Latest / The Bold Lounge / Amy Shoenthal: Beyond the Setback- Bold Decisions for a Brighter Future

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Amy Shoenthal: Beyond the Setback- Bold Decisions for a Brighter Future · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Leigh Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: Every week, we'll hear from someone who has taken a leap or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Whether they face challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: These impactful stories will leave you feeling motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be freed.
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: Tune in and get ready to be inspired.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Today I have Amy Schoenthal.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: She is a leadership expert and author of the USA Today bestselling book the Setback Cycle about how today's prominent founders and leaders overcome obstacles to find success.
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: Amy has been studying the journeys of successful leaders for more than two decades as a top contributor to Forbes, women and Harvard Business Review.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: Amy highlights underestimated innovators dedicated to solving society's greatest challenges.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: She's interviewed high-profile leaders such as Senator Mazie Harano, tracy Ellis Ross, norma Kamali, robin Arzon and others.
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Amy frequently speaks at conferences and within organizations about career development, leadership, unexpected pivots, working motherhood and more working motherhood and more.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: She also works with organizations to help their employees and managers confidently lead through tumultuous times, offering the tools to help teams navigate workplace setbacks together.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the lounge.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so happy to be here.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So I'm excited to talk about setbacks and their connection to kind of being resilient and bold and moving through the process which you've beautifully framed in your book.
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: But let's start off with boldness.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And what is your definition of bold?
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: What does it look like in your world.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: I think bold is defining success on your own terms and starting to be confident in using your voice and really bringing your voice to the center of the conversation and not hiding in the shadows.
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: To me, that's what bold is, and too often I find people are like afraid to really move into the center, and and so I want to encourage people to to be less afraid to do so and to be bold.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: Excellent.
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: And when you think about that, do you think that that happens at a certain time or that's an evolving definition, meaning like you're moving into that your entire life or you're?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: born that way.
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: I think it depends.
• 2:54
  Speaker 2: It can be all of those things, it could be none of those things.
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: I think some people sure they're born a little more confident.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: They're going to naturally be a little bit more bold.
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: Of course there are societal messages that are given to people to encourage them to maybe hide their voice or not trust their full experience.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: So they're less afraid to be vocal and so they're going to be less bold.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: And I also think it's frankly just age factors into this.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: I think the more experience you have, the more you learn to trust your experience, to trust your instincts, and therefore you start to become more bold as you attain more life experience and attain the knowledge and the wisdom that comes with that level of experience.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with you.
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: I think you come into your own value as you get older too, I think.
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: Just when you're younger, I think you're sometimes seeking approval or looking for someone to say, yeah, good job, you did it, or you know it's, you're on track, which is always positive.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: But I think we, you know, certainly in my early fifties, I think I, hopefully I'm standing more in my value than ever, absolutely, and wanting to do that more often and really hopefully inspire other people to do that too, because absolutely it's a ripple effect, you know, amy, like when you, when you are moving through things and people see you kind of oh wow, that would have really set me back, or I can't believe that happened there, but she's still on her feet.
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: You know, those are bold moments, I think, and they inspire others as well.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: Yep, and part of that is talking about the setbacks and the obstacles you've faced and the fact that this didn't always come easy to me and there was a lot of struggle to get to this point, but I think being vocal about it is what makes you bold and what inspires others to make their own bold moves Right.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: So, when you think about your definition, is there a memorable bold moment for you that comes to mind?
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: We have lots of them in our life, on different planes of boldness too.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: Is there one that pops for you?
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: The one that I've been talking about most recently, especially after the book came out, was the fact that I started to be more vocal about my own career setback, something that, as it was happening, I was sort of ignoring it and pretending that everything was fine.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: And I think that's something that a lot of us tend to do Everything's fine, I can deal with this.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Other people have it worse.
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: I'm going to barge forward and press on without pausing to consider that their own experience maybe, yes.
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: Others have it worse.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: I'm going to barge forward and press on without pausing to consider that their own experience may be, yes, others have it worse, but their own experience is valid.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And so when I came back from maternity leave, I was removed from several accounts that I had really taken a lot of pride in building and running prior to my leave.
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: And when I came back and this happened, I was told it's a gift, take the time.
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: You have a new baby at home.
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: And it didn't quite feel right, like I didn't want to lose the accounts.
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: I still took pride in my work, I still had ambition and I didn't use my voice at the time.
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: It felt wrong, but I didn't trust the experience I was having.
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: I thought if everyone around me is saying that this is the way it should be, then I should listen to them and I should trust them more than I trust my own instinct, my own feeling, my own intuition that something is off, you know, and I didn't want to be seen as a squeaky wheel, I didn't want to be seen as complaining, and in the work environment I was in, that there were definitely repercussions for being, you know, too outspoken.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: They really kind of valued you, like falling in line and just like taking orders, and so it was tough, you know, and so it was not bold in that moment.
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: But eventually a coworker came up to me and said I saw what happened to you after maternity leave, and I'm leaving the company because I don't want to become a parent here, cause I see how they treat parents.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: And that was like a wake up call for me, like wow, because I didn't speak up or acknowledge the situation or try to make it better for myself.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: Other people saw, and I didn't make it better for the people who come after me, and that's a problem, you know, like I didn't use my voice, I wasn't bold, and that didn't only impact me, it impacted the experience that others were having.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: So I finally started to speak up.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: Eventually I got laid off and started to squeak, and then you got started to squeak.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think they were not like quite so related, it was years later I was caught up in a round of layoffs.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: I don't want to you know, but it didn't align for your future.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: No, no.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: But once I was laid off, you know, they offered me some like a very small severance package, which I ended up not taking because I had the book coming out and I wanted to be able to use my voice, because I said, you know what, I was so silent in those years when I was experiencing my setback.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Now that I am, you know, no longer affiliated with this company, I'm going to tell the truth, I'm going to use my voice and I'm going to be very, very fair, but I'm going to be candid, you know.
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: And so I've just spoken very objectively and very candidly about my experience and, sure enough, people are coming out of the woodwork saying that they had similar experiences, saying that, okay, I'm about to go on maternity leave, how do I secure that?
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: My job will be there when I return?
• 8:05
  Speaker 2: And I'm helping people through that.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: And my biggest piece of advice is be vocal, be clear about what you need, what you want, what you can do, and try to figure out where you fit in, what you want to do and how that correlates to the needs of the business that you're working on.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Because if I had come back and I had said this doesn't feel right, I went on maternity leave.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: I came back, you moved me off of my accounts and now I have a smaller role.
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: That's not cool.
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: I could have said that very easily.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: It would have alerted the folks, the decision makers, and maybe we wouldn't have found a solution immediately.
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: I could have alerted them and we could have started figuring it out.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: You know, no, but there was no villain here.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: No one was trying to like maliciously, you know, push me out.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: It's just, it's what happened and it set me into a career setback and I think being vocal and being bold in that moment and using my voice would have would have changed the outcome a little bit.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I've certainly had experiences in my career where I have been vocal, I haven't fallen in line and I have had the repercussions of that.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: So they're, you know, finding the sweet spot of where you feel true to yourself is what you have to do, right, exactly, and I think it's personal for everyone.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: So, like what you do, what I do may be different than you know what someone else does, but I think, hearing the possibilities of knowing that you can have a voice and you can learn from maybe there was a moment you know, you missed, like you said you, you wished you, you know, maybe had spoken up and it could have been different, but you didn't, but you still, you know, were able to use your voice.
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: Now, through the book, to help others, and I think that's the whole point, is that we make it better for everyone who comes behind us, right, you know, I always think about that my daughter.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: So my daughter is 27 and I don't want her to have to do anything I had to do, in that sense, kind of go through some of the junk that I've gone through.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: I realized that we learn and we should let our children, you know, have challenges.
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: I don't mean like she can't solve problems, but there's just some things that I think have happened in the workplace that I, you know, just don't ever want her to experience.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah Well, we want progress, we want, we want to see progress.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: We don't.
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: I don't like the attitude of like I had to deal with this, so should you like.
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: I want progress, I want it to be better, and that's one of the big reasons I'm speaking out about my experience, because I want people to know that, even with all the tools at your disposal, like I'm an outspoken, confident person.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: I had a senior role, I have all the privilege and still and I had I worked with nice people who were well-meaning and they wanted to support me, and still this happened Right, so you could be surrounded by all the resources in the world, you could be at the you know kindest work culture, work environment possible, and still decisions are made that send you into a career setback, and so you need to be aware and you need to.
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: You don't have to come at people with, like how dare you do this?
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: You can just come at people with a help me understand.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: Like I'm not sure you realize what the implications of this decision are, but here you know, or like here's how I'm feeling.
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, let's talk about it.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: You know, maybe there's some stuff going on that I don't know about.
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: Let's, let's talk about it, let's have a conversation, let's come to a collective agreement about, like, what makes sense for everyone.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you definitely don't have to come at anyone in their face or anything like that.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point for people to hear but just kind of.
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not sure you knew, but this made me feel not valued, that I worked really hard on those accounts and now I don't have them and I've created relationships with those and now I don't get to talk to them.
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: They might be upset, you know.
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to consider those types of things.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: I mean just starting.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: There is a nice starting their place, yeah.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: Lead with curiosity, just lead with genuine curiosity and start a conversation, and that is like you can be kind and you can be curious, and that's still using your voice.
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: You know, I think people hear.
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Use your voice, be vocal, be bold, and they think you have to be like screaming you don't know.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: You just have to have a conversation and it's hard, it's uncomfortable I don't want to minimize that Like it's definitely uncomfortable to bring these things up, but if you can do it again, leading with kindness, leading with curiosity and just sort of being as vocal as you're as you possibly can to get to the outcome you want, it's very important.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think bold's a continuum, so it has a very loud side.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: So, like, an example of a loud moment was me in 2020, when I just got to a point in my my job where I had to choose me and I quit my job without having a job, and had to figure it out from there, but it was incredibly freeing and full of fear at the same time.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: And you know, here I am, four years later.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: Aren't most things freeing and full of?
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: fear.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: Like that is always the day, like they are both true.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think you know from the experience, on the quiet side is this some of the things that we say to ourselves too.
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: Like you know, those are quiet, bold moments.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: You know, I am enough, I, it is okay for me to speak up, I can have this conversation.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: It doesn't mean it has less fear or more comfort than the other end of the bold continuum, but you are using your voice and you can do that and I love the lead with curiosity and you can always be kind.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: So I think those are things that we can utilize and take away for, like any moments that we have, whether it's a relationship conversation or career conversation or just a friend to friend, we can lead with curiosity and kindness.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: So when you define a setback, so we're all starting at the same place.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: What is the definition of a setback when it comes to your book, the Setback Cycle?
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: The reason I call my book the Setback Cycle is because I had been writing about because I'm also a freelance journalist, and I had been writing about because I'm also a freelance journalist and I had been writing about founders and leaders and their career journey that got them to build the big thing that, you know, is profiling them for.
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: And in every story I noticed this theme or this pattern and it seemed to be like the same formula and I didn't understand what it was.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: And I started reading all these business advice books and psychology books and it wasn't always this like learning from your mistakes or, you know, think again.
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Or like fail big and learn like it wasn't, or even like post traumatic growth, like these stories that I was seeing.
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: They kind of touched on all of those things, but there was no one term that encompassed everything I was seeing.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And then I came upon the, a reversal or check in progress.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: So it's when you're on a path and you're moving forward and then you're unexpectedly bumped backwards.
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: This could be, you know, in a small way, this could be in a dramatic, life-changing way.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: This could be so subtle that you don't even realize that you've been bumped backwards, you know.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: And so I think that really encompassed the definition of a setback is what encompassed all these stories I was seeing and I was like, oh, that's it, that's what I'm seeing.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: And so then I started researching.
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: You know what books have been written about setbacks and how we work through them in our careers, and all I really found was like sports books, you know, and how we come back from a like, from setback, to comeback.
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: You know there's definitely overlap in terms of like themes and principles, of course, but there was no business book about how we it's not.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: Also, also, I didn't want to make it about how to come back from setbacks.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: I wanted to make it about how to understand what a setback is and how to work through it to just get to that point of clarity and confidence and an understanding of what you've learned and what you need to move forward, whatever that looks like.
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: And so that's how I came upon the definition of a setback, because it really was the overall umbrella term that I was seeing in all the stories.
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so someone could have a setback and they don't even know it.
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: Yep, so many people sleepwalk into setbacks without even realizing it Because, again, like I was saying before, so many of us we just start to like toast and we think, ah, maybe I should make a change, but it's easier to not, it's easier to just keep doing what I've been doing.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: I've been working here for so long.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I might as well stay, I might as well not leave.
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: It would be too hard.
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: But not making a decision is making an active decision, you know, and change is hard.
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: But staying the course and staying on a journey that's no longer serving you is much worse, because that and that's how we sleepwalk into setbacks.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: We just ignore them, we pretend they're not happening.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: And I have a couple of tools in the book that help wake you up.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: If you think you're sleepwalking into a setback and this is what I did, you know, I thought everything's fine, this is great, and it wasn't until that coworker came to me and said I saw what happened to you.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: That woke me up it woke me up and that's when I realized like I had been sleepwalking through a setback.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: Because I didn't trust myself.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: I said, oh, I must be just like making a bigger deal of this than it is Like I.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: You know, I didn't trust myself when she said that to me.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: I was like, oh my God, I can't be alone here.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: And sure enough, I started going to psychologists, I started talking about it and sure enough, it's very, very common for people to sleepwalk into their own setback.
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: Right, I think the cost of inaction people underestimate a lot Greatly underestimate, incredibly.
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: When we think about being bold, we think, which I think is a very pragmatic, thoughtful process.
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: One of the myths of being bold, I think, is oh, you look and don't even think about it, you just do it.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: That's more of like on television or in a movie.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Usually, when you're making a bold move or, like you did you know toward the end of your tenure, is you know what you're making a bold move?
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Or you, like you did you know towards the end of your tenure, is you know what you're doing, like I would know when I was sending up smoke, when I was going to be seen or on the radar or not, maybe seen as in being in line, like I knew when I was doing it, yeah, but I also know, okay, this could happen or this could happen, and if that happens, then I'm going to probably do this, you know.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: So it's a very thoughtful process, but I think we'll overthink and don't move into action.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Sometimes, or in your examples, it sounds like what we can learn is like we don't even know it's happening, because we're just assimilating or going native with what we're, the environment we're in.
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Oh well, if they think it, I guess it's right.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, trusting other people's words or trusting other people's analysis of the situation without putting your perspective in it, that really sends you into a setback.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: And so many people do that, especially women, because we've been somewhat conditioned to not trust our own experience sometimes.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: Right and when it's a cycle, can it happen multiple times in someone's life?
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: Can you like?
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: Get out of it in one place and then get into another place and you maybe do it a different way or maybe one.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: You know one of the phases you get stuck in or you don't you're not able to get out of.
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Okay, so it is something that setbacks are a universal human experience.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Whether in your career, in relationships, in any aspect of life, you will one day encounter some sort of setback.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: If you're a parent, you know getting.
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and once.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: But once you understand the cycle, you know how to work through it, you know how to recognize it, you know how to understand it and you can work through it just a little more productively, because now you just have a new perspective about what's happening to you and how you can eventually emerge.
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: So let's jump there.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: That's a great segue to the phases.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the phases of the cycle.
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: So there's four establish, embrace, explore, emerge Can you walk us through those and help us understand each one of them.
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: Yes, so phase one is established because, like I said, sometimes we don't even realize we're in a setback and that's why I have some tools in the book that help wake you up, to see if maybe you need to change course or reconsider something or work your way through the setback cycle a little more, I guess, consciously than you have actively.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and so one of the exercises I have is the alarm clock checklist and two of the questions you can ask in the alarm clock checklist is number one, what am I energized by?
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: And number two, what am I disengaged with.
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: And if you can write down your answers every day or every couple of days over the course of a month and you look back at your answers and you even map like your answers to the activities you had on that day, you might come up with some patterns and realize like, oh, hey, this isn't working, like I'm really disengaged on the days I have this and I'm really energized on the days I get to do this.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: And how can you recalibrate your day to do more of what you're energized by and less of what you're disengaged with?
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: There's a lot more in the alarm clock checklist, but those are just two things I always suggest for people because it's a good, it's just like a good journaling prompt to get information about yourself, and the more information we have about ourselves, the more we can do with it.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: And that's what brings me to phase two of the setback cycle, which is embrace.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Embrace is the worst phase.
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: It's just the worst because this is when you really have to digest the information and like sit with how you're feeling about your setback.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: And when I say embrace, I don't necessarily mean like we welcome it with open arms and a big giant hug and smile Like we are just acknowledging that this is the reality, embracing the situation that we're in and figuring out what to do.
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: Well, we're not really doing anything yet.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: We're just collecting information, and so you have to be a little introspective if you're kind of frozen in that in between and not sure how to move forward.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: There's a lot you can do to try to.
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: Just a lot of people will say, like don't look at the past, look forward.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: But really you do have to look at the past.
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: You got to cohabitate with it.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: You got to cohabitate with it.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: That's a great way to put it.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Feel the feels like I know you're my roommate right now, but we're going to figure something out.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Just get, just collect the information.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, how are you feeling?
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Why is this making you feel a certain way?
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: Where has this come up before in your life?
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: You know, once you start to map out patterns, you just get a better sense of what's happening, what you can deal with, what you can handle, what you're good at, what you're not good at and again, like what you want to do.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Moving forward, and once you collect the information and you say, okay, I have a handle on what happened, I know what I did, I know what I didn't do, I know what I want, I know what I don't want, that's when you move into phase three, which is explore.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Explore is like a reward for getting through embrace.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: Explore is the most fun phase because this is where we just get to play.
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: We get to just experiment, get curious, but we don't have to commit to anything yet.
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: We're just seeing what's possible.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: And I always say that people could perpetually remain in the explore phase because it's just a great place to be.
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: You're always seizing new opportunities, exploring your creativity and just like talking to people about what else might be, you know, on the table for you.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: So part of this is you know, I have a curiosity quiz to help you dredge up that deep-rooted curiosity that's always inside you.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Because, again, like the aftermath of a setback is like a really great moment to tap into your creativity, to go to that thing you always said you might do one day.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: Like that day might be today, because when the walls fall down, the whole room opens up, and so this is the time to say, all right, this is my reality, this is the situation, but what can I do with it?
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: What can I make of it?
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: And so that's the explore phase.
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: You turn to your community, you test ideas out, you figure out how to really find the intersection of your passion with your strength and you move forward.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And once you get again like that clarity on the path forward, that's when you get to phase four emerge, which is amazing.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: You have come out of your setback.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: There's still a couple of things you have to navigate because, if you think about all the planning and the introspection and the exploration, it's a lot of work.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: And so when you get to emerge, it's like oh, I've made all these plans, I have all these strategies, I have all the clarity in the world, but now you actually have to take that step forward, and that can be a little scary.
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: I always equate this to New Year's Day.
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: Think about the end of December.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: You're like I have all these resolutions, I'm going to make all these changes January 1st.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I can't wait.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I'm going to drink more water, I'm going to go on walks every day, like this is the new person I'm going to be in the new year.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: And then you know you're all excited and you, you know the new year rolls around, and then you're like, oh, I have to do it now.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Right, you have to take action, you have to take action.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: And so you could have all the best intention, but taking action can be hard, and so that's the beginning of the emerge phase.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: You kind of have to make sure you are clear on any remaining barriers that you're facing and figure out how to step around them so that you can move forward.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: And I also like to tell people make it a tiptoe, don't jump.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't have to be this huge leap, it can just be one step towards it's easier if it's one step instead of a huge.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: Otherwise the big thing seems too far away, too hard, too unattainable, and you'll never make that first step.
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: So as you were talking, I was thinking about the bold framework.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: So it's believe, own, learn design.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So each one of those, as a, you know you walk through certain steps.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: You go through certain activities.
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: As a, you know you walk through certain steps.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: You go through certain activities when you think about beliefs or our you know what we believe about ourselves.
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: When we're in this setback cycle and starting to go through it, what are key things we need to cue into around what we're hearing ourselves say to ourselves or what we're feeling, you know, in the sense of oh well, that never worked before.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: You know the things we say to ourselves.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Are there certain tips or tricks that we should be aware of around our beliefs when we're in this.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: I have two answers for this.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So number one, that voice that comes in that claims to be your beliefs, it might just be your inner critic.
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: And thoughts are not facts, they are just thoughts, right.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: And that inner critic can get really loud, especially after you've gone through Mm-hmm.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: And thoughts are not facts, they are just thoughts, right.
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: And that inner critic can get really loud, especially after you've gone through a setback.
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: And so one of the tools you can use in that moment is to name your inner critic and to give it a whole personality and a voice and a you know physical representation you know in your brain, and a you know physical representation you know in your brain.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: So my inner critic, her name is Roz.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: She has like a raspy like cigarette smoking kind of voice and she's like the monsters Inc.
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: Totally I have, so it's her and for me.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: you know this is my personal inner critic, so when I think of like who's really criticizing me or trying to hold me back, it's sort of like a combination of my friend's parents from growing up.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: I don't know why it's these people.
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: But it's like the mom standing outside on the stoop smoking a cigarette being like get in the backyard, what are you doing?
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: You went too far down the block.
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: You know, like you can write a book, stay here, you know, get in the backyard.
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: And so it's that person trying to hold you back.
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: So when you get that inner critic's voice in your head, if you've personified it as a separate entity, that's not you.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: You won't internalize that voice as your beliefs and the words and the statements that will hold you back, that will tell you you're not capable.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: You can listen to it, you can hear it, you can coexist alongside it, you can take any advice that's legit and use it as constructive criticism, but if you put it aside and make it not yourself, it disarms it.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't internalize it as much, right?
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: So it's a really great tool and it's also like kind of fun you know yeah.
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking of?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: What should I name mine?
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: You know I have to come up with a really good name, but I definitely have yeah, oh, we all have it, we all have it.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And then the second thing I'll say is beliefs stem from expectations, and when people think of their expectations for themselves, I want to encourage them to consider where those expectations come from.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: Is it really something you set for yourself, or have you internalized that expectation because of something a boss once said, or something your parents said, or something your grandparents or your community has sort of instilled in you?
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: So do again.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: I have one of the exercises in the book is an expectations audit.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Go through the expectations audit, figure out where your expectations come from and if they don't come from, you consider if you want to continue to operate based on that expectations or if you want to let it go, or if you want to just adjust it, because it's okay if an expectation that you set for yourself maybe came from somewhere else, but you're like no, I still want to, like, strive towards that, like that's okay, you can still own it, but just understand where it originated from.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, where it came from.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think was pervasive through your phases was ownership, meaning that life isn't happening to you, it isn't someone else's fault, no one's coming to save you.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: You have to actually take action, move through this.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: You may spend more time in one phase than another, or you know it isn't like.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: You know you have to get through all four phases in 60 minutes.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: No, you can't.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: You can't, you know.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: So I think that's a sense of just.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: In general, people want to move fast through things, that want a solution.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: I think you know we live in a world where you know we want everything right away, right, instant gratification, and I'm sometimes in that group.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: You know, why do I have to wait or why do I have to go through this so slowly?
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: Can we just like speed it up?
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: So I think, just what is the normal timeframe or what have you found?
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Is there an average to go through this setback cycle, or is it all individual and personal?
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: There is no timeframe for the setback cycle because every setback is so unique, every setback is so personal.
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: I interviewed people who stayed in the established phase or the embrace phase for decades.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: Because, also, when you look back you might realize oh, I cycled through the setback cycle over here over that period of five years, but then I cycled through this other setback over the course of a week, because the spectrum is so vast that, like you can't possibly compare.
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: Like I said, if you're a new parent and you're sleep training your baby and you get really far, but then the baby gets sick and the sleep training all goes away, that's a setback that's going to take you, you know, but then the baby gets sick and the sleep training all goes away.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: That's a setback, that's going to take, you know, and it happens.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: But I'm just saying, like, these setbacks are not always like big and dramatic and life-changing, although that particular one can feel big, dramatic and life-changing in the moment for a sleep deprived parent.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: But do you see what I mean?
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: Like you have these, like smaller ones that, okay, you know you'll sleep, train them again and it'll be fine and, depending on the baby, a couple of days, a couple of weeks, like you don't know, you can't possibly predict.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: But then these other big and, like I said, especially career setbacks or even relationship setbacks, like how many people do you know who stayed in their job too long or stayed in a relationship too long because it was just easier to keep going than to stop and acknowledge there was a problem and it was time to leave.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And so those setbacks last and those you know, establish and embrace phases, last for years.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Even explore can last for years, because you know you want to get out but you don't know how to move forward.
• 31:00
  Speaker 2: You've embraced the information you've digested, like what happened or what's currently happening, and you've digested the information, you've figured out what's happening either in the past or currently and you're just going to explore until you figure out that path forward.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: The exploration could last a really long time because you don't want to move forward until you're super clear and confident on what's next.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: And, by the way, I who the person who created the setback cycle, the setback expert when I am in a setback, I also want to fast forward.
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: I'm like I don't want to sit in embrace.
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: I don't want to.
• 31:38
  Speaker 2: I am the setback expert and I want to fast forward through embrace every time I get there.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I hate it, but I know that I have to do.
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: I have the tools, at least it's necessary.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: I like have the tools.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: I mean, how many can tell you how many setbacks I endured as I was writing the book, as I was marketing the book, you know, and I was like, okay, I guess I have to do this.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And you know, saying it, talking about it and doing it are very different things.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: It's still hard, even for me.
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just keep moving forward as well, just one step at a time, and even if it's a slow, short step.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: It's still a step forward, Right, Absolutely.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: As we're ending, you have interviewed a lot of people and people who, like, when I see the names, I'm like they had a setback, like you know, they from the outside, right, we all look so successful to.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: You know the 10 year overnight success type of moments, or the 50 year overnight success, whatever it is, but, like everyone, at the core it's human and we all have this human experience, which means we have successes and failures and setbacks, and so what was one of the notable like we wouldn't believe this person had this type of a setback that comes to mind for you.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know, all the people who I interviewed obviously are very public with their setbacks.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: But when I was writing the book, you know, I definitely wanted to touch on mental health and mental wellness and the instability that creeps in and I purposely turned to someone I had interviewed for Forbes, kendall tool.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: She's a she was a Peloton instructor.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: She just made a move.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: It bold move.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Exactly, I actually just interviewed her on what's next post Peloton, so that article is coming out soon.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: Stay tuned, excellent.
• 33:18
  Speaker 2: But but when I interviewed her, I really wanted to tell her story about her mental health struggles.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: Like she, I mean, because she's this person who is blonde, adorable, bubbly, cheerful, happy.
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I mean she's a freaking fitness instructor.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: Like she's up there, energetic, motivating people, rallying them, and like she just looks like she was a cheerleader.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: She got straight A's in school.
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: She just looks like the epitome of perfection and what we all strive to be.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: But what she said to me in our interview was I used perfectionism as the way to cope with my depression and that was my outlet for anxiety and I had two energies coexisting at once and that, to me, is just the epitome of what we see everywhere.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: You see success.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: You see what you think as like an inspirational figure, someone who is like just everything you want to be and you can't possibly be like them.
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: And it sounds cliche, but it's so true.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: You have no idea what they're dealing with in the background and luckily you know people like Kendall are super open about it.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: You know she talks openly about her mental health struggles.
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: She is now a huge advocate and working with all kinds of organizations to help not just destigmatize the conversation around mental health but make sure that people have access to resources and support, because sometimes it can feel expensive or unattainable or you know all the things and I just I feel like that's really a person who I was like I can't believe you of all people, had this big struggle when everything about you looks like you've just had the easiest, most perfect life.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, something my mom taught me when my brother passed away when I was six.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: He was 11.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I'm so sorry, thank you.
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: I went back to school and I couldn't understand why no one was.
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: You know I was in first grade why?
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: Why you know people weren't hugging me or, you know, letting me know it's okay, and those type of things.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: And she said, you know, everyone doesn't wear like a name tag which says everything that happened to them.
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: So, like, just and this is a first grade, and I remember like she's like just move through the world, understanding that you don't know someone's story, you don't know what they're going through and your friends don't know what you're going through either.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: You know, just be kind and be loving, and so, like I think that's, we just don't realize someone may be going through a setback or something's happened.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: And I bet setbacks are on a continuum, just like being bold is, some of them might feel light and like, oh, you know, that's a bump where some feel like a boulder and a mountain to get over.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: So just be kind, I think, and you know, continue to be curious.
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: But I think that's kind of at the base of to what we're talking about and you know the shared experience that you're talking about, like with Kendall.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: You just don't know what someone's going through or what they're trying to.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: You know their tactics to kind of get through it, or over it Exactly.
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: Be curious and be kind.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's really what it all boils down to.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, as we end, and thinking about you as an author and me just finishing writing my book, I know I learned a lot about myself during this process.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Talk about a process rife with setbacks.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: Try to write a book and get it published.
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: My God, it's a journey.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: So you know everyone asks what is it like?
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: It's a journey of multiple layers.
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: What did you learn about yourself in writing the setback cycle, any ahas or wows or like?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: You know that was new.
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Honestly, in writing it, I was.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: I wrote this book because I was inspired by the journeys of others, of people like Kendall and, you know, norma Kamali and Stacey London and Paula Patel and Kate Luzio and all the people I profiled in the book.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: That is why I wrote it to share their stories and to inspire people, because if they see that these inspirational folks work through their setbacks and came out with success, so can you?
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: What I learned about myself or what I learned, I think, about other people's?
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: Response to me was I was not really putting my voice in this book.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: I was, you know, and my editor and my agent said the whole time you know, we need more of you, we need more of your perspective.
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: And I was like why would you need my perspective when I'm quoting experts and I'm telling stories of other people?
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: As a formally trained journalist, I have always, you know, tried to put other stories in, you know, in front of mine, and tell them objectively, without inserting my own voice.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: As a marketer, I have always tried to, you know, write and create content in a brand voice, not in my own.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: You know, you're really trying not to let your own perspective and your own voice creep into your work, trying not to let your own perspective and your own voice creep into your work.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And I had to really throw all that training out the window when I was writing the book because I was being told use your voice, use your voice.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: I like almost didn't know how and that's why you know, going back to what the bold move it like, what being bold means it's using your voice.
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: Because when I wrote it I did put my voice in.
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: I put my own little story in my own little career setback and I thought that would be just a little piece of it.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: When the book came out and news outlets wanted to interview me, podcasters wanted to interview me all they wanted me to talk about was my own setback story.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: That was the thing that everyone was really drawn to and I couldn't believe it because I had public figures in my book.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: I had really famous people who I thought would be the stars and when it came down to it, that push that I got from people to use my voice and put my voice in there and share my story.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: People want to hear my story because it's relatable, because it's the story of millions of people.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: It's not a big dramatic thing.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: It's a sort of small setback that had a really big impact on my career and it happens to everyone and I think that was my biggest learning, which goes back to being bold and trusting your voice and using your voice and sharing your voice, because I think it matters more than you realize it does that that was the biggest thing I learned about myself.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it feels vulnerable, but it creates a connection to someone going, wow, I'm not the only one that went through that.
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: Or?
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: I can relate Like you said it becomes wow, she's human and so you know.
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: It's okay, you know, and I think for us to expect to to have more reminders of that, because I think in the world we're in, we have, we see things and you know social media and that kind of like we only see this perfection.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: You know, and I applaud you and I'm excited to share this message and the book with as many people who the podcast and more.
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: So, thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: All the information about the book and about Amy's services and speaking, and all the stuff that she does to make a difference, as in the episode notes, thank you.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to the Bold Lounge podcast.
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: Through the continuum of bold stories vulnerability to taking a leap you will meet more extraordinary people making a positive impact for others through their unique and important story.
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: By highlighting these stories, we hope to inspire others and share the journey of those with a bold mindset.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: We hope you've enjoyed this podcast and look forward to sharing the next bold journey with you.