Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / New police chief re-opens '3 Billboards' murder case

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New police chief re-opens '3 Billboards' murder case · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: Triumph Channel one thirty too. When I saw the award
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Speaker 1: winning movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri, I was just floored.
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Speaker 1: I was floored not only by the acting of Francis McDorman,
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Speaker 1: but just the fact that I knew it was based
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Speaker 1: on a true story. The movie was about this mother
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Speaker 1: that fought the local law enforcement, that fought the community,
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Speaker 1: that fought her neighbors and her effort to find who
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Speaker 1: had brutally set her daughter on fire, killing her daughter
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Speaker 1: during a rape. It's so difficult and in my mind
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Speaker 1: as I was watching, and I was thinking about a
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Speaker 1: young woman whose father I felt that I got to
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Speaker 1: know after his daughter had been set on fire and killed.
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Speaker 1: The whole time I was watching the movie, I knew
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Speaker 1: it was based on a true story. And right now
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Speaker 1: we hear the true story. I'm Nancy Grace. This is
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Speaker 1: crime Stories. Thank you for being with us the true
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Speaker 1: and as i've yet unsolved murder of a beautiful woman,
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Speaker 1: Kathy Page, the inspiration to the Academy Award winning movie
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Speaker 1: Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. Joining me right now, Dr
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Speaker 1: Brian Russell, Troy Slayton, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Cheryl White.
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Speaker 1: Cheryl tell me about the real life story of Cathy
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Speaker 1: Page and her murder. Well. Kathy Page was thirty four
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Speaker 1: years old, as she had two young children under the
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Speaker 1: age of ten, and she was found beaten, raped and
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Speaker 1: strangled in her car, which had been staged to look
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Speaker 1: like an accident, but it was not. We are focusing
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Speaker 1: on the murder of Kathy Page, the real life inspiration
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Speaker 1: behind that the blockbuster movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.
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Speaker 1: Back to you, Cheryl White, So you're saying you have
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Speaker 1: no doubt in your mind Kathy's murder was staged. Why
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Speaker 1: do you say that, Well, the police on the scene
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Speaker 1: said that the car and the body were put together
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Speaker 1: later that she did not die in that car. They
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Speaker 1: also go as far as to say that she was
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Speaker 1: clothed after her death. Wow, this mother of two, absolutely
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Speaker 1: beautiful woman, Cathy Page had been beaten, a rape and
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Speaker 1: strangled when her body was found in her car near
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Speaker 1: her home. Now police say somebody had parked her car
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Speaker 1: in a ditch to make it look like a crash.
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Speaker 1: And that's pretty easy to determine that much. Joseph's got
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Speaker 1: Morgan joining me. Forensics expert and professor of forensics at
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, jos got Morgan. I mean, it should
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Speaker 1: be pretty easy to tell if a car crashed into
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Speaker 1: a ditch or if it was driven in there gently. Yeah, yeah,
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Speaker 1: it would be uh, Nancy, if you had if there
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Speaker 1: was a direct impact into the ditch, there would be
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Speaker 1: significant damage. There'd be dirt buried onto the onto the
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Speaker 1: bumper and onto the sidewalls, the tires, everything as opposed
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Speaker 1: to somebody just kind of easing it down into a
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Speaker 1: depressed area. Uh and and this is what we refer
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Speaker 1: to a staging. Cathy's death in Vider became famous and
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Speaker 1: infamous after her father started putting up billboards on his
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Speaker 1: property along the highway accusing local police of failing to
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Speaker 1: investigate her murdyr. Another thing that we know in the
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Speaker 1: car there were soft drinks in the front seat that
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Speaker 1: hadn't spilled. That's a tip off to me, Troy Slayton,
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Speaker 1: you're the veteran defense attorney joining me out of l A.
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Speaker 1: I mean, the cars eased into a ditch and the
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Speaker 1: soft drinks hadn't even spilled. All of that information is
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Speaker 1: fertile grounds for a defense when they actually find a suspect.
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Speaker 1: But right now there's no one even charged with the crime.
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Speaker 1: Well wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait, hold hold
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Speaker 1: on to me. All those circumstances will direct me to
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Speaker 1: who the killer is. I'm taking a look at all
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Speaker 1: of the signs this grieving father, Cathy's father, placed along
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Speaker 1: the side of the road. It says Vider police botched
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Speaker 1: the case waiting for a confession. This could happen to you.
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Speaker 1: And these are hand made signs the father posted. I
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Speaker 1: just can't even imagine the grief this father was going
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Speaker 1: through his daughter, the mother of two, raped, beaten, dead,
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Speaker 1: left in a ditch in a car. It does sound
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Speaker 1: fake to me. Dr Brian Russell. Dr Brian Russell, psychologist
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Speaker 1: and lawyer and host of Investigation Discoveries Fatal val series.
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Speaker 1: Dr Russell, Before you answer that, take a listen to
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Speaker 1: this full surviving daughter sherriff is speaking exclusively to Daily
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Speaker 1: Mail TV. I'm just glad that dad had the inspiration
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Speaker 1: to put the signs up and I'm ready to put
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Speaker 1: up some more if that's what it takes to Dr
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Speaker 1: Brian Russell, psychologist and lawyer, host of Investigation Discoveries, A
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Speaker 1: blockbuster hit Fatal Vows. Dr Brian What the father is
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Speaker 1: going through when he sees his daughter has been raped, murdered,
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Speaker 1: his granddaughters are being raised without a mom, and he
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Speaker 1: he feels he can't get any answers and he's got
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Speaker 1: to He's reduced to putting up these handmade signs on
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Speaker 1: the side of the road. Can you imagine his pain?
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Speaker 1: Dr Brian Absolutely, we talk about uh well, I say absolutely.
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Speaker 1: I I don't know that any of us can really
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Speaker 1: know what it's like to be him, but but I
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Speaker 1: can imagine he is like many of the victims family
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Speaker 1: members that we discuss on this show, and that he
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Speaker 1: has had to endure just the horrific loss of one
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Speaker 1: of the closest people in the world to him, his daughter.
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Speaker 1: And on top of that, how he's different from many
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Speaker 1: of the victims family members that we discuss on this
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Speaker 1: show is that in most of their cases, it seems
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Speaker 1: like the society, in the form of law enforcement the
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Speaker 1: prosecutor in the area UH at least does its best
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Speaker 1: to come through for the person. And in this case,
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Speaker 1: not only does he feel uh the loss of the
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Speaker 1: daughter in the most horrifying of ways, but on top
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Speaker 1: of that, he feels that the society has sort of abandoned,
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Speaker 1: that the society is not really seeming to care that
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Speaker 1: much about getting justice for her, and so on top
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Speaker 1: of all of the grief that he's feeling, he feels
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Speaker 1: like he has to sort of personally crusade for justice
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Speaker 1: for her. The billboards that the father hand made and
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Speaker 1: placed along the road the air Invider graduated, They graduated
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Speaker 1: to big industrial size signs professionally done. One says, this
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Speaker 1: is Orange County, city of vider Here you get by
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Speaker 1: with brutally murdering a woman, and it's in red and yellow.
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Speaker 1: There is another sign. Oh, the signs all graduated and
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Speaker 1: they become bigger and bigger and bigger. Now we're all
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Speaker 1: familiar with three billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri that won the
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Speaker 1: Academy Award. This is the case on which that was based.
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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, take a listen to this.
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Speaker 1: What you can and cannot say on a billboard. I
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Speaker 1: assume you can't say nothing defamatory, and you can't say
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Speaker 1: pisor that right or as. I think I'll be all right,
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Speaker 1: then Y try Angela Hayes his money. So, Mildred Hayes,
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Speaker 1: why didn't you put up in billboards? My daughter Angela
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Speaker 1: was murdered seven months ago. It seems to me the
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Speaker 1: police department is too busy torture in black folks to
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Speaker 1: solve actual crime. Ditch, I'm in the middle, like Mr Dinner. Sorry,
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Speaker 1: I know, Chief, I think we've got kind of a problem.
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Speaker 1: Son Sun beating of good. I do anything to catch
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Speaker 1: your daughter's killer. I don't think those billboards is very
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Speaker 1: fair time. It took him to get out here one
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Speaker 1: and like a Willoughby, some other poor girls probably out
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Speaker 1: there being butchered. Right now. We've had two official complaints
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Speaker 1: about those billboards from who your lady with a funny eye?
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Speaker 1: A lady with a funny fucking eye? And Fat Dennis.
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Speaker 1: It's a lot of good friends that Willoughby in this
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Speaker 1: town is eight. You didn't have to drill a little
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Speaker 1: hole in the dentist today, did you? Of course? I said,
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Speaker 1: of course, I'm sorry about Andrew, but the town is
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Speaker 1: dead set against these billboards and who that can? How
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Speaker 1: about you, sweetheart? No, I didn't really Okay, don't say
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Speaker 1: what Dickson when she comes in calling you? Where you
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Speaker 1: keep a case in the public eye and your chance
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Speaker 1: and it's all you know. If you hadn't stopped coming
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Speaker 1: to church, you'd have a little bit more understanding of
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Speaker 1: people's feelings. That was sound from the Academy Award winning
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Speaker 1: movie Three Billboards Outside Edding, Missouri, and that that the
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Speaker 1: movie was incredible and awful and wonderful at the same time,
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Speaker 1: and based on a true story. And that is a
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Speaker 1: true story we are investigating today. So Sheryl White the
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Speaker 1: other facts around unding her murder. You mentioned that it
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Speaker 1: appeared she had been clothed after her murder. Why is that?
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Speaker 1: Why do you say that, Cheryl, there were images or
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Speaker 1: the blood stains on the inside of the clothing that
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Speaker 1: made it appear that the clothing had been put on
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Speaker 1: after that she had been killed. To Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: forensics expert, that reminds me of the case I prosecuted
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Speaker 1: where a woman was found shot in the head suicide
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Speaker 1: naked in bed. Okay, so you and I both know
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Speaker 1: that statistically, women never shoot themselves in the handterface when
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Speaker 1: committing suicide. In fact, some of them dress up to
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Speaker 1: commit suicide. Um, they never commit suicide naked. That alerted
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Speaker 1: me at the get go. But then I found blood
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Speaker 1: spatter spatter under the pillow on which she was laying. Okay,
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Speaker 1: you see what's wrong with that, right? The blood could
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Speaker 1: not possibly have spattered from the gunshot wound under the
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Speaker 1: pillow on which she was laying. That's impossible, right, So
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Speaker 1: that blood spatter meant something. Explain to me why what
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Speaker 1: Ryl White said about Cathie pages of bloodstains are is
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Speaker 1: so significant? Well, it is Nancy, And this goes to
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Speaker 1: how effectively the police are actually paying attention uh in
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Speaker 1: the fine details. In this particular case, this is something
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Speaker 1: that we refer to as redressing of a body. When
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Speaker 1: you're staging a crime and certain things have their place
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Speaker 1: in the timeline. And if you have blood that has
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Speaker 1: wound up beneath a surface, for instance, like you were
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Speaker 1: stating with a pillow or in this case, uh oriented
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Speaker 1: in the clothing, it doesn't match up with the physical
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Speaker 1: evidence that you're finding at the scene. It doesn't marry up.
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Speaker 1: So that's one of the things that's going to cause
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Speaker 1: the police to look at this and scratch their head
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Speaker 1: and say, you know what, this is just not right.
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Speaker 1: It was early dawn on May fourteen. Police in vider,
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Speaker 1: Texas found a carrect on the side of the road.
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Speaker 1: The woman behind the wheel was dead, but when they
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Speaker 1: touched her, her skin was cool. That is significant. Her
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Speaker 1: skin was cool. That tells the police in a way,
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Speaker 1: generally speaking, how long she had been there based on
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Speaker 1: the temperature around her. Now, it looked like a crash.
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Speaker 1: But then all of a sudden it got very very confusing.
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Speaker 1: She had no obvious wounds. How could she die a
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Speaker 1: car crash and there's no obvious wound. The soft drinks
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Speaker 1: of the front seat, we're not even spilled. Her feet
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Speaker 1: were pushed back against the seat rather than stretched out
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Speaker 1: toward the brake and the gas. She was not wearing
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Speaker 1: a seat belt, but the crash seemingly did not force
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Speaker 1: her forward or make her hit her head on the
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Speaker 1: steering wheel. Any good police officer could see that there
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Speaker 1: was no damage on the inside of the vehicle, damage
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Speaker 1: to the exterior, the deepness of the ditch, it was
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Speaker 1: very clear to them it had all been staged, leading
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Speaker 1: to a lot of questions. It was thirty or four
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Speaker 1: year old Cathy Page, the mother of two, and she
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Speaker 1: only lived about a hundred yards from the crash site.
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Speaker 1: Police immediately go to her home. Her husband, Steve answers
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Speaker 1: the door. He answers the door, and as soon as
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Speaker 1: Detective Sergeant Mostly begins speaking to him, he answers that
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Speaker 1: his wife wasn't home, and he looks straight down the
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Speaker 1: street toward where the car was. He seemed to be
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Speaker 1: upset and he started crying. He threw himself on the
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Speaker 1: couch crying, But then he would jump up while we
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Speaker 1: were talking and there would be no tears. Troy Slaton, l,
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Speaker 1: dot com slash Nancy and enter any name to get
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Speaker 1: start hearted. And are you trying to make me believe
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Speaker 1: in reincarnation Martya, because you're pretty good you ain't her.
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Speaker 1: She got killed. Still no arrest. I've come, I wonder
18:22
Speaker 1: because there ain't no God in the whole world's empty
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Speaker 1: and didn't matter what we do to each other. I
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Speaker 1: don't know what the police are doing. I hadn't heard
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Speaker 1: a word from them, said, I'll tell you this. I've
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Speaker 1: heard an awful lot for them since I put them
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Speaker 1: billboards up. That was from the movie Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri,
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Speaker 1: an incredible movie about a young girl, a daughter that
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Speaker 1: was brutally sex assaulted and murdered by fire. At the
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Speaker 1: time of the sex assault, her mother insisted local police
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Speaker 1: did not do enough to catch the killer and took
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Speaker 1: billboards out along the side side of the road, very
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Speaker 1: visible billboards. I remember at the end of that movie,
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Speaker 1: I could hardly speak imagine what the mother went through.
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Speaker 1: It's based on a true story, the story of the
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Speaker 1: murder of Cathy Page. As of today, unsolved why Troy Slayton,
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Speaker 1: l a defense attorney. The guy was fake crying. The husband.
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Speaker 1: There is no textbook, Nancy. There is no specific way
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Speaker 1: that somebody acts when they find out that something horribly
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Speaker 1: tragic has happened, like the death of their wife. So
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Speaker 1: maybe his uh, maybe he just didn't grieve the way
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Speaker 1: that you would expect someone to grieve. He was crying.
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Speaker 1: He threw himself on the cow. That may have been legitimate,
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Speaker 1: it may not have been. We just don't know. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: we don't know. But I can tell you this much.
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Speaker 1: If I saw my husband's car wrecked, I would not
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Speaker 1: throw myself on the sofa and cry in my house robe.
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Speaker 1: I'd get my rear end out the front porch and
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Speaker 1: run to that car to see if I could save him,
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Speaker 1: to find out where he was, find out what happened.
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Speaker 1: I would not be laying on the sofa fake crying.
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Speaker 1: Now that's according to the police. That's what you would do, Nancy.
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Speaker 1: But that's not what somebody else may have done. Okay,
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Speaker 1: And he also says he was not fake crying, But
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Speaker 1: this is what he does say. Listen to Cathy's husband,
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Speaker 1: Steve Page. Mainly, she was uncomfortable with who she was, uh,
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Speaker 1: or at least that was what she explained to me,
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Speaker 1: that she didn't know who she was. She wanted to
20:50
Speaker 1: try to find out who Cathy was. Because of that,
20:53
Speaker 1: we talked about separating for a short period of time
20:57
Speaker 1: and allowing her to hopefully find herself. She said she
21:02
Speaker 1: was going to meet one of her girlfriends after work,
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Speaker 1: and so I went over there. She left at approximately
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Speaker 1: eleven fifteen thirty head to Beaumont to meet her friend,
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Speaker 1: Um Charlotte, what's the friend's name? She was getting ready,
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Speaker 1: she just got out of the shower. I approached her
21:23
Speaker 1: about sex, and we had sex before she left, before
21:27
Speaker 1: she got dressed. Even the reason it comes down on
21:29
Speaker 1: me is because I'm the husband. I'm the estranged husband.
21:34
Speaker 1: To make it even worse, and because of her actions,
21:39
Speaker 1: I am being blamed for her actions. She was out
21:43
Speaker 1: seeing another guy, so therefore it could only have been me.
21:47
Speaker 1: I must have found out somehow how, according to the police,
21:51
Speaker 1: and became enraged and committed murder. I received threats on
21:58
Speaker 1: the phone at the same thing that happened to my
22:00
Speaker 1: wife could happen to me. There was a name of
22:03
Speaker 1: a certain person here in Beaumont that was bandied about
22:07
Speaker 1: as a person who may have been involved. It's a
22:10
Speaker 1: very prominent family, Uh, an Italian family even uh to
22:17
Speaker 1: let you know that they are considered part of the
22:19
Speaker 1: Beaumont mafia. Uh. You know what's interesting to Dr Brian
22:23
Speaker 1: Russell's psychologist and lawyer and host of I d S
22:27
Speaker 1: Fatal Vowel series, Dctor Brian, Why is it always the
22:30
Speaker 1: dead victim's fault? It's always her fault? Have you noticed that? Uh,
22:35
Speaker 1: she was the one leaving going somewhere that night. She
22:40
Speaker 1: was the one, he says, finding herself. He even says,
22:43
Speaker 1: why are they blaming me? It's her fault. It's interesting
22:45
Speaker 1: because in a way, he sort of, uh, he sort
22:49
Speaker 1: of lays out the case for why he would be
22:53
Speaker 1: the prime suspect, and he does it pretty accurately. And
22:57
Speaker 1: as he does it, almost found myself thinking, well, okay,
23:03
Speaker 1: if I'm him and I'm actually innocent, And I realized
23:07
Speaker 1: that there are these things that would cause people to
23:10
Speaker 1: look at me, how that would feel. But then I
23:13
Speaker 1: start to whatever little bit of empathy I start to
23:17
Speaker 1: have goes away when I noticed that in amongst the
23:22
Speaker 1: things he's saying, well, I'm you know, I'm the husband,
23:25
Speaker 1: and so they're gonna look at me, and we're estranged,
23:27
Speaker 1: and they're gonna look at me even more and all this,
23:30
Speaker 1: and and she was seeing another guy and they're gonna
23:32
Speaker 1: think that I found out and I got enraged. Okay,
23:35
Speaker 1: but then as he tells all that, he throws in
23:38
Speaker 1: these little bits of Okay, but uh, here's the name
23:43
Speaker 1: of the friend that she was supposed to go meet. Okay, Well, well,
23:47
Speaker 1: it's almost like, why are you why do we need
23:49
Speaker 1: that detail? It's almost like, you know, I'm gonna show
23:52
Speaker 1: you that this is really true she told me she's
23:54
Speaker 1: going to meet a friend, because I'm even going to
23:55
Speaker 1: give you the name, and then I'm gonna give you
23:58
Speaker 1: another possibility of a suspect. And not only that, but
24:01
Speaker 1: then I'm going to tell you that he's not just
24:04
Speaker 1: another guy. He's a mafia guy. Uh that you know
24:07
Speaker 1: that the cops don't want to maybe go after. It's
24:10
Speaker 1: just like there's a little too much detail and it's
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Speaker 1: all directed at at you know, diverting attention and suspicion
24:22
Speaker 1: from him. Uh, it's a bit too much for me. Well,
24:25
Speaker 1: I can tell you right now that this was not
24:27
Speaker 1: a random killing because this scene was staged. Uh. Back
24:32
Speaker 1: to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, we know this she
24:35
Speaker 1: was not killed in her vehicle. She was killed in
24:38
Speaker 1: another location, cleaned out, redressed, put back in the vehicle,
24:43
Speaker 1: and after the vehicle was rolled down into the ditch
24:47
Speaker 1: to look like a crash, we find out that her
24:50
Speaker 1: body reveals she was not wearing makeup or jewelry, which
24:55
Speaker 1: is not like her. The autopsy showed she was strangled
24:59
Speaker 1: and her nose had been broken. Important there were bloodstains
25:04
Speaker 1: on her underwear and her skin, but no blood on
25:08
Speaker 1: her outer clothing. No way was this random. Because random
25:13
Speaker 1: killers strike and leave as fast as they can. They
25:16
Speaker 1: don't take time to breathe the car a hundred yards
25:19
Speaker 1: from her where her husband is and ease it down
25:22
Speaker 1: into a ditch. I would not think now, jos Got Morgan.
25:27
Speaker 1: Before you answer that, take a listen to what her sister,
25:31
Speaker 1: Cathy's sister says. Cathy was definitely moving on in her
25:35
Speaker 1: life at that point, um because the decision was made
25:39
Speaker 1: for the divorce, and that in itself, having a decision
25:42
Speaker 1: like that finally be resolved and itself was a real
25:45
Speaker 1: relief off her back and she's making plans for that.
25:48
Speaker 1: I personally don't believe that that happened. She wouldn't have
25:52
Speaker 1: been with Steve before being with another man. Um, She
25:56
Speaker 1: hadn't been with Steve in a lot of time. He's
25:58
Speaker 1: already sleeping on the couch. Uh. Him coming over to
26:03
Speaker 1: take care of the kids was more of a kindness
26:07
Speaker 1: gesture for him to be around his kids, not for
26:09
Speaker 1: him to be around Kathy. I was talking to a
26:11
Speaker 1: sister in law of Steve's, and she said that she
26:14
Speaker 1: knew for a fact that Steve made two phone calls.
26:17
Speaker 1: Steve called this charlotte of this one number, and the
26:21
Speaker 1: girl answered and he hung up. And then the second
26:23
Speaker 1: phone number was called, and they said the name of
26:26
Speaker 1: the hotel, and he hung up. And so he already
26:29
Speaker 1: knew where she might be or was wow, that's completely
26:35
Speaker 1: opposite what he says, that she was just trying to
26:38
Speaker 1: find herself and they were going to separate briefly and
26:40
Speaker 1: get back together. You know, Joseph Scott Morgan, You know
26:45
Speaker 1: you guys, you really let your penis get you into
26:49
Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. And I'll tell you why Kathy
26:53
Speaker 1: did have sex tonight. That she died, But the autopsy
26:57
Speaker 1: report includes a very very critical clue. The man she
27:04
Speaker 1: was with the night that she died had had a assectomy. Okay, yes, listeners,
27:11
Speaker 1: they can tell that the boyfriend she was dating had
27:16
Speaker 1: not had a vasectomy. That means the person she was
27:20
Speaker 1: with that night, the night she died was with somebody else.
27:26
Speaker 1: Let me just put it out there. The husband, Steve Paige,
27:29
Speaker 1: had a assectomy several months earlier. Now that's when when
27:36
Speaker 1: police confront him with this, that's when he had comes
27:40
Speaker 1: up with the sex story. Why, uh, jo Scott Morgan,
27:45
Speaker 1: was she agreed to consensual sex when she's going that
27:49
Speaker 1: night to meet her boyfriend. They're already planning the divorce.
27:53
Speaker 1: This is not just a separation. He only comes over
27:56
Speaker 1: to babysit and important there was blood her underwear. Sounds
28:01
Speaker 1: like a forcible rape, Yeah, it does, Nancy. Going back
28:05
Speaker 1: to what Brian said, this guy's kind of you know,
28:09
Speaker 1: all along this this continual wum he's talking about these things,
28:12
Speaker 1: he said, he's raising these possibilities. And wasn't it interesting
28:14
Speaker 1: that statement that he said that she agreed to have
28:17
Speaker 1: sex with him prior to this? Now, I don't know
28:20
Speaker 1: what world he lives in. But most people that are estranged, uh,
28:24
Speaker 1: you know, they're not going to agree to consensual sex,
28:28
Speaker 1: particularly if they're already involved in an intimate relationship. And
28:31
Speaker 1: let's talk about the nature of these injuries she had, Nancy,
28:35
Speaker 1: she was she was strangled, all right, that's what That's
28:38
Speaker 1: what the autopsy is saying. This is something that we see,
28:42
Speaker 1: uh in cases involving intimates that strangling is not something
28:46
Speaker 1: obviously stating the obvious here that happens at a distance.
28:50
Speaker 1: This is up close and personal. Many times, many times
28:55
Speaker 1: this is associated with sexual attacks. You've got close proxy
29:00
Speaker 1: to the individual's neck, you can wrap your hands around it.
29:03
Speaker 1: It's an issue of trying to control these people and
29:06
Speaker 1: dominate them. Sex just comes in as kind of an
29:09
Speaker 1: afterthought at this point. But he's left physical evidence behind.
29:14
Speaker 1: Another thing is I don't know if folks at home
29:17
Speaker 1: know this. Uh. We hear about things like blunt force
29:21
Speaker 1: trauma right in in in in in cases involving homicide.
29:26
Speaker 1: You know what the number one thing in the United
29:29
Speaker 1: States that creates blunt force traumas motor vehicle accidents. If she,
29:34
Speaker 1: in fact had been involved in a high speed impact case,
29:38
Speaker 1: involving there would be blood everywhere. We talked about blood, uh,
29:43
Speaker 1: you know, underneath the clothing. This gives us an idea
29:45
Speaker 1: that she was uh, you know, redressed. She'd have blood,
29:49
Speaker 1: there'd be you know, gashes on her forehead, she'd have
29:52
Speaker 1: obvious bruising all over her. Um. That's what kind of
29:56
Speaker 1: gives you pause and makes you scratch your head. There's
29:58
Speaker 1: a myriad of physical call evidence here, Nancy. That goes
30:03
Speaker 1: to kind of uh, you know Ford, what he's trying
30:07
Speaker 1: the narrative that he's trying to put forward, you know
30:09
Speaker 1: what he's right to Cheryl White, Crime Stories investigative reporter,
30:15
Speaker 1: Cheryl what what more do we know about the investigation
30:18
Speaker 1: because her father, her father who was James Fulton, says
30:23
Speaker 1: that police did not investigate the case thoroughly and that
30:27
Speaker 1: there is a murderer there and they refused to make
30:30
Speaker 1: an arrest. That the father does do that and he
30:33
Speaker 1: is adamant that he will continue to demand that justice
30:37
Speaker 1: for his daughter be if it carried out. Uh, the
30:41
Speaker 1: d n A problem um raises its head. So they
30:46
Speaker 1: found that she'd had sex, no sperm, So that was
30:49
Speaker 1: a vasecto me as you said, So is there anything
30:52
Speaker 1: there that police can use to track it down. There
30:56
Speaker 1: was a mention that he didn't want the husband not
31:00
Speaker 1: want the police to examine the home. The one reason
31:05
Speaker 1: for that he said that she had caught her legs shaving,
31:09
Speaker 1: and that they might find the blood on the floor
31:11
Speaker 1: and the carpet and therefore believed that he had something
31:15
Speaker 1: to do with her death. Oh, in the words of Shakespeare,
31:18
Speaker 1: Troy Slayton, methinks thou doth protest too much? Troy Slayton
31:22
Speaker 1: joining me, high profile lawyer out of l A. Here's
31:25
Speaker 1: the guy saying he doesn't want them to search to home,
31:29
Speaker 1: but if they did, they might find her blood on
31:31
Speaker 1: the carpet from shaving. Man that must have been some
31:34
Speaker 1: razor cut that didn't come from a bit Troy. Oh,
31:37
Speaker 1: my goodness, Nancy, you mean somebody wouldn't want the government
31:41
Speaker 1: agents police searching all over your home. I mean, that's
31:46
Speaker 1: nothing to be shocked about. And if the police thought
31:50
Speaker 1: that they even had uh reasonable suspicion or probable cause
31:54
Speaker 1: of some of the lowest burden known to the law,
31:58
Speaker 1: they could easily go to a judge and swear out
32:01
Speaker 1: a search warrant. Yeah, but in that time isn't it true?
32:04
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. All we need is for the perp,
32:08
Speaker 1: whoever that may be, to pour a little myriatic acid
32:11
Speaker 1: on there and get rid of it. I mean, plain
32:13
Speaker 1: all cleanser bleach isn't gonna kill it d NA, but
32:17
Speaker 1: mariatic acid certainly would. Like you know, black swan, maybe
32:20
Speaker 1: long story short. Joe Scott Morgan, uh uh no. If
32:25
Speaker 1: he wanted to help police catch the killer, why not.
32:29
Speaker 1: I mean I always compare it to Mark Class when
32:31
Speaker 1: his daughter Paully went missing. He's like, sure, here, run
32:35
Speaker 1: through my place, take whatever you want. And hey, while
32:37
Speaker 1: are here, take my fingerprints, take my blood, take my saliva,
32:40
Speaker 1: give me a polygraph so you can move on quickly
32:43
Speaker 1: to finding who took and murdered my daughter Polly. Okay,
32:48
Speaker 1: that's what I expect from the family of crime victims.
32:51
Speaker 1: Joe Scott. Yeah, yeah, I do too, Nancy. And also,
32:54
Speaker 1: this guy is a father. Keep that in mind. If
32:57
Speaker 1: he wants, you know, if he if he it's closure,
33:00
Speaker 1: if he wants his kids to be okay, if he
33:03
Speaker 1: wants to to demonstrate to his children that the future
33:06
Speaker 1: is gonna be okay, We're gonna find out who did
33:08
Speaker 1: the star Mama, Then why not give this stuff up?
33:12
Speaker 1: Why not give these physical samples up? And so it
33:15
Speaker 1: gives you policy to scratch your head, and yeah, Troy
33:18
Speaker 1: All argued that he's going to you know, he he
33:21
Speaker 1: could be violated by the government, it could be utilized
33:24
Speaker 1: against him and all the sort of thing. But conversely,
33:27
Speaker 1: it could be used to exonerate him as well. Uh.
33:30
Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's uh, it's it's two sides.
33:33
Speaker 1: It's a two sided coin here. So it's a dangerous
33:36
Speaker 1: path that he's gone down. Guys, we're talking about the
33:39
Speaker 1: real life inspiration that ultimately ended up as being an
33:45
Speaker 1: Academy Award winning movie. Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri. That
33:50
Speaker 1: movie talked about the brutal rape and burning death of
33:56
Speaker 1: a young teen girl and her mother fighting law enforcement,
34:01
Speaker 1: including Woody Harrelson, who was also awesome, uh, fighting him
34:05
Speaker 1: looking for answers. At the end of the movie, you
34:09
Speaker 1: still didn't have the killer. Sorry about the spoiler alert,
34:12
Speaker 1: but the investigation went on. It's about the struggle of
34:16
Speaker 1: a mother trying to find her daughter's killer. And she's
34:19
Speaker 1: not just looking for the killer, she's doing battle with
34:22
Speaker 1: local police as well, and that's just what's happening here
34:27
Speaker 1: and the real life story of Kathy Page. Her father
34:31
Speaker 1: is still trying to get justice over Kathy's murder. Now
34:36
Speaker 1: it means a lot to me what a murder of
34:38
Speaker 1: victims family thinks. I want you to listen to Cathy's father,
34:42
Speaker 1: her dad, James Fulton, listened. I feel like she came
34:46
Speaker 1: in that night and come into mac no Or act.
34:47
Speaker 1: She had one park your car and he would flip
34:49
Speaker 1: setting in a chair in the front room. And when
34:51
Speaker 1: she went on in the bathroom and Shane Clow took
34:54
Speaker 1: a makeup all look Jerry and alaw and he's heard
34:58
Speaker 1: it probably in the bathroom, and he got up and
35:02
Speaker 1: demanded sex for her. Whatever I got in the fight.
35:05
Speaker 1: Then Steve realizing what had happened, he wants to redress her.
35:08
Speaker 1: If you look at the valient crime profile, if it's
35:11
Speaker 1: into a t you know the remark she wants to redress.
35:14
Speaker 1: You don't want them to be found neked or bloody.
35:17
Speaker 1: So there was an attempt to clean her up and
35:20
Speaker 1: redress her, but things were forgotten, for instance, her jewelry
35:26
Speaker 1: and her socks. You were hearing sound from Unsolved Mystery
35:30
Speaker 1: Cathy Page. You know what that detail. I didn't know,
35:34
Speaker 1: Sheryl White, Crime Stories investigative reporter. So she's missing not
35:37
Speaker 1: only makeup and jewelry, but she says she's going out,
35:41
Speaker 1: but her socks as well. This is in February, and
35:44
Speaker 1: she didn't have on any socks, Sheryl, And I'll tell
35:46
Speaker 1: you what else. They found a blade of grass on
35:49
Speaker 1: the back of her jeans, further cementing the theory that
35:53
Speaker 1: her body was not in the car at the time
35:55
Speaker 1: of death. It was dragged. M that that's a huge
35:59
Speaker 1: clue to this case. There real life inspiration to the
36:04
Speaker 1: Academy Award winning movie Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri. Listened
36:08
Speaker 1: to this. Cathy Page was not killed in her vehicle.
36:11
Speaker 1: She was killed at another location, cleaned up, redressed, and
36:15
Speaker 1: placed back in her vehicle, and after the vehicle had
36:19
Speaker 1: been rolled into the ditch. I'd do anything to catch
36:22
Speaker 1: the guy who did it, Mrs Hayes. But when the
36:24
Speaker 1: DNA don't match no one who's ever been arrested, and
36:27
Speaker 1: when the DNA don't match any other crime nationwide, and
36:31
Speaker 1: when there wasn't a single eye witness from the time
36:34
Speaker 1: she left your house to the time we found her. Well,
36:38
Speaker 1: right now, there ain't too much more we can do.
36:41
Speaker 1: Could pull blood from every man and boy in this
36:43
Speaker 1: town over the age at eight, there's several rights laws
36:48
Speaker 1: prevents that, Mrs Hayes. And what if he was just
36:51
Speaker 1: passing through town full blood from every man in the
36:53
Speaker 1: country then? And what if he was just passing through
36:55
Speaker 1: the country. It was me. I started up a database
36:59
Speaker 1: and from el bay be what's born, stick him on it,
37:02
Speaker 1: and as soon as he's done something wrong, cross references,
37:05
Speaker 1: make a certain it was a correct match, and kill him. Yeah. Well,
37:12
Speaker 1: there's definitely civil rights laws prevents that. I'm doing everything
37:21
Speaker 1: I can to track him down. I don't think those
37:25
Speaker 1: billboards is very fair. The time it took you to
37:28
Speaker 1: get out here one and like, will it be some
37:30
Speaker 1: other poor girls probably out there being butchered right now?
37:32
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you got your priorities straight. I'll say
37:34
Speaker 1: that for you. Guys. You just heard a clip from
37:37
Speaker 1: Frances McDorman in the movie Three Billboards outside Ebbing, Missouri,
37:42
Speaker 1: where at one point they thought they had found her
37:46
Speaker 1: daughter's killer and they ran his d n A it
37:50
Speaker 1: wasn't him, And the disappointment that the mom suffered. It
37:54
Speaker 1: was like a mortal blow. That's how I feel, James Fulton,
38:00
Speaker 1: the Pages father must feel right now. Still no arrest
38:06
Speaker 1: in the murder of his daughter Kathy. That's something I
38:09
Speaker 1: don't understand. To forensics expert Joseph Scott Morrigan, if they
38:14
Speaker 1: have semen, well you know what, never mind, I answered,
38:20
Speaker 1: in my own mind, they've got semen from Kathy Page.
38:24
Speaker 1: But the husband says it was consensual sex. We know
38:30
Speaker 1: she met her boyfriend that night. I highly doubt that.
38:33
Speaker 1: I mean, in my mind, especially in light of blood
38:36
Speaker 1: in her underwear, that's enough forensic evidence to go forward
38:40
Speaker 1: with a criminal case. Joe Scott, I would think so, Nancy.
38:43
Speaker 1: But let's keep in mind that this fellow also had
38:46
Speaker 1: a vasectomy, as you mentioned earlier. Uh, to do the
38:49
Speaker 1: extraction for DNA, you have to have sperm, and at
38:52
Speaker 1: this point, uh, this guy doesn't. He doesn't have any sperm,
38:57
Speaker 1: so it has to be extracted literally from the of
39:00
Speaker 1: the sperm. So he's when he when there is ejaculate,
39:05
Speaker 1: it is non cellular. Uh, it's a non cellular suspension,
39:09
Speaker 1: So you're not gonna have DNA in there. Uh. And
39:13
Speaker 1: the blood and we don't know who the blood is from,
39:16
Speaker 1: do we at this point in time? Uh, And you
39:20
Speaker 1: have to be able to to match these things up.
39:22
Speaker 1: If he's bathed her, for instance, Uh, he could have
39:26
Speaker 1: disrupted uh, disrupted the any kind of physical evidence that
39:30
Speaker 1: was there. So you know, you kind of leave your
39:33
Speaker 1: head scratching here. Uh. You know, he's in physical contact
39:37
Speaker 1: with her, he's in his in her presence. So even
39:39
Speaker 1: if there's contact DNA in this environment, it can easily
39:43
Speaker 1: be explained by the defense. Well, the blood we know
39:47
Speaker 1: came from her, I don't think it thinks that she
39:49
Speaker 1: would have been bathed, because there was still blood some
39:53
Speaker 1: blood on her body, under her clothes and in her underwear.
39:58
Speaker 1: So I don't think she would have been bathed. I
40:01
Speaker 1: think that one of the things that we have to consider.
40:03
Speaker 1: I'd be very interested to see the results on the
40:06
Speaker 1: rape kit that they conducted and also the examination. Um
40:10
Speaker 1: and I'm going to get a little bit graphic here,
40:12
Speaker 1: but the vaginal examination that they would have done on
40:14
Speaker 1: her at autopsy, and what you would be looking for is,
40:19
Speaker 1: uh in the vaginal opening, you'd be looking for trauma,
40:22
Speaker 1: external trauma and also dilation of the vaginal opening that
40:27
Speaker 1: indicates that maybe this was in fact forced sex. Now
40:32
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily going to be a tie back, but
40:36
Speaker 1: it does demonstrate that she was involved in uh, potentially
40:40
Speaker 1: violent sex. And if she's involved with a boyfriend, you
40:45
Speaker 1: wouldn't suspect that, Okay, but it would go It would
40:48
Speaker 1: kind of put the investigators on the track of somebody
40:51
Speaker 1: else that would have had to have forced her to
40:53
Speaker 1: have had sex. Wait a minute, what about this? I
40:56
Speaker 1: know that I'm going back to your as search and
41:00
Speaker 1: that if you've had a v S sectomy, you don't
41:03
Speaker 1: leave behind d N A. Now true, you know if
41:06
Speaker 1: you look at that on its face, you cannot get
41:10
Speaker 1: DNA from the semen of a vasectimized male. That's true,
41:16
Speaker 1: I agree with you, not from this semen. But what
41:19
Speaker 1: about this? What about epithelial cells? Epithelial cells which is
41:26
Speaker 1: like a wet skin cell um Let me think how
41:30
Speaker 1: to say this. Your body makes cells to line and
41:33
Speaker 1: protect parts of your body like the mouth, the vagina,
41:38
Speaker 1: the lining, the ereth lining of the penis. Those cells
41:43
Speaker 1: come from a layer like shingles on a roof, right, Okay,
41:48
Speaker 1: So they don't have a nuclei like sperm wood or
41:52
Speaker 1: the root of a hair. But you've got the other
41:57
Speaker 1: the wet skin cells. I'm wondering, Joe Scott Morgan, if
42:04
Speaker 1: we used a more advanced type of DNA testing on
42:13
Speaker 1: those wet apathelial cells, that we would get not a
42:18
Speaker 1: nucleus but another type of Wait wait, wait this this
42:22
Speaker 1: is irrelevant. He's already said he had sex with her.
42:25
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. We know that that is from him,
42:27
Speaker 1: So all of our DNA discussion, he's moved. He's already said.
42:31
Speaker 1: So we just don't know was it rape or was
42:34
Speaker 1: it consensual? What about the fact to Troy Slayton that
42:39
Speaker 1: the wreck is a hundred yards from the home. Sure,
42:42
Speaker 1: that doesn't look good. But even if he had sex
42:47
Speaker 1: with her, even if it was rough sex, that doesn't
42:53
Speaker 1: mean that he was the one that killed her. And
42:57
Speaker 1: you know, just just stop, Troy. You know what, rest
43:01
Speaker 1: the body and placed her in the ditch. Dr Brian
43:04
Speaker 1: Russell no offense. Uh, And I'm not a man hater.
43:06
Speaker 1: Dr Brian Russell Contrary to what many people think. Brian
43:09
Speaker 1: Russell host a fatal vows on Investigation Discovery. Why is
43:13
Speaker 1: it it's always men who talk about how women want
43:16
Speaker 1: rough sex? I've never heard a single woman talk about
43:19
Speaker 1: how she wants rough sex. And they only talk about
43:22
Speaker 1: it when the woman ends up dead, Like in the
43:25
Speaker 1: Preppy Killer. It's always, oh, she wanted rough sex. Whoopsy,
43:27
Speaker 1: she's dead. Why is that? Dr Brian Russell. Every woman
43:31
Speaker 1: that's listening to this right now is just shaking her head. No. Well,
43:35
Speaker 1: I think it's in a way, it's it's the only
43:39
Speaker 1: way to uh explain how you could get some of
43:45
Speaker 1: the same uh you know, physical uh indicators of rape
43:51
Speaker 1: without their having been a rape with with you know,
43:55
Speaker 1: from some kind of consensual activity. It's it's sort of
43:57
Speaker 1: the only, uh, the only to try to explain it away.
44:02
Speaker 1: Long story short, there is still a single sign remaining
44:08
Speaker 1: calling for justice, claiming that local police took some sort
44:13
Speaker 1: of a bribe not to solve the case. Now, to me,
44:18
Speaker 1: at first glance, that sounds outlandish, But why is it?
44:24
Speaker 1: Why is it this case has never been solved. I
44:27
Speaker 1: mean to me, it sounds like there's the makings of
44:31
Speaker 1: a circumstantial case. So what's happening now in the case
44:35
Speaker 1: Cheryl White, and what is going on right now is
44:38
Speaker 1: that they continue to look at the evidence. They have
44:41
Speaker 1: reopened this cold case. They've doubled the reward money to
44:46
Speaker 1: six thousand dollars. So they have reopened this case and
44:50
Speaker 1: they are now searching for evidence that will lead them
44:53
Speaker 1: to the killer. The murder of Cathy Page, as of now,
44:56
Speaker 1: remains unsolved. There is no official suspect in the case.
45:04
Speaker 1: Her husband, her ex husband, still declares his innocence. Take
45:10
Speaker 1: a listen to the local police chief right through the
45:13
Speaker 1: entire case file. Because of the you know, because of
45:15
Speaker 1: the billboard I announced that pushed it forward in my
45:18
Speaker 1: mind coming into this community. I believe that Kathy Page,
45:21
Speaker 1: you know, she deserves justice. I think the Page family
45:24
Speaker 1: deserves justice. I think somebody here in Southeast Texas knows
45:30
Speaker 1: the answers. I think that they just they need to
45:34
Speaker 1: get right and have a conscience and come form right now.
45:46
Speaker 1: We remember Corporal move Shahid runs In a fourteen year
45:52
Speaker 1: VET Prince George County Police Department, Maryland also awarded the
45:57
Speaker 1: Medal of Valor two thousand and six Retard Marine previously
46:02
Speaker 1: assigned to p g p D Special Obs Division, Harbor Unit.
46:07
Speaker 1: Graduating Central Texas College with a degree in Criminal Justice
46:11
Speaker 1: and Political Science leaves behind a grieving widow for children.
46:17
Speaker 1: He was his mother's only son. Corporal Mujahid RUMs Inden
46:24
Speaker 1: American hero Nancy Grace Crime Stories signing off goodbye friend.
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