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Bryan Kohberger: The Progression to Murder · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Greece.
0:13
Speaker 2: Brian Cooberger now charged in the slave of four University
0:18
Speaker 2: Idaho students. The big question right now is how did
0:24
Speaker 2: he turn into the monster?
0:28
Speaker 3: Prosecutors say he is.
0:32
Speaker 2: Looking at a string of alleged incidents all the way
0:38
Speaker 2: back to stalking, allegedly stalking some of the Idaho for
0:48
Speaker 2: digital via social in months leading up to their murders,
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Speaker 2: seeking them out online at least one, if not more,
1:00
Speaker 2: of the girls on King Rhad.
1:02
Speaker 3: How did he find them?
1:05
Speaker 2: Did he somehow run into them when he was there
1:08
Speaker 2: finding an apartment or.
1:12
Speaker 3: Touring campus there.
1:14
Speaker 2: At WSU Washington State University, is that when their paths collided?
1:19
Speaker 2: Did they know they were being watched? Did they ever
1:23
Speaker 2: read his emails he's sent introducing himself or trying to
1:27
Speaker 2: hook up with them, or did it go into a
1:29
Speaker 2: spam folder. Then we have the incident where he allegedly
1:36
Speaker 2: went into a colleague, a female colleagues home there at
1:39
Speaker 2: Washington State University and moved things around in her apartment,
1:46
Speaker 2: manipulating her into coming to him and saying, oh, my stars,
1:51
Speaker 2: guess what happened? Some freak spin in my apartment? And
1:55
Speaker 2: then he swoops in like the savior and sets up
1:58
Speaker 2: her WiFi, finding out the password and security system so
2:02
Speaker 2: he can spy on her remote even from his phone
2:06
Speaker 2: whenever he felt like it. I mean, what kind of
2:09
Speaker 2: a kick do you get from watching somebody else watching
2:12
Speaker 2: TV or doing the dishes, or doing her hair or
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Speaker 2: the Lord only knows what else he watched? Did he
2:22
Speaker 2: install more cameras than what she knows about? Then we
2:28
Speaker 2: have another alleged incident where a neighbor of the king
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Speaker 2: Rode victims, the four victims Mattie, Xana, Kelly, and Ethan
2:41
Speaker 2: that has items taken out of a suitcase which was
2:44
Speaker 2: in her car and the underwear shoved into the door
2:51
Speaker 2: the car door.
2:54
Speaker 3: Around the time of the murders leading up to the murders.
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Speaker 2: What else is there? Is there more? Joining me right now?
3:06
Speaker 2: Is a renowned psychoanalyst joining us out of Beverly Hills
3:10
Speaker 2: is doctor Bethany Marshall and you can find her at
3:14
Speaker 2: doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. Doctor Bethany, thank you for
3:21
Speaker 2: being with us.
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Speaker 4: First of all, I'm happy to be here.
3:27
Speaker 2: I don't know that this evidence will ever make its
3:30
Speaker 2: way to the jury. These alleged similar transactions. Because I
3:38
Speaker 2: know you're psychoanalyst, doctor Bethany, but we have discussed similar
3:42
Speaker 2: transactions many times in the past.
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Speaker 3: You and I.
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Speaker 2: Fingerprint crimes or crimes that tend to prove motive, scheme,
3:53
Speaker 2: frame of mind, course of conduct, and this would definitely
3:58
Speaker 2: fall into motive. Typically, in our jurisprudence system, which we
4:05
Speaker 2: brought over from Great Britain.
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Speaker 3: Past acts bad acts cannot come in. Say, let's just
4:15
Speaker 3: say Jackie.
4:17
Speaker 2: Is accused of shooting Sydney down one day here in
4:20
Speaker 2: the studio. Well, the prosecutor cannot bring the whole list
4:24
Speaker 2: of Jackies shopliftings, sorry Jackie, because they have no bearing
4:31
Speaker 2: on the murder. That's why bad acts are typically not
4:35
Speaker 2: brought into evidence. You don't want a jury rendering a
4:38
Speaker 2: verdict based on a popularity contest. Oh, she's a bad person,
4:42
Speaker 2: she's a shoplifter, let's convict her on murder. No, that's
4:46
Speaker 2: why many bad acts don't ever come within the gr
4:51
Speaker 2: r's purview.
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Speaker 3: They never know about them.
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Speaker 2: That said, if a prior bad act, be it a
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Speaker 2: conviction or no, it doesn't have to be a conviction.
5:03
Speaker 2: If a prior act shows modus operandi method of operation,
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Speaker 2: course of conduct, scheme, frame of mind.
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Speaker 3: Then it can come in.
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Speaker 2: But I don't want to talk to you about the law,
5:19
Speaker 2: whether these will ever come in before a jury. I
5:22
Speaker 2: want to talk to you about the why. And remember,
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Speaker 2: the prosecution doesn't have to prove why, doesn't matter why.
5:29
Speaker 2: So let me ask you, doctor Bethany, why Let's just
5:35
Speaker 2: start at the beginning. Let's start with the case in chief.
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Speaker 4: Well, I think the question of why is so important,
5:45
Speaker 4: perhaps not from a legal perspective, and I think from
5:48
Speaker 4: a psychological perspective for your listeners and for us in
5:52
Speaker 4: society to understand what motivates the Brian Kobergers of this world.
6:00
Speaker 4: So when a patient comes into my office, I try
6:05
Speaker 4: to identify what's called an organizing principle for their personality.
6:11
Speaker 4: Once I know what the organizing principle is, then all
6:15
Speaker 4: of the other behaviors begin to make sense. I would
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Speaker 4: say that Brian Koberger's organizing principle is that he is
6:26
Speaker 4: a sex predator, right, that's fairly obvious at this point,
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Speaker 4: and that there is a pattern to the predation that's
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Speaker 4: beginning to play out in all these various incidences that
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Speaker 4: you're describing, which I think will be fascinating to unpack.
6:45
Speaker 4: But we see spying on an unsuspecting victim. That tells
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Speaker 4: me that he has something called scoptophilia.
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Speaker 3: Let me write that down, and how do you what
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Speaker 3: do you.
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Speaker 4: Say, Scott Cecilia s c O P T O P
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Speaker 4: h I L I as a fancy word for a
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Speaker 4: peeping tom. It's the least everything.
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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, hold on doctor Bethany being just a JD,
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Speaker 2: not a psychoanalyst like you.
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Speaker 3: Helping all those poor.
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Speaker 2: Pitiful people on Rodeo Drive with all their problems. I
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Speaker 2: know this, and again it's anecdotal, it is not a
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Speaker 2: statistical deduction. But so many times in rape sidnymy h.
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Speaker 2: Not as much in toim molestations, but in rape, sodomy,
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Speaker 2: murders burglaries, I'd look through the defendant's file and this
7:45
Speaker 2: is based on a fingerprint. I'd see all the different
7:48
Speaker 2: aliases and names, and there would almost always be a
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Speaker 2: peeping tom in there, or a loitering or a criminal trespass,
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Speaker 2: which at the moment I saw it, I would know
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Speaker 2: that's peeping Tom, and they charged with trespass because he's
8:03
Speaker 2: like standing outside some lady's window looking in but they
8:07
Speaker 2: were almost always, you know, be there somewhere hidden in
8:14
Speaker 2: all the record.
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Speaker 4: That's right, Nancy. So a couple of things about that.
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Speaker 4: And this is going to sound so freaky and unlikely,
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Speaker 4: but I do believe it to be true. That So,
8:29
Speaker 4: think about the earliest form of sounds.
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Speaker 3: Like criminal sexual deviant behavior, pre k. You start with
8:35
Speaker 3: the paping, okay, pre k Okay.
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Speaker 4: So the earliest form of relating we have as human
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Speaker 4: beings is looking back and forth into our mother's eyes, staring, loving,
8:46
Speaker 4: you know, gazing. It's a very early form of relating.
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Speaker 4: And often these perps, these perpetrators are caught at that
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Speaker 4: earliest level of relating where they just want to scare.
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Speaker 4: They want to look, but they want to look in
9:01
Speaker 4: such a way that the other person doesn't look back.
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Speaker 4: They want to have all the power and the gazing
9:07
Speaker 4: aspect of attachment. Also, these guys are obsessed with sex.
9:15
Speaker 4: They have very prolific fantasy lives. They're probably masturbating as
9:19
Speaker 4: they're looking at the other person. So all the gazing
9:23
Speaker 4: and looking allows them to engage their sexual proclivities without
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Speaker 4: the consent of a partner, without that other person saying, hey,
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Speaker 4: i've had an app. Oh, We've had a wonderful romantic night.
9:35
Speaker 4: We've had a glass of wine, we had dinner, we
9:37
Speaker 4: had sex, time to go to bed. That's a normal
9:40
Speaker 4: sexual relationship. But Brian Kolberger does not want a normal
9:44
Speaker 4: sexual relationship. He wants a sexual relationship in which it's endless,
9:50
Speaker 4: it goes on and on, and his fantasy life is
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Speaker 4: in charge and he can do whatever he wants to
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Speaker 4: the victims. So it's a very dominant type sexual relationship
10:01
Speaker 4: with the other. And I think this is why this
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Speaker 4: is sort of at the beginning of these offending patterns.
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Speaker 4: Remember the scoptophilia or the peeping tom activities were there
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Speaker 4: from the very beginning. It's like being a peeping tom
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Speaker 4: is like putting on the training wheels. That's where it
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Speaker 4: all starts.
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Speaker 3: How early does it manifest and puberty.
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Speaker 2: I.
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Speaker 4: Would say before puberty. And the reason for that is that,
10:30
Speaker 4: you know, the wish to have power predates sexual interest.
10:36
Speaker 4: So it could be that he was staring and sort
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Speaker 4: of taking in a lot of information about his playmates
10:43
Speaker 4: before he was aware of himself as a sexual being.
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Speaker 3: Okay, well, how are we spot that on the playground.
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Speaker 4: Well, here's the interesting thing. There was one interesting study
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Speaker 4: that came out a number of years ago. The average
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Speaker 4: age of a sex predator at that time, they said,
11:04
Speaker 4: was thirteen years old, the most common age. Sorry, because
11:08
Speaker 4: that's when hormones began to kick in, that was the
11:11
Speaker 4: beginning of puberty. But there was no way to measure
11:15
Speaker 4: it because they're just little kids at that point. So
11:18
Speaker 4: they're not like looking at pornography, they're not breaking into
11:21
Speaker 4: people's houses. They're just on the playground. So you know,
11:25
Speaker 4: this is why these discussions are important, because a thirteen
11:29
Speaker 4: year old can be at the beginning of an offending pattern,
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Speaker 4: and prior to the sexual aspect of the predating pattern,
11:39
Speaker 4: the power aspect begins. So you have like six seven
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Speaker 4: eight year olds who want to, you know, hit other
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Speaker 4: kids over the head and have all the power. I mean.
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Speaker 4: There's an article in the New York Times about four
11:49
Speaker 4: or five years ago called can a nine year old
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Speaker 4: Be a Sociopath? And they were looking at a study
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Speaker 4: where nine year olds were exhibiting sociopathic behavior. So being
11:59
Speaker 4: the sociopath becomes first. Sexuality being a major instrument of
12:04
Speaker 4: the sociopathy or symptom of it comes second.
12:25
Speaker 3: Time.
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Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 2: So how fast forward to now what I don't understand
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Speaker 2: how murdering these three young women and boyfriend ethan shape
12:44
Speaker 2: and happened to be there?
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Speaker 3: How did that?
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Speaker 2: How does that fit in as a sexual component to
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Speaker 2: giving Brian Coberger any sort of sex gratification.
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Speaker 4: Well, so remember the predating pattern with those four did
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Speaker 4: not start the night as a murder. It started months
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Speaker 4: in advance, where he started hitting them up online, looking
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Speaker 4: at pictures, developing fantasies about them. So his first trophy,
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Speaker 4: I would say, would probably be pictures that he downloaded
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Speaker 4: onto his computer. Probably those pictures became a part of
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Speaker 4: a fantasy life, and then he graduated towards the night
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Speaker 4: of the murder. So you know, first you you hit
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Speaker 4: the other person up, you DM them. Then he downloads
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Speaker 4: the pictures. Then he masturbates a lot looking at the pictures.
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Speaker 4: Then that's not enough that he has to like drive
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Speaker 4: to the house and look through the windows. Then that's
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Speaker 4: not enough. Pretty soon he's working himself up into a
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Speaker 4: sadistic fantasy. And this is where we graduate from being
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Speaker 4: a peeping tom to a sexually sadistic murderer. So that
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Speaker 4: that's the progression because they're a lot of peeping toms
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Speaker 4: who don't go on to brutally murder people. So in
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Speaker 4: order to understand how one led to the other, the
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Speaker 4: peeping tom led to brutally stabbing them multiple times, we
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Speaker 4: have to understand how the mind of the sociopath works.
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Speaker 4: And I've said this too many times, but I'll break
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Speaker 4: it down with the audience in a very simple way.
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Speaker 4: Sociopaths are very empty people. They don't have pleasure from
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Speaker 4: normal things like you and I do, like maybe watching
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Speaker 4: their child hit a home run or a balloon, the
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Speaker 4: balloons being released into the sky after graduation. They have
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Speaker 4: no pleasure. They're dead inside and so because of that,
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Speaker 4: they cannot experience sexual gratification in normal ways. So they
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Speaker 4: use sadism to enhance their sexual arousal. It puts them
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Speaker 4: into sexual overdrive, a sexual frenzy that they experience as
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Speaker 4: normal sexuality. So first for Coburger, it's looking through windows.
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Speaker 4: Then it's masturbating a lot to the pictures. Then then
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Speaker 4: it's probably being angry but he can't get them to
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Speaker 4: respond to him. Then it's looking through the windows and
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Speaker 4: seeing that they're having a good time and he's not invited.
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Speaker 4: Then it's then it's fantasies of maybe strangulation or rape.
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Speaker 4: And then then by the time he murders them, you know,
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Speaker 4: the heightened sexual frenzy is very satisfying to him. So
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Speaker 4: sadism like plunging a knife into them, and sexual arousal
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Speaker 4: and ejaculation all get fused together.
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Speaker 2: Now we'll be saying, okay, because I'm trying to take
15:45
Speaker 2: it all in. So first it starts with the trophy photos,
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Speaker 2: the Hey downwads, we think. Second, he starts to try
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Speaker 2: to community. He starts a fantasy life. Then he starts
16:00
Speaker 2: trying to communicate with them. Then he begins to drive
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Speaker 2: this is your theory. Then he begins to drive to
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Speaker 2: their home to look in their windows when they're not
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Speaker 2: communicating back to him, I mean, and we don't know
16:17
Speaker 2: if they even ever got the emails because it was
16:20
Speaker 2: under a with a social platform where you know, like
16:24
Speaker 2: on Facebook, which many people understand. You accept someone that
16:29
Speaker 2: tries to friend you, and if you don't, then they're
16:32
Speaker 2: not privy to all your communications. So trophy photos download,
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Speaker 2: he downloads, starts fantasy life, tries to communicate with them,
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Speaker 2: drives to their home, starts looking in the windows. I
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Speaker 2: added in a fifth one begins stalking, in other words,
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Speaker 2: finding where they work and where they go to school,
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Speaker 2: watching them five masturbating to the photos as part of
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Speaker 2: his fantasy life. Six Anger, he's watching them living life,
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Speaker 2: befriending other people, going to parties, having dates with other guys, and.
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Speaker 3: Not responding to him. The anger. That's where you lost me.
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Speaker 4: Okay, So what happens at that point is that he
17:19
Speaker 4: cannot experience sexual arousal in the normal ways anymore. Just
17:25
Speaker 4: masturbating to their photos or masturbating while looking through their
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Speaker 4: windows is no longer enough to feel sexually satisfied. He
17:34
Speaker 4: has to graduate to aadhism. That is the important link
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Speaker 4: that he cannot maybe perhaps he can't even ejaculate anymore
17:47
Speaker 4: without the thought of hurting someone.
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Speaker 2: Is it because it's the anger that they are not
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Speaker 2: responding to him?
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Speaker 4: No, anger is sort of like sort of I think
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Speaker 4: the I think towards the end it's sadism. Knowing that
18:05
Speaker 4: he's hurting them enhances the sexual arousal.
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Speaker 2: So you know, I don't know or anger in this
18:12
Speaker 2: case that one of them was moving away. I don't
18:17
Speaker 2: know if I realize that, but they're not responding to him.
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Speaker 2: And I've seen so many cases, doctor bethany where the perpetrator,
18:27
Speaker 2: typically a male, the anger is fused and ignites when
18:31
Speaker 2: the woman won't go out with them, won't respond to them,
18:36
Speaker 2: what rejects them. Now, it's my belief, as a complete
18:40
Speaker 2: non professional in mental health care.
18:43
Speaker 3: That that is an excuse that they're full of anger.
18:48
Speaker 2: Anyway, and when the woman says no, I don't want
18:53
Speaker 2: to go out, or I don't want to dance, or
18:55
Speaker 2: not I don't want to drink, I think that that's
18:58
Speaker 2: an excuse to attack. Because with a regular person, if
19:03
Speaker 2: somebody says no, then you go like okay, thanks anyway.
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Speaker 4: Next, well, I think we want to attribute normal human
19:11
Speaker 4: psychology to these people, like, oh, you know, a lot
19:14
Speaker 4: of domestic aside is when the woman's about to leave
19:17
Speaker 4: or divorce demand and so oh, it must follow that pattern.
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Speaker 4: But to speak to your line of thinking, which I
19:24
Speaker 4: think is more accurate, the victim is about to move away,
19:29
Speaker 4: so they have to escalate the offending pattern. To think
19:32
Speaker 4: about a cat with a mouse, and it's so simple
19:34
Speaker 4: that the mouse runs away, the cat delightedly runs after,
19:38
Speaker 4: pounces and brings the mouse back and there's ultimate predatory
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Speaker 4: control and delight in bringing the mouse back. Maybe the
19:47
Speaker 4: cat presents the half dead mouse to the owner with delight.
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Speaker 4: And in this case, you know, if you have put
19:54
Speaker 4: so much time and energy into planning a crime and
19:57
Speaker 4: now you're victims moving out of the state, you know
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Speaker 4: you better escalate it now. Remember what some of his
20:04
Speaker 4: classmates said that before the crime, he this was in
20:09
Speaker 4: graduate school. He would show up exhausted every day. He
20:13
Speaker 4: would always walk into class with a cup of coffee
20:16
Speaker 4: like he hadn't had enough sleep. That tells me he
20:19
Speaker 4: was up all night planning this, thinking about it. And
20:22
Speaker 4: so when the victims are about to move away, he's
20:25
Speaker 4: loving control. So you know, if they were all going
20:27
Speaker 4: to stay there, maybe the crime would have been three
20:29
Speaker 4: months later or six months later. After the crime, he
20:34
Speaker 4: remember he Procter tests. He started handing out one hundreds
20:38
Speaker 4: a pluses to everyone. So we can also think of
20:42
Speaker 4: this as a compulsion that was it was occupying more
20:46
Speaker 4: and more and more energy until he did it, and
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Speaker 4: then afterwards he was very satisfied. And you know it's
20:52
Speaker 4: like drinks all around, right, giving everyone champagne, you know,
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Speaker 4: giving one everyone, you know one hundred marks on their tests.
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Speaker 4: I think that's I think that's one more of evidence.
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Speaker 4: It won't come into court, of course, but it's interesting
21:07
Speaker 4: for what we're talking about this morning.
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Speaker 1: Time stories with me. It's a grace.
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Speaker 2: So Doctor Bethany is still unclear in my mind how
21:31
Speaker 2: you go from writing someone, emailing them, contacting them on
21:38
Speaker 2: social to killing them. But I hear the fantasy life
21:44
Speaker 2: was no longer satisfying him and he had to go
21:47
Speaker 2: another step in your scenario. So I've got two incidents.
21:51
Speaker 2: I want to find out what you think about them.
21:54
Speaker 2: One where he is accused of breaking into a female
22:00
Speaker 2: colleagues home, rearranging, moving or taking something.
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Speaker 3: We don't know what.
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Speaker 2: It could have been a vase, it could have been
22:07
Speaker 2: a frying pan, I don't know what. It could have
22:09
Speaker 2: been her clothing. She gets very upset that somebody has
22:14
Speaker 2: clearly been in her home, tells him about it, as
22:18
Speaker 2: he knew she would, and he offers to set up
22:21
Speaker 2: her Wi Fi security cams, getting all of her passwords.
22:25
Speaker 2: That and another incident not yet connected to him, but
22:31
Speaker 2: quite coincidental, where a neighbor has underwear taken out of
22:35
Speaker 2: a suitcase in her car and stuffed in her car door.
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Speaker 3: Let's deal with the colleague first. What do you make
22:42
Speaker 3: of that?
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Speaker 4: You know, when I first read of this, Nancy, I
22:46
Speaker 4: thought about a creepy story that happened in my Beverly
22:51
Speaker 4: Hills office years ago, where a guy came in and
22:53
Speaker 4: told me that he had this compulsion. He was married.
22:58
Speaker 4: He jumped out of bed in the middle of the night,
23:00
Speaker 4: rushed towards the bed like he was an attacker. His
23:03
Speaker 4: wife woke up screaming, and then he excitedly comforted her
23:09
Speaker 4: as if someone else had broken into the house, not him.
23:13
Speaker 4: And I've always puzzled over that story. It was so
23:15
Speaker 4: strange to me, and the guy didn't stay in therapy long.
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Speaker 4: But to me, that speaks of inhabbiting every character in
23:25
Speaker 4: the play. I mean, so we think of Brian Kloberger.
23:29
Speaker 4: He's the one who saves and rescues right he goes in,
23:32
Speaker 4: He installves the surveillance system. He's the one who predates,
23:37
Speaker 4: who spies. He's looking at her in a sexual way
23:40
Speaker 4: while she's unsuspecting. He's the one that kind of stirs
23:44
Speaker 4: her up by moving things around the house and gets
23:47
Speaker 4: her to be all worried. And he sort of becomes
23:50
Speaker 4: everyone to her. It's like he swallows her up in
23:55
Speaker 4: fantasy to where she has nothing going on but thinking
23:59
Speaker 4: about him. Course, she doesn't know it's him, but in
24:01
Speaker 4: his mind he thinks it's him, and it's That's one
24:04
Speaker 4: way to think of it. The other is, again the
24:07
Speaker 4: prolific sexual energy that goes into these kinds of crimes.
24:14
Speaker 4: I don't know if you know the fancy, but one
24:17
Speaker 4: of the features or the symptoms of sex addicts is
24:21
Speaker 4: that they present as if they have attention deficit disorder.
24:25
Speaker 4: So they come to therapy and you're like, well, why
24:27
Speaker 4: can't you concentrate or focus, and they're distracted, And then
24:30
Speaker 4: you realize this because they're thinking about sex all the time.
24:34
Speaker 4: So apply that to a sexual predator, not just a
24:38
Speaker 4: sex addict. He's thinking about sex twenty four seven. Remember
24:44
Speaker 4: that's the organizing principle we talked about at the beginning
24:47
Speaker 4: of our conversation. So if you think of that organizing principle,
24:52
Speaker 4: he's already picked her as a possible sexual fantasy object, right,
24:59
Speaker 4: So he's moving things around her house. He's probably in
25:02
Speaker 4: a state of sexual excitement when she approaches him about
25:07
Speaker 4: being worried about this, that the power is sexually exciting,
25:12
Speaker 4: and then when he installs the surveillance system, it's like
25:15
Speaker 4: he has you know, it's like, I guess, like the
25:17
Speaker 4: every man's pornography. Not that every man watches pornography, that
25:21
Speaker 4: wasn't the point, but it's like a form of pornography
25:23
Speaker 4: for him that he has her available now whenever he
25:27
Speaker 4: needs and wants masturbatory material.
25:33
Speaker 2: Also, it is a precursor to breaking into the King
25:38
Speaker 2: Rode home, so we have him honing his skills and
25:44
Speaker 2: I'm sure plotting it out very meticulously breaking into the
25:47
Speaker 2: colleague so when she's not there, and the excitement he
25:51
Speaker 2: must have felt figuring out her schedule and finding out
25:53
Speaker 2: where she would be so.
25:54
Speaker 3: It could go break in.
25:56
Speaker 2: To move the items around, I'm very curious to find
25:59
Speaker 2: out what items he chose to move. Did he take
26:02
Speaker 2: all of her underwear out of her underwear drawer and
26:04
Speaker 2: put it somewhere else? Did he move the clothes around
26:08
Speaker 2: that she had hanging in the laundry area by the
26:10
Speaker 2: washer dryer.
26:12
Speaker 3: I don't know what he did.
26:14
Speaker 2: Did he actually take something? I'm just thinking it reminds me.
26:19
Speaker 2: Do you remember the Julie Robers movie Sleeping with the Enemy.
26:23
Speaker 2: Do you remember her husband? She came home one day
26:26
Speaker 2: and opened up the cabinet and all the cans were
26:29
Speaker 2: arranged perfectly, and like her socks were.
26:35
Speaker 3: There were several things.
26:36
Speaker 2: In the home that had been rearranged, not necessarily taken,
26:41
Speaker 2: And I find that very very interesting. Now again, it's
26:46
Speaker 2: not I could never go in depth with all this
26:49
Speaker 2: with a jury like I am with you right now,
26:52
Speaker 2: because it would be deemed irrelevant, objectionable, and possibly, you know,
26:56
Speaker 2: an error on a pill. But I'm curious about it.
27:01
Speaker 3: What did he take? What did he move? How did
27:04
Speaker 3: he get in there?
27:05
Speaker 2: Did he get in there the same mo that he
27:07
Speaker 2: used at King Road? Is there a connection there? Am
27:10
Speaker 2: I beginning a similar transaction pattern regarding the burglary? So
27:14
Speaker 2: forth and so on? And whatever he moved or took
27:17
Speaker 2: in her colleagues a place? Did he take something similar
27:21
Speaker 2: out of King Road that we don't even know about.
27:24
Speaker 3: I would be.
27:25
Speaker 2: Tempted to bring this in as a similar transaction, but
27:27
Speaker 2: I wouldn't want to risk a conviction losing it on appeal.
27:31
Speaker 3: What were you going to say?
27:32
Speaker 4: Well, these were all great questions, because we could look
27:35
Speaker 4: at it a few different ways. One would be it's
27:37
Speaker 4: a form of practicing, right, so we all practice, whether
27:41
Speaker 4: we practicing piano or when you're in high school, you
27:43
Speaker 4: practice being in a relationship, and you graduate into levels
27:48
Speaker 4: of maturity, right in terms of knowing.
27:49
Speaker 3: How it actually made me smile.
27:51
Speaker 2: Just then, doctor Bethany, you said practice in high school,
27:55
Speaker 2: out of sixteen girls, one girl got cut from the
27:58
Speaker 2: basketball team because they only had fifteen uniforms. It was me,
28:02
Speaker 2: hence my career in cherelating, and I was constantly turning
28:07
Speaker 2: cartwheels in the backyard and round dolphs and jumps and flips.
28:10
Speaker 3: I mean, just all the time. Thing about pride is
28:14
Speaker 3: still perfect.
28:15
Speaker 4: Go ahead, well, think about what you just said. Constantly
28:19
Speaker 4: turning cartwheels and clips. You wanted to be on that team.
28:24
Speaker 4: You wanted it so bad, and you put the time
28:26
Speaker 4: and energy into it. Brian Coberger wants this so badly,
28:32
Speaker 4: but in a more perverse way. Now here's where I
28:36
Speaker 4: think we could really begin to dissect it if we
28:39
Speaker 4: knew more about him. What did he do with the underwear?
28:43
Speaker 4: Remember VTK killer wore the underwear and photographed himself.
28:50
Speaker 2: Now in that out of my mind too, you brought
28:53
Speaker 2: it back up.
28:54
Speaker 3: Thanks doctor Bath and and go ahead, right.
28:56
Speaker 4: Do you remember those freaky pictures where he had my
28:59
Speaker 4: heels and stuff, and you know he has statishized bondage gear.
29:04
Speaker 4: And there was something about putting on woman's clothing that
29:07
Speaker 4: was sexually exciting for him. And this is something that
29:10
Speaker 4: we see sometimes those people who have perverse perversions or
29:18
Speaker 4: paraphilias is another word for them, is that putting on
29:22
Speaker 4: woman's clothing is a part of their I'm sorry to
29:27
Speaker 4: keep using this word, but their masturbatory fantasies is a
29:30
Speaker 4: part of their sex life. This is different from I'm
29:32
Speaker 4: not trying to say like like cross dressing or putting
29:37
Speaker 4: on clothing from the opposite sex, or trying to inhabit
29:41
Speaker 4: being another sex that That's not what I'm talking about.
29:44
Speaker 4: I'm talking about something very different. I'm talking about a perversion.
29:48
Speaker 4: And what did he do with the underwear? He smell it,
29:52
Speaker 4: did he put it on? Did he photograph himself in it?
29:56
Speaker 4: Did he take it and take it home as a part,
29:58
Speaker 4: you know, of a of a trophy? Was he grooming
30:02
Speaker 4: her to be the person that he was going to kill?
30:06
Speaker 4: And then he aborted? And then he went to the
30:09
Speaker 4: student housing instead, So I think what he really did
30:13
Speaker 4: with the items is important as well.
30:16
Speaker 2: What if he just moved them or he could have
30:19
Speaker 2: performed some act with them at the home before he left.
30:26
Speaker 2: But I'm just thinking about the meticulous planning it would
30:29
Speaker 2: have required him staking out her apartment, knowing her schedule,
30:35
Speaker 2: breaking in, like planning how is he going to break in?
30:38
Speaker 2: Maybe did he have a toolkit? Could he just break
30:41
Speaker 2: in with a driver's license or a credit card? You know,
30:43
Speaker 2: how he slide it down the between the door and
30:47
Speaker 2: the door jam, asking her questions like wow, what kind
30:52
Speaker 2: of security do you have, trying to find out would
30:55
Speaker 2: the coast be clear for him to break in? The
30:57
Speaker 2: thrill he got when he went into her apartment and
31:00
Speaker 2: got in there for the first time alone, probably looking
31:04
Speaker 2: through her clothing, through her medicine cabinet, through all her
31:07
Speaker 2: lotions and potions. Can you just imagine that, doctor Bethany,
31:11
Speaker 2: and how that played into what.
31:15
Speaker 4: Well. I didn't mean to interrupt that. You're absolutely correct,
31:19
Speaker 4: because the next thing that could have been on his
31:22
Speaker 4: mind was can I plunge a knife into her? But
31:24
Speaker 4: that's how he killed before spoon.
31:26
Speaker 2: Hey, doctor Bethany, when you go on vacations unless you're
31:29
Speaker 2: going on one of your Christian mission trips, where you're
31:32
Speaker 2: probably staying in a hut somewhere. I know I've been
31:35
Speaker 2: on many a fellowship Hall Flora mission trips.
31:38
Speaker 3: But when you go to a fancy hotel and you'll.
31:41
Speaker 2: Walk in and you go wow, I wonder if that's
31:44
Speaker 2: the feeling he had when he walked into her.
31:47
Speaker 4: Place, Nancy's a thrill must have been extraordinary. Remember, we
31:53
Speaker 4: have the term thrill kill right where you just killed
31:56
Speaker 4: because it is thrilling to you. He's not just thinking
32:02
Speaker 4: about sex when he's there. He's thinking about how can
32:08
Speaker 4: he scare her? Can he see a scared look on
32:11
Speaker 4: her face when he says, oh, wow, your underwear was
32:14
Speaker 4: moved around? While that's kind of creepy because you know
32:16
Speaker 4: men who strangulate women often they do that because they
32:20
Speaker 4: want to see the scared look in the woman's eyes.
32:22
Speaker 4: So there's something about that that's sexually exciting to them.
32:25
Speaker 2: That question, have you ever noticed a lot of male
32:29
Speaker 2: on female strangulations occur with the woman's stockings or her leotards,
32:33
Speaker 2: or her underwear or her bra or some other lingerie item.
32:38
Speaker 2: I don't know what that means, but I know it
32:40
Speaker 2: must be significant because it happens so often.
32:43
Speaker 4: Well that that's a really really interesting point. I mean,
32:48
Speaker 4: on the one hand, it might be what's most readily available,
32:51
Speaker 4: but men still strangle with stockings and women don't even
32:55
Speaker 4: wear stalking that much anymore. So maybe what leads up
32:59
Speaker 4: to the crime is actually going through their underwear chores
33:01
Speaker 4: and finding things. But it's also using their femininity against themselves.
33:06
Speaker 4: It's loving their femininity by being misogynistic and hateful and
33:15
Speaker 4: using their feminine instruments of femininity against them in a
33:19
Speaker 4: hobicidal way, which we see on milder levels with misogyny, right,
33:24
Speaker 4: you know, punishing the woman for being a female.
33:28
Speaker 3: Doctor.
33:28
Speaker 2: Bethany, just your knowledge regarding this is vast, and I'm
33:37
Speaker 2: just wondering that we have so many blanks to feel
33:40
Speaker 2: when it comes to Brian Coberger, and much of what
33:43
Speaker 2: we're discussing will never come before a jury. It's not
33:50
Speaker 2: primitive of who committed the murders, but I still want
33:55
Speaker 2: to know. I would like to know when did he
33:58
Speaker 2: first present as a child of having some sort of
34:02
Speaker 2: a difference, something different about him, and what would that
34:06
Speaker 2: symptom have been what was his first peeping tom, how
34:11
Speaker 2: did he manifest in puberty in high school? Why did
34:16
Speaker 2: he go all the way across the country to WSU.
34:19
Speaker 2: I mean, when did he first begin stalking these victims
34:22
Speaker 2: spying on them? And how many other victims are there
34:27
Speaker 2: out there? We didn't even get to touch on the
34:32
Speaker 2: highly coincidental case of another female neighbor in the King
34:37
Speaker 2: Road area having her items taken from her car, which
34:40
Speaker 2: that doesn't necessarily connect to Coburger. But someone went into
34:44
Speaker 2: a suitcase, got out her underwear, did god only knows
34:49
Speaker 2: what it with it, and then put it in the
34:52
Speaker 2: door of her car. Now that's sounding like Coburger now.
35:00
Speaker 2: And you know, doctor Bethany, when you do this for
35:04
Speaker 2: so long, you have a sixth sense about what's connected
35:09
Speaker 2: to someone and what is not. I found the Smithers murderer.
35:15
Speaker 3: While I was.
35:17
Speaker 2: Interested in the fact that the Coburger parents were called
35:21
Speaker 2: to testify, I did not see that as connected to
35:26
Speaker 2: Coburger for many different reasons. I thought the grand jury
35:32
Speaker 2: was bringing them in to basically rule Coburger out as
35:37
Speaker 2: part of an investigation, and that did in fact turn
35:41
Speaker 2: out to be true. But I still contend that moving
35:45
Speaker 2: the colleagues items around her home and the attacks on
35:49
Speaker 2: King Road.
35:50
Speaker 3: Are not his first.
35:52
Speaker 2: I don't know what they were, but there was at
35:56
Speaker 2: least one, if not many, more preceding incidents, Doctor Bethany.
36:01
Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us.
36:02
Speaker 2: I've got so many other questions to ask you, but
36:05
Speaker 2: I want more facts before I can formulate the correct questions.
36:08
Speaker 3: Thank you, doctor Bethany Marshall