Latest / Ministry Minded / Good Samaritans, Prodigal Sons, and the Need for Systematic Theologians with Eric Attinger

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Good Samaritans, Prodigal Sons, and the Need for Systematic Theologians with Eric Attinger · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're those types of guys where we thrive better when we plan less,
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: at least in terms of podcasts.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: At least, yeah, how about it?
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  Some areas that won't fly,
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  but for most people,
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  yeah,
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  we can definitely riff and it works out.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: It works out for us.
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  SPEAKER_01: What I want to do is,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's interesting,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you talk about synchronicities sometimes.
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  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's hilarious.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it is interesting,
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  the convergence of the fact that just recently we finished at
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  our church here in
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  SPEAKER_01: our Sunday school class,
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  SPEAKER_01: our adult Sunday school class.
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  We were finishing out a really long series all about systematic theology,
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  a.k.a.
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  SPEAKER_01: the ologies, as we lovingly termed it.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we just finished that and it actually stretched,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe like 14 months of lessons,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is crazy.
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  But that coincides with my very last class before I'm done with
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  my master's degree,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of hard to believe.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Climb the mountain.
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  SPEAKER_01: You're almost at the top.
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  But my very last class is a theology class,
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  which is kind of retreading some of that ground.
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  So I thought it'd be really good if you and I were able to kind
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  of rehash some of
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  SPEAKER_01: those things,
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  SPEAKER_01: go through some of those different areas of systematic theology.
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  is um let's kind of lay some groundwork in terms of why
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  theology is necessary
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  because i remember talking about this at the very beginning of
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  the ologies class
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  which is the idea that um some people have this notion that
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  they're like i don't
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  need theology i just i just love jesus yes yes we talk about or
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  can we unpack a
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  SPEAKER_01: little bit about how
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm going to play my card game.
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  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
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  SPEAKER_01: Can we talk about how kind of ludicrous that is?
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  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Could you imagine saying,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: we got like these 66 books and thousands of pages,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they're not necessary.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's basically what it's saying.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I get it.
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  The nice thing is,
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  obviously,
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  the best part about it is the thief on the cross method.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you don't
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  SPEAKER_00: Ever learn systematic theology, it won't send you to hell.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's definitely helpful and recommended, you know, like baptism.
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  You can technically go to heaven without being baptized,
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  but highly recommend it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's the way, you know, it's the way to be obedient in your faith.
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  And I think systematic theology is very important when you get
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  into these things
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  because it gives you that biblical worldview is why it's really important.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's good, obviously, Jesus is the only way.
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  SPEAKER_00: You only have to have faith in him to salvation.
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  SPEAKER_00: However,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you want to be here on earth and be a light and live Christ-like,
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  SPEAKER_00: you have to know what that means,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you have to know what's even going on.
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  And I think systematic theology does a good job of giving
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  people a really good
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  SPEAKER_00: biblical worldview.
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  So when things like sin pop up and you hear things in the world
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  like everybody's good,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's good people and there's bad people,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
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  SPEAKER_00: well,
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  SPEAKER_00: is that –
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  SPEAKER_00: Is that accurate because of the Bible?
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  And the nice thing about systematic theology to me is like so
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  many times people
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  take verses out of context where they'll say things like
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  there's good people and
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  they'll take a thing out of context or they'll add these verses
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  and cherry pick them.
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  But the best part about systematic theology is it doesn't allow
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  you to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It forms doctrines on all in context,
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  SPEAKER_00: all the 66 books and how these topics play out,
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  which really clarify and also protect you against false
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  teachers or people who
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  don't know their Bible and they want to make their worldly
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  point because they don't
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  SPEAKER_00: have a biblical foundation,
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  SPEAKER_00: and they're going to pull these verses to utilize that.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this hedges against that.
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  SPEAKER_00: It gives you good knowledge.
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  SPEAKER_00: overview of what do all 6-6 books together collectively say,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it should be cohesive because God wrote the whole thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: and it should make sense in that way.
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  So I think it does a really good job of understanding this is
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  helpful for any Christian,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether you're a pastor,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether you just started believing in the Lord and just found them.
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  It's really good to dive into these doctrines because it will
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  really set the
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  SPEAKER_00: groundwork for your Christian life moving forward.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think it is kind of funny to—
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_01: Any answer to that question is going to be a theological question.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
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  It's going to tell you a lot about where they are on the sort
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  of spectrum of
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  SPEAKER_01: orthodoxy or spectrum of theological thought.
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  And I think it's really fascinating because there is this weird
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  dividing line that
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  SPEAKER_01: sometimes gets drawn where it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: those people that say,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't need doctrine.
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  SPEAKER_01: I just love Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: It sounds...
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
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  it sounds like it's one of those things like how people always
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  go around and say
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  SPEAKER_00: these things that sound super profound,
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  SPEAKER_00: but they're really dumb if you get down to the bottom of it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like I know it sounds really philosophical.
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  SPEAKER_00: You sound so edgy and stuff,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it really it really doesn't add up in,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: in the end of things.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again, going back to it, all you do need is Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's people that never got into this stuff.
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  But again,
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  to do your due diligence as a believer and to understand Jesus
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  in his fullness.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like you said,
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  how many believers out there think that he was man for a part
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  of it and then he was
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  God for part of it because the way it was written because they
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  never did these studies.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is where all these crazy doctrines of Gnosticism in the past.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it still goes on today because people don't know who Jesus is.
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  SPEAKER_00: And like you said, you answer who is Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you say God or man, that's already a theological answer.
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  SPEAKER_00: Whether you even know it, you're partaking in a theological debate.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I love that this stuff gets down into the nitty gritty of everything.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again,
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  SPEAKER_00: just really gives you a better understanding,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think,
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  SPEAKER_00: for yourself and for everything around you.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's important,
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  SPEAKER_01: too,
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  SPEAKER_01: as we who belong to Jesus,
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  SPEAKER_01: that we are part of his church,
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  SPEAKER_01: understand what that entails,
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  SPEAKER_01: what that means.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, we say we believe in Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay, what does that mean?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's where theology comes in.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's where systematic theology comes in,
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  SPEAKER_01: because instead of trying to swallow the full gamut of Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: systematic theology specifically—
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  is a way in which we can somewhat compartmentalize the
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  theological truth of the Scripture.
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  SPEAKER_01: Again, it's not deriving something from somewhere else.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're getting it all from the Word of God and saying,
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  SPEAKER_01: okay,
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  SPEAKER_01: what does the Word of God actually reveal and say about the church,
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  SPEAKER_01: about Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: about the end of all things?
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  SPEAKER_01: What does it say about these really pertinent topics?
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  SPEAKER_01: And then the downstream point is that once those things are certain, then
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  SPEAKER_01: then we are able to more freely live,
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  SPEAKER_01: freely serve our neighbor,
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  freely use our spiritual gifts in the life of the church and so
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  on and so forth.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_00: And you see that,
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  SPEAKER_00: again,
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  people who don't dive into these things can get so many things
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  wrong because it's
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  SPEAKER_00: so easy because the Bible is such a big book.
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  SPEAKER_00: And again,
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  SPEAKER_00: just jumping in like a lot of people do,
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  SPEAKER_00: just jump in like,
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  SPEAKER_00: oh,
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  I'm just going to read this chapter and verse and just kind of
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  run with it.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is where you get these things that I see.
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  One of the most common problems I see in the American church
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  and even nonbelievers,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I'm sure you can attest to this,
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  is that still so many people think you've got to earn your way
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  into heaven,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you'll hear things like,
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  SPEAKER_00: I'm a good person.
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  And it says these kind of people won't get into heaven,
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  so I can't do these sins.
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  And if you do these sins,
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  you're not getting into heaven because that's what it says.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's like we've got to take things into the hole,
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  SPEAKER_00: and you obviously don't want to fall into the sins,
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  SPEAKER_00: and the Lord will change your heart in there.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's like just salvation itself,
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  SPEAKER_00: a theological discussion,
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  SPEAKER_00: and part of systematic theology is how do you get saved?
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  SPEAKER_00: What is justification?
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  SPEAKER_00: If you don't understand and you don't dive deeper into the justification,
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  SPEAKER_00: sanctification,
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  SPEAKER_00: and glorification,
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  SPEAKER_00: I talk about this a lot.
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  SPEAKER_00: You get mixed up where you think you have to be glorified.
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  SPEAKER_00: But the weird thing, glorification is also earned salvation.
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  in a lot of people's eyes because they take these out of
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  context or they don't read
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  SPEAKER_00: the Bible and they listen to,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: it's a whole book of good morals,
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  SPEAKER_00: what to do,
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  SPEAKER_00: what not to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And here's the good things you can do.
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  SPEAKER_00: And this is how you're a good person.
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  SPEAKER_00: This is how you're a bad person.
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  SPEAKER_00: If you do most good things, you'll get into heaven.
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  SPEAKER_00: And that's why when I hear these people tell me these kinds of things,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I've asked people before,
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  SPEAKER_00: I remember in college,
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  SPEAKER_00: the first time,
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  I think I actually got through to somebody about it was that we
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  got into this
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  SPEAKER_00: theological debate with some of my college friends at Penn State.
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  SPEAKER_00: And the one guy said,
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  SPEAKER_00: I don't really believe in God,
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  SPEAKER_00: but I do know – I'm sure there's an afterlife.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh, that's a really interesting concept.
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  SPEAKER_00: But it's really just about if you're good or not.
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  And there's actually a Catholic girl that was there and kind of
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  listening into the
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  debate and kind of chiming in here and there but just listening
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  to us talk back and forth.
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  SPEAKER_00: And at one point I just said to the guy – his name was Ryan.
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  SPEAKER_00: I said, Ryan, at what point do you become a bad person?
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  Like if you murder somebody,
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  if you steal,
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  how many points do you lose and how many gains?
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  And what is the point value to get in here and how do you keep
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  track and who's
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  SPEAKER_00: keeping track if there's –
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  And I was like,
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  there's no end to this of how are you good,
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  how are you bad?
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  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing about that in the Bible.
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  And even the Catholic girl who was listening said,
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  you know,
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  that makes a lot of sense.
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  And I think it was clicking to her because in a lot of Catholic backgrounds,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of this works-based salvation.
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  SPEAKER_00: So it was kind of eye-opening,
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  and it was interesting that it was happening to somebody who
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  was maybe agnostic even.
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  SPEAKER_00: We were having this conversation that came down to like,
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  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: this book,
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  SPEAKER_00: there's a lot of morals in it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's good to understand the Bible.
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  And because you want to be Christ-like,
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  you got to live how Christ lives,
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  right?
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  But at the same time,
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  the Bible doesn't say that is the way to achieve perfection.
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  SPEAKER_00: You only achieve it through faith in Christ,
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  SPEAKER_00: who then changes you and makes you morally better,
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  SPEAKER_00: not again.
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  SPEAKER_00: Because you're a good person.
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  SPEAKER_00: The Bible says you're a bad person made good by Christ.
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  So unpacking all this stuff in systematic theology can be so
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  helpful to people's
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  SPEAKER_00: journeys in the future,
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  SPEAKER_00: no matter how far along they've come,
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  SPEAKER_00: whether they're a new believer or they've been a believer for years,
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  because they might believe a lot of lies or verses that aren't
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  actually in there
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  SPEAKER_00: and can really throw people off.
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we get into the fact that,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I recently have just kind of been,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: harping on this,
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  SPEAKER_01: I guess is the way to say it.
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  But you and I have talked about a little bit where I think one
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  of the growing,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe not growing,
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  SPEAKER_01: maybe it's always been there,
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  SPEAKER_01: but one of the issues,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: be slang and just say one of the problems,
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  SPEAKER_01: but one of the issues I would say within the church in the modern age is
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  SPEAKER_01: is that people don't really know what their Bibles say.
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  SPEAKER_01: And,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you and I have talked about biblical illiteracy,
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  the fact that we don't really know what the Bible says or where
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  it says certain things.
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  SPEAKER_01: And again,
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  SPEAKER_01: I'm not trying to,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: preach a,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: you got to memorize chapter verse stuff.
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  SPEAKER_01: But if you don't, if you're not able to articulate that,
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  SPEAKER_01: what you believe about certain things, certain concepts.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like,
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  SPEAKER_01: for instance,
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  there's that common refrain that occurs whenever a calamity or
• 11:20
  whatever a tragedy strikes,
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's a person on the news report that's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I just don't understand why a loving God would let these types
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  of things happen.
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  SPEAKER_01: And
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  There's a lot of profound theological responses we should be
• 11:34
  able to give to that comment.
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  SPEAKER_01: However,
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  SPEAKER_01: if you're not well-versed in Scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to be like,
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  SPEAKER_01: that might throw you off.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the thing that we've talked about a lot,
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  SPEAKER_01: like the reason why we have so many...
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  SPEAKER_01: biblical discussions here at our church is just to verse people in,
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  SPEAKER_01: we could call it like the language of scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: not necessarily like memorizing chapter and verse,
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  SPEAKER_01: but like being familiar with what the Bible says about who God is.
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  And then when you're confronted with these things in the quote
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  unquote real world,
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  SPEAKER_01: when you're confronted with these things,
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  SPEAKER_01: either,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: through coworkers or family members or newscasts,
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  SPEAKER_01: You can make a more Christian response.
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  SPEAKER_01: You can give a more Christian response to that type of sentiment.
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  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely,
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  and that's a really big thing because that is something that
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  catches people off guard.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think it's an age-old question people always ask.
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  SPEAKER_00: If God is all-loving, why would he allow all this evil?
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  SPEAKER_00: If he doesn't cause it, why would he allow it?
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  SPEAKER_00: And there's biblical answers for that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: You have to know your Bible and say – and again,
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  SPEAKER_00: you don't need to know the verses,
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  SPEAKER_00: Genesis,
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  SPEAKER_00: whatever,
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  SPEAKER_00: it said this or whatever.
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  SPEAKER_00: But if you understand – and you should be able to eventually get there.
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  SPEAKER_00: You don't have to know the addresses off the top of your head.
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  SPEAKER_00: But you should be able to go back and say,
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  SPEAKER_00: hey,
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  SPEAKER_00: according to the Bible,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is – sin entered the world through man.
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  SPEAKER_00: God didn't – and you can have these actual discussions.
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  SPEAKER_00: And in my experience actually, it wasn't – memory verses help.
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  SPEAKER_00: They help and stuff like that for sure, keeping scripture in your heart.
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  And I still think of them,
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  even old songs I sang and things like that that were scripture-based.
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  SPEAKER_00: But really understanding the stories of what happened,
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  SPEAKER_00: how the Bible played out,
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: what God was doing in there,
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: and really his character in all of it.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because really what the Bible is doing is revealing the character of God.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: So when somebody says, your God is evil, I say, whoa, whoa.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_00: You don't really know about him because you don't see.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's a lot of evil in the Old Testament.
• 13:24
  You're going to tell me about all these crazy things,
• 13:26
  but you don't understand.
• 13:27
  You're skipping all of the mercy,
• 13:30
  the grace,
• 13:31
  the love,
• 13:31
  everything the Lord has for you.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: And really what the Bible is, obviously it's revealing Christ.
• 13:36
  But on top of that,
• 13:37
  it's revealing God and who he really is and his persona.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like somebody trying to say something about you like,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_00: why would Pastor Brad do this?
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I say, hey, you don't even know him.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: He would never do anything.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's out of his character.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the fact that you're accusing him, it's so out of character.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we use that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like in humans, we say somebody wouldn't do that.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's out of their character.
• 13:55
  But when we get to God,
• 13:56
  we allow people to label him in all sorts of ways.
• 13:59
  And it's things that we get mad about people like you don't
• 14:01
  even know them.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: How can you say that about my friend?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: You've never even met them.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: You never talked or had a conversation with them.
• 14:07
  It's like that's the same thing maybe at the extreme with God
• 14:10
  because so many
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: people haven't read the Bible,
• 14:12
  and they're criticizing and making all kinds of judgment
• 14:14
  statements when God
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: clearly put it all in his word.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it's confusing, and there's some things in there that –
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Still, our minds, because we're human, can't wrap around.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: But God,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: for the most part,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: has clearly laid out his character,
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: his love for us,
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: his hatred of sin,
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: but his way to make a way for us.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he's not a malevolent God.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: He's a benevolent God.
• 14:35
  And you can be lied about by your friends that he's a different
• 14:39
  God in the Old
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Testament than the New Testament,
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: but it's an absolute lie.
• 14:42
  Because all you have to do is sit there and even read Genesis,
• 14:44
  you'll get there.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: But every book,
• 14:45
  you're going to see the gospel and love and mercy when people
• 14:48
  should have been
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: struck dead.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: You'll see a lot of that,
• 14:51
  but that is often skipped over because people aren't reading it
• 14:54
  and they're
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: mischaracterizing the Lord.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's a really great point.
• 14:57
  And this comes back to not just the point we're trying to
• 15:01
  stress about systematic theology,
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: but what undergirds,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: or we should say what is the foundation of systematic theology,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: is a healthy biblical theology.
• 15:13
  we could say,
• 15:14
  informed perspective on what the Bible actually is meant to do.
• 15:19
  And we've talked about this before,
• 15:20
  too,
• 15:21
  that the Bible is not a book of ethics.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a book of morals.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a book even of science or even a book of history.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a book of poetry.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: All of those things are in there.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's more precisely a book of revelation.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: And as you, I think, really accurately said, it's a book that reveals
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: The character of God,
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: the nature of God,
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: we could even say more pointedly,
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: it reveals the person of God,
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: in the person of Jesus.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And all of this is where all of theological thought comes from.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: It comes from the word,
• 15:53
  which is just to say that the Bible comes first and then we
• 15:57
  systematize the Bible,
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: which is essentially what we're talking about,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 16:01
  and that's a really great point that you just made right there
• 16:03
  to end it is like
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: how do you utilize the Bible?
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Does the Bible come first or does your opinions come first?
• 16:09
  And I mean this is where – I mean it gets messy in all facets
• 16:13
  of the church when
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: politics gets involved is because –
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of times,
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_00: and politics I understand is necessary to an extent,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: but inside the church it can get so convoluted because of these things.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Systematic theology by people who are usually hyperpolitical,
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: they usually have some kind of agenda either on the right or the left.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't matter.
• 16:29
  Both sides who claim themselves to be Christians,
• 16:31
  whether you're on one side.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And what often happens is when you get to these theological discussions,
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: if you have no background or very little care for systematic theology,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: you're first going to take your political party's agenda.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Then you're going to look at it.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're going to project it into the Bible,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_00: and you're going to do exactly what we just talked about.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to go pull this chapter and this verse,
• 16:49
  even though it was talking about Assyria coming to conquer
• 16:52
  Israel or something.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going to use it to your benefit and stretch things.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is what are you putting first?
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are you trying to – and it doesn't have to be politics.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's just an easy one to beat up on.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: It could be people justifying their sins.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: or justifying the way they're treating somebody.
• 17:07
  Well,
• 17:07
  technically the Lord says this and technically,
• 17:09
  and it's stretching these things.
• 17:10
  And it's like,
• 17:11
  how about you start with the Bible and then let it tell you how
• 17:14
  to do it.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in line or not, don't take your feelings and justify them.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Use the Bible to show how much of a sinner you are.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you should change your heart or the approach, even if you're right.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes even the approach is the problem.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that's where you get into proof texting,
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: cherry picking,
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: and all of those things might seem like a pragmatic issue.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: But no,
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: actually,
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: they're a theological issue because you are now using,
• 17:37
  and I would even say you're weaponizing the Bible to make a
• 17:41
  certain point or to
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: back a certain view that you have.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: And like you said, you're kind of bringing your own
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: biases or suppositions.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then now you're saying,
• 17:51
  how can I make the scriptures teach this instead of what does
• 17:56
  the Bible actually say?
• 17:57
  And then that's where we get into just the necessity again of
• 18:03
  not only biblical theology,
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: but systematic theology,
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: because the one drives the other.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: You can't have one without the other.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so a healthy view of
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: A healthy biblical theology will naturally,
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: it should naturally,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: it will naturally end up bringing the reader,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: the student of it,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: into systematic theology,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: understanding what the Bible says.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: how we sort of broke it down in terms of our class,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: in terms of our,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: our discipleship class was dividing it into roughly 10.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: Let's see, how many is it?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 10 different series of sessions.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we have Bibliology,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Doctrine of the Bible,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: Theology Proper,
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Christology,
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: Doctrine of Christ,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: Pneumatology,
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: Doctrine of the Holy Spirit,
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Angelology,
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: which we also included in there,
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Demonology.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: anthropology,
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine of man,
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_01: homardiology,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine of sin,
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: soteriology,
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine of salvation,
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: ecclesiology,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine of the church,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: and eschatology,
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: doctrine of last things.
• 19:12
  Each one,
• 19:12
  of course,
• 19:13
  you can kind of understand as like little blocks building a pyramid.
• 19:18
  And if you shift one,
• 19:20
  you know,
• 19:20
  you're going to end up in a really weird place.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: And if you take one out altogether, then the whole thing might crumble.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_01: Was just to say, it's not to...
• 19:30
  Yes,
• 19:30
  there's probably greater emphasis within Scripture on certain
• 19:35
  of these doctrines.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: But each one is necessary.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Each one is essential.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, absolutely.
• 19:42
  And I even love the setup here even of systematic theology,
• 19:47
  how it starts.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_00: We just talk about bibliology.
• 19:48
  It talks about the inerrancy of the Word of God because if you
• 19:52
  start systematic
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: theology not understanding that the Bible is the full truth,
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: the only truth you need –
• 19:57
  You're already like off kilter and could fall over at any point
• 20:01
  in your study,
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: and you're going to be off.
• 20:02
  So you have to first start out,
• 20:03
  and I love the series even started out like that.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's like here's the thing you got to understand.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Here's the Bible.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Here's how you study.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_00: Here is the inerrant word of God.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing wrong if – I love the – I forget who said it,
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: but it was basically if I look at the Bible and I disagree,
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: I have to be the one that's wrong.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: I have to.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: By definition, I have to be wrong and I have to shift my understanding.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so important to have that in order.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 20:26
  I like what you said even there too is like if you even just
• 20:28
  pull one of these blocks,
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: they all build up together.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: One doesn't stand alone like you said.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_00: And some would say, hey, this is really important and not so much this.
• 20:36
  But they all have their own importance and they can all throw
• 20:39
  off your biblical worldview.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_00: The one example I have is I taught what some would consider –
• 20:44
  Maybe one of the least important of all of them is angelology,
• 20:47
  which is really interesting.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_00: Some people would say,
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: angels,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: that's cool and all like that,
• 20:50
  but it's really not important to my everyday life and all this
• 20:52
  kind of stuff.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm so much more worried about this, this and this.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: But I actually had somebody come up to me after the series and say,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: that was really that was really impactful.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 21:02
  I kind of thought the spirit war was kind of I know we pray and
• 21:04
  stuff like that,
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: but I thought it was just Satan and God.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know angels are still involved.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know demons are still involved.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, wow.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: to go your whole life thinking this and believing the word,
• 21:13
  but saying the spirit world is no longer active and the angels
• 21:16
  and demons are gone.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's just biblically inaccurate.
• 21:19
  And that's just one silly – it sounds silly because you have
• 21:22
  everything else right,
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: but that will actually affect your prayer life,
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: how you view people.
• 21:26
  Now people are your enemies because you don't think there's
• 21:28
  spirits behind them working.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it really affects your biblical worldview because the Bible,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: if you put angelology in perspective –
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: You say, hey, there's a lot of dark forces around.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Ephesians teaches us this.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: I use Ephesians 6 a lot.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: Humans aren't our enemies,
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: so if they seem as appear to be our enemy,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: they're lost or they're being driven by satanic evil forces,
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: and they can be at work and all these things,
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_00: and we should really be able to get the people on the Lord's side.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: Humans aren't the enemies.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's these spirits.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if you don't believe in these spirits anymore,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: you only see human enemies around,
• 21:57
  and you see things in a really off-putting view of what the
• 22:01
  Bible actually says.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: So even things like that –
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: if you don't ever study angelology,
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to – you can still be a really great Christian.
• 22:08
  But you're going to probably lose the importance of that
• 22:11
  spiritual aspect.
• 22:12
  You're not going to take putting on the armor of God as
• 22:13
  seriously because you don't
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_00: think there's spirits out there warring against you.
• 22:16
  And if you do,
• 22:17
  you think it's Satan and he's busy with somebody else and maybe
• 22:19
  not you.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really fascinating.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_00: I like how you said how they all go together.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if you want to have a strong,
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_00: pure biblical view,
• 22:26
  you need to approach each one of these from what all 66 Books
• 22:30
  United say about it.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: Because looking at Scripture,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: you can make the point that there's a far greater emphasis on soteriology
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: throughout Bible,
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_01: yes.
• 22:42
  And there's a lesser,
• 22:43
  like you said,
• 22:43
  there's a lesser degree of emphasis on angels.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: However, that doesn't mean that they're not present.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not still relevant, too.
• 22:52
  And I think another point just to make before we keep diving in
• 22:54
  deeper is just this,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: is that I think—
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: But some people have—I don't want to use the straw man,
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: but I think perhaps some could make the argument that,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe I'm rehashing.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're going back again to the necessity of theology.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: But some could make the argument, maybe—
• 23:15
  That,
• 23:16
  well,
• 23:16
  the thief on the cross,
• 23:17
  you know,
• 23:17
  he didn't need any of this.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't get catechized.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: He didn't go through any sort of discipleship class.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: He just had faith.
• 23:26
  So isn't he the prime example of,
• 23:29
  I don't need theology,
• 23:31
  I just need Jesus?
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing people always approach.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my things when people talk about the Thief of the Cross,
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: because it is helpful in a way to show,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: it helps counter the opposite of,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: they didn't get baptized.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if they're in heaven.
• 23:46
  It's like,
• 23:46
  well,
• 23:46
  do they believe in the Lord because of the Thief of the Cross?
• 23:48
  So that's an instance for certain situations because I also
• 23:51
  tell the people that go
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: the opposite and say,
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know what?
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I even need to be baptized.
• 23:55
  I don't need to go to church because the Thief of the Cross
• 23:56
  never went to church.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_00: My answer to them is,
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: had he had the time to get off that cross,
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_00: I think he would have been baptized in the Jordan River.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think he would have been preaching in a local church.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: I think he would have never shut up about it,
• 24:07
  and his life would have been changed because the Bible says
• 24:10
  that's what happens
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: when Christ changes your life.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 24:15
  What the thief on the cross shows is that what's necessary for
• 24:19
  salvation is faith.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: But what the thief on the cross missed out on was the,
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: we could say,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: the blessed after effects of the gospel.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: Which is just to say he never got to commune with the church or,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what his familiarity was with synagogue.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't want to sort of, you know, inquire on that.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: But he missed out on all of the other benefits that we are able to enjoy,
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: which is just to say diving into theology.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_01: is a rich piece of delight, or it ought to be.
• 24:53
  It ought to be a rich sort of avenue of enjoyment and delight
• 24:57
  for the people of God
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_01: within the church.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's something that should enrapture us all, captivate our attention.
• 25:03
  And this is part of what it means to be a disciple,
• 25:06
  part of what it means to be a community.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're being discipled together.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, from one aspect, the thief on the cross didn't
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: need to per se,
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: but he also didn't get the opportunity to,
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_01: which I think is a different way to look at that moment.
• 25:24
  Because now what we're learning and seeing is that his view was
• 25:28
  sufficient of who
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: Christ was,
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: but it wasn't as full as perhaps,
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: someone else within the church.
• 25:35
  If they really study Christology,
• 25:37
  they may have a fuller view of who Christ is,
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: But his view was sufficient in order for everlasting life, so to speak.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I love that's the great thing about the Bible.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_00: And as I got older, I learned it as a kid.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: You start out thinking there's one meaning and this is what it is.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: And like,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: for example,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thieving the Cross,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: that means that you don't have to do all this stuff and you get saved.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, all right, moving on.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you can camp out here.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: And you could camp out for probably a year and dissect this thing.
• 26:02
  This is – I mean it's sort of related but unrelated to
• 26:04
  systematic theology,
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: but one of the best examples of this,
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: and that's why I like you took the approach of the thief on the cross.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like we could do a whole sermon on what he missed out on.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe –
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Skip the – salvation is great.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: We can mention that,
• 26:14
  but we could just do a whole sermon on the life he missed out
• 26:17
  on of what a
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: Christian life could be like.
• 26:19
  But another example – and that's why I love – that's why it's
• 26:21
  so hard to have
• 26:22
  superficial conversations about the Bible when they want to
• 26:24
  make these claims,
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_00: usually these hard claims,
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: hard truth claims that aren't biblically accurate,
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: and they only want to stay at the surface.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to analyze it.
• 26:32
  The biggest one for me is that I've seen that way and that
• 26:35
  really opened my eyes.
• 26:36
  I think that was the first story that really opened my eyes
• 26:38
  that said,
• 26:39
  wait,
• 26:39
  there's like –
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: More than one side of the story here was the prodigal son.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_00: And everybody's like, oh, that's so awesome.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can't ever get too far from the father's love.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can always return.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's never too late, no matter what you did.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that is true.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really big portion.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: But it's also about the ungrateful brother.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: who wasn't happy and was saying, I followed the rules.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: I did that.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: How dare you?
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't understand.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: It was how we,
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: it's a story for us,
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_00: how we can be the ungrateful brother and say,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: we did this,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Lord,
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: and we did this.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: How come you're blessing them and not blessing me?
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: You never blessed me like this.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so fast.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: And there's probably a million other.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: Those are just the two right off the top.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: You could dissect that thing forever and ever and ever.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why it's so important.
• 27:20
  And a deeper version of it's a systematic theology where you're
• 27:22
  going down like I
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: know the thief in the cross said this,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: but what else does it say?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And you're encompassing everything.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: It does such a good job and it prevents.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: You from like the proof texting,
• 27:32
  making this crazy wild claim and saying this is what it's about
• 27:35
  because you can –
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: and when you start to understand the Bible like this,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: you actually – it's one of those things like the more you know,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: the less you know is kind of what it starts to feel like.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I knew all the answers,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: and now I see there's a lot of openings here,
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: and there's a lot of other ways you can look at it.
• 27:48
  So you become less firm in like this is definitely the way it
• 27:52
  is and this is
• 27:52
  definitely how hell looks and this is definitely how this
• 27:55
  experience is going to be.
• 27:56
  You start to say this is what it looks like here and there's
• 27:59
  all these things and
• 28:00
  there's things that are unclear to us and God's word is so
• 28:03
  profound that I'm never
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: going to reach the depth.
• 28:05
  So if I ever tell you that I've achieved it all and that I read
• 28:08
  Revelation front
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: and back and I know everything it says,
• 28:10
  I've lost it probably and I've somehow lost touch with reality
• 28:14
  because there's so
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: much depth and even if I think I can understand that book from –
• 28:17
  front to back,
• 28:18
  there are things I'm definitely missing because it's too rich
• 28:20
  for me to handle.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: even to your point,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: the prodigal son story in Luke 15,
• 28:25
  you could even take like a third angle and just look at the
• 28:29
  character of the father.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: The love of the father!
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because even...
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: He treats both of his sons with this boundless grace and generosity,
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: even the one who wastes it and the one who thinks he deserves it.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: The same generous father is still there,
• 28:44
  which is just to say it's kind of what we've talked about
• 28:47
  before off the record.
• 28:49
  But just the fact that just because one thing is true doesn't
• 28:53
  mean another thing
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_01: isn't also true at the same time.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's the hardest thing, I think, for our human minds to understand.
• 28:59
  And that was one of the biggest hurdles that God got me over
• 29:02
  because you can be right.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: You can have an argument and say,
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 29:06
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 29:06
  the whole prodigal son is about how thankful we should be and
• 29:09
  how you can ever be
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: so far.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no, it's not.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's about the love of the Father.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how ungrateful we can get.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, who's right?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: All of them.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: All of them.
• 29:17
  And that's a big problem in the world in general is that we
• 29:20
  have this dichotomy in our minds.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the Bible,
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: if you want to take a dichotomy mindset into the Bible,
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to get repped.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to fall into a lot of traps.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: I was going to save this for later, but we'll just talk about it now.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's so timely.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So a couple weeks ago, there was that tweet that got sent out, right?
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: I think it sent you that story where Megan Basham,
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: she's this author of this book,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: Shepherds for Sale,
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: just providing backstory,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: she wrote this book,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: and it was supposed to be a book that was trying to...
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_01: expose,
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: for lack of a better word,
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_01: some evangelical thought leaders,
• 29:58
  really prominent ones for ways in which they might have
• 30:00
  compromised either during
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: movements like BLM or the COVID era policies and stuff like that.
• 30:06
  So she's trying to sort of expose how many of the evangelical
• 30:10
  leaders have made a
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: little bit of compromise here and there.
• 30:15
  And so that's kind of the way I've gotten to know her because
• 30:18
  then her book came out.
• 30:19
  And lo and behold,
• 30:20
  there's a lot of factual issues with some of the things that
• 30:23
  she asserts.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: So anyways, that's kind of how her name has gotten out there.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And recently she put this tweet out there about how,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke chapter 10.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_01: isn't about how well you and I, human beings, should love our neighbor.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
• 30:42
  it's supposed to show us how we as human beings can't love our
• 30:46
  neighbor perfectly,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: which again,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: I'd have to find the exact quote,
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: but I'll find it and put it in the notes.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:53
  But I think it's so fascinating because she got torn to shreds
• 30:56
  for that point that
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: she's making.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: Like people in her Twitter comments or X, I don't know.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whoever it's at.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: We're just ripping her apart for how apparently,
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: according to them,
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: what she's saying is,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: we don't need to love our neighbor anymore.
• 31:11
  You know,
• 31:12
  morals and ethics towards those who are outcasts,
• 31:15
  those who are destitute.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't matter anymore.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: No, you can.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: It means both.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're equally true.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: The Good Samaritan story is about both things at the same time.
• 31:27
  And Jesus is invective by his directive by telling that story
• 31:34
  within context.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_01: Again, this is where biblical theology comes into play.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: is about both things.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: Number one,
• 31:41
  showing everyone within earshot some of the racial biases that
• 31:48
  may have influenced
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: either their generosity or their lack thereof,
• 31:52
  but then also showing just how far removed they are from
• 31:57
  actually fulfilling the law,
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: which is what he came to do.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what Megan was saying was,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: was a very Christological point,
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: was a very,
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: we could say,
• 32:07
  very gospel point that Jesus comes to be the good Samaritan for
• 32:12
  we who cannot be,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: for we who cannot live up to the righteousness of the law,
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: which is kind of the point.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's wild.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the thing that's so dangerous and it's helpful to get past is
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: That this is like, what is the true meaning of this scripture?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is there a true meaning singular?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because I do think it's one of those things.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think almost everybody is going to start out with the,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:35
  the good Samaritan with the way that the people that are
• 32:37
  ridiculing her are coming
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: from because they all heard it this way.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this is the way it is.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: And how dare you tell us this isn't about.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not that she's saying it's not about that,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: but there's just another angle to take,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: or the prodigal son.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think we all,
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: when we first read that,
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: are going to get the first initial takeaway that,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: it doesn't matter what you've done,
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: the Lord will receive,
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: the Father will receive you back.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I do believe as you go along,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: like maybe that's the first thing you see,
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: the Lord,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: as you mature and you are open to his truth,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: and there's things that you need to see in your life,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: the Lord is going to reveal other layers of it.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem in Megan's situation, I think, is actually –
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: That as crazy as some people might think I sound,
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: these theologians,
• 33:15
  these people that are jumping down our throat that might have
• 33:16
  been doing this 30,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: 40,
• 33:19
  50 years are not ready yet.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And they are not capable yet of seeing this other layer.
• 33:23
  And not that they're not even capable because the Lord can
• 33:26
  reveal anything,
• 33:26
  but that they don't want to open this thing because they want
• 33:29
  it to only have one answer.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think the only time...
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: In the Bible, you can say what's the one true answer.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's that we need a Savior, and it's the Lord Jesus.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to say what's the one true answer, that's the true answer.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: But the Bible has so many more things in there,
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: and when you start taking stories out,
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: like I'm doing Abraham and Isaac,
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Genesis 22,
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_00: the binding of Isaac.
• 33:49
  That thing is just so rich,
• 33:50
  and I'm still even now reaching depths I never reached before.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I had already – I knew I never got to the bottom of anything.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_00: But I had already realized, man, this is way crazier, deeper.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: And then,
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 34:00
  how you know how this is when you meditate on things and you
• 34:02
  think about it more.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then these things start popping up.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, oh, man, the thicket and the thorns.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: The thorns are on the ram's head.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_00: The thorns are on Jesus's head.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my goodness.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Two guys.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: Two guys on the cross.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you start to see these other things.
• 34:14
  So was there a story – like it's interesting for the Abraham
• 34:17
  one because –
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Only only Christians are going to take the approach of the Lord.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Jesus is what I'm going to portray on Sunday here.
• 34:24
  But yet they all believe and they all think there's something
• 34:26
  to take away from the
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: story of Abraham about how you must sacrifice everything,
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: be open to sacrifice to the Lord.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_00: That is definitely a true thing.
• 34:32
  There are a lot of true moral values and things on how you
• 34:35
  should treat God based
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_00: on Abraham's faith and how when and the works came after his faith.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: There's all those lessons in there.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: That it wasn't a combination.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: It was just that it came from it.
• 34:44
  But if you want to keep going deeper and you want to allow the
• 34:47
  Lord to open your eyes,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: just study these things from a Christological point of view.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: Look at the Old Testament from a Christ view,
• 34:53
  and you are going to see it's impossible to miss anymore that
• 34:56
  there's just so much.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And like I said,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: I already knew that Isaac carried the wood up the whole thing,
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: and I knew all these things.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: But then you just keep going, and it's layer after layer after layer.
• 35:04
  And it's and it's and it shows me now more than ever to never
• 35:07
  stop somebody and say
• 35:08
  it doesn't mean that the only way I'm going to tell somebody it
• 35:11
  doesn't mean that
• 35:11
  is if they're proof texting something that goes against
• 35:14
  systematic theology.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they take that, then I'm going to tell somebody it doesn't mean that.
• 35:18
  But I'm not going to say something that is valid that Megan
• 35:20
  says seems pretty.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: It seems to operate under systematic theology pretty well,
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_00: because that's a true statement,
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: what she's saying of,
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 35:27
  I think she would be right and I would never want to go and say
• 35:29
  this is your
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: wrong.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm right.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: And this is how you interpret it.
• 35:31
  You just kind of make yourself seem foolish and less
• 35:34
  understanding of what God's
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_00: really getting at.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_01: And using that example with Megan Basham is just to,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a really good lens for showing,
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: or maybe we could say revealing the,
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 35:48
  the lack of biblical literacy in order to say these two things
• 35:52
  are true at the same time.
• 35:54
  So I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago for my blog,
• 35:58
  and I'll link to it.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: But the example I used – and again, maybe you'll disagree with me.
• 36:03
  The example I used was – it's ludicrous to me that we're still
• 36:08
  debating who's better,
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: Michael Jordan or LeBron James.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: When we can say that both are the greatest in their respective areas,
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: because the thing that I would argue not to derail this into basketball,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_01: you can't really compare the NBA from the 90s to the NBA of the 2010s.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's almost a completely different game.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: With the rule changes and the three-point shot and how that has really
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: revolutionized everything,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: which is just to say these people that,
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: like ESPN First Take,
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: they have those guys.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: They're just screaming at each other, trying to argue their side.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of like you're both right.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that same thing, though, happens.
• 36:54
  That silly debate thing that happens on ESPN First Take,
• 36:58
  it happens in the church all the time.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: Constantly.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: This Megan Basham thing is a perfect example.
• 37:03
  And I just want to be able to insert myself into the middle and
• 37:07
  just be like,
• 37:07
  you're both right.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're both right.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: And to bring it full circle, this is a systematic theology issue.
• 37:16
  Once you try to say that this thing is wrong and this thing is
• 37:20
  right or vice versa—
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: Especially concerning that particular passage,
• 37:26
  you're making a systematic theological error because you should
• 37:32
  be able to say that
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: both are right at the same time.
• 37:36
  And systematic theology helps you get there because it allows
• 37:38
  you to understand...
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: both what the Bible is saying,
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_01: like you're saying,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: in a very pragmatic level,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: but then,
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: what's the deeper revolutionary,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: revelatory level,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak?
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: What's that level saying?
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: What's that telling us?
• 37:54
  And that's where we can arrive at that really important point
• 37:58
  that both are true.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Both reveal, yes...
• 38:01
  So our actions,
• 38:02
  but more to the point,
• 38:05
  more deeply,
• 38:06
  more truly,
• 38:07
  they reveal who God is.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: They reveal his character.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: They reveal what he came to do.
• 38:10
  They reveal Christ's mission and so on and so forth,
• 38:13
  which,
• 38:14
  again,
• 38:14
  just brings us back.
• 38:16
  It's a really long and winding way to say systematic theology
• 38:19
  is absolutely necessary.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: 100%.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you didn't get anything from this,
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: this is – get into systematic theology is what we're saying.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: But it's so true,
• 38:26
  and I actually – like your example to me like immediately
• 38:29
  worked really well with
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: like who's better,
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: Michael Jordan and LeBron.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I'll always say Michael Jordan,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: but I grew up in the 90s also,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: which also affects my understanding,
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: My very first memory of basketball is Jordan in the 1998 finals.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's against Utah Jazz.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Utah Jazz.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: Carmelo and Ruben.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: like, prescient for me.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's really, like, a really precious memory.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I still, like, we can still say both are the same.
• 38:51
  We can revere and honor both,
• 38:53
  and that's kind of the same thing we're saying.
• 38:54
  Yeah,
• 38:55
  and exactly,
• 38:56
  and you can't negate the other,
• 38:57
  I think,
• 38:57
  is what it's saying,
• 38:58
  too.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can't,
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_00: because Michael Jordan is the best 90s,
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: you can't negate that this,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: he's not the best,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: and vice versa.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same way, and I think
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Even going again,
• 39:07
  it works with the Megan Basham thing is that that's her
• 39:11
  approach to this is so timely.
• 39:13
  And it's she's using this point for a reason of maybe where
• 39:16
  we're at in society today,
• 39:17
  SPEAKER_00: where we're at in the world and what message we need to hear today.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_00: And there's messages like we said, we can dive in there.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_00: There's messages throughout.
• 39:23
  But sometimes it's going to be right for the certain timing
• 39:26
  that some of these –
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_00: this might not be the best example,
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: but back if you were a pastor in the 70s or 80s,
• 39:31
  some of these things you don't even want to get into because
• 39:33
  you took it – again,
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: this story always meant this one thing.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: God forbid society has changed,
• 39:38
  and there are some things happening now that this story and the
• 39:41
  other meanings that
• 39:42
  the Lord put in it are time to be revealed to other people that
• 39:45
  have never had this
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: revealed to them,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_00: and they can practically –
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: use this in their mind to make sense of the world around them.
• 39:51
  Like you said,
• 39:51
  what's going on even when she went under the COVID stuff and
• 39:54
  all that stuff.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_00: It was very practical.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_00: She couldn't have made those points 10 years ago.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: They wouldn't have had as much of an effect,
• 39:59
  but the timing was right to bring these kind of things up and
• 40:02
  to start those conversations.
• 40:04
  So it's really interesting how even the Michael Jordan-LeBron
• 40:06
  debate is like,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: that story,
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: even in your life,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_00: like
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hey,
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_00: the prodigal son,
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_00: when you were a non-believer,
• 40:12
  that prodigal son story was actually designed for you at that
• 40:15
  moment to teach you
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: that you couldn't be so far.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_00: Now that you're a believer for five, ten years, that can still be true.
• 40:21
  But now it should be about how are you looking at other people
• 40:24
  who are being saved
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: and are you starting to judge?
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because now you're in a different phase of life.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're in a different era.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And now the story has a different meaning.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_00: Not a different meaning because they all still apply,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_00: but it's a new lens for you to look through that you didn't know existed.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's such a great point.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: The other example that comes to my mind is just like the story of Jacob.
• 40:42
  We've talked about him before on a previous episode,
• 40:44
  so I won't rehash it all.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I just remember like growing up having one perspective of Jacob.
• 40:50
  SPEAKER_01: And now that I'm older, it's like, man, he was kind of a jerk.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, right.
• 40:54
  Right.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's just to say that both are true at the same time.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Again,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: Jacob is probably the perfect example of that Lutheran tenet that he was
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: simultaneously just in the saint.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's Jacob to a T. He was simultaneously both at the same time.
• 41:15
  SPEAKER_01: That simultaneous nature.
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: of who Jacob is,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: is you can kind of zoom out a little bit,
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: and that's where you get to certain aspects of the Bible,
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_01: where they're both true at the same time.
• 41:25
  And the lens for discerning,
• 41:29
  like,
• 41:30
  where something is off is systematic theology.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Then you can say, is this true about God here?
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so on and so forth.
• 41:37
  And that's where we can get into somewhat,
• 41:41
  we can say,
• 41:41
  the nitty-gritty of it all is putting...
• 41:45
  Using the Bible as our guide and then being able to discern
• 41:50
  what the theological
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_01: truths of a particular,
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: take any lecture,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: take any sermon,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: you're hopefully,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: Lord willing,
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: you're able to…
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: discern in real time,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 42:01
  this is true because this falls in line with what I know about
• 42:04
  who God is and so on
• 42:05
  SPEAKER_01: and so forth.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_01: You can kind of put it in these lenses, in these grids.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it's so helpful to have this,
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: someone in your back pocket,
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_01: have these things able to,
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: not to beat a dead horse,
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: but the Megan Basham thing is,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_01: important too.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like you said, it is timely.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: If you take her critics sort of angle of that story,
• 42:30
  then you almost have this notion that the kingdom of God is all
• 42:36
  about ethics.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about the ethical and moral treatment of others.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, what is the primary saving factor of the world?
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is the church's ethics, which is not untrue per se.
• 42:53
  But it's not ultimately true because the kingdom of God is not
• 42:56
  ultimately about our ethics.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's about faith.
• 43:01
  It's about faith in the one who brings the kingdom of God to us,
• 43:04
  namely Christ.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: And that's kind of the point that if you take that to the nth degree,
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to make a soteriological error,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: again,
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: bringing us back to the need for systematics.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: and I think Jacob's a really almost perfect example of this because,
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: you can take these different – you can read,
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: and there's so many – like Jacob,
• 43:25
  you can do a whole movie about or a whole book about in itself
• 43:27
  just to analyze his
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: character and who he is because he has so many stories.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like when you talk about Jacob, are you talking about him wrestling God?
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_00: Are you talking about him ripping off his brother?
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: Are you talking about Laban ripping him off?
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking – because it's a crazy thing, and again –
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: But systematic theology,
• 43:42
  it's a really great blend because it's like the people who
• 43:45
  refuse systematic
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_00: theology are the ones who refuse to read Jacob's life as a whole and say,
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_00: he was really good.
• 43:51
  He's the one that saw the angels come up and down the ladder
• 43:53
  and like that was the
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: holy – he's a holy man and all this stuff.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then the other person is like,
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: did you see what he did to his brother Esau or poor Jacob?
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: He's like what a victim.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: I can't believe Laban ripped him off after all those years.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: What a poor victim.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what it comes out to be is all are true.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's a story of us in a way too, of we are that person.
• 44:11
  And it's funny because you can go ask your friends,
• 44:14
  hey,
• 44:14
  am I a good person?
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, you're great.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Go ask the people that hate you.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, are you – oh, no, you're the worst person I ever heard of.
• 44:18
  So again,
• 44:19
  I'm sure there's good and bad about us all because the Bible
• 44:21
  says that or whatever.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I love how the Bible approaches Jacob especially because –
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: this is really profound to me as I got older,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: is after the wrestling match,
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: his name's changed to Israel,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: which is to struggle with God in itself,
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_00: which is interesting.
• 44:32
  But Israel is the more godly name for him,
• 44:34
  whereas Jacob is the scoundrel,
• 44:36
  this rascal.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a derogatory name in a way.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: But it's interesting from that point on,
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_00: the Bible sometimes calls him Jacob and sometimes calls him Israel.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And at first you might say, well,
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: Why?
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_00: This is so confusing.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: He has two names.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just give me one name.
• 44:49
  But what it's telling you again is something so much deeper is
• 44:52
  that when he was
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: called Jacob,
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: it was probably some scoundrel thing he was doing.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_00: When he was called Israel, it was something really godly he was doing.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what does that say?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, who is he?
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is he a scoundrel or is he struggling with God because he worshiped God?
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: He is both because we are both.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it's these deeper things.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I understand, you know,
• 45:09
  These stories had all these other meanings to you when you
• 45:11
  first started learning,
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: but go deeper,
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: and you're going to realize,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: you need all those stories in context to realize the full truth,
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: just like going back to the Bible.
• 45:20
  You're going to need – you can't just take the common thing
• 45:24
  that we hear a lot,
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_00: not everybody,
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: but you can't just take Matthew and Revelation and say,
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need the old stuff.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just glad Jesus is here.
• 45:31
  Because – and you can – I'm sure you're going to get a lot of
• 45:34
  good knowledge out of
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: Matthew to Revelation,
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_00: but there's so much substance in the Old Testament.
• 45:38
  You're,
• 45:38
  again,
• 45:38
  not going to fully understand why Christ had to come,
• 45:41
  all these realities to it.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you're going to lose a lot of that theology there.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's so important to,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: to take all 66 books,
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: look at them together and say,
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_00: I know it says this here.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: But what else does it say about this topic in the Bible,
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_00: which is essentially what this is doing?
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_00: And knowing, again, that there are no contradictions in the Bible.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if it looks like a contradiction,
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_00: there's a deeper mystery here because they all tie in comprehensively.
• 46:04
  And when you study systematic theology,
• 46:06
  you should see the comprehensive –
• 46:08
  tie-ins between these stories and how it can be true that we
• 46:11
  should live this
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_00: Christian life,
• 46:12
  but how it can also be true the thief on the cross could get in
• 46:14
  without living that
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: Christian life and how they can equally be true at the same time and only
• 46:18
  understanding it by reading it all in full context and allowing
• 46:21
  it to all chime in,
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: all 66 books to chime in about what the truth is on this doctrinal topic.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: And another good example of like the naming thing is,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: of course,
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_01: Simon Peter,
• 46:33
  because Jesus calls him Simon sometimes and calls him Peter at
• 46:36
  other times.
• 46:37
  And it's the same sort of pattern or nomenclature where he's
• 46:42
  using that to sort of
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: get to the heart of the Peter that he's talking to,
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 46:50
  And kind of like how Israel is more of the quote unquote good
• 46:55
  versus the bad Jacob.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of the same thing.
• 46:57
  But I think all of this is helping us to understand not only in
• 47:02
  the necessity,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: but I would say,
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: at least for you and me,
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: like we are,
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: we're pastors,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: we are in the word.
• 47:09
  But also hopefully what people are gathering is the fact that
• 47:12
  like studying
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: theology is like kind of joyful and
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it should be.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not kind of, but it is.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not this drudgery thing.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I don't, maybe the church has done a bad job at that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's like,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 47:28
  the history teacher that's just like really dry and boring and
• 47:31
  history awful.
• 47:33
  But when really history should be so electric and alive,
• 47:37
  maybe that's kind of the point.
• 47:38
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe you've just had bad teachers.
• 47:39
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: That happened, and it's funny because this goes along with reading.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So many people that grew up said, I hate reading.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: Reading is stupid.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to read.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: And other kids are like, I just want to be in books all the time.
• 47:47
  They said a lot of times the people that grew up hating reading
• 47:50
  were forced to read
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: books they had no interest in,
• 47:52
  whereas if you started every child out with what are your
• 47:55
  topics you're interested in,
• 47:55
  let's read these books when you introduce them that way and
• 47:58
  allow them to show them
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: the fullness of it.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it might be the same in the church.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: Like perhaps it's gone on for so long, you know, not everywhere.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know not everywhere is the same.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not all believers are the same.
• 48:06
  But perhaps some of these doctrines have been taught or have
• 48:10
  gone so far one way or
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: they've been slammed in in a boring way by some person that was just,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: like you said,
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: very dry about it.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: And you said, why do I need to know this?
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: I got nothing out of this.
• 48:20
  I'm going to put this on the shelf forever because that was a
• 48:22
  bad experience.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: And that can happen to a lot of people.
• 48:24
  SPEAKER_00: It can happen to
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_00: You can have it in a restaurant.
• 48:26
  You can go to one of the greatest restaurants and everybody said,
• 48:28
  this is great.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you're like, no, the waiter didn't come out for this much time.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_00: The food was cold.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, that was literally the one mistake they made all night.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just kind of crazy to see how this all goes.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: But systematic theology, again, is just so important if you
• 48:42
  SPEAKER_00: It should – you should love to be closer to God.
• 48:44
  You should be loving on how it's opening up your eyes to the
• 48:46
  Lord and diving deeper into it.
• 48:48
  It's also helpful too to show that – I don't know who your
• 48:54
  pastor was in the past
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_00: or whatever,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_00: but you can't take their – all that word for it.
• 48:58
  Run it through the systematic theology because that's how you
• 49:00
  can get a lot of the
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: false preachers.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you run false preaching through here,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_00: wait a minute,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: systematic theology,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: all the books of the Bible don't seem to point to that.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't say anything about – it does say about tithing,
• 49:10
  but it didn't say anything about tithing a seed to sow a
• 49:13
  harvest and that $1,000
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_00: will bring me $100,000.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: This doesn't seem to actually make sense.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: It seems like this is inaccurate.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that will protect you if you understand it,
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: because otherwise you'll just say,
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: it does say tithing and it does say God wants to bless me.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_00: And Abraham was rich and Solomon was rich.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: I guess I should give this pastor all my money.
• 49:31
  And it's like,
• 49:32
  if that's why I need your money,
• 49:33
  then it's a whole other problem.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And the system, the theology is usually convoluted in those senses.
• 49:37
  SPEAKER_00: But it's really helpful,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_00: to get a biblical worldview,
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: but also to hedge against,
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: some real bad theology,
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: because a lot of people are like,
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: what church?
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're asking a lot of my friends from out of the area.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: They'll say, help me find a church.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_00: What's a good one to go with?
• 49:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I said, you just got to start.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_00: There's a little bit of process you can start,
• 49:52
  but you just got to really listen to them and then reevaluate
• 49:55
  it and make sure
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_00: you're in the word.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And don't take a pastor.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's the only thing you're going to get out of it.
• 50:01
  Pastors are really helpful at guiding you and shepherding you
• 50:03
  and how to approach things.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_00: But you should be growing on your own as well.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: And to protect yourself against false preachers,
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: if you're only letting the pastor feed into you,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: and that's false preacher because they're not all good,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: you are going to be really stunted in your growth.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you're not going to be aware,
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: and it's why a true believer,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: a really believer that has the Holy Spirit with them,
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_00: spirit-led,
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: and they know their Bible,
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: they can walk into a church,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: brand new,
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: test it out,
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: and almost immediately sometimes,
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: five,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: ten minutes,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: say,
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_00: this is not for me.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: This seems off.
• 50:31
  this does not seem theologically accurate i just heard a help
• 50:34
  session you know
• 50:35
  there was no jesus and that stuff was good and i think all that
• 50:38
  applied but i
• 50:39
  didn't hear you know anything about jesus you know you'll get
• 50:42
  these you'll get
• 50:42
  these things because of your study so i think it's good no
• 50:45
  matter if you're a
• 50:45
  pastor or not you should get joy out of learning more and it's
• 50:48
  unlike for me it
• 50:49
  just becomes addicting almost where i actually have to stop
• 50:51
  myself because i have
• 50:51
  other things to do and i can't just be doing this all the time
• 50:54
  and i still do stay
• 50:55
  up late at night and reading in my free time but it's just it
• 50:57
  should be a joy to
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_00: get to know the lord in this way i
• 51:00
  I think that discernment factor is such a good point because
• 51:04
  I've made that point
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_01: from the pulpit before,
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: and I've been very kind of vulnerable in that way.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hey, don't take what I'm saying here as verbatim.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is meant for—like,
• 51:15
  the reason why we encourage people to have their Bibles with
• 51:19
  them as they're
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: listening to a sermon is so that they can kind of check me,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: be a check on me and what I'm saying right in the moment.
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: But that same sort of discernment, like you said—
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_01: That's a systematic theological exercise.
• 51:33
  What you're doing is you're discerning what's being relayed
• 51:37
  through the lens of
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_01: what the Bible's actually saying.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_01: What does the Bible actually say?
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_01: Does that jive with the rest of what the Bible reveals about God,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: the church,
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_01: Christ,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: so on and so forth?
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I think what you said is actually,
• 51:49
  SPEAKER_01: like for me,
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't even really perhaps recognize it in the moment back then.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: But like so a long time ago when Natalie and I were living in Florida,
• 51:57
  we were going out of one church and we were looking for a
• 52:02
  church home to be a part of.
• 52:04
  And so that exact thing that you mentioned is what we
• 52:07
  experienced where we walked into one.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, within a couple of minutes, we were quite well aware.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 52:13
  the wrong place it didn't help i think you know you know what
• 52:16
  tipped us off what's
• 52:17
  that uh was the ribbon dancers coming on the stage during the
• 52:20
  worship time that
• 52:21
  wasn't in the bible the necessity i'm not saying you can do
• 52:25
  that if you want i'm
• 52:26
  not harping on there's differences right i just knew this is
• 52:30
  probably not probably
• 52:31
  not my place we went to the other the other church that we
• 52:35
  spent the majority of
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_01: our time in florida at um shout out beacon baptist church um
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was almost instant.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_01: I remember like we visited that church and Natalie and I,
• 52:46
  we listened to the sermon and like almost as soon as we got in
• 52:48
  the car afterwards
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_01: when we were leaving that church,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_01: it was like,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_00: yeah.
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's it.
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is where we're meant to be.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_01: Where has this church been our whole lives?
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that –
• 53:00
  I wouldn't have put it in the terms of like I was using
• 53:05
  systematic theology to
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_01: discern that,
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: but actually that's what was happening.
• 53:09
  That's exactly what was happening,
• 53:10
  which I think is what a fruitful moment for both of us.
• 53:14
  But I think also it burdens me now that this should be
• 53:20
  happening more often.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: That same level of discernment should be happening more often.
• 53:24
  Sure,
• 53:24
  and I think it's one of those things where people can get –
• 53:26
  it's a daunting task.
• 53:28
  SPEAKER_00: People will ask – and it's good to ask your other believer friends like,
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: I went to this church.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think of this?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: Can you check out the sermon?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: I've had people do that to me before, and that's good.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: That means they're trying to get help and they're getting counsel.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 53:38
  But I think some people think – and it's this logic of the
• 53:43
  common Christian these
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_00: days is like,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: the pastor is the one that can decipher this stuff.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's this weird Catholic mindset of like –
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_00: I can read this stuff and I could try systematic theology,
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: but I'm going to still have to ask the pastor,
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: this or that or like going to the church.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm going to go to this church, but I'm just an average Christian.
• 53:59
  I'm going to have to take what I saw here and I'm going to go
• 54:01
  take it to another
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: pastor that I really trust or another believer that I really trust.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_00: And what that's doing really is,
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 54:07
  if you have systematic theology and you're studying your Bible
• 54:09
  and you know your
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_00: Bible and you have the Holy Spirit who gives you the discernment,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_00: it's not always going to be easy and this way or that way,
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_00: simple answer.
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_00: But with prayer and discernment,
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: if you have the Holy Spirit and you read your Bible,
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_00: the Lord will lead you,
• 54:23
  and you'll definitely be able to notice when there's false
• 54:25
  things going on.
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_00: Things that are ungodly that are not biblical maybe, maybe out of whack.
• 54:31
  You're going to get that,
• 54:32
  and sometimes it's almost going to be like a feeling at first.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like it feels uneasy,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: and you don't know why,
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: and then you dig deeper,
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_00: that was the Holy Spirit saying,
• 54:39
  SPEAKER_00: get out of here.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really interesting, but I think a lot of times –
• 54:43
  It's like the Christian uses the pastor as a crutch in an
• 54:46
  unhealthy way because
• 54:48
  they want to hedge on being wrong or they can't be – Tell me
• 54:51
  what to think.
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me what to believe.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, tell me what to believe.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to critically think.
• 54:54
  I want you to feed me this so I can feed it to my friend here
• 54:56
  or whatever because I
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: don't know how to think on my own,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: and that's such an unhealthy thing because –
• 55:00
  These people that don't think on their own don't study
• 55:02
  systematic theology.
• 55:03
  They run out to an atheist who's read a couple – they didn't
• 55:05
  study the Bible,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: but they read it,
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: and they throw these verses out that we know they do,
• 55:08
  SPEAKER_00: and they get eaten up because they've never thought on their own.
• 55:11
  And the only way they're going to get out of this is they call
• 55:12
  their pastor,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_00: which the atheist is going to make fun of you and say,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: you have to ask – you're under your pastor to find out if God's real.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like it is a really big interesting thing,
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: though,
• 55:21
  that it's so important for the common Christian to dive deeper
• 55:24
  in your word.
• 55:26
  And I definitely invite you to study systematic theology
• 55:29
  through and through on
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: your own pace,
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_00: your own time,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_00: and ask the Lord to open your eyes,
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_00: and he'll definitely do it.
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: And if you get to parts where you don't understand,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's totally fine to ask a pastor their insight on that,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_00: but I think it's really healthy to do it yourself first.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like when I'm helping my son Roscoe with his homework.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to do it for him first.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to have him give it a try.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_00: Then if he screws up, then I'm going to kind of help.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, that was a little wrong here.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's even the approach some Christians should take.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_00: If you're afraid and you still don't think you know the best,
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_00: give it your shot and then say,
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_00: take it to your pastor and say,
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_00: this is what I think.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: Am I right or am I wrong?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Am I in the right direction or not?
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_00: Don't say, what should I think?
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_00: What should I do about this?
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 56:03
  SPEAKER_01: I know we're almost running out of time,
• 56:04
  but I wanted to ask you before we close out here because we
• 56:08
  didn't dive into as
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_01: many of these as I wanted,
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: but that's fine.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what I do think would be helpful is like if you were to,
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 56:17
  just kind of take us a generalized view of we could say like
• 56:21
  the state of the
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: American church,
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: let's say,
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: because we're in America.
• 56:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, yes.
• 56:27
  What would you say out of these 10 is maybe the one that's most
• 56:32
  important to reemphasize again?
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_01: Like out of these different categories of systematic theology,
• 56:39
  which is the one where you either see the church lacking in or
• 56:43
  the church needing
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: to kind of like rediscover the necessity of again?
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really great point.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_00: I know soteriology is a big one.
• 56:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's been a chronic one for a long time.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: Again, the justification whole process, that one's a big one.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's always been there and it might always be there.
• 57:01
  But I might go back and actually say maybe bibliology even just
• 57:05
  because of the fact
• 57:06
  that that's going to kind of set the scene for them to again
• 57:09
  understand because
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: what I've been seeing more and more on –
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_00: TikTok or I don't even watch those things much,
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_00: but like TikTok or YouTube or these people out here are talking,
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_00: they're going to say things like,
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 57:20
  the Bible is not actually true or the Bible has a little bit of
• 57:23
  opinion and man
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: wrote these things.
• 57:25
  And if you start out that way and there's a lot of Christians
• 57:27
  out there who believe this,
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: it was written,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_00: but I've heard Christians tell me this.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it was written by man.
• 57:32
  And this is what you can get past a lot of arguments if you
• 57:36
  just understand that
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: God's word is God's word.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: And really, it ties into biblical literacy again.
• 57:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's like the biggest thing
• 57:42
  It kind of reminds me of I was in education before this and I
• 57:46
  went to this awesome
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: conference out in California.
• 57:47
  And it was only awesome because of this one thing the keynote
• 57:51
  speaker said.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_00: He said that he grew up not being able to read.
• 57:55
  He was dyslexic and almost kind of left him the dust until
• 57:58
  somebody kind of took
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: him in and said,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: hey,
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: we're going to help you be literate,
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: help you read.
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: And once he's reading, now he's a keynote speaker.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, you know, somebody left me alone never to read.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_00: I would have been who knows where.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_00: He said, but if you can learn how to read, you can do anything.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: And it is the truth.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_00: If you can read a manual, you can learn how to do anything.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it goes the same thing with the Bible.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't know how to read your Bible,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be in a world of hurt and you're going to spin all over.
• 58:22
  You're going to rely on other people to help you out with these
• 58:24
  other things.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: However,
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_00: if you can understand how to read the Bible,
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: dissect the Bible,
• 58:28
  what the Bible is saying and that it's inerrant and you become
• 58:30
  literate in the Bible,
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to be able to tackle a
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: all these other things.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: And they're all important.
• 58:36
  But I would even just say that the church probably needs to go
• 58:39
  back foundationally
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_00: and say,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: what is the Word of God?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is this the Word of God?
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, this is the Word of God.
• 58:45
  And we need to be able to get in it and need to know how to
• 58:47
  break it down and how
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: to advance into this and basically improve their biblical literacy.
• 58:52
  I think that's such a great point because there's that really
• 58:57
  odd but frequent
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: notion that sometimes occurs when
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: where people try to drive a dividing line between,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 59:04
  SPEAKER_01: Paul said this,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: what did Jesus actually say?
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's ironic.
• 59:10
  It's an ironic,
• 59:11
  but also it's a false dividing line because they're both the
• 59:16
  words of God.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 59:19
  But if you can't make the distinction or you don't make that
• 59:22
  distinction –
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're going to get into some really crazy areas.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: You're going to veer off into a lot of unfortunate places.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think you're right.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think to increase,
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_01: or we could say,
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_01: in order to restore the health of the American church,
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: I think biblical literacy,
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_01: which means biblical,
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_01: bibliology,
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_01: the doctrine of the Bible,
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_01: what is the Bible actually saying?
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: What is it supposed to be saying?
• 59:51
  SPEAKER_01: And how can we know that it is not only inerrant, it's inspired?
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: How can we know?
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: And what does the Bible actually say about those things?
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's interesting when you just,
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the most fascinating little passages in relation to that,
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_01: it's in one of the letters of Peter,
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's in 1 Peter,
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: where Peter's actually referencing Paul's writings as scripture.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_01: And he talks about how hard they are to understand.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's Peter himself saying that.
• 1:00:18
  Which I just think is like just a fascinating little like
• 1:00:21
  almost Easter egg,
• 1:00:22
  so to speak.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_01: But going back to that point,
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: too,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_01: on Sunday,
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: I made the comment that,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: there's some little places at the end of Paul's letters that.
• 1:00:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: are referring to scriptures.
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so even there you get this sense of Paul's not only delight,
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_01: but almost like need for the word to like just be in his life.
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: And he didn't even have the word as we have the word in terms of like,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_01: having,
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: like a codex of all of the pages of the Bible in front of him.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: But regardless,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: nevertheless,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: at that same point,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can see it throughout the Bible,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: the necessity of God's word.
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: And not only the necessity of it,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: the potency,
• 1:01:23
  SPEAKER_01: the availability,
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_01: the accessibility,
• 1:01:26
  and all of the ways in which it touches on all of the different
• 1:01:30
  areas of our lives,
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_01: just how pertinent it is to each of those areas,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: that comes back to bibliology.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the more we read...
• 1:01:40
  The more we're going to be literate in it and the more we can
• 1:01:43
  then understand what
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: God is saying about politics as we started at the beginning,
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: about suffering,
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: about salvation,
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: about himself as he reveals himself in Christ.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think you're right.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like the underlying – I've referenced this before too.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_01: that state of theology report that Ligonier and Lifeway always put out.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I always check the one statement that they have on there.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_01: They have it every year or every two years, how often they do it.
• 1:02:14
  But they always have that statement of like,
• 1:02:16
  what do you believe about the Bible?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_01: Is it actually God's word or is it just a collection of
• 1:02:21
  you know,
• 1:02:22
  ancient stories that are mostly true,
• 1:02:24
  but it's not really inspired.
• 1:02:26
  And it's the decline in people affirming that the Bible is
• 1:02:32
  actually God's Word.
• 1:02:34
  There's no way other to see the correlation between that and
• 1:02:39
  the decline of the
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: quote-unquote American church in the way in which people have
• 1:02:43
  maybe kind of taken more of a lackadaisical approach to it
• 1:02:49
  because they're not in the Word.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_01: They don't see the necessity.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_01: They don't see the urgency.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_01: They don't see what the Word is actually telling them about who God is,
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_01: about this world,
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: about how it's going to end,
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: and why it's so pertinent to proclaim the good news.
• 1:03:03
  SPEAKER_01: All of that comes back to a foundation on the Word,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: which,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a great point.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: and it's actually – I just recently had seen something like this too,
• 1:03:11
  and you did a great job of pointing it out that Peter's
• 1:03:14
  validating Paul as scripture.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_00: And the problem is when you go to tell somebody,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: like,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_00: why is the Bible the inerrant word of God?
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's like,
• 1:03:21
  SPEAKER_00: well,
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_00: it proves itself here,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: and it points it,
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_00: and it's like,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_00: the Bible proves the Bible.
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's like plugging my wall charger into itself,
• 1:03:29
  SPEAKER_00: an outlet into itself,
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: and it's going to get energy from itself.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't work, and it's like –
• 1:03:32
  The problem is people see because we are such in a blessed era
• 1:03:35
  where you can carry
• 1:03:36
  it in one binding that you forget that this is 66 books with a
• 1:03:40
  bunch of different authors.
• 1:03:41
  This is like going to the library and finding all these shelves
• 1:03:44
  that are validating each other.
• 1:03:45
  You wouldn't question it then that if the section in the Greek
• 1:03:48
  literature section
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: validated the romance section in this book that validated this,
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: we'd say,
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_00: if they're all writing about the same thing,
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: this must be true.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_00: And because people, they don't understand the Bible.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: They don't understand that it's a library.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's 66 books.
• 1:04:01
  SPEAKER_00: So they say, well, how can a book prove itself?
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't make sense.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, because it's a book proving another book.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Peter is writing a book,
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_00: a technical letter,
• 1:04:07
  SPEAKER_00: about Paul's letters,
• 1:04:09
  and it's cross-validating because they are outside sources of
• 1:04:11
  themselves collected
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_00: into this one body.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: But again,
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: it goes back to if you don't understand your Bible,
• 1:04:16
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to have a world of hurt,
• 1:04:17
  SPEAKER_00: and you're not going to be able to understand.
• 1:04:19
  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be really foolish in your debates.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to get into theological debates,
• 1:04:22
  I wouldn't recommend it if you don't understand the Bible's in
• 1:04:24
  there in order to God.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know.
• 1:04:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because you have no ground to stand on.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: You're standing on sinking sand.
• 1:04:28
  And how can you even explain about salvation and Christology
• 1:04:31
  and angels and the
• 1:04:33
  Holy Spirit if you don't even think this word of God – you
• 1:04:35
  think man wrote it?
• 1:04:37
  SPEAKER_01: So besides the obvious, besides going to the Bible –
• 1:04:43
  SPEAKER_01: Just go to the Bible, read the Bible.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Besides the Bible and besides our own,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: ology series,
• 1:04:48
  SPEAKER_01: which you can find on our church podcast,
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: because I don't want to be super self-referential,
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: self-promoting.
• 1:04:55
  But where would you point someone if you're like,
• 1:04:59
  hey,
• 1:04:59
  I want to read about systematic theology.
• 1:05:02
  SPEAKER_01: Where would you point someone?
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_00: What would you tell them?
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 1:05:06
  I mean there's a lot of good resources out there,
• 1:05:08
  and I would even say read multiple sources.
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_00: I know the Moody Institute has some really good systematic theology.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: But doing a lot of – there's just so much material out there.
• 1:05:17
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's different denominations that have different approaches.
• 1:05:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's why it's good to read and cross-reference that.
• 1:05:21
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what I would recommend,
• 1:05:22
  just going out there and reading as much as you can about it
• 1:05:26
  and maybe even getting
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_00: into – maybe somebody else that's not a pastor,
• 1:05:30
  SPEAKER_00: one of your Christian friends.
• 1:05:32
  And just sit down together and maybe do your own little study
• 1:05:34
  over it and just kind
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: of hash it out.
• 1:05:36
  SPEAKER_00: What do we understand about it?
• 1:05:37
  Because what you're going to find out by doing these things and
• 1:05:39
  going out to these
• 1:05:40
  SPEAKER_00: resources of these books that have systematic theologies,
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_00: you're going to find you definitely don't know the depths of it.
• 1:05:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we could ourselves continue to dive deeper into those categories.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 1:05:50
  SPEAKER_01: I would recommend reading En's book on theology.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_01: He has a systematic book.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_01: Erickson, Millard Erickson, he has a systematic book.
• 1:05:59
  SPEAKER_01: Also, Alistair McGrath, I'm reading his.
• 1:06:03
  SPEAKER_01: His has a really good systematic theology book, so really good resources.
• 1:06:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for...
• 1:06:08
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening, everyone.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_01: Hope you've been blessed by this episode.
• 1:06:11
  Please subscribe to the Ministry Minded Podcast on Apple
• 1:06:14
  Podcasts or Spotify or
• 1:06:15
  SPEAKER_01: wherever you get your podcasts.
• 1:06:17
  SPEAKER_01: Once again, I appreciate all your encouragement and your support.
• 1:06:21
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks again for listening.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_01: See you on the next one.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_01: Blessings.