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Overland Journal Editor In Chief Tena Overacker on Submitting the Perfect Pitch · The Overland Journal Podcast

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to the Overland Journal podcast. I'm your
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: host today, Ashley Jerdano, and I have a very special
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: guest with me today. If you flipped to the masthead
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: of Overland Journal magazine, you will see a name Tina Overaker,
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: our editor in chief. You may have also seen a
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: couple of her articles floating around in the journal and
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: on the portal. Thank you so much for joining me
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: here today, Tina.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Good morning, Ashley.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I'm so excited to talk to you today about everything everything.
• 0:34
  Speaker 3: Let's do it and a special thanks to Dometic for
• 0:37
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• 1:14
  Speaker 1: So people are probably familiar with you if they're sending
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: pitches in because you're most of the time their primary contact.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: How did you get here? How did you start working
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  Speaker 1: at Overland Journal.
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  Speaker 4: It's kind of a long story. I'll try and shorten
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  Speaker 4: it up. And it also took a lot of time
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  Speaker 4: to get where I am today. But I got an
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  Speaker 4: introduction to Stephanie because they were looking for someone to
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  Speaker 4: come in as a light copy editor at the times.
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  Speaker 4: I remember the first people I met were actually Stephanie
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  Speaker 4: and Andre. At that time, Jonathan Hanson was just on
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  Speaker 4: his way out, as was Chris Marzoni. Chris Collard was
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: on his way in. And in the very beginning, all
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  Speaker 4: I did was very light copy editing as an independent
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  Speaker 4: contractor five times a year as part of our final
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: edit for each issue, so that really wasn't very much.
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  Speaker 4: And then it gradually just progressed. I was working with
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  Speaker 4: Chris Collard pretty closely, and he just started adding more
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  Speaker 4: and more responsibilities that he wanted from me, which was
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  Speaker 4: good because there was a time when I was thinking
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  Speaker 4: of leaving that would have changed everything. That's how it
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  Speaker 4: started way back then. And now I'm at the point where, yes,
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  Speaker 4: I'm editor in chief. And remember how many years have
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  Speaker 4: gone by, probably twelve. It took a while, but here
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  Speaker 4: I am, and it feels like the right place to be.
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  Speaker 1: So you were based in Prescott obviously the whole time,
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  Speaker 1: the whole time? Okay? Cool? And what did you do
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  Speaker 1: prior to this?
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  Speaker 4: Prior to running my little newspaper, Pop Rocket, I just
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  Speaker 4: have done many things.
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  Speaker 2: I call myself a jill of all trades. So I
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  Speaker 2: used to sell.
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  Speaker 4: Vintage clothing on eBay. I ran a store with my
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  Speaker 4: husband for a long time. I used to do research.
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  Speaker 4: Political science was my major, and so I spent some
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  Speaker 4: time that was kind of where I thought I wanted
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  Speaker 4: to be, was doing research and writing, and it just
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  Speaker 4: didn't end up that way.
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  Speaker 2: I was also a social worker.
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  Speaker 4: I worked with refugees for a while, particularly Southeast Asian refugees,
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  Speaker 4: and also all the Kosovars that came over at the time.
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  Speaker 2: So I I've done a lot of different stuff.
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  Speaker 4: I basically just do whatever I feel is called upon
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  Speaker 4: me at the time to do. I've never let not
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  Speaker 4: doing something before stop me.
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  Speaker 1: Is this the longest period of time that you've spent
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  Speaker 1: doing kind of one thing pretty much.
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  Speaker 4: I was always attracted to journalism. I was always attracted
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  Speaker 4: to writing. I love reading. It was always one of
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  Speaker 4: my strong strong pulls in terms of something that I
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  Speaker 4: wanted to do. And that's why I started my own
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  Speaker 4: paper as well. It's just funny where life takes you.
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  Speaker 4: So I was forced to sell my paper just due
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  Speaker 4: to circumstances.
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  Speaker 2: At the time. I had a business partner.
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  Speaker 4: I did all the graphics and I did all the editorial,
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  Speaker 4: and he took up and left very suddenly, and I
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  Speaker 4: had a six month old baby. So, like I said,
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  Speaker 4: ended up working for the paper that had bought my publication.
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  Speaker 4: And then it's just watching things come full circle. But
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  Speaker 4: as I said, I feel like I remember meeting Stephanie
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  Speaker 4: and Andre for the first time and walking into the
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  Speaker 4: office and thinking, I think this could turn into something,
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  Speaker 4: This may go somewhere.
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  Speaker 2: And it did.
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  Speaker 4: Like I said, it just took a little longer than
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  Speaker 4: I thought. But it doesn't matter. I'm where I'm supposed
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  Speaker 4: to be.
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  Speaker 1: That's awesome. What was the content of the newspaper? It
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  Speaker 1: was yours that you owned.
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  Speaker 4: Prescott is a fairly small town. But if you live
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  Speaker 4: in a city, you know, there's always those weeklies that
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  Speaker 4: tell you what's going on around town. So whether it's music, restaurants,
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  Speaker 4: things to do, a lot of times we'd incorporate trips,
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  Speaker 4: things to do in the area. What would you do
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  Speaker 4: if you were here, whether it be for a weekend
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  Speaker 4: or a local who's here forever.
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  Speaker 1: Nice What did you learn from that position? Like, what
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  Speaker 1: was the most important thing that you took from that
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  Speaker 1: role or that experience before you came here.
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  Speaker 4: Maybe just knowing that I could do it, being able
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  Speaker 4: to run my own publication. It was kind of it
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  Speaker 4: was pretty big jump. It was a pretty big leap
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  Speaker 4: of faith. And so going from that and then segueing
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  Speaker 4: into where I am today, you know, it seemed like
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  Speaker 4: a natural thing to do. I've always been a good manager.
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  Speaker 4: That's something another strong point of mine again, managing all
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  Speaker 4: those different aspects from editorial to advertising to whatever else
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  Speaker 4: was coming along. I mean, me and my business partner
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  Speaker 4: did it all. And that's a lot of how we
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  Speaker 4: work in this organization. Everyone wears a lot of hats.
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  Speaker 4: We're a small staff. We just make it work.
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  Speaker 1: We're a small team here and we were a lot
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  Speaker 1: of hats, So what are the hats that you wear?
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  Speaker 4: I've got a lot full of them and confirm yes,
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  Speaker 4: it's mostly just doing whatever you need to do at
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  Speaker 4: the time, So obviously I had to generalize. I'd call
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  Speaker 4: myself a fixer, like not in the goodfella's mobster sort
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  Speaker 4: of way, but and I will fix anything that needs
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  Speaker 4: to be fixed within my responsibilities of both Expedition Portal
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  Speaker 4: and Overland Journal. Scott said something to me recently It
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  Speaker 4: stuck with me, and he said, one of my superpowers
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  Speaker 4: is gently moving things forward, and I feel that that
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  Speaker 4: is what I'm always trying to do. And again, with
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  Speaker 4: a small staff, sometimes that happens at a slower pace
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  Speaker 4: than you would like. My primary objective is to always
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  Speaker 4: move us forward as a team, actually, and make sure
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  Speaker 4: that the team is everything that they need so that
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  Speaker 4: we can all move forward together.
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  Speaker 1: I've seen that in practice. That's fun to hear too,
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  Speaker 1: and I think he has a good way of explaining
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  Speaker 1: or describing that moving things forward. How have you seen
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Overland Journal and Expedition Portal change? Because you've been here
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  Speaker 1: for over a decade and I'm sure that you've seen
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  Speaker 1: a lot of changes happening along the way.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's funny because I say, we have a small
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  Speaker 4: staff now, but we had an even smaller staff, say
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  Speaker 4: five years ago, right, So Chris Cordis of course did portal.
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  Speaker 4: We had a managing editor, Sarah Ram. Obviously we've had
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  Speaker 4: Chris Coollard as editor in chief before. But I feel
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  Speaker 4: like we moved from a team of probably like three
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  Speaker 4: to five core people and maybe.
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  Speaker 2: We're now at like five to eight core people.
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  Speaker 4: That has been a change, and with that has come growth,
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  Speaker 4: which is really exciting. You know now that we even
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: have podcasts, that's a huge thing, right, and it's fantastic.
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  Speaker 4: You know, we've got the video support right now that
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  Speaker 4: we never had before. There's more and more people contributing
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  Speaker 4: to our magazine, more growth in general, and as everyone knows,
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  Speaker 4: the industry is exploding in the last couple of years,
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  Speaker 4: which is great. It gives us more resources to work
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  Speaker 4: with as well, so that we can keep growing. I
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  Speaker 4: just see a land of opportunity on all fronts.
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  Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, it's at a time too where I
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  Speaker 1: think that I've heard this quote like, oh, print is dead,
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  Speaker 1: but it doesn't feel that way at all. For Overland Journal.
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  Speaker 1: It feels like things continue to grow, which is great.
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  Speaker 2: It's true.
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  Speaker 4: I mean print is largely dying, and I always feel
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  Speaker 4: fortunate that we have a print magazine that does so well,
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  Speaker 4: and I feel like it's sort of in a space
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  Speaker 4: of its own. You know, it's almost more like a
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  Speaker 4: coffee table book, and we've got all these components that
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  Speaker 4: make it wonderful.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 4: Design, the design element is so strong. It's not a
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  Speaker 4: magazine that you want to throw away. You want it
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  Speaker 4: on your coffee table, you want to look at it.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 4: Our editorial component also is getting stronger and bringing on
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  Speaker 4: staff editors like yourself in Matt Sports. It just we
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  Speaker 4: keep getting stronger. And I think actually that maybe we're
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  Speaker 4: having a small team as an asset because we do
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  Speaker 4: work so closely together and we all have our eye
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  Speaker 4: on the magazine, and I think that works for us.
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  Speaker 1: What does a typical day look like for you?
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  Speaker 2: It's typical day.
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  Speaker 4: Well, it's a lot of reading and that changes, you know,
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  Speaker 4: the amount of hours. Yesterday I was in final edit
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  Speaker 4: or the summer twenty two issue, which is a little
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  Speaker 4: bit more intense, So it was about eleven hours of
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  Speaker 4: very careful reading through our issue just to make sure
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  Speaker 4: everything was in line.
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  Speaker 2: It's hard to even break down.
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  Speaker 4: And I will say that I'm in front of my
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  Speaker 4: desk way too much, and I'd like to change that
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  Speaker 4: a little bit, but at this time that's where I'm
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  Speaker 4: needed most.
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  Speaker 2: It's just in front of my desk.
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  Speaker 4: So whether it's email, setting up issues, copy editing, always
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  Speaker 4: copy editing during the day, whether it's for journal or
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  Speaker 4: expedition portal, going through and just managing all of the
• 7:50
  Speaker 4: content that's coming in. Where is it going, making sure
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  Speaker 4: our team has a support that it needs, trying to
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  Speaker 4: keep things on task. Do we have a bunch of
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  Speaker 4: gear sitting in our headquarters waiting to be reviewed?
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  Speaker 2: You know, where are.
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  Speaker 4: Your reviews at the time? Who needs support? Where do
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  Speaker 4: I need to be? It's just constant. There is no
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  Speaker 4: typical day.
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  Speaker 1: What is it like to see a piece come to
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  Speaker 1: fruition Because you see it come in as a pitch
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  Speaker 1: and you follow it all the way through the entire process,
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  Speaker 1: and it could be up to a year before it
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  Speaker 1: sees print sometimes because there are five issues per year.
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  Speaker 1: What is that like when you see that final product?
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  Speaker 1: It's very rewarding and also it can change. You know,
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  Speaker 1: with that amount of time that goes by, it's almost
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  Speaker 1: like you were visiting a piece again for the first
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  Speaker 1: time by the time it comes.
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  Speaker 2: Through to the edit of the specific issue.
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  Speaker 4: That we're working on. You know, some pieces come in
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  Speaker 4: cleaner than others. Some pieces require quite a bit of work,
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  Speaker 4: and that's actually where I get a lot of satisfaction
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  Speaker 4: because I'm trying to make the piece be its best
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  Speaker 4: and I'm trying to help the writer be their best,
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  Speaker 4: and so a lot of times there's a lot of
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  Speaker 4: back and forth.
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  Speaker 2: To see something come in.
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  Speaker 4: One way, to see a writer work on it, see
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: the team work on it, and see the final product,
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  Speaker 4: and to see that whole transition is very fun, and
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  Speaker 4: maybe it's a little bit different than it was when
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: it came in with a different focus. Again, it's making
• 9:00
  Speaker 4: it the best that it can be, making the writer
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  Speaker 4: the best that they can be, and I get a
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  Speaker 4: lot of satisfaction from them.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the storytelling aspect of that is really interesting, I know,
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  Speaker 1: because we've been working together on copy editing for a
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  Speaker 1: little while now, and to see the writer's voice come
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  Speaker 1: through with that clarity just by making a few changes
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: or you know, they go back and work on it
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  Speaker 1: a little bit. Is pretty cool to see the final
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  Speaker 1: product come through.
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  Speaker 4: And there are a few things that I always tell writers,
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  Speaker 4: and one of them is usually less is more. People
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  Speaker 4: can sometimes have a tendency to get wrapped up in
• 9:30
  Speaker 4: what we call like the travelog aspect. I went here,
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: I went there, I did this, I did that, And
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  Speaker 4: that's not so much what we're looking for. We're looking
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  Speaker 4: for the heart of a story, and it can be
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  Speaker 4: one thing that happened on your journey, or it can
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  Speaker 4: be several. It really it's putting the reader into your space.
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  Speaker 4: What did you experience?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 4: And so it really is sometimes I equate it to
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  Speaker 4: telling a story around a campfire, as it changes every time, right,
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  Speaker 4: there are different nuances you might pick up on that
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  Speaker 4: you didn't the first time. But what do you want
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  Speaker 4: to say happen to you? What do you want to
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  Speaker 4: say about your journey? And it's conveying that and also
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  Speaker 4: bringing that emotional ass to the story so that you're
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  Speaker 4: not just reading a journal entry, right, or a diary entry.
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  Speaker 2: It puts the reader there.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, what is the perfect pitch?
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  Speaker 2: The perfect pitch.
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  Speaker 4: Is one that is complete, one that has all the
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: components that we ask for and the way that we
• 10:13
  Speaker 4: ask for it. And what that does is it saves
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: a lot of back and forth between me and the author.
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  Speaker 4: It also saves time and energy and work both for
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: the author and for me. Again, as I kind of
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  Speaker 4: mentioned before, it's bringing the reader, a potential reader, into
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: your story, into your experience, paying attention to not having
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  Speaker 4: that play by play aspect.
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  Speaker 2: That's very important.
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: A lot of times people ask me, what's a region
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: that hasn't been covered, or you know, where should I go?
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  Speaker 2: And that is important. You know, there are.
• 10:39
  Speaker 4: Places that I feel like we've covered heavily, maybe too heavily,
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  Speaker 4: like Baha for example. What I always tell writers is
• 10:45
  Speaker 4: if you can tell me something different about that place,
• 10:48
  Speaker 4: if you can tell me something that no one has
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: presented before in the journal, we'll still consider it. In fact,
• 10:52
  Speaker 4: they'll probably likely take it because it's a different perspective
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: on something. It's still bringing something new. Anytime someone or
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: a piece of writing something new, I don't care what
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: it's about.
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  Speaker 2: I feel like it's valid.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really good point. And when we're in
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: editorial meetings, you know, something little like a photolink not working,
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: like if we can't get access to the photos, then
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: it's hard to know whether it's going to be it's
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: going to fly or not, you know. And those are
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: things that I still do by accident, by the way.
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  Speaker 4: Well, and the thing to remember too is the photography
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: is just as important as the writing. And that's what
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: breaks my heart is if I have a fantastic piece
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: of writing, and this happens more often than you might think,
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: that there aren't the photos to support it, and then
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: I can't do anything with it. And I understand, you know,
• 11:32
  Speaker 4: poto photography is not necessarily my strong point either, so
• 11:35
  Speaker 4: sometimes writers have to really work on getting their photos
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: up to where they need to be, or maybe they
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: end up working with other people to get the photos
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: that they need. But people don't always understand that. You know,
• 11:43
  Speaker 4: they'll send me a fantastic story and it is a
• 11:45
  Speaker 4: fantastic story, but without the photography element, we can't do
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  Speaker 4: anything with it.
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: What are some of the most memorabile pieces that you've
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: read over the years.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: I have to say, because historical fiction is one of
• 11:57
  Speaker 4: my favorite genres in history in general, I do like
• 12:00
  Speaker 4: all of your historical pieces that you write, Ashley all Right, yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And then it's funny too because when I think of stories,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: I'm also thinking of ones that are coming up, sometimes distinguished,
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: so I need to be careful. I don't give any
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: anything anything away top secret.
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: You know.
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  Speaker 4: I'm not one that's big on favorites, and honestly, I
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: look at every issue as an independent thing. I don't
• 12:20
  Speaker 4: have favorites, and I mean that sincerely. So it's like
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: any piece again that brings something new, I'm gonna I
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: like and I enjoy. I will say sometimes the more
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: technical pieces, I know people really love them and they're
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: important for the journal. It's a different type of reading.
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: You got it. You get into it, especially if you're
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: working on it right, Like a lot of it is
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: what can you do for your build? Or you know,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: we've had some amazing tests like the fridge freezer tests lately,
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: and it's all good. And I can honestly tell you
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: that I don't have favorites.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: I know what you mean though about it's so cool
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: that the journal has so many different contributing writers because
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: some people really excel at the technical have a really
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: technical focus which is really important, or I like engineering
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: background or an ability to do a lot of math
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: and make graphs. But then there's also the other side
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: of like the creative storytelling part or a gear review,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: where you have to be really honest and aware and
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: the time and to understand how the product works and
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: what it's supposed to do.
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: It's cool, yeah, I can say, you know, to readers.
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: Some of the things that I think have been really
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: valuable recently would be the photography articles that we've been
• 13:19
  Speaker 4: running by Lisa Morris, just because I feel like it
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: presents huge advantage to people that want to learn basic
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: photography skills. So I'm happy to be able to present
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: that in the magazine and we can enjoy the beautiful
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: photos of Jason Stafford.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: All right, way yeah right.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: And then one that wasn't so much overland heavy that
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: I thought was an amazing story was a last of
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: the Iigu or the Ego by and Antonia pulling broke Kent,
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: which was just such a complete immersion in that culture
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: and just her you know, going solo on her own.
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, she did of a guide, you know, but
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: still she was out there on her own, just on
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: the motorbikes, and what they encountered was just fantastic and amazing.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: And it really brought home to me, at least my
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: definition of travel, which is getting completely out there, immersing
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: one hundred percent in local culture and going where no
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: one has gone before.
• 14:04
  Speaker 2: Du dum.
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: And you have some travel experience under your belt too,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: What are some of your most special travel experiences memories.
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: Well, again, I don't like to play favorites. I've traveled
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: blat in America pretty heavily, just because that was one
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: of my areas of study. I would say more than
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: a favoritist. Perhaps one that was important was my first trip,
• 14:23
  Speaker 4: which was I was around eighteen years old and I
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: planned a trip to Police and that was my first
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: trip out of the country. It was also the first
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: time I'd seen the ocean. Most of my travels as
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: a kid was you know, we'd go see our relatives,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: which was also important and you know, instilled this sense
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: of belonging and that I really appreciated and loved. But
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: we didn't do a lot of vacation or destinations. We
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: did tons of road tripping, right, and I did tons
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: of camping as a teenager. But this was my first
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: out of country experience. It was still a lot of
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: first and it was just being somewhere completely unknown, and
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: I'll always remember it.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: I remember we were going to go to t' call.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: Everybody goes to call, right if you're in that region,
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: But it was rainy season because it was cheaper, and
• 14:59
  Speaker 4: so the road completely washed away. And so what I
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: remember instead of going to call is being in this
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: little hut on a beach, which is where I was
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: staying in a hurricane, and I would open the door
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: from time to time. I was right on the ocean,
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: and so all of the palm trees were bent all
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: the way down to the beach level, right wow. And
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: then I'd shut the door, and then I'd checked like
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: a couple hours later, and all the palm trees were
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: still done. So it was like we just we hung
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: out in this hut for a day or two until
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: the hurricane went away, and then just everything else. It
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: was like the food and you know, finding the guide
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: to take us to the you know, Lamani, the ruins
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: in the middle of nowhere, and snorkeling for the first
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: time and seeing shark for the first time, and it
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: was just a lot of first and so will always
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: stick with me. But what I realized then, if I
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: didn't know it already is. I love planning and so
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: planning trips and you know, just the way to make
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: it work. So I felt like it was important. And
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: then a recent trip that I really enjoyed was I
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: took my son, who was eight at the time, a
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: few years ago to London and that was really fun
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: because it was experiencing everything through the eyes of a child,
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: and I really loved that. And we just ran around
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: like I was a kid too, you know. We were
• 15:58
  Speaker 4: just running all over the place and just hitting as
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: many cultural things as we could, museums and just hopping
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: on the train and going out to Castle's and it
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: was really really fun. So I enjoyed that as well.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: How has traveling changed for you since you've had your son.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: It sounds like you've been able to see travel through
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: his eyes, But are there any other do you do
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: different trips or has it changed.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: He's a traveler, and if circumstances had been different in
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: the last few years, we would have been globe trotting
• 16:23
  Speaker 4: all over the place, you know, as it has been.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: We go to Mexico pretty often. We're fortunate to be
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: close to it. It's only about five hours away, and
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: so we're often in Mexico. And also just we do
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: a lot of cities. We'll go check out cities just
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: because again we live in a small town and I
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: feel like that's an important aspect introduced to him.
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: But we just have fun no matter where we go.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: How old is he just turned twelve? What does he
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: love most about traveling?
• 16:44
  Speaker 4: Just again something new, experiencing something new, something that he
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: hasn't before. And we just did a quick little trip
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: this last weekend. And whether it's a restaurant or a neighborhood,
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: what's what we like to do is just find different
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: neighborhoods to stay in and then we completely immerse ourselves
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: in them, whatever it has to offer.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: We didn't just for fun. It doesn't matter.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: It's just doing something that's out of your element, out
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: of your norm.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: What inspires you about.
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: Travel again, just the new experiences. And that's why you know,
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: if someone were to say, do you have a favorite trip?
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: I would say no, because my favorite trip is the
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: one that I'm on because of what I'm experiencing and
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: because of what I'm doing. And it's funny I was
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: saying about it this morning. I wasn't sure what we
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: were going to talk about but you know, I read
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: so much.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I love reading.
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: And what I've noticed though, is when I do have
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: time off, all the books stay at home. Unless I'm
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: on a plane, I'll read then. But the difference is
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: is I'm out there living instead of you know, reading
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: my books and finding out what I can do or
• 17:35
  Speaker 4: you know, planning something. It's just they all workstops, reading stops,
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: life starts.
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I love that I can really relate to that. I
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: feel like, if you're not in that travel period, you're
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: like reading about other people traveling and getting ideas and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: thinking of new places that you've never even thought of,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: that can be really inspiring. What's your favorite book? But
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: you don't have favorites, so that's probably the work.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: I don't have favorite, So my favorite is whichever one
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: i'm reading, because I'll tell you if I don't like
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: a book, I stop reading it within a couple of pages.
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: And I found that even when I make that kind
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: of assessment and I pick it up, if you know
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: a few days later, it never I make that decision
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: and it never improves. And so right now I'm reading
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: a book called Cloud Cuckoo Land, which I wouldn't say
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: that I love love love, but it's interesting enough for
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: me to keep reading. It's not my favorite, but it's
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: a good book, and then it's interesting too, Like there
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: are books that I've introduced to my son that I
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: thought might be favorites, but I've come to realize this too.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: Like you know, whenever you're reading a book, part of
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: what makes you like it is probably the situation that
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: you're in at the time, or what your life experience
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: is at the time. And so I'm reading The Night
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: Circus to him right now, which I loved when I
• 18:38
  Speaker 4: read it, and I don't love it right now, you know,
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: Like there are certain genres that I love. I love magic,
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: I love historical fiction in particular, And no, no favorites,
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: I would say. I do remember when my son's first book,
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: and that is probably if I had to say a favorite,
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: that is what it would be. I think it was
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: Carrot Seed or one of those kids books, right, But
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: I remember he was less than two and he was
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: reading it and he was excited because you could do
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: it and I can still hear his voice, and that
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: was exciting to me, you know, was just seeing him
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: enjoy reading as much as I do, and just I
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: mean reading opens your life.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: Absolutely in the historical fiction genre, are there any books
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: you can think of that aren't your favorite but maybe
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: they like hooked you in right away and you didn't.
• 19:15
  Speaker 4: Kind of So that's funny because the way my brain works,
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: I feel like my brain is kind of full. So
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: I don't hold onto things like yeah, titles right sure,
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: but I can tell you like there was one on
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: Catherine the Great that I read that I thought was fantastic.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I think the other thing too, is that books are
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: so different. I also have a hard time figuring out,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: like what is my favorite book, because I just I
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: don't have one. But I think you take little pieces
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: of each one with you.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Always, things that you do pick up on, you know,
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: that resonate with you or that are important to you.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: So again, I don't care, Like this book that I'm
• 19:44
  Speaker 4: reading right now, I don't love, but there are things
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: that I appreciate it. You know, it's it's taking, it's complex,
• 19:49
  Speaker 4: it's taking all these different characters and stories and interweaving
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: them together. And there's a little bit of it's not
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: really history, you know, it's like Constantinople but not really.
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: But it's like you still have these little elements or
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: kernels of truth. Actually, you know, and I love that,
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: so again I agree with you. You can always take
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: something from a book.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can learn so much about writing by reading.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: Yes, And that's often when I make that assessment, in
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: those first couple of pages of when I'm going to
• 20:15
  Speaker 4: keep reading a book or not.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: That is what's happening.
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: So, for example, if I see it start out, you know,
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: two or three pages and it's just it's just words, words, words, words, right,
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: and it's not there's no hook, there's no pulling me in.
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: There's maybe a lot of descriptions, but without anything concrete
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: behind them.
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: I'll stop.
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's something about a good book. You can't necessarily
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: put your finger on it, but you must have a
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: really long good reads list.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: No list, no list on the reads.
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: Well, and it's funny too, because you know, what I
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: would consider a bad book wouldn't be a bad book
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: to someone else. You know, it's very subjective, just like
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: every you know, everything else, and so so much of
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: it has to do with where you are in your
• 20:50
  Speaker 4: life story and what's going on, and you know what
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: makes it resonate with you.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: So I don't think no bad books no bad books.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: I like that. Are there any places that you have
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: gone back to multiple times or you keep being drawn to?
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I know you were saying that you like to experience
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: new things, but are there those places where you return
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: to time and time again.
• 21:09
  Speaker 4: Well, fortunately, where I live is so central to a
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: lot of I mean, the American Southwest. If you're going
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: to be somewhere, what a place to be, Absolutely, and
• 21:16
  Speaker 4: especially with everything that's happened in the last couple of years.
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: I lived in New Mexico for a while years ago,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: and I revisited New Mexico pretty heavily the last couple
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: of years, and I will always love that state. I
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: joke that when you cross the border from Arizona to
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: New Mexico, the sky changes. It truly is the land
• 21:30
  Speaker 4: of enchantment. And I just feel like everywhere I look,
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: you know, there are things to do. You know, you
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: just get in your vehicle. You could drive in any
• 21:36
  Speaker 4: direction and find several beautiful, glorious things to do in
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: New Mexico. And you know, sometimes it's going to the
• 21:43
  Speaker 4: little shrine like Chimayo, or driving to Taos, or it
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter. I mean, the camping's great, it's just it's
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: all wonderful. And then Mexico brought up in Lasco, what
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: people call Rocky Point is one of my favorite places.
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: I think it's one of that part of the Sea
• 21:56
  Speaker 4: of Cortez, I think is one of the most beautiful
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: oceans in the world, and it's so close to me
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: and I will I will always appreciate it. So we
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: try to go at least a couple times a year.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: Just run a beach house, stay on the beach, relax,
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: do no reading, no.
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: Rating, Yeah, no rating.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: What is on your list next? Like what is if
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: you could travel anywhere right now? Where would you go?
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: Almost anywhere?
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, at this point.
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: And it's funny, you know, as the world is opening
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: up and we've kind of learned different ways to travel
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: in different ways to plan, and different ways to make
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: things happen. Which it's part of being human. Our surroundings
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: are always changing, and that's just it, you know, it's
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: I also recognize what's here in my own backyard as well,
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: and so I really just value any experience, whether near
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: or far, that introduces something new to me.
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: This content is brought to you by Overland Journal, our
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: premium quality print publication. The magazine was founded in two
• 22:48
  Speaker 3: thousand and six with the goal of providing independent equipment
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: and vehicle reviews, along with the most stunning adventures and photography.
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: We care deeply about the countries and cultures we visit
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: and share our experiences freely with our readers. We also
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: have zero averatorial policy and do not accept any advertiser
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: compensation for our reviews. By subscribing to Overland Journal, you're
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  Speaker 3: helping to support our employee owned and veteran owned publication.
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: Your support also provides resources and funding for content like
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• 23:30
  Speaker 3: subscribe directly on our website at Overland Journal dot com.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: How has your role at Overland Journal changed you? What
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: is the most profound thing that you've learned from your
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: time here.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: That's an interesting question.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: I've always worked remotely, so sometimes I feel not apart
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: from the team, But I mean a lot of us
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: work remotely. I mean, Ashley, you're only here for a week, right, Matt,
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: you know, he comes and goes as well. We've got
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: a couple core staff members that are here most of
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: the time. I guess maybe learning to work with people
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: from a distance. I feel like that was maybe something
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: new and valuable, and it didn't just start with the
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: pandemic was before, So it's a different way of working together,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: but again has its own strength that it brings to
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: the organization. So I feel like that was valuable.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I think communication is key, and any meetings that
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: we have on a regular basis seem to be really helpful.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And also just seeing people's faces I think is really
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: good consistently when you're all over the US and Canada
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: and all over the place.
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know, I know I'm guilty of relying
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: on email too much. Perhaps I think an in person
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: conversation is better. I don't always have the time to
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: do so, but that's something that I'm trying to change,
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: is having more in person conversations. Unnecessarily zoom meetings, but
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: at least a phone call, just to have that personal connection,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: because things also get lost in translation and email whoever
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: you're communicating with, probably on both sides. So I like
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: the in person connection too. And I think as the
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: world changes and as we all began zooming, and I
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: think it's important to hold on to those personal connections
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: whenever we can take them.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah, working from home, I haven't been working as
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: from home as long as you but it definitely sometimes
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: feels like you're in your own little world.
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: Well, and it's good because you can focus right if
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: you have the right personality, it works quite well because
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: you know you don't have things going on around you
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: interrupting you. You can just strictly and I feel like
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: I can work at super speed, So I feel like
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: maybe I get more work done that way. It's just
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: good and bad. But yeah, it's just it's a different way.
• 25:28
  Speaker 4: It's a different way of working, and so again, just
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: maintaining those human connections when possible.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Is there anything else that you've learned maybe about the
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: editorial process along the way. I feel like I learn
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: a lot about people when I read their writing. It's
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: almost a game to a certain extent, Like when I'm
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: copy editing, it's what would this person say?
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Or you know, what would they do?
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: Or because again you know I'm not working with them,
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: they're not sitting right next to me. I do feel
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: like I learn a lot about people, and that is
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: kind of fun. You know, with copy editing, with all
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: the fact checking, you're learning something every day, So whether
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: it's checking a date or a place, or you know
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: something that's happened in history, or a name, or it
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: doesn't matter. And so often I'll go down little rabbit
• 26:04
  Speaker 4: holes because I need to. But also I find that
• 26:06
  Speaker 4: I find that fun, just you know, getting down to
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: like the finite details of things.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: So yes, yes, yeah, the fact checking is interesting, like
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: you learned so much from it. I also do that.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: I go down a wormhole and then I'm like, Okay,
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: you got to get back to task here. But I
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: think what is so great about well, I want to
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: speak for you, but part of what's great about what
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I do is learning all the time, whether it's copy
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: editing or whether it's learning about a place or somebody's
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: experience in a place. It feels like you're always learning,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: which I think is important.
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: Well, and then to a certain extent, it's bringing my
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: experience of what I've just found out into the article too.
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: So if I find something is particularly interesting, I want
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: to share it with the reader as well, So it's
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: bringing it into the article. I mean, I always run
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: things by authors to make sure the changes that I
• 26:48
  Speaker 4: do are fine with them. But it's an opportunity. It's
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: an opportunity to share knowledge.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: In your own pieces that you've written for Expedition Ortal
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: or Overland Journal. Have you had any that have been
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: particularly powerful or interesting or types that you'd like to
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: do in the future.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: I enjoyed researching the Aloha Wonderwell piece in particular. It
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: was funny is there were things that came up that
• 27:08
  Speaker 4: I couldn't speak about in the article, things that were
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: sort of like off limits, which made it challenging. And
• 27:13
  Speaker 4: that was just kind of the way that the article
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: was set up. There's sort of a mystery involved, right,
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: and there are definitely things that the family wanted to
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: keep private, and you know that sort of thing. So
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: it was kind of like diving into the mystery and
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: making my own conclusions but not having the satisfaction and
• 27:26
  Speaker 4: making them known, but still interesting. Nonetheless, you know what
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: I was able to present, and she was a fascinating person,
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: so I found that particularly fun.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: I guess you had to contact her family regarding photos
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: or history or her story. How do you approach somebody
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: like that? Do you just fire off an email or
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: what is your process when you're doing like research for
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: those kind of historical pieces.
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: You know, trying to remember how that one came about?
• 27:50
  Speaker 4: And I feel like maybe the family reached out to us. Actually,
• 27:53
  Speaker 4: as I'm thinking about it, oh wow, So that one was.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: A little bit easier.
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: But again it was kind of presenting this story actual manner,
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: you know, but also in a way that least everyone.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: You mentioned the campfire story as a way to bring
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: readers in and be interested in what you have to say.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: What are some really specific things that go into a
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: campfire story that make a piece great.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: I guess why I make that campfire reference is it's
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: more conversational the telling of a story versus the writing
• 28:21
  Speaker 4: of the story, which and sometimes they are one and
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: the same. There's a method to it, right, So that's
• 28:25
  Speaker 4: how you eliminate the play by play.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I did this, I did.
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: That again, brings the reader more into your experience. And
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: so how do you tell your story? You focus on
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: what's important to you. Focus on what's important, I think,
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: to the region that you are, to the people that
• 28:37
  Speaker 4: you are. I mean, our voice has power, and I
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: feel like whenever we go somewhere, I mean, we talk
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: about this in the magazine pretty frequently. You need to
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: be responsible, You need to be a steward, You need
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: to be recognizing that you are a visitor in a place,
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: it's not just about your experience in a way, it's
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: about the experience that you're bringing, both to the people
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: around you while you're visiting and the cultures, but also
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: to the reader. So I feel like it's an opportunity
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: to present things and to do things in a way
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: that can actually facilitate change. How do we experience something,
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: what do we bring to that experience? I think those
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: are both two very important components mm hmm.
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: And also feeling something like when you're reading something as
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: a reader or an editor, it's important too. I think
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: you want to feel something when you're reading well right,
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: especially if.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: You're not there right.
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, maybe it's an interaction that you had
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: with a person, you know, maybe it's you were on
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: a hillside on your own and you had some sort
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: of you don't have to tell me what the epiphany is,
• 29:34
  Speaker 4: but there's there's a quality of emotion, there's a way
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: that you feel. And in our photo essays, for example,
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: that's something that isn't heavy on text, like we have
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: very descriptive captions, but that's what we always say, bring
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: people into this moment, you know, the moment when this
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: photograph was taking place, what were you feeling, what was
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: going on?
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And it's like that's what you have to look at.
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: And it's also the human connection I think too, in
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: terms of if you're reading about somebody's experience and they're
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: sharing what they're going through, most of the time you
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: can relate or empathize. Writing really brings that connection with others.
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean we're all human, so we do have
• 30:06
  Speaker 4: similarities across the board, and think it's important to recognize that.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: And also, I mean I don't think Overlanders in general
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: do this, but it's kind of just taking that tourist
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: aspect out again more immersing yourself in a culture. And
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: you know this from just going to Saudi Arabia, So
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: how you dressed. It wasn't necessarily something that you needed
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: to do, but you respected the culture that you were
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: in and you also said it made it more comfortable
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: for you as well. Right, Absolutely, it's little things like that.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: I feel like little things we do, it doesn't matter
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: traveling or whatever. I feel like little things make a
• 30:35
  Speaker 4: big difference in how we interact with each other, makes
• 30:37
  Speaker 4: a big difference. And again, it's not just experiencing something,
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: it's being the positive experience to someone else as well.
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: I think that community aspect is important. Whether you're in
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: Saudi Arabia or you're at home, it makes a difference.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: Part of the point is to experience the unfamiliar, right,
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: So while the unfamiliar may seem very unfamiliar and maybe
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: not something that you're completely hundred percent behind.
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: It's part of where you are. So wherever you are,
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: you act accordingly.
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: Forliant Journal does some things regarding community here and we
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: have a lot of gear that piles up. Can you
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: speak to what happens to that gear?
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: It's funny, So we always try and walk the walk right.
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: I was actually one of our team members, Paula Burr,
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: who was like, what's this, you know, recycling aspect and
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: what are we really doing with that? And you know,
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: kind of not as it necessarily falls in to leave
• 31:23
  Speaker 4: no trace, but what are we doing on our end
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: to kind of maintain some of these ideals that were
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: proponents of And she brought up the fact that we
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: had a lot of gear sitting around and wasn't even.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Just gear allow us all over it. She was like,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: what are we doing with our paper products?
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: You know, what are we doing with you know, so
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: it was just making sure that again we were walking
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: the walk. But she and I kind of got together.
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: She had a friend that works at a local high school. Incidentally,
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: they needed some camping gear and so it was kind
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: of vetted a few organizations locally to decide where was
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: the best home for our gear. The other one that
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: we chose was another organization called CCJ, which helps the
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: homeless population in our area. Again, vetted them a little
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: bit just to find out what goes where in terms
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: of money and profits. It's a difference where look at
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: a rooftop tent. You know, a rooftop tent could actually
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: be someone's home if it ends up in the right place.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: It's surprising what one conversation or one action can do.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: And I think sometimes we feel when there are big
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: things going on in the world, it feels like it's hopeless.
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: But if you can even make like that one little
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: change or step, it actually feels pretty powerful. How did
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: you meet Scott Brady? You said that you kind of
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: came into OJ through Stephanie and Andre, which, well, yeah,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: so what's.
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: Funny is, like I said, I can even remember I
• 32:33
  Speaker 4: remember walking in the door of the office and where
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: Andre was sitting and where Stephanie was sitting, and Stephanie
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: at the time did a lot of management of the organization.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: But honestly, even after I met them that first time,
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: most of my in person connection would have been with
• 32:45
  Speaker 4: Chris Collard, right, So I didn't see Scott a lot,
• 32:47
  Speaker 4: and I can't I honestly can't tell you when the
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: first time was then I met him. He was always
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: kind of flitting around. He travels a lot now, it
• 32:53
  Speaker 4: was even more so back then. While I don't have
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: a particular meeting that I can remember, I can tell
• 32:58
  Speaker 4: you what I appreciate about him as I've come to
• 33:01
  Speaker 4: know him over the years, and that is that he
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: is always working on helping his team and whatever way
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: that he can when he can. Have you ever heard
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: just see even when you're speaking on the phone or
• 33:12
  Speaker 4: maybe someone can't see you, but if you're speaking with
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: a smile on your face, the difference that the conversation
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: can happen just because on the other end, no matter
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: that a person can see you or not, they still know.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: There's just like something that happens right like it's it
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: facilitates a positive conversation rather than a negative one.
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: So if I'm writing my next article and I'm smiling,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: hopefully it'll translate it right. Cool. Well, thank you so
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: much Tina for coming on the Overline Journal podcast. It's
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: been an absolute pleasure speaking with you, and I think
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: it's been really probably helpful for people to know who
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: you are more than just a name and a mast
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: head and what you look for. And there's a person
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: behind all this magazine and portal, a little like wizard
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: that's doing all the things and making things happen, moving
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: things forward. So we're really grateful for you and for
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: everything that you do.
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: The one thing that I'd like to say to any
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: aspiring writers out there is if you do want to
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: submit a pitch to us, you can go to our
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: website and you can find it quite easily, or you
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: can even just google overland Journal right for us and
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: the form will come up. And if you have any questions,
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: you can reach out to me. My door's always open.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: Sometimes it takes a couple of days, just depending on
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: where I am at with my work schedule, but you're
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: always free to ask questions. And I hope that you
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: send in your content to us because we'd love to
• 34:25
  Speaker 4: see it well.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you everybody for tuning in today. You can find
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: all that information in the show notes and we will
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: catch you next time.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: All right bye, Thanks Ashley, Bye,