Latest / Outside The Therapy Room / Episode 74 - Porn, Shame & the Cycle We Get Stuck In with Josh Dale

Transcript

Episode 74 - Porn, Shame & the Cycle We Get Stuck In with Josh Dale · Outside The Therapy Room

0:18
SPEAKER_02: We'll be chatting about everything from mental health and relationship to media integrated.
0:23
SPEAKER_02: As well as personal experiences and reflections.
0:26
SPEAKER_02: All in the hopes of normalizing our humanness and helping you see that you're not alone.
0:31
SPEAKER_02: This is Outside the Therapy Room.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Hi everyone.
0:34
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Outside the Therapy Room.
0:37
SPEAKER_02: Today we are joined by Josh Dale.
0:39
SPEAKER_02: Hi, Josh.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Hey, how's it going?
0:42
SPEAKER_02: Good, thanks.
0:42
SPEAKER_02: How are you?
0:43
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm good.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: A nice way to start the Monday.
0:47
SPEAKER_00: Nice conversation.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'm excited.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for coming on.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: So today we are talking about, as you may have seen in the title, we're talking about porn and men's mental health, which can be a sensitive topic for some.
1:02
SPEAKER_02: So this is your disclaimer.
1:04
SPEAKER_02: If you're uncomfortable with the topic, then maybe check out one of our other episodes.
1:09
SPEAKER_02: But this is a really great conversation that I've seen a lot in my work with male clients.
1:15
SPEAKER_02: And obviously with your expertise, I thought it would be a great opportunity for us to talk and maybe help support folks who maybe are uncomfortable to bring this up with friends, family, their therapists, or any other support they may have.
1:28
SPEAKER_02: So thank you so much for being here.
1:31
SPEAKER_02: To get started and outside of the therapy room, I want to hear a little bit about you.
1:35
SPEAKER_02: So can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the work that you do?
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: So uh I'm a psychotherapist, registered psychotherapist.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: And I also decided, um, just through the way things that you know can happen in life, talking to different people, networking, I got into this great trauma training.
1:52
SPEAKER_00: I know that's a buzzword in in therapy, but this one was amazing.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: And so I really got into um trauma work and attachment work and how that speaks to our nervous system or emotions.
2:04
SPEAKER_00: And so I just do a lot of that work.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: And so when it comes to things like addiction, when it comes to things like pornography, um, yeah, I it's something that I like to kind of give the space for clients, right?
2:16
SPEAKER_00: The safe space where they can come in, they can share.
2:19
SPEAKER_00: There's the non-judgment, we can see why it's there.
2:22
SPEAKER_00: And so yeah, I do a lot of work within trauma and attachment.
2:26
SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, I've been practicing probably for about three years initially as a psychotherapist, but back in the day, I was an addictions counselor before there was even a CRPO, uh, before there was a registered thing.
2:40
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, been in the counseling field, the helping profession for for quite a while.
2:43
SPEAKER_00: Love it, and I'm hoping for a long career.
2:46
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
2:47
SPEAKER_02: And congratulations, you just branched out to your own practice, life while I did.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: I did, yes, life well.
2:53
SPEAKER_00: So I soft launched in March and then fully launched in June, uh, which is an interesting time to launch because that's when clients are usually away.
3:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, summer camping or whatever, vacation.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And so is it interesting to have to launch?
3:07
SPEAKER_00: But it gave me time to learn about the business side that they don't really teach you in school.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it's been exciting.
3:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's amazing.
3:15
SPEAKER_02: And because we're outside the therapy room, I want to hear a little bit about you outside of your profession.
3:20
SPEAKER_02: So whatever you're comfortable sharing.
3:23
SPEAKER_00: Sure.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh, I really like the creative scene.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: I really I spent a lot of time probably since oh my gosh, 12, 13 writing poetry or spoken word, that kind of stuff.
3:35
SPEAKER_00: So I love doing that stuff, gets the creative juices flowing, maybe some creating things online, and then I also like to be active.
3:43
SPEAKER_00: So do lots of sports.
3:44
SPEAKER_00: Actually, this summer I was playing like three or four different sports until I got a sports injury, uh, which sucked because then everything kind of stopped from there.
3:53
SPEAKER_00: But I love sports, I love uh creative things.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: One of the big things, I'm very competitive when it comes to like board games and stuff, and like a healthy competitive, like I'm not throwing things, but I really love board games.
4:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, give me a like a board game party any day um with people, love people.
4:11
SPEAKER_00: So that's yeah, that's my gym.
4:14
SPEAKER_02: What's your board game?
4:15
SPEAKER_02: Because we also are like a family board game.
4:17
SPEAKER_02: We love bringing board games to like Thanksgiving this weekend, board games.
4:21
SPEAKER_02: So, what's like your go-to?
4:23
SPEAKER_00: There's a bunch.
4:24
SPEAKER_00: Uh my fans and I do a lot.
4:26
SPEAKER_00: So we do something called Monopoly Deal, so it's a bit quicker than your your average Monopoly.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: It's a card game, right?
4:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: So we do that.
4:34
SPEAKER_00: I love Ticket to Ride.
4:36
SPEAKER_00: There's a game called Deception, which is really good.
4:39
SPEAKER_00: Kind of blends like clue together with um like a game called Mafia, if you've ever played it.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: But yeah, Deception's a very good game.
4:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think of other games that we play um as a group.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: Uh, but those are the ones coming to my mind for now.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: Do you have favorite ones?
4:56
SPEAKER_02: Like what's your um I love code names, but I feel like Oh, yeah.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that's the one I yeah.
5:02
SPEAKER_02: I feel like you need the right crowd for code names, though, sometimes.
5:06
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then um my brother got me into Catan.
5:11
SPEAKER_02: And because I've been like winner for like the three times I've played, it's I like it now because I'm good at it.
5:17
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
5:18
SPEAKER_02: But there's so many, they're so fun, and they're just a fun way to kind of be with people, right?
5:23
SPEAKER_02: And you're doing something together.
5:25
SPEAKER_02: As long as no tables are being flipped over, then it's fun.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Are you competitive though?
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Like are you you have a little competitive streak?
5:31
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes.
5:32
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I can be, yeah.
5:34
SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I can be competitive, but um, hey, this could be a whole other episode in the future.
5:39
SPEAKER_02: Four games during family time.
5:41
SPEAKER_02: But thank you so much.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: It's so great to hear about you know, other therapists around here and you know, all the amazing work that you're doing and you know, using your creativity that you do as a hobby also as part of your practice is really cool.
5:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
5:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_02: So jumping into our topic, um, I think I was mentioning before we started recording that um I don't work in addictions, but I have had a lot of clients who are male who are maybe coming to me for other reasons.
6:09
SPEAKER_02: And somewhere through our therapeutic journey, we end up having like the porn ends up coming into the therapy room and we start talking a little bit about it.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: And for the most part, when that has happened, there's just so much emotion that a man is feeling behind disclosing that they, you know, maybe watch porn, how frequent they watch it, how much they watch it.
6:33
SPEAKER_02: So when you hear someone say, I think I have a problem with porn, what do you what's usually underneath that statement for you?
6:42
SPEAKER_00: I think even getting to that statement, like I I've worked with with lots of men who, you know, it takes a while sometimes to even get to that, to be able to say, Hey, uh, you know, I've been struggling with watching pornography.
6:56
SPEAKER_00: As you said, I've even as you and I were talking, the sense of shame that is there, right?
7:00
SPEAKER_00: This piece of shame of uh something maybe I've been hiding from you know my partner or something that um you know has caused issues within you know time management and it's impeding in their daily life.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: Like there's a lot of shame that's around it.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: Um and so just even getting to that place where they're like, hey, I've been struggling with this, like that's that's huge.
7:24
SPEAKER_00: But usually what's under it is is um I find it in a sense of like there's usually it's usually a function for something maybe a bit deeper, things that maybe they haven't faced or processed, unprocessed trauma or grief, a need for soothing, a need for safety, a need to escape, a need to distract.
7:47
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, when clients come and say, hey, I've been struggling with this, we try to break down that shame by being like, Hey, you're not just like a bad person, or you're not just stuck forever in this, or you're not you're not intentionally trying to hurt your partner.
8:00
SPEAKER_00: There's usually something deeper going on.
8:02
SPEAKER_00: So let's get to that deeper thing.
8:04
SPEAKER_00: Let's push through the shame, let's break through the shame, let's break down the shame.
8:08
SPEAKER_00: Let's get to maybe what's happening deeper and can see why it's there, but also what maybe we need to do so that we get to that deeper place and we also get to address the yeah, pornography usage.
8:19
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
8:20
SPEAKER_02: I love that you shared that because I think a lot of the times people think of you know somebody watching porn as it being solely about sex.
8:28
SPEAKER_02: And it's not, it's about self-soothing, it's about, you know, their experience underneath all of that.
8:33
SPEAKER_02: And so it's great to hear you say that as well.
8:36
SPEAKER_02: And I think we're gonna talk a little bit more throughout this episode, too, to kind of understand, you know, all of the different things that you know maybe occurring to a person that is causing them to use porn as a coping strategy.
8:48
SPEAKER_02: But I think that's often a like a myth or a misunderstanding that somebody going or looking at porn is just for sex.
8:59
SPEAKER_02: Right.
9:00
SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's not.
9:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
9:03
SPEAKER_00: Way much more than than and and and oftentimes you'll as you do this work with people, you'll start to see, wow, okay, this isn't like it could be, it could have been anything for them, yeah, for whatever reason, maybe influences in their life or you know, experiences when they were a young person, pornography is just the thing they gravitated towards, but it could be anything, it could be gambling, it could be shopping, it could be so many other things, because those things again are the function, right?
9:31
SPEAKER_00: Um, of helping this person maybe not face something, or help them face something, or avoid something, or soothe that that hurt feeling.
9:41
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, it's it's often oftentimes it won't be, hey, I'm just like a sex addict, or hey, it's just purely about sex for me.
9:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, no, it's actually about those deeper things and the what it does to the nervous system, what it does to your brain, what it provides you in the midst of those times that maybe you're hurting.
9:57
SPEAKER_00: And so I like how you yeah, you really highlighted that.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: It's not um that myth of oh, it's just about sex, it's just this person is a sex addict or has a sex addiction, or it's solely about this.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: No, there's so much more.
10:10
SPEAKER_00: It's that iceberg image, right?
10:11
SPEAKER_00: There's so much more below the surface.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
10:14
SPEAKER_02: I like that visual of the iceberg for sure.
10:17
SPEAKER_02: So, you know, speaking about that being missed often, what I guess why can porn become a coping strategy for someone?
10:28
SPEAKER_00: With pornography, it it has such a um uh a multifaceted impact on us, right?
10:36
SPEAKER_00: You have different uh hormones, different neurochemicals that are being produced um when you're engaging in pornography.
10:44
SPEAKER_00: Things like oxytocin, that is this love and bonding chemical, right?
10:50
SPEAKER_00: That feels good for someone who's maybe feeling alone or feeling um you know disconnected.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: This is something that they can go to, that they're in control of, that they can have it whenever they want.
11:02
SPEAKER_00: Then you have things like serotonin, endorphins, dopamine, these things that involve uh pleasure, mood, feeling, reward, right?
11:12
SPEAKER_00: And as that's kind of within the system and floods the system, it's such a comforting and good feeling.
11:19
SPEAKER_00: Now, think of that.
11:20
SPEAKER_00: Think of maybe I like to reduce this um to when we're maybe children, right?
11:26
SPEAKER_00: And think of a child that is feeling hurt or disconnected or alone, right?
11:30
SPEAKER_00: You want to comfort them.
11:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's the same kind of concept that's happening here is this person is feeling away, right?
11:38
SPEAKER_00: And pornography becomes this sense of, or can become this sense of this comfort, right?
11:45
SPEAKER_00: This place to escape to, this safety net, uh, this feeling, like you said, of soothing, this way to calm down, right?
11:54
SPEAKER_00: And so, of course, that would be such a thing that people gravitate towards, especially if that's the thing it produced.
11:59
SPEAKER_00: Now, imagine it didn't produce all those neurochemicals and all this good feeling within our body.
12:04
SPEAKER_00: It probably wouldn't be something that people go to.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: But because it does, it becomes one of the things that maybe people gravitate to more often than not.
12:13
SPEAKER_02: I think the accessibility piece is also something that we might need to bring up because it is it's accessible.
12:21
SPEAKER_02: It's like you're there on your own.
12:23
SPEAKER_02: If you need it, then that's something that you can do.
12:25
SPEAKER_02: And I mean, with everything else, that um can I guess support a person through it, but it is also it's within reach, right?
12:34
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very accessible.
12:35
SPEAKER_00: I think you could even take that a bit further.
12:37
SPEAKER_00: It's almost kind of pushed in your face.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: It's not even like it's there if you want it.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: It's like here it is in in advertising and this, and like I you'll see commercials that it's like, what does this have to do with any sort of sexual intimacy or anything?
12:53
SPEAKER_00: It's like a I don't know, for a tennis racket.
12:56
SPEAKER_00: It's and it's like, and and it's just this sexual kind of um yeah, um thing in your face that's like, hey, right, this is this is what sells, I guess.
13:09
SPEAKER_00: And so not even just accessible, but it's you'll see it often in the way that our brains work.
13:14
SPEAKER_00: Think about it, it works with like consistency and pattern recognition.
13:18
SPEAKER_00: And as this thing is kind of pushed on you, right, over time your brain's like, hey, maybe this is something that that we can go towards.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: Hey, this is easy, hey, it's right there.
13:26
SPEAKER_00: Hey, we have it in our phone, we have it on our computer, hey, right?
13:30
SPEAKER_00: It's on TV, it's in our it's in our TV shows, right?
13:34
SPEAKER_00: Let's let's step into that.
13:36
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, the accessibility piece is is huge because it's there's uh for anyone, right?
13:42
SPEAKER_00: This is why we see the even the ages, younger and younger, um, getting into pornography.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we're gonna talk about that a little later.
13:51
SPEAKER_02: Um, but you mentioned a couple of different maybe reasons why people will use that as a form of coping.
13:58
SPEAKER_02: But what kind of emotions or experiences might somebody maybe be trying to escape, soothe, or temporarily change through porn?
14:07
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there's a a wide array.
14:09
SPEAKER_00: It just depends client to client.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: I've seen it with fear, fear of the unknown, fear of the future is very scary.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: Uncertainty for people makes people feel out of control, it makes them feel unstable.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: And so uh if you have that feeling and you're feeling just unstable, you're feeling stressed, you're feeling tense, you're worried, obviously that's not somewhere where we want to be.
14:31
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is people end up gravitating towards something that can provide a sense of control, stability, a good feeling.
14:37
SPEAKER_00: And so if it's fear and worry, you'll often find people you know can go into uh pornography usage as a way to maybe escape that fear and worry for a minute to feel stable, whereas the fear and worry about the future and uncertainty has made them feel rocky.
14:53
SPEAKER_00: You can have things like as we talked about, guilt and shame, even so that even becomes that's a whole other topic, the shame cycle, right?
15:00
SPEAKER_00: But you can get in this sense of guilt and shame uh of things in your life of doing something wrong, and now people are mad at you.
15:06
SPEAKER_00: And and from an attachment lens, when people are mad at you or there's things building there, you start to feel this disconnect.
15:11
SPEAKER_00: And again, with pornography, oxytocin being one of those things that feels like love and bonding, you're feeling disconnected here in terms of attachment.
15:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, this is easy easily accessible over here, so you can gravitate towards that.
15:26
SPEAKER_00: And you have things like anxiety, right?
15:28
SPEAKER_00: I know we talked a little bit about fear, but even kind of anxiety, right?
15:33
SPEAKER_00: Not just about fear of the future uncertainty, but just a sense of anxiousness, this fight, constant fight or flight within our nervous system.
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Something like pornography temporarily kind of soothes that and mimics this rest and digest that we want to be in instead of this fight or flight.
15:49
SPEAKER_00: And so someone's anxious all the time, and it's like, I need something to help me feel calm.
15:56
SPEAKER_00: Well, that wide wide array of again hormones and neurochemicals that are released right during pornography usage.
16:04
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's something that can make people feel calm.
16:07
SPEAKER_00: So there's a wide array of these different emotions, grief, right?
16:12
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes uh grief and trauma, oftentimes it has to do with this sense of um there's some sort of overwhelm, there's some sort of stress, there's some sort of um bad feeling that is almost too much to handle, um, or I need a break from, I need a breather from that will push people into pornography.
16:37
SPEAKER_02: I mean, you see it so much, even just pushing people to sex.
16:41
SPEAKER_02: I think we see it a lot in the media of like, you know, being a funeral or you know, somebody's parent is going through a health crisis and someone's there and they engage in sex, and that becomes a whole plot of the of the movie.
16:55
SPEAKER_02: But it it it is kind of like a way of support, it's emotional and also the physical kind of support that you're needing.
17:02
SPEAKER_02: And I think maybe we should clarify when we're talking about porn, we're also talking about masturbation.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
17:08
SPEAKER_02: Um, and so those two things are kind of overlapped when we're talking about porn, just for folks to be on the same track.
17:15
SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, but one, I guess using porn and masturbation as a form of coping, you know, okay, that can seem okay.
17:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, things are healthy, that's all right.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: That's your kind of you got an opportunity to soothe, and now you can kind of go back to whatever the situation was beforehand, maybe with a clear head.
17:37
SPEAKER_02: But when does something that maybe started as an occasional behavior or an occasional coping strategy gradually become something that somebody relies on?
17:48
SPEAKER_02: So, why can that happen, especially around porn?
17:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, around porn, because it's so powerful, right?
17:54
SPEAKER_00: Our our brains are involved, right?
17:57
SPEAKER_00: We have these things called uh pathways, neuropathways.
18:00
SPEAKER_00: And the more time you do something, the more it strengthens that pathway, especially when it feels good, especially when there's all these great neurochemicals that are that are happening.
18:10
SPEAKER_00: The brain learns, oh my gosh, this is actually the thing that we want to use, right?
18:16
SPEAKER_00: And so it might be something that provides temporary release or comfort at the start, but then it becomes something um that you need to do, right?
18:25
SPEAKER_00: It becomes the most important thing um when you're feeling that way.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: So your brain kind of blocks out all these other things that you could do, like maybe talk to someone, or you know, maybe um go and get uh endorphins other ways, maybe through sports and exercise and all these kind of things, or you know, have conversations with loved ones.
18:47
SPEAKER_00: Your brain kind of blocks those out.
18:48
SPEAKER_00: And it's like, no, actually, pornography is the quickest, easy, and best way to do this.
18:53
SPEAKER_00: And so now it becomes a thing you're kind of almost attached to, connected to.
18:59
SPEAKER_00: And what happens is then you that you do that, and it creates this kind of this um this confirmation for your mind, for your brain, for your nervous system.
19:08
SPEAKER_00: This is the thing we need when we're feeling like this.
19:10
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is the thing we need when we're feeling like this.
19:12
SPEAKER_00: So when you start to feel like that, your body goes into you know, into gear and pushes you towards pornography itself.
19:21
SPEAKER_00: And so now you're stuck in this cycle, even if you don't want to, even if now this guilt and shame, you know, it's causing issues.
19:28
SPEAKER_00: Um, you've built those pathways, those pathways have been solidified to be like, no, this is the thing we need, right?
19:34
SPEAKER_00: And your body's very powerful.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: Your nervous system, these these chemicals are very powerful.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that even you'll try to fight it with willpower, but you'll still find yourself pushed towards pornography and masturbation.
19:45
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I feel like when our body senses something serving a purpose, it becomes attached, right?
19:50
SPEAKER_02: It's like, oh, this was good, this was easy.
19:53
SPEAKER_02: It's you know a lot harder to talk to my loved ones, and I don't want to sit in the vulnerability of this.
20:00
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, it's something, you know, these chemicals are wonderful, but they can also really, you know, make this coping strategy that maybe isn't the most um healthiest for us seem very attractive.
20:11
SPEAKER_02: So we keep going to it.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:13
SPEAKER_00: And because, like you said, the accessibility, like it's yeah, it's on on your phone, right?
20:18
SPEAKER_02: You can Instagram, you scroll and there's so much there.
20:21
SPEAKER_00: Right.
20:22
SPEAKER_00: Anything, and you can and so you can do it uh wherever, right?
20:26
SPEAKER_00: It's it's in the palm of your hand.
20:28
SPEAKER_00: You can hide it, you can like it's easily accessible.
20:31
SPEAKER_00: You don't have to drive to the gym, get changed, get ready, da-da-da, gotta go through that.
20:36
SPEAKER_00: Well, if I'm already feeling low, if I'm already feeling low capacity, kind of burnt, and and I don't want to do that, or I don't want to, you know, have anxiety and I don't want to face people at the gym.
20:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, you have this thing in the palm of your hand where you're able to engage, right?
20:50
SPEAKER_00: And so there comes in that accessibility piece as well, right?
20:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
20:56
SPEAKER_02: But accessibility piece is huge.
20:57
SPEAKER_02: It's so easy.
20:58
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, right.
20:59
SPEAKER_02: It's like, why not?
21:00
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:01
SPEAKER_02: Um, we you mentioned a little bit about like this cycle that we can get into.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: And so that's where things get a little bit complicated because someone might be using porn to escape a difficult emotion, but then afterwards, after the relief, after you know, feeling settled in, they might be dealing with a completely different set of difficult emotions.
21:22
SPEAKER_02: And so that's kind of like the, you know, difficult emotion, porn, temporary relief.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: And then we kind of move to shame and to much more difficult emotions, depending on, you know, where we are, how porn was discussed to us, our beliefs, our views, our faith, like all of that can kind of come into those more difficult emotions at the end.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: So can you kind of walk us through what that cycle might look like for somebody?
21:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
21:46
SPEAKER_00: There's there's one that I I talk about specifically, an actual cycle.
21:50
SPEAKER_00: You know, I call it the or it's called the trauma and addiction cycle, but um, it really explains a lot of these, whether you have actual trauma or it's just certain things you're dealing with.
22:00
SPEAKER_00: We have the sense of this pain, this stressor, this trigger um that that will go through it.
22:05
SPEAKER_00: It it's painful.
22:07
SPEAKER_00: And we will either want to escape it or not feel it.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Rightfully so, right?
22:12
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't like feeling bad.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, if I'm, I don't know, this is totally random, but you know, if I have had a snack in bed and there's crumbs on my back, and I'm like, I don't, I don't like that.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: What am I gonna do?
22:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna wipe away the crumbs.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I don't like feeling, or we don't like as people, we don't like feeling bad or negative or uh discomfort, right?
22:33
SPEAKER_00: Now think of something that's not crumbs, that's actually like you know, trauma, grief, uh, worry.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, like my work is um downtizing and laying off people.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: What's this gonna mean for me?
22:46
SPEAKER_00: Now there's uncertainty, right?
22:48
SPEAKER_00: So we have this thing that's overwhelming the system, and we need that sense of soothing, right?
22:53
SPEAKER_00: We need a relief, we need a release, we need uh a distraction, escape, whatever it might be.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: And we go to pornography, and that does create this temporary relief or release, and it feels good in the moment.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: I can feel calm.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm not thinking about what's going on at work.
23:12
SPEAKER_00: I am I am kind of in this place where my nervous system feels calm, it feels good, I feel relaxed, I feel um, you know, I have a clear head.
23:24
SPEAKER_00: But then because that's temporary, because that doesn't just last forever now, because it's temporary, we end up getting into this sense of, as you said, guilt and shame, right?
23:35
SPEAKER_00: And there could be a bunch of reasons why people feel it.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes you'll see a person who is in relationship um with their partner, and it's something that um they feel shameful for because it is feels like cheating on their partner.
23:52
SPEAKER_00: And so then there's the guilt and shame that they have engaged in that thing.
23:56
SPEAKER_00: The shame and guilt of my action, but also that now maybe I haven't disclosed it to my partner, and now I'm keeping it from them, and then the shame builds, and it's you know, they they then wrestle even internally.
24:09
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, I'm not a bad person and I'm not, I'm not trying to cheat.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: I just I just needed something, but again, and then they keep it in, and what happens is you continue on the cycle, right?
24:19
SPEAKER_00: That that job worry doesn't go away, right?
24:23
SPEAKER_00: And when that happens and your body's remembered, oh, pornography helped when we felt like crap the last time.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: You engage in that again, temporary relief, compounded shame, right?
24:34
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, I'm continuing to do this.
24:36
SPEAKER_00: Last time I knew this was bad, I felt the guilt and the shame.
24:40
SPEAKER_00: I thought that would deter me, right?
24:42
SPEAKER_00: Now this builds, right?
24:43
SPEAKER_00: And now I'm keeping this again from my partner, right?
24:47
SPEAKER_00: There could be a bunch of other reasons too, in terms of whether it's your faith, whether, whether you know, um it's been um uh porn and sexual release and sexual intimacy has been almost kind of demonized for a lot of people, right?
25:03
SPEAKER_00: Then when you engage in it again, you're gonna feel that guilt and shame.
25:07
SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes what happens, which is probably kind of something that you were trying to allude to as well, is um the usage now starts to bring shame.
25:17
SPEAKER_00: And so it becomes the release, but also that porn becomes the the release, the distraction, the soothing, but it also becomes a thing now, it's now uh giving you this sense of uh guilt and shame.
25:28
SPEAKER_00: And oftentimes what that leads to as well is this feeling of depression for a lot of people.
25:34
SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm stuck in a cycle, and the shame compounds, and you don't know what to do, and you don't want to do it, but then you continue, and then you're hiding this from this people, or you're beating yourself up, and it just becomes this yeah, this compounded shame, um, this confusing thing that's like, hey, this thing is helping me, but it's also hindering me.
25:54
SPEAKER_00: What do I do?
25:56
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
25:57
SPEAKER_02: It can be there's a lot there, right?
25:59
SPEAKER_02: Kind of this source that once and continues to be hoping and soothing now can sometimes be the trigger of those difficult emotions.
26:09
SPEAKER_02: And so it is a really hard cycle to get out of.
26:13
SPEAKER_02: And I know from like some of the experience I've had with previous clients, it's also been the, you know, but I respect women and now I'm watching this, and you know, I'm I'm a good person.
26:22
SPEAKER_02: I'm, you know, trying to kind of come back to their beliefs.
26:26
SPEAKER_02: And so then it kind of becomes an identity struggle of I'm I'm not this person, but I'm doing all of these things.
26:33
SPEAKER_02: And so it can be really, really difficult for a client to be in there.
26:38
SPEAKER_02: And then it makes sense that they don't want to talk about it, that they may have a really hard time bringing it up in therapy or with their group of friends or with their partner because there's already so much shame.
26:50
SPEAKER_02: And then there's the fear of judgment.
26:52
SPEAKER_02: You know, other people are gonna think that I'm an awful person for doing this, or you know, my partner's gonna think that I'm having or that I'm cheating or that this is a betrayal in some way.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
27:01
SPEAKER_02: So it can, yeah, it can just continue to build up.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
27:06
SPEAKER_00: That's why we want to create spaces like this or in therapy where we can talk about it without that shame, without that guilt, without that judgment, right?
27:16
SPEAKER_00: Giving people places to talk about it where it's like, okay, I don't have to hold this in.
27:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right.
27:21
SPEAKER_00: And I'm not one of the big things here, you just kind of sparked in my mind, is getting uh helping people understand that they're not stuck in this cycle.
27:29
SPEAKER_00: Because at that point, when you're getting into that shame, that compounded shame, when you're getting into that place where it feels like my willpower isn't strong enough to break me out of this cycle, what happens is people feel I'm just stuck.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:42
SPEAKER_00: And that builds on top of the emotions that you need soothing for, right?
27:47
SPEAKER_00: Stuckness for, oh my gosh, stuckness for clients, whether it's about pornography or not, is one of the things that that can bring a client's kind of nervous system and emotions to this low place where it's like, I need I need soothing, I need comfort.
28:00
SPEAKER_00: And so I think um allowing clients or people, I'll stop saying even just clients, allowing people having these conversations with people where it's like, hey, you're not stuck.
28:10
SPEAKER_00: You're you're not stuck.
28:12
SPEAKER_00: The body is beautiful.
28:13
SPEAKER_00: Uh, we're able to to relearn things, rewire things, we're able to find maybe different soothing methods.
28:22
SPEAKER_00: We're able to know, hey, what's going on in my system?
28:24
SPEAKER_00: We're able to get a bit more awareness of hey, what's going on, that I can feel, okay, I can take a bit more control.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: I don't just feel like I have to be led to this.
28:33
SPEAKER_00: I can choose other things.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that clients feel like, hey, I'm actually breaking out of this cycle.
28:39
SPEAKER_00: I see that boost mood and confidence and capacity in people.
28:44
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like less hopeless, yeah, right?
28:47
SPEAKER_02: They end up feeling less hope, and that stuck feeling can really feel hopeless.
28:51
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I'm stuck, I'm down, I can't get out of this.
28:55
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, you talked a little bit about this, but why can shame actually make the behavior harder to stop?
29:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:04
SPEAKER_00: Shame is so you're already dealing with, like you could see it maybe on layers too.
29:10
SPEAKER_00: You're already dealing with something, right?
29:13
SPEAKER_00: You're already dealing with a stressor, you're already dealing with a worry, right?
29:17
SPEAKER_00: And we deal with stressors and worries a lot, right?
29:19
SPEAKER_00: But when it comes to the time where we need uh need distraction or escape, it's obviously something that's that's um a bit more overwhelming.
29:27
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, I don't I don't mean to out you here and you can edit it out if you want, but you know, you you spilled your coffee, right?
29:33
SPEAKER_00: That's something this morning you spilled it on you, and you had to you had to figure that out.
29:37
SPEAKER_00: Like that's that could be a little bit of a stress.
29:39
SPEAKER_00: That could be a little bit like uh, right?
29:41
SPEAKER_00: And we we work through those things in the day, but when things become to the point overwhelming, or we need a break, or it's just yeah, where we need that release, that's that's already something we're dealing with.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: Now, when you add shame on top of that, it's not already like okay, I have this thing that I'm dealing with, but now it's also now it's I'm I'm I'm turning inward.
30:03
SPEAKER_00: Now I'm now I'm beating myself up.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: Now there's the the language and the view that I start to build about myself, right?
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I suck.
30:11
SPEAKER_00: I why can't I beat this?
30:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm bad, I'm awful, I'm you know, how could I do this to my partner?
30:17
SPEAKER_00: And you start to heap these these different maybe views of yourself or beliefs or phrases toward yourself.
30:26
SPEAKER_00: So now you're dealing with a whole other layer because again, it's not just uncertainty and your job anymore.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: Now it's this compounded thing of shame and it beats you up.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: And now think of it like if you were trying to climb a mountain, right?
30:41
SPEAKER_00: Or um, yeah, something that that that takes a bit of bit of uh effort, right?
30:47
SPEAKER_00: Let's say you're trying to climb a mountain and you had someone speaking to you.
30:52
SPEAKER_00: You suck, like you're not gonna do this, yeah.
30:55
SPEAKER_00: You know, you can't do this, look at you like da-da-da, like you haven't even trained for that long, and you have all this stuff heaped on you, it's gonna make it all the more hard for you to feel like you have the competent confidence and competence and capacity to climb this mountain.
31:09
SPEAKER_00: Same with this, right?
31:10
SPEAKER_00: If you're feeling like, okay, I'm dealing with these things in my life, and I'm I'm using this to get over that, and uh uh, now I'm wrestling uh with kind of identity things, right?
31:21
SPEAKER_00: And that's just adding weight onto me, right?
31:25
SPEAKER_00: And then shame feels like this heaviness, and shame feels like it's now pushing me back into the thing, like we said, pushing me back into the thing that I'm actually feeling shameful for.
31:37
SPEAKER_00: So it becomes the cycle, and think of it as a weight, you're just heaping more kind of insults, views, difficult things that actually make you feel less there.
31:48
SPEAKER_00: You actually brought up the word, it it actually uh creates the sense of hopelessness, right?
31:53
SPEAKER_00: Shame has the huge potential to do that.
31:56
SPEAKER_00: Is uh, I can't stop this thing, I'm bad, I suck, like things aren't going to change, especially with pornography, right?
32:03
SPEAKER_00: I see shame lead into such hopelessness for people.
32:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: I've seen it too.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: And I think you know, there's a moment when you're able to catch it, to be like, you know, this I'm in this cycle.
32:15
SPEAKER_02: I'm I don't like this anymore, so I'm never gonna do this again.
32:19
SPEAKER_02: And then they find themselves back at it again.
32:23
SPEAKER_02: And then I think that, like you said, it just kind of adds to that hopelessness because then it's like, shoo, I don't want to do this anymore.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: I want to find another coping strategy, I want to do this, but it's it's what they know, and it is a quick release, right?
32:37
SPEAKER_02: Like it's I know this is a like we do evidence, right?
32:40
SPEAKER_02: Like we did our little research using porn, it does help me.
32:45
SPEAKER_02: It does give me the sense of relief for those, however long I'm in that moment, I'm able to feel my mind be still.
32:53
SPEAKER_02: I'm able to be present, I'm able to be all of this.
32:55
SPEAKER_02: So in that moment, it really is helping them, but in this cycle, and then adding on top of that, like, oh no, I'm never gonna do that again.
33:02
SPEAKER_02: And then a somebody finding themselves back there, it is just like heavy.
33:07
SPEAKER_00: It's confusing.
33:08
SPEAKER_00: It's very confusing.
33:09
SPEAKER_02: It's so confusing, yeah.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: I talk about the language of the nervous system as safety.
33:15
SPEAKER_00: So the language of the nervous system is safety.
33:17
SPEAKER_00: And so as someone is feeling this uncertainty, this overwhelm, uh, whether it's grief, trauma, whatever it might be, right?
33:26
SPEAKER_00: Uh you know, anxiety, whatever it might be, there's something in them not feeling safe, right?
33:31
SPEAKER_00: And so porn becomes this kind of safety for them, right?
33:35
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's great and all, but then shame, right?
33:38
SPEAKER_00: If you had shame on top of that, um if you think of safety, I again bring it back to a child example, right?
33:46
SPEAKER_00: If you have a child who their coach or their parent is kind of heaping insults at them, right?
33:52
SPEAKER_00: Or like you can't do this, you're this, you're that.
33:54
SPEAKER_00: It's not safe for them, right?
33:56
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's not safe for them, it's not gonna have good impacts.
34:00
SPEAKER_00: And so again, if you think of it as yourself, you're looking for this sense of safety, right?
34:07
SPEAKER_00: Um porn becomes that temporarily, right?
34:10
SPEAKER_00: But then you have shame, which again, you're heaping all that stuff, you're wearing that, it's a weight.
34:15
SPEAKER_00: That's not safe for you.
34:17
SPEAKER_00: And so you have this confusion of this this cycle or this this pornography usage creates this temporary safety, but then I feel the shame and that's not safe.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: And so then I need pornography to feel safe, but then the shame and it's not safe, and it becomes this confusing thing for our nervous system, for our brain, for our understanding, right?
34:39
SPEAKER_00: Why do I keep going back?
34:41
SPEAKER_00: Um, when I know it makes me feel like this, but then I keep going back, but I know I shouldn't.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: And it and there's that cycle, right?
34:48
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that stuckness, the cycle, all the words we've been using.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: It just kind of leads back into itself.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: And even just hearing that back and forth, like that's so hard to hear.
34:59
SPEAKER_02: Like even though you're saying it as like an example, it's like, oh, like people are actually thinking this and you know, stuck kind of in that um what is that game when they're like pulling a tug of war.
35:14
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like a tug of war.
35:16
SPEAKER_02: It's like where where do I go here?
35:18
SPEAKER_02: It feels good, it feels safe.
35:19
SPEAKER_02: Oh no, I'm back to feeling unsafe right now, and it can just yeah, bring up a lot of that confusion.
35:24
SPEAKER_02: And you know, I think maybe that it just adds to more of that hopelessness, and then you know, bring it inward, don't let anybody see it.
35:34
SPEAKER_02: So I guess how does secrecy fit into this cycle?
35:38
SPEAKER_02: Because we talked about it a little bit with partner, with friends, with other people in the a person's life.
35:44
SPEAKER_02: But how do you see secrecy fitting into this kind of shame spiral?
35:49
SPEAKER_00: There's already um, there's already kind of a shame stigma around pornography usage, which is very interesting.
35:58
SPEAKER_00: Like this again, this could be this is just a thought coming up in the moment, but it's it's readily accessible, it's almost pushed on you, right?
36:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like sexual, um uh whether it's pornography itself or whether the the the people are still fully clothed or not, this idea of kind of sexual intimacy and and engaging in sexual acts is is widely pushed on us, but then there's the stigma around someone who uses uses porn, right?
36:26
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like, oh, that's like, oh, you're engaging in pornography.
36:30
SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like, you know, there's already this sense of shame on that already, right?
36:35
SPEAKER_00: And then you add a partner into that, right?
36:38
SPEAKER_00: A partner who maybe has expressed to you like they don't want pornography within the relationship, and now uh there's that second level of shame.
36:48
SPEAKER_00: It's like not only do I feel, oh, like I don't want to talk about this, already that initial stigma, but now I'm hurting my partner and I don't want to hurt my partner, right?
36:58
SPEAKER_00: Because I don't want to hurt my partner, I'm not gonna say it, right?
37:01
SPEAKER_00: But then that just builds and it builds and it builds.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: And so secrecy becomes this kind of self-protective thing.
37:07
SPEAKER_00: Remember, we're the language of the nervous system is safety, right?
37:12
SPEAKER_00: And so secrecy, as much as it seems like, oh, you're just dishonest, which again, in a relationship that's you know, you'll you'll deal with that, you'll figure it out, you'll talk about that, you have values of honesty and dishonesty.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: But at the core of it, oftentimes secrecy is this self-protection and it's this to feel safe.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: So you have all these different elements going on.
37:33
SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm trying to feel safe through the pornography, but then I feel unsafe through the shame.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: And to and then if I have to say it, that's gonna make me feel even more unsafe.
37:42
SPEAKER_00: So now I'm gonna go into self-protection by being secret, that gives me some sort of safety.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: And so, secrecy often is this defense mechanism, this coping strategy of I don't want to feel even worse.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: Because now, and yeah, right now, maybe it's only me feeling bad about myself, right?
37:58
SPEAKER_00: Now I have to add my partner in.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: Now I have to add someone else in.
38:02
SPEAKER_00: What are they gonna think of me?
38:03
SPEAKER_00: Now I have to worry about how I think of me and what they think of me, and so it's all the more safe and easier to keep that sense of secrecy, right?
38:12
SPEAKER_00: If I don't share, I can preserve some sort of safety for myself in this moment because I already feel like crap.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: So let's not add to that.
38:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
38:23
SPEAKER_02: What I found interesting of what you said, and I think may happen, is also as much as it's protection for themselves, they may also think that they're protecting other people, right?
38:33
SPEAKER_02: Then I'm not hurting my partner anymore.
38:35
SPEAKER_02: They're already going through enough stress, or our relationship already feels kind of rocky.
38:39
SPEAKER_02: And so if I bring this up, that's not going to be helpful for them either.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: So it is a um a sense of like self-preservation, but also we're trying to protect the other person, whoever they may be.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
38:52
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, right?
38:54
SPEAKER_00: And then it gets confusing because then it's like that just ends up being something that leads to again, um, more shame.
39:02
SPEAKER_00: And now the time frame, right?
39:03
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh my gosh, you know, at least uh at the start it was just well one or two times.
39:08
SPEAKER_00: Now it's been six months of me not telling my partner, right?
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Now it's like I I can't tell them because then I have to say, I hey, I kept this from you for six months, and then it becomes a year and then two years, and you know, and you're dealing with everything we've talked about so far.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: You're dealing with all that the shame, the secrecy, the buildup, the safety, uh, everything.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, you know, the the word coming to my mind right now is it's a it's exhausting.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: The cycle that they get into, it's very exhausting.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens in that exhaustion is sometimes what I see people is they just give themselves to the cycle.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna fight it anymore.
39:45
SPEAKER_00: Like I'm just defeated.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: So whatever.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: I'll just do it.
39:49
SPEAKER_00: And and and that's not stopping the shame for building up, it's still building up, but they're just like I'm helpless, it's exhausting.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: I can't fight it by myself.
39:57
SPEAKER_00: Um, so yeah, it's it's difficult, very difficult.
40:01
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's so challenging and it's so tough too, because there's so much of you know, internal beliefs, their, you know, uh values, their idea of themselves, and part of like their identity and the kind of partner, friend, whatever they want to be, and then just kind of sitting with us and just allowing it to take over.
40:22
SPEAKER_02: Like it's there's so there's so much there.
40:24
SPEAKER_02: But how do you actually interrupt the cycle?
40:27
SPEAKER_02: So we know it's difficult, we know it can be really confusing and feel really helpless for a person that's going through this.
40:34
SPEAKER_02: How can we support?
40:35
SPEAKER_02: Where is that little window when we can break up that cycle?
40:39
SPEAKER_00: I always say to people, awareness is is half the battle.
40:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, getting them a sense of awareness.
40:45
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you're not a and and and I guess awareness breaks down the shame too.
40:49
SPEAKER_00: It's like, hey, you're not a monster, you're not a bad person, or you don't suck, or you, you know, kind of um um uh breaking through those beliefs that have built.
41:00
SPEAKER_00: Because when you get awareness, they start to realize, oh, I'm not just a helpless person who doesn't care about my partner's feelings.
41:08
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh wow, um, there's something deeper going on here, and so awareness of the deeper thing going on, right?
41:15
SPEAKER_00: Like we said, pornography is that that, you know, it's that um we could talk about it as kind of a symptom or function, right?
41:24
SPEAKER_00: Function to escape, symptom of something deeper, of you know, deeper pain.
41:29
SPEAKER_00: And so when we start to realize that deeper thing, so let me give a hypothetical, right?
41:36
SPEAKER_00: Um, someone has been dealing with this sense of loneliness um for a long time, right?
41:43
SPEAKER_00: And nothing has really helped, and they've tried to get into relationships, and that hasn't helped, and maybe uh there's brokenness within their family, and maybe they don't taught me there's some some cutoff from family, maybe they have acquaintances but not you know real friends, right?
42:00
SPEAKER_00: And there's this buildup of of of loneliness of those feelings, right?
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Um, and over time that becomes this deep heaviness that becomes something that is is so overwhelming that they need a a switch, they need a change up, they need something, they need that safety net.
42:18
SPEAKER_00: I can't deal with this loneliness anymore, it's it's too much, right?
42:22
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is you go into whatever it is, but in this case, pornography, and again, because pornography is very powerful, it becomes maybe for the first time where they feel I'm not carrying where's that backpack, that weight of the loneliness I've been carrying for so many years, right?
42:41
SPEAKER_00: Now, again, it's only temporary, but but that's what kind of keeps bringing them back, is because it's like maybe for the first time I don't feel lonely.
42:49
SPEAKER_00: For this first time, I don't feel the weight of that, right?
42:52
SPEAKER_00: And so when we bring awareness to our clients of that, they start to go through this, we start to walk through that sense of loneliness with them.
43:01
SPEAKER_00: Here's what it's felt like, here's what it's been to carry, you know, what it's felt like to carry.
43:05
SPEAKER_00: Here's what I've been dealing with.
43:07
SPEAKER_00: And so we go after that loneliness piece.
43:09
SPEAKER_00: And as we start to go after that loneliness piece, what we don't do is say, um, hey, cold turkey, right?
43:15
SPEAKER_00: For some people, if they want to try that, yeah, again, you know, I'll walk through clients with that, but I'm never gonna push that onto someone.
43:23
SPEAKER_00: This has been your safety net.
43:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna yank that uh away from you right away.
43:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, and and I'll and I'll and I'll I'll take the shame out of that too.
43:31
SPEAKER_00: So, hey, you you know, if you find that as we're working through this, you go back to that, hey, just remember that um this is like building a muscle, right?
43:41
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna take a bit of time and we're not gonna put ourselves back into shame if it happens.
43:46
SPEAKER_00: This is something that we can discuss in the therapy room where there's no shame.
43:50
SPEAKER_00: You can process, oh, you know, I screwed up, da da da.
43:53
SPEAKER_00: Um, but we'll also focus on the work that you've been able to do.
43:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
43:58
SPEAKER_00: And then what I see is we Start to find different ways to maybe fill that void of loneliness.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: We start to break down beliefs, right?
44:06
SPEAKER_00: That people have because of the loneliness, right?
44:08
SPEAKER_00: I'm lonely because I'm not worthy of love, right?
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
44:13
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: So that's an even deeper layer now.
44:15
SPEAKER_00: It's like I'm not worthy of love.
44:17
SPEAKER_00: That's kind of the thing.
44:18
SPEAKER_00: And so anything can trigger that in the moment that brings them to this pornography usage.
44:24
SPEAKER_00: And so now we're at this awareness of this worthiness of love.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: So as we start to work on that and we start to find ways to break those core beliefs, right?
44:33
SPEAKER_00: And start to maybe um start to change their the way they see themselves or speak about themselves, right?
44:40
SPEAKER_00: Maybe bring builds up more confidence that they're able to step out into social settings a bit more, or they're able to be a bit more vulnerable with their friends.
44:47
SPEAKER_00: And now they have not just acquaintances, but they have maybe a one or two core friends.
44:52
SPEAKER_00: All of a sudden, they're not finding this trigger as um as imminent anymore.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: Maybe the loneliness is still there.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: You know, I've spent all these years with that, it hurts a bit, but it's not this thing maybe that starts to push them like you're you have no safety at all.
45:09
SPEAKER_00: You have to go into the thing that's gonna bring you safety.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: Now safety maybe becomes reaching out to these friends.
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Now safety maybe becomes you know something that they process cognitively, like, hey, yeah, right.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: Like I I'm actually someone who is loved.
45:26
SPEAKER_00: Like I I've made two friends in the last how long, right?
45:30
SPEAKER_00: And so, you know what?
45:31
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not lonely, right?
45:33
SPEAKER_00: And so as the awareness kicks into what we call maybe action, right?
45:38
SPEAKER_00: And we we start to take these actions, and what happens is your brain maybe creates new pathways of things to help when we do feel triggered, and it's not like, oh, I just have to go to the pornography.
45:52
SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, no, no.
45:54
SPEAKER_00: I have other things in place now, right, that I've learned, and I'm aware of what's going on.
45:58
SPEAKER_00: So when when these triggers come up, right, I can speak to them, right?
46:02
SPEAKER_00: I can speak to, hey, you know, I am feeling lonely right now, and I know in the past I've reached out to this thing, but you know what?
46:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, I have other things in place right now.
46:13
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to book a therapy session, I'm going to reach out to my clients, I'm going to do a journal exercise.
46:19
SPEAKER_00: I are uh I'm gonna reach out, sorry, to my friends.
46:22
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna do a journal exercise.
46:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to do um uh all these other things that I've learned that can bring safety.
46:29
SPEAKER_00: So at the core of it, what we're doing is we're finding where they feel unsafe at the core, and we're finding ways to bring in a sense of safety.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, that could be my bias.
46:39
SPEAKER_00: I see through the lens of safety because I I can't with a wide array of clients, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here, but a wide array of clients, they tell us not to see through a lens.
46:50
SPEAKER_00: They tell us like don't lens your, you know, don't lens when you're when you're working with clients because there's diversity.
46:56
SPEAKER_00: And I've tried not to, but as I work with a wide array of clients with all sorts of different issues, I'm I'm seeing safety at the core of almost all of them.
47:04
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
47:04
SPEAKER_03: Right?
47:04
SPEAKER_00: Or this lack of safety, and that's why they're feeling this way, and that's why they do this, or this happens.
47:09
SPEAKER_00: And so what I do with people, especially with with addiction, and and right now we're talking about pornography, is find that deeper thing where they're feeling unsafe and find other ways to bring in safety.
47:21
SPEAKER_00: And what happens is again, when you start to use new pathways, old pathways die, right?
47:27
SPEAKER_00: And so we start to find safety in other areas.
47:30
SPEAKER_00: The brain, I uh the brain or the nervous system.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: If I'm if I can paraphrase what's happening, they might be saying, Oh, there are other ways to have safety.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: Oh, we don't just have to go to this.
47:41
SPEAKER_00: Oh, these other things actually make me feel safe and good too.
47:45
SPEAKER_00: Oh, let's let's try these things out.
47:47
SPEAKER_00: Oh, these things are working.
47:49
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: Right.
47:50
SPEAKER_00: And so find that safety or where that safety is is kind of um needed.
47:57
SPEAKER_00: Figure out how to get into that safety and watch the cycle break.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: I've seen it happen so many times.
48:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I it's it honestly is such a privilege to watch that whole process, like as therapists when we're working with it with our clients.
48:11
SPEAKER_02: But I think for you know, obviously having a therapist support you through that finding, you know, through our sometimes sneaky questions, it can bring up a lot of awareness and curiosity in a place that feels safe.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
48:25
SPEAKER_02: And I think, you know, for clients who maybe aren't ready to take that step into therapy, like this is something you can do on your own.
48:33
SPEAKER_02: It can be obviously a more supported, you know, planned place to be in through therapy, but just notice how you're talking to yourself.
48:41
SPEAKER_02: Because as you pointed out, if you're climbing up a mountain, you have this voice just saying these awful things about you, that's not gonna help you get up the mountain any faster.
48:51
SPEAKER_02: If anything, you might stumble a little bit, you might give up, you might quit.
48:55
SPEAKER_02: But if we just pay attention and become curious as to why the voices in our head are saying what they're saying, that can sometimes be the first step to awareness.
49:07
SPEAKER_02: And then again, through your own work, through work with a therapist, then that can really branch out into recognizing what are these things that make us feel unsafe?
49:16
SPEAKER_02: What are these things that make us feel safe?
49:18
SPEAKER_02: And then we're kind of able to go from there.
49:21
SPEAKER_02: But it's really the messaging, the curiousness, the awareness that are really like the first steps, and then just like self-compassion all the time.
49:32
SPEAKER_02: Broken record on this podcast about self-compassion, but like you're okay, you're not a bad person.
49:37
SPEAKER_02: You, you know, um, we can sometimes in therapy, and I'm sure you've done this too, we can reframe that.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think you did it actually in the example that you gave of, you know, you that's pornography was what you used to feel safe in that moment.
49:51
SPEAKER_02: And that was the only tool you had.
49:53
SPEAKER_02: And so it's okay that you had it at that time.
49:55
SPEAKER_02: We can be thankful that it supported you during that time.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: And now maybe it's time to try something new.
50:01
SPEAKER_02: We don't need to shut it off or say, like, that's an a horrible thing.
50:05
SPEAKER_02: It's not, it served its purpose, and now we can find other things that you know maybe align with what the client is wanting now for what yeah, yeah.
50:14
SPEAKER_00: And that's I I think you did really, I love love self-compassion.
50:17
SPEAKER_00: Love it.
50:18
SPEAKER_00: It's part of what I talk about.
50:20
SPEAKER_00: Um, I talk about self-agency as being made up of of a lot of different things like um self-care, self-advocacy, um, self-leadership, self-compassion.
50:30
SPEAKER_00: This brings up the sense of self-agency where I'm able to feel more in control and better about myself in in these situations where I'm not led just by a feeling or a trigger, but I love the the the self-compassion piece.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: It's so needed, right?
50:44
SPEAKER_00: Again, um if we if we do I a lot I spark curiosity with my clients, even with myself, by bringing it uh a lot to like a young child, right?
50:57
SPEAKER_00: Think of a young child that um you know it's the opposite of self-compassion.
51:03
SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's blame, maybe it's it's shame, maybe it's whatever.
51:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's gonna hinder the child's confidence.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: That's going to shape how they speak about themselves, that's gonna shape, therefore, um how they make friends and how they deal with stress and all sorts of things.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: When you bring in maybe that self-compassion for that child, hey, hey, and and and that actually brings in curiosity.
51:25
SPEAKER_00: Hey, you know, instead of saying you're bad, it's like, hey, hey, what's going on here?
51:29
SPEAKER_00: Like, why did you feel the need to do that?
51:32
SPEAKER_00: Um, or tell me what was going through their mind as you were doing that.
51:35
SPEAKER_00: It's like, well, you know, I felt like blah, blah, blah.
51:39
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
51:40
SPEAKER_00: So when you're like feeling this way, that that made you feel, I don't know, upset.
51:45
SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, you felt like you just went into this anger thing, right?
51:48
SPEAKER_00: And the child's like, yeah, right.
51:50
SPEAKER_00: And self-compassion and curiosity allows us to see, oh, like, I'm not just bad, I'm not terrible.
51:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's something else going on here.
52:00
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, have self-compassion on yourself, that you're not just a monster, not just someone that's trying to hurt people, that there's most likely something that you've been dealing with that's been so overwhelming that you've needed safety.
52:12
SPEAKER_00: And the key piece that you said here is you can even recognize with that self-compassion, like, hey, this was a self-preservation, a safety thing.
52:23
SPEAKER_00: It might have served its purpose now, right?
52:26
SPEAKER_00: It might be, you know, now that I can have that curiosity, I can see this has served its purpose, right?
52:31
SPEAKER_00: And I don't have to beat myself up for the years that I've done it.
52:34
SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh wow, it was serving a purpose.
52:36
SPEAKER_00: It was serving a safety purpose, right?
52:39
SPEAKER_00: But now I'm getting into this place where I'm recognizing I want different um coping strategies.
52:46
SPEAKER_00: I want something different, maybe something a bit more healthy.
52:48
SPEAKER_00: And so I love this idea of self-compassion.
52:51
SPEAKER_00: I just I had to go to a little blurb or rant there because self-compassion is is beautiful.
52:56
SPEAKER_00: It allows us to yeah, see, it's it's it allows us the the ultimate reframe, right?
53:02
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
53:03
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't suck, or I'm not this, or I'm not, you know, I'm not stuck, or I'm not just you know, whatever, fill in the blank.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is what's been happening.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
53:16
SPEAKER_00: How do we get to something different?
53:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
53:19
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
53:20
SPEAKER_02: No, it's it's an amazing toolbox to have, or like a tool to have in your toolbox for sure.
53:26
SPEAKER_02: Um, moving into relationships, which we talked a little bit about.
53:31
SPEAKER_02: We sprinkled it, it's been discussed through our episode so far, but how I guess, yeah, how can problematic or secretive porn use affect a romantic relationship?
53:46
SPEAKER_00: Many did.
53:47
SPEAKER_00: I mean, there's there's some I probably can't even cover the amount of ways.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, you you you'll see things like um uh having a hard time um getting an erection, right?
54:01
SPEAKER_00: Or a rectile dysfunction or being aroused um with your partner because with pornography, um, there's maybe so much more uh variety and added stuff, and you get to be in more control.
54:14
SPEAKER_00: Maybe that's different than what you share with your partner.
54:17
SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it's going to hinder this sense of intimacy, right?
54:22
SPEAKER_00: It's going to hinder what happens.
54:24
SPEAKER_00: And your partner, here's the thing when you bring in the word secrecy, your partner might not know why.
54:29
SPEAKER_00: And so what's what's happening within that relationship is maybe built up resentment from your partner, or they're starting to beat themselves up.
54:36
SPEAKER_00: Like maybe my partner's just not attracted to me anymore.
54:38
SPEAKER_00: What is going on, right?
54:40
SPEAKER_00: And that's that's maybe causing a rift within the romantic relationship.
54:46
SPEAKER_00: Now your partner starts to draw away.
54:48
SPEAKER_00: Now you're wondering why your partner's starting to draw away.
54:51
SPEAKER_00: You can't understand.
54:52
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe you start to draw away as a self-protection thing.
54:55
SPEAKER_00: And now there's this elephant in the room.
54:57
SPEAKER_00: Now there's this wall that's up, right?
55:00
SPEAKER_00: And so you have things like um the actual physical, right?
55:05
SPEAKER_00: Erectile dysfunction, you know, having a hard time getting an orgasm or or or yeah, climaxing or any of that kind of stuff.
55:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, but then you have the the mental and emotional pieces within both you and your partner, right?
55:20
SPEAKER_00: And this thing builds up over time.
55:21
SPEAKER_00: Again, it becomes that elephant in the room that's causing distance between you two, right?
55:27
SPEAKER_00: And so secrecy is difficult to deal with because you're you're you're having your partner's having to fill in the blanks of what's happening.
55:35
SPEAKER_00: They don't know.
55:36
SPEAKER_00: They don't know that you're struggling with something, they don't know that um you're you're engaged in maybe pornography and masturbation, and it's become this cycle and addiction.
55:47
SPEAKER_00: And so they're trying to have to figure, you know, they're having to figure in blanks, right?
55:51
SPEAKER_00: And that's impacting them emotionally and how they show up in the relationship.
55:55
SPEAKER_00: And then you're wondering, okay, why are they showing up like this?
55:58
SPEAKER_00: And that becomes a cycle in and of itself.
56:01
SPEAKER_00: And so the secrecy piece within a relationship is is gonna cause disconnection, miscommunication, it's gonna cause that rift.
56:10
SPEAKER_02: And as you pointed out earlier, like sometimes the secrecy is like, oh, I'm not gonna share now.
56:15
SPEAKER_02: There, it's it's not the right time.
56:16
SPEAKER_02: And then months pass or years pass.
56:19
SPEAKER_02: And so I feel like a lot of the time some of the relationship problem isn't so much about the thing itself.
56:25
SPEAKER_02: So it might not be about the pornography, it might be the betrayal of keeping that secret um for the duration or for whatever, right?
56:33
SPEAKER_02: And so when the conversation finally happens, it can impact the relationship because of this secrecy and betrayal and and yeah, just emotional safety.
56:43
SPEAKER_00: And then here's what happened here, and and I'm I'm sure if there's someone who's listening that is going through this, this will be something that they they absolutely resonate with.
56:55
SPEAKER_00: Is after you maybe that secret comes out, right?
56:59
SPEAKER_00: Rightfully so, it's hurtful for that partner, right?
57:04
SPEAKER_00: Especially if it's already been talked about within the relationship that it is cheating, that kind of stuff, right?
57:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, it's gonna be it's gonna be that betrayal of trust for the partner.
57:14
SPEAKER_00: And then what that that per that person's gonna start to feel unsafe.
57:17
SPEAKER_00: And then what they're gonna need is safety, and so they're gonna expect like full communication and stoppage or pornography.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: And like we said, it's so hard to stop that cycle just like that.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: So then what's gonna happen is this person for safety is going to feel like I need I need you to not, right?
57:39
SPEAKER_00: I need this can't happen now that we talked about this, it can't happen, and that's gonna feel like an overwhelm to the person because it's like, well, this has been my safety net.
57:46
SPEAKER_00: And then they're like, I want, maybe they're like, I want to stop, right?
57:50
SPEAKER_00: But they and when they find themselves going back into it, it almost feels like a a pressure, so much of a pressure on on the the pornography user's side.
58:00
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is that adds to the feelings of shame, of guilt, of like, why can't I stop?
58:06
SPEAKER_00: My partner knows now, they're aware, and like we've talked about this, and I don't want to hurt them and they're hurt, and I want to do well, I don't want to screw up, and maybe you get a month, excuse me, a month or two where you've been able to do well and everything's good, but then it happens, and then it feels like, oh wow, now you're back at square one, and now your partner feels like also, oh my gosh, that this is just continuing to be a thing.
58:31
SPEAKER_00: And so you have both partners trying to make sense of what healing looks like, and and it just becomes a pressure and a strain for for both people.
58:40
SPEAKER_00: I've seen people go through that so many times where the person, the the user, um, the pornography user is like, um, I'm trying.
58:52
SPEAKER_00: Right, but no matter what I do, it just feels like it's not enough.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: It feels like I'm in a pit.
58:57
SPEAKER_00: A pit is a word that's been used in sessions.
58:59
SPEAKER_00: It feels like I'm in this pit because I've been you you know doing it for so many years.
59:03
SPEAKER_00: I'm in this pit.
59:04
SPEAKER_00: I can't get out.
59:05
SPEAKER_00: I try, I try to be open and honest with communication and that kind of stuff, and I'm doing well, but then it still seems like you know, they have these walls up, and then I feel defeated, and then what happens?
59:17
SPEAKER_00: I end up going back into this.
59:19
SPEAKER_00: And so you see this with both partners.
59:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, when you're maybe not on the page of that awareness of what healing needs to look like, of what's realistic.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: Um, that even in itself is a strain on both partners.
59:34
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
59:35
SPEAKER_02: You see it on social media a lot.
59:37
SPEAKER_02: I don't know where it's coming from.
59:38
SPEAKER_02: I don't think it's coming from therapists, but it's a lot of like, if they if they cared, then they would.
59:44
SPEAKER_01: Right.
59:45
SPEAKER_02: And so, like for the partner, being like, well, if they cared about me, then they would just stop.
59:50
SPEAKER_02: It's not that easy.
59:51
SPEAKER_02: And so, if that's kind of the messaging that's going on through somebody's head who's asking their partner to stop with pornography, it's so much more complicated than just, you know, like masturbating to completion.
1:00:05
SPEAKER_02: Like, there's so much more, as we've already talked about.
1:00:07
SPEAKER_02: And so that expectation from a partner can be really hard.
1:00:10
SPEAKER_02: And this is where couples counseling can sometimes be a helpful avenue to kind of figure that out.
1:00:15
SPEAKER_02: And, you know, I can have, I can totally validate and understand that from if we look at a female's partner perspective with their male partner who is engaging in porn, then there can be a lot of emotion.
1:00:29
SPEAKER_02: And most of the time it's going to be so towards themselves, right?
1:00:32
SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm not attractive enough, I'm not sexy enough, I don't do this enough, I don't do that, and really kind of attack themselves.
1:00:39
SPEAKER_02: And it's not that if they, you know, if both partners actually sat down and had a conversation, they might realize that if they have the words or the awareness, as we talked about earlier, to share exactly what's happening, that they are seeking porn as a form of coping or soothing.
1:00:55
SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it can be like it can bring up a lot for both partners, and that we don't even know their history in relationships or anything like that, right?
1:01:02
SPEAKER_02: So it's just so it's so personal to the couple, and yeah, it can be really, really hard for both partners, I think.
1:01:09
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's where awareness, communication, support comes in.
1:01:15
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:01:16
SPEAKER_00: Because at that point, sometimes I see couples in and um this is not just my bias as a therapist, but sometimes trying to do it on on your own, trying to work through this stuff on your own, especially maybe how deep the betrayal goes or how long the person's been using, or you know, the damage that's done within the relationship.
1:01:35
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it can be so helpful to seek outside support that can help you make sense of what's going on, bring in that awareness, bring in the communication, honor each other's feelings.
1:01:48
SPEAKER_00: Like, how do you how do you honor each other's feelings now that you know what's actually going on?
1:01:52
SPEAKER_00: Like the person that feels betrayed, right?
1:01:54
SPEAKER_00: We don't want to overlook them by being like, Yeah, but this is a function for something deeper.
1:01:58
SPEAKER_00: We want to honor, hey, yeah, I get this this feels like betrayal, and those feelings are real, right?
1:02:04
SPEAKER_00: So, how do we work with both people, you know, simultaneously to the point where we can, you know, we can strengthen the couple relationship.
1:02:13
SPEAKER_00: And again, um, like you said, people come with histories and so it can be difficult, but this is where I advocate for outside support.
1:02:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:02:22
SPEAKER_02: Whatever that may look like for a person, obviously for us, we're biasing in like couples therapy, but it can be, you know, going to, you know, a pastor, somebody close to you, a family member, mentor, family member, mentor, yeah, anybody.
1:02:35
SPEAKER_02: But I think, and and my next question kind of recognizes why maybe having somebody else there that's kind of, you know, not in the partnership can be helpful avenues because sometimes there's so much blame and shame and having to defend and you know, having a third-party mediator can just be like, oh, wait, all emotions here are valid.
1:02:56
SPEAKER_02: Now let's everybody like take turns talking about it instead of just doing it on your own.
1:03:01
SPEAKER_02: Because conflict brings up a lot of our own behavior and our own thoughts.
1:03:07
SPEAKER_02: And so we might be wanting to openly listen to somebody, but we're also jumping to defend ourselves or why we're feeling unsafe.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
1:03:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're yeah, I'm telling you, safety is a big thing.
1:03:20
SPEAKER_02: It's a huge thing.
1:03:22
SPEAKER_02: But how can I guess like from here, if there is somebody listening and they're going through this in their partnership, like what would you suggest for couples to maybe start having a conversation about porn without immediately having it turned to blame and shame?
1:03:36
SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
1:03:37
SPEAKER_00: I think, I think the awareness of why it's there, and I think the partner, um, it's a very helpful thing.
1:03:46
SPEAKER_00: Actually, it's helpful for both.
1:03:47
SPEAKER_00: It's helpful for the individual, it's helpful for the partner, right?
1:03:51
SPEAKER_00: The safety's have been broken for the partner.
1:03:53
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, they could start to question themselves like, am I am I just not worth it?
1:03:58
SPEAKER_00: Am I not enough?
1:03:59
SPEAKER_00: Do I need to, am I just, you know, used for my body?
1:04:04
SPEAKER_00: Like if I don't uh have sex with my partner every day or twice a day, am I just not worth it now?
1:04:12
SPEAKER_00: And so therefore, yeah, I'm only used for my body, right?
1:04:15
SPEAKER_00: And and so um getting that sense of awareness for both of you, right?
1:04:21
SPEAKER_00: Of what's really happening, right?
1:04:24
SPEAKER_00: So that that person might not take away all the hurt and and and all that kind of stuff, but it might bring awareness for them and get allow their partner who's who's using to be able to share it's not you, you are beautiful, I love you, you know.
1:04:39
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not expecting, you know, sex every day.
1:04:43
SPEAKER_00: It's not about that, da-da-da, right?
1:04:46
SPEAKER_00: Like um, maybe hopefully soothing some of those worries that that your partner has, right?
1:04:53
SPEAKER_00: But then also the awareness on on your side to as you notice your partner's hurt, and now you're beating yourself up more.
1:05:00
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm a monster, why do I do this?
1:05:01
SPEAKER_00: Da-da-da.
1:05:02
SPEAKER_00: But you're also getting that awareness for yourself, why is this here?
1:05:05
SPEAKER_00: Why is this happening?
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:05:06
SPEAKER_00: And if you both can talk about that together, allowing yourself space to share and be open and honest and vulnerable, be safe with one another, that awareness piece starts to uh put things into perspective, and then you start to work as a team of like, okay, how do we how do we move forward in this now that we know what's going on, right?
1:05:26
SPEAKER_00: Now that maybe we're on the same page, now that maybe our questions are answered or you know, our curiosity has led somewhere, right?
1:05:35
SPEAKER_00: And we know that all this is a deeper thing.
1:05:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, how do we work as a team now?
1:05:40
SPEAKER_00: Right?
1:05:41
SPEAKER_00: Address the elephant in the room as best you can, right?
1:05:48
SPEAKER_00: Because the more that that's there, the more what happens for our brains for humans is um we fill in blanks.
1:05:55
SPEAKER_03: Right?
1:05:56
SPEAKER_00: Our amygdala, when our amygdala starts going, what happens is it starts.
1:06:00
SPEAKER_00: Fill in blanks based upon past experiences, based upon you know fear and hurt, right?
1:06:05
SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes we gotta leave no room for those blanks.
1:06:10
SPEAKER_00: Like, let's address the stuff.
1:06:11
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that maybe that's a series of conversations.
1:06:13
SPEAKER_00: Maybe trying to do it all that all at once is overwhelming.
1:06:16
SPEAKER_00: And it's just not because again, when when we're in the part of our brain that that is like fight or flight, and these these conversations can bring that.
1:06:24
SPEAKER_00: We're not in the part of our brain that's like, okay, I can understand and make sense of this.
1:06:28
SPEAKER_00: And so maybe it's a series of conversations, but we want to um we want to basically be in this place where we're not filling in blanks.
1:06:36
SPEAKER_00: Because oftentimes when we fill in blanks, it's in the space of fear, and that's going to think of the worst case.
1:06:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not this, I I am this, I am not this, right?
1:06:46
SPEAKER_00: Those are the conclusions you're going to come to.
1:06:48
SPEAKER_00: But if you can have a conversation with your partner, you both can build awareness of what's going on.
1:06:52
SPEAKER_00: You can address when the when the partner's like, Well, does it mean I'm this or like this?
1:06:57
SPEAKER_00: And and you have a chance to be like, No, it's not.
1:07:00
SPEAKER_00: See, when we talked about this, this is what's there, right?
1:07:03
SPEAKER_00: Or the person here.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: Right.
1:07:05
SPEAKER_00: Reassurance.
1:07:06
SPEAKER_00: There's there's the word.
1:07:07
SPEAKER_00: Um, but yeah, that that awareness.
1:07:09
SPEAKER_00: I know we've already brought up that word, but it's it's it's big.
1:07:12
SPEAKER_00: Um, because the the more that the blanks are filled in, the more you get um walls up, resentment, you get this sense of uh disconnect.
1:07:23
SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and that can be a whole other layer to break through.
1:07:27
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and just give understanding, like have space to try to understand your partner as a human.
1:07:34
SPEAKER_02: Maybe, and we we talk about I talk about this with clients sometimes in like parent relationships, but like try to see that person as a human, not with the attachment of them being your partner, because that comes with the emotional piece.
1:07:46
SPEAKER_02: It's important for it to be there, but just when they're sharing their story, just try to come from a place of understanding exactly what it is that they're saying.
1:07:56
SPEAKER_02: Um, but it can be it can be a very heavy conversation.
1:08:00
SPEAKER_02: And so having several or having you know a big conversation, then trying to make steps to find support to continue working on that.
1:08:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, that's the right, like that that's a good place to be in, right?
1:08:12
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's a difficult thing because what what you're talking about here and the words that that we have brought up, um, it's empathy, it really requires the sense of empathy.
1:08:23
SPEAKER_00: Like you just said it, you try to see them as a person and that understanding and and and pieces of reassurance, and like there is this sense of empathy that's needed, but on the other hand, um empathy requires vulnerability and that kind of stuff, but your your guards are up already, right?
1:08:42
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like, okay, we need empathy, but kind of um, and this the the the the the pathway to empathy has some obstacles, and so but what does it look like to get to that place of being able to share, understand, implement some of that empathy, build that empathy muscle so that we can understand each other, right?
1:09:04
SPEAKER_00: And what's safe for one another, what moving forward looks like.
1:09:07
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, I think empathy in this is needed.
1:09:10
SPEAKER_00: And so if you can start even there, of like, I know it might be hard, but what does empathy for both sides look like?
1:09:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I like that question.
1:09:20
SPEAKER_02: It's a good one.
1:09:21
SPEAKER_02: I also really briefly, I mentioned at the beginning, want to touch on the perspective of you know, bringing religion and faith into this conversation, you know, regardless of what religion you come in, there's often a message behind it that this isn't like pornography is a sin or not to be used and things like that.
1:09:42
SPEAKER_02: And so when somebody is, you know, um faithful to their religion and then they're engaging in these behaviors, that adds to that level of shame as we talked about before.
1:09:52
SPEAKER_02: And so, how can faith or personal values influence someone's experience or someone's coping with porn use?
1:10:01
SPEAKER_00: What happens is you have this standard or expectation, right?
1:10:06
SPEAKER_00: Um, that maybe has been ingrained in you.
1:10:08
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and and that has become a core belief within your system.
1:10:14
SPEAKER_00: This is bad, right?
1:10:16
SPEAKER_00: And so uh if we simplify things, this is bad.
1:10:20
SPEAKER_00: If I do, I am bad, right?
1:10:22
SPEAKER_00: And so um, you know, you might engage in it over time as you feel that guilt and the shame, and you know, because that core belief is there, you're like, oh yeah, I don't want to do this, it's bad, and I don't like feeling bad myself, and so ever.
1:10:36
SPEAKER_00: But what happens over time is you have this standard, this belief, this expectation that's been ingrained in you, and especially if you're walking within it, within community, it's now a community value and expectation and a pressure.
1:10:52
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens is you get into the cycle, right?
1:10:57
SPEAKER_00: And now you're kind of going against this thing that is an expectation or a belief, right?
1:11:03
SPEAKER_00: Now there's the shame of letting down or failing yourself, others, community, and the faith that you truly believe in, right?
1:11:13
SPEAKER_00: So that's that's multifaceted shame, right?
1:11:17
SPEAKER_00: That's so hard to deal with, especially when you bring in maybe um with faith that that works with like uh appeasing a deity or appeasing the divine, or like, you know, uh now it's not you mad at just mad at yourself, others mad at you, community mad at you.
1:11:35
SPEAKER_00: Now it's the divine mad at you, right?
1:11:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's a weight, right?
1:11:42
SPEAKER_00: It gets to the level of identity, right?
1:11:46
SPEAKER_00: It gets the and and that's that's a pretty big level.
1:11:49
SPEAKER_00: Um uh that's a pretty big depth when it comes to how we live in this world.
1:11:54
SPEAKER_00: A lot of stuff, consciously and subconsciously, is around the place of identity.
1:11:58
SPEAKER_00: And so what happens within faith and religion is now we're at that place of um it's shaping our identity, or now we're where our identity is again, this is bad, I am bad, right?
1:12:12
SPEAKER_00: And so, yeah, that added um pressure of religion um can be this place of shame to our core.
1:12:21
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:12:22
SPEAKER_02: And like I'm I'm letting everybody down that kind of messaging, right?
1:12:26
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah, I'm continuously failing my family, failing God, failing my faith, failing, you know, whatever.
1:12:32
SPEAKER_02: And so, yeah, it really like we've talked already about shame and that cycle, um, but it's just like another layer that gets added in there, and that can be really for folks.
1:12:42
SPEAKER_02: It's very big layer.
1:12:44
SPEAKER_02: The identity piece, right, is like a huge layer.
1:12:47
SPEAKER_02: And then again, in a partnership, if the the the collective partnership, the relationship also comes from a place of faith, there's so much there.
1:12:56
SPEAKER_02: Then when we have that conversation, and there may be again more layers on top of that conversation being really challenging.
1:13:05
SPEAKER_02: Um and then the elephant in the way, yeah.
1:13:09
SPEAKER_00: And then you just add it to add to it, yeah.
1:13:12
SPEAKER_00: To add, let's complicate it a bit more.
1:13:14
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you you're you're at whatever gathering that you had in a talk or a sermon or whatever is now preached on sexual morality or or you know, sexual sin or pornography or that.
1:13:27
SPEAKER_00: And again, now this is this is as you're sitting there.
1:13:32
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, this is me, and the shame and the guilt starts to build, and this and that.
1:13:37
SPEAKER_00: And usually the way those things are preached are like, hey, this is this is bad, you shouldn't be doing it, right?
1:13:43
SPEAKER_00: And so then then you start to build that guilt, right?
1:13:47
SPEAKER_00: And then that shame builds, and it's like, oh no, I'm a fraud, right?
1:13:50
SPEAKER_00: There's the piece of identity.
1:13:51
SPEAKER_00: Oh no, I'm a fraud, I'm here in my faith.
1:13:53
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm a leader within the the the church or faith or religion, and uh, but now I'm doing this, and then you have the secrecy on there because you can't tell people because then you know, and it just all builds again.
1:14:04
SPEAKER_00: I call it multifaceted shame, uh you know, that impacts you at the level of your identity um at your core.
1:14:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, and and it and it just adds to, and then ah, and then what happens is it it's the thing, it's one of the things that ends up pushing you further into needing a safety net, yeah.
1:14:26
SPEAKER_01: Right.
1:14:27
SPEAKER_00: And so it matters, it matters how we whether whatever faith, it matters how we walk people through this, right?
1:14:34
SPEAKER_00: Shame here's the thing.
1:14:35
SPEAKER_00: Uh, this is frustrating.
1:14:37
SPEAKER_00: Um, sometimes, and I have to see people as human too.
1:14:42
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes people will talk about shame and guilt as good motivators, and uh, and I'd say um not for a longevity, right?
1:14:55
SPEAKER_00: Oh, it made me work at once or time, but you're just pushing people into like, oh, you know, uh, I'm pushing you know, someone into their willpower, right?
1:15:03
SPEAKER_00: And if there's you know, and then if that fails, it's just gonna push them back into um further guilt and shame.
1:15:11
SPEAKER_00: I hate shame as a motivator, it does not work.
1:15:16
SPEAKER_00: I've seen it, maybe okay, it maybe works for uh because it's a it's uh it almost puts people into a fear, fear of failure, fear of letting down, fear of and so it's it shame as a motivator.
1:15:27
SPEAKER_00: I I see highly connected with fear, and it might last for a minute or two, but it's only dealing with the band-aid situation, it's not dealing with the the root or the depth, and it does not work for true freedom.
1:15:39
SPEAKER_00: And so what we have to do, and we bring in religion and faith, is we have to um we have to break down the walls of shame.
1:15:50
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:15:52
SPEAKER_02: That's like we we've talked about shame so much, and that's the biggest topic here, though, right?
1:15:58
SPEAKER_02: Like, that's the biggest thing I've heard attached to pornography.
1:16:03
SPEAKER_02: There, I'm I'm and I don't know, maybe I'm making assumptions, but I haven't seen anybody proudly say, like, oh yeah, I watch porn and masturbate like every night.
1:16:12
SPEAKER_02: Like nobody is talking about it proudly because there's a again, like so much of that shame that's attached to it.
1:16:20
SPEAKER_02: And so shame is just like secondary to the action, I think, for a lot of folks, maybe not everybody, but for a lot.
1:16:28
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:16:29
SPEAKER_02: Okay, moving into our next little area here, which is something that you had mentioned about porn now being consumed from a lot younger in the age, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but like kids that are a lot younger are now being introduced to porn, whether it's through their own curiosity or being shown porn from classmates or friends.
1:16:55
SPEAKER_02: And so what is your view of that?
1:16:58
SPEAKER_02: And what how do you manage, you know, supporting parents who are maybe wondering when to start having these conversations with, you know, their kids, but mostly sometimes having these conversations with their sons.
1:17:11
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:17:12
SPEAKER_00: Well, the way that again you're bringing in the word being brought in is gonna be this sense of shame, right?
1:17:19
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes these conversations are already stigmatized.
1:17:22
SPEAKER_00: Oftentimes these they're taboo or they're stigmatized, or um, we approach them in a way of of bad and good, right?
1:17:31
SPEAKER_00: Um we we we can't approach in that way anymore.
1:17:34
SPEAKER_00: Um, it it is it is obvious amongst practitioners that that uh young people are getting into pornography younger and younger.
1:17:43
SPEAKER_00: You have think of the how how tech has exploded in the last however many years, right?
1:17:48
SPEAKER_00: And the accessibility, there's that word again, that young people have um for pornography.
1:17:54
SPEAKER_00: There was this video, it doesn't really have to do with pornography, it has to do with tech, but where this uh I think it was like a three-year-old child, uh had an iPad, right?
1:18:04
SPEAKER_00: And their parents did what they could in terms of having the um all the settings, right?
1:18:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, uh regulated for this person, and they do certain times.
1:18:14
SPEAKER_00: They don't just let the child have a free-for-all.
1:18:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, but there were certain times, but they let their child, and this child was three and figured out a way to bypass so they could get on YouTube and and watch, and they weren't watching bad stuff, but get on YouTube and watch the stuff that their parents maybe had regulated or whatever.
1:18:33
SPEAKER_00: And and and it's just like the accessibility, um, kids with tech nowadays.
1:18:40
SPEAKER_00: Here's a thought I have as well, right?
1:18:43
SPEAKER_00: And and it's just a speculation that I have is um with our culture, with things being more accessible, and especially knowledge as well, with um the way that our nervous systems interact with one another, um, especially with COVID going down, there is this almost this um dysregulation, this this collective dysregulation that we can have, right?
1:19:06
SPEAKER_00: This collected collective anxiousness about the future and that kind of stuff.
1:19:10
SPEAKER_00: And and um this is impacting maybe children's um uh yeah, the way that they interact and explore the world, the way that their nervous systems are as they go through life, the way they handle stress.
1:19:25
SPEAKER_00: And so again, um, maybe their nervous systems are in this place already where it's not like, oh, it's just my childhood's just like remember back in the day where you know you could just go outside and and and play road hockey or play basketball outside or whatever, it's such a different life.
1:19:42
SPEAKER_00: And so when you bring in something that's soothing or something that's comforting, again, maybe there's all this more um uh recognition from our nervous system, like, oh, this is actually good.
1:19:55
SPEAKER_00: We've actually needed this at a younger and younger age.
1:19:58
SPEAKER_00: Because here's what you think of it um, we're seeing a younger and younger age, children uh burn out from stress, right?
1:20:07
SPEAKER_00: And that's one that we wouldn't think.
1:20:08
SPEAKER_00: We think stress and burnout midlife, right?
1:20:13
SPEAKER_00: And now you see young people and we're like, hey, what's what's going on, right?
1:20:17
SPEAKER_00: And as things are happening within culture that's impacting our kids' nervous systems, right?
1:20:23
SPEAKER_00: It makes all the more sense where something like pornography or like something like vaping, right?
1:20:29
SPEAKER_00: It's it may be just like at the start, just curiosity and temptation, but then it's something that their nervous system resonates with, and it's like, oh, we like this feeling, right?
1:20:40
SPEAKER_00: And so these pressures and expectations and all these things we have on our kids and the impacts on our nerve on their nervous system is something that makes them all the more susceptible to these things that are gonna bring some calming and soothing.
1:20:52
SPEAKER_00: And so, maybe as parents, maybe what we could do with our parents is figure out ways for our parents to help their um children process stress and emotions and be comfortable talking about that.
1:21:05
SPEAKER_00: So it's not even about pornography yet, it's about how do we get our children talking about emotions and regulating and giving them tools in their toolbox and you know, getting them active, right?
1:21:17
SPEAKER_00: Being active is a good way, not everyone has to be a sports, uh, I don't know, um sports phenomena or whatever, like top, you know, athlete, uh, but even getting out active using creativity and imagination is a way to process stress and metabolize stress and all that kind of stuff.
1:21:37
SPEAKER_00: So as we introduce and make these staples in our house, you might see children less susceptible to getting caught in that cycle, right?
1:21:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I I I've I've been speaking a bit.
1:21:50
SPEAKER_00: Do you want to break in here?
1:21:51
SPEAKER_02: And then well, I feel like okay, I have two boys, and so they're almost 11 and almost eight.
1:21:58
SPEAKER_02: So there's already kind of, you know, uh the big piece that you said that I I I think is so important for parents to know is just starting the conversation around emotions, because that starts from a young age of you know, creating the space to not shame your kiddo for crying, not shame your kiddo for having this big outburst of anger or whatever it could be, but to lead with curiosity to try to find that understanding because then they will go to you when there are things when they feel that level of safety to come to you and say, Hey, this happened, or I'm struggling with this, or I'm feeling really stressed about this.
1:22:37
SPEAKER_02: And it's just a good kind of um what I don't know what I'm trying to say.
1:22:44
SPEAKER_02: It's just like a good kind of base to have in your relate, like parent-child relationship.
1:22:49
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
1:22:50
SPEAKER_02: And then apart from that, there's so much happening now.
1:22:54
SPEAKER_02: You know, everyone's going through puberty at a much younger age than they did previously.
1:23:00
SPEAKER_02: There's girls in grade, you know, two and three that are getting their period, their very first period.
1:23:05
SPEAKER_02: And previously it was grade seven and eight.
1:23:08
SPEAKER_02: And so things are really starting to kind of get to a younger age based on our evolution to where we're at now.
1:23:15
SPEAKER_02: And I think also with that, we need to um get through our own shame of talking about sex and sexuality with our kiddos in an age-appropriate way.
1:23:24
SPEAKER_02: And so with my oldest, they're in a like age appropriate.
1:23:28
SPEAKER_02: You don't need to tell them all the you know in and outs of what's happening, but you can meet the kiddo where they are at emotionally in their like emotional maturity, but also just based on their age.
1:23:43
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, we've had conversations with like I've had conversations with my kiddos on, you know, um, like uh what happens in puberty for boys, what happens in puberty for girls also, like knowing what a menstrual cycle is and how to be supportive and not like, you know, be rude or embarrass somebody if they're, you know, have their period at school.
1:24:06
SPEAKER_02: And when they're really young, and I'm sure, you know, you know this as being in the profession, a lot of young kids masturbate when they're young as a form of self-soothing.
1:24:17
SPEAKER_02: And there's can be so much shame around like, oh my God, don't do that, don't ever do that again.
1:24:21
SPEAKER_02: And then the kids scared of doing this and they don't know what they did that was wrong.
1:24:25
SPEAKER_02: And so, you know, to share a little bit of my story with being a boy mom, my youngest would always watch TV with his hands down his pants, and it was fine, nothing was happening, everything was okay.
1:24:36
SPEAKER_02: Like he was just watching TV, but it ended up being a conversation of like, there's nothing wrong with you doing that, and there's appropriate places for you to do that, and maybe places where you shouldn't do that.
1:24:47
SPEAKER_02: And so if there's people, people over at our house, you know, maybe that's not gonna be the best time, but you can do that in your room.
1:24:54
SPEAKER_02: You can like so not to shame them to say like you can never do this again, but hey, here are places where it may be a little bit more appropriate and safe for you to do these things.
1:25:04
SPEAKER_02: And so it's just all about conversation.
1:25:07
SPEAKER_02: And I think too, you know, boundaries and consent is a big thing we've been talking about with with my boys, but it's also been about, you know, if you see some, if somebody shows you something that makes you feel uncomfortable, then you have a choice to make there.
1:25:24
SPEAKER_02: You don't need to watch it, you can turn, you can tell the kid you don't want to see it, you can tell a teacher, you can tell us whatever it could be.
1:25:30
SPEAKER_02: Um, I've heard from a few people in my personal life and um in my professional life whose kiddos um were introduced to porn on the school bus because an older kid was showing kids or because somebody was talking about it and then having really uncomfortable questions come home, right?
1:25:51
SPEAKER_02: And so it's just meet your kiddo where you're at and try to lead with curiosity and awareness instead of like jumping with shame as a parent, like guilty, it's scary to kind of hear that like there was a possibility of your kiddo being introduced to um like pornography at a young age.
1:26:10
SPEAKER_02: But if my kiddo comes home mentioning that, I'm gonna have to work really hard on my emotions and regulate my emotions to lead with curiosity and not with like shock and like what do you mean this happened, right?
1:26:23
SPEAKER_02: Like it we need to sometimes cool ourselves so that we can be there to support.
1:26:28
SPEAKER_00: I think I think if I were to kind of phrase that, it's it's almost like this non-judgmental coaching.
1:26:34
SPEAKER_00: There is coaching that needs to happen, it can't just be, you know, hey, you you're left to your own devices, right?
1:26:41
SPEAKER_00: Like, yeah, you know, just do your thing.
1:26:43
SPEAKER_00: And it can't be so much bubble wrap that that the you know, we we we could see rebellion in that, or like, don't tell me what to do, or whatever.
1:26:50
SPEAKER_00: But like this non-judgmental coaching where when it comes to like emotions and regulation, when it comes to that curiosity and exploration that people are going to have when they reach puberty or when they hear it uh around the schoolyard or on the bus when they talk about that for someone who has an openness um with their parents to talk about this kind of stuff, right?
1:27:13
SPEAKER_00: Um, they're gonna be in a better position to not find themselves maybe stuck in in one of those cycles, right?
1:27:19
SPEAKER_00: And then and I think there's there's oftentimes, so we talked about um kind of the curiosity, we talked about um kind of emotional regulation, we talked about non-judgmental spaces uh for the kiddos.
1:27:31
SPEAKER_00: Um there's also resources, like you said, like age-appropriate resources, whether it's um um you know, TV shows around um sex sexual education, right?
1:27:43
SPEAKER_00: Cartoons or something, right?
1:27:45
SPEAKER_00: Again, you can find what age they're uh directed towards, right?
1:27:50
SPEAKER_00: Um but but good things that people have done for the purpose of education that are still like um entertaining, right?
1:27:58
SPEAKER_00: Um to talk about with your kids.
1:28:00
SPEAKER_00: Or there's, you know, parent um parent team um talk nights sometimes.
1:28:06
SPEAKER_00: Like there would be professionals who go in and just have a space and you got food and you can eat together and they just do some education, right?
1:28:13
SPEAKER_00: But if we can if we can do this intentionally with our kiddos in a way that blends, like you said, curiosity, non-judgment, some coaching.
1:28:22
SPEAKER_00: I think our kids are in a great place where they're able to.
1:28:25
SPEAKER_00: If someone does bring up something, they can be like, Yeah, no, I'm good, right?
1:28:29
SPEAKER_00: As opposed to if they have no coaching, if they're left to their own devices, if they're they don't know how to process this, they might um yeah, they might handle that situation uh quite differently.
1:28:39
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
1:28:40
SPEAKER_02: And there's some great books too out there, like um like uh picture books that are really great, again, each appropriate to kind of talk about body and puberty and consent and all of those things, which are really great.
1:28:54
SPEAKER_02: But yeah, coming to the end of our episode, so informative.
1:28:59
SPEAKER_02: Um but how if there was a man right now that was listening to this podcast, if you could talk directly to him and he's stuck in the cycle, what would you want him to hear?
1:29:10
SPEAKER_00: I would want to hear him to hear um you're not alone.
1:29:15
SPEAKER_00: And I know that's a cliche and cheesy thing to say, but loneliness and and isolation within the cycle is very real because there's that secrecy, and so that you're not alone processing this, that it is possible to break out of the cycle, um, especially for people who have been in it for years and years and years.
1:29:34
SPEAKER_00: So you're not alone.
1:29:36
SPEAKER_00: It's possible to break out, have some self-compassion for yourself.
1:29:40
SPEAKER_00: All right, there's a reason we get caught in these cycles that are are much deeper than hey, we're just uh a bad person.
1:29:47
SPEAKER_00: Okay, and that um, yeah, there's many different resources and supports out there for you, for you specifically.
1:29:55
SPEAKER_00: There's great people, great, um, yeah, great people out there um that want to open up the conversation in a non-judgmental way, that are going to break through that shame, that you can open up and be vulnerable with, that they will hear you out, that they will help you make sense of things, that you don't have to go through this journey alone.
1:30:17
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, that's the big piece.
1:30:20
SPEAKER_02: You're not alone.
1:30:22
SPEAKER_02: And it sounds cliche, but it's the truth right now.
1:30:25
SPEAKER_00: Very true.
1:30:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and we talked about shame, you know, and and I think shame's like, what's wrong with me?
1:30:34
SPEAKER_02: And as if if it's the only thing you have to pick up from our conversation today with Josh, it's lead with curiosity.
1:30:41
SPEAKER_02: Curiosity says, what's happening for me right now, instead of there's something wrong with me, or I'm not, I'm not blank, I'm this.
1:30:50
SPEAKER_02: And so I think that feels like a better place to start with that place of curiosity.
1:30:54
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we'll say curiosity and compassion.
1:30:56
SPEAKER_00: There we go.
1:30:57
SPEAKER_00: The two C's.
1:30:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:30:58
SPEAKER_02: The two C's.
1:30:59
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you so much, Josh.
1:31:00
SPEAKER_02: This was such an informative episode.
1:31:03
SPEAKER_02: I really appreciate you being here.
1:31:04
SPEAKER_02: Where can folks find you?
1:31:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I would say I'm on Instagram.
1:31:09
SPEAKER_00: I do a lot of kind of postings throughout the week um and and ways that you can connect with me.
1:31:14
SPEAKER_00: Um, and so that is Josh.
1:31:17
SPEAKER_00: Uh or no, lifewell therapy is at life well therapy l-i-f e w e-l-l therapy.
1:31:25
SPEAKER_00: Um, and then my email is josh at lifewell therapy um dot ca.
1:31:32
SPEAKER_00: And that's my website as well.
1:31:34
SPEAKER_00: www.lifewell therapy.ca.
1:31:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, I was able to get all the domains and stuff that matched.
1:31:41
SPEAKER_00: So it's good.
1:31:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's where you can find me.
1:31:44
SPEAKER_00: You can email me, you can go to my website and connect with me, you can find me on Instagram, uh, whatever way.
1:31:52
SPEAKER_00: You can even just Google my name.
1:31:54
SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'll be there connected to Life Well Therapy.
1:31:57
SPEAKER_00: And I would love to work through um, yeah, whatever people are struggling with in this area and beyond together.
1:32:05
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:32:06
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
1:32:06
SPEAKER_02: We will make sure to have all of Josh's information in the show notes so it's an easy click and available there for you if you want to connect with him.
1:32:13
SPEAKER_02: But thank you again so much, Josh.
1:32:15
SPEAKER_02: I hope to have you back on the episode or on the uh podcast for another episode.
1:32:20
SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
1:32:21
SPEAKER_02: Um, so make sure to follow outside the therapy room on TikTok and Instagram and give Josh a follow at LifeWell, and we will see you all next time.
1:32:30
SPEAKER_02: Bye.
1:32:31
SPEAKER_00: See ya.
1:32:36
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for listening to Outside the Therapy Room.
1:32:38
SPEAKER_02: This podcast is intended for educational and entertainment purposes only.
1:32:43
SPEAKER_02: If you reside in Ontario and are interested in working with one of our therapists, please visit our website in the show notes.
1:32:50
SPEAKER_02: If you reside outside of Ontario, a quick Google search or search through psychology today will help you find a therapist near you.