Latest / Breaking Down Addiction / #22 Matt Culp — Do the Next Hardest Thing: Surrender, Service, & Long-Term Recovery

Transcript

#22 Matt Culp — Do the Next Hardest Thing: Surrender, Service, & Long-Term Recovery · Breaking Down Addiction

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a desperate situation, you get wrapped in gear mind and fear, just move your feet.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Then afterwards, just do the next hardest thing.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to a new episode of Breaking Down Addiction, a podcast brought to you by national addiction specialists.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: And on our podcast, we have individuals in long-term recovery telling their story of experience, strength, and hope.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: And some easy questions, some tough questions.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: But today, our guest is from Threshold Recovery.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: You have your own podcast yourself called Powerful Beyond Measure.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_01: Please welcome Matt Culp.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yay.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: How's it going?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's going good.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_01: Good.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: We we always start the same with the same question for all these podcast episodes.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that is if you were sitting across from yourself in active addiction, like in your deepest, darkest bottom, and you're sitting across from him, what would you say to yourself?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh, I should have prepared.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um let me think I think that you're selling yourself short.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: That there's way more to come that you if you just let it go, you have everything you want in life.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think you sold yourself short?
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's probably easier answers for that, but I just think I didn't know my worth.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: I thought I was stuck.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_00: I think wrapped in like um maybe like wrapped in like shame of just the addiction itself.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Just kind of um like I knew I had something in me that was like successful or powerful, but I didn't I thought I was worth death, really.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: I can level with that.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I could like I was better off dead.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then I got like a God complex because the first time I over overdosed back in tw 2009 maybe, uh when I came out of it, I kind of felt like God wasn't gonna allow me to I had a weird relationship with God at the current at higher power at the time, but like when I came out of it, I I felt like he wasn't gonna take me.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: So then it threw me into well, I'm just gonna see if that's true or not.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then that perpetuated myself into like that type of addiction where I would binge and do a lot at once.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like a death wish, almost like a death wish, yes.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: And but you thought you were kind of above it.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Almost, right?
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like God save me, he has my back, he's gonna continue to do so.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: But I didn't know the value of myself beyond that.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just knew that he wasn't gonna take me.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: And like I'd like crossed the like a threshold where I just uh I just wasn't gonna come back from, you know?
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: I kind of accepted it.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, speaking about God, you've mentioned in the past that you've been touched by God.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: What is what does that look like personally for you and has that changed over time?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Different things happen.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think that my initial relationship with a higher power was um like I probably did my first third step ever in this bathroom in Tullahoma where I lived in this townhouse.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, God take me, I'm nothing.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: You can have my life, I don't know what I'm doing.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: But like I didn't really understand the concept around what do you do afterwards, you know?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And like I wasn't willing to like separate myself from, I wasn't willing to do what it takes, you know.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: By the time I got sober, it was whatever you need me to do, you know.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: So when I had landed in a 12-step fellowship that I've been in and out of my whole life, just kind of like everything that was um, it was like I didn't hear anything before.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like as soon as I sat down, I was there.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had earned my seat.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: But when I had like took the third step, it was like something profound happened to me.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like a white light experience, it was like immediately I became disciplined.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was immediate, I became like my voice pattern changed, who I was changed.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't like it wasn't like an experience, but like I was different after.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: And it was immediate, like you when you walked out of the bathroom, or did it happen over time?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: No, like it was something that I was aware of over time.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, but very quickly.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't like, oh boom, this was an experience I had.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: It was like somehow I just went from a guy that goes job to job, paycheck to paycheck, never showing up to work, going to staff and agency, working for three days, going to get drugs, to a person that never missed a day of work for eight years, zero days.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like it just I became immediately responsible, immediate discipline, immediate, like almost like a wisdom was put into me, kind of.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: It was a weird situation.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's probably hard to explain.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's always hard to explain a spiritual experience.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: But um, I do know that I've been around like recovery long enough to know that my experience with it has been different than what I've seen, but also know that I when I'm like doing step work, like I experientially do it versus analytically or some like a homework deal.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_00: I am doing what I'm being asked, but like when I'm taking step one, like I take step one, like I feel defeated afterwards.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it wasn't like oh I'm planning to feel defeated.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: It was like that was the byproduct of.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So like, well, what do I do?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I'm powerless.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to drink and use no matter what.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: That's a depleting feeling, you know?
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, well, this is what we do.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: There might be a higher power out here, you know.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So like it was something that I like internally and experientially felt.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I that's not a common, super common experience, but a lot of people were doing it analytically and think that it's gonna happen for them.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Did you so in 2009 there was an overdose that happened?
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, overdose a lot after that.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: So when did you first dip your toes into did you go to treatment?
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think my first treatment was 2005, 2006, and then I've been to You were messing around with it for the years to come.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: How many times do you think you've been?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think nine.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think I've been to treatment as many times as I've overdosed.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Some of those looked like IOP, some of them look like early prevention, like uh child adolescent stuff.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Because I was introduced I introduced drugs myself at early early age.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, I think nine treatment centers.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And when was the last time uh used?
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_00: Last time I went.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um June 28th, 2014.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to uh I was furloughed out of a county jail.
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: And I went to uh I went to Buffalo Valley, a grand facility.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: How long were you in in jail for?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Nine, ten months, something like that.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: Seems like a long time.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I wasn't, I didn't want to leave.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was very era of my life where I had realized like I'm not safe with with myself, you know, and like I'm okay, just I wanna.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: When they were like, do you want to go to treatment?
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_00: Waste of time, just leave me in jail.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to get out on probation?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, flatten my time.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to leave treatment?
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_00: No, I want to stay forever.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like I was very afraid of I'm not even sure if I was afraid or just knew I couldn't be trusted.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_01: Going out, you would have you would have overdosed again, you would have some bad shit.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, up until that point while in jail, that was the most successful I'd ever been.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, healthy.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's the most healthy I've ever been.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: For that nine, ten months.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, and then going to treatment, that's the most healthy I've been.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you get in a place where you're like, well, I don't want to change what's happening, you know.
• 9:04
  unknown: Yeah.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: I I wasn't like um, I was um it was like a step zero moment for me, kind of prior to me going to I turned myself into jail.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And and then interesting.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know tell me about that.
• 9:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I was living out in Oregon.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kind of like a prior to my life, I'm like a Vagabond spirit.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: Is it that's the word?
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh a gypsy soul, kind of like I would just I was a runner, yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: So like I had ran to uh Oregon to run away from myself.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Figured I wouldn't be out there.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: Geographical change is gonna be the solution.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've been geographical changing a lot before that.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_00: I just like to move.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I ended up out there and I was it's a longer story, but I was no one's around me that I really know from two to 2,000 miles.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_00: I feel kind of trapped.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I also go out there and start using again and drinking.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um and like when I got out there, it was like I'm I'm still here, you know?
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I kept like uh I was on uppers and I was drinking.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: And something that happens when you're on uppers when you're like in a group is like a lot of times you'll talk about something that y'all all want to do.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you don't know how many times I've talked about going to Fall Creek Falls, but we never went, you know?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: So in this circumstance, we were talking about going to church over and over, me and this girl and the neighbor girl, and like we were all doing uppers, and we want to go to church.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like some reason one day I just kind of like I'm gonna like do it.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I like shave my face and put on a tie and put on a shirt, and I go to the church, and like it was this Lutheran church, it was like this weird, it had like these uh big crosses across there.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's why we would always talk about it.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I go over there, nothing profound happens.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: I don't remember anything that happened.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: I know they were nice to me.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: You dug it somewhat.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I did.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: Directly after that, my life got real bad real quick, and like uh I was I ended up back on a bus in about five days because I had drink, and um I don't really know exactly what happened, but I I physically or threatened, or I'm gonna say probably physically harmed the girl that I was living with.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't really know, I was drinking, so I don't really know.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: I know the police showed up, um, and then her and I'm really calm, cool, and collected.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: So in those situations, usually they're I raid and like I understand probably what happened.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't go to jail because I'm usually like, I don't know what's going on.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: She, you know.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: But then her ex-husband shows up and her dad shows up, and they're like, You gotta go.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: And they put me back on a bus.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: To come back home to Tennessee?
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the the deal was is no matter what, we'll get you a plane ticket, no matter what.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, what about the plane ticket?
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, I'll get you a greyhound, you know.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I ride back, and when I get back to Memphis after this trip on this Greyhound for how many ever days it was, my dad picks me up.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have to talk to him, talk him into picking me up, and he asks me why I'm back.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I kind of got sober on a lie a little bit because I didn't want to tell him what happened.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, Well, I've been running on a warrant.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: I can't get an apartment, I can't get a license, I can't get my name on anything.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: I need to turn myself into jail, which was an outright lie.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Though those were true, but like I wasn't, I just didn't want to be truthful about what was going on.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So within two weeks, I turned myself into the county jail that I was running on a warrant from.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: They were as long as surprised as I was.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'm not gonna tell the truth, but I'm gonna make at least a step here.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it was conscious.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was just a lie.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: I looking back, it's like um I I I've identified that I got sober on a lie.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Once I made that choice, I realized that I was kind of healthy.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I once I had then went to ended ended up in treatment again after arguing with the judge about not going back to treatment, he um I had realized that like my life was becoming better because I was making harder choices.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's about as all I had like in my soul of like recovery.
• 13:43
  SPEAKER_00: But I was like, um, I'm just gonna make the next hardest choice.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: So when I left, instead of running from halfway house or running from, which is what I would do when I would leave treatment, they would go, you need to go here.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, Yeah, I'm going.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever suggestion they had, I would not do.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of doing that and go back to Memphis or wherever I was, I went to Murfreesboro.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: My sister lived there, and um it was not the choice that I wanted to make.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um then we get out, I get out and we did like the family weekend, which was great.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: Me and my sister had a great experience.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, they had informed her of what I should be doing.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So like uh, probably like the first day, she goes, Aren't you supposed to be going to like meetings?
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Or you just gotta go to a meeting tonight?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, Well, I'll just go.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: And she's like, No, no, you're going today.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_00: And she put me in the car and takes me.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: Your sister like laid down that boundary.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Which I would have never been in the my sister had offered me this opportunity for five years, but I knew that I would destroy it.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So something in me knew.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: You might have a better shot this time.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that I wouldn't hurt her.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Something in me was like uh uh this is probably gonna go okay.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna steal her shit.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna leave and I'm not gonna OD in her house.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt I felt good about me being there.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I totally get that.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: But she had dropped, we had gone to this meeting, we tried to find the meeting.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: Back then it wasn't as accessible, like internet and like finding meetings.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it took us a long time to find it.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: We went to like three to places that didn't exist.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: We finally ended up at this meeting, and this lady was she was probably 55 or 60.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is how I know I was sick, but she was like this old biker lady named Michelle, and uh she was probably like 50 yards away from me, and I was like, you know, dang little mama, you know.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like I was not, I was not healthy.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you know, just the way I thought about the world at the moment.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at 50 yards, she looked good, probably.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I felt like I was in the right place.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: Once I was there, I felt I felt like I was in the right place.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like these people, it felt like home immediately.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: These people understand me.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Was this so back when you when you this long stint of sobriety, was this towards the the beginning of that?
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, correct.
• 16:23
  SPEAKER_01: You were it's funny because you have a sober living now and you were reluctant to sober living at the rip, right?
• 16:32
  unknown: Yeah.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Like tell tell me about that, like what was going on.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: The ideas and concepts I had about sober living or back then they really didn't call them sober livins, they called them halfway houses.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I the concept was is that I thought that I was gonna be metal bunks, people telling me what to do, prison environment, punitive like people with their thumb on me, you know?
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I don't like that shit, you know.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm pretty the defiant person.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: So um, I mean that's what I thought it was.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: So like one, I've realized that it's not that.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: There are some places like that, but it's not really like that.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's more it's a home in which people live and guys get to support other guys, support other guys, and like it's not punitive.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's you go to meetings together, it's socially accountable.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like and I know that relapse does sometimes happen in sober living, and that that seems to be part of the process almost, right?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, that and like learning how to deal with people in a house is very also part of it.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, oh, you stole my milk, am I gonna choke you out, or like are we gonna talk about it?
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like and like a lot of those examples of like how you're handling yourself, like you don't know a lot of people.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know like how to handle conflict or how to handle life.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like my sponsor told me early on that you don't need any more uh affairs than you have principles.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're on step one, you need a house.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're on step two, you might need a house and a job.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like you don't you don't need any more affairs than you need principles, you don't have the tools, you know.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Which directly doesn't correlate with principles, you know, but it's a pretty good model of how you should operate your life.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, if you're not operating on two principles, you probably don't need nine affairs.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: Watch it.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Sober sober living recovery residence.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I like that you were like they used to be called halfway houses.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: They used to be.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them still are, I guess.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: So your your sober living, it's it's non-punitive.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost something that you probably wanted or needed, or what you thought sober living was supposed to be.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Some of I've I've had help along the way from like Tenar and NAR concepts and the principles and stuff, but yeah, in in reality, this is what uh what I thought I would need.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um the standards in which to live by pretty much.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like, is it nice?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: Would I live there?
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_00: Is it comfortable?
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: Is it does the yard look good?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: Is it a place?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a good defining point if you'd live there yourself.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because if you have this place, you're like, I don't want to live there, how do you put dudes in there then?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good way for me to look at it, which I told somebody two days ago, is you know, I have a bunch of houses, but like if this is if this is where I would send my son.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a good way for me to look at it.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: Would I send my son there?
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_01: Great way of looking at it.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_01: But you've so you've talked about yourself and and you've called yourself a vessel and a heart of service.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_01: What what does all that mean to you?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think the heart of service is this one of the things that happened to me.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: More of like a um, you know, I think that when a higher power enters your life, like it's something, it's a byproduct of what happens.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like you want to serve, you want to be um you want to work for him.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And like that's kind of the concept in which uh 12-step fellowship invites you to meet God is you he you're he's the employer and you're the employee.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's the director and you're the agent, you know.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um so like it it changes the position in your life.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: So honestly, like I feel like I work for God.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: Now, over time, I've struggled with uh like first probably the first five, six years, I struggled with like grace.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I can level with that.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because a lot of times in in uh 12-step fellowship, there's a lot of like little things.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um work with another alcoholic, you know, uh is will get you out of certain trials and low spots.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: Work, work, work.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um, like a lot of like little stuff kind of puts you in the space where you think you're earning your way to God.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And like I had to really unwind some of that stuff and know that I'm okay no matter what I do.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I think the vessel part is me not something that was given to me or a byproduct, it was more of understanding the concept that what's things inside of me is like um I have to allow to be removed, or I'm not gonna have the experience with God.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's what blocks me from God.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So through Being a vessel, heart of service, threshold, sober living.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Give me like a really great example of somebody that didn't want to come near Silver Living or somebody that you've helped and guided.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: Give me an ex a good example of a story that has happened there.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: Huh.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think that um to answer the question, I have to kind of also keep it anonymous.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: They know who I am.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: They know who they are.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_00: Cool.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'd probably have to say that I preface by I got into sober living by accident and I did not love the idea.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it was a a guy that I helped get sober and he wanted to do it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then I was just along for the ride.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And over time I fell in love with it.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: What I fell in love with is this space of like uh I call it like in the gap.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: So and in in AA they have this thing called in the gap, which is they're not really great at it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was gonna be my next question, too, about in the gap.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what it means to you personally and in your recovery.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they like uh in AA they have what well, what happens between treatment and you going to a meeting?
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they they're not really, they haven't really figured it out.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: There is a committee, they try, but like I've learned that sober living is like a very great place for this to happen.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, um, you know, when you get out of treatment and you're in the sober living, and you go, a lot of times, like this is what it means for me.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you're sitting there, you're on the front porch, you might meet someone, and they go, I go, Do you have a sponsor yet?
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: And they go, uh, I do, but he's not answering the phone.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: I've called him three times.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: And they kind of give up on it.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I go, Well, you need a new sponsor.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that well, here's some numbers.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: You should call Josh.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like y'all will get along.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Also, just to time out on that, yeah.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: Having a sponsor and calling them and not picking up, I have used that as an excuse to not have a sponsor.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I have one, he's just not picking up.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then there's no work that's being done.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so like to me, that's the in the gap stuff that happens.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um I would say, like I probably have like 30 stories of like specific people that I've came into contact with that was never like, oh, I'm gonna try to do this.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's just we just happened.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And me being there, talking to them the first day, first week, first month that they're there, and just hanging out, talking, being ourselves is like alluded them to an idea and concept that you can be free and sober and have fun in whatever way that happened.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um and a lot of those people have great lives, successful.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of them work in treatment or business development or own sober livings, or some of them have normal lives, but I wouldn't say I guess normal lives, not working in this field, but the success stories is what makes it worth it for me, and also the the in-between and the tough stuff, yeah.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like seeing somebody get it and see the light and do the work and move on and have a great life.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, eventually that's gotta be really rewarding.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: I had a group come through about three years ago.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they're all four years sober, so four and three, three years ago, four years, three years ago.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: Probably about ten guys, and like I was just privy to be near them, you know.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, they leaned on me and I had like some influence.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: They like to say I have more influence than I did, but I mean I had about two percent influence.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_00: I get it, yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: But um just so wonderful group of guys, and like we really like expounded on that at threshold and made it like a place where people would like to be.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's an accountable place that networks and have fun and that's together, and all those people have successful lives, but afterwards it took about two, three years for all of them to transfer out, you know.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we all we're all friends still, but like but it like I wouldn't say it made me jaded, but took a lot for me to restart and do it again because I think it's because I'm older, like, and I'm you know, at the time I had like 10 years sobriety or eight or something like that, and they're like, you know, going to toots every night and playing volleyball, and they're always like involved trying to involve me.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you know, I'm saying no a lot, you know, but it was it just took a lot out of me because I'm I'm not I don't live in that space anymore.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Dude.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_01: Newcomer space.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: I get it.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Hardcore.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that I did it.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that I went with them.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: I I probably wouldn't change it.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like you have a business and you have kids now too.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: That that plugs up your time, and you have to figure out once you get older and you have these new responsibilities, you have to figure out where to give your energy to and who.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it's not like they're not worth your energy.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just like you have a certain bandwidth every day, every week.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of the things that changed for me during that period right before is I used to chase like the not the bad ones, but I had shifted how I operate.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I would only, not only, but I was pouring into the people that were great.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I think threshold over time changed to that model also.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of being so, well, this guy's not doing it.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna try to pull him.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: It was more like, okay, these six guys in this home are doing great.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna pour into them, whatever they want to do.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like, y'all want to get together and go bowling.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we want to make this so attractive that these people either jump on board or they don't, like, instead of trying to chase these people.
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, in that motion, that's kind of when that had happened for me and those guys.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, at the same time, you have these six guys doing well, for example, yeah, doing the work.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: You want to give your energy to somebody that's actually doing the work and showing up, right?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you want to give the the people that are fucking around an opportunity still, but like you can only chase so far and so long.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um speaking to these guys, because you it's a men's sober living.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what do you see as the biggest struggles for somebody coming out of treatment, jail, or homelessness?
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think the biggest I think it it's different for men and women.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the biggest struggle for men is that we try to wrest satisfaction and happiness out of this world if we can only manage well.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: And that looks like for men, money, work, and women.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm 35 years old, I don't have a bank account, I I don't, I owe a partner, I owe my license, I owe this, I don't have a car.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_00: The answer is I'm gonna work 70 hours a week because on paper, that is an answer.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm going to make as much money and I'm gonna get the car as fast as possible, and get the girl as fast as possible, and get the house as fast as possible.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not ready because I never did the work.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: And like And that's all shit getting in the way.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's all shit getting the way.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And like it it is a paradox to look at the wall in a 12-step program and go, I'm gonna admit I'm powerless, give my life to God, do an inventory, um, tell God and somebody else about it.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to let go of my character defects and make amends.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: And this is gonna get me out of poverty and get my license back.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: And like on paper, terrible choice.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like a paradox.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: When I do those things, all the other stuff gets took care of.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like totally it's kind of like tithing.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like somehow you hear a story like, oh, I've been giving 10%, but somehow I got more money.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how that's working, but it just happens like that.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's like but talking men into that is the hardest thing in the world to do.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of us are thick headed too, and we have these goals and we can't see anything but them.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I get it because when when I first got sober, I wanted all the things too.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I didn't have money or a partner or a um a house.
• 30:57
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do the the next right thing and keep doing the next right thing, like you said, everything else will fall together.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: It just happens for you.
• 31:06
  unknown: Yeah.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: Women, I owned a women's sober living.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I really feel weird about men open sober living, but we had one and a woman was in place, you know?
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: You feel weird about a man a man opening a women's sober living?
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've been approached like a lot of times about it, you know.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've just got approached two weeks ago about opening a 50-bed women's thing.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: It happens a lot, but we had like a woman in between that had like 10, 15 years of sobriety.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: So like we were never on site, we were never um but women, it's the kids.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: It the problem is the thing that they can't overlook and like uh get past is the children.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like as soon as they sit down at intake, how do I get my kids back and when do I get them back?
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they're not trying to figure out their sobriety, no, it's taking their inventory now.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: I hate to say this because about men, but I could know a man for a year sitting on the front porch vaping.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, I'm gonna man, I'm going to see my kid this weekend.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I go, kid, you you never even, you know.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: You didn't tell me for like a whole year.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_00: You didn't tell me for a whole year, yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it's just a weird and I hate to say that about men, but they have their own problem with the money and the and all that stuff.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: So but they'll like women will leave sober living five weeks in because they think somebody's not taking care of their kids and it's their it's their mom and they said, Hey, we got it.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: One little mishap happened and they'll jump up and leave.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and they just naturally aren't focused on their recovery.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're trying to get to their children as fast as possible.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: Which part of me can't I can't blame them for that.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it makes sense.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: Especially if the man is not focused on the kid.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Correct.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Or kids.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of times that is what's going on, too.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like the I mean family systems and dynamics of drug addiction is not usually healthy, and usually the grandparents have them or somebody else has them, not not the dad, you know.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they are in troublesome situations.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: And but it's like building it on sand, you know.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: If you can't find concrete structure under you, and you go get your kids, we're gonna be in the same situation.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you're gonna end up relapse and losing your kid again, and it could be even more severe than the same thing with the money and the girls in the car for the guy, you know?
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, sure.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: You you made thirty thousand dollars more than you would have made every other year.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_00: Sure, you did, but now you're high and you spend it all.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was worth nothing.
• 33:52
  unknown: Yeah.
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: All of this is tying into my next question.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_01: So what's the the fine line between freedom and accountability?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: With like with because you said that nobody makes you do anything.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know, so what's the what's the line between freedom and accountability here?
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: Because somebody has a certain level of freedom, I'm sure.
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: In recovery or in sober living?
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: Let's let's do recovery.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of things have intertwined for me on how to help people, like being a father, being a part of uh 10R, and like learning social model, being a sponsor, being in recovery myself, watching others has really helped me understand people are gonna do what they want to do.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um I think accountability doesn't look like, oh, I told you that this was gonna be a failure.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_00: That was that's just me saying, I'm smart and I knew that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like accountability and freedom is like, I think what we have to do is like people that are sober is make this so advantageous.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like these six people, like we were talking about earlier, are so cool that I want to be with we all want to be with the cool people.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the cool people are doing the work.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, that is the way it's more of an attraction versus like a tribalism of like if everybody's doing the right thing and I'm not, I might fail, and they're not beating on me when I fail.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I've seen that they're happy and successful.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: It might not be my time if they're not gonna like beat on me.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because beating on people when they're down is like the worst thing that you could do.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and taking advantage of people like in sober living and not just recovery.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it happens in recovery too, but like telling people like they're in a vulnerable situation, they're in poverty, most of them, not all of them, but like I could make you do the dishes, you know, because of who I am at this place and who you are at this place.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_00: But uh if I ever offend you, you'll never receive anything from me ever again.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_00: But if I I got what I wanted, you did you did the dishes, you'll do them because you ain't got nowhere to go.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you'll never get anything from me ever again.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: Same thing with sponsorship, like we're in a room of people that are you you might get something from somebody that's negative, or you might even get something from people that fail.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like watching others be a dry drunk, you go, well, I don't want that, you know.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: But as a sponsor, I've seen people be took advantage of or talked down to, or I just don't know I've seen that too.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_00: I think some people need that, but there is a line of like where is it disrespectful or where is it preying on somebody vulnerable.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_00: I needed a little bit of aggressive uh some tough love.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: I did, yes.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_01: So did I.
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just uh for me I wasn't taking responsibility for myself or the things that I should be doing.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think where the line was like there's a certain value in this, but like every time I pick up a six-month ship, I mean he's there to congratulate me.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: He threw the party for me, but then he goes, the seven months the hardest.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Buckle your seatbelt.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: Shit ain't even started yet.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_01: So there was always like this you're doing great, but there was there was an ellipsis on that and like almost like a negative perspective looming over it.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think I needed it early on, and over time I think he shifted into a place where he was visually, emotionally proud of me.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: But it took a long time.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think I needed it early on.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he would.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I come from like a family where my father was um passive, um, I guess is the word.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um was your mu was your mother opposite?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: No, she wasn't aggressive either.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: Very like she was more heartfelt and like she would talk to me about stuff, but my dad was like more obsolete, passive and lenient, high expectations, but not really tell you what you should be doing.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_00: I told you once you just you should know.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I did.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_01: Has that helped you be a better parent?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_00: In in both ways.
• 38:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like it's helped me.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: I hug my son every day.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: I tell him I love him every day.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I t I I tell him I'm proud of him a lot, you know?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_01: Did you not get that?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_00: I did not get that, but I also it helps me be a parent.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's opposite of being like kind of like a blend of like, hey, I'm gonna show you how to do this once, we're gonna do it together once, and then you should know how to do it.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: We're not gonna argue about it, we're not gonna, I'm not gonna yell at you next time.
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know how to do it, you know, like but my dad would just be like, go hook the tractor up and bush hog this field.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, I would just be down there in the field.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean And you don't get any instructions, yeah, yeah.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: Figure shit out on your own.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I am very glad, like long term, it became it made me a very great, not an emotional creature, but it made me a very good business owner.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: It made me a great person to get something achieved.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need you to hold my hand.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: You can figure things out on your own.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: I can figure things out on my own.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: So somewhere in between that is where I would like to parent and help people also.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: But also, maybe you've been given too much freedom.
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sure, I was that's why there's a lot of issues that happened.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 40:02
  unknown: Yeah, yes.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I could totally level I can level with all this stuff.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: So when I met my sponsor, he was very vocal and very assertive and aggressive, and that was something I felt like I needed.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I was attached.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I learned later that that's how his father speaks to him, and that's why he speaks to me.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't a good thing, but I needed it at the time.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I just I mean, he would like he'd be like, you don't even know how to read, I'll read it for you.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like you're not smart enough to think.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'll I'll think for you, you know.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean, I was it was true, I couldn't read or write at the time, and I didn't know what I was doing in my life, you know.
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_00: It was able for me to like uh set expectations for me and to stand up to them and like have some type of role model to achieve to.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: At some point I bypassed and surpassed what he was offering me.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: That's a longer story, but no, thank you for sharing what you did.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um just to shift gears a little bit.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: How has helping how has you helping others helped your recovery?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say it's helped, I'd say it's saved me.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: Good answer.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean and tell me more about that.
• 41:35
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh bless.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um I mean, I'm like a very literature-based person, so like big book?
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't say 12 and 12?
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't say, yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: More big book.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: 12 and 12, too, but like a lot of spiritual literature other than that.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: But like I've read it and understand it so many times that I understand what it's telling me.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: And it working with another alcoholic is pretty much the thing that is gonna save my life.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_00: It also is the thing in which the concept is made entirely about it's not about turning your life to God.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's not, I mean, those are benefits.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: It's not about doing any of those things.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's literally Bill was walking around in a hospital and said, I'm gonna help this other alcoholic.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's an egomaniac stockbroker.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, he's not like a martyr here.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like he just stumbled upon something.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_00: He said, When I help this guy, stay sober.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even have to be a good person for that to work.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_00: That it just works in rough going.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: It works when nothing he figured it out.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like before that, however old you think the earth is, let's say 2,000 years.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um uh before that, drunks just meandered around and sometimes they had spiritual experiences and they didn't drink anymore.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Very there was no rhyming.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: That was very rare.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there was nothing for drunks back in, you know, before the 30s.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: The big book came around.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you go through the big book and you're anywhere near not wanting to read it, not wanting to get it, you open up and read the doctor's opinion, it's mind-blowing that was written in the 30s, and every single piece of it can apply to today, yeah.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: Almost a hundred years later.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes for every story in the book.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_01: But it's also funny that the big book, The Sex Stuff, is on page 69.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's fine.
• 43:37
  SPEAKER_01: Acceptance 421.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's it's absolutely incredible, and it does give you a framework.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think I mean, I think the treatment industry has come a long way.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think they're the threshold and the barriers, lowering barriers is a good thing and a bad thing at this at our like level, but like even in the The doctors mean he talks about like we've tried anything of like uh synthetic knowledge, pretty much anything outside of ourselves, or so pretty much they back then, 85 years ago or whatever it was, they were trying, they had tried everything in the medical and addiction treatment then, and we're still attempting, and we found different ways and stuff, but it's kind of like uh in so many ways.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm a 12-step guy, so I'm like, we told you the answer 85 years 85 years ago, you know.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, yeah.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I think treatment has come an incredible long way, and I've I didn't go to a lot of these, but I hear stories of like, okay, the first day I walked in, we there was a chair in the room and I had to talk to my inner child.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: We had to talk about childhood trauma.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: And like, do I think that's the complete answer to addiction and alcoholism?
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that like we're carrying a lot more weight than we were 85 years ago of like affecting change in humans.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and freeing them from things that is shameful and hurt holding them down, you know.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: I do believe that our childhood trauma is who makes us a big part of what we are today, then we have to address that.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I do for sure.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think that it naturally correlates with I'm kind of a weirdo, I guess maybe, but I don't think it naturally correlates with addiction.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that it's definitely a barrier for sure.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_00: Some people just like to drink and use.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: They had they're not predisposed to it.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: They had okay childhoods.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: That was me.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody, every child is like traumatized or neglected, or you know, something happened.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Abandoned.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_00: Abandoned.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Your your parents didn't say one thing to you one time that you thought you should get, and like you're traumatized for every, you know, like they left you in a car for five minutes, and you but you didn't know, you thought it was six hours when you were three, and like, you know, you don't know.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, there's a lot of things that happen to us.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody's traumatized and abandoned and neglected in some form or fashion.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm I'm more, I believe like I was wired different from birth.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_00: Nature over nurture, I guess.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's a great answer.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_00: I think I was maybe predetermined to go through what I go th went through.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I don't think I would be who I am without the bad shit or the good shit.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_01: That I think that goes for everybody too.
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_01: Especially that's a as somebody that's done work on themselves.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, there's some people out in the world that have not addressed all that stuff.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_01: They are the person who they have become because of it, but they they have some work to do.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, there's people that just ain't ever did nothing.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: They just hate their they just hate their brother forever and they ain't ever coming up off of it.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: They're gonna die with it.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there's this kind of piggybacks onto my my next question, but you like that that saying faith without works is dead.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, how does that level with you personally?
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: Faith without works is dead.
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure it levels with me as much as it used to.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Finding like more grace in my life.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: That's interesting.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um I do I think I've learned more of the concept of like what understanding that like more in an effective way to have spirituality.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I do understand that like doing the physical work within myself doesn't have to be so strenuous as it was early on.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I understand more of what I'm doing long term.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm removing what's in me that's blocking me from him.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't need some.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, sometimes I've been stubborn and hard-headed.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, one time it took me too.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_00: One time it took me three months arguing with my sponsor to write the word inventory.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: The word.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: Because you so didn't want to do your inventory.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, it's the same shit's on there from the one I wrote five months ago.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I still don't like her.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_00: I still don't like the way she's talking, you know.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I mean, what am I writing the new one for?
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: And I did learn, I did write it.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it, and there was more stuff on it, and I did learn more.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: But I was so defiant.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_00: I I think that I'm also defiant now, but I also don't have to wade through a bunch of work that wasn't necessary.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'm not a person that does this out of virtue.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: I do this because I beat myself over the head a bunch of times, and I've realized that I'm selfish or that I have that this thing's blocking me, or that this character defects in my way.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I it was my toy, and I wanted to play with it.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: And it was my little design to my life, and like I enjoyed it.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_00: Otherwise, I wouldn't be doing it.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_00: And I've learned that like I'm not doing it out of virtue, I'm doing it until I reach a place that I don't can't stand it anymore.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's fatal for me.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't have to do like a bunch of book work or writing, or I just have to let it go.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: I mean I feel that in my soul, actually.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's sometimes it's me just pushing as hard as I can through the character defect.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's get to the fatality as quick as possible.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, otherwise you're gonna play with it for 10 years, Matt.
• 50:03
  SPEAKER_01: You may never address it.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_00: You may never address it.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty good about addressing it.
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_00: I honestly feel like I'm right at the cusp in my personal life where I've been dealing with something for 10, 15 years, maybe longer, and it's like the last thing in my life that I'm unwilling.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_01: You're weeding through the big bullshit.
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've already weed through it.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_00: I only have this like one thing left in my life, and I'm struggling with letting it go, you know?
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I get it.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like if I do this one thing, like I don't know what else would be easier.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what else is left.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's you'll always discover more, dude.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: I know seriously, because I'm I'm coming up on 14 years in a month, and every it seems like every year or six months I discover something unearth itself to work on.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think I I think I realize that this thing is what's caused the shit of all the other little things.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's it's my codependency.
• 51:06
  SPEAKER_00: It's my I mean, that's what it is.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's my codependency.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_00: And like, I don't even think I was aware of it, but uh you know, early in sobriety, it's I'm angered, let's get rid of the anger.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now I'm fearful of the situation.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well, I'm gonna do the work and get rid of the fear.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_00: Well, then I realize, well, I'm allowing people to be in my life that are causing me to be angry.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not an angry person, you know.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: So you're not being yourself and you're living in that space frequently.
• 51:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm then I'm afraid that I'm going to act out of anger.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like I just need to remove the, I'm afraid to remove the person off the list.
• 51:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like, because I'm codependent.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: If we just remove the codependency, which I I have learned when I went to on site that like we're not gonna probably not gonna get rid of codependency.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's how do I show up today?
• 51:59
  SPEAKER_00: Like if we had a 20 20-point checklist, are you in a healthy space today?
• 52:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like you're probably not gonna.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's more of like a like an eating disorder, like an eating addiction, like you can't not eat.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's who you are.
• 52:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like, can you eat healthier today?
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_01: But like that's a good metaphor for it.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I pr I appreciate you sharing that.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: I hate it.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I could eradicate it.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, just just shifting gears here a little bit.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, thanks for sharing all that.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: But um, what do you think separates the men who have go out and have achieve sobriety, long-term sobriety recovery, and go back out and use again?
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: That's a great question.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_00: Surrender of ego, probably.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like uh whatever it looks like, whatever's in their way.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the most successful men I've seen is like men that have showed up and said, This car, I don't want it, sell it, get rid of it.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: The girl, get rid of her.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want it.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't, it's I can't do anything.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's not serving me.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's not serving me.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'm willing to do whatever they say.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_00: I don't need anything else in my life but this now.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think I think I've seen I think I've seen um that happen like temporarily before.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: I'm trying to think like long term.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is it?
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_00: Everybody I got sober with was on fire.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: It was a great time in my life and recovery, my home group.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the only person left.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, how?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_00: What's the difference?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know?
• 53:54
  SPEAKER_00: Some of them are back.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: Did some die?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 53:59
  unknown: Okay.
• 54:01
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's some that came a year after me that are around, two years, so they were kind of in that group.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: But even in that group, there's only one left.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, like, what's the difference?
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think maybe the difference is long-term active recovery, staying involved no matter what.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Showing up, doing the work, and I think ego has a lot to do with it too.
• 54:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think we get healthier and then we go, well, I don't need this shit, you know.
• 54:29
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I I think it's okay to be in recovery and like make choices that that change around your life.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: I have a girlfriend, I just had a child, or I have a wife, I have a new house.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_00: My recovery isn't gonna look like it did when it's 90, I was 90 days sober.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_00: But to complete to completely eradicate it for long term um is probably the the difference, the factor.
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_00: I've gone two years, like between year eight and eight and ten, my old my second sponsor uh challenged me to unchain myself from the floor of AA, and I was uh greatly scared.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um but I did it, and I'm glad I did it.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it I'm not gonna say I almost lost myself.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: I I kind of like found myself and lost myself.
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um did you find yourself in this weird neutral gray zone without it?
• 55:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_00: At first it was weird.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_00: I still went to meetings, I still talked to my sponsor a little bit, but like over time, not so much, you know.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: I was separated or divorced from well, it was probably good to step away just to see what it was like.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_00: It was, yeah.
• 55:53
  SPEAKER_00: I d I I think it helped me learn I'm gonna be okay no matter what.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna use or drink.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: But it also helped me learn the after going back, it's like it does benefit me and I do want to be there.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: I just didn't want to be there in that capacity because I had accepted so much responsibility that I felt like I owed the 12-step program so much, and but I had felt like I had paid it, but I was still there.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: So separating makes sense allowed me to be completely separated, and when I came back, I just kind of meandered around for a while until I walked in this room and it felt like home.
• 56:39
  SPEAKER_00: And then I knew I was in the right place, and that might not be my home forever.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it feels good there, you know.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm a part of a men's group, a home group where they don't care who I am.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they don't, they don't, they just don't, they don't care about my feelings, you know.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_00: They don't care who I am in the community, which is what I needed because I would go to home groups and my guys would be there.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone's equal there.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, everyone's equal.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_01: It's a good place.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: They just know I have 10 legs and short shorts.
• 57:10
  SPEAKER_00: They do not care that I what uh what I did for AA, they don't care what I do for recovery community as a whole.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: They just hold me accountable in general.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um well I I have two quick last questions.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let's say somebody listening right now is struggling with addiction.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: What would you say to them?
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would just say like move your feet and do what the next right the next hardest thing, no matter how you feel about it.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you're in a desperate situation, you get wrapped in your mind and fear, and you think, well, what's life gonna look like?
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_00: You're like trying to like you're so wrapped in today because you're you're drinking and using, but like thinking about how it's gonna be if you separate yourself is like this huge monumental thing.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like just go Yeah, you're getting rid of your best friend.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: Just go to treatment, sit there for you know, learn something and like just move your feet.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_00: Then afterwards, just do the next hardest thing.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it doesn't have to be profound, it doesn't have to be hard, like just move your feet, you know.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: I think you're around our 22nd episode right now.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I I want to say that's my favorite answer so far to that question.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I appreciate that, and I think if anybody's listening that was struggling, like do the next hardest thing, dude.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Because you found whatever your crutch is, and that is really debilitating you, and that is a hard thing to deal with.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why not do something hard?
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: You're already doing it.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_01: You're already doing it.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, so thank you for that.
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's awesome.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and when I did your podcast, Powerful Beyond Measure, you at the end of it, you asked me what my biggest fear was.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: So what's your biggest fear?
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: Oh gosh.
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't expect that.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: You don't ask everybody that, right?
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_01: That's the first time I ever asked it.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:17
  SPEAKER_01: The tough questions here.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want the real answer?
• 59:21
  SPEAKER_01: I do want the real answer.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna give you two because one is like an overall version.
• 59:28
  SPEAKER_00: My deepest fear, my greatest fear is that I will lose God again.
• 59:32
  SPEAKER_00: Because I have lost him in my recovery.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um And at the current moment, my biggest fear is that I guess my biggest fear is that she'll move on.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_01: I guess that's my current This person that's looming in the interview today.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm divorced, but you know, like it's still a fear.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_00: On paper, it would be if you remove that factor, it would be easy to remove out of my life.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the moving on part, it's like, ah, I don't want that, you know.
• 1:00:22
  SPEAKER_01: Speaking um on the the earlier part of your answer.
• 1:00:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you lost God in recovery?
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: What did that look like?
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: And how did you get back to it?
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great question.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was very uh maybe three years in, and I was super two years maybe, I was super religious for a lack of better words about AA.
• 1:00:44
  SPEAKER_00: So like every day I would sit in my car at 2 a.m.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_00: at UPS and I would meditate and I would read 86, 87, 88.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: When it said, divorce yourself from self-pity and selfish and dishonesty, I'd go, okay, please divorce me, you know, and then I would move to the next line and then I would do exactly what it said.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: What had happened was is I became so I hate to use the word religious, but I came so rigid that um and analytical that I can like rem I can feel the car door close like in my soul.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like I would close the door, and that's where it stopped.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't, he wasn't with me.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was empty, I was not okay.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_00: And uh something happened in my life that really like scared me and it brought attention that I was without God, and how I got him back was I started making really drastic moving my feet motions.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_00: One, I I got a I got a multiple sponsors.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did this thing called Steel on Steel Inventory where I took my inventory to multiple men, and um which caused like an integrity and vulnerability in my life, like being able to look everybody in the eye and like whatever I did, I'm I'm okay.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_01: I hear really good things about steel on steel.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then um I did this thing called the chair, and pretty much the concept is you can do it anywhere, but I did it in the car.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like I talked to God as if he was in the car with me.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I still do sometimes.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_01: Passenger seat?
• 1:02:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for not on my lap for a year, probably maybe long.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_01: If you were finding him again, I was wondering maybe he's in the backseat.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, you can sit back there, bro.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_01: He might, yeah.
• 1:02:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then I quit some of the things in my life, I quit allowing like things in my life.
• 1:02:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like I didn't listen to uh anything like music-wise, or read anything that was outside of spiritual literature or spiritual music.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_00: I got like I was listening to Dolph, and like it was I couldn't listen to Dolph no more, no more rap music no more.
• 1:02:52
  SPEAKER_00: So like there were some changes in my life that had to happen for me to well, clean behavior, clean mind.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:03:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I've heard a lot of people say that and it helps them for sure.
• 1:03:05
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I mean I was married, but I went, I was how do you call it celibate?
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I only uh for years, I only like sexual energy towards my ex my wife at the time.
• 1:03:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like no outside attention, no outside attention from anywhere, just purely me and my marriage.
• 1:03:27
  SPEAKER_00: So no outside relief, pretty much.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_00: Which made me that made me um, you know, like sometimes your wife will like reject you or like she don't want to, you know, whatever, you know, it would make me more romantic.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, okay, you said you said no, okay.
• 1:03:45
  SPEAKER_00: I hear what you're saying, but let me get on my knees real quick and beg, like as a joke, or like I'll come back in an hour, see how you feel then.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like not necessarily romantic, but more like I don't have another option.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think as men, like we get rejected sometimes and we'll be like, oh, I'll just I got other options, you know?
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't it made me like really focused.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it almost seems to you like you were liking the chase.
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you like the chase more, yeah.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_00: Instead of um I don't know.
• 1:04:18
  SPEAKER_00: Naturally, men get rejected in that area probably more than women do.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and I think sometimes it would help hurt our self-esteem, so we don't want to do that, so we you know it made me definitely more chaseful, romantic.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, she thought I was crazy.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who are you trying to prove this to?
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, dude, I I wish you the best of luck with with everything that you have going on in your life.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's good to meet Phoenix.
• 1:04:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was great, it was great to have you on today.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for everything you shared.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: Really good recovery stuff, really good life stuff.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for everything you do in the men in your community.
• 1:04:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so all the listeners out there, please check out Threshold Recovery.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_01: Please check out your podcast, powerful beyond measure.
• 1:05:03
  SPEAKER_01: You're on like episode 30 now.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and hit up Matt Culp, the Matt Culp on Instagram and and probably TikTok because you've talked about it before.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_01: And uh please check out our podcast, more episodes, like and subscribe.
• 1:05:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everything helps because you're doing a podcast, I'm doing a podcast.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_01: It all helps other people, hopefully.
• 1:05:27
  SPEAKER_01: So if we can what we do now helps one person, helps five people.
• 1:05:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's the object here that we're going for.
• 1:05:35
  SPEAKER_01: And so thank you so much for today.
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I appreciate you.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate you.
• 1:05:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 1:05:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, love you, brother.