Latest / Jennifer Rothschild Show / #8: How To Do Relationships Like Jesus with Wayne Francis

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#8: How To Do Relationships Like Jesus with Wayne Francis · Jennifer Rothschild Show

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It's the vulnerability that I think allows us to resonate with his work.
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So there is a theological framework of saying, I am who I am in Christ,
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and that I live to please him.
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And I'm not going to just kind of divulge every part of me to people that aren't
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worthy of getting that level of exposure.
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There is some TMI at certain places, but living in the authentic place that my
0:24
validation doesn't come from you and external resources, it comes from
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The Holy Spirit's activity in my life and His endorsement and seal on my life.
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Hey friends, welcome to The Jennifer Rothschild Show.
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Do you know why you're here?
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Because this is where thoughtful people come to grow, and you're
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a thoughtful person.
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And so I'm glad you're here because, ooh, we are going to grow today.
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So let me start with a question.
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Don't you want meaningful relationships that build you up?
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And don't burn you out? Mm-hmm.
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Me too.
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Well, today, pastor and speaker Wayne Francis draws
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from scripture, lived experience, and years of ministry in the heart of
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New York City to show that friendship, it's not just a social add-on
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or an emotional luxury.
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It's part of God's blueprint for your flourishing.
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Ooh, this guy, he is so delightful and he's deep.
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So settle in and let's grow.
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Well, hey friends, I'm so glad you're here.
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You picked a good day to pop in on the Jennifer Rothschild Show.
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And by the way, can I just say, as we get going here, uh, if you have
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not yet left a review, please do.
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I really want to hear your heart and know what you're thinking, how this is
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serving you and ministering to you. So please leave a review, an honest one.
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Well, if you want to be super honest and it's not positive, just email me, please.
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But if you got something fairly decent to say, say it in public.
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Okay.
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On whatever platform you listen to, please leave me a review.
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But I truly mean this.
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I want this to serve you well.
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Also share the podcast.
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Please share it, share it on your socials, share it with your people.
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Because I do this for you and I want it to multiply the message, not
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just of what God has given me, but y'all, there are so many amazing
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Brothers and sisters who God is using that I get to have really
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thoughtful conversations with.
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And I want them to be shared because these are God's people and we're his family.
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So let's encourage each other.
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I happen to be— speaking of the family of God— I happen to be in Michigan
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right now on the road.
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Well, or on a ferry, I should say.
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Mackinac Island in Michigan.
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It's a women's retreat that I'm doing.
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And next week when I get home, please Please, please pray for me if the
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Lord leads you and reminds you, and I pray he will remind you.
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I am filming my next Bible study, the teaching portions.
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The Bible study is on Jesus, literally.
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No, like, that's the title.
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Like, everything I write eventually involves Jesus, of course,
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but this Bible study is literally called Jesus, and the subtitle is Walking with
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Him Through the Library of Scripture.
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So I finished the manuscript, and now because it's a video-enhanced
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Bible study, I will be filming all 7 teaching sessions live
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in Springfield, Missouri.
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So I know this is last minute for you, but if you're nearby, come on.
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It will be an encouragement.
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You'd be in the live audience.
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You'll show up on film, you know, so wear your lipstick,
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but it'd be so fun to have you there.
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It's going to be really special, but I, I really want to represent him well.
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I mean, my goodness, he saved our lives. I want to represent him well.
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So please pray that he gives me clarity of mind
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and the perfect words to teach so that he is represented well.
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All right.
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I'll tell you somebody who represents him well.
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And that is my guest today.
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I had never met him before, and y'all, what a fun guy!
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Like I just really when you hear this, you'll hear clearly.
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I resonated with him.
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I grew up in Miami, and like he is so New York,
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and I had a lot of New York friends in Miami, and so like I
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resonated immediately.
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I went right back to my roots.
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But Wayne Francis, he is the lead pastor for
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Life Church New York, which is located in Westchester County.
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And besides pastoring and being like an amazing speaker and teacher,
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he's also the. chaplain for the Brooklyn Nets.
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Very cool, right?
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He's married to Claudine, and I love this, he calls her classy,
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and he has 2 beautiful daughters.
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So you're gonna really love this conversation.
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So settle in and get ready to enjoy what Wayne Francis has to say.
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All right, Wayne, I'm super glad we're gonna be talking
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today about your book, but before we get there, I just read
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in your bio something about you that I have got to ask.
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It says you take pleasure in turning any floor into a dance floor.
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Okay, I gotta know more. Do you like to dance?
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What's up? I love dancing.
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I think dancing is a great way for us to release whatever sorrows or
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complicated thoughts that we have.
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Nobody thinks a whole lot about the issues of their life when they're dancing.
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You're just having a good time. Yeah, I agree.
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I'm, I'm a terrible dancer and I love to dance.
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Oh my gosh, I love it. I love it.
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So you dance with your wife or do you just do your own little boogie
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on the kitchen floor? What do you do?
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Oh, I do. I dance with my wife.
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I dance with my kids.
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I dance to anybody that's around.
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I'll, I'll drop it like it's hot, pick it back up like it's lukewarm.
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I'm 51 years old, so it's dropping it like it's hot is a little bit more
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lukewarm, but I get it popping.
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I love it.
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Spoken like a true New Yorker there. I love that.
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Okay, you're very— this— that's, that's so fun.
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That says a lot about your personality, and I love it.
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Joy, joy, joy. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
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All right, so we're going to talk about something that sometimes
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is a more tender subject because we're talking about friendship,
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and your book is called Make Friends with Anyone.
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Okay, now before we even talk about friendship
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and loneliness and all the things, your book is called Make Friends with Anyone.
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I'm curious, why didn't you call your book, Make Friends with Everyone?
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You know, that's fascinating because when I was going back and forth with our
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editor, that was actually the original title.
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But we felt like that was overwhelming because sometimes relationally, it's
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very hard to make friends with everyone.
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But it's more accessible for a person to say that I can make a friend with anyone.
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That's more strategic and focused because it might not always be healthy to make
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friends with everyone around you, but you should have the capacity
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to make friends with anyone. Okay, I like that.
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I like that.
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And I like that it reduces the overwhelm, but it becomes this beautiful invitation.
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And we need it because we don't have to talk about stats right
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now to know that loneliness is an epidemic.
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I mean, people are lonely. Mm-hmm.
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And so I'm curious, when you think of loneliness,
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do you think it's more about just a lack of people, or do you think it's A lack
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of meaningful people in people's lives?
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What, what do you think loneliness is? What's the root of it?
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I actually think it's the third option, which is the lack of connection to
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meaningful people, because I think that sometimes we're
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surrounded by meaningful people, whether that's our family members, our
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spouses, people that we go to work with.
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But I think we lack the ability to connect with vulnerability and safety.
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And so we are more digitally connected than we've ever been,
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but more relationally disconnected than we've ever been.
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And so we're We're in full rooms, we just don't have a full soul.
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We're obese on connections, but we're anemic on depth.
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So I think that's where we're at.
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Okay, so you mentioned 2 words, vulnerability and safety.
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Is it because we're nervous about being vulnerable, or we don't feel safe,
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or both, or either?
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I think it's actually both, right?
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There's so much at risk right now in terms of being, you know,
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there's this sort of challenge to being your true authentic self in some ways,
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or divulging the parts of us that aren't as pretty And so vulnerability usually
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leaves people with what I call a vulnerability hangover.
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You're like, oh dude, should I have said that to them?
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I don't know what they're going to do with that information.
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Because so many of us have had the safest parts of us weaponized
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to either manipulate us or to control.
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And so it is a little bit scary sometimes to dive into a relationship with
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a person based on vulnerability.
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Yeah, 100% agree.
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And there's this weird tension between Ah, we can still be honest with
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people without being so thorough.
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Right, right, right.
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That we compromise privacy or things like that.
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I mean, and there's a difference too between privacy and secrecy.
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I mean, it's just this weird nuanced thing.
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So no matter— no wonder a lot of people just are like, okay,
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it's easier just to, you know, send somebody a text or relate
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online where I can control.
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Um, how much do you think control, a sense of control, has to do with,
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um, this loneliness epidemic?
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I think, um, it plays a big role because we're all optical illusionists that want
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to convey the fact that we're okay and that we're not hurt.
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We're Teflon, we're this, we're that.
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And yet that's the barrier to— and this is why we exhale when we meet
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that person that does just drop it like it's hot in some,
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you know, random restaurant or whatever, because they seem so free.
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We all want to be free.
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We all want to be the best version of ourselves that aren't grabbing the fig
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leaves like our first parents did after they You know, committed
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the first sin, right?
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We want to go back to the proverbial Eden where we can be
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what I would say is emotionally nude with people, where there is no shame,
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where we're at a place where we can say, hey, this is how I'm feeling.
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This might not be accurate or true, but we're whiteboarding
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in a way where it's safe in front of the people that we love and that are near us.
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Okay, that's good. That's interesting.
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And so as I hear you describe that, and we're going to get a little more into
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the nitty-gritty of literally doing friendship, but I'm curious about -- just
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theoretically, is it our safety in God, our security and identity in him,
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that kind of sets us up for success in this area?
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What is it theoretically on the more global scheme that allows us to
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take that vulnerable next step?
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I actually think that's a really great question, Jennifer.
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I think that is a theological framework that we have to kind of wrestle with.
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Because if we look at the writings of the Apostle Paul, who I think is one of the
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most vulnerable leaders of all time, particularly in the New Testament,
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listening, he's kind of like, yeah, I used to be this real bad guy.
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I persecuted the church.
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He was so aware and self-aware of allowing himself to be vulnerable.
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Think about how he wrestles publicly with people throughout millennia to say, hey,
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the good that I would do, I, I don't do it because evil presents itself.
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Oh, I'm such a wretched man, right?
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That is vulnerable.
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I mean, you are the Apostle Paul, dude, and you're talking about you
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struggle with sin like me.
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But it frees all of us to enter into this space when he says things like,
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man, I prayed and 3 times I deny it.
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It's the vulnerability that I think allows us to resonate with his work.
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So there is a theological framework of saying, I am who I am in Christ,
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and that I live to please him.
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And I'm not going to just kind of divulge every part of me to people that aren't
11:49
worthy of getting that level of exposure.
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There is some TMI at certain places. Sure.
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But living in the authentic place that my validation doesn't come from you and
12:00
external resources, it comes from the Holy Spirit's activity in my life
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and his endorsement and seal on my life.
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I love that— his endorsement and seal on my life.
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I'm so glad.
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I've never thought of— well, first of all, I've never thought of the blustery
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Apostle Paul as vulnerable.
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But you're absolutely right. He is.
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And I love to see even just talking about him shows us, Wayne,
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that strength and vulnerability.
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But yeah, when we're positioned, endorsed, sealed, signed, it's done.
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Nothing. We risk nothing.
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Which is so interesting.
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Because if you compare his personality, the Apostle Paul, to let's say to Peter.
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Peter, who seemed to be pretty vulnerable in the New Testament,
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like in terms of saying what was on his mind, like what was on his
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mind was out his mouth.
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In his writings, he doesn't really get vulnerable about what he did.
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You never hear him say in the epistles like, hey, I, Peter, the one who denied
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Christ 3 times, like he doesn't do that.
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And yet you look at Paul and Paul's just letting his stuff out.
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And I think that there's the beauty of different personalities.
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Yeah, it is. It is the different personalities.
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And it's also such a beautiful paradigm to think, okay, when we're safe in God,
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we can risk with others.
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And we're not going to step into the ocean until we realize that we can risk.
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And so, okay, that was an obvious transition since,
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you know, your book, but that's what I want us to do.
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I want to go into the ocean. Okay.
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Because you've got this cool framework.
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I think there's 5. Yes.
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Yeah.
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Show us the different types of relationships based on this paradigm
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you created, this framework. Yeah.
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This is a rubric that I think is so useful for us to figure out how to
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stratify our friendships.
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Bit of a nod to the way that Jesus even stratified his friendships.
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But the first level in this, uh, rubric is we have sunbathing relationships.
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That's the surface-level relationships where you talk to the other mom that's at
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the bus stop with you as you're picking up your kids.
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It's the barista at your local coffee shop.
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You don't get deep with them, but there's sunbather relationships,
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and it's great to just chat and talk about things that are casual.
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The only problem is if you stay on the surface too long, you get sunburned.
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So the second relationship level that I talk about in the book is surfers.
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Surfers are the people that seem to come into your life on the waves
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of life, the rhythms of life.
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They recede with the ebb and flow.
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So these are the friends that celebrate you when the graduations happen and the
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weddings, but you might not talk to them for about 3 or 4 months.
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But most people that are surfers would say this about this type of personality:
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we just pick up where we left off. Yeah.
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Those are the type of friends that they just roll in and they roll out.
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The next level is a snorkeler.
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A snorkeler is a person that you can get a little bit under the surface with.
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You might tell them about a couple of things that are bothering you.
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You might get a little bit more vulnerable, but certainly
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you're still protected.
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You're just seeing some parts of their world, and they're seeing a part of your
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world that's a lot more different that you couldn't see from the sunbathing level,
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and you couldn't see from the surfer level.
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But the relationships that mostly endear many of us,
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or at least that is aspirational for us, is the Uh, snorkeling level.
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Snorkelers are the people that you go deep with, man.
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You have apparatus, you're getting down and dirty.
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They're knowing about your problems, your heartaches,
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that your husband is getting on your nerves and so are your kids, that you're—
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you've been betrayed and backstabbed.
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They know some things about your childhood traumas and all that.
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And the interesting thing about scuba divers is that if you both pull out the
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relationship too fast, you'll get the bends.
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So you stay committed.
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The last level of relationships that I think is fascinating
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is the submarine level.
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This is the deepest level of relationship.
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This is the people that you have mutual destruction with because you are willing
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to go into the depths and you are totally vulnerable, totally in a place where you
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share the most exclusive type of friendship possible.
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The beautiful thing about a submarine relationship though is that it's the only
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one where you can enjoy every level because submarines can float toward the
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top and it'll be okay, and sometimes you can get a little bit lower and go deep.
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It's one of those relationships that is the safest, but
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you got to be careful because not everybody can be at that level of depth,
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and you can't confuse— you can't give submarine access to people
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that are sunbathers.
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It's a— there's a strategic way of connecting with people.
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Wow. Okay, that is so good.
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And I know just like I was listening, others were analyzing the people in our
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lives and who we are in their lives.
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And so that's really good framework.
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Okay, so what have you found though, especially understanding kind of what you
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just shared with us, what have you found that What's to be the
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most like challenging part of making these intentional
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or meaningful relationships, maybe toward the snorkeling, getting down
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to the diving to the submarine level?
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What is it? Yeah, it's hardest.
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I think giving people trust to go there and the idea of,
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you have to be okay with not always receiving the reciprocity
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that you might intend.
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You have to take a risk to get to those levels of relationship.
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And I actually have in the book, a friendship audit where you can Yeah.
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And you can actually take a quick test, sort of similar to
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the Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or anything, to find out what type of natural
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propensity you have in relationships, which will help you
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on how you relate to other people.
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But basically, it takes trust.
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You got to trust the apparatus.
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And too many of us, we keep floaties on for safety
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to just kind of wade around them.
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But if you see an adult with floaties on in a pool, there's something
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wrong with that, right?
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Adults should learn how to take the risk to swim.
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And I think that's the most important thing.
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takes risk, and you will get hurt, and you do have to reorder friendships.
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There is no sort of like nirvana toward relationships.
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You're gonna get hurt.
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Jesus got hurt.
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Yeah, I didn't even think about that, but you're right.
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He was betrayed.
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And whoo, okay, so interesting, Pastor.
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And I, I love this because I'm glad you've written it into the book because this is
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the kind of thing we don't just glean in a 30-minute conversation on a podcast.
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I'm glad we can go deeper in the book.
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But one thing that strikes me just as a pragmatic point,
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someone listening right now, and she's into friendships, of course,
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but I'm curious, how would you recommend that she honors
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her marriage, but still cultivates meaningful
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friendships outside of her marriage?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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Because I think that there is something that happens.
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And this sometimes is not the most popular thing.
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Because I hear spouses say, well, this person is my best friend,
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or my husband's my best friend, or my wife is my best friend.
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And I actually think that that's possible and beautiful in its own respect.
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But I also think that it's limiting.
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I actually think that couples should have somebody of the same gender that is their
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close friend, because it's a different type of relationship.
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And God has made it so that we need relationships.
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They're oxygen. They're not optional.
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And I think sometimes we can hide the parts of ourselves in this kind of like,
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oh, my spouse is my best friend thing, when we actually need to
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know certain things about a person through somebody else.
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God has made it a 90-degree angle.
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There are things— my wife has been in perimenopause— that I can
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empathize with, but she gonna need some girlfriends, right?
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You can't help her with that.
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I can't help you with that, right?
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And there's certain things that the male soul needs affirmation through that
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my wife may not be able to supply.
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That doesn't mean that it's a lesser relationship.
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It just means that God has made us to experience the best and the worst out of
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each other, and we cannot experience the best of God without the best
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and worst of each other. And that can't be in a marriage context.
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We have to be discipled by people that are different than us.
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Amen.
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Listen, that is such a good word, and I hope my girlfriends
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out there have heard that.
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You know, my— I love my husband.
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He is a stud, but he's not my BFF.
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I mean, I've got girl BFFs, and he would not want that job.
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It's a lot. It's a lot, right?
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I know sometimes it's unpopular, but sometimes it's a,
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it's a safety measure because people are afraid to be vulnerable with somebody that
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they're not covenanted with financially, emotionally, children,
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and so on and so forth. It's because it gets scary.
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Yeah, right.
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Well, and I know this, Wayne, I'm a better wife because of my girlfriends.
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Yes, I learned from how they relate to their husbands, and I'm not gonna,
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you know, gain that from my husband being my one and only BFF for
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the rest of my life. Right, right.
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Um, yeah, iron sharpens iron.
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So I'm curious about you personally, like, what is the most unusual way
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that you've ever made a friend?
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Oh, wow.
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Well, you know, I've done so many different things.
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Like, I've slid into the DMs of a pastor that I wanted to learn from and just
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texted and said, hey dude, can I have lunch with you?
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Nice.
20:56
Um, because I'm a new church planter and you look like you're
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doing something great.
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I'm the guy that you don't want to sit next to on an airplane because
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I am going to talk to you.
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Put your earbuds in because I'm gonna make a way to have a friendship with you.
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But usually I am so into making friendships that
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I am constantly talking to people.
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I'm curious about humans, about what they're wearing.
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I live in New York City, obviously, and it's like there's fashion
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and there's art and so on.
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So I don't know if there's anything more unique.
21:26
Oh, I made a friend after I broke my arm.
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That's a pretty unique way to make a friend.
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And I just saw him on the street.
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Hey, yes, I broke my arm cycling last year.
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Oh.
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And it was a great opportunity to make a friend with the EMS team.
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He literally came to my church about 2 days ago.
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It was Sunday and came to say hello and to check on my arm.
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I love that.
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I love that.
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So there's, there's plenty of avenues, but I'm curious what you would say.
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In fact, we've only got a couple more questions here, Wayne,
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but I'm curious what you would say.
21:59
So clearly, I mean, I would assume you're either a learned extrovert or you're a
22:02
natural extrovert, but you talk to people. Okay.
22:05
Yes. Some people aren't quite that wired.
22:08
To the one who struggles to begin relationships,
22:12
like, and she may feel isolated.
22:15
What, what can you tell her?
22:17
What would be a good first step for her?
22:19
The first step is to— you're gonna have to be okay with not
22:23
feeling reciprocity or received, right?
22:26
Like, somehow you have to dull the piece of us
22:29
that is like, I don't want to be rejected.
22:31
And you have to do it in your head first before you actually
22:34
engage in a relationship.
22:35
Then the second thing is, I think introverts need to
22:37
not worry about quantity.
22:40
I think they need to just focus on one and let the one multiply in
22:43
the way that it needs to.
22:44
I think we don't need many friends in terms of like, uh,
22:48
you know, 15 or 10 friends.
22:50
We need to take the courage to develop one, one that we can be vulnerable with.
22:54
Because what happens is when we get into those relationships and we let those walls
22:57
down and we get connected, it makes it easier for the next one.
23:01
We become less resistant, we become less calculated.
23:04
Introverts tend to be a little bit more calculated, like,
23:06
I just don't want to do that. Uh, That's odd.
23:08
That's weird.
23:08
I think you just focus on uniting with the personality type that you
23:13
feel most comfortable with, which probably isn't the opposite of you.
23:16
It's probably somebody that's more like you.
23:19
That's, that's a good word.
23:20
And I happen to be an introvert, which because of what I do,
23:23
people are usually surprised by that.
23:25
I've just, I love people and I'm curious.
23:27
So it translates as extroversion.
23:29
But I will say, I've had seasons in my life, Wayne, where
23:33
I've thought, okay, I literally have to change my mindset.
23:36
set.
23:37
People are gonna like you.
23:38
Act like they're gonna like you.
23:40
Just go in with confidence and assume that they're gonna like you,
23:44
because introverts overanalyze, you know? Yeah.
23:47
So that's—We overcalculate.
23:49
We do.
23:49
It's such an interesting, um, observation you made.
23:52
And I remember even as a little girl or teenager, I was starting to date
23:56
and I was such a nervous wreck.
23:57
And my dad was like, okay— he sat down with me, precious dad.
24:00
He sits down with me, he says, okay, here's 3 questions
24:03
that you can ask anytime you have any kind of new relationship, and,
24:07
and it just gets the ball rolling.
24:09
Yeah.
24:09
Um, and honestly, I think sometimes we need to be that pragmatic, you know?
24:14
Yes, yes.
24:14
Because we're reducing that sense of self-awareness when we do, I think.
24:19
I agree.
24:19
And Jennifer, I like to tell people, and especially for introverts,
24:22
your mindset is determined by where you let your mind sit.
24:26
And if your mind is always sitting in, I'm not going to be received,
24:30
I'm going to be rejected, I'm going to have this,
24:31
then that's probably the way your relationships are going to But when you
24:34
have a right mindset, you set your mind in the right places and
24:37
it becomes easier to arrive and show up to the world in a way that's authentic.
24:41
Word. Okay, good stuff.
24:43
Wow.
24:44
Okay, this is— you are delightful and I just, I'm so grateful for your energy.
24:48
If I were near you, I would want you to dance with me so I'd be a better dancer.
24:53
150%!
24:55
Okay, you'd be dragging this blind woman around your dance floor.
24:58
You've not seen anything. Yet.
25:00
Here's our last question.
25:01
All right, Wayne, so this podcast is where thoughtful people come to grow.
25:08
So just leave us with something, anything you want to share with
25:11
us that has helped you grow.
25:14
I think the things that, or the people that have helped me grow in the
25:19
most recent cycle of my life have been the most challenging people,
25:23
the people that were confrontational.
25:25
I don't like confrontation.
25:27
I try to to run away from confrontation a lot of times.
25:30
I want everybody to like me.
25:32
I want everybody to love me.
25:33
And usually a conflict delayed is a conflict escalated.
25:37
And I have had more growth with people and friends that have really called me to the
25:42
mat on different things that didn't affect our relationship.
25:46
Like, it wasn't me and them beefing about anything.
25:48
It was like, hey, your life looks like it's moving really fast.
25:51
And, um, it looks like you're all over the place, and it feels like you're,
25:54
you're not slowing down.
25:55
In fact, I'll tell you how I grew recently.
25:58
A friend of mine— I got my tattoo the other day.
26:00
51 years old. Exactly.
26:02
And it was an homage to my grandmother and my mother.
26:05
My mother recently passed away about a year ago, and my friend was challenging me
26:10
and saying that my personality is like a hummingbird, that I move
26:14
around and all this stuff.
26:15
And you, you know, you have this frenetic pace, which is good because you pollinate
26:18
different areas, but you're also busy in a way that you don't rest.
26:22
And, um, and the challenge was a gentle rebuke That has allowed me to grow and to
26:28
become more settled in a new
26:30
way of looking at myself.
26:40
So, uh, you heard Wayne say he got his first tattoo.
26:44
When we got off mic, he said, oh, it was a little awkward.
26:47
I, I wasn't sure if I should have said that to your audience.
26:49
And then I told him, Wayne, I got my first tattoo also.
26:53
Many of you know that I got it last year.
26:54
When I turned 62, I got my first tattoo.
26:58
And he said, oh, that makes me feel so much better.
27:00
Well, listen, I got 3 words on my arm that say, it is well, because
27:06
that's the way I've lived my life.
27:08
That's what Jesus has done for me.
27:10
And that's how I want to end my final days with those words on my lips and on my arm.
27:15
It is well.
27:18
Oh, it is well.
27:19
Okay.
27:20
Here's a seed for thought to help you grow that I thought Wayne dropped
27:23
that I thought was so helpful.
27:25
When I asked him what helped him grow, He said people have helped him grow.
27:30
Isn't that interesting?
27:31
People, but not just anybody.
27:33
It's the ones who confront and challenge.
27:36
So be wise.
27:38
I thought this was really smart what he said.
27:39
Don't run from confrontation because conflict delayed
27:45
becomes conflict escalated.
27:49
Now I know it's hard.
27:50
I hate conflict, but I much more dislike
27:53
ambiguous relationships where you don't know where you stand and where We have to
27:56
stand on the eggshells to have any kind of conversation.
28:00
So within these safe relationships that we have, he said rebuke has
28:06
actually helped him grow. Y'all, that's huge.
28:08
That's huge.
28:09
I think there's a lot here you're going to want to review.
28:11
So check out the show notes, of course, so you can read the transcript.
28:14
His book will be there.
28:15
Anything else that can help you grow is going to be right there on the show notes.
28:18
So thank you for sharing the podcast.
28:20
Thank you for leaving a review.
28:22
Thank you for praying for the Jesus Bible Study.
28:25
Man, do I love you and need you and appreciate you.
28:27
You guys are the absolute best.
28:30
So thanks for being a part of the podcast.
28:33
Keep growing, and I will see you next week.