Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 152 - Victory at Last!
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Music. Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:18 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battles wage and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad and Dr G 0:33 I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr G 0:57 Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am Dr G, Dr Rad 1:05 and I am Dr Rad, Dr G 1:07 And we are exploring Rome from its foundation, and we are up to 401. BCE. Dr Rad 1:15 Indeed we are Dr G. Now before we get into this particular year in ancient Roman history, looking at our different sources, let's do a very, very quick recap of the previous year, which was 402, BCE, I think I can sum it up very succinctly. There was a lot of fighting between two of the military tribunes with consular power, and it led to them massively embarrassing themselves in front of all of Rome. Dr G 1:41 Awkward, awkward, yeah. Look, I think the thing that I talked about was the archeological record for what is happening between Veii and Rome from this time period, just to give some different context to what this relationship is like between these two places which are not very far from each other? Dr Rad 2:04 No, they are not all right. So now that we done 402 we can dive straight into 401 BC, ah. Dr G 2:36 401 BC, it is quite the time to be alive. There are six military tribunes with consular power. And Dr Rad 2:46 I also have some names for some tribunes of the plebs. They're not just faceless opponents anymore. Me too. This is very exciting. It is all right. So tell me who are the military tribunes with consular power this year. All right, Dr G 2:58 first cab off the rank, Lucius Valerius Potitus. Dr Rad 2:58 Heard of this guy before. Dr G 3:05 We have seen this guy before. Previously, military tribune with consular power in 414, 406 and 403 so this is his fourth time in the job. I hope he's good at it. We also have Marcus Furius Camillus. Dr Rad 3:23 Ah. Now this will be a famous name, not quite famous yet, not Dr G 3:27 quite famous yet. So I feel like we've been touching on the edges of this guy. He was previously listed Dr Rad 3:35 naughty, naughty. Dr G 3:38 He was previously listed as a military Tribune with consular power in 403, but 401 this year seems to be a more secure date for this guy, sure. So we will see Dr Rad 3:51 the cusp of his career Dr G 3:53 every time I think he's about to start. We also have Manlius Aelius Mamercinus slash Mamercus, depending on how you like to spell it, yeah. He's Dr Rad 4:07 actually held a consulship before, hasn't? He? Very fancy. Dr G 4:11 Was consul in 410 and previously also a military Tribune with consular power in 405 and 403 nice. Yeah, so you know, he's been about traps. In addition, we have Gnaeus Cornelius, Cossus also previously a military Tribune with consular power in 406 and 404 Kaeso Fabius Ambustus also previously held the position in 404 and finally, Lucius, Julius Vopisci Iulius. Dr Rad 4:46 He's about the only one that doesn't seem super familiar. All the rest obviously, repeat customers. Dr G 4:52 Siege times. I think so. I mean, if there's anything to indicate to us that they. Might be a siege. I feel like it would be the fact that we've got some really recurring players right now, Dr Rad 5:05 yeah. But also, I think probably the fact that the previous military tribunes of the consular power basically got dismissed from office in disgrace. I think that's another reason why the Romans might like to have some experienced people, yeah, Dr G 5:19 fair enough, yeah. Let's get the experience guys out on the field, and let's get this victory happening Dr Rad 5:25 absolutely now, I believe we both agree that there are also some tribunes to talk about here. There are, but Dr G 5:31 before we go into that, let me just mention, and I know you will be unsurprised by this, but all of these guys holding this military tribunate With consular power are patricians? Dr Rad 5:43 Well, just goes without saying, doesn't it? Dr G, do you want any grubby little plebeians getting any power? Dr G 5:48 Only people from the elite know how to wield the sword Dr Rad 5:51 Exactly, exactly anyway. Dr G 5:53 So the tribunes are the plebs. We've got some. There's a whole bunch of them. For some reason, all of a Dr Rad 5:58 sudden, we go from just having faceless people trying to cause problems to like, what is it? Six? Yeah, Dr G 6:03 I think it's much easier, from a narrative perspective, to be able to be like, Oi Marcus. Stop it bizarre. So our tribunes of the plebs. Now listeners take note of these names, not the first names, because they're all pretty standard, but the last names for these guys give us a real sense that we're dealing with different families. So we've been really used to seeing patrician family names come up and get repeated over and over to the point that we're confused. Is one Claudius better than another Claudius? Speaker 1 6:35 No? Like the Amelii or the Valerii, yeah, like all Dr G 6:40 of the guys that we just mentioned, those names have been in the rotation quite a lot in very simple, yeah, exactly. The Furii? How can I not mention them? Camillus is one of those Furii. Exactly. And these guys, these tribune of the plebs, are all coming from different family lines, which give us a sense of the perhaps, what is the broadening birth structure that also is equivalent to class, potentially, that is going on in Rome at this point in time. So we have Marcus Acutius, Publius Curiatius, Gaius Lacerius, Marcus Metelius, Marcus Minucius, which might be maybe the closest that we Speaker 1 7:23 get. That's right, yeah, that's the only one I've ever heard of before. Yeah. And you may Dr G 7:27 have also heard of Gnaeus Trebonius. That's true, the Trebonius name, yeah. So these groups of names, Acutius, Curiatius, Lacerius, Metilius. These are just names that sound Latin, but they don't come to us through this sort of patrician lineup that we're used to seeing. Yes, Dr Rad 7:48 absolutely. Well, Dr, G, 401, the reason why we might have so many named characters is that it is a bumper year for Rome. It's like they know it's the end of the century. Dr G 8:01 You gotta give people something juicy for the end of the century. Speaker 1 8:05 Yeah. So there's a lot of war going on in this year. We, of course have the siege against they but there's also going to be Capena and Falerii involved in that. And we've also got war against the Volscians on the horizons, because, of course, the Romans just lost Anxur, which they had stolen from the Volscians, but they consider it theirs now, and they want it back. Dr G 8:28 I see very intriguing. Well, I have almost next to nothing or like, what Dr Rad 8:34 happened I was gonna say, are you really gonna chime in here? Dr G 8:37 I mean, I do have some things to tell you, but I will maybe hold off on most of them, except for one, if I may, okay, be bold initially, sure. So I just want to have a bit of a throwback to the Lex Trebonia of Dr Rad 8:52 448, that is going to come into my narrative later. If you, Oh, you want me to hold tight? Well, it's up to you. It does come in, but just not until a bit later. Okay, I Dr G 9:02 only mention it because we've just listed all of the tribune of the plebs, and there's a connection there. But I can, I Dr Rad 9:07 promise. I can hold on. It'll be just a moment, and then we'll be there. Patience, patience. Background, yes, okay, before we deal with all the war that's on the horizon for Rome, naturally, there are some internal issues that we have to deal with, of course, yeah. Now, I think you can probably guess what these revolve around. They're kind of standard issues for Roman society, apparently, which is that if you want to fight a war, you need to have a levy. Dr G 9:35 I hate that. That's very annoying. You've got to round up people. Get them on board. Yeah, get them excited. Now there's going Dr Rad 9:40 to be an issue about that, and I'll explain what it is in a moment. There's also an issue, though, around the fact that people are apparently now paying a war tax, Dr G 9:49 excuse me, yeah, that's never been mentioned before, a war tax. Dr Rad 9:54 Look, this is, I think, revolving around the issues around funding that we've been talking about. You know, the fact that they've introduced. Use Military Pay, and that's the thing, the money has to cut from somewhere. Dr G 10:03 Are you? Wait a minute. Yeah, wait a minute. Wait, wait. Dr Rad 10:06 Question the narrative. Wait, wait, wait. Question, the Dr G 10:08 narrative. No, no. Hold up. You're telling me, first of all, people are getting paid. So, I mean, this is something we've talked about a little bit. Now, that's fine, but who's now paying for the pay. It's being paid through through taxation. Who's getting taxed to pay for the pay? This Dr Rad 10:26 is the issue that the tribunes brought up when originally the idea of military pay was introduced. So like, Sure, these guys, who are all elite and stuff, might be contributing to get a scheme off the ground, but who's going to be paying for it long term, it's going to have to be financed from somewhere, looking at you guys, and this is the whole issue that they were talking about when they were saying, follow the money. This is exactly what people are having issues with. Now, I feel Dr G 10:52 like there's been a lack of transparency, and I have not seen the legislation get passed. It's obviously highly questionable. Rome is not functioning like a proper Republic right now. Yeah, Dr Rad 11:03 it's all highly questionable, of course, because what would they be paying the tax in? How would they be paying the taxes? All sorts of questions that we want to really Dr G 11:10 in the aes rude that I talked about last episode, giant pieces of bronze made of rectangles. Yeah, exactly. Dr Rad 11:17 Rome doesn't have coinage at this point in time. It's all very confusing, but I need to proceed with my narrative. So if you would please, okay, the military tribunes, of course, want to levy the troops, and naturally they're going to be recruiting young men, standard so far, so good. But they start enlisting older men too, because they want to make sure that Rome itself is to be protected, Dr G 11:42 enlisting older men too. Why? Hello there, Rome. Dr Rad 11:47 Now the issue of military pay becomes difficult at this point, because they're widening the levy. Because, obviously, the more men you're enlisting, the more money you need to pay for this army also, Dr G 11:59 is it the same men that you're levying that you need to pay for the pay? Dr Rad 12:03 Well, this is where it gets confusing. So this is why they need to pay for it by collecting a tax. This is where the tax comes into it. So you see, oh, yeah, completely logical so far. Yeah, the Roman citizens aren't thrilled about paying this tax because they're already having to help the war effort in generally and, you know, protecting the city and that sort of thing. And that sort of thing, and just working for the benefit of Rome in general. They don't feel like they should have to pay a tax. On top of that, the tribunes of the plebs, of course, come charging in at this moment. They sniff an opportunity. They accuse the senators of planning this all along. The senators were clearly intending to wreck everybody's life by not only make half of the citizen body serve in the army, they were then going to tax the rest to death, Dr G 12:51 right? Okay, well, that does sound rather dramatic coming from the tribune of the plebs. I mean, the problem for the elites is if they tax you to death, or they send you to wars and you all die. Yes, is that there is no one for the elite to parade around in front of and pretend they're better than Dr Rad 13:07 Yes. Well, look, they don't stop there. They say, clearly, you are also behind the siege at Veii lasting this long, it is your fault so that it is being strung out this long, it's because you have been mismanaging this whole affair that it's dragged on as long as it has, and now you have the nerve to levy armies for four wars, resorting to using mere boys and the elderly, who I presume are people in their 40s and 50s as Well, forcing the plebeians to serve all winter and work all year round, and now a tax on top of all of that. So let me just get this straight. The plebs work their guts out and fight themselves into early graves, whilst neglecting their own lives and their own properties. And finally, if they've managed to return, and they get a chance to put their feet up, they have to pay our tax. I mean, this is exactly the kind of thing that makes a military pay situation laughable. The idea that's benefiting anyone Dr G 14:16 Say it ain't so! Dr Rad 14:20 now, if you're sensing that there's some Gracchan parallels here, I would say yes, yes, there are Dr G 14:28 Livy. What are you doing? Dr Rad 14:30 Look, it's, once again, that whole idea of, you know, controlling land, looking after land, all of that kind of stuff that comes into it. So the people were completely consumed by these issues, and around the time that they are trying to process this whole levy tax situation, this is when the tribunes of the plebs are having their elections. Okay? And they actually didn't have enough men elected to the office, which means and. This is, I think, where we're going to come into what you're talking about here. They start playing with the idea that patricians be allowed to be introduced to the magistracies, to fill the spaces. And I think this is where your Trebonian Law thing is going to come in. Dr G 15:15 I interject, throwback, 448, I know it's clear in all of our minds. Like was yesterday, yeah, practically yesterday we recorded the year 448 in 2021 Wow. It was a little while back. So something unusual does take place that year. So Livy records that two patrician ex-consuls are elected to serve as tribunes of the plebs in that year. There's doubt about the accuracy of that claim. Fair enough. It's Livy. It's a it's a weird time period. We're not sure about most things to do with this century, and we're right at the end of it. But there is this sense that people get up in arms about this concept. So some of the new tribunes had been consulting with patricians, and then there's this sort of co-option that sort of takes place. So it's getting messy. So it seems like there is a way in which the patricians have seen an opportunity to potentially undermine the tribune of the plebs by bringing themselves into it, yes, and the problem with that is that the plebeians are not going to stand for it. So Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law. Now, the name trebonius, we assume, must be a plebeian name, and we get another trebonius this year as well. So Dr Rad 16:42 coincidence, I think. No, no, I Dr G 16:44 do think so. Lucius Trebonius pushes for a law that stipulates that elections for tribune of the plebs need to continue until no fewer than 10 tribunes of the plebs are elected, and they should be plebeian. Yeah. So he ends up getting given a cognomen Asper (Prickly), in recognition of his fight to keep patrician power in check. So that's the kind of broader context. And here we are in 401 and all of a sudden we've got another Trebonius in there, but we've also got this sense that maybe the patricians are looking to get another foothold, because obviously the critique that's being leveled at them right now is severe. It is that you're pushing everybody to the brink of their livelihood and their economic capacity, and for what you're sitting outside they and your generals, your upper class guys are sitting there having little infights with each other rather than getting on with it. Yes, and the result of that is more lost life, losing places like unksel Because you're not watching them properly and you want to tax us for your mistakes. Yes, like you get to be in charge if you don't fuck it up, Dr Rad 18:03 as RuPaul would say, yes, exactly. I think that's how things are kind of being set up. So we basically have these guys, Marcus Acutius and Gaius Lacerius, who are selected for the office after they couldn't find enough people. And it said that these guys are definitely chosen because of patrician influence, and this is what sparks the current day Trebronius, as in the one that's actually around in 401, to defend the Trebronian Law, obviously, because it has to do with his family in particular, and he wants to make sure that this law about the cooptation is being upheld. So this guy claims that the law is being ignored. And he's correct, and manages to create, obviously, a lot of unhappiness, because for the patricians to be taking away these positions and ignoring a law that's obviously to do with plebeian rights, it's a bad situation. So people are also really mad now at all the tribunes of the plebs except Trebronius, of course, whether they were the ones who were doing the co-opting or they were co-opted into it at this point in time, and there's just a lot of tension within Rome about the whole situation. So the three tribunes of the plebs, who had been leaned on by the patricians, are extremely worried about this situation. And this is Publius Curatius, Marcus Metilius and Marcus Minucius, and they decide what they're going to do is to distract people about the whole issue of co optation. Obviously, I think people are mad, because presumably it means that these current tribunes of the plebs were obviously under patrician influence as well, even though they might not have been patricians themselves, they decide they're going to prove themselves and distract people by going after Sergius and wagenius, you might remember as the military tribunes with consular power who were causing so many dramas last episode, and caused this huge military problem because they were fighting amongst themselves, and they decided, look, we can channel all the negativity that people are feeling surrounding the election of the tribunes of the plebs and the water. And everything into a particular trial against these two guys, and these guys will be the scapegoat, all right, Dr G 20:06 so this is in some respects a distraction tactic away from the CO option of a couple of these tribunes as sort of stooges for the patricians by challenging some other patricians at trial. Yes, Dr Rad 20:21 I think this is exactly okay. I think we've got the noble trebonius, you know, the holder of his family's legacy, as being the one who's sort of speaking out against what's happening. The others obviously seem like they have taken some sort of patrician bribe or something like that in order to make this happen. So there's all that ill feeling happening. So they decide, let's put these guys on trial. These three tribunes say that Sergius and Virginius are the problem and that they've just been pointing fingers at each other for this whole mess. They say it's probably something that was set up in advance by the patricians or the senators, because it is just too hard to believe the insanity that happened in the previous year, that they would allow the army from Veii to set fire to what the Romans had built. They obviously want the water drag on. So, yeah, exactly. This is like they're it's not just incompetence. This is a deliberate plan, and that they had basically just given things up to the Faliscans, who had joined in on the side of Veii at this point in time, the patricians, therefore, must be trying everything to use they to stop any other advances from happening for the plebeians. So they is basically one huge Sideshow to stop questions about land reform, to stop the plebeians from having lots of people at their assemblies because they're all too busy out fighting, you know, they're all too busy serving in the army, to stop them from being able to foil an evil patrician conspiracy. Dr G 20:21 Oh, the struggle of the orders. It's not over, my friends. Dr Rad 22:10 And basically they're saying that the Roman men had to fight their way back to the city because of what Sergius and Verginius had done. It's all the fault of these incompetent men. Like, how are these people, the ones that are in power? And whilst the gods are not necessarily directly punishing Sergius and Verginius, they're saying, Come on, Romans, let's use this opportunity which the gods have provided for us to seek our vengeance against what they have done, wow, conspiracy. Dr, G, yeah. And it goes deep. Dr G 22:44 I'm feeling it all the way, all the way to the top, to the gods themselves. Yes, Dr Rad 22:48 yes, exactly. Now the plebeians find them guilty fairly quickly. Well, well, well. And they order them each to pay a fine, of which I have given the precise figure of 10,000 pounds of bronze. Oh, that's quite a lot Nice. Sergius tries to blame fortune, saying that it's really just this that's to blame. War is unpredictable. It's a matter of chance. You know exactly. Stuff happens. What do you expect? Stuff happens. You Dr G 23:15 roll the dice, and sometimes you win, and sometimes they marches on your army, exactly. Dr Rad 23:23 So Verginius is like, yeah, look, you know, the whole thing last year was pretty bad already. Haven't I suffered enough without being put through all of this as well? Dr G 23:34 Wow, two very different responses, like, I've been having a tough time, guys. And you know, you know what this trial has made me realize just how tough a time I'm having? Dr Rad 23:44 Yeah, exactly. And it kind of works in that it seems that the whole issue of tribunes being co opted, the fact that the Trebonian Law is being ignored, that kind of seems to fall to one side, and the tribunes of the plebs decide that the people should capitalize on the fact that they seem to be on a roll with patrician vengeance at this point in time. We took down two and who's next, exactly. And so they decide, what better time than now to have a land law campaign? Oh, Dr G 24:14 yes, let's get the agrarian campaign back on the agenda. Yeah, Dr Rad 24:18 exactly. And they also say, and while we're at it. Let's just do away with the war tax. Let's say no to the war tax, even though the money is desperately needed now to fund all the armies. They're like, well, the armies aren't really achieving anything decisive, so let's just forget all about Dr G 24:34 that. Now this sounds like potentially the kind of moment where the tribute of the plebs could shoot themselves in the foot. Yeah? Being like, Look, if we don't pay the war tax, that will teach the patricians who's who around here, and then Veii turns up at their doorstep and they don't have anybody because they haven't been able to levy anybody, because they've got no money anymore. Dr Rad 24:56 Yeah, and the issue is that the Roman army is having. Some successes, like, certainly nothing definitive, which is what the tribunes are saying. They're like, Well, yeah, like they might be doing okay, but it's okay, good enough for attacks. I don't think so. So it seems that Manius Aemilius and Kaeso Fabius, they're in Veii. They're dealing with the siege, and they are under them the army managers to retake everything that they had lost, so the camp that they lost in the previous year. And they are also building up their defenses, building fortresses, garrisons, the whole work. So things are going back fairly well at ve then we have Marcus Furius, who is fighting against the Faliscans at this moment in time. We have Gnaeus Cornelius fighting in Capena. And these, of course, are the two groups that have joined vague, because they realized they were next in line. Didn't have decisive conflict with the enemy, but they managed to attack their land, burnt their houses, their crops, did not attack any towns, but, you know, they've done some destruction and that sort of thing. Okay, so general pillaging or whatnot, yeah? Okay, yeah. And then we have Valerius Potitus, who's fighting against the Volscians and attempting to retake Anxur. Now, it Speaker 2 26:08 hasn't exactly worked, but they haven't been beaten off, and so they again establishing themselves defensively, you know, building a stockade and a trench and that sort of thing. So it could not be worse timing with the Romans having all these men out in the field that the tribunes are causing problems back home over the issue of paying these guys. Yeah, I was going to say, so it sounds like we've got some real military grind work going on out in the field. And I think what's interesting here is the idea that it has not taken very long for this introduction of military pay, which still might be up for being disputed at this point, for it to turn into narratively, to something that must occur in order for war to take place. Like you can't do a levy anymore, it would seem, unless there's going to be a guarantee of payment. Yes, war, attack. Dr Rad 27:03 However, in the narrative that we've got, the unhappiness from within the city starts spreading because, of course, the soldiers aren't getting paid, which is what they have apparently been promised. And so they're getting all antsy because they're not getting what they thought they were going to be getting. And so obviously, patricians and plebeians are like at each other's throats because of this situation that is having a ripple effect all throughout the city and all throughout wherever Romans are serving. The tribunes of the plebs call on the people to re establish liberty. They say, We no longer want patricians like Sergius and meginius getting into power because they're rubbish. Quite frankly, look at what a shocking job they've done. They've just been found guilty of obviously negligent, like some sort of treason, basically against the state, or something like that, and they're calling out their fellow pabeans to make sure that these sorts of men can never get elected again. And Dr G, it's a moment. It's a historic moment, a plebeian gets elected for the following year as a military tribune with consular power. Oh my, I know I feel like it's a moment to celebrate. Where's the champagne? Dr G 28:13 We must have a moment of silence. Dr Rad 28:16 Unbelievably, that it takes this, it takes this level of incompetence, and also, seemingly the tribunes of the plebs being very sneaky, that we finally get a military Tribune with consular power being elected from the plebeian class right at the turn of the century. I was Dr G 28:36 going to say how narratively convenient terms of our timeline. I know Dr Rad 28:42 it's almost as though Livy planned somebody Dr G 28:44 writing history a lot further away from the events and maybe tweaking things so that they happen on a specific timeline. Oh, Dr Rad 28:54 and with particular families as well. I mean, a trebonius being around to protest the fact that his ancestor's lore is being overturned. The fact that at the time of the original lex Trebonia, there was a Verginius who was a consul, and now we have another one who's involved in the story the names as well of the tribunes of the plebs, it doesn't really make sense for this patrician plebeian divide. Okay, what Dr G 29:21 you're trying to tell me is that truth is stranger than fiction. I know it's hard Dr Rad 29:25 to believe, but as we've highlighted a number of times, one of the biggest issues with trying to unravel the patrician versus plebeian divide in ancient Rome is the fact that the names don't always match up. So we have had in the past people serving as consuls or military tribunes with consular power, who seem to be from plebeian families, which doesn't seem to make any sense at all. And then, of course, we also have people who are tribunes of the plebs who come from what we know as being patrician families. In this particular instance. So, for example, we think it must be the Curiatii Minucii. It seems like they should be patricians at this point in time, in terms of their where their family's situated. So the fact that they're serving as Tribune to the plebs, it's all very confusing. The Metilii, we don't even think they've arrived in Rome at this moment, and yet somehow they're in the mix Dr G 30:21 so in terms of thinking about like, what are the fundamental issues here? It's like, it's the access to information that could be construed in as any way reliable at this point in time by the people who are writing this source material that we are so lucky to have. And this puts me in mind of some of the things that come up in the scholarship and through further research that people have done around the nature of language and what is going on here. So I don't have any sources. The best I've got for you is some Diodorus Siculus to let you know what's going on in Sicily, in Sicily. But what I do have is some names and the way that they come through in some of our source material that perhaps suggests that there's so little that we really know. So you might recall that the king Servius Tullius has an alternative name which is completely different. Yes, this Macstrna, yeah, which he's Etruscan self. Yeah, he's Etruscan name, which is recorded and sometimes associated with him, but doesn't have anything in appearance or sound to do with Latin, by the looks of it. But then we have other figures that come through, that come through the Etruscan record as well. There is a Marce Camitinas, who we think becomes Camillus, yeah, and he's depicted in a painting of the Vulci, and is in a tomb. There is also the other Etruscan name, Cneve Tarchunies Rumach, which seems to be the name of the Tarquinii. And so even at the point of the level of like, who's who, and the best we've got, besides Livy and other source material that might be writing from a much later perspective, is this Fasti Capitolini, which we lean heavily on as an artifact, but itself is quite late, yes, as well. And so teeing up these kinds of names, and then having a source like Diodorus Siculus, who's clearly been in touch with some of the Latin evidence, but doesn't always get it right, and then knowing that the Etruscans have their own system of language, and write down names that sound like they're going to become Latin names to us, and there seem to be some parallels it's just bonkers how little we know. So the fact that we have this beautiful narrative from Livy is incredible to me. I love it, and it's also like the depth and complexity that he's offering here of a society in a moment of transition is really powerful. And this idea that there is this sub sort of plus structure fight going on and families vying for power and control over the principal positions, it's amazing, and I want to believe that those stories are true, and it's really hard to reconcile with what we have from other sort of bits and pieces here and there, which stand outside that written material, but come from that archeological context. Yeah, Dr Rad 33:27 and this is the thing I feel like I can't quite finish this story without actually going into the next year because there's a really intriguing detail that I think is going to blow your mind. Dr G 33:39 Well, I put it to you that it will have to hold your horses a little bit. Dr Rad 33:43 Okay. Well, can I, can I tell you this one detail? We can come back to it, but I have to tell you this one detail. Okay, okay, so the guy, because these two years blend together in the way that Livy is telling them, the guy who becomes the first plebleian military Tribune with consular power is Publius Licinius Calvus. Now we will come back to this, but I just want to leave you on this, because it's so unbelievable. Livy s sort of goes into why was this the guy, why was this the guy who was chosen to be the first because he hadn't held any sort of offices before, and I quote the English translation, but was only a senator of long standing now, well on in years now, Dr G 34:25 whoa, what are you telling me? There have been plebeians in the Senate the Dr Rad 34:29 whole time, apparently, so and it so. It brings us back to that essential question, which we've been wrestling with this entire time, of who the hell are patricians? Who are the plebeians? How do we define these things? I mean, obviously it makes sense. I understand that the Senate can't be made up of just ex-magistrates. Dr G 34:48 That's right, that would be weird. Yeah, at the beginning there weren't any. Dr Rad 34:50 Exactly, there were none. And then even if we go back to, you know, like 50 years ago, whatever, they still wouldn't have been enough to make up a Senate if it's given. Scale that the Senate is in our source material. So Oh, my God, we're going to delve into that more detail next time. But it just goes to show right at this moment, this very, very important episode where we finally reached a milestone how many more questions I have, and we are going to have to go back to that original question of patricians, papillions. Who are they and where do they come from? Dr G 35:20 What is this and why does it keep happening? And are we sure it's real? Were they there at the dawning of the sun and at the setting of the sun? We shall remember exactly, oh, my god. Anyway, that Dr Rad 35:31 just blew my mind. That Dr G 35:35 is an incredible detail, and I'm going to ruminate over that between the end of this recording and the next recording let you go Dr Rad 35:43 without telling you that, because I'm like, it's actually, I actually don't even care about the fact that he's the first plebeian military tribune with consular power. Once I read that, sentence I was like, holy cow! Dr G 35:54 what's been sitting in the Senate for years? Dr Rad 35:56 Yeah, she's been lurking there. Like, it's just like, What is going on? Who let him in. What's going on? So, yeah, so much that is intriguing right at the turn of the century and look, I agree with you. The thing is, what we have to remember is we're dealing with this situation with Veii, right? And this is a very important moment for Rome, and we've already sort of hinted to our audience this is going to be the last showdown with Veii. I think you all know how that ends up. However, we also are facing a disaster for Rome, the Gallic sack of Rome, which is coming up on the horizon. And this is the excuse that our sources give us. Excuse me. I know, believe me, Rome about to get trashed. This is the excuse that our sources use for how confusing this particular century is. And I actually felt very reassured I was doing some research for the show. And it sort of was this chapter that was all about how the fifth century is probably the most difficult in Roman history to figure out. It's even worse than the period under the kings. Because, okay, look, the Kings might be mythical, whatever, at least we have some detail. So you have some myths, you know, for this century, it just, there's so many questions and academics just they have such different opinions. It is Dr G 37:04 baffling. And I think there is the potential to take an archeological perspective, which would leave us with not too much to go on, but definitely the suggestion that there was conflict in this century in the local region surrounding Rome, for sure. So I've got a bit of information from a paper by Bartolini and Michetti from 2019 vague during the Archaic period the sixth and fifth centuries BCE. And this is backing up that paper by Ariza and Rossi that I was talking about in the previous episode, that there is a reasonable amount of archeological evidence to suggest that we've got cultural exchange going on, but also a build up of military engagement across these two cities Yeah, so that all makes sense. Cool things like the introduction of the terracotta roof tile. You know, everybody likes a good terracotta roof tiles. They're Dr Rad 38:04 so dangerous. They can fall at the moment. They Dr G 38:06 could fall on your head. Then you could be dead. Exactly who'd ever tell a story about that? Terracotta roof tiles. They get developed and in the seventh century, and they start to sort of flood the market, as it were, it's like new roofing materials. Hello. We also get the introduction of the Opus quadratum, style of brickwork, which is something that the Etruscans do when the Romans definitely adopt, which is the nice interlaying of bricks, where you don't need mortar they just sort of Nestle up against each other in different patterns to create an interlocking system. Yeah, very cool, yeah. And the way that tomb structures change, which I mentioned in the previous episode as well. So there's lots of ways in which there is cultural engagement cultural exchange and an increase in sort of militaristic defensive fines from this time period. So it's not like Livy is wrong, yeah, yeah. He's not wrong about the broad brush strokes. But I think what we are ultimately uncertain about, and maybe we'll never be able to be certain about, is the really fine detail of who's who, where are these stories coming from? Can we make sense of this chronological structure. Why do we seem to have some added years in here and all of this kind of jazz. Dr Rad 39:26 Look the whole thing about the tribunes, patricians, plebeians, co opting, a trial like none of it makes sense to me. Dr G 39:36 I kind of love how it's become so circular, where it's like, wait a minute, we've, we've done this thing, and now that we're now we've got taxes, and we're paying people, and it's all getting out of hand, and nobody wants to sign up anymore, and where are we going to get the cash from? Nobody knows we don't have currency we Dr Rad 39:53 just weren't ready for this. So I Dr G 39:55 think this is probably a good moment to wrap up this episode. Mode, knowing that we've got this really great story Dr Rad 40:04 of Yeah, the conflict of the orders is back with a vengeance. Yeah, coming Dr G 40:08 up on this cliffhanger note, because I'm so keen to talk about 400 now, but I think there's Dr Rad 40:13 no more to it. But I just had to tell you that Dr G 40:16 I genuinely do have some things about 400 so I'm excited to get there, okay, but I think it might be time for the Partial Pick. Dr Rad 40:31 Alright? Dr, G, the partial pick the moment when the Romans have a chance to win 50 golden eagles, 10 in each category. Tell me what are our categories? Dr G 40:44 Well, our first category is military clout, Dr Rad 40:47 right? Well, okay, the Romans are apparently having some success. And by success, I mean they are undoing the terrible performance of the previous year. Yeah. I Dr G 40:58 mean, you can only go up, can't you? Dr Rad 40:59 Yeah, no, I think they could go down. It could Dr G 41:03 be worse. Yes, yes. Look, this is not a great situation for them to be in. They've got some troops in the field. They've been doing some minor pillaging. Yeah, they've recouped their losses from having their camp invaded by they. They've attempted to take back on saw but not been successful yet, running in that? No, so I think that they're engaging in military things. I'm not sure that they're demonstrating a lot of clout right now. It might be a three, Dr Rad 41:27 yeah, yeah, okay, I'm on board with that. Okay, a three, it is Dr G 41:34 new arguments. Excellent. Look, Dr Rad 41:37 I'm weighing it carefully, and look, as I say, Yeah, regaining ground lost whilst they were being terrible is not the best. Dr G 41:44 It's not the best. This doesn't constitute a huge success. No, all right, our second category is diplomacy. No, they Dr Rad 41:53 are at war on multiple fronts. I think I've made that very clear. Dr G 41:56 They are not talking to any of their enemies right now? No, Dr Rad 42:00 there's just so much war going on that's no golden eagles. Yep, that's a zero, okay, expansion. Dr G 42:06 No, they're Dr Rad 42:08 not doing that. They Dr G 42:10 certainly haven't gained territory, although, if they've gained back the losses from outside of Bay, that is an improvement on their camp situation. That's Dr Rad 42:20 true, but that's just a camp. It's not like a permanent This is mine. That is your situation. I feel true. Dr G 42:25 I think that is also a zero. I think so too. Weirdos, no, Dr Rad 42:32 nobody seems to be very admirable, because, like even the tribunes of the plebs who put Sergio simogenius on trial, don't seem the most admirable tribunes I've ever come across like, I think the implication is meant to be that they're in the back pockets of the patricians. Yes, that does not seem ideal. And the other ones are apparently, you know, patrician candidates. So who cares about them? All Dr G 42:55 right? So, yeah, I don't think any of this behavior necessarily constitutes a great Roman sense of manliness, although they might argue otherwise, because I'm sure they would even Sergey Dr Rad 43:06 and vigineous. I mean, again, they just come off terribly. They Dr G 43:09 do sound like very rich, spoiled boys having a Slappy fight with each other. At least they've been found guilty. Okay, so that's a zero for weird to us. Yeah, the citizen score. Is this a great time for Romans on the average, look, Dr Rad 43:24 it's a hard one to judge, because technically, speaking, the first plebeian military Tribune with consular power does not actually start serving until next year. Yeah, we can't count that in this count, I was gonna say I don't know whether to count the election and the intention to have a plebeian military tripping with consular power. Well, see, Dr G 43:41 the trouble is that you could have an election, and you could have a candidate who is, you know, the elect as it were, sure, but might lose it before they get into office. But he doesn't. And we know that, okay, but we but the Romans don't know that, okay? Like he doesn't start until next year. Dr Rad 44:00 Okay, okay. But we do have the election. We do have the election happening, and we do, I suppose that's exciting. Yeah, we do have sergeys and wagenius being found guilty and being fined, so that's something. We do have tribunes who seemingly are pushing for things that the people would care about, but it seems to be very self interested, and if I don't know how to feel about it. Look, I Dr G 44:21 don't mind if they're doing something self interested, if it still benefits the general people, if the populace is still the beneficiary here by and large, I know. I'm not sure that I'm not that worried about intention. True, that's Dr Rad 44:33 true. It's very, it's a very tricky situation, this whole co option issue. Dr G 44:40 Yeah, look, it sounds a bit like corruption to me. Dr Rad 44:44 Well, basically, this thing, is it? This is the thing I feel like. This is just highlighting the fact that there have been pavilions and patricians who've been working together all along. Oh, well, we've looked at that. We've said that for years. You know that there are obviously pabians who are clients of the Patricia. How Dr G 45:00 dare you. I would never talk to a patrician. I would spit on them in the street. But this is what we've always Dr Rad 45:06 talked about. There are obviously going to be pavilions who have the same interests as the patricians, because they're both wealthy. Are you trying Dr G 45:13 to tell me that things are more complex than they seem? Certainly, all right, well, I don't know if that helps us with our citizen score, though. I mean, I agree with you. I'm on your side here. Dr Rad 45:24 I think that the at the end of the day, if we try and think about the situation that we're confronted without putting in any of Livy s little additions, we essentially have a lot of people at war, right? We also have them not being paid, which is the perk that they were promised. True. We also have the people back home, whoever they may be, whether they're patrician, plebeian or not paying a tax on this, which they're clearly unhappy about. So it seems like there's actually a lot of unhappiness about the only real perk, I would say, is that they've been able to hold Sergius and Verginius accountable, and that there's the possibility of more plebeian political involvement, all right, so Dr G 46:05 maybe a one? Yeah, Dr Rad 46:07 I have to say two. I have to say two because I feel like it's one for the trial and one for the election. Dr G 46:13 It's one for the trial and one for the election. It's three for a military Tribune, exactly. Don't Dr Rad 46:21 you dare step on my Roman leather shoes. Dr G 46:25 I was like, I don't have the lyrics. It doesn't work at all. I'm sorry, everybody all right. So that leaves us with a final score of, Dr Rad 46:35 I forgot to keep count. Five, five. Dr G 46:40 I was gonna say I think it's five. We gave them three for military clout, two for the citizen score, and none in any other character. Yeah. No, it's five. Five. Yeah, five, five. Golden Eagles Dr Rad 46:50 look it seems low, but I think next year will be an interesting one. Score wise, maybe the possibility of a high score, maybe, Dr G 46:58 well, yeah, I look forward to next time so we can find out together, Dr Rad 47:02 indeed, and hopefully we won't be consistently interrupted by my cat. Oh, Dr G 47:07 we've had we've had a guest star. Have you heard Hamish in the background of our podcast? Write in and tell us what you think. Dr Rad 47:15 Oh, dear. All right. Well, Dr, G, I look forward to seeing you and our plebeian military Tribune with consular power. Next one farewell. Thank you for listening to this episode of the partial historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman, you too can support our show and help us to produce more intriguing content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon in return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes. Today, we would like to say hello, hello. Hello to LJ, Israel, Christine Anders, Naomi and Eric, some of our recent Patreon members. Thank you so much for joining our partial band. However, if you just got mugged out in the dangerous streets of ancient Rome, please just tell someone about the show or give us a five star review until next time we are yours in ancient Rome. Daaa you thought we'd gone, but we haven't. 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