Latest / True Crime and Wine Time / S6 E3 Maureen McDermott - Innocent or Guilty Part 2

Transcript

S6 E3 Maureen McDermott - Innocent or Guilty Part 2 · True Crime and Wine Time

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to true crime and one Time, I'm Terry and
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: I'm Lama. Tonight we are uncorking the truth one of
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the darkest crimes and breaking it down together with you.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: One case, one conversation, and one or maybe two glasses
• 0:17
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• 0:20
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• 0:24
  Speaker 1: So let's take a sip and dive in.
• 0:35
  Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, how are you?
• 0:46
  Speaker 2: I'm good? How are you?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Hello?
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Hello? Hello, hello hello hello.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: Well I feel like I've been with you all day
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: today because I was able to listen to you and
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: buffet you're and moore owen, So I kind of like
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: we've been hanging out and we have a little So
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: I've gotten a lot a Lama.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Time, a lot a Lama time for you today. And
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: I got gifts Lama gifts from you today because.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Us, yes, apparently need stays to send freaking Valentine Stone.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: And I got a kill little amazing a bag. It's adorable,
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:23
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• 1:28
  Speaker 4: music man and a lady in gray somewhere, oh my,
• 1:33
  Speaker 4: in freezing But we're both.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: Clickie never mine you clicked in touch. Oh you didn't, okay,
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• 2:15
  Speaker 2: could show the comments on stage and they could just
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  Speaker 2: watch there in comment. I don't know, people, I'm sure
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: YouTube will figure it out in about eight years the tracks.
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: So well everyone, Hello, happy Thursday night. Before we begin, though,
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• 3:45
  Speaker 1: This is winning much more.
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Bells kicked yourself out, Bells, be nice to yourself. Do
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: not do that again, or I will drive there and
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: I will.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Kick your butt. Ooh nice.
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: Now, guys, we have a special episode of True Crime
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: and Wine Time coming up on Tuesday. You heard me Tuesday,
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: February twenty fourth, at eight pm Eastern, where we will
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: have a special guest who's going to share with us
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: her story and her joy journey. I can't even talk
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: in justice for Ruby, guys, I have to warn you.
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: The story's going to make your blood boil, your heartbreak,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: make you smile, make you grab tissue in so much more. Okay,
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: I'm telling you, it's got all the feels.
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited to have her on. I've been doing
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit of research into it. I'm diving more
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: into it over the weekend, but I am already pissed.
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: So look at that face of me.
• 4:51
  Speaker 2: She's so cute.
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: Yes, Bells, there's some Okay, I clicked it first, and
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: you tried to like get stuck trying to be controlling. Yes,
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: there are tornadoes not right in her direct area. Yet
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: if we hear the siren go off, WAM is just
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: gonna leave the computer streaming, Yeah, so that we can
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: all see what happens.
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: No, don't worry, Bells. They're not supposed to come in
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: for another hour, hour and a half maybe, so I'm
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: sure we'll be fine. But those of our friends who
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: are in Illinois and Indiana right now, particularly southern Indiana.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: Please stay safe. Listen to your weather right now. I mean,
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: have Ryan Hall y'all on in the background while you
• 5:35
  Speaker 2: listen to us. But if you only have one device,
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: please go watch him and then come watch your show later.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: All right, Many tornadoes have already dropped down because that's
• 5:43
  Speaker 2: what I was listening to before we went live, So
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: please be safe in all of that.
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Why don't you tell us what we're covering tonight because
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: this insanity is all you.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is, it is so tonight we're part two
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: of the Stephen Eldrich murder and the case against Maureen McDermott,
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: who is still sitting on death row over thirty five
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: years later. Now it's not a well known case and
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: it's an older one, but to me, this case is
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: something that I think needs to be looked at into more.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: And I'm curious to hear everyone's thought on this as well,
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: especially after what we reveal tonight. So I don't know
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: how y'all are feeling with part one. If you don't
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: know what we're talking about, we do have a part
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: one to this story. The part one, I think kind
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: of leaves you a little bit on the fence about things.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: But you guys are going to hear some stuff tonight
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: and my trial watch. Your friends are going to lose
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: their minds.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: So they are. Oh, Buffy made it. Welcome, Buffy. I'm
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: glad that you didn't get lost on the insanity train
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: that you were on with Lama today. It was a
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: little worried.
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah she's here. But hello, hello friends, Hello, Hello, what
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: is that? Oh gogy? Okay, sorry, I've read that really weird.
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: But anyway, so why don't you tell us what you're
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: drinking tonight? Dry?
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: So tonight and I did not have it refrigerated, but
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: I love the bottle. Look at that, I know, and
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: it's a bottle I'm gonna keep because it's painted. It's
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: not a stick, so I will be keeping it. It
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: is forever young Kotes de Provence rose. They say it's fresh,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: crisp and vibrant. Even has a glass cork.
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: Oh that's fancy. Look it's not bottle.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: It's thirteen ninety nine.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's so, and it's good.
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: But it wasn't refrigerated, so I did have to add
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: my cute little.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: Plastic ice cubes. Are they herd staring? No?
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: They're actually stars because the hearts were in the drying
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: from the party this weekend.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: I knew you had our ice cube.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I do. I have diamond ons too. What do you drink?
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: I love that well. Tonight, I'm already trying to throw
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: a lot of my bottle. To be honest with you,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: I'm drinking Stella rosa mescato diasti, which is basically like
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: a wine and champagne is basically what it tastes like.
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: It's pretty light for a sweet wine. I would say
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: it's swim semi sweet. I wouldn't say it's like super
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: duper sweet or anything like that. But big fan, my
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: only complaint is it barely has any alcohol bi volumes,
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: so please do better. Stella Rosa.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, I'm sure you have a bottle of
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: something else you can open if you get desperate.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Probably probably, But anyway, so let's go ahead and get
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: Intonight's case.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: I hope you are okie, like swhite one.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: I do tan yes.
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: So in our last episode, we laid out the heroine
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: case against Marie McDermott for the murder of Stephen Eldridge.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: We saw a respected nurse, a woman known as a
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: soft touch allegedly transform into a calculating architect of murder.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: We heard about the forty four.
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: Stab wounds, the stage crime scene, and the one hundred,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: one hundred thousand dollars life insurance policy that the state
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: claimed was her ultimate prize.
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: What was it.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: By the time the gavel fell in nineteen ninety, the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: narrative seemed settled. Maureen was a cold blooded manipulator who
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: used a pathetic character named Jimmy Luna to do her
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: dirty work.
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: Right, Well, that's what the state wants you to believe,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: because we know in the world that you cry. The
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: settled narrative is often the most dangerous because to believe
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: in Mauurene's guilt, you have to believe in the absolute
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: honesty of three men, and that's Jimmy Luna, who is
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: a diagnosed psychotic and admitted pathological liar. Like we're talking
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: Laura Owen's level over here, the brothers Marvin and Don
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: Dell Lee, who both walked away Scott free of murder
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: charges by getting a full immunity in exchange for their
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: testimony against Saurene.
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: Anyway, guys, when we say Scott free, we mean literally
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: they are free.
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for stabbing a man forty four.
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: Times and cutting off is membrane.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, But listen, guys, if you pull one single
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: thread in their stories, the entire case begins to unravel.
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: And unravel. It does, unravel, it does.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: We are dedicated to this second episode because the legal
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: system isn't always about what happened, it's about what can
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: be proven. Since her conviction, a different story emerged. It's
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: a story of a woman whose greatest flaw wasn't greed,
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: but a naive refusal to see the darkness and the
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: person she tried to help. And there's so many of
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: us that fall victim to that.
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: On this episode, we're going to look at the evidence
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: that was never heard, the psychiatric profiles that were downplayed,
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: and the shocking and consistent inconsistencies in the confessions that
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: sent Maureen to death row. You know, we have to
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: ask ourselves. Is Maureen McDermott a killer or is she
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: the most tragic victim of the men who actually held
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: thee Oh that helps if I have a picture there
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: it is. And tonight we're gonna dive into the case
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: for innocence, which you know, we'll see how that goes
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: We'll see how that goes. We will see how that goes.
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: Can't wait to hear what you all think about this
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: as we go along.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to start peeling back the layers of
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: the state's case. Let's begin with the first few hours
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: after the murder of Stephen Eldridge. While the prosecution used
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: Maureene's behavior during her interrogation to paint her as cold,
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: a closer look at the conditions of that night suggest
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: a far more disturbing reality. The foundation of any criminal
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: case often rests on the first statement given by a suspect.
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: For Marine, those first hours weren't just an interview, guys,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: they were a trial by exact And we all know
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: how Lama feels about that. She has strong opinions. Let's
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: getting ready for a lot of rants tonight, a lot
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: of a lot of rants, all right, So imagine the scene.
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Okay, it's two am. Maureen has just witnessed a brutal
• 13:16
  Speaker 2: murder of her freaking roommate and has been injured and
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: attacked herself, all right. She's then taken to the hospital,
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: then immediately to the police station once she was cleared
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: from the hospital. She isn't wearing a suit or even
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: her own clothes. She is interrogated for seven straight hours
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: wearing nothing but a thin, skimpy hospital gown, which is
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: already I'm already like can I go home now? Like
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: this is no, that's like no what and you got
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: she had no underwear on, no shoes, no coat. I mean, yeah,
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: it's California, but.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Still it's gets chilli in the evenings.
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the hospital records show that her ten but
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: sure while she was there was ninety six point two
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: degrees fahrenheit, which is a clear clinical indicator of a
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: person being in shock. So that's not This is not
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: a great person that you want to be interviewing at
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: this time.
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: So lady and Gray right out a box, says what
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: Terry's gonna say, even if you're just a witness an attorney, Guys,
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: I can't say it enough. Let them think whatever they
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: want to think about you, Okay, just tell them Terry
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: and Lama said, so.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, I don't call this because we're not lawyers. Yeah,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: we're not lawyers.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: In this weakened, nauseated, and frightened state. She was then
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: subjected to good cop, bad cop tactics by Detective real
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: and arnold, and since she had no criminal history or
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: experience with the legal system, Marine was allegedly never read
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: her miranda rights, nor was a lawyer present or even
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: suggested to her. She didn't know that she could do that,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: I mean advantage in my opinion.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: And also, this is the eighties where recording interviews, both
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: with tape recorder and you know, visual is really much
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: of a thing. So I mean, do I think there's
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: a good chance that could have happened. Yes, Oh, absolutely, yes,
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: I very much could, especially if you know anything because
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: remember they're in Los Angeles that area, So if you
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: know anything about that time during the eighties.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: Well, look at what happened in Texas in the eighties
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: with one of the cops that was on the yogurt
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: Chop murders. He held a gun to take a person's
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: head to try to get a confession out of them.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: And the guy wasn't guilty, right, but I'm.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: Sorry, you hold again to my head.
• 15:56
  Speaker 2: I'll confess, right, I mean, who wouldn't honestly, Lauren later
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: described the intimidation she felt. She claimed Detective Royle was
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: openly hostile, even stating he quote did not like homosexuals,
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: creating a climate of fear rather than fact finding, because
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: remember Stephen was gay, and Jimmy said, well, Maureen wants
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: it to look like a homosexual murder.
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: And so and your personal opinions, sir, when you're being
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: a detective and interviewing.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: Has nothing to do. Sorry, keep it hearing.
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Perhaps most damning is the police paperwork and their
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: request for search warrant. Detectives wrote that Maureen appeared not
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: to be in physical or emotional distress.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Which I do not believe, sir, sir. I'm an emotional distress,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: just wearing a hospital gown it being ours and being questioned.
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: Sure, this stands in total contradiction to the medical reality
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: of her injuries and her subnormal body temperature. Like guys,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: she was beaten, she was physically assaulted. Saw this, sir?
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Sit down. A major pillar of the prosecution was that
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: Marine didn't act like a grieving roommate.
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: She said shock hello.
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: However, experts argued this is a scientific.
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: Fallacy, the one that we see very often very also
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: we do too, you know, it is kind of a
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: human nature to be like m You're not doing it
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: like how I would do it. But also Maureen is
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: an rn all right, she was in pediatric was she
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: what was her thing again? I don't know, but she
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: was an r in And you know you gotta compile
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: mentalized stuff in a job like that, you know, you can't, Yeah,
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: you can't let your emotions get in the way. So
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: she's used to that, but then she's just had this
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: very traumatic thing happen. Her best friend, slash Room is dead, Like,
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: how do you even process all of that so quickly?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: You know? So well? Doctor Marjorie Broad, a psychiatrist who
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: worked with Maureene, points out that there is no correct
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: way to behave after a traumatic event, and when an
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: officer testifies that a defendant wasn't upset enough, they aren't
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: giving a scientific opinion. They are demonstrating a personal bias,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: which is very important when you're watching trials to be like, hmm,
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: you know you're not supposed to say that, and you do.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: What are you trying to make us believe right now
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: to the day she passed Because sadly a lot of
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: people in a story tonight, we've heard about our alonger
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: with us, which is very problematic in trying to get
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: Maureen in who trying it is, but doctor Broad remained
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: one of Maureene's staunchest advocates, stating she had found absolutely
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: nothing in Maureene's history or psyche to indicate that she
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: was capable of such a crime. And that's pretty interesting
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: because that would have been, you know, several decades after
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: the fact. Now, yes, people can have no criminal history.
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: They can just seem like they wouldn't hurt somebody. It
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: happens all the time.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: But do we trust a psychiatrist or detective who doesn't
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: like homosexuals?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Right? And god, fine, I'm.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Just throwing it out there. When Detective Arnold confronted Maureene
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: with the phone records between her and Luna, she didn't
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: hide and explain the reality of their relationship. She stated
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: that Luna was a compulsive caller who asked everyone. She
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: did admit to calling him after the attack because she
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: viewed him as a flaky coworker who needed to know
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: what had happened. She said she treated Jimmy Luna like
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: a stray dog. She was trying to help. She didn't
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: realize that in his mind he was playing a much
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: darker game.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Oh Jimmy freakin Luna. Yeh, all right, So that was
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the interrogation is big problem, you know, number one. So
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: let's get into big problem number two. This one. There
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: we go, There we go. The investigation. Now, if the
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: prosecution's case was a house, the foundation was the investigation
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: led by Detective Melvin Arnold. But under cross examination, that
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: foundation didn't just crack. Oh no, no, no, it crumbled.
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: Wait till you guys hear about this all right. The
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: defense argued that the lead detectives didn't follow the facts,
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: and that they followed a hunch and ignored everything that
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: didn't fit. Wh No, never happens, that never happens.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: A major smoking gun for the state was the sheer
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: volume of phone calls between Maureene and Jimmy Luna. Over
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: seventy five percent of these calls were initiated by Luna.
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: That says something. Maureen explained to detectives that he was
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: a compulsive caller who harassed her and others constantly. I
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: think we've all knew somebody like that, at least in
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: our life. Yes, at the time, phone records could only
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: show a connection between numbers. They couldn't prove who was
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: on the line, if the call was actually answered, or
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: if it simply rang into an answering machine. Because remember, guys,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: this was back when you have these little machines in
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: your house with little tapes.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: You had to be stuck to the wall talking.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: The mountain of evidence was in reality a mountain of
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: unanswered rings.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because remember in part one they were like, oh
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: my gosh, there's all these phone calls. Look at all
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: of these phone calls. And really it didn't really say
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: a whole lot in anything there.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: Went in the phone conversation, just phone calls.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: Now, despite this lead, the police never bothered to check
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: with the hospital about anything. Had they asked, they would
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: have found co workers ready to testify that Luna was
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: frequently reprimanded for making hundreds of personal calls. Now this
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: next part. One of the most bizarre pieces of evidence
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: used to discredit Marine's story involved her claim that she
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: was interrupted while preparing for a bath. All right, so
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: the police claimed the water was too hot for her
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: to have been in the tub. All right, They're like, no,
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: there's no way you could have been in there. However,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: the science that they go to use in court was
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: shockingly unprofessional. All Right, if you watch the Karen Retrail
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: and apture rings any bells, and doctor Welcher rings any bells, Well,
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: we may have met the future missus, missus Welcher, because
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: this is worse than that. Okay, so lapd oh, that's
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: not me, that's you.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: La tell me lap As, I'm the bath queen over here.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: It's your lapd krimlist during Music admitted she never actually
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: took the temperature of the water at the crime scene.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: Yep, nope.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Instead, she testified that her independent experiments were conducted in
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: her own bathtub at home.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: M yeah, super scientific.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: Excuse me, miss Dorene. How could you even conduct experiments
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: in your own bathtub if you don't know what the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: temperature was in.
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: The bathtub and the type of bathtub, because let me.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Tell you, I take some hot baths.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: People.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: I come out and my legs are flaming red. Some
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: people like that now, Music herself eventually walked back the
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: too hot claim, describing the water merely as moderately warm
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: or warmer than lukewarm. So scientific, that's a big difference, people.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: That's also none of this matters.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: It doesn't like none of it.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I can't even believe that this was brought up in
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: a death penalty trial and This was used as forensic
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: evians against so are you kidding me? Bathwater?
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: It was never even temperature gauged to begin with.
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: It's crazy.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I love that there is a detective vander Lazy training school.
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so many go there, it seems. Now. Perhaps
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: the most damaging revelation came from Detective Arnold himself. Ah gosh,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: you guys thought that was bad. Buckle up, I'm gonna
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: have it. In a capital murder case, you expect meticulous documentation, right,
• 25:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking about the freaking death penalty here now. Instead. Arnold,
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: again lead investigator, admitted he took zero notes at the
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: crime scene. Zero and by the time he testified five
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: years later, he was relying entirely on his memory. Isn't
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: that convenient? Isn't that convenient?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: If he does that on a death penalty case, can
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: you imagine what he did on other cases?
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Right? I mean, you walk into that kind of scene,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: you should be like, oh shit, I need to get
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: all of my ducks in this row and in this basket,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: and I need to yeh know.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: Didn't bother taking a single note about anything?
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: Under oath. Arnold admitted his methods were sloppy, and that
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: he was only guessing about key aspects of the case.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: Excuse me, Yeah, as a lead investigator should guessing.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: Guessing? Isn't that what we do on will of fortune?
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Maybe he was allowed to testify that certain things that
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: the scene felt unusual, but when pressed, he couldn't provide
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: any forensic reason why they were, just his gut feelings
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: and no tangible evidence. I just felt it was off
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: and it was that way, so right, just believe.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: Me, right, isn't it crazy?
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: Like I mean, already we should have had Laura Owens
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: writing his notes. Consideraba, you know writes a novel of stuff.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: Right, Like, oh my gosh, it's crazy. Now. In a
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: final startling admission, Arnold stated that he didn't even know
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: who wrote the notes that did exist in the file.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: Doesn't even know. He's like, I don't know, me, I
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: don't know who did it. Somebody put notes in there
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: and nobody has their name on it. Right, So basically,
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the lead investigator of a death penalty case was essentially
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: guessing his way through the witness stand.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: And the wild.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: It was allowed, which is crazy to me. Now, the
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: question is simple, can you sense a woman to death
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: based on crude batht of experiments and the memory of
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: a detective who admitted his work with sloppy like what No,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: I would if we were watching this trial right now,
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: I'd be like, Nope, doesn't even matter, doesn't even fucking
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: matter if she did it or not.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Nope. You know, we would be calling the courthouse if
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: they let this stuff fly on the stand. Okay, right now,
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: let's shift the focus from the evidence of the crime
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: to the conduct of the me and tasked with defending
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: Maureen McDermott, her lead attorney, Joe Ingberg.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: While the prosecution painted a picture of a fair trial,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: the defense's inner working suggest a staggering series of ethical
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: breaches and professional failures. I mean, buckle up, babies.
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: If you have ought the what we've already said, is
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: it not good for her? Well, it's not great when
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: this is your defense attorney either. So the most explosive
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: revelation of Maureene's defense involves a direct connection between her lawyer,
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Joe Ingber and her accuser Jimmy freakin Luna all right,
• 29:48
  Speaker 2: who remember is the state star witness.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Now?
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: Before he ever took Maureene's case, Joe Ingber represented a
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: man named Randy Howard who was the lover of Jimmy
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Luna while Luna was in the La County jail. Mm hmm, yep, yep, yeap,
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: hell kids better, Oh why.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Do what the hell? Luna had actually attempted to hire
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: Ingbert himself, and later testified that Ingbert had actively sought
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: to be appointed as his defense counsel.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: That's a big no no.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: That's but when Ingbert was instead hired by Maureen's friend,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: he reportedly denied any prior relationship with Luna. Basically, he
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: lied mm hmm. However, he did not deny visiting Luna
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: in jail to hold his hand right, and the prosecution's
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: record suggests that the district attorney was completely aware of
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: this conflict of interest that never alerted the court, which
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: is horrible and shocking.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: Right because like, listen, if you go to a lawyer, right,
• 31:13
  Speaker 2: you haven't hired them yet as your attorney, but you
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: have given them details about your case. And let's say
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: me and Terry were suing each other and I go
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: to lawyer A, and I tell, you know, do a
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: consultation with them about what happened. Guess what they can't
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: do Terry can't hire them to be her lawyer because
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: I already talked to them first. Whether or not they're
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: my lawyer or not. It's their get some whether ye,
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: whether you hire them or not. So this should not
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: have happened.
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: No, Yeah, And the fact that the DA knew that's
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: a big problem too.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: We'll get into her, We'll get into her.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: Now, despite the fifty eight thousand dollars paid to him
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: buy Maureen's friends, that's right, fifty eight thousand dollars in
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: eighties money. Okay, that's a lot of money, twelve thousand
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: of which came for Marine herself. All right, Remember how
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: they were all like, oh, Marini needed money, Marini had money.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: She had to do this to pay for the house.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: She had twelve grand sent around. I don't think that
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: was the issue here. Ingber allegedly did almost no work
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: on the case four years. He reportedly developed no theory
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: of defense, and failed to hire a criminalist to evaluate
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: the crime scene or a psychiatrist to evaluate Luna. That's right,
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: he did dick in the case.
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: Between nineteen eighty six and nineteen eighty nine, Ingber requested
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: twenty seven continuances fifetay seven, telling Marine that the longer
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: they waited, the more likely witnesses were to die or forget.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's a tactic, that's true, but still.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Not a good tactic.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Not great.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: And when investigator Bob Zinc was finally hired in nineteen
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: eighty nine.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Four years after the murder, yeah, forty.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Months guys after her arraignment, he found that no investigation
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: of any kind had been done. He was shocked to
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: find that the trial had already started without a clear
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: defense strategy. How this woman is not out?
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: I do not know, right, right? This wild? This is
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: absolutely insane, all right. So Maureene's personal interactions with Inger
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: paint a picture of an attorney who was dismissive and unprepared. Shocking,
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: I know, right. She met him for the first time
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: at her arraignment, where he told her he was too
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: busy for her case and handed much of the work
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: to another attorney, Carl berkow Cool. When Maureene asked how
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: she could prepare to testify, Ingber's response was allegedly a
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: stinging rebuke of how the hell should I know what
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: she's going to ask you? I'm not Clara Boyant. Oh
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: oh okay, sir, well, I kind of thought that's what
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: we bade you all this money.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Sport say, I thought that was your job. Sorry, sorry, okay,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to try to not drink too much during
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: this case tonight. The financial side of the defense was
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: just as murky. To maximize his payments, Ingber allegedly lied
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: to the court about the money he had already received
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: from Maureene's friends, leading to a secret ex partey proceeding
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: where he got himself appointed by the court as her
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: paid counsel. He was double dippin' these guys, allegedly, I know,
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: allegedly because he was hiding the money he had already
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: been paid. Inger could not call Maureene's friends to testify
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: on her behalf.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: This allowed the prosecutor to mock Maureen in front of
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: the jury, stating, hmm, it was interesting, was it not
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: that not one of her friends showed up to testify
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: on her behalf. I mean I would have been that
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: friend that I would have stormed into the court and
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: saying I need.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: To be heard, objection sit every day, your honor.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: She has a friend, but I can't come because this
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: guy won't let me.
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: M hm. Now. Perhaps the most damning moment came after
• 35:55
  Speaker 2: the guilty verdict. Witnesses reportedly saw Detective cry Well and
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: the prosecutor snickering over a note past to Joe Inger.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: The note allegedly read, thanks Joe, we couldn't have done
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: it without you. Mm hmmm mm hm hm oh my hm. Speechless.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Wasn't until later, when Ingberd gave an interview about Maureene's
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: appalling crime and her conditions on death row, that Maureen
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: realized the man she had paid to save her life
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: actually believed she was guilty, and his defense, or lack thereof,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: reflected that belief.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: That that is a crime, right there, m hm, right,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: of course you'd be like, well, I think so, especially
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: when you didn't do your work, just because who's gonna
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: argue with you? Know that? Like, oh, you know, not
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: so great defense attorney. That's right. It's not just the
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: state's fault in this scenario. Oh no, oh no, no, no, no.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Well, they were both complicit in my opinion, because the
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: defense attorney had a relationship. The DA should have been
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: calling foul on that. Well, she has other agency, she's
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: got other problems.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Speaking of problem number four, prosecutor Katherine Mader. Now, for
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: problem number four, we're going to take a look at
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: the woman across the aisle, Miss Katherine Meader, who led
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: the prosecution that sent Marine to death row. But her
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: path to that conviction and her career afterwards is paved
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: with allegations of racial manipulation, suppressed evidence, and a reckless
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: abuse of the truth. Now spoiler later, guess what she
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: becomes a justice for like nineteen fucking years. You can't
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: believe it, And oh she's a true crime author.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: It's a true crime I was like, Oh, what, I
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: wonder if she's going to write a story about herself.
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: Hmmm, let's see what you all think of Catherine coming
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: up here.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: If Joe Inger's defense was a failure of a failure
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: of effort, the prosecution led by Catherine mad is alleged
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: to be a failure of ethics. To secure a death
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: sentence against Marine, Mader had to rely on three men
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: who had every reason to lie, and they were known
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: to be liars.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: Now, the mechanics of Mater's immunity deals were to many
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: a perversion of justice. Agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed, agreed.
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: Everybody of the everybody in the chat that agrees, raise
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: your hand.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Yep, who are you? You know, like, oh, maybe it's
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: a bad idea to let people who stabbed a man
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: forty four times and mutilated his body, maybe giving them immunity, yeah,
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: and just releasing them back out. It's disgusting. For what
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: is that really worth? Convicting a person who didn't actually
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: stab somebody?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: No, Ima justice, she got something out of it.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: No, Remember she later becomes a judge. Now, Marvin Lee
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: was granted immunity, and then a year later made her
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: discovered that he had lied and admitted the fact that
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: his brother Don Dell, was also a killer. Hmm, that's right.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: So she immediately, we think, you know, revoked his plea
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: deal for perjury.
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Right of course, right.
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: No, instead of revoking Marvin's deal for perjury, made her
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: doubled down by granting total immunity to Don Dell as well.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Wild two men admitted to committing capital murder and walked
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: away with zero prison time, specifically so they could testify
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: against the one person who wasn't physically holding a weapon.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: I how this still stands?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: It's gross That whole pirate just grosses me out.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: I mean this is in California, right, Yes, I think
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: we need to call Daddy Newsome and talk to him
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: about this.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: Pass that immunity like her name was Oprah, No shit, right,
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: you get immunity, you go and talk believable, Daddy Newsome. Unbelievable. Now.
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: Perhaps the most disturbing allegations involved how Mater reportedly recruited
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Luna. Now, according to Luna himself, and we know
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: he's not reliable, but whatever reliable enough for her to
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: make him her star witness. So you know what, I
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: guess we'll believe Jimmy on this one. Made her, made
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: her frame the case in racial terms to ensure his cooperation.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: She allegedly told him it would be racist to offer
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: a deal to Maureene, a white woman, while prosecuting the
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: two black guys and the Mexican. That's what Jimmy, when
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: allegedly said. And I think he's a lie. I wish
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: you don't believe anything he says. But Yathern Mader, you
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: made him your star witness, so when it comes to you,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna believe whatever he has to say. How does
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: that feel?
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: By her own reported words, she mocked the idea of
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Maureene joining her side, saying, hey, Maureen, us white people
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: will walk down the primrose path. That's not right, okay.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: She allegedly used this social justice narrative to convince Luna
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: that is only path to freedom was to help her
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: get the white woman.
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: Oh what, Oh couldn't be because you're a public, elected
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: official or anything. And by the way, we don't know,
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: we don't know more in sexual orientation, well she we
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: don't know, but.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: She met Stephen at a gay bar, so she was there.
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: But that's thirties because no kids, I like, because then
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: I don't have to get a hit on. Plus I
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: have my gaze that I hang out with, and I
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: feel safer in a gay bar than I do a
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: straight man.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Right, But to just immediately be like, oh, you know
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: what you guys like you don't even know anything about her,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: anything about her, But this sounds very political because you know,
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: when you are a DA it was there prosecuting a
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: death penalty case and it's the eighties and it's a
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: female and the victim was a gay man, and you
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: got to black guys and a Mexican guy, Like this
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: is just prime, Like you can be this this savior prosecutor,
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: that's gonna fix all of the racism and homophobia in
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: the world with one case, because why else would you
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: offer two guys who admitted to stabbing a man total
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: immunity if it wasn't because you were gonna benefit.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: From this total immunity, because I mean, not even like
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: six months.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Na, tell me how that is safe for your constituents.
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: Do tell, Mater, Do tell how that made the world
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: a safer place with two men who were willing to
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: do that. But okay, she's gonna tell us.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: Our reasonings a little bit now.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Mater's pursuit of the death penalty also required her to
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: paint Maureene as the corrupting influence over an otherwise non
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: violent Jimmy Luna when requesting, oh, there's a very loud train.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: Sorryhio train yelling at me it is aggressive. When requesting
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: a search warrant, Sorry, I don't know why it's so loud.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: Maybe it just wants to be on the show. Maybe
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: they're watching our show right now with.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: This high mister train guy.
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: Now, when requesting a search warrant, Mader told the judge
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: that the only time Luna had committed a serious act
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: of violence was because Maureen told him to. Maida reportedly
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: knew this was false. I don't know how she couldn't
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: have known this was false. I'd have no idea how
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: she could be like, oh, no, I didn't know that
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Luna had a long, long documented history of violence and
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: severe mental instability that predated his friendship with Marine. Information
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: that Meeter allegedly withheld from the court, like all the
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: other stuff we've just got, or that she didn't bother
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: to tell nobody. Okay, okay.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Under California law, a person cannot be convicted on the
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: word of an accomplice alone. There must be independent, corroborating evidence.
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we'll see how that goes.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Mader herself admitted her best evidence, the voluminous phone record,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: didn't actually prove anything on their own.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Nope.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Essentially, mad asked the jury to believe the word of
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: a man she herself called a liar and a cold,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: cold bloody killer, simply because he provided a narrative that
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: made those.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: Phone records look suspicious. Oh and he made.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Percent of the calls right now.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: After this, Catherine Mader eventually arose to become the first
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Inspector General of the LAPD, but her tenure there ended
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: in a force residnation that mirrors the criticisms of the
• 46:03
  Speaker 2: McDermot trial. That's right. The Police Commission's assessment of her
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: work was scathing. They accuse her of being unprofessional and untrustworthy,
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: stating she would start out with a conclusion and then
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: attempt to find facts to meet that conclusion, resulting in
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: misinterpretation of facts and ignoring effects and a reckless abuse
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: of innocent people's reputations. What no way I'm doing that, No,
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: because then she goes in is a judge for howeverintil
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: like twenty twenty or something. Now, the investigative style deciding
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: someone is guilty first and twisting the facts to fit
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: it is exactly what Marine's supporters claim happened in nineteen
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: eighty five. And listen, they make a very valid claim
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: in this like hey, do you know, we do hear
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of like, oh, they're definitely and is it
• 47:00
  Speaker 2: And you're like, okay, well that's like a few things.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: And honestly, that's one thing in the trial that doesn't
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: outweigh everything else.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasonabled out and then I got
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: a whole lot of bs for this one.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Yes, agreed.
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: Now I can talk about problem number.
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: Five, the biggest of the problem, the biggest.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Luna. So next we're going to peel back the
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: polished narrative of the state's key witness to the jury.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Luna was a co conspirator who had finally seen
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: the light, but to those who truly knew him, he
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: was a man living in a world of violent delusions
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: and habitual deception.
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: To understand why Maureen's defense claims she was victimized by Luna,
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: you have to understand the man behind the testimony.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: I am sure many of you are already like, how
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: did they even put Jimmy Luna on the state? Well,
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: you're going to be asking yourself that even more, Okay, unbelievable.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: It's the story of Jimmy Luna begins in a tragedy.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: Born in Los Angeles in nineteen fifty three to parents
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: struggling with heroin addiction, Abandoned as an infant, he was
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: shuttled to relatives who met his presence with resentment rather
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: than love.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: Now, his childhood was a gauntlet of emotional, physical, and
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: sexual abuse. Psychologists would later describe him as a man
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: consumed by rage and propelled by violence, a direct byproduct
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: of his early trauma. From a young age, Luna learned
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that truth was a liability all right. He became a
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: serial liar, often crafting one lie to cover another. Witnesses
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: recalled a disturbing pattern of him doing this. Luna would
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: often break into tears while lying, using his own emotional
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: distress as a shield against being caught. Oh my goodness,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: it's almost like somebody else I covered today.
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: I'm like it says.
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: So.
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: As he reached adulthood, this behavior didn't just persist, it escalated.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: His record was a revolving door of antisocial behavior, including
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a history of offenses that grew increasingly severe over time.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: He also had multiple suicide attempts, drug overdoses, and a
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: struggle with various diseases, including secondary syphilis.
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: Right, and if you don't know as syphilis does to
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: your body and your brain, it's not great. It's not great.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: But despite this volatile background, Luna was hired as an
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: orderly at the La County Hospital through an affirmative action program.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: It was here that he met Maureene, but he was
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: far from the reformed worker. The prosecution suggested like, literally,
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: nobody is gonna be like, oh he was right, said
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: no one.
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: On the job. His reputation was infamous. He was known
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: as an oddball and as a sadist, frequently abusive towards
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: both staff and the vulnerable patients in his care.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: His behavior was marked by a series of bizarre compulsions.
• 50:38
  Speaker 2: And remember everybody at the hospital, said Marines, like a
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: freaking sync in. He ran, I hear this jack wagon,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: can't even keep it together for like five minutes, and
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: it is hurting people now. Luna was, as we've said,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: a compulsive phone caller who didn't just make calls though yeah,
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: so performed in them. He would juggle different identities, affecting
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: various voices, frequently identing himself as a woman named Rita.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: He was also known to stalk individuals, and once admitted
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: to a psychotherapist that he felt uncontrollable rage, even confessing
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: to assaulting his girlfriends. So stuper stable star witness nailing
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: at Catherine.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Of like she's doing doing good. To truly understand why
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: many believe Maureen was victimized by her own compassion, we
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: have to look at the workplace where her relationship with
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Luna began. While Part one touched on their connection,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: the reality of Luna's tenure at La County Hospital paints
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: a picture of a man who is a ticking time bomb,
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: one that Maureen in her navite continue to try and
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: diffuse long after others had run for cover.
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: That's right. You remember how Catherine was like, oh, he
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: never did anything whatever. Now. During his early years at
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: the hospital, Jimmy Luna was seen as a peer, but
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: during his final two years that image for wrectured all
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Apart to his coworkers, he shifted from a troubled man
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: to a strange and scary person. Because Luna didn't just
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: have a poor attitude, he was a source of genuine
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: fear for the hospital staff.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Like I'm gonna just say, HR, staff at that hospital,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: you are not doing your job. Nurse Linda Spear was
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: forced to quit her job because of Luna after she
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: wrote wrote him up for being late. Luna reportedly physically
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: assaulted her and slashed her tires on two separate occasions. HR,
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: where are you? Other nurses, including Martha Espinoza, the woman
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Maureen was thinking of going to Saudi Arabia, with overheard
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Luna explicitly threatening to kill Linda Spear even ragged about
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: making crank phone calls to her home to keep her
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: in a state of terror. He is a true sadist.
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: He gets off. Oh my gosh. Now, while employed as
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: an orderly Luna was arrested four times.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Four.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: And Catherine Nader didn't know which arges, including assault with
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: a deadly weapon. He sounds like a perfect person.
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: To have a perfect star awaiting. It's just knocking out
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: of the park because you know, I'm definitely gonna believe
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Luna over the freaking hospital staff. You know, like,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: what what how are we putting this man on the
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: witness stand?
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, plus in part one, he made the comment
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: that she never Marie never specifically asked him to kill Stephen,
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: He just knew. But yet, in a previous conversation he
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: said they negotiated money.
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: Which is it. Oh wait, wait you guys, because we're
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: going to hear from Jimmy himself. Oh yes, Garrete right now.
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: After coworker Ara and Susan Merritt recalled the Luna's hustle
• 54:29
  Speaker 2: at the hospital was often criminal. He reportedly acted as
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: a lookout for drug addicted patients, assisting them in smuggling
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: illicit substances into the ward. He was also accused of
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: stealing a car belonging to another nurse, and was known
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: to throw objects and screen curses at the very patients
• 54:49
  Speaker 2: he was supposed to care for. As Luna's behavior became
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: more erratic, the hospital staff distanced themselves. He was a
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: constant financial drain, borrowing money from anyone who would listen,
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: and never paying it back. Eventually, Maureen McDermott was the
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: only person left that would have anything to do with him.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: And I don't blame anybody for being like, oh nope.
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: I don't blame Marine for having a bigger heart. But
• 55:24
  Speaker 1: while everyone else saw a violent oddball, Marine saw a
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: pathetic character who was perpetually broke. She didn't just lend
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: him money, she gave it to him, continuing to feel
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: sorry for him while he was being suspended for falsifying
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: patient vitals.
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: All many have.
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: Asked how a man with fore rest in a history
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: of assaulting staff could keep his job. I would love
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: to know that myself. Right at the trial, it was
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: suggested that his membership in the union and his status
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: in an Affirmative Action program made it nearly impossible to
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: fire him. I'm calling bs. Somebody just didn't want to
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: do the pipework.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: Probably probably now, Remember, nobody went to the hospital to
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: talk to anybody that worked there. Nobody did, not the
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: day or her lawyer or the defense attorney Ingberg. Nobody.
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: Nobody did. But a guy named that's his last name.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: His name is James Jimmy Luna. Yes, but not like
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: Luna Loved Good, our favorite Luna Loved Good. Now. It
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: wasn't until nineteen eighty five, all right, ooh, that's the
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: year of the murder that the hospital finally took action.
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: The catalyst wasn't just his abuse of patients, but the
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: discovery of a final lie. Luna has lied on his
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: initial employment application, denying he had any criminal record. And
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: that's what Catherine said too, because why she's wrong?
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: Did we not do background checks in nineteen eighty five?
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: I was five? No, I got it now. As Maureen
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: McDermott began finalizing her plans for the career move to
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Saudi Arabia, the stability of the man she had been
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: trying to help, Jimmy Luna, began to disintegrate. To Maureine,
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: the move was a financial opportunity for her, but to Luna,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: it was a profound personal crisis. All right, because he's
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: getting fired from his job. Let's see what else happens
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: to Luna before the murder.
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: Like talking months, the most attachment to Marine was far
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: deeper and more obsessive than a typical workplace friendship. He
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: reportedly told coworkers, including Martha Espinoza, that Mauraine would be
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: abandoning him if she left the country. He was recorded
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: asking who will take care of me if Mickey leaves? Oh?
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Hey, that doesn't sound like somebody that you're co conspiring
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: to murder your roommate with, does it. No, this sounds
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: a little alarming as somebody who is very unstable.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: That's alarming, you know.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: Now. In an attempt to keep her close, Luna begged
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: Maureen to let him care for her house and her
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: animals while she was away. Maureene refused for probably obvious reasons. Now,
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: despite her sympathy for him, she knew him too well.
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: She viewed him as a habitual liar, extremely unstable and
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: entirely unreliable, as we all should. She would give him
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: money for food, but she would not trust him with
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: her home, because no, I can't say I would have.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: By early nineteen eighty five, Luna was, as supporters described it,
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: skating on the thin edge of his own mind. His
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: behavior had become a kaleidoscope of bizarre performances. He would
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: frequently mimic voices and pretend to be other people. Nothing
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: alarming there. He would swing between self pitting bouts of
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: deep depression and manic feverish periods where he would spend
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: hours making compulsive phone calls.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Right now, Doctor Philip Merritt, a physician probably way more
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: credible than this guy who worked with both Maureene and Luna,
• 59:39
  Speaker 2: was convinced that Luna was actively psychotic. He described him
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: as twisted, both in his allogical thinking and in his
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: threatening manner. I mean that holds some weight, yeah.
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: Doctor Merritt proposed a theory that challenges the prosecution's entire motive.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 1: He believed Luna didn't kill Stephen because Maureen hired him,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: but because he had discovered Maureen's mortgage insurance policy.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: It's along my theory as well, that's one of the
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: agree well what points online as well? Now in Luna's
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: a logical mind. Mara argued, he may have believed that
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 2: if the roommate was dead, Maureen would come into a
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: windfall of money, money that he her friend could continue
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: to borrow indefinitely. Luna quote, Luna was crazy enough to
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: do something like that. Meret noted, I mean I would
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: say yes. I would say yes.
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: The timing of the murder aligns perfectly with the collapse
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: in Luna's personal life. Okay.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: A few weeks.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Before the killing, Luna was evicted from his apartment following
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: incidents of property damage and violence towards his neighbors. A
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: great job person to trust.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Right, lost his job, lost his place to live, His
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: bestie is going to Saudi Arabia, his meal ticket, he's leaving.
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: What that that can't be motive?
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: Right, No, what do you know, Almon, That can't be
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: that makes he reached books again, that's crazy and that's crazy.
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: Now, in a state of homelessness and rage, he reached
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 2: out to one person who always said yes. He asked
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: Marene for money for the first time. Facing her own
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: financial pressures and her upcoming move, She told him she
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: couldn't help him. So he hears, well, I don't have
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: the money. Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Even more telling is Luna's behavior immediately after the crime.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: Shortly after Stephen Aldridge was murdered, Luna called Marine again
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: to ask for a loan. Is what to be exhausted
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: and shocked from the attack on her home. Maureene's response
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: was one of disbelief like most of us, where she said,
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: You've got to be kidding after what I'm going through. Mmmm, girl,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: that's much nicer than what I was said right now.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: One of the most suspicious aspects of Jimmy Luna's role
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: is the timing of his testimony. Now, he was arrested
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 2: shortly after the murder in nineteen eighty five. I think
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: it was August July or August. Luna was held for
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: seventy two hours. Oh yeah, that's right. I forgot. He
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: was initially arrested like right off a week later, and
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: then they let him go for seventy two hours and
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: released after a flat denial of involvement. He was like,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with this. Now. Even when
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: he was arrested again in July of that year, he
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: remained silent. He didn't surprisingly for the first time in
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: his life. It sounds like he didn't talk about anything,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: so that's interest.
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: It wasn't until July twelfth, nineteen eighty nine, more than
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: four years later and one month before Mariene's trial, that
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Luna finally implicated Maureene facing the death penalty himself. Luna
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: entered a plea deal for first degree murder. His confession
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: essentially amounted to she made me do it.
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: The circumstances of his initial debriefing raises serious questions about
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: the reliability of his words, because if you're not questioning
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: everything he says by now, well, I don't tell you
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: are very okay anyway. Now, Prosecutor Catherine Mader and Detective
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Arnold questioned Luna when he had not slept in over
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: twenty four hours. The best time, of course, said question.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: It's best time to talk to me, right, prosecutor who
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 2: has a lot to gain? And detective no notes over here,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: so I'm sure this goes well for Marine.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 1: During this debriefing, Luna spoke about Marine not as a
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: co conspirator, but as a lifeline. He claimed he leaned
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: on her as a mother image or sister image because
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: he had been abandoned his whole life, made her allegedly
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: made it clear that to secure his deal, Maureene had
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: to be the mastermind.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: Right, that whole mother image sister image thing, that's just
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: another motive for him, Like, I can't have that person
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: abandon me again. I got to do something. A traum
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: a response makes way more since than a stupid life
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: insurance policy that she natn need. When asked why a
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 2: compassionate nurse would suddenly order a brutal execution, Luna's answers were,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 2: in the words of the defense, absurd and crazy. Yes,
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: Luna offered a rotating list of reasons why Maureen wanted
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: her roommate dead.
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: He claimed Mareene resented Stephen for hollering at her dogs.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: That's not a reason to kilse Mike.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: Then he claims she needed the money to send to
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: her mother, and then he said she was angry because
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: Stephen was trying to fix up the house to sell it. Hmm.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: I wonder how many of those things are actually what
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: she said or how he interprets.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: It.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Does not mean that that's what she did, you know,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Like she could be like, oh, like I don't have
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 2: money to send to my mom this week, you know,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: or whatever.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: And I hated that Stephen yell's at my dog sometimes.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: Right, it doesn't mean anything, you know. So now the
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: financial details of the contract were just as inconsistent. In
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: one version of his story, Luna claimed Marene promised him
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars from the insurance payout, which no way, buddy,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: I mean no way, right, you the most no way,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: no way. In another, the amount jumped to seventy five
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 2: thousand dollars because yes, he is that well of a
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: hired killer.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: She needed it to pay for her house. But she's
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: willing to give it all.
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: Away right now. On the witness stand, though, he struggled
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: to maintain a consistent narrative, jumping from story to story
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 2: as he was pressed by defense attorneys. So and remember
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 2: they crossed him for what was it like seven or
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: eight days he was on cross man. I wish we
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: could have watched that. I thought that was wild.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: Perhaps most telling will is Luna's testimony regarding the homosexual
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: murder staging. He claimed Marene wanted it to look that
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: way so the police wouldn't investigate. However, when the defense
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: asked Luna to explain the actual differences between a homosexual
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: murder and a heterosexual murder, the key witness, the man
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: who supposedly planned the staging, simply said he didn't know right. Ultimately,
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: Jimmy Luna testified that he never asked her why she
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: wanted Stephen dead because he just knew.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 2: As when the gun reader, yes, probably probably. Now. When
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: Marie McDermott's appellate Council began digging into her case, they
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: discovered a gaping hole in the legal proceedings. Neither the
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: prosecution nor the defense had ever subjected their star witness,
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 2: Jimmy freakin' Luni, to a formal psychiatric evaluation, which is
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 2: what I mean. I know why the state didn't because
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: but why didn't the defense? Well, because he is busy,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: fucking off doing whatever he's going to do. He didn't
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: have time. Remember he's a busy man. But now buckle up,
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: you guys, for who's about to enter this story?
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Yes please. They brought in the world famous, also very
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: controversial in the true crime world, doctor Dorothy now Lewis.
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 2: Ah ha, you guys, specializes in the roots of violent behavior.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: What she found was a psychological profile so fractured that
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: it threatened to invalidate the entire trial.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, broken clocks right twice.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm scary to say you can.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I expect all the emoji reactions to that.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: Oh oh if you don't know, well, she's she's a
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: She h appeared what was the latest trial? She appeared
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: in thea Letitia Stouk trial. She has a whole documentary
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: on HBO. I forget what it's called. She's a little
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: googoo bananas. She's very into uh, disassociative identities disorder and
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: multiple personalities, which is fine, but she's she's got immersed
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: in it that I yeah, Like, I don't, I don't.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: I feel like she's very biased because of how much
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: she's immersed in it. She's something, But I will say,
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: in this instance, I think she's probably right. I think
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: she's probably right about right now. Doctor Lewis determined that
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: Jimmy Luna suffered from a severe disassociative psychotic disorder. According
• 1:09:59
  Speaker 2: to her findings, Luna wasn't just a liar. He was
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: a man who lived in a state where his mind
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: literally detached from reality. And I mean, I don't need
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: to be a psychiatrist to figure that out.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: I's excited. I don't. Yeah. Doctor Lewis noted that one
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: almost never sees this kind of mental illness without a
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: history of extraordinary physical and sexual abuse. Luna's childhood, marked
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: by heroin addicted parents and brutal relatives, had created a
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: mind capable of total disassociation.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: Perhaps the most shocking was a discovery that Luna had
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: expressed intentions of castrating a man long before he ever
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 2: met Stephen Eldridge. Oh so Marine, just say hey, don't forget.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Marine didn't come up with it.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: What That's not what Catherine Mader wants us to believe.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: This was not a staging idea suggested by Maureene. I
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 2: keep getting ahead of myself. It was a pre existing
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 2: violent obsession living inside Luna's own psyche.
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: Doctor Lewis concluded that at the time of the murder,
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: Luna was becoming increasingly psychotic and out of touch with reality.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 2: You don't say I remember to yes, syphilis.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: Captain obvious right? I know in this state his interactions
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: with Maureene were filtered through a delusional lens.
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: Now. She believed that Luna could have easily misinterpreted a
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: casual remark from Maureene, perhaps to complain about a roommate
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 2: or a dog, as a direct command to kill, which
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: I very much have come to that conclusion as well.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: That's exactly what I think has happened here. Or even
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: more simply, he may have acted entirely on his own
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: fantasies and then tro fitted Maureene into the story to
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: save himself once he was caught. Also possible this even
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: mattress Luna's own admission at trial when he testified that
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: Maureen never actually asked him to kill Stephen, but that
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: he just knew it was what she wanted. Also, I
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: think he was jealous and envious of Stephen.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: I think he was too, because she was letting him
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: in the house, he let her with the house, and
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: by I agree.
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: I think he very much was envious and jealous of him,
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: that he had everything that he didn't have. And that's
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: why it was so brutally and unnecessary violent in their
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: killing of Stephen. Because Stephen was a very good looking guy,
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 2: he had it together, he was young, he was everything
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: that Jimmy Luna wasn't.
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: In her report, doctor Lewis did not just analyze Luna.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: She analyzed the justice system that allowed him to testify.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: Her words were an indictment of both the prosecution or
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: an indictment of both the prosecution and Maureene's defense. Given
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: Jimmy lunis history of bizarre behaviors, it is difficult to
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: understand why the prosecution in this case failed to have
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: him evaluated psychiatrically prior to accepting his account of the murder.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: I have the same question, Doctor Lewis. We agreed for once.
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: Just want to put that on the record. We agreed
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: today once.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: I mean, as they say, a broken clock RTE twice
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 2: a day right now. Doctor Lewis called Joe Ingber's failure
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: to demand an evaluation quote more incomprehensible still, because have
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: the defense done their job, they would have uncovered a
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 2: history of extreme abuse, disassociative states, and psychotic misperceptions and
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: pre existing fantasies of murder in cash. Had this condition
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: been recognized, doctor Lewis stated, his credibility as a witness
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: would have been destroyed. You know, I think we didn't
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 2: even need all that to destroy it in my opinion,
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: but definitely would have helped.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Oh, lady and Gray just caught up.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, face, yes, yes that one that one.
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: Doctor Lewis directed her sharpest criticism at Catherine Mader. She
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: argued that a public prosecutor's duty is to seek the truth.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: That's your job. Yet Mader chose to ignore Luna's obvious instability. Instead,
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: she offered a delusional man an opportunity to save his
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: life by helping her put a white woman on death row.
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: MM agreed. Now, Doctor Lewis concluded that Mader committed griev
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 2: this misconduct by resting her case on a delusional account.
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 2: Her professional opinion was clear, had an evaluation been obtained,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Luna would have been excluded from testifying as a witness entirely.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: She is absolutely right. That is exactly what would have happened.
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 1: This revelation changes the entire framework of this case. It
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: suggests that the contract between the nurse and the hitman
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: never existed. Instead, it was a collision between a woman
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 1: who was too generous and a man whose mind was
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: a mind field of violent delusions.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, where we at We're getting ready to
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: go into in their own words, that's right, we're gonna
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: hear from them. But where how are you guys feeling
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 2: right at this moment? Are you picking your jaws up
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: off the floor? Like? What?
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 1: How? How? I mean I know it was the eighties.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 1: I know the eighties were crazy time in California. How
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: is this woman still in prison?
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean whether she did it or not doesn't
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: even matter. It doesn't even matter.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: This is egregious and there's no evidence that she did it. No,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: in this circumstantial is lot. Oh it's this is what
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: scares people about our justice system.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: I mean, as I should you know, do I think
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: we've gotten a little better over the years. Okay, I
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 2: can tell you right now there's no way Jimmy Luna
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: would take the stand today as a start witness for anybody,
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 2: for anybody, never happening, you know, And that's.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: Not in the other two have gotten off yet.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 2: Right, And that's not therown shade. Oh he because he
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: was mentally ill or whatever. No, there is way more
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: to a Jimmy than that. There's le ill. People can
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: be very honest on the stand. The problem is that
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 2: he's not. The problem is that he's a pathological liar,
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 2: so and violent. Not everybody is like that, So they
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 2: would never put him on there. No, this is not justice.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: And again this is a death penalty case, right like,
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: all right, you guys, So to close out our investigation
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: into the case of Marie McDermott. We are going to
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: look at the raw, unfiltered words of the two people
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 2: at the center of this tragedy. That's right. In a
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: case where every piece of evidence feels like it's been
• 1:17:31
  Speaker 2: filtered through a lens of bias or immunity, deals letters
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: can be a window into the soul. They capture thoughts
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: in real time, away from the coaching of lawyers or
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: the pressure of a witness stand.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: Psychologists often say that in high stakes lies, the lawyer
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: will eventually reveal themselves through the details they choose to
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: include and the ones they omit. One of these people
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: is a murderer who traded a life for a deal.
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: The other is either a cold blooded sociopath who had
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 1: maintained a soft touch mask for forty years, or a
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: woman who has been buried alive by a system that
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: was way too clumsy to see the truth. They weren't clumsy,
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: they were, Yeah, they were.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: Now. It's not often that we get to hear from
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: the killers themselves. So I found this blog post from
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: twenty twelve from author kh Mzek who She's a real person,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: who claimed as she was writing a book about this
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: case and had letters from Jimmy Luna and I was like,
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: oh what, yes, so I have them here for you.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: And I'm not sure when this was written. I didn't
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: have a date on it. But here are some excerpts
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: from a letter he allegedly wrote many years after the trial,
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 2: talking about himself and sharing his thoughts about the murder
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: and what happened that she shared publicly. So we're gonna
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: read the whole thing, but we will break it down
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: together with all of our thoughts, because there is a
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: lot to unpack here, a lot. So it's a lot.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: Let me see if I can put on my psychotic mind.
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: I don't feel good most of the time. I feel
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: like someone flushed me down the toilet. I look like
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 1: it too. I used to look not that bad. I
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 1: get the shakes and I can't stop. I sweat a lot.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 1: I'm suffering, and I'm alone, and that's all I've ever been.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: I wish I could have known something different. I used
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 1: to see kids getting out of mini vans and going
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: to the market with their moms, and I tried to
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 1: imagine what that much be like. Why couldn't that be me?
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: Why should I deserve any less? It's an evil world,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: and you can't tell me otherwise. There isn't a single
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: person alive right now or ever. They could give a
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 1: good reason why some people suffer so much when others don't.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: It's called life, Jimmy. Unfortunately.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, the shittheads who stepped on the faces of
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: the rest of us in order to get ahead. They're
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: the ones who make up stupid reasons like karma and such,
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: and all the poor people just say oh okay, because
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 1: they feel dirty and unworthy, overused and worn to death,
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: just like me. That's why I can say that. I
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 1: don't really think I had a choice. I was pushed
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: in a corner.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: I was desperate. Well, I don't know why my slide
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: shoe went out, but whatever, we don't have time for it.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: It's fine, it's fine. We'll just read it to you.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: The detective interviewed me after it happened. I don't remember
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: his name. I don't even remember what he looked like.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: He wasn't a nice person. He didn't care about me.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: He didn't understand my problems. I tried to explain. I
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: thought if I explained, he might have some sympathy, because
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: he acted sympathetic but it was just a trap. He
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: didn't play fair, and I don't think they should be
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: able to do that to a person like me, who's
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: so trusting. You got he literally killed a man, all right,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: And he was like, he's I don't think he cares
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: about me? What about me? He's so self absorbed. They
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: made me sit in a bare room with bright lighting.
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 2: I'm sensitive to light and atmosphere. It made me nervous
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: to be there. I would say, so, you literally just
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: killed somebody, so probably, so talk to us. Explain why
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: you did it, said the detective, sounding almost nice. Must
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: have some college degree in being able to talk like that.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but okay, I wanted to
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 2: open up. I liked that he was interested, as if
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: he had all the time in the world to listen.
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: Never once did he look at his watch, and he
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: wasn't antsy or rude. So I really did open up,
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: and it felt good. I didn't mind talking. I didn't
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: have anything to hide. I wanted him to understand to me,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: so he just wants somebody to listen to him. Don't
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 2: worry about the man, the innocent man I just murdered. Okay,
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 2: but I'm going to need you to just listen to
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: me and my problems. Okay, great, thanks, I told him
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 2: just start off in the right place.
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: First. I want to say that I am a very
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: sensitive person. I cry easy. I'm very emotional. I don't
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 1: cry for sympathy for somebody to feel sorry for me.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: I cry because I hurt inside and constantly, each and
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: every day that goes by, I hurt. Okay, I got that,
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: said the detective. I felt sort of okay with his response.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: It wasn't exactly what I wanted, but close enough, and
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 1: I felt like if I continued and explained everything by
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: the end.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: He would feel really sorry for me, as we all
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: as well. He should.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 1: You know, the words just came out first to him,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: and then there was this therapist lady who talked to me.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: I don't really remember what I said to her. It's
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: all jumbled together in my conversation with the detective. I
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 1: guess because that's the first thing that happened, where it
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: all started, where the words first came out of me,
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 1: and then it got easier and easier to talk.
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 2: You don't know how it feels to be so desperate.
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 2: It's like all your life you try to do right.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: You try to make the best of the situation, but
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 2: nothing ever works out. Oh pity party. So you try
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 2: again and you keep a smile on your face, but
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. I can't tell you how many times
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 2: I got raped by my male relatives when I was
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: a kid. I was small. It wasn't my fault. I
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 2: couldn't defend myself. I had to go down on my
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: older cousin. Oh sorry, guys, this is part's a little
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: graphic here. Do you think a person can turn out
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 2: normal after that? I mean, do you really, Jimmy. It's
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 2: not great, but yes, people can have normal lives after that.
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 2: My dad tried to kill me by hanging me from
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: a tree one day. He got mad. I don't know
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: why he got mad. How mad can a dad get
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 2: to do something like that? How bad can a kid be?
• 1:25:20
  Speaker 2: He got a rope and put it around my neck
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: and strung me up and left me there. The rope
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: didn't hold, and that was lucky because he meant it.
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 2: He meant it too. Can you imagine how my life
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 2: was after that? You see your dad that night and
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: he's drinking a beer and no one says nothing, when
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 2: a few hours before he hanged you from a tree.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: I tell myself he didn't mean it, and it was
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 2: just a joke that went bad, but he did mean it. Now,
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: you guys, we also don't know how much of this
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: is true. It's true, awful, it's awful. It's absolutely horrific awful,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 2: And I do think that there is a lot of
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 2: truth to it.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: I do think he was abused.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: Agreed, but just again, he's not a reliable narrator, so
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 2: but I do think that he definitely did not have
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: a very good agreed childhood.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: Agreed. My entire childhood, all I ever felt was fear.
• 1:26:20
  Speaker 1: I never knew what it was like to lie down
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 1: at night and go to sleep, just close my eyes
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 1: and sleep. I had to tell myself all kinds of
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 1: stories to get me through each day so I could
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 1: pretend it was someone else and that these things weren't
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: happening to me. Let me ask you, why didn't my
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: dad ever go to jail? Why didn't my older relatives
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: get punished? Nobody made sure I was safe, Nobody cared.
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 1: I asked the detective that question, or maybe I didn't,
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 1: I don't remember, But the thing is I wanted an answer,
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: and nobody ever gave it to me. How can I
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 1: get you to understand somebody like me who's been treated
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 1: like less than an animal since the day I was born,
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 1: just abused and used and stuffed in the garbage, and
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 1: then every time I tried to climb out, just stuffed
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 1: back in again. Well, even if somebody like me tries
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: over and over, it's like you're daring people to hurt you,
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: putting it in their face, like you're saying, see, look
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 1: at me. I'm not giving up. I want to better myself.
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: I can stand up tall just like you. I can
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 1: have a job, I can have an apartment, pay my taxes,
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 1: I can be a normal human being.
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, sorry, I was trying to do that. And I
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 2: did get a job, and I did work hard. That
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: was a big achievement for me. But when they all
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: turned against me because of my problems, I'm not denying it.
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 2: I do have problems, but I tried. That's the point
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 2: I'm making. I always kept trying until there was no
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: way for me to try anymore. Which I this is
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: the point where I'm like, I don't care, all right, Like, sorry, buddy,
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: but I don't know, because you're about to do some
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: truly horrible things. Now me daring to do that, daring
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: to try and put it in their faces, means they
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: can laugh and sneer and think it's okay to kick
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: me in the teeth. It's easy for them to kick
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: me in the teeth. You know they can do it,
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 2: and nobody even blinks. Nobody treats them like they committed
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 2: a crime by what they did to me. They don't
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: get in trouble. They can punch the smile right off
• 1:29:03
  Speaker 2: my already bruised and bleeding face, making it more bruised,
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: more bleeding, swollen, infected. So it's like I have a
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: big sign on myself saying abuse me. But then forget
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: about it. If I try to turn around and hurt
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: someone else in order to get ahead of the game,
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 2: Oh no, not allowed. I get punished. I mean, you
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: get us there. And then it's like ooh no, no, Jenny,
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: because see the problem is is one, well, you probably
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: shouldn't kill anybody, but you took it down on innocent people.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: It had nothing to do with your business, all right,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: you are not the same right quote, Well you didn't
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: just hurt him, you killed him. The detective said to me,
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: like a slap, and I didn't really think it was
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: nice of him to do that. He wasn't getting it
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: at all. Was he dense? Oh that's right from Jimmy.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: How rude of him? Rude of him?
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 1: Not that I can't say that he was right in
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 1: a certain kind of way. And I thought I was
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: being very reasonable and honest to admit it when I
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 1: said true. But that's what I'm trying to explain about
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 1: being pushed. It's not like one day you just decide
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 1: to kill someone. You get pushed there, and anyway, it's
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: not like it was my idea. You know.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: Whose idea, then asked the detective.
• 1:30:41
  Speaker 1: I think I rolled my eyes at that point because
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: it was pretty obvious where he was leading with that one.
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: I wasn't an idiot, not like him. Okay, they made
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: it obvious that they what they wanted to hear. And sure,
• 1:31:00
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to say anything except the truth, right,
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: and that's what I did. I don't want to end
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: up strapped to that table, all those people looking at
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 1: me through the glass, not to mention the years I'd
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: have to live in isolation before it happened. I don't
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 1: do well cooped up. I wasn't doing while sitting in
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 1: that interrogation room. Still, I didn't want to come out
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: right out and say it plain, so I talked.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: About other things. Right, we don't want to talk about
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 2: the bad things i'd done. Let's talk about other things,
• 1:31:37
  Speaker 2: please and thank you. Now, Micky and me had a
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 2: special relationship. She cared about me when nobody else did.
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: She was the only one. And then, hmm, I.
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: Just got an urgent message that Eric Dane passed away,
• 1:31:55
  Speaker 1: mixed steamy, what I'm sorry from Grayson Eric Dane? Sorry,
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: Okay. I was like, what, Oh that's sad. Oh wasn't
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: he Round Car movie? Was he in that? I kind
• 1:32:16
  Speaker 2: of know it was a lot of things. Sorry, okay.
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: And then even with her, I wasn't sure anymore she
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 2: was going to leave me, leave me just like kick
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: me to the curb. I don't think she really wanted to.
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: I think she thought she had to in order to
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: make more money. She was desperate, just like me. We
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: had a lot in common. Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: we understood each other. I wanted to help her. She'd
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: done a lot to help me, and I was willing
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: to make a sacrifice for her sake, so she wouldn't
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 2: have to leave. I mean, who'd want to go and
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 2: be a nurse in Saudia Arabia? What woman in her
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 2: right mind would want to do that. They kill queers
• 1:33:02
  Speaker 2: like me and her in that place. And I think
• 1:33:05
  Speaker 2: they kill women even if they're straight, just like for fun.
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 2: Don't they make them cover their entire bodies, treat themselves
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: like slaves? What if she never came back? Well, look
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: at him being so thoughtful. Obviously she wasn't thinking right.
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: When you're desperate, you don't think right. I know what
• 1:33:28
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about. Oh, I'm sure you do. So I
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: had to do something to stop her from going. Huh,
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 2: that's right. Words. I had to do something to stop
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: her from going because she's not in her right mind. Guys,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 2: I had to keep her here for her sake and
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: mine and whatever tears she's crying now, Trust me, she
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: was happy when I did it. So you're saying she
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: told you to do it. The detective said, you see
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 2: that detective newest job. It wasn't going to let me
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 2: out of here until I said it. I rolled my
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: eyes some more. Eye rolling is a very good thing
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: to do when you want to make a certain kind
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 2: of impression.
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: Or we just do it because of you.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 2: Like right there, in that whole, just right there, He
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: just said, I don't know why she went. She's out
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: of her mind for wanting to go see the world
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: and all of that, and I can't I can't have that. Okay,
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 2: she put.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: Her blessing on it. It was her idea. Why would
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: I think up something like that. I said it so
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 1: I could get back to what mattered. Whatever people tell you,
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 1: I'm not a bad person. I had a bad life.
• 1:34:56
  Speaker 1: Do you get the difference? If you had my life,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 1: you'd be one sick motherfucker too. You'd have a lot
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 1: of anger. You'd need someone to help you, take care
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 1: of you and not throw you out on the street.
• 1:35:12
  Speaker 1: Micky cared about me when nobody else did, so in return,
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 1: I did something for her that should.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 2: Never do for herself.
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: Hmm. I messed it up, I know that, And Okay,
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't have been so easily convinced to do it
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 1: in the first place, But my heart was right. All
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 1: I wanted was for Mickey to be safe and secure.
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 1: If she had that insurance money, she'd be okay and
• 1:35:46
  Speaker 1: not worried anymore. I'd bet she'd let me move in. Oh,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: been her housemate instead of that prick. I never trusted
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: that piece of shit. She complained how he yelled at
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: her dogs. I mean, who yelled a dog for what?
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 1: And people call me bad? I don't yell at dogs.
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: Literally saying that season is an awful human could but
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: he murdered him. And look at how he's still talking
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: about him years later, no remorse, none, whatsoever.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he wanted her to sell her house. I bet
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: if she'd gone to Saudi Arabia, he had has sold
• 1:36:33
  Speaker 1: the house right out from under her. I bet when
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: she came back, if she ever did and wasn't killed
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: over there, she'd have had nothing. Excuse me, she would
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: have had nothing.
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 2: He'd have taken it all. And she was such a
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: puss chover. Oh how can a pushover be a mastermind.
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: She wouldn't have done anything to punish him. That's how
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: I know she didn't see it coming. She didn't see
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: what he was planning right under her nose. I know
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: about those things. I know about backstabbers, but Mickey was
• 1:37:11
  Speaker 1: so trusting. She only liked to think good of people.
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: It doesn't sound to me like Micky tried to convince
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: you to do anything. You just literally was like, oh,
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 2: she's a pushover. I push her over. She'd never say
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: or do anything to hurt anybody. We feel a little
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: Mickey and like, literally, this is just him confessing to
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: all of this.
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 1: And she said, yeah.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 2: I feel justified about what I did. Mm hmmm, yeah, guys,
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 2: justified that he killed an innocent man. I know it
• 1:37:46
  Speaker 2: was wrong, but I think God will forgive me. I
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: think God understands. I think when I stand before God,
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: I won't even have to defend myself. I won't have
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: to tell my side of this story. He knows all
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: that stuff. I bet we're all going to be surprised
• 1:38:04
  Speaker 2: when we find out who's in heaven and who's in Hell.
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 2: I was just trying to fix an impossible situation. Oh
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 2: you're trying to fix something. Oh wow, Not that there
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: was a contract or anything like. Okay, okay, okay. I
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: was trying to do some good and okay, maybe that's
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: a stretch, maybe hard for people to accept, but there
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: it is. In my screwed up mind, that's how I
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: saw it. I was trying to do some good. Afterwards,
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 2: when I got caught and you told me that I did.
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: I couldn't believe it. Anyone who'd stabbed someone forty four
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: times must be a maniac. And then I cut off
• 1:38:52
  Speaker 2: his penis. I don't remember that. I thought I stabbed
• 1:38:57
  Speaker 2: him like seven times or so. I got forty four
• 1:39:01
  Speaker 2: and the penis thing come on. And then I took
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: the penis to my aunt's house and flushed it down
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 2: the toilet. I buried the knife blade by the clothesline.
• 1:39:13
  Speaker 2: That's insane, not to mention stupid, he's saying, I don't
• 1:39:19
  Speaker 2: even remember doing any of that. I only stabbed him
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: seven times, Guys, the.
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 1: Seven It's not like it went crazy in scepting forty something.
• 1:39:27
  Speaker 2: No, but I was drunk. So again, let's put the
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: responsibility off to something else other than yourself, Jimmy, I
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 2: had to get drunk in order to do what I did.
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 2: I can't remember carrying the penis all the way back
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 2: home with me. Why'd I do that? Was it in
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: my pocket in a plastic bag? My aunt can't be
• 1:39:52
  Speaker 2: happy about that. No, every time she sits on the toilet,
• 1:39:58
  Speaker 2: I bet she thinks about that. Peace is swirling around
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: and around and then down it goes very descriptive.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: Jimmy, that is a bit much, Jimmy.
• 1:40:11
  Speaker 2: Oh the rain is sorry is yes, mister, mixte me.
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: What if it got stuck? What if the toilet overflowed
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 2: and it's spilled onto the floor and she has to
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: sit there and think about it. That's fucked up, yeah, Jimmy.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: Oh shit, it's real fucked up, Jimmy. That's why you're here.
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 2: But anyway, my point is you don't need to have
• 1:40:34
  Speaker 2: a fancy psychiatry degree to know that somebody who does
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: something like that is seriously out of his fucking mind.
• 1:40:43
  Speaker 2: We know, sir. That's the whole point.
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 1: That's that's why we're here, Savage. I can always count
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: on you for a giggle. Always, thank you.
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: Okay, that was so much like just in that hole
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 2: and how that is not being you?
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmm, Okay, Okay, we're gonna continue. Mickey was a mastermind.
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 1: I couldn't have thought up all of those things, like
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 1: Dwyane Bell. Why would I have knifed him like that?
• 1:41:22
  Speaker 1: What reason would I had if she hadn't.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 2: Told me to do it? So you just listed a
• 1:41:28
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of dud.
• 1:41:31
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I get confused and I wonder if I remember
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: things right. Sometimes I think maybe I didn't tell the
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: detectives the story in the right way, but that's just
• 1:41:46
  Speaker 1: because I'm actually a very honest person who goes to
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: the extreme to make sure I am continually second guessing myself.
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, that's how that works.
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 1: Koudlaid if I did bad things? Oh wait, sorry, I
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: did bad things. I know I sliced up Dwayne Bell,
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 1: or at least that's what I told the police, didn't
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: I or did they tell me that I did it?
• 1:42:17
  Speaker 1: And I said, okay, you see I can't remember.
• 1:42:21
  Speaker 2: Now. Do you think what I did was wrong?
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure who asked me that, the detective or
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: the therapist, probably.
• 1:42:34
  Speaker 2: The therapist, probably everybody we're asking. I keep telling you
• 1:42:42
  Speaker 2: it might have been a bad thing, but I did
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 2: it for a good reason. So it's fine, guys, it's fine.
• 1:42:49
  Speaker 2: It's a good reason. I agree that a maniac did
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: those things, but that's not me. I wish, for once
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: people would look inside and see who I really am,
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: A sensitive, caring person who's in terrible pain. I agree
• 1:43:08
  Speaker 2: you probably are in pain, but again, I'm like all
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 2: the other poor, abused and powerless people. I never stood
• 1:43:20
  Speaker 2: a chance, and now I'm dying of aids in prison.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: A demon with sharp teeth somehow got inside of me,
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: and he's tearing apart my liver and my skin. I
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: saved my skin, and now the demon's eating it. Which
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 2: is dark to say that.
• 1:43:41
  Speaker 1: I will say he does have some mental issues and
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 1: such very sickless.
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's eating his brain inside out. This isn't
• 1:43:51
  Speaker 2: how my life was supposed to be. I was a
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 2: little boy once. I had hopes and dreams, just like
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: anyone else. I know that I was happy, really when
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: I was sitting up in that tree and looking down
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: on the world, dreaming of where I go, the things
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 2: I do. But that was before I got hung from it,
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 2: and ever since, hard as I try, I can't remember
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 2: the happiness. The world looked different after that, and I
• 1:44:18
  Speaker 2: got scared to climb above it. I cry for that
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: little boy, filled with so much love. I love flowers,
• 1:44:26
  Speaker 2: I loved animals. The fuckers who suck the life out
• 1:44:30
  Speaker 2: of me are the maniacs, not me. This isn't how
• 1:44:33
  Speaker 2: my life was supposed to be. It's just not fair.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 2: M You know, to a certain degree it's not fair.
• 1:44:42
  Speaker 1: But but you make conscious decisions and choices.
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 2: Never wanting to take responsibility for anything, or remorse or anything.
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: When I finished talking, I felt like I'd really done
• 1:44:57
  Speaker 1: my best. I told my story with a lot of emotion,
• 1:45:02
  Speaker 1: with real feelings, not cold hearted, because that's not how
• 1:45:06
  Speaker 1: I am.
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, the detective got up and left.
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: That was it. He left me there. I thought i'd
• 1:45:15
  Speaker 1: felt better after all that talking, but I just felt empty,
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: like he had used me for what he wanted like
• 1:45:25
  Speaker 1: everybody did, and then forgot about me. He was done,
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: he went home after a long day.
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 2: I came here, like, look at how he quickly attached
• 1:45:37
  Speaker 2: to himself to this detective, and I created like this
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 2: romanticized interaction between the two of them.
• 1:45:44
  Speaker 1: Say, he did not have issues.
• 1:45:46
  Speaker 2: He had issues that like didn't really exist. And now
• 1:45:49
  Speaker 2: he's like, how dare you abandon me? So imagine what
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 2: it must have been like when yeah, it'd be a
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 2: thousand times more horrific for him, made.
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: Her ev.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: Don't I'll continue.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: I'm weak. Pain is my world. I try to look
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: back and think of something good to remember, something sweet
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: to put on my tongue, to make my suffering not
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: so bad, But nothing's there. I wish I could think
• 1:46:26
  Speaker 1: of climbing that tree without hanging from it, but that's impossible.
• 1:46:38
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. I lie in the dark, sweating, panting and
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: agony of nightmares crawling all over me, and I say why.
• 1:46:48
  Speaker 2: There's no answer that comes to mind, just silence and
• 1:46:51
  Speaker 2: another needle. Soon I'll be dead and Mickey will still
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: be alive. She's the one sentenced to death and I'm
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 2: the one dying. How about that They put her there,
• 1:47:05
  Speaker 2: not me. I'm telling you they're the real maniacs. Those
• 1:47:10
  Speaker 2: two face bastards. I mean, not wrong, but also not wrong.
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 2: Get it as well. It doesn't matter in the end, though,
• 1:47:18
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to stay sorry for the part I played.
• 1:47:22
  Speaker 2: I didn't do anything that bad. I mean it was bad,
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 2: but I explained all that right. Look at me. Nobody
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 2: escapes death row. We all get sentenced one way or another.
• 1:47:37
  Speaker 2: I don't deserve it anymore than you do. And that, friends,
• 1:47:43
  Speaker 2: are the words of Jimmy freaking Luna. Okay, now what
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 2: hell man you've heard from him? Those were apparently his words.
• 1:47:55
  Speaker 2: He ended up dying in present. I don't know when
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: we really try to find anything him, Marvin Donna canna
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: find shit about these people anywhere, so he no longer
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: is is around, but you know the way that he
• 1:48:12
  Speaker 2: even tries to manipulate the reader. Look at this sad
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 2: sad childhood, and boy I was.
• 1:48:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, and he had a bad childhood. I mean,
• 1:48:22
  Speaker 1: if a fraction of that is true, yeah, I get it,
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 1: I get it. But sir, a lot of people have
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: had worse childhoods.
• 1:48:35
  Speaker 2: I do believe he wrote these. And the reason why
• 1:48:38
  Speaker 2: I say that is because I did look into the
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 2: author that like ran that page and like her work
• 1:48:43
  Speaker 2: at she's pretty well known person ethical yeah, like I mean,
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: I she's not Catherine Nader. Yeah, I didn't have any
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: reason to not believe or and there was really nothing
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: else she put like with this, you know what I mean,
• 1:48:58
  Speaker 2: It was like that's literally the words. So I mean
• 1:49:02
  Speaker 2: I found it to be probably highly reliable. I vetted her.
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: She seemed like a professional person. She didn't like really
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: write like a lot of true crime or anything like that.
• 1:49:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah, you did fall in some rabbit holes trying
• 1:49:18
  Speaker 2: to h to find some rabbit holes. But just like
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 2: we heard from him.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 1: While Luna's letter was a dive into chaotic internal world
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: for a self obsessed delusional man. Marine's public statement is concise, professional.
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 1: It feels like a direct address to a system that
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: has absolutely felled her, in my opinion, So let's see
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 1: what she has to say.
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: April eighth, two thousand and four. All right, I need help.
• 1:49:57
  Speaker 2: My name is Maureene McDermott. But my friend Calming Mickey,
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: my life has been stolen away from me by the
• 1:50:05
  Speaker 2: horrific violence and insane lies of Jimmy Luna, whom I
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: once thought was at worst a pest. Never did I
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: imagine that he would steal the life of my friend
• 1:50:18
  Speaker 2: Stephen Eldridge, then lie and steal my life too, But
• 1:50:23
  Speaker 2: that's what he did. My case was fabricated from police
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 2: and prosecutatorial Why can't I say that word prosecutorial, thank
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: you misconduct. We've said a lot of words tonight. My
• 1:50:39
  Speaker 2: trial was a travesty. Underscore that, like three times. Underline
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 2: that my incompetent trial lawyer did no investigation and presented
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: no defense, and I'm on death row for a crime.
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: I did not commit a crime. I knew nothing about
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 2: a crime I never would have wanted to happen, had
• 1:51:01
  Speaker 2: I even known or suspected it was going to happen.
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: I had excellent attorneys for my post conviction appeal, and
• 1:51:09
  Speaker 2: now I have excellent attorneys for federal habus. What I
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: need now is public support. I need favorable publicity. I
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: need people to be informed of how I was unjustly
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: convicted and how three brutal murderers avoided punishment in return
• 1:51:30
  Speaker 2: for their perjured testimony that made me out to be
• 1:51:33
  Speaker 2: a cold blooded killer. I need people on my team
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: to influence public opinion, to convince people of my innocence,
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 2: and to work for my release. I need your help.
• 1:51:46
  Speaker 2: I am completely innocent. Please help me to prove it. Respectfully.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 2: Marine McKay McDermott, goable girl, Mickey, we're trying, okay, let's prostitution,
• 1:52:06
  Speaker 2: prosectorl whatever.
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 1: Kelly p.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: She might need Alan Jackson, but he doesn't really do
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 1: that kind of work.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: You know. That's why when people will be like, oh,
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 2: well they can file an appeal, that doesn't mean shit,
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: all right. The percentage of an appeal being like granted
• 1:52:24
  Speaker 2: is very slim, and it can only be for specific things,
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: and it's very even if you've got a shit trial
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 2: like it can only be for a few certain reasons
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 2: of why you're granted a new trial. But this is
• 1:52:40
  Speaker 2: one of the few death row ones I've been like,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: are you kidding me?
• 1:52:44
  Speaker 1: I will say, from the little bit I've read and
• 1:52:48
  Speaker 1: I've heard about Govin, if people will write him, he does,
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: he gets enough people sending to him, he'll, you know,
• 1:52:59
  Speaker 1: step In. I mean he got involved with the Menindaz
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: brothers after getting a lot of male so not secny.
• 1:53:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. To me, it doesn't matter if she's
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 2: guilty or innocent. That's no way. That was a fair trial.
• 1:53:12
  Speaker 2: That was not a I think she's actually innocent. Yes,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: but hold on, we have our clothes and to do,
• 1:53:18
  Speaker 2: and then we'll get into So we've.
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: Heard from the maniac and the mastermind. One admits that
• 1:53:25
  Speaker 1: he lied to stay off the execution table, and the
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: other claims she has been buried alive by those lives.
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 2: But when you step back.
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: From the prosecution's mastermind narrative, you are left with a
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: collection of facts that paint a very different and much
• 1:53:44
  Speaker 1: darker picture of the American justice system. When we began
• 1:53:49
  Speaker 1: this journey, we saw a woman accused of orchestrating a
• 1:53:53
  Speaker 1: horrific murder for insurance money, but over the course of
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 1: these episode us, we've seen the foundation of that case
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: crumble under the weight of suppressed or lack of evidence,
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: and professional negligence all around. This case literally rests almost
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: entirely on Jimmy Luna, a man diagnosed with disassociative psychosis
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: and a history of violent castration fantasies, A man who
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 1: admitted he only gave the detectives what they wanted to
• 1:54:32
  Speaker 1: hear to avoid the death penalty himself.
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 2: And that's all right. Then we have Marine's lawyer, Joe Engber,
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: who had a clear, very clear conflict of interests with Luna,
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 2: did no pre trial investigation, and allegedly lied to the
• 1:54:49
  Speaker 2: core about his fees, causing Marine's friends and character witnesses
• 1:54:54
  Speaker 2: to be excluded from the trial. This type of representation
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 2: for a death penalty case is terrifying to me. It's unbelievable, unbelievable.
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: Then there's the sloppy investigation from crude, bullshit bathroom experiments
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 2: to a lead detective who took zero notes at the
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 2: crime scene. The physical evidence used to corroborate Luna's lives
• 1:55:25
  Speaker 2: was based on guesswork and memory and no forensic science,
• 1:55:30
  Speaker 2: all right, none.
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: And we all should know. We're all humans. Memory is
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: not something you should be relying on in a death
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: penalty case.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 2: And when you're a lead detective, you should know better.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 2: You should know better.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: It's still hard to comprehend that three men, Jimmy Luna,
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: Marvin and Don Dell Lee, who all participated in a
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: brutal murder of an innocent man, either got full of
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 1: mute or avoided the death penalty, and the only person
• 1:56:05
  Speaker 1: facing execution is the one who very well could be
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: an additional victim. If Jimmy Luna's mind was truly a
• 1:56:16
  Speaker 1: mind filled of violent delusions, as doctor Lewis suggested, then
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 1: the state of California didn't just convict Marie McDermott. They
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 1: allowed a killer to choose his own ending while they
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: authored hers. As Marie McDermott awaits in her cell, she
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: continues to maintain one simple truth. She is innocent, And
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 1: after looking over all the information, the question isn't just
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: whether or not she is innocent, it's whether any of
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: us could be safe in a system where the truth
• 1:56:55
  Speaker 1: is traded for a deal.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: So what is your guys as verdict? At this point?
• 1:57:02
  Speaker 2: Chat replay crew, you can leave it in the comments?
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 2: What do you think about this? Do you think she's
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: guilty or innocent? Needs a new trial? Are you outraged
• 1:57:12
  Speaker 2: by what you heard? Or maybe not? Maybe we're not
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 2: seeing things from a certain angle. I don't know, But
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 2: what are your thoughts about this? Because I had never
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 2: heard of this case before. I hadn't either when I
• 1:57:25
  Speaker 2: was writing for women on death Row Listen, I read
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of death row cases and there wasn't really
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: a single one that I was like oh until I
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: got to Marines and then I was like, whoa this,
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 2: we got some problems here, we got some problems here.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 2: You know how old she is now? She is seventy,
• 1:57:44
  Speaker 2: She's in her seventies, maybe early eighties, something like that.
• 1:57:49
  Speaker 2: So I personally feel I think that she is factually innocent.
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 2: That's my opinion. I think that Jen was very upset
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 2: about her leaving. He had already lost his job, he
• 1:58:06
  Speaker 2: lost his place to live, So that's going to make
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 2: anybody in his situation spy.
• 1:58:10
  Speaker 1: He loaned her, she loaned him money. She was the
• 1:58:13
  Speaker 1: only one there to answer his calls. She's been incarcerated
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: since nineteen eighty nine. I believe Leney.
• 1:58:20
  Speaker 2: Well since nineteen eighty five when she was arrested waiting. Yeah,
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 2: so forty years. She has been locked up for forty
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 2: years because she was not given bail, and she's been
• 1:58:30
  Speaker 2: on death row this whole time. She's still on technically
• 1:58:33
  Speaker 2: California's death row. But I could not believe that their start,
• 1:58:42
  Speaker 2: they would put Jimmy Luna on the stand period. I
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 2: can't believe it. I do feel like this was a
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 2: very political trial. You know, during the eighties. It was
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the eighties where aides was a
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 2: big deal, Gay rights was a big deal, racial issues
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: were a big deal, and this kind of had like
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 2: all of the different of factors into play that I
• 1:59:07
  Speaker 2: don't know how you could look at this and not
• 1:59:09
  Speaker 2: think that it wasn't a political move for Catherine Mader, who,
• 1:59:13
  Speaker 2: quite frankly, I do not have good words for that woman.
• 1:59:17
  Speaker 2: How dare you? Because there was no justice done for
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: Stephen by what you allowed those others two to get
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 2: away with. That was Marie.
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: She did not do her job.
• 1:59:33
  Speaker 2: She has a group of supporters, but it's not very big. Again,
• 1:59:38
  Speaker 2: this isn't a very well known, talked about case, and
• 1:59:42
  Speaker 2: we couldn't even find pictures of Jimmy, Dondell or Marvin.
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: We don't even know where they went. We looked everywhere
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: trying to find them, and we have no idea what
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: happened to them and what Jammy said.
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: Now, but you let off two of the people.
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 2: This crime, Scott Free.
• 2:00:03
  Speaker 1: Is appalling. I mean, we know whoever's first to the
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 1: table gets a deal. We know that they don't normally
• 2:00:09
  Speaker 1: get to walk away completely.
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: For forty four stab wounds and mutilation to the body.
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: And you can have Maureen. Nobody even got charges for that.
• 2:00:26
  Speaker 2: No, because they said, oh, she just did it, Sarah.
• 2:00:28
  Speaker 2: So just it's just that story. It just doesn't track
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: with me. I mean, listen, we do hear people have
• 2:00:36
  Speaker 2: killed people over two dollars, all right, We've heard tons
• 2:00:39
  Speaker 2: of life insurance, but it didn't make sense for her
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 2: and her life and where it was. None of this
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 2: makes sense for her character as a person, and all
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: of it makes sense that Jimmy just came up with
• 2:00:53
  Speaker 2: us all in his mind because he didn't deal with
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 2: any of his childhood bullshit.
• 2:00:57
  Speaker 1: He even admitted she didn't ask me, I just knew.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: But yet in Part one, we talked about how they
• 2:01:04
  Speaker 1: negotiated over.
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 2: The fee exactly? How do you negotiate over the fee?
• 2:01:09
  Speaker 1: If she didn't ask you.
• 2:01:12
  Speaker 2: Exactly, now I would maybe there's more details to this
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 2: trial that we don't know. Even if there is, I
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: don't even if there is, I don't know if that
• 2:01:22
  Speaker 2: still makes up for all the shenanigans that happened in mind,
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I tried to find like everything we could
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 2: and that was really it. And no, she doesn't really
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 2: have a huge supporter base. But I do think, you know,
• 2:01:38
  Speaker 2: I think she's innocent. I don't think she had anything
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 2: to do with this.
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: I don't either. But even besides that, she didn't get
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: a fair trial, whether she's center or guilty. He should
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: never have been allowed to testify against her because there
• 2:01:54
  Speaker 1: was truly no other evidence against her. In California law
• 2:01:58
  Speaker 1: says you can't just that. I'm sorry, phone records.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: But the band of Harry I didn't even check the
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 2: bath water. Yeah, I mean, right between that bunk science
• 2:02:16
  Speaker 2: and it's not even I'm not even gonna call it that,
• 2:02:19
  Speaker 2: it's not even science. A lead detective who took no notes,
• 2:02:22
  Speaker 2: which means anything you hear about the time, who wrote the.
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: Report that was written.
• 2:02:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just wild wild to me. So you got locked
• 2:02:36
  Speaker 2: up in Tabath for sitting in a parking lot mine
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 2: in your own business, right, Like, I mean, it's crazy.
• 2:02:41
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we do run across cases where it's just like no,
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 2: you know. And that's why I very much believe in
• 2:02:48
  Speaker 2: transparencies with the core system, including streaming trials all of that,
• 2:02:53
  Speaker 2: because listen, Maureen is not the only person who's happened
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 2: to you know. Just like I said when we were
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: covering the Karen retrial, this is not Karen Reid's not
• 2:03:00
  Speaker 2: the only person that's having to all right. It's happening
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 2: to tons of people all over the country all of
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 2:03:06
  Speaker 1: Laney, it's not So she found it when the death
• 2:03:11
  Speaker 1: row cases were going on women on death Row and
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 1: she looked into it from there and she said, some
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: just doesn't smell right on this one.
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then there's just not a lot of movement
• 2:03:22
  Speaker 2: for this. So but that's what we have for you tonight.
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: Do you have any more closing thoughts?
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 1: It was a wild ride, and I think we need
• 2:03:37
  Speaker 1: to figure out what can be done, whether it's people
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: write letters something because this poor.
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: Woman, yeah, yeah, right, Karen Reid was lucky because she
• 2:03:51
  Speaker 2: did have the resources of an amazing team.
• 2:03:53
  Speaker 1: But you know, second, the eighties, I mean, things were
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: so different then, so different, so different. Before we go,
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: if you like what you've heard tonight, please be sure
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 1: to follow all of our socials. Subscribe to our YouTube channel.
• 2:04:09
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• 2:04:12
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• 2:04:17
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• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: us tremendously in getting our channel out there.
• 2:04:24
  Speaker 2: She's seventy nine, Okay, I thought she was very close
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 2: to eighties. Sorry. Now, next week, you guys, on True
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: Crime and Line Time, we will be covering the truly
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 2: horrifying case of Cassie. Joe Stoddard and Terry has been
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: working around the clock on this story.
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: Buffy, Buffy, Buffy, I'm gonna have to get you. Buffy
• 2:04:50
  Speaker 1: recommended this then, I mean, I've bought a book, had
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 1: to stop and read that book. There is so much
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: about this case.
• 2:04:58
  Speaker 2: Too, that's true. We'll be covering this case. We are
• 2:05:02
  Speaker 2: live every Thursday night at eight pm Eastern right here
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 2: on our YouTube channel. In case you're listening on the podcast,
• 2:05:07
  Speaker 2: come over here. We have visuals and stuff too. Now
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: you can catch me every Tuesday, Thursday, and Friday at
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: eleven am Eastern, including tomorrow, where we are deep diving
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 2: the con herd around the world Laura Owens. We're doing
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 2: this to prepare for her upcoming trail, and you guys,
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 2: it has everything all right. We are covering the stories
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 2: of three different men who all face the same pattern
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: brief encounters followed by claims of pregnancies, faked ultrasounds, lawsuits, harassments,
• 2:05:45
  Speaker 2: all sorts of things. And right now today she faces
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: fourteen felony counts, including perjury, evidence, stampering, and identity theft
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 2: based on just two of the three men we were
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 2: talking about. Would you serious? And whispers whispers say maybe
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 2: some federal charges coming too, So, just like you, we're
• 2:06:10
  Speaker 2: also very new to this case and you do not
• 2:06:13
  Speaker 2: want to miss a single minute of this deep dive
• 2:06:15
  Speaker 2: before the trial starts, So grab some snacks, join us
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: on the wild journey as we dig through document by document,
• 2:06:23
  Speaker 2: victim by victim, and react lie to every twist in
• 2:06:26
  Speaker 2: turn as it unfolds. And if you guys are behind,
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 2: if you don't know what we're talking about, which you
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 2: probably don't. We have a whole Laura Owen's playlist on
• 2:06:34
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• 2:06:37
  Speaker 2: soon as you are so definitely be sure to hit
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 2: the subscribe button in the notification bells so you don't
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: miss when we go live with that too, because in
• 2:06:45
  Speaker 2: this case, the truth is stranger than any reality show.
• 2:06:50
  Speaker 2: It's some of the craziest stuff I've ever ever encountered.
• 2:06:53
  Speaker 1: I have to tell you, if Jerry Springer was still going,
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: Jerry Springer would be all over this because it is.
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: She got her notes from there, right, And if you
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: want more of me, you can catch me live every
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: Monday and Wednesday for Midday Missing live on YouTube, Facebook, TikTok,
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: and Kick at noon Central. Now, since I was unable
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 1: to stream on Wednesday this past week, just yesterday, I'm
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 1: going to be doing a special for Midday Missing on
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 1: Sunday at at two pm Eastern one pm Central. And guys,
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 1: the most important thing to remember is that just by
• 2:07:34
  Speaker 1: watching and sharing the posters, we help the families keep
• 2:07:38
  Speaker 1: their loved one stories alive and just maybe a tip
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 1: will get called in and help them get the answers
• 2:07:46
  Speaker 1: that they deserve.
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: Right. I love that well, is there anything else you
• 2:07:54
  Speaker 2: have you want to say tonight?
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 1: Terry sure, I mean thank you for all being here
• 2:07:59
  Speaker 1: for us. Tonight was a Ryle wild ride. It has
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: been a wild ride kind of day on this channel.
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 1: But just remember, until next time, guys.
• 2:08:09
  Speaker 2: Please stay safe.
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: If you see something, say something, and enjoy your wine time.
• 2:08:17
  Speaker 2: That's right until next Thursday, guys, go back on Tuesday. Oh,
• 2:08:23
  Speaker 2: that's right, we're back on Tuesday because we have the interview.
• 2:08:25
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I knew that it's in the calendar. I'll
• 2:08:27
  Speaker 2: show it.
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: Okay, we're back on Tuesday with Ruby.
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 2: That's right until Tuesday for justice for Ruby. Until next time,
• 2:08:34
  Speaker 2: stay safe and go forth and be well amazing. All right, bye, guys,