Latest / The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers / The Future of IT Leadership: From Distributed Teams to AI (w/ Kelly Monahan & Christie Smith)

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The Future of IT Leadership: From Distributed Teams to AI (w/ Kelly Monahan & Christie Smith) · The DEX Show: A Show for IT Change Makers

0:01
Speaker 1: Welcome it, change Makers to the deck Show with Tim
0:05
Speaker 1: Flower and Tom McGraw.
0:07
Speaker 2: Let's get into it.
0:09
Speaker 3: Hello, change Makers, Welcome to a very special deck show.
0:12
Speaker 3: It's a very special deck show because Tim and I
0:15
Speaker 3: every now and then we are we are joined by
0:17
Speaker 3: repeat guests, special guests that we're especially excited to invite back.
0:22
Speaker 3: But today we have the first ever combination of a
0:26
Speaker 3: first time guest and a repeat guest. The repeat guest
0:30
Speaker 3: is Kelly Monahan. Kelly joined us when she was still
0:34
Speaker 3: at META to discuss I believe it was employee experience. Kelly,
0:38
Speaker 3: Is that is that correct?
0:40
Speaker 4: Yeah?
0:40
Speaker 2: Good memory? Correct.
0:41
Speaker 3: That was off the top of my head as well, Kelly.
0:47
Speaker 5: People are going to we're going to pull the subject
0:49
Speaker 5: that was probably be the one I would pull listen to.
0:52
Speaker 2: I'm not going to correct you on your own podcast,
0:54
Speaker 2: so good, Well, we've got it.
1:01
Speaker 3: It was about I'm not going to go to anymore.
1:04
Speaker 3: It was a great chat, and I think Kelly also
1:06
Speaker 3: contributed an article for us with a dex hub and
1:09
Speaker 3: welcome back, Kelly. Lovely to see you again. How are you?
1:12
Speaker 2: Thank you too, Thank you excellent.
1:15
Speaker 3: And also welcoming for the first time Christie Smith. Hi Christy,
1:19
Speaker 3: great to welcome.
1:20
Speaker 6: Hi.
1:21
Speaker 4: Well, it's great to be here.
1:22
Speaker 6: I feel like you know, I'm always a fast follower
1:26
Speaker 6: to Kelly, so this is great.
1:29
Speaker 3: And maybe by introducing yourself first of all to the listeners,
1:33
Speaker 3: then Christy here, since I haven't had a previous pleasure.
1:37
Speaker 6: Yeah, sure, Tom, it's great to be with you both. Actually,
1:41
Speaker 6: so I've spent the majority of my career in consulting,
1:44
Speaker 6: a very long time at Deloitte and then Accenture. I
1:48
Speaker 6: was the first head of I n D at Apple
1:51
Speaker 6: and now author, international speaker and founder of the Humanity Studio.
1:56
Speaker 4: So it's great to be with you.
1:58
Speaker 3: Wonderful stuff. And Kelly, welcome back again. What have you
2:02
Speaker 3: been up to since we lost? But not at Meta anymore?
2:05
Speaker 3: I believe I've been following your moves subsequently a little bit.
2:09
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I'm a typical millennial, like you know,
2:12
Speaker 2: don't stay put too often. So I met upwork now
2:15
Speaker 2: I've been there about eighteen months. The reason why I
2:18
Speaker 2: made the move, As you guys know, I've been starting
2:20
Speaker 2: the future of work for over ten years now, and
2:22
Speaker 2: I got really excited about VR in the metaverse, and
2:24
Speaker 2: I still really am. I'm still using the technology, but
2:27
Speaker 2: I realized that we didn't get our talent models right first,
2:30
Speaker 2: and we didn't understand how to actually use alternative sources
2:32
Speaker 2: of talent. And you know, Christy and I focus a
2:34
Speaker 2: lot on in our research is around being that leadership
2:37
Speaker 2: and culture component, right, which is why I came to
2:40
Speaker 2: Upwork to start the Upwork researchs is too, so we
2:42
Speaker 2: can focus on that talent, leadership and culture side and
2:44
Speaker 2: then give me a few more years head the actually.
2:46
Speaker 3: Metaverse excellent and you just mentioned yes, the reason you
2:50
Speaker 3: are here together is you've written a book together. So
2:53
Speaker 3: I guess the best place to start, Kelly is how
2:56
Speaker 3: have you come to collaborate and what inspired you to
2:59
Speaker 3: write taking the book?
3:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, Christie and I met probably almost ten years ago now,
3:04
Speaker 2: when we were both that's a late Christy was a partner,
3:07
Speaker 2: and I've always been on the research side. And I'll
3:10
Speaker 2: be honest with you, Christy was one of those leaders
3:12
Speaker 2: that just stood out and a company, you know, it's
3:15
Speaker 2: filled with a lot of really competitive, great leaders, but
3:19
Speaker 2: they lack sometimes of humanity and really coming to get
3:22
Speaker 2: to know someone and taking that time. Especially you know,
3:25
Speaker 2: at the time I was starting my career as more
3:26
Speaker 2: of a junior researcher, and so Christie's style of leadership
3:30
Speaker 2: really stood out to me. And the question she was
3:32
Speaker 2: asking for us to go research were different than your
3:35
Speaker 2: typical just basic financial P and L type questions that
3:38
Speaker 2: are usually the top of mind group CEOs. Christy had
3:41
Speaker 2: that financial acumen, but then also brought the human side.
3:45
Speaker 2: And so, you know, her and I continue to follow
3:48
Speaker 2: each other one way or the other, but I don't
3:50
Speaker 2: know CHRISTI who's following who actually, And we were together
3:53
Speaker 2: at at Censure much more closely, and you know, I
3:56
Speaker 2: think what we realize at this point in time we
3:58
Speaker 2: can continue to talk about the problem, but we really
4:00
Speaker 2: need to start doing something about this. And so leaders,
4:03
Speaker 2: you know, I'm very empathetic, leaders sometimes get a bad
4:06
Speaker 2: rap when it comes to we talked about before with
4:08
Speaker 2: employee experience and really understanding their workforce. But I think
4:11
Speaker 2: what Christy and I recognize is they just need a
4:13
Speaker 2: new playbook. I think there's a lot of well intended
4:15
Speaker 2: leaders who are just trying to figure this out and
4:17
Speaker 2: they have a lot right now they're navigating. And so
4:19
Speaker 2: that's why we wanted to work together and collaborate, and
4:21
Speaker 2: essential is to really provide that new playbook that moves
4:24
Speaker 2: from talking about the problem and much more to action.
4:28
Speaker 3: And this is the phrase, the key phrase human powered leadership. Right, yes,
4:35
Speaker 3: would you elaborate on maybe the key characteristics office.
4:39
Speaker 2: Mister Christy, do you want this is one of your
4:41
Speaker 2: definitions here and you want to talk a little bit
4:43
Speaker 2: about motional leadership and human powered Yeah.
4:46
Speaker 6: So, you know, the name of the book first and
4:48
Speaker 6: foremost is essential how distributed teams, genitive AI and global
4:54
Speaker 6: shifts are creating a new human powered leader. And in
4:58
Speaker 6: the book, as Kelly said, we are creating a new playbook.
5:02
Speaker 6: And what we do is, you know, is both of
5:05
Speaker 6: our predilection is to do the research to say what's
5:11
Speaker 6: missing in leadership today and how are all of these
5:15
Speaker 6: forces together really impacting leaders, managers, and employees and not
5:22
Speaker 6: just those three stakeholders, but your customers and the communities
5:26
Speaker 6: in which those individuals reside in those companies reside. And
5:30
Speaker 6: what we found in our research is that the fundamental
5:35
Speaker 6: question has changed with regards to organizations and leaders for
5:41
Speaker 6: millennial we've been asking, as leaders of organizations, what do.
5:45
Speaker 4: We require of our employees?
5:48
Speaker 5: Right?
5:49
Speaker 6: You know, what are the skills that we need. What
5:51
Speaker 6: are the attitudes? What's that phrase? I absolutely hate cultural
5:55
Speaker 6: fit you know that we need within our organizations. And
6:00
Speaker 6: given the last several years since the pandemic, and the
6:04
Speaker 6: pandemic was a big part of this, but certainly social
6:07
Speaker 6: unrest that's gone on, global instability politically that's gone on,
6:12
Speaker 6: economic insecurity that's gone on, all of this has really
6:18
Speaker 6: shifted that question where employees are now asking, hey, wait
6:24
Speaker 6: a second, I know what you're asking me to do,
6:28
Speaker 6: but here's what I require of leadership. And in our
6:32
Speaker 6: research we found that there are four areas that employees
6:35
Speaker 6: are really demanding something different before they join an organization
6:40
Speaker 6: or stay at an organization. Purpose, So what is that
6:45
Speaker 6: company value? Are they living up to their purpose? Do
6:48
Speaker 6: their insides match their outsides? And given the investigative tools
6:52
Speaker 6: of our younger generations, they are really looking at and
6:57
Speaker 6: deeply examining how companies and leaders are living up to
7:02
Speaker 6: their purpose and values. The second is agency. Employees want
7:08
Speaker 6: the agency to a define who they are in their
7:12
Speaker 6: own words. Stop defining me by a set of competencies,
7:16
Speaker 6: by a role, or by my gender, race, sexual orientation.
7:21
Speaker 6: I will define who I am at work and I
7:23
Speaker 6: will define how, when and where I want to work.
7:27
Speaker 6: The third is wellness. We know that mental health is
7:32
Speaker 6: the mental health crisis is the new pandemic, and we
7:35
Speaker 6: are seeing an incredible hockey stick rise of mental health
7:40
Speaker 6: issues with regards to employees and employee family members today
7:46
Speaker 6: because of all of the pressures that I talked about earlier.
7:48
Speaker 6: And then finally is connection. How do we create connection
7:53
Speaker 6: in a distributed workplace? But also more and dare I
7:58
Speaker 6: say the word intocye between employees.
8:02
Speaker 4: And with their managers and their leaders.
8:05
Speaker 6: All of those four pieces really demand a new model
8:10
Speaker 6: of leadership, and we need to move from this old
8:14
Speaker 6: model of leadership of emotional intelligence to the requirement of
8:22
Speaker 6: leaders to.
8:23
Speaker 4: Be emotionally mature. And that is.
8:26
Speaker 6: Suspension of self interest, insatiable curiosity, the creation of culture
8:34
Speaker 6: that is meaningful and purpose driven, and this notion of
8:38
Speaker 6: being able to see your employees contextually, meaning not just
8:45
Speaker 6: what they're doing at work, but what are they facing
8:48
Speaker 6: not at work but at home. Countless people and Kelly,
8:52
Speaker 6: you can probably expand on this, that we've worked with
8:54
Speaker 6: over the years are covering some aspect of who they
8:59
Speaker 6: are work and in essence, working with one hand tie
9:02
Speaker 6: behind the back. They're getting a divorce, their child has autism,
9:07
Speaker 6: their parents are being put in hospice, they're family members
9:12
Speaker 6: in a war zone.
9:13
Speaker 4: Whatever it is.
9:14
Speaker 6: These are occupying employees and leaders alike at while they're
9:20
Speaker 6: at work. And if leaders don't and managers don't have
9:23
Speaker 6: the competency to ask questions and understand the contextual competence
9:29
Speaker 6: or have that contextual competence to understand their employees, well
9:33
Speaker 6: then they're never going to reach the business goals or
9:36
Speaker 6: the engagement that they need from their employee base.
9:39
Speaker 5: So Kelly, let me see it up with a question
9:41
Speaker 5: for you to kind of hone in on that subject.
9:45
Speaker 5: So I follow, as you can imagine a few thought
9:48
Speaker 5: leaders on social and there's one that routinely shares written
9:53
Speaker 5: encounters with bad bosses email text and the common theme
9:59
Speaker 5: to all of it, and some of them are just
10:00
Speaker 5: boggles my mind that a manager leader could respond in
10:03
Speaker 5: some ways. But the common theme is a complete and
10:07
Speaker 5: total lack of empathy for employees. So I'm curious if
10:09
Speaker 5: you can expand a bit on the importance of that
10:13
Speaker 5: of that characteristic, that empathy and emotional intelligence in our
10:17
Speaker 5: modern leadership.
10:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think this is probably you know,
10:21
Speaker 2: we want to talk these days about like an existential
10:24
Speaker 2: crisis with AI and there certainly in some concerns, but
10:27
Speaker 2: you know, the reason why we wrote the book is
10:28
Speaker 2: I think leadership and management is in an existential crisis.
10:31
Speaker 2: Like that's the real here and now and the thought
10:33
Speaker 2: leader that you're you know, talking about, And there's a
10:36
Speaker 2: multitude of examples that they're being able to pull and
10:39
Speaker 2: so I you know, Gallup is in a lot of
10:41
Speaker 2: research in the space too. We know people leave their
10:44
Speaker 2: positions not because necessarily a work or environment, but much
10:47
Speaker 2: more around their direclationship with their manager. So my big
10:50
Speaker 2: question is research is like how can we end up here?
10:52
Speaker 2: The reality is like most people don't realize this who
10:55
Speaker 2: have an MBA are gone through any formal management training.
10:57
Speaker 2: We start with the assumption that people don't want to work.
11:00
Speaker 2: Nineteen seventies, agency theory came out, and that's why we
11:03
Speaker 2: started MBA programs, was because we were concerned that people
11:07
Speaker 2: were not going to act and the best in trust
11:08
Speaker 2: in the organization. Now, in all of the research I've done,
11:11
Speaker 2: I have found in general there's been no more of
11:14
Speaker 2: ten percent of the entire population that doesn't want to
11:16
Speaker 2: contribute to some degree, the bad actors or nefarious activity
11:20
Speaker 2: that everyone's so concerned about is really on the peripherial
11:23
Speaker 2: and not the mainstream. And so I think we got
11:26
Speaker 2: to for managers, we've got to flip this question upside
11:28
Speaker 2: in our head and ask do you trust your people?
11:31
Speaker 2: You know, if you start with the assumption that most
11:33
Speaker 2: people want to work, they want to as CHRISTI mentioned,
11:35
Speaker 2: have purpose and make a contribution, have connection that occurs
11:39
Speaker 2: in our workplace today. I mean that is where the
11:41
Speaker 2: majority of people's identity comes from. And so as a manager,
11:45
Speaker 2: if you start with that assumption and think through how
11:46
Speaker 2: do I facilitate the environment conditions that I can bring
11:50
Speaker 2: out the best of my people. I think so often
11:52
Speaker 2: middle managers and managers and leaders star are opposite by thinking,
11:55
Speaker 2: I know people don't want to be here, how do
11:57
Speaker 2: we begin to make sure that they're You know, at
11:59
Speaker 2: the end of the day, I'm managing up top. I
12:01
Speaker 2: want to make sure I look good. How do I
12:02
Speaker 2: get people to do that? And instead, if they let
12:05
Speaker 2: that go and trust their people, I think they're going
12:07
Speaker 2: to be surprised by how well they actually end up looking.
12:10
Speaker 2: Because people will end up doing better than most of
12:12
Speaker 2: the times we set as expectations.
12:15
Speaker 5: And Christy, I love that concept you throughout the suspension
12:19
Speaker 5: of self interest. It struck me and again, I'll put
12:23
Speaker 5: it kind of in the form of a question. Anyone
12:27
Speaker 5: that's been in any kind of people leadership for any
12:29
Speaker 5: amount of time, and as Tom likes to point out,
12:32
Speaker 5: I've got nearly a one hundred year career in corporate world,
12:37
Speaker 5: you certainly either read about or listen to people talk
12:41
Speaker 5: about the difference between management and leadership. Right. We could
12:46
Speaker 5: probably talk for an hour about those two contrasting ideas.
12:49
Speaker 5: But certainly in pandemic and remote work things have certainly
12:53
Speaker 5: changed for managers. But in your opinion, what's the most
12:58
Speaker 5: significant global shift impacting LEADLeadership today? How those shifts in
13:02
Speaker 5: how we lead influenced the organizations and how they oupring.
13:07
Speaker 4: Yeah.
13:07
Speaker 6: I think it is the combination of the things that
13:11
Speaker 6: I talked about earlier, is that most leaders, and I
13:16
Speaker 6: dare say managers are no longer just the fiduciary or
13:21
Speaker 6: the product owners of their organizations. They're global citizens and
13:27
Speaker 6: they are having to grapple with the onslaught of these
13:33
Speaker 6: combined issues. That I talked about earlier, AI technology, global
13:40
Speaker 6: crises around the world, supply chain crises around the world
13:43
Speaker 6: that still are impacting US, health conditions around the world,
13:48
Speaker 6: all of that, and they're having to do that and
13:52
Speaker 6: maintain a focus on outcomes and productivity. Right, that is
13:58
Speaker 6: a very difficult balance. And if you think about the
14:02
Speaker 6: combination of all of those things, lead, I mean, just
14:06
Speaker 6: think about I'll think about.
14:07
Speaker 4: My day, right, My day is stacked.
14:12
Speaker 6: Appointment after appointment after appointment after appointment.
14:16
Speaker 4: And I've got a team globally.
14:18
Speaker 6: Right, how do how leaders choose to make time in
14:27
Speaker 6: their calendary to actually engage with their employees.
14:30
Speaker 4: It's a simple thing to say, a really hard thing
14:33
Speaker 4: to execute.
14:34
Speaker 6: So I think the greatest challenge for leaders today is
14:38
Speaker 6: the mindset shift of.
14:42
Speaker 4: You know, I'm not just a servant leader.
14:45
Speaker 6: I'm not just an emotionally intelligent leader. We've got to
14:49
Speaker 6: move beyond that because the conditions of the world demand
14:53
Speaker 6: it to be truly a leader who suspends self interest
14:57
Speaker 6: for the greater purpose of the people. I've seen an
15:00
Speaker 6: incredible demonstration of that and demonstrations of it in the
15:04
Speaker 6: last couple of weeks. Right, And so how do we
15:09
Speaker 6: think about as leaders, giving up, if you will, the
15:16
Speaker 6: political landscape that you find yourself in. Right, playing politics
15:22
Speaker 6: at work is the biggest issue of dissatisfaction for leaders,
15:27
Speaker 6: managers and for employees. Now certain amount of it. You
15:32
Speaker 6: got to learn how to play. It's a business acumen issue.
15:36
Speaker 6: But what is critical is to step back and say, well,
15:40
Speaker 6: I could play this game or I could suspend my
15:43
Speaker 6: self interest in order to get to know every member
15:47
Speaker 6: of my team deeply, so I know what motivates them,
15:51
Speaker 6: I know what they are creativity, their innovation, how they think,
15:56
Speaker 6: and how do I compose that team to me not
16:00
Speaker 6: to be not just high performing, but Olympic level performance.
16:06
Speaker 4: On my team. And you can't do that if you
16:09
Speaker 4: are back to back and if you were.
16:10
Speaker 6: Thinking about your own political situation in the organization, or
16:14
Speaker 6: your own creation of wealth or the attainment of another
16:17
Speaker 6: position in the organization.
16:20
Speaker 5: Shout out, great connection to current events with the Olympic level.
16:23
Speaker 3: That's awesome, you know what?
16:26
Speaker 4: Clever like that?
16:27
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I think it's safe to say that employees
16:32
Speaker 5: today and maybe in the realm of knowledge workers office
16:36
Speaker 5: workers interact with their digital world more than their human world.
16:40
Speaker 5: Right they're working with applications, they're working with data, they're
16:44
Speaker 5: working with anything that's on the screen at the time,
16:46
Speaker 5: and even when they interact with their manager slash leader,
16:49
Speaker 5: there's a digital tool in between them, zoom teams, whatever
16:52
Speaker 5: it might be. So tie it. Let's tie it back
16:55
Speaker 5: to that digital experience of employees. How does the concept
16:59
Speaker 5: of a human powered leadership relate to the concept of
17:03
Speaker 5: that digital employee experience?
17:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can start and then Christie let me know
17:09
Speaker 2: for you know the thoughts. So I think, you know,
17:11
Speaker 2: one of the things that I think we have to
17:13
Speaker 2: get right with technology, is Christie leader to I think
17:16
Speaker 2: so often leaders turn to this as a productivity tool
17:18
Speaker 2: and efficiency and I think one of the things that
17:21
Speaker 2: I was really impressed with when I was at Meta
17:24
Speaker 2: was building technologies to create social presence in connection. So
17:28
Speaker 2: I don't think these have to be in either or.
17:30
Speaker 2: I think it's really in the design of how we
17:32
Speaker 2: think about utilizing these technologies, the way that we approach them,
17:36
Speaker 2: and I think so often we allow them to be
17:38
Speaker 2: a barrier when in reality, I mean, I let a
17:40
Speaker 2: team when I was at Accenture, it's probably one of
17:43
Speaker 2: the most connected teams I've ever been a part of
17:44
Speaker 2: and we've never met in person, but as Christy mentioned,
17:48
Speaker 2: it was a lot more time as a leader of
17:50
Speaker 2: making sure that I was carving out this space that
17:52
Speaker 2: there was a video you know on I you know,
17:55
Speaker 2: really believe in open calendars. When you're working in a
17:57
Speaker 2: remote environment, there should be no you know, full visits
18:00
Speaker 2: ability of what's happening. If I'm going to go to
18:01
Speaker 2: an orders theory class, that's okay, I'm going to put
18:03
Speaker 2: that on my calendar and have that conversation. I think
18:07
Speaker 2: oftentimes we can either use these tools to further transparency
18:11
Speaker 2: and really bring that physical presence in a digital environment,
18:14
Speaker 2: or we can use them as barriers and again use
18:16
Speaker 2: that as a way to keep knowledge closer to ourselves,
18:18
Speaker 2: churn off the video and really minimize it human connection.
18:22
Speaker 2: So I really think it's all on how we're approaching this,
18:24
Speaker 2: and that's what the book talks about. We do this
18:26
Speaker 2: in human powered way. We're using these tools to connect
18:29
Speaker 2: human to human and just an area of opportunity to
18:31
Speaker 2: do that.
18:32
Speaker 5: And Christy, what are your thoughts about using digital tools
18:35
Speaker 5: to foster that engaging, supportive work environment.
18:38
Speaker 6: Yeah, I look at this in three ways. One is
18:41
Speaker 6: how do you use digital nai to understand your workforce better?
18:47
Speaker 5: Right?
18:47
Speaker 4: The data that we get.
18:49
Speaker 6: Through a teams or through a zoom or through many
18:52
Speaker 6: applications about how teams and the workforce is feeling, they're
18:59
Speaker 6: sent to men.
19:01
Speaker 4: We can collect that.
19:02
Speaker 6: No, not just in a one year employee experience survey.
19:07
Speaker 6: I mean I I honestly companies that are continuing to
19:10
Speaker 6: do that one year I think are really really missing
19:14
Speaker 6: the boat.
19:14
Speaker 5: I mean the Pulse survey, right, they send it up
19:17
Speaker 5: pul survey, I have what is it? I have a
19:19
Speaker 5: one heart beat a year?
19:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, That's exactly exactly my point.
19:23
Speaker 6: I just I just read in the Harvard Business Review
19:27
Speaker 6: that that like ninety percent of employees think you know
19:33
Speaker 6: that their employers don't take action on the employee experience.
19:37
Speaker 6: So it's really let's let's give that up and start
19:41
Speaker 6: thinking about how do we use technology to understand how
19:44
Speaker 6: our workforce is feeling on a daily basis?
19:47
Speaker 4: Right?
19:47
Speaker 6: So, and be really communicative and transparent as to how,
19:53
Speaker 6: when and why you're doing this that you're not looking
19:55
Speaker 6: at individuals, but you're looking at the collective.
19:58
Speaker 4: I think AI does that. That's number one.
20:01
Speaker 6: Number two is how do you gain as a leader
20:04
Speaker 6: or manager, time to free up, like we've just been
20:08
Speaker 6: talking about through the efficiencies of AI and technology.
20:13
Speaker 4: Really looking at where giving.
20:16
Speaker 6: Up the notion that you've got to be back to
20:19
Speaker 6: back and you do the people's stuff at night.
20:22
Speaker 4: You know, we're on the weekends.
20:23
Speaker 6: So how can you free up your calendars by being
20:26
Speaker 6: more efficient using technologies? And the third area is leaders
20:30
Speaker 6: themselves need to learn these new rules of engagement. They
20:36
Speaker 6: need to learn exactly the blueprint that we talk about
20:39
Speaker 6: in the book, that mindset of suspension of self interest,
20:43
Speaker 6: most importantly insatiable curiosity. What does it mean to be
20:48
Speaker 6: curious about your employees and to be able to put
20:52
Speaker 6: your cell phone away, put turn off your computer, turn
20:57
Speaker 6: off your you know, digital work, whatever it is, and
21:01
Speaker 6: engage in a twenty minute conversation with your employees starting
21:06
Speaker 6: with this isn't rocket science, starting with how are you right?
21:10
Speaker 4: What are you working on?
21:12
Speaker 6: You know that we we think that being curious as managers.
21:16
Speaker 4: Is taboo with our employees. And I hear this all
21:19
Speaker 4: the time. Well how do I do that? Christy? Well,
21:21
Speaker 4: how do you do it?
21:22
Speaker 6: When you're standing next to somebody at your kid's soccer game,
21:25
Speaker 6: it's the exact same thing.
21:26
Speaker 4: So those are the three areas. How you use.
21:29
Speaker 6: Digital AI and AI to engage employee sentiment, how do
21:36
Speaker 6: you gain productivity? And leaders needing to learn the new
21:40
Speaker 6: role rules of engagement.
21:42
Speaker 5: Good stuff.
21:45
Speaker 3: So many questions to answered already in this fascinating it's
21:50
Speaker 3: fascinating conversation. I mean, talk about the AI tooling with
21:56
Speaker 3: any more specificity if you can, because it's absolutely fascinat
22:00
Speaker 3: the idea of integrating that human with the artificial. It's
22:05
Speaker 3: a fascinating theme, and I wonder if you could unpack
22:07
Speaker 3: a little bit more how you envisage those could come together.
22:10
Speaker 6: First of all, Kelly, you want to start it, you
22:14
Speaker 6: want me to, You go ahead, and then I'll start.
22:17
Speaker 4: You follow.
22:18
Speaker 6: So I think that there are if you look at
22:22
Speaker 6: tools like Microsoft Teams, or you look at a collaborative
22:28
Speaker 6: tool like a mural, or you look at even zoom right,
22:35
Speaker 6: each of those has the capability to not only capture
22:41
Speaker 6: the conversation, so you can get a transcript from that,
22:45
Speaker 6: and if you, as a manager really look at that transcript,
22:50
Speaker 6: you can begin to determine who's the loudest voice, who's
22:54
Speaker 6: not talking? What are the ideas actually that are coming
22:58
Speaker 6: up that just got muted. Right, You can now do
23:02
Speaker 6: the forensics on a meeting that allows you to go
23:08
Speaker 6: back to a team member and say, hey, tell me
23:10
Speaker 6: a little bit more about that idea, or you were
23:12
Speaker 6: quiet on this point.
23:14
Speaker 4: You know, any input because.
23:15
Speaker 6: As we're building this out, I need everybody's input. That
23:20
Speaker 6: kind of tool and accessibility to that kind of AI
23:24
Speaker 6: transcript and tool is enormous in terms of building connection.
23:30
Speaker 6: The second is as we move into areas of not large,
23:36
Speaker 6: not only large language models, but large action models, these
23:40
Speaker 6: companies are going to very soon be able to identify
23:45
Speaker 6: behavioral cues through the camera that give us a sense
23:50
Speaker 6: for engagement, give us a sense for distraction, give us
23:55
Speaker 6: just a mood, sense of how your employees are feeling
24:00
Speaker 6: right or at least testing that, and so the notion
24:05
Speaker 6: of large. Let me give you a really good example.
24:09
Speaker 6: You know Apple has come out with Apple Vision. Well,
24:12
Speaker 6: part of what Apple is trying to get from Apple
24:15
Speaker 6: Vision is what are your eye movements? And then what
24:18
Speaker 6: decisions are you making as a result of that, what
24:20
Speaker 6: are you clicking on?
24:21
Speaker 4: What are you going to? How distracted?
24:23
Speaker 6: All of that data really tells us a lot about
24:29
Speaker 6: how an individual is managing their day.
24:31
Speaker 4: So these kinds of.
24:33
Speaker 6: Capabilities that these tools are advancing and collaborative tools are,
24:40
Speaker 6: you know, giving us an insight to human behavior around
24:44
Speaker 6: is not shouldn't be looked at as big brother, but
24:47
Speaker 6: should be looked at as a leadership and management tool
24:51
Speaker 6: to help us better understand and engage our employees.
24:55
Speaker 5: And they could be used for good or evil. Tom
24:56
Speaker 5: real quick comment and then throw it back to you. Christy,
24:59
Speaker 5: you made that point about the note taking the AI
25:03
Speaker 5: taking notes in a meeting. You know, even in our
25:05
Speaker 5: conversation today, I can be far more engaged with both
25:08
Speaker 5: of you without having to take notes. If I'm on
25:11
Speaker 5: my keyboard taking note of writing things down, I'm thinking
25:13
Speaker 5: about what you just said versus what I want to
25:15
Speaker 5: say next or what you're going to say. I can
25:16
Speaker 5: be far more engaged if I don't have to worry
25:18
Speaker 5: about any of that and read it later. I think
25:20
Speaker 5: it's a great use of the tool.
25:22
Speaker 3: If I could offer a counterpoint, do you do you feel, maybe, Christy,
25:28
Speaker 3: that that level of digital scrutiny, particularly as so much
25:33
Speaker 3: of our work is remote, could become inordinate or could
25:38
Speaker 3: become a deterring factor in people's engagement, like if you're
25:44
Speaker 3: feeling that you're every you describe a situation, just the
25:48
Speaker 3: the facility you have in mind for this technology is
25:52
Speaker 3: very impressive, very imaginative, and very striking. But at the
25:56
Speaker 3: same time, it requires a level of recorded scrutiny, both
26:00
Speaker 3: of our visual cues and of everything that's said, which
26:04
Speaker 3: I think is going to which could also feel intrusive.
26:09
Speaker 3: I mean, how would you swear that circle or balance
26:12
Speaker 3: that in your view?
26:14
Speaker 6: Yeah, this is where I think transparency and communication become
26:18
Speaker 6: really important. How you roll these tools out right, So
26:22
Speaker 6: how in organization positions itself to use this technology to
26:28
Speaker 6: better engage people in the organization with one another and
26:34
Speaker 6: on the tasks at hand. I think you've got to
26:37
Speaker 6: communicate that really well. I think the second thing is,
26:42
Speaker 6: I think, more than anything, and our research bears this
26:46
Speaker 6: out in the book, is what people want is to
26:49
Speaker 6: be seen, heard, and valued. That is a basic human
26:54
Speaker 6: need and I think is at a level today that
27:00
Speaker 6: is when they're not feeling those things creating anxiety, creating depression,
27:06
Speaker 6: and making people feel invisible at work. So I think
27:10
Speaker 6: the notion of these tools helping us better see our
27:15
Speaker 6: employee base, hear people, you know, in an equitable way, right,
27:20
Speaker 6: not just the loudest voice wins or you know, the
27:24
Speaker 6: old boys club wins, those kinds of things. These things
27:28
Speaker 6: can be used to dismantle that, but it is all
27:32
Speaker 6: all The requirement is how leaders lead around that to
27:36
Speaker 6: create trust, How we create transparency toward trust of how
27:43
Speaker 6: these tools will be used for good and never be
27:48
Speaker 6: necessarily used to as a performance tool.
27:53
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the key communication is everything. Right. You can't
27:56
Speaker 5: come out with a new corporate policy that all all
27:59
Speaker 5: team's calls require video on because we have to watch
28:02
Speaker 5: your eyeballs. Right, It's how you position things has to
28:05
Speaker 5: be done for good for and there's got to be
28:08
Speaker 5: a level of trust there too, Right, You've got to
28:10
Speaker 5: establish that trust. But it's the way you position things
28:13
Speaker 5: is critical.
28:15
Speaker 3: I think, and Kenny, I have a feeding tim and
28:17
Speaker 3: I may have cut you off adding to that incredibly
28:20
Speaker 3: interesting anty.
28:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think it's such an interesting conversation because
28:24
Speaker 2: you know, I think one of my fears is as
28:26
Speaker 2: we continue to wroute these projects, and I completely agree
28:28
Speaker 2: with Christian in the power of the intelligence we're going
28:30
Speaker 2: to have, but my concern is especially spending some time
28:34
Speaker 2: in tech, is that the way that we're approaching these
28:36
Speaker 2: technology and tools is from like a very extroverted, driven,
28:41
Speaker 2: straight white now approach. And so that's what makes me
28:44
Speaker 2: nervous is I'm introverted, So you know, am I going
28:48
Speaker 2: to come up? Maybe I'm fully engaged, but I might
28:50
Speaker 2: acquire or my visual cues may not mimic someone that
28:54
Speaker 2: this model has been trained on. So that's probably just
28:56
Speaker 2: like my watch out that we're thinking about too as
28:58
Speaker 2: we continue to develop our intelligence and upwork is how
29:01
Speaker 2: do we think about accessibility concerns? You know, we remote
29:05
Speaker 2: work has been very beneficial to minority communities, to disabled communities,
29:10
Speaker 2: and I think we just have to recognize how do
29:12
Speaker 2: we incorporate these technologies where we've done so much service
29:15
Speaker 2: as some of these communities and creating inclusive environments. And
29:18
Speaker 2: I think again, like you know, as we go through
29:20
Speaker 2: the book, this is why that contextual competency that Christy
29:24
Speaker 2: was talking about before becomes so critical as a leader
29:27
Speaker 2: is you have to understand the context in which your
29:29
Speaker 2: employees are operating. You can't be treating everyone the same.
29:32
Speaker 2: And so that's just my watch out. I think we
29:33
Speaker 2: as these tools roll out, let's just be careful and
29:35
Speaker 2: really understand who they're being modeled after, what we're actually
29:39
Speaker 2: subscribing as success within an organization. I've done a lot
29:42
Speaker 2: of research that you know, what we even define as
29:44
Speaker 2: success tends to again gravitate towards that very type, a ambitious,
29:48
Speaker 2: extroverted personality. And I'm not sure that's what the world
29:52
Speaker 2: you know. I think we need more diversity and what
29:53
Speaker 2: success looks like within an organization. So that's just some
29:56
Speaker 2: of my feedback.
29:57
Speaker 6: Yeah, Kelly, this is why I love working with you,
30:00
Speaker 6: I love researching and writing with you. Is it's such
30:03
Speaker 6: an important point.
30:05
Speaker 4: I will say that, you know, as a.
30:08
Speaker 6: Leader begins to learn how to be emotionally intelligent, insatiably
30:13
Speaker 6: curious and build kind of their own behavior to build
30:17
Speaker 6: a culture where the tools can help, but hopefully it
30:23
Speaker 6: becomes part of something that is innate to them, is.
30:27
Speaker 4: To reach out.
30:29
Speaker 6: And you know, listen, I've worked on teams for nearly
30:32
Speaker 6: forty years. I mean, I know that the loudest voice,
30:36
Speaker 6: I know who the loudest voice is. I know who
30:38
Speaker 6: I'm always going to get an answer from right and
30:41
Speaker 6: is going to answer every question or have a comment
30:43
Speaker 6: on everything that's discussed in a meeting. You know, I
30:46
Speaker 6: know enough in my career to say, okay, great, we've
30:50
Speaker 6: heard from you.
30:51
Speaker 4: I want to hear from you, know X y Z.
30:55
Speaker 4: What are you thinking?
30:56
Speaker 6: And if you're not prepared to give me a thought, now,
30:58
Speaker 6: let's talk about it afterwards, because I'm not going to
31:00
Speaker 6: make any decisions in this room without actually everybody's voice.
31:07
Speaker 3: I can. I'm just going to chip in so I
31:09
Speaker 3: can really see why you two enjoy working together. Also,
31:11
Speaker 3: every question we get, we get to two sides of
31:14
Speaker 3: the answer, And to that end, I'm going to stop
31:18
Speaker 3: addressing I review of specific questions and I'm going to
31:21
Speaker 3: be interested in both of your responses. So I'm holding
31:24
Speaker 3: on the question of balancing talent and technology, and I
31:27
Speaker 3: think I'm going to add my own caveat to this question,
31:32
Speaker 3: which is, how do you how do you conceptualize what
31:35
Speaker 3: talent is in an era when technology is consuming so
31:41
Speaker 3: much of us skill sets? What what? What? What is
31:44
Speaker 3: left over? It's distinct to the individual employee. In either
31:48
Speaker 3: of your.
31:48
Speaker 2: Views, Christy, I can start with this one because I
31:52
Speaker 2: can share some data that we have so upwork. One
31:55
Speaker 2: of the reasons why I came to is we have
31:56
Speaker 2: an internal labor market. So I'm looking every day in
31:58
Speaker 2: real time and what clients are searching for, what freelancers
32:01
Speaker 2: are listening as skills profiles, and where the hiring is occurring.
32:05
Speaker 2: So no surprise. For the last eighteen months, we've been
32:07
Speaker 2: laser focused on how is generative AI in particular and
32:10
Speaker 2: machine learning disrupting our labor markets, what people actually need
32:14
Speaker 2: and to your point, how much of the skills for
32:16
Speaker 2: humans are either going away being substituted, and then what
32:18
Speaker 2: are the new categories of work emerging? And the picture
32:21
Speaker 2: is very clear, and I think it's anyone who's been
32:24
Speaker 2: studying technology for the last twenty thirty years. We're seeing
32:27
Speaker 2: a skills bias technology change. And so if you're working
32:30
Speaker 2: on routine what we define is low value work, which
32:33
Speaker 2: is just monetary a project that's worth two fifty to
32:35
Speaker 2: five hundred on our platform, we're seeing a lot of
32:38
Speaker 2: disruption for that type of human skill set because AI
32:41
Speaker 2: is able to make people work much faster, more efficiently,
32:45
Speaker 2: and so that is I think just something that we're
32:47
Speaker 2: going to continue to see as the models get smarter,
32:49
Speaker 2: as we start having more reliability and the outputs that
32:52
Speaker 2: they're producing. But then on the flip side, what we're
32:54
Speaker 2: seeing across all categories of work are high value projects,
32:58
Speaker 2: So work that requires complexities, TGIC thinking, relationship management, really
33:02
Speaker 2: taking on more as a project scope, and are getting
33:06
Speaker 2: much deeper with the technology and really being able to
33:09
Speaker 2: build alongside of it. Those are now earning a premium
33:11
Speaker 2: on our platform. I mean, those same workers are now
33:13
Speaker 2: earning anywhere between eight to thirteen percent more per you know,
33:17
Speaker 2: whether it's per hour fixed projects. So I think the
33:20
Speaker 2: lesson here is that to your point, skills are just
33:22
Speaker 2: being disrupted and what was working just a few years ago,
33:25
Speaker 2: even if you were a coder, everyone's getting go be
33:27
Speaker 2: a code or get into STEM. That's actually one of
33:29
Speaker 2: the most disrupted categories we're seeing, and so coders are
33:31
Speaker 2: having to shift and figure out what are they doing
33:33
Speaker 2: as ais it enables them to code more efficiently. And
33:37
Speaker 2: so I think there's two calls of action. The way
33:39
Speaker 2: that I see it and the data is the very
33:41
Speaker 2: first is, if you're in business or you're seeing in
33:43
Speaker 2: professional knowledge work, you have to move up the skills chain,
33:46
Speaker 2: like there is that low value routine work. And if
33:49
Speaker 2: we're going to be honest, Like David Graeber wrote this
33:50
Speaker 2: book bullshit Jobs, a lot of it is just like
33:53
Speaker 2: the administrative bullshit work that we don't really want to
33:56
Speaker 2: do as humans and we're not equipped to do. And
33:58
Speaker 2: then my second thing is to talk about in the
34:00
Speaker 2: book too is I think one of the areas we're
34:02
Speaker 2: not talking enough about is the apprentice in trades. If
34:05
Speaker 2: you look at the jobs reports every month, the reason
34:07
Speaker 2: why we have an imbalanced labor market is there's more
34:09
Speaker 2: demand in healthcare, government services, construction, and maybe the tech
34:14
Speaker 2: and technology and talent combination over there as well. So
34:17
Speaker 2: if you're staying business, you've got to move up the
34:19
Speaker 2: value change and also don't be afraid to look outside
34:21
Speaker 2: of areas that are quite frankly under value today in society.
34:25
Speaker 2: The Chris Curacy at.
34:26
Speaker 6: Your thoughts, No, I one hundred percent agree. And I
34:30
Speaker 6: think that the way that we talk about this in
34:33
Speaker 6: the book is in two ways. One is, you know,
34:36
Speaker 6: this creation of a third category of worker. We talk
34:40
Speaker 6: about white collar workers, blue collar workers, but today, given
34:44
Speaker 6: the influx of the kind of technology that we have,
34:47
Speaker 6: there is a gray category of workers. And it's that overlap,
34:52
Speaker 6: whether it's the blue collar or white collar, and how
34:55
Speaker 6: technology is forcing new competencies in both areas, right, and
35:02
Speaker 6: how we as employees and as a society need to
35:05
Speaker 6: really look at what is that gray gray workers category
35:11
Speaker 6: and what it's required for us to upscale, reskill and
35:15
Speaker 6: engage engage those populations.
35:19
Speaker 4: The second way that we talk about this is.
35:22
Speaker 6: In the complementary competencies of human and artificial intelligence.
35:28
Speaker 4: Right.
35:29
Speaker 6: So, you know, you have human intelligence that you know
35:33
Speaker 6: is truly something that we possess because listen, AI is
35:39
Speaker 6: backwards looking.
35:41
Speaker 4: You know, human.
35:42
Speaker 6: Intelligence is now can be contextual and it's forward looking,
35:46
Speaker 6: right and forecasting. You know, the ability to listen and
35:50
Speaker 6: to observe and to take action, the ability to build
35:55
Speaker 6: a hypothesis and experience driven kind of experiment is unique
36:02
Speaker 6: to us, purpose and values unique to human intelligence. On
36:06
Speaker 6: the other side, you've got, you know, again, artificial intelligence,
36:10
Speaker 6: the past orientation, the linear thinking, identifying really the dominant discourse,
36:16
Speaker 6: which is what you know Kelly was talking about earlier,
36:19
Speaker 6: and how AI is being established by primarily a single
36:24
Speaker 6: demographic it's algorithm dependent. Right. The combination of human intelligence
36:32
Speaker 6: and AI really gives us a new care, new set
36:37
Speaker 6: of competencies that all sets of workers need, which is
36:41
Speaker 6: that decision making and strategy development, governance, how do we
36:47
Speaker 6: think about governing AI and machine learning? How do we
36:51
Speaker 6: think about contextual risks that apply in management and security?
36:57
Speaker 4: These things will.
36:58
Speaker 6: Need to be requireqirements of any organization or any employee base.
37:05
Speaker 3: Question then fever trends, upcoming trends that leaders should be
37:12
Speaker 3: aware of that they might not already have at the
37:14
Speaker 3: top of mind. What stands out to you? Maybe start
37:17
Speaker 3: with Christy.
37:20
Speaker 6: Yeah, I think that there's a couple of things. I
37:23
Speaker 6: think let's be realistic about the trends that leaders aren't
37:26
Speaker 6: accepting today, and that is a distributed workplace.
37:30
Speaker 4: You know.
37:31
Speaker 6: The reality is, yes, we can demand people come back
37:35
Speaker 6: to work. Some industries, some parts of a company that
37:39
Speaker 6: may be a requirement, and for some there's no other
37:42
Speaker 6: choice because they're working frontline or on oil rigs and
37:46
Speaker 6: all of that.
37:48
Speaker 4: So what leaders need to do to really.
37:52
Speaker 6: Hone their own development and skills and communication and all
37:56
Speaker 6: of it and trust with employees is how how do
38:00
Speaker 6: I manage a distributed workplace because it's.
38:02
Speaker 4: Not going away.
38:04
Speaker 6: The second is the trend of this question that I
38:10
Speaker 6: started with employees will make decisions now based on what
38:15
Speaker 6: they require of.
38:16
Speaker 4: Leaderships and organizations.
38:19
Speaker 6: The fastest growing part of our economy today is the
38:22
Speaker 6: gig economy, and that is resulting from largely women and
38:27
Speaker 6: people of color leaving the workforce to start their own
38:31
Speaker 6: whether it's startups or be you know, be freelancers, whatever
38:36
Speaker 6: it is. So this notion of you know, employers and
38:41
Speaker 6: leaders need to get their heads wrapped around the fact
38:44
Speaker 6: that this is bi directional. Now, these questions of requirement
38:47
Speaker 6: not not a one way street. The third area is
38:52
Speaker 6: that's not going to change is technology and the advances
38:56
Speaker 6: of technology. We have just scratched the first surface of
39:01
Speaker 6: large action models. We've just scratched the first surface of
39:06
Speaker 6: AI in biotech. These are going to have dramatic impacts
39:11
Speaker 6: on our humanity period and so being able to really
39:19
Speaker 6: develop those skills and capabilities in addition to large language
39:23
Speaker 6: models is critical today.
39:26
Speaker 4: What we know from.
39:27
Speaker 6: Research is nearly one hundred percent of all leaders that
39:30
Speaker 6: we've talked to CEOs C suite say they know they
39:34
Speaker 6: need to do something differently with the adoption of technology
39:39
Speaker 6: and their organizational structures. Yet only twenty three percent are
39:44
Speaker 6: even thinking of doing something even thinking and doing something,
39:49
Speaker 6: So the percentage is so much smaller of those who
39:52
Speaker 6: are actually doing something. So you know, i'd love to
39:57
Speaker 6: say Tom, hey, these are the future trends.
40:00
Speaker 4: The reality is we're not going to have.
40:01
Speaker 6: A future if leaders don't address these very significant issues
40:06
Speaker 6: today that they're not willing to lean into that point.
40:10
Speaker 2: That point Kenny, yeah, thank you, Christy. So I'll give
40:15
Speaker 2: the listeners a few other things to keep top of mind.
40:18
Speaker 2: So we've talked about it a little bit, but I
40:19
Speaker 2: do think these are the labor markets are unusual. We
40:23
Speaker 2: haven't seen these in the last thirty years where we
40:26
Speaker 2: do have demand exlete supply, and we've already talked a
40:29
Speaker 2: little bit abou where some of the endbalances. So I mean,
40:31
Speaker 2: I do think if we continue to think about unit
40:35
Speaker 2: of a job in order to attract and retrain talent,
40:38
Speaker 2: we're going to have a severe shortage on our hands. However,
40:41
Speaker 2: we begin to think and as Christy teed up, new
40:44
Speaker 2: business starts in twenty twenty three reached a record high
40:47
Speaker 2: in the US, and so there's more people opting out
40:50
Speaker 2: of that traditional employment model. And so I think one
40:52
Speaker 2: of the trends that leaders need to be thinking about
40:54
Speaker 2: has how do we actually move from a job design
40:57
Speaker 2: and these really like old school models that we've inherited
40:59
Speaker 2: since the nineteen twenties into what does a fluid talent
41:02
Speaker 2: arrangement look like? Am I going to be okay managing
41:05
Speaker 2: a team that might work for me and it also
41:07
Speaker 2: might work for another organization part of the time, Like
41:09
Speaker 2: that is the mindset shift that I think needs to
41:11
Speaker 2: take place, because part of this labor and balance and
41:15
Speaker 2: skill shortage and talent shortage is self inflicted. It's by
41:18
Speaker 2: the way that we organize work today, and that's something
41:21
Speaker 2: that I think needs to be disrupted. So again there's
41:23
Speaker 2: a lot of lip service giving to skills based hiring,
41:26
Speaker 2: but I think that's something that we need to start
41:27
Speaker 2: really focusing on in order to get this right. And
41:30
Speaker 2: then the second trend I'll just talk about just because
41:33
Speaker 2: SPA as they haven't come up yet is gen Z.
41:35
Speaker 2: So millennials I think started to ask for different things
41:38
Speaker 2: within the workforce, but gen Z is really coming in
41:41
Speaker 2: as a true first digital native generation and really like
41:45
Speaker 2: they're having a slow start, so they are part of
41:48
Speaker 2: the reason why we also have a labor shortage. Is
41:50
Speaker 2: gen Z is slower to enter into the full time
41:52
Speaker 2: workforce right now, and that is because of TikTok videos
41:56
Speaker 2: and all these other things that have gone around showing
41:58
Speaker 2: how broken the corporate culture system is. And so they're
42:01
Speaker 2: looking to opt out or figure out a new way,
42:04
Speaker 2: and they're doing so on the baby boomer's wealth that's
42:06
Speaker 2: been accumulated. And so we're at this really interesting time
42:09
Speaker 2: period where the next generation coming into the workforce is
42:13
Speaker 2: asking for something completely different, and so we are seeing
42:16
Speaker 2: the social contract shift and I think it's going to
42:18
Speaker 2: be interesting. What does gen Z want to do, you know,
42:21
Speaker 2: with their technology and their capabilities and what we saw
42:25
Speaker 2: for the first time in a business insider, Aki Odo
42:28
Speaker 2: just wrote this report that for the first time, we're
42:30
Speaker 2: seeing gen Z actually want to go work in jobs
42:33
Speaker 2: that are more meaningful and filled with purpose and gravitating
42:36
Speaker 2: towards Saint Jude Hospital is one of the top ones
42:38
Speaker 2: and really upending the tech companies for the first time.
42:41
Speaker 2: So I have optimism in the next generation that they
42:44
Speaker 2: do want to work differently and that they may be
42:47
Speaker 2: looking into areas of work that are actually going to
42:49
Speaker 2: do more collective good because, as Christie said, we won't
42:52
Speaker 2: end end up having a future to even think about
42:54
Speaker 2: if we don't start getting people healthy, start focusing on
42:57
Speaker 2: the climate, and start making sure the distribution of wealth
43:00
Speaker 2: more evenly distributed.
43:02
Speaker 3: I honestly, what you're going to say everyone on TikTok
43:04
Speaker 3: too much?
43:08
Speaker 7: Everyone, I won't do a much more, honestly, just just
43:19
Speaker 7: an absolutely fascinating discussion.
43:22
Speaker 3: I loved it so so interesting and Tim, any anything
43:26
Speaker 3: you have left to tip him with or ask, because
43:29
Speaker 3: I've stimulated by this myself.
43:32
Speaker 5: I think we explored a lot. I love. I love
43:35
Speaker 5: kind of the blend of people and technology. We kind
43:38
Speaker 5: of tend to fall entirely on one side or the
43:41
Speaker 5: other web entire episode just on AI or just on
43:44
Speaker 5: on leadership. I love the way that you guys connect
43:46
Speaker 5: the dots and make sure that we're thinking about both
43:49
Speaker 5: sides of the equation. So really appreciate the really appreciate
43:51
Speaker 5: it today.
43:52
Speaker 3: And you do have a joint website which we will
43:56
Speaker 3: direct people to in the show notes who want to
43:58
Speaker 3: follow up, and as it's a pre order of a book,
44:02
Speaker 3: and just just a real joy. Thank you both so much.
44:05
Speaker 4: Well, thank you so much for having us.
44:07
Speaker 2: We appreciate it.
44:08
Speaker 4: It's super fun.
44:10
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Speaker 1: nextthink dot com.
44:31
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for listening.
44:33
Speaker 1: Until next time.