker 3: You remove any of the sadness that was involved about
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  Speaker 3: her a brother dying, and then have her imagine being
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: pregnant when she was happy, happy through the pregnancy. That
• 15:33
  Speaker 3: was the last class of the semester. And a couple
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  Speaker 3: of years later, I was recruiting kids for our next
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  Speaker 3: asthma study and I was recruiting them at a counselor meeting,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: a counselor group, and this lady raises her hand. She says, hey, everybody,
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  Speaker 3: this works. She says, I had an eight year old daughter,
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  Speaker 3: didn't really love her to did ten minutes of rebonding,
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  Speaker 3: and my daughter and I have been like this ever since,
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  Speaker 3: and it's been ten years. So it works with non
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  Speaker 3: asthma cases We've had a number of mothers come in
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  Speaker 3: and say, you know, there's something wrong. Oh, here's a
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: great one. I got this. Mother and daughter are in
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  Speaker 3: counseling somewhere else. They've been in counseling for a long time.
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  Speaker 3: The daughter's twelve, and when the daughter started beating up
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  Speaker 3: the mother, the counselor said, I think this is a
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  Speaker 3: little bit more serious than I can handle. Why don't
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: you go see those guys over at a Redwood psychology center.
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  Speaker 3: I think it has to do with bonding. So the
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: mother comes in and we say what. Oh. The mother
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: comes in, We see her in the waiting room. The
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: mother and the daughter are screaming at one another across
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: a crowded waiting room, screaming at one another. So we
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  Speaker 3: get the mother and say what happened at birth? She says, oh,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: she says, I was in jail. I delivered in jail.
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  Speaker 3: They gave the baby to my mother, who took care
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  Speaker 3: of her for six more months until they got out
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: of jail. She said, what were you in jail for it?
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: She says drugs, And she says, but I'm clean and
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: sober now. So he says, oh, okay, So we got
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  Speaker 3: her up, had her imagine this birth without drugs and
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: the baby could stay with you. The next week they
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: come in for the next session of therapy. The daughter
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  Speaker 3: is lying on the couch across her mother's lap, the
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: mother's painting heading her head. It worked, It worked, Okay.
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  Speaker 2: It's yeah. It's what's amazing is how many different ways
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  Speaker 2: that this bonding can get interfered with, and how normalizing
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: and non judgmental and supportive. This perspective is about it
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: not being the mother or the child's fault, not the
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: actla's fault exactly.
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  Speaker 3: It's an accident. And for those of us who are
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: you know, trans personal and psychogenerretic and all of that stuff,
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: accidents don't occur, but accidents do occur. An accident of birth.
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: It's not the mom's fault and it's not the kid's fault.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this could be a good landing place. Okay,
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: how about you tell folks where they can find you
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: or reach you.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: Sure they can find me by emailing me Madrid at
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: Sonic dot net, or they can phone the clinic at
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: seven oh seven eight six five twelve hundred.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: And you have a website?
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: Is it?
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: Is it?
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Asthma busters dot com.
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: I think now it's amib Sonoma at webly dot com. Yeah,
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: that's it. It maybe somewhere at weebley dot.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Com for Maternal Infant bonding.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: For information about maternal infant bonding.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you also have a training manual, You've written
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: a book that's available on Amazon, and you have a
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: lot of thirty over thirty publications and a lot of resources,
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: including a booklet and more information.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah. If a therapist wants to know about this, he
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: can learn about it very very quickly. Just contact me
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: and I'll turn them to the places where he could.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Learn it, or she might too, or she might great.
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much, Tony.
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: Thank you very pleasure.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: Bye bye. As gave Homons