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Donna Simmons | The Christian Reeve Podcast #326 · The Christian Reeve Podcast

0:00
Hello, welcome to another episode of the Christian Reef
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Podcast. Today's guest is an author, a
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public speaker and advocate for trauma survivors.
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Her name is Donna Simmons. Welcome to the show.
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How you doing? Hey there Christian, I'm doing
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well. Thank you so much for having me.
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It's a pleasure to have you. It's always an honour to have
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people on the show who, well, firstly authors do a lot of
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public speaking and stuff like that, but also when they've got
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like quite a powerful story or so you kind of have to approach
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that with, I'd say sensitivity, but also you just have to
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approach it differently. You know, I sort of always feel
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like some responsibility in that area.
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And over the years we've had the various guests who, who've had
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maybe similar stories or who are trying to advocate for certain
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things in society. And I don't know, I've always
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quite like the idea that we can like push that out there and get
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people sort of questioning things and they may be asking
1:02
themselves why these things exist.
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Which is it kind of brings me to, to my first question,
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because I've, I've heard about this in the past.
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I always kind of thought like it was a weird historic thing.
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I didn't realise that this is still going on in certain
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countries. So for those who wonder, what
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the hell are you talking about? Christian, basically, Donna
1:24
Simmons is responsible for, in part, being responsible for
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helping to change marriage laws for children.
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Just kidding. See what I'm saying?
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Child marriage laws. I remember just reading that in,
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in, in my research and going like, what?
1:44
Yeah. Child marriage laws in
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specifically in Tennessee, Indiana, and Kentucky.
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I guess my first question would be like how long have these laws
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existed for? Oh, goodness.
2:00
So, and you know, I'm talking specifically here in America
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because so many folks don't even realize that it's an issue here
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in the States, right? But what we found when we
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started researching data is that so many states up until around
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2018 didn't have any protections for children.
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So through parental consent, kids of virtually any age could
2:25
get married. Or if there was a pregnancy
2:28
involved, then a judge would end up signing off on this.
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And we hear this, and we think, well, surely judges would not be
2:37
granting marriage licenses to predators.
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But when we look at the data, specifically in the state of
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Kentucky, there is a 15 year old girl married off to a 52 year
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old man and a 13 year old girl married off to a 33 year old
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man. And these are just two of the
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extremely egregious examples. There were almost 11,000 cases
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of child marriage in Kentucky alone since the year 2000
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between 2000, 2015. And when we look state by state,
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we see that this is a pattern. So many people think when they
3:12
hear child marriage that these are instances that are happening
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in developing countries, not here in the states.
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But children are literally being legally abused by predators.
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And the predators have more protections than the kids
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because they literally get a license granted to them to
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continue abusing and exploiting that child.
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And that's what happened to me. How can this actively be
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enforced in the 21st century? Because I think that like if you
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to turn around and said this is something that was a hangover
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from, I don't know, the 19th century or something like that
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and it hungover and then like it wasn't acceptable.
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But maybe like the law was just changed later on or something
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like that. I could maybe people could get
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their heads around it. But like, as you said, it's
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actively still low in certain places and was actively
4:12
protecting people for such a long time.
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Like how is that? How how is that possible for
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that to still be occurring? Like, because I mean, it can't
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just be you and people like yourself, like calling it out
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and be like, hey, this isn't right.
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What are we doing here? Like.
4:27
Right. Well, yeah.
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And I think, but your question brings up an even deeper
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question too, right? Because why is it that as we as
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survivors are vocalizing the desperate change that's needed
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in the law, why are we getting such resistance from
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politicians? And I'll tell you that one of
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the reasons, and you know, this is just very candid and I'm
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certainly not trying to make this a political issue.
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But if you look at the people in positions of power that we have
4:58
here in the states right now and all of the accusations, some of
5:03
which have very much been substantiated of these people
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being predators and predators protecting other predators, that
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continues the cycle. It continues the issue.
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And that also very much speaks to the status of women, you
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know, the status that we have as women right now and the fact
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that our lives, you know, going to the point that we're little
5:28
girls, our lives are not as valued as, you know, people that
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fit the description of, you know, who some should think,
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think should be in those positions of authority right
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now, which is what we see play out.
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You said that you faced a lot of resistance, like how how can a
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government official justify sort of a repost to what you're
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saying? Like what?
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What's the justified response to what you to to what you're
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saying? Yeah, so I've heard various
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things. Some of the resistance that
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comes as well. The state shouldn't be involved
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in regulating parental rights. So they see this as a parental
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rights issue, meaning that parents should be able to make
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that decision on behalf of their children.
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But what I say to that is that, for one thing, the state's
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already involved when it comes to parental rights because
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there's custody battles. There's also child protective
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service cases, right, where the state has the authority to
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intervene if they detect a child is being abused.
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But why is it that when you smack a marriage license on it,
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all of a sudden it's OK for that child to continue being abused?
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Yeah. And I think another thing as
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well is that like just like the UK you, you've got an age of
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consent law and I understand that it is different in every
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state. So some states are 18, a lot of
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them are 21. Surely there's some crossover
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there. Because if it's like if you're
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saying, if, if logically you're saying and like you just take
6:58
the emotions from it and it's just the law.
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It's like, OK, we say that until the age of 18 or 21, you are not
7:07
able to give consent if you have, you know, sexual relations
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with an adult or someone even some same age as you.
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We're saying you don't, you don't have that consent yet
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because we don't legally recognise you as an adult.
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But then in the same breath, we're also saying, oh, but it's
7:27
OK if they got a marriage license because the parents said
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it was OK. I'm like, because I understand
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the oh, the parent is given the consent for the child because
7:36
they are a legal guardian. But the problem with that
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argument, and I know this is just common sense, but I just
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want to like break it down, right?
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Like surely there's like a cut off point where it's like, OK,
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well that's clearly just, hey, I call it like I said, that's just
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paedophilia, that's abuse. That's that's wrong.
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I mean, how can you justify that?
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That is an extremely valid point.
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And one of the things that I feel like I beat my head against
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the wall trying to say during my advocacy, part of that is
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because, you know, for one thing, we keep using the term
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parental consent. We use it and, you know, our
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legislative meetings, we use it when we're talking in the media.
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But I would challenge that what may be called parental consent
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is actually parental coercion because in a lot of these
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instances, the parents are basically trafficking their kids
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to these older men and in some ways are getting something out
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of it. And again, that was my specific
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experience. I know I'm not alone in that
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because through my almost 10 years now of advocacy work, I've
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talked to a ton of survivors who have experienced something
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similar or even the same as me. The other part of that, though,
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and I want to touch on for a couple of moments what you said
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about the age of consent because there's a couple considerations
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there, right? So yes, in the US, state by
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state, the age of consent is regulated.
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And in the state of Kentucky, I'm just going to fine tune on
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my home state of Kentucky right now.
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State of Kentucky is an example. The age of consent is 16, and it
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has been for several, several years.
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Back in 2018, at the same time that I was advocating to end
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child marriage through parental consent in the state of
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Kentucky, there was another bill that was going through our
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legislature that addressed the age of consent because at that
9:36
time there was no gap in the disparity of age.
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So age of 16 was considered consent period.
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It didn't matter how old the adult you know that they may
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have been involved in was right. So simultaneously with changing
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the child marriage laws, our state also changed the age of
9:55
consent to say that the age difference caps out at nine
9:59
years. Meaning that if a 16 year old
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and a 25 year old were to be in an intimate relationship, that
10:07
would be classified as legal. Whereas if a 16 and 26 year old,
10:12
that would be classified as statutory right because that 16
10:16
year old could not consent. Again, any marriage that
10:19
occurred under the age of 16 even up until that point would
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have exactly as you said, fallen into that category where it
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would have been classified as statutory rape because the child
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does not legally have the ability to consent.
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I want to segue real fast into one more point on this and that
10:36
is that I shared with you. We changed the law in 2018,
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right ending child marriage through parental consent.
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Well, I'm going to drop a little bit of a bomb right now because
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this is information that I just found out about a week ago, and
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I've been holding it close to the vest waiting for the right
10:52
time to release it. And that is that I went back to
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the Office of Vital Statistics here in Kentucky because I
10:59
wanted to see how effective were we, right?
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Prior to 2018, we were averaging like 300 cases of child marriage
11:07
in our state alone per year. When I pulled back the data from
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the time the law changed in 2018 through the end of 2024.
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So again, very recent period of time, right?
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Yeah, the numbers went down drastically, but we found that
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in some counties judges are not following the law.
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We were not able to get the legislator to to approve an age
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18, no exception. So we did the next best thing
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which was make the age floor 17. Have parental consent done away
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with has to be judges. Age disparity caps out at four
11:44
years. Tell me why we still have cases
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where judges are allowing 16 year olds to marry.
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Some of these kids are being married to people 1012 years
11:53
older than them, which again is in complete violation of the
11:56
law. And again, and that 10 to 12
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year age disparity gap to circle back to consent, those marriages
12:06
themselves, not only are they illegal, but they're also
12:10
violating the other law of statutory rape that was passed
12:15
where that age cap of nine years was made.
12:19
God, so much to unpack here. I mean, oh, yeah, firstly, yeah.
12:23
I mean, you, you said it in there like they're, they're
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breaking the law. They're violating the law.
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I mean, you're just, you're just not.
12:29
Yeah. So they should be under
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investigation for that, if nothing else.
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I. Mean, and I'll tell you one of
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the things that's so infuriating about this, and I mean hell, I
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can share with you the e-mail trails.
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I can share with you the PDF of the e-mail trails and the raw
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data that I got back and everything else.
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I have asked for that specific county data to be provided.
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All of this is subject to open records per our Open Records
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Act. I have asked for that county
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level data to be provided so that we can hold those officials
13:02
accountable. And guess what?
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They are slow walking their approval process for this, which
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legally there shouldn't be an approval process.
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They should just provide the data because it's open records.
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But I keep getting the runaround from them.
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And that to me, and I'm not trying to jump the gun and make
13:21
wild accusations, but that to me speaks to the fact that we have
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officials that would rather protect the name of people that
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are violating the laws and putting kids in harm's way than
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they would prioritize protecting kids from these offenders.
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And this is one of the cores that's wrong in America right
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now. Yeah, I mean, I think it goes
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back to to to the the sort of the wider point of like, why
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wouldn't you want to protect children?
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You know what I mean? Like it's as simple as that
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might seem as a point. I mean, like it's a hot button
14:03
topic here in the UK because the age of consent here in in the UK
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is 16. And I think I'm, I think most
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people would agree with me that it's, it's, it's weird.
14:14
It's, I'm sorry, but like, if you're like, like my age, they,
14:18
and you're dating a 16 year old, I mean, come on, man.
14:20
They're a kid. And even even like people that
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are 18/19/20 and they're having relationships with like people
14:27
in their 30s forties. Like people will try and justify
14:29
it. But like at the end of the day,
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you're in completely different points in your life and like
14:35
you're, the state says you're in it.
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You're an adult at 18, right? I don't know about you, but
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like, I feel like you don't really start feeling like a
14:45
fully functioning adult until like maybe you're early to mid
14:49
20s maybe. I mean, I guess that's, it's
14:52
dependent on a lot of things. Some people mature early, get
14:55
that. But like when you weigh it all
14:58
up and then you look at dating and stuff like that, it's, it's
15:03
a tricky 1, but I think we're in that area.
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It's pretty straightforward. Like it's like, this is just
15:12
wrong. You know, I've always said that
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the age of consent here should be like 18 or 21 or something
15:19
because a lot of people try and justify that.
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And I don't know, I mean, that the, what is it they call it
15:24
the, the power dynamic is at play in situations like that.
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Obviously that's massively the case in what we're talking about
15:32
with with child marriage laws because not only is that in
15:37
play, but also like there's the parental ownership.
15:41
It's almost ownership in a way. It's, it's like it feels very
15:45
archaic and like another person being responsible for your
15:52
relationship. In my mind, it feels wrong.
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I don't feel like there should be involvement from outside,
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even if it is close family. It's, I don't know.
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I've heard people try and justify it before because I know
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like in other countries they have things like arranged
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marriages and stuff, but I don't know.
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A child is a child however you want to swing it.
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You know what I mean? Exactly.
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A child is a child. And you know, at the end of the
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day, when you look at the intersectionality between child
16:21
marriage, child abuse, right? Because just because you put a
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marriage license on it doesn't mean that it has any less of an
16:28
impact to the child, right? So, you know, when we look at
16:33
that, we look at statistically what happens when children are
16:37
abused. You know, I'm not sure if you're
16:39
familiar with the Adverse childhood experiences study that
16:42
Kaiser Permanente put out a few years ago.
16:44
But they looked at what happens when a child is in a chronically
16:49
abusive or neglectful situation. And they were able to build out
16:54
this predictive model of what health conditions they're going
16:57
to run into later on in their life due to that early life
16:59
chronic stress and, you know, things like heart disease and
17:03
diabetes and even certain forms of cancer.
17:06
And that's not even taking into account the mental health
17:10
components of it, you know, and the fact that, you know, complex
17:13
post traumatic stress disorder, anxiety disorders, bipolar
17:17
disorder, there's so many things that are linked to those early
17:21
childhood abuses. Yeah.
17:23
I wanted to ask you about this because I've never heard of
17:27
complex PTSD. Could you outline just what that
17:30
is for our listeners and maybe just kind of compared to regular
17:33
PTSD, if that's OK? Sure.
17:36
Yeah, that's a great question. So complex PTSD occurs when you
17:43
have experienced chronic abuse, chronic stresses.
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So it's different from post traumatic stress disorder in the
17:51
sense that PTSD is typically diagnosed when there's been some
17:54
type of Shock Trauma involved. So it may be a singular incident
17:59
or a repetitive incident that happens over a short period of
18:02
time. So we see that a lot with
18:04
veterans that have served in war and maybe they've been on the
18:06
battleground for several months or, you know, a year or what
18:09
have you. Whereas complex PTSD tends to
18:13
begin during early childhood development and is a chronic
18:17
state that happens over several years where your body is
18:21
consistently in a fight or flight response.
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OK. And and this is too much to what
18:29
you're saying before is, is particularly like a lot of kids
18:34
that have been in these situations will likely have one
18:37
or the other. Is that is that a fair
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assessment? Yes, absolutely.
18:41
Absolutely. I will say that complex PTSD
18:44
tends to be more what's called relational trauma based as well,
18:49
which means that you have difficulty navigating
18:52
relationships. You cannot feel secure in
18:54
relationships, even if later on in your life you find a secure
18:58
partner that does provide stability and it's really
19:01
difficult to trust. And you have what's called
19:04
emotional flashbacks. So it could be someone's tone
19:08
comes across as harsh. Like, you know, I use the
19:10
example of my husband and I being in a grocery store a
19:15
couple of years back, and we were going back and forth about
19:18
cheesecake, and I was having a hard time picking out the
19:21
cheesecake. And, you know, he had a
19:24
playfully but yet seemingly harsh tone with me of just pick
19:28
the damn cheesecake, you know, and the tone I translated to be
19:34
really like harmful. Like my body just went into this
19:37
high stress mode where my heart started racing and everything
19:40
was telling me, like everything with them was telling me,
19:43
prepare for what's next, right? That is an emotional flashback.
19:47
That is something that is very indicative of complex BTSD.
19:52
And that's just one example. How can people like, for
19:55
example, your husband navigate things like that?
19:57
Because if someone is experiencing deep trauma and you
20:02
know, I know that modern society causes things like triggers and
20:04
stuff, how can you navigate that?
20:08
Because obviously not everyone is going to be psychology
20:11
excerpt and nobody understand necessarily.
20:13
Like I can picture that scenario that you've just laid out and
20:17
it's like, I'm sure your husband was like, Oh well, yeah, didn't
20:22
mean that. What can I do?
20:25
Right? It's like how, how can people?
20:28
Help. What's What's like a good way of
20:29
approaching these things? Yeah, that's such a great
20:32
question too. And I'll tell you, my husband
20:34
and I actually launched a podcast called The Last
20:37
Generation and Transforming Trauma into Purpose, and it
20:40
focuses on repairing yourself in order to be able to be in a
20:46
reparative relationship as well. And so we talked about exactly
20:50
what you just asked. And I think it's really
20:52
important for partners of complex PTSD survivors to be
20:57
able to who recognize what's happening and lean in from a
21:01
place of curiosity instead of judgement.
21:04
So that was short lived between us because he was able to be
21:08
like, oh, I see what's happening because he knows me, right?
21:11
Like we've been working on this for a while now.
21:14
And so when he saw that I go into this panic state, he's able
21:20
to just, hey, you know what, you're safe.
21:23
I love you. You're safe.
21:25
We can get whatever cheesecake, you know, like turning it into
21:28
something comedic or what have you, instead of having this
21:32
harsh approach like, well, what's wrong with you?
21:35
I found it very interesting in your answer though that you use
21:37
the word judgement. Have you faced a lot of
21:40
judgement in your life for having PTSD and other tail fish?
21:46
Really. Oh, absolutely.
21:48
Oh yeah, there is still such a stigma around any type of mental
21:53
health concern. Well, sure, yeah, I I get that.
21:56
I see that in society. But like, this is not like, OK,
22:02
I'm just speaking tight to like the ignorance of society, right.
22:04
But if, if someone says I'm depressed or something like
22:07
that, people are like like people that don't have a lot of
22:10
empathy or don't want to understand will just be like,
22:13
cheer up, whatever. Do you know, but what PTSD is
22:16
like, often people that have been to war have that right?
22:21
That's the first thing you tend to think of.
22:23
Like that's, I don't know that you could really ever turn
22:26
around and be with someone and be like, get over it.
22:29
Like what? Like we'll be judged for it.
22:31
I don't know. I mean, it's just interesting.
22:34
Yeah, I think a lot of times people, especially when they
22:37
don't know the narrative that has gone into creating and the
22:42
complex PTSDA, lot of times people just see what's on the
22:44
surface. So they see the panicky reaction
22:47
or, you know, that a person just shuts down and, you know, starts
22:51
crying uncontrollably or whatever.
22:53
And they build their own narrative about that person
22:56
instead of, you know, asking questions or, you know, showing
23:00
some compassion without understanding first.
23:04
I can think of so many people like that.
23:07
Yeah. So you wrote a book, you're
23:12
doing public speaking, you're doing podcasts.
23:15
You're talking about this frequently and you're talking
23:18
about your own experiences. How do you protect yourself
23:23
from, like, your own trauma when discussing it and.
23:27
And, and, and sharing it with other people because I mean, I
23:32
don't know, I, I would imagine support things like therapy,
23:36
stuff like that have helped over the years.
23:38
But like, I don't know. Well, when I think about my own
23:41
traumatic experiences, you know, sometimes if you talk about it
23:45
for long enough, you start visualizing it.
23:47
It's, I mean, it doesn't, it won't, you know, you're not, you
23:52
start, I don't know, in my experience, you start to feel it
23:54
a little bit. It's almost like you're there
23:56
again. It's not the same, but it's,
23:58
there's a risk there of like, I don't know, almost like falling
24:03
into it a little bit too much. Like how do you protect
24:05
yourself? That is such a good question
24:08
too. And you're right.
24:09
I mean, so much of my life revolves around healing and
24:14
sharing that recovery with others as well.
24:17
And so in part, I really do draw a lot of strength from being in
24:21
a community with survivors and being able to see the progress
24:24
that they're able to make in their lives through, you know,
24:27
support groups or what have you. That is empowering to me as well
24:31
as to them. But the other side of that is
24:34
I'm really big on self-care. I have three dogs.
24:38
I have two cats. I'm sure you probably saw one of
24:41
them running through like a little banshee a second ago.
24:45
She's my little wild child kitten.
24:47
But I love my animals. You know, that is a place where
24:51
I can just fully lean into comfort.
24:53
And then I've also very much always felt really drawn to
24:56
nature. So, you know, I work in my
24:59
garden a ton. I go for walks a ton.
25:02
You know, I love to hike or to bike or what have you.
25:05
And so just being being able to prioritize me and what I need in
25:10
the moment and not feel selfish over that, you know, especially
25:13
as a mom, because as parents, a lot of times we very much are
25:18
made to feel guilty or selfish if we express the need to care
25:22
for ourselves. But you know, just as that
25:24
cliche saying is you have to put on your mask first on the
25:29
airplane, right? They tell you put on your mask
25:31
1st. And there's a reason for that.
25:34
Being that your mother, is there anything from your experiences?
25:42
Because obviously the key point of being a parent is to teach
25:46
your kids and also sort of like try and protect them from from
25:49
things in life or, or at least do your best to kind of shield
25:54
them from things for as long as possible.
25:57
Not like hide the world, but like, you know, explain to them
26:02
why things are a certain way and, and try to install and then
26:08
this idea of the world they're going to be entering and how to
26:11
prepare for it and stuff like that.
26:14
You know, the nature of your experiences, what you, what
26:16
you're, what you've dealt with, what you do on a daily basis to
26:18
sort of advocate for things. Has that sort of affected the
26:23
way you parent your kids in any way?
26:25
Is that like, could you talk to that for a little bit?
26:30
Absolutely. So I saw a quote the other day
26:33
which resonated very much, and that is that the overprotective
26:37
mother was the underprotected daughter.
26:40
And I think that's true in so many ways.
26:44
And, you know, my daughter just turned 18 back in June.
26:48
And so here in, you know, a very short period of time, she's
26:52
going to be going off to college.
26:53
She's going 1400 miles away and so I have spent a lot of time
26:58
reflecting over how I have parented her.
27:01
I'm extremely proud of the person that she has become.
27:06
I never took the approach of encouraging silence in anything
27:11
or really shielding her from knowing about the atrocities in
27:16
the world. Now, of course we would keep
27:18
those conversations as they were age appropriate.
27:21
You know, I didn't just, like, dump a ton of darkness on her
27:24
when she was young, of course, but as she would start asking
27:28
questions, we would have full conversations about it.
27:30
It wouldn't just be these topical responses.
27:33
You know, we would talk about the history of things.
27:35
I remember when she was 8 years old, she chose to do her Women's
27:39
History Month project on Malala because that was something that
27:43
mattered so much to her, that women's education was being
27:47
stripped away. And that, you know, that was
27:49
something that she saw as something that was atrocious
27:53
that she wanted everyone to know about.
27:57
The other side of it, too, is for me making sure that she knew
28:02
she could come to me about anything.
28:03
There was never a topic that was going to be too taboo.
28:07
And if she made a mistake, she could tell me as well.
28:11
And I was going to sit with her and process it and not judge her
28:15
for it. There wasn't, you know, I don't
28:17
think that she really had to grow up feeling like she
28:22
constantly had to be afraid of getting in trouble.
28:24
We, there could be a hesitancy to have difficult conversations,
28:28
right? Because some stuff's just really
28:31
uncomfortable. But to be able to be that safe
28:34
person for her and her to grow up knowing that regardless of,
28:39
you know, what she had in her mind, what was happening in her
28:42
friend's circle, you know, what things she may have gotten
28:46
herself into as a teenager, what have you.
28:48
And that she could come to me and share that and that I would
28:52
hold space for her. That it was basically me
28:57
becoming the person that I needed when I was a child.
29:01
And that to me is what brought everything full circle.
29:06
And that's not to say, oh, I am healed like completely at holy
29:10
because I, I very much see healing as being, you know,
29:14
something that is a journey. It's not linear, right?
29:17
It's very much a journey. It ebbs and flows, but that to
29:21
me was reaching a new depth of healing that I never thought
29:26
possible. And that's one of the reasons I
29:27
felt so compelled to write my book.
29:30
To be able to share those experiences with others and and
29:33
let people know they don't have to carry shame.
29:36
The shame that was cast upon them by the people that harm
29:38
them is not theirs to carry. That shame belongs on the
29:42
predator. When you experience those lows,
29:46
what process do you go through to kind of get back to where you
29:51
need to be? For one thing, honoring it, you
29:55
know, for one thing, instead of sitting there thinking what's
29:58
wrong with me for feeling this way to recognize that it's
30:04
impart my inner child that's needing some attention.
30:07
I Richard Sports talks about the internal family system.
30:11
I'm not sure if you're familiar with his work or not, but he
30:15
talks about how we have all these different characters
30:19
inside of us, right? And so sometimes if our inner
30:24
child gets triggered, they may, you know, react in such a way
30:28
that is very weeping. If our adolescent gets
30:33
triggered, maybe it acts out in such a way that's really angry
30:36
or frustrated. And it's not from a dissociative
30:40
lens. It's from a recognizing the
30:43
different parts within us that, you know, are maybe trapped in
30:47
such a way at the time that some type of pain occurred.
30:51
And if we weren't able to process that pain, which, you
30:54
know, children can't on their own, they need safe spaces to be
30:58
able to do that. We have to let our higher selves
31:01
become that safe space for those inner parts of us.
31:06
So I do a lot of meditation through that.
31:10
And I also very much recognize that healing happens in
31:15
connection and not in isolation. And so I rely on the support of
31:20
my husband, and he and I have a lot of very deep conversations
31:25
as well. All right, I don't normally do
31:30
this because I feel like a lot of the time in instances like
31:34
this, like I like the people to go out and search for the story
31:36
themselves or, you know, I don't always feel like it necessarily
31:40
serves the conversation. I feel like maybe it might in
31:45
this instance. I'm kind of going on a feeling.
31:46
So we'll go from there and be careful of how I word this.
31:53
Looking at your experience, what age would you say where?
32:02
At what point did you start to realize like this is wrong, I
32:07
need to get away from the situation and like what were the
32:12
steps from that point onwards? That's a really, really great
32:16
question. And I mean, I'll, I'll share
32:20
with you as far as you know, because there's a couple of
32:23
different ways to look at coming up with, you know, this
32:27
awareness that this is wrong, right?
32:31
My earliest memory is of my mother faking a heart attack in
32:37
response to me crying. And so I must have been around 3
32:43
when that happened. And I remember, of course,
32:47
cognitively at that point, you don't realize that this is
32:50
wrong. My mother clearly has her own
32:52
issues. But what you do realize is that
32:56
her response of being like, you know, just so irregular or
33:02
dysregulated in response to me being emotional meant that her
33:07
needs had to be prioritized over me.
33:10
And so it taught me that it wasn't safe for me to have
33:13
needs, right? So that became kind of a mantra
33:17
because there were so many various forms of abuse and, you
33:20
know, brainwashing, basically, that occurred over several years
33:24
of my childhood. I probably did not realize how
33:30
wrong everything was until I was around 19 and I left the
33:38
perpetrator that I was married off to at 16.
33:40
And it took me realizing that everything that had happened was
33:50
not my shame, it was not my fault, right?
33:55
Because so much was cast on me, as you know, this is what I had
34:00
done. And this is like, if I had done
34:03
this differently, then this wouldn't have happened or what
34:05
have you. And these were stories that I
34:07
believed because I was starting to be conditioned as early as
34:11
three years old to believe, you know, and, and that type of
34:15
mindset. And there also it got to the
34:22
point, you know, very candidly. And, you know, I certainly want
34:26
to approach this cautiously as well because I don't want to
34:29
trigger any of your listeners. And so, you know, what I'm about
34:35
to say may be something that people need to take a pause on.
34:39
But I think one of the things that was really life changing
34:44
for me was also getting to the point that I no longer wanted to
34:49
live and looking like literally looking to the sky, literally
34:57
listening to the wind, literally trying to feel the sun and try
35:01
to get some sort of reassurance that I was meant to be here and
35:06
that I had some purpose in life. Because everything that I had
35:11
experienced was just pain. And finding that connection with
35:19
my higher self that could receive the fact that I do have
35:24
value to bring. And that all of the pain that I
35:27
had experienced, all of the trauma, everything I was
35:30
carrying with me, all of the self deprecating thoughts as a
35:33
result, I could reframe those because so many other people
35:38
were suffering with those same things.
35:39
It's just not something we talk about, right?
35:44
So as you said, like you left and and started this journey
35:47
sort of like I presumably there were thoughts by that point at
35:51
which you left, Obviously there would have been, but like you've
35:55
left now you're going now begins the recovery process.
35:59
Really, you know what, what are the steps?
36:03
Did you, did you immediately reach out to, to counselling?
36:08
Did you, I don't know, maybe go to the church?
36:11
Did you reach out to friends? You know, how, how did we get
36:15
from this point where a person is conditioned and under
36:18
control? And as you put it, like you're
36:21
just suffering to this person that we see today where, you
36:25
know, you're not only in a happy, healthy place, but you're
36:28
helping people that have have experienced what you've
36:31
experienced. Like, I guess the reason I'm
36:34
asking this question is because there will be people that might
36:37
listen to this, who might be in that spot and they're wondering,
36:41
what do I do? It's not as simple as just I do
36:44
this and it's all OK. Like how do I get there?
36:47
Yeah, that's such a great question too.
36:49
And you know, if we if we look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs,
36:54
right, like the the bottom layer is that that physical security
36:59
has to be in place. And so for me, you know, as
37:03
result of being married off at 16, I had to drop out of high
37:06
school. I didn't even complete the 10th
37:08
grade, you know, at the time. I mean, he had me working in the
37:12
strip club where I was being exploited.
37:14
And so, you know, aside from that and working as a cashier
37:17
here a couple of years prior to that, I didn't really have any
37:21
valuable work experience. So what I had to lean into upon
37:26
getting out of that situation was establishing myself as a
37:30
sovereign individual. And it was hard as hell, but I
37:33
did it. I couldn't go through counseling
37:36
at that time. And I'll tell you why.
37:38
And I, this gets a little, you know, deeper into the weeds of
37:41
my story, but that did not seem like an option to me because my
37:46
perpetrator was a mental health technician in a facility I was
37:50
sent to when I was 14. So this is one of the reasons I
37:55
speak so much about the systemic failures because it's not just
37:58
isolated to child marriage. It's also governance within
38:02
psychiatric facilities that have so many lawsuits per year where
38:08
people are predators and they're perpetrating kids.
38:11
So all of that had to be my own spirituality.
38:15
I've never really been a religious person, but I have
38:17
found a ton of spiritual connection through nature, you
38:20
know, as I described. So that was a big outlet for me.
38:25
And then also, I did very much have the support of my sister,
38:28
who was 10 years older than me. And so she would bring me
38:31
groceries. And, you know, if my electric
38:34
bill was too high during the winter, she would help me pay
38:38
it, you know, things like that. Just to make sure that that
38:40
foundation was set so that I could have that type of
38:45
stability and then start working on the emotional components.
38:48
But the very first things I had to do was stabilize my income,
38:52
stabilize my education. I got my GED, I put myself
38:55
through college and all while raising a small child.
38:59
You know, those were the things I had to do 1st.
39:02
And once I could establish myself that way, then I could
39:06
start working on the more emotional components.
39:09
That isn't necessarily the path for everybody else, but that is
39:14
what I had to do. Did focusing on those goals kind
39:18
of did they help you at least either keep the emotions, the
39:24
feelings at Bay or, I don't know, you know what I'm trying
39:28
to say? Like it's, I think, I mean,
39:31
again, I agree with you. It's not for everyone.
39:34
But whenever I've gone through something difficult in my life,
39:36
I'm like work, just do things. Yeah, like.
39:41
Distraction. Yeah, I think so.
39:43
And it goes to that point too, in when we look at the brain
39:47
science behind it, right? Where your brain can't
39:50
necessarily process logic simultaneously as emotion,
39:54
right? So if the emotion is so
39:55
overwhelming, if you can make yourself get out of that
40:01
dysregulated state and focus on something that has you thinking
40:04
more linearly and has you, you know, exercising more cognitive
40:09
thought processes and such, which is what work can do,
40:12
right? Then that is something that does
40:15
start to free you and it's not suitable long term though, you
40:20
know, I mean, I'll tell you like I started having panic attacks
40:24
because I was working so hard and so determined to distance
40:28
myself from the early life poverty stricken situation I was
40:33
in. You know, once I got my
40:34
education, once I landed a job, I was working so hard.
40:38
I was, you know, getting promotion after promotion after
40:40
promotion, and then finally my body just crashed because I
40:46
wasn't facing the things that we're trying to stir up.
40:49
So again, long term, no. Is it good for, you know,
40:54
settling things at 1st and getting you to a place where
40:58
you're able to find more of a balance?
41:01
Yeah, I think so. For me, that is very much what
41:04
happened. This is what I mean like I've
41:06
said it so much over the years. Why it's important to talk about
41:09
things and address the way you feel.
41:12
Take rest days. This reminds me of this saying
41:16
choose a rest day or your body will choose it for you.
41:18
Yes. Yes, exactly.
41:22
Exactly. Your your book, Ashes to Ashes
41:26
Transferring trauma into Purpose.
41:29
Let's talk about that for a second.
41:30
Ashes to flame. Oh, my apologies, you're good.
41:32
No worries. That's just the flame
41:35
transferring trauma into purpose.
41:37
So a few questions on this. So am I right in thinking it
41:41
sort of details your story and then kind of moves you into like
41:46
more that's kind of what we've been discussing, but like on a
41:48
more detailed scale, would that be fair?
41:50
Yes, exactly. Yeah, I give a lot of details in
41:56
my book and I struggled with was that a good decision or not
42:00
before I published it. What?
42:04
How do you decide what what's right to include and what isn't?
42:07
I mean, that's that must have been a tricky one because it's,
42:11
it's your story. It's it's private.
42:14
Obviously it would have been painful to kind of go through
42:18
this and do it your your goals and what, what the reasoning is
42:22
is brilliant. It's just, you know, it's hard,
42:26
isn't it? Like it's anytime you talk about
42:28
yourself or your struggles, it's, it's very, it's well,
42:36
it's, it's been out there. And once it's out there, it's
42:39
out there. Yeah, exactly.
42:42
And and that level of exposure can feel extremely vulnerable.
42:45
But what I kept coming back to, and I'm happy with where I
42:48
landed on it, is that if I'm having the center conflict,
42:53
other people are as well. You know, I am one and and so
42:56
many. And if anybody else can find
42:59
some type of relevance from my situation to their own, then you
43:05
know, that I think, is where that sense of community begins.
43:09
We've, we've spoken about this a few times.
43:11
I think it's probably best we sort of explore it now.
43:13
So in your work for your advocacy, you know, helping
43:17
survivors, as you say, building this little community that what
43:20
what have been sort of the biggest success stories you've
43:23
come across or where you've been able to really help change
43:26
people's lives through the work that you do.
43:29
Yeah, that's a really great question.
43:32
And so starting back in 2018 when I was so heavily and
43:37
visibly involved in the advocacy, I started getting a
43:40
lot of messages from people on social media.
43:43
And folks tend to reach out to me quite a bit, either through
43:45
social media or through my website, which is trauma to
43:48
purpose.com. And they would share their own
43:50
experiences and they would say things like, I thought I was the
43:54
only one. You know, I've had so many child
43:56
marriage survivors that are now in their 40s and 50s reach out
44:00
and say, I thought I was the only one.
44:03
And we're able to have conversations about how that
44:05
impacted us, you know, and how it impacted our kids.
44:10
And in some cases, you know, people that already have
44:13
grandchildren and, you know, so being able to have those deep,
44:19
authentic conversations, I think it's just, it's so important to
44:23
be able to, you know, set and I use quotes when I say that, but
44:27
sit with a person and, and have your experience reflected and
44:30
understood. The other thing is that I've had
44:35
since my book has been out and I've had several people reach
44:38
out to me and also say, you know, you have motivated me to
44:42
take action. Whether that's pressing charges
44:46
against their predators, whether that is addressing things within
44:51
their family where they feel that their family members turned
44:54
a blind eye to situations or whether it is on an even, you
44:59
know, larger, more visible scale, actually going to their
45:03
own state legislatures and saying, you know what?
45:07
This is something that's happening present day and I I
45:10
want to have a hand in stopping it.
45:12
Like, these are things that I really think, you know, that the
45:15
entire mantra around trauma to purpose, that's where so much of
45:20
the richness of the healing begins Because, yeah, you had
45:23
all this crap that you went through.
45:26
But being able to reframe that into some sort of protection for
45:30
others or even, you know, reclaiming your own sense of
45:34
personal power, man, that makes like that is what breaks those
45:39
generational curses. If there was one piece of advice
45:45
you could give to people, we're in this abusive situation right
45:51
now and they want to get out, or maybe they've just gotten out
45:56
and they don't know what to do next, what would that one piece
45:58
of advice be? Yes, I think I would ask the
46:02
question, what is it from your past that is replaying out in
46:08
this scenario that you're in right now?
46:10
And what I mean by that is there is a psychological term called
46:14
repetition compulsion was coined by Freud.
46:18
And what that means is that unconsciously we tend to put
46:21
ourselves in situations that were traumatic for us when we
46:24
were younger that we never were able to get reconciliation from.
46:29
So let's say that we had, you know, a mother that was really
46:33
judge mental and really harsh with us and nothing we ever did
46:36
was good enough for her. A lot of times we will put
46:40
ourselves in situations with people and get into
46:42
relationships with people that treat us like that because
46:45
unconsciously we're looking for validation.
46:50
We're looking to be able to prove our worth to someone, to
46:54
be able to change their mind about how they treat us.
46:58
But that core comes from a much deeper place than where we
47:01
necessarily are right now in our adult lives.
47:05
And I think once we find that, once we're able to answer that
47:09
question, that helps us find the motivation that we need to be
47:13
able to move forward and to leave those, you know, horrible
47:19
scars behind. I've got a couple of final
47:22
questions for you, completely unrelated today's show just kind
47:27
of like to to round things off. Yeah.
47:32
What's the best advice you've ever received?
47:37
Oh that's such a good question. I would say the best piece of
47:42
advice that I have gotten is that it's a whatever part of the
47:50
journey I am on is OK for that moment.
47:55
Wow. Yeah, That's, that's a good one.
47:58
It's good there. Yeah.
48:00
It's hard. It's hard to sometimes to see
48:02
that in the moment though, isn't it?
48:04
It's like, yeah. Yeah, yeah.
48:07
Someone once told me that, you know, if you're riding a bike
48:12
and you trip over a piece of gravel and you fall off that
48:15
bike, you don't have to go all the way back to where you first
48:20
got on the bike to get back on and move forward, right?
48:23
You just dust yourself off, you get back on the bike and you
48:26
keep moving forward. And that's the same thing, you
48:29
know, It's the same thing in our journey of life.
48:34
What's the biggest life lesson you've learned so far?
48:40
My biggest life lesson is that things are so much bigger than
48:45
just me. Everything I do has an impact on
48:49
other people, just as what others do has an impact on me.
48:53
But the only thing I can control is what I do and what I choose.
49:00
Inspiring stuff, man. Thank you so much.
49:03
Yeah, yeah. Final question for you.
49:04
Do do you have any upcoming projects?
49:07
Any final thoughts that you'd like to share of our listeners?
49:10
Yeah. Thank you.
49:12
And so I continue, of course, to release every couple of weeks a
49:15
new episode on the Last Generation Podcast.
49:18
And my goal in launching that podcast is to keep the
49:21
conversation going. I wanted to take my story off
49:25
the page and build a community around actually having true
49:29
conversations on how we become the last generation of trauma
49:33
survivors, right? And in order to be able to do
49:38
that, we have to learn how to love this upcoming and future
49:42
generations differently than how we were loved.
49:45
So that is something I'm really excited to continue for sure.
49:50
I'm actually working on a second book as well and it is focused
49:56
more on, and the relationship aspect of it.
49:59
And so in that I give more visibility into the
50:03
relationships, the very toxic relationships that I kept
50:06
getting myself into before I met my current husband and, and, you
50:11
know, understanding why I was doing that and then what worked
50:14
so well about the relationship that I'm in now.
50:17
And so I'm really excited for that to be released.
50:20
I think I'm if I'm on target completely, then it will be
50:24
ready to be distributed in November.
50:27
Fantastic, man. I wish you the very best of luck
50:30
with all of that. Yeah, Thank you so much for the
50:33
hard work that you've done and the hard work that you continue
50:36
to do. It's been an absolute honour to
50:39
have you on the show. Thank you so much.
50:41
Oh gosh, Christian, it's been an honour to be your guest for
50:44
sure. And thank you so much for all
50:45
the deep thought provoking questions to you.
50:48
You really have made this a really wonderful dialogue and I
50:51
appreciate it. Oh, it always be mine.
50:54
Like, for me, this is exactly what this show is about.
50:59
Is, is sharing people's stories. Yeah, it's funny.
51:02
I had an episode a while back where I was saying to a guest
51:06
that like, every now and again, when, when you're doing a
51:09
podcast and you've been doing it this long, you need kind of
51:12
reminders of of why you do it. And this is one of those shows
51:17
where it's a big reminder. And mostly because it's
51:21
powerful. You know, I mean, I think if
51:23
nothing else, it shows, you know, whatever you experience in
51:27
life, you can come out the other side of that in a much more
51:32
positive place than you ever imagined.
51:34
And you can also help other people and it'll only be a
51:40
positive thing. Do you know what I mean?
51:42
It'll only and it'll help you too, like so it's kind of run,
51:45
run, you know? Yeah, exactly.
51:48
It's the ripple effect, you know?
51:50
Yeah. Absolutely.
51:51
Thank you so much for for for being here and I will make sure
51:55
all the links to, you know, your podcast and your book and
51:57
everything else are included in the link description to all the
52:00
guests. Oh, sorry, all the listeners of
52:03
the question add to the guests as well.
52:04
I've been on the show before, but to the listeners of the
52:07
Christian Roof podcast, have you been watching the show,
52:09
listening to the show? I hope that you, it feels weird
52:13
to say I I hope you did enjoy the show, but I hope you got
52:15
something some positive from it in power.
52:18
And I hope you got as much as I did from this episode.
52:21
And yeah, make sure to go check out Donna's work, her book, her
52:25
podcast. And as always, be safe, be well.
52:29
And I'll see you in the next one recording stop.