Latest / Storied Account with Jen Jumba / Ellery Adams: Invasive Species

Transcript

Ellery Adams: Invasive Species · Storied Account with Jen Jumba

• Jennifer Jumba: This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba. In conversations with writers, something magical happens. And as readers, we begin to see them as human beings and not just the name on the spine of a book. My hope is through these conversations, you learn about their craft and them as a person, you'll become like me, fiercely loyal, want to read their current book, entire backlist, any future book or any book they blurb. And when you see their name, you'll want to support them, not only as incredible storytellers, but also the thoughtful individuals you have come to know. Ellery Adams is my guest today and she's the New York Times and USA Today bestselling writer of more than 40 mystery novels, which star female characters who are nuanced and complex, which is one of the reasons why readers adore her She's written multiple series, including The Secret, Book and Scone Society, had me at all three, The Book Retreat and Books by the Bay. For much of her career, Ellery has explored how the power of women's relationships can change a community for the better. And at that same time, societal pressures to be perfect can twist a woman's spirit into something unlovely. There are echoes of both in Ellery's latest book, Invasive Species, which just published last week. Invasive species is challenging for me to quote unquote define. And thankfully somebody has found the words to describe it. as a genre defying blend of mythology, fantasy, and folklore horror with a nostalgic coming of age story. And this new book continues to feature women who are fascinating and drive the story. One person has said, think Circe meets stranger things. And so excited to talk to Ellery today about her approach to writing such complicated characters, how she's able to capture that duality that always exists and how our actions impact not only our life, but the lives of others. I'm so excited to have you here today. little bit. Can we talk a little bit about this new book, Invasive Species? Give us a a brief overview of this ⁓ fantastic story. Ellery Adams: I am thrilled to be here. I'm chomping at the bit to talk about invasive species. So I, so with you in the, it's actually just so hard to define it when people are like, give me your elevator pitch. I'm like, duh. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: you Well, yes, we need the elevator that goes to the top of the Empire State Building twice. Ellery Adams: Right, exactly. I'm like, how many floors you got? Because this is gonna take a minute. And I think whenever you have a genre blend or a mashup, you know, you're trying to put in all the sections so you're like, look, this is gonna be this amazing cookie dough. And as soon as you cook it, it's gonna be this great cookie, but let me just get everything into the dough. So I'll try to this as succinctly as possible, but it's... Jennifer Jumba: Great. Mm-hmm. Right. Ellery Adams: It's kind of a era suburban drama. So I've heard a lot of references to Desperate Housewives, and I agree with that, that in 1982. And then it's on three women ⁓ who kind of slowly unraveling in the face of all of their societal pressures, because this is the time period where the slogans ⁓ and mottos for women were, you can have it all. But to have it doing it all. So these women, Natalie, Elaine, and Beth, they kind of direct their frustration and disappointment over marital issues, monetary issues, parenting issues on this mysterious neighbor who just called Mrs. Smith. And she's mysterious because no one has ever seen her. She lives in this hulking, ⁓ shark brave Victorian overlooking the harbor. And she doesn't interact with any of the neighbors. So it's really easy to talk about a woman you don't see and you don't interact with. So she starts off right away as kind of this negative And as story progresses and we get the point of view of the different women, we see what is happening in their lives. And then we see what is going on with Mrs. Smith. We get her point of view as well. And then we have some unlikely heroes. And this is where the coming of age part comes in with the 12-year-old Jill, who's Natalie's daughter, and her Icelandic housekeeper, whose name is Una. And they really find all the answers to their problems like the rest of us do at the library. Jennifer Jumba: It was a nice nod to the library and thinking that it's set in 1982, there is that nostalgic feel for many of us of a particular age to remember what it was like. there's no internet, there's no cell phones, there's no texting, there's no social media that you were truly in that present moment and how angst ridden that can sometimes be without that escape or distraction. So I'm struck by the fact that these women find something in common to kind of like something that they know nothing about, right? But it kind of comes to a head because Elaine wants to throw this fabulous bar mitzvah for her son, Charles, who's kind of the outcast in his class. And like, we're talking epic. We're talking fireworks, ⁓ all kinds things, and they need her permission. And so sets this story, in motion. is trying to understand her and trying to get to know her and will she make an appearance and how she does that. Ellery Adams: So all this time of just not caring about her existence, then now they need something from her. And so it's become relevant because of their own needs and desires. And Natalie also wants Mrs. Smith to clean up her property because she thinks that her messy property is going to drive down property values. And she's trying to sell a house that borders on Mrs. Smith's property. So. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Ellery Adams: Now, Natalie wants something from her. Elaine wants something from her. She needs to get permission to set off fireworks night because Mrs. Smith's property borders the Yacht Club where the party is going to be. And these who have never paid attention Mrs. Smith are going to get somewhat aggressive with her. And that turns out to be quite a mistake. Jennifer Jumba: there's sometimes we say there's power in numbers, the more you have united against something, but what a slope it creates. And what an awkward to meet a neighbor is somebody who you have basically and now you need something from. Like that's a humbling, could be perceived as a humbling ass. Like, ⁓ yeah, we don't really like you. We talk about you all the time, but ⁓ by the way, we need your help. ⁓ Ellery Adams: Right. Right. And speaking of people of a certain age, for those of you who remember when you would go to trick or treat in 80s or 70s and someone's lights were out, that was a clear indication that we don't have candy for you and we don't want you to come to our house, ⁓ go away. that was something at the time very much respected, unless we had some paper, then they might get punished. ⁓ I Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. Ellery Adams: those kids because I was a total rule follower and I was terrified of doing something to an adult. in a neighborhood teaming with kids and families, if you were the only house on the block with the light out on Halloween, that kind of automatically puts you in villain territory. Jennifer Jumba: without a doubt and you become the house that people dare to go up to the porch and like knock on the door and hell, right? already creating tension. This is somebody who clearly does not want to be part of a group and growing up in the eighties, it was all about and people were always outside, people always were, cooking out, you you kind of knew everybody kind of looked out for each other's kids, so to speak. Like I can remember coming home and Like my parents asking me something like, how did you know so and so saw you do blah, blah. Ellery Adams: worked against us too because parents would tell on us for things we did at other people's houses. Like there was no sanctuary in basement. As you were in someone's basement, for me, if I had sugary snacks at someone's house and my mom found out, I'd get in trouble. my friend, don't your mom see me having Captain Crunch with crunch berries, because my mom will be mad. We're only allowed to have. and and mulch aka grape nuts. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ Grape Nuts, think you describe in this story as, there's humor throughout this story. So you talk about Grape Nuts being disgusting. It was like eating twigs and acorn caps. No kidding. No, I mean, it's... ⁓ Ellery Adams: Yeah, I have never had a bowl of grape nuts since. Jennifer Jumba: No, I think I tried it once and then I was like, okay, no, thank you. You that was kind of the role growing up. You at least try it. that's a hard no and also no sugary cereal. So I can remember going to college and like, ⁓ my gosh, there was every sugar coated cereal you could ever want and thinking like, this is the greatest thing ever. ⁓ that happened. Exactly. there is humor woven throughout. There's also the dark folklore, sorry. Ellery Adams: You're I'm in heaven. Jennifer Jumba: horror, throughout because people trying to figure out, know, who Mrs. Smith is. mean, the fact that she just goes by Mrs. Smith, there's already that distance because you've put like, the Mrs. Mr. Ms. in front of a last name, not like you and I, you know, if I were to call you, know, Ms. Adams, you know, throughout the rest of the interview, it'd be kind of a little bit awkward. So I'm thinking about that. And then I'm thinking about Ellery Adams: Right. Jennifer Jumba: You know, there's themes in here of, what people are willing to do for money. Natalie is, just started, raising kids, decides to go back to work, wants to be a real estate agent. ⁓ And of course, being the rookie, gets like the worst possible house because it's adjacent to Mrs. Smith's property there's just, it's overgrown ⁓ and unsightly. So she has this idea curb appeal. I'm going to go and I'm going to make it look nice and hopefully people can see past that. But what she does, ⁓ trying to, guess, befriend Mrs. Smith to get her to cut the vines back that encroaching on other people's property, her kids, ⁓ going to help. ⁓ Ellery Adams: I did all very autobiographical actually. So we had Smith on the end of our road who lived in a house very similar to this and a very mysterious overgrown garden. And hired us to come clear it out. And it was my older brother and I, and we would work there. it was strangely full ⁓ of ⁓ So we had Mrs. Smith on the end of road who lived in a house very similar to this a very mysterious overgrown garden. And she hired us to come and clear out. And it was older brother and I, and we would work there. And it was strangely full ⁓ of Jennifer Jumba: Cool. Ellery Adams: thorn bushes and poison ivy and insects. mean, we lived two houses away, but it was like a whole different flora and fauna over there. she put it up well in her backyard, which was super creepy. And of course, you know, we were teens and preteen. that just for especially got my imagination just going wild. And when pulled out, thorn bushes and poison ivy and insects. mean, we lived two houses away, but it was like a whole different flora and fauna over there. she put it up well in her backyard, which was super creepy. And of course, you know, we were teens and preteen. that just for especially got my imagination just going wild. And when pulled out, a bunch of these weeds and overgrown plants. We saw that a long time ago there had actually been an organized garden in there. There were beds and there were little that we were finding kind of shrouded dead plant material and it was very mysterious. a bunch of these weeds and overgrown plants. We saw that a long time ago there had actually been an organized garden in there. There were beds and there were little that we were finding kind of shrouded dead plant material and it was very mysterious. Now I don't ever remember ⁓ seeing woman. My older brother said he saw her once. So my of having this person who may or may not be an agoraphobic or extremely shy in this book was based on the fact that I grew up next to somebody I don't ever remember seeing. So I asked my parents about it they said, yes, she was extremely shy. She also had a lot of money, but you wouldn't necessarily know it because she lived very quietly and modestly and she didn't have kids. And as we all know, there are time periods in life and unfortunately still now where women are judged for not having kids as being strange. And if you don't have kids and you're strange and you've got this overgrown garden and you turn out your porch light, I mean, you're in trouble in the neighborhood. You are in so much trouble. But my mom, she, there were three of us and she at one point was like, all right, guys are good. You're on the Jennifer Jumba: You're already sending a clear message. Ellery Adams: the way to being decent human beings. And I got to get out of house. I got to get out of here. I want to do something else. so she decided she had a science background, but she went through a ⁓ incident before left her last job. And it was a long time. And women who had spent 10 years, 15 years raising kids, and then they went to try to get another job, it was, well, what's your experience? What's your value? And they were basically The insinuation is you have none, you know, even though the incredible talent and work and organization it takes to raise children is beyond something good on a resume, right? that was the real estate was something that she could get into without going back to school, which was really important. And, you I remember her telling me stories because at that point ⁓ I was of taking care of my younger brother while she was at work. And she would come home with these stories about the gross things she had to clean and the smells and all this stuff. And I thought, well, this is not glamorous, but man, she was determined to rise to the and be good at this job. And was insanely proud of her because it was nothing in her background. And as a self-absorbed 12 year old, you I didn't really think about what it cost her, you know, what it cost her to go to work. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Ellery Adams: and then also still be in charge of the house and us. And if one of us needed new socks or if I needed cookies for, know, a sports team, that was still all down to her. Jennifer Jumba: it's fascinating. I just read a book called Invisible Women, and it's all about the data gap exists because every study, that they is based on a male. And without that female perspective as well as data, things are flawed. ⁓ The cars we drive are flawed because all the crash test are men, and men are anatomically different than we are. ⁓ then the other thing that they talked about is the value of running a household and raising a family and how to your point, you can't capture all of that on a resume, but you're like the CEO of a household and all the things that you have to do and you have to meet and make sure everybody's on track. mean, that is so valuable, but unfortunately somewhat dismissed our society. Ellery Adams: Bye. Jennifer Jumba: Like I would challenge any CEO to try to run a household, who's running a company right now and be like, okay, how do you it? How do you. Ellery Adams: Right, with three kids and dogs and yeah, I'd love to see it. Right, I'd love to see it. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. And your kids are involved in... Yeah. I think that would be a great reality show. You you take a CEO from... Ellery Adams: Friday we could do like freaky boardroom, right? And a gerial swap. Jennifer Jumba: It's exactly right. would be so. ⁓ I find the whole thing fascinating that your characters, women, they're strong. have a sense of agency at a time period where that was still kind of sad to say, like up and coming. ⁓ And the coming of age story with Jill, who's Natalie's daughter, there were like. Ellery Adams: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Jumba: reminders almost of like the Nancy Drew and the Trixie Belden of to understand and kind of crave knowledge and kind of solve something or answer something that was perplexing. So that was quite fun to see that as well. When you were growing up, you talk about somewhat being autobiographical, did you ever think you would write a story about it? Were you always a writer at that age? Ellery Adams: I actually was, used to write stories and sell them on the school bus. So I always knew that I should get paid for it. Like, you're not gonna get these books for free. And they were so deliberate and a little bit manipulative, I have to admit, because I'd write these stories for my girlfriends, whatever I was rushing on, right? It was all this. Jennifer Jumba: That's awesome. Ellery Adams: you know, I love Bobby, ⁓ know, in this story, Bobby wouldn't notice her and then she'd have some Cinderella esque glow up. And then you are from across the room and he'd have little hearts over his head. And at the end, you know, they were like getting married and more hearts over their heads. And I would charge a quarter for these things. I was basically writing like penny romances, so to speak. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Ellery Adams: the bus and I would illustrate them too and my illustrations were not great but I graduated from that my grandfather who was kind of a renaissance man he lived in Florida would come up to visit and would say okay what what are you writing now and he not one of these ⁓ this is great just because I was his granddaughter and wrote it he would have the red pen behind his ear and he'd pull it out and he'd be like Well, what else could you tell us about this section? Right. And he wasn't and he didn't have a teacher background. He was a dentist, but he had also like a master's degree on the seven deadly sins. And he ⁓ multiple languages and he played instruments and he was a painter. So he was just really in and creation of art and. Jennifer Jumba: one Wow. Ellery Adams: He was always pushing me. So I would started writing more stories and I would send them to him in Florida and he would send them back with all of these red marks. And if I corrected them edited them and made them better, then I would get rewarded with usually like this is the strangest combo, a package of hard candy butterscotch ⁓ a jar of sweet gherkin pickles. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Okay. Ellery Adams: because he and I both loved pickles butterscotch candy. So I was basically bribed with salt and sugar to become a better writer by my grandfather. ⁓ Yeah, I was really into it. And when I got bored in class, I start writing stories, which is why I barely passed any math class. My brain just doesn't work with numbers. And so I would start, I got in trouble all the time. Jennifer Jumba: What a wonderful story though. Ellery Adams: because then I'd write about somebody in class and I would it over to them. So my notes were all these little fictional anecdotes and I tried to make people laugh, you because I was very insecure about being so bad at math. So I turned to kind of like the Joker thing ⁓ I was constantly getting in trouble for writing stories when I was supposed to be doing geometry. But, know, hey, I've never needed geometry. I just want to say that in public. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: And I would say like the butterscotch and the sweet gherkin pickles certainly worked because to have published, over 40 novels and then this invasive species, which is unlike anything else I've ever read, absolutely loved it. So character driven. And at the same time, there's the sense of setting and then the myriad of plots and the nuances and the layers. I mean, it's really hard sometimes to to break it down to your point of an elevator pitch? How can he possibly, I think it's a great book for discussion. So for those of you listening, ⁓ discussion groups, there's so many things to ponder and to think about. Can we talk a little bit about Mrs. Smith? mean, the opening scene has her sitting basically in the tub reading a Cosmo magazine, and then gets frustrated by what it says and so throws it, you know, I think we've all been there with, you know, reading stories of what we're supposed to do or supposed to look like. Ellery Adams: I think particularly beauty magazines, especially from that period. My memory isn't that great. So I did pick up a couple of copies Cosmo from eBay. First of all, I was really shocked by how expensive they were. I was like, come on, this is just a Cosmo magazine. It's just ⁓ ads then like a great quiz maybe. I mean, to diminish Cosmo, but when I read when I was younger, I was just... Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Ellery Adams: There was so many pages to skip. But kind of was using Cosmo as a mirror a little bit to the ⁓ ⁓ Jill, who is the 12-year-old, really has body issues. And Ellery, a 55-year-old, still has the same body issues. that's why. Right. But I think that magazines really ⁓ amplified Jennifer Jumba: It will resonate, a lot of us do. Ellery Adams: any of our insecurities back then, which was ironic considering the ⁓ were going for this. Women are bold. Women are confident. That was kind of the whole ⁓ vibe. you were only supposed to be bold or confident if you looked like Brooke Shields, which very of us did. And I particularly picked Brooke Shields because she was so young when she started. And also I think she's astonishingly beautiful and really just cool. current Brooke Shields is just really cool. And she was the kind of person I would look at when I was younger and be like, you know, I wish I looked like her. And now Mrs. Smith is looking at Cosmo and thinking the things that the women in these magazines are concerned about are so dumb because they can't learn her. ⁓ But the one area she can identify with is a woman who writes into the editor and says, you know, I'm hungry all the time. I want to be thinner. I want to get into this other dress size, but I'm hungry. And Mrs. Smith is like, well, now this is a human I can relate to because I too am always hungry. And there is this idea of women that we're not supposed to be hungry. We're not supposed to have appetites. We're not supposed to have extreme desires because none of these things are feminine. Jennifer Jumba: Right. Yeah, I'm not supposed to be assertive because then we're bossy and all of that. Ellery Adams: Right. That were monstrous. know, any extreme emotion is, is Jennifer Jumba: Agreed. I just find it interesting, know, Mrs. Smith, some of the things that she talks about or. just how like her, her hiddenness, her survival depended on being isolated and being alone. And then, you know, there's also along with her, when we're talking about like her, basically her lands just being kind of dilapidated and uncared for and somewhat wild. And you do such a great job in terms of description. Like there's this love of language. have little sentences that I like write down and just so I can pull them out and read them over again. you're describing her woods and they were made up of sharp spindly trees crowded together like needles in a pin cushion. And all of us, that image such a powerful connection. So immediately we see exactly what it's like. So ⁓ well done terms of finding the right way to explain things. ⁓ I shouldn't right way, a good way to explain things because it's so done. Ellery Adams: Thank you. Jennifer Jumba: And it's peppered throughout this novel. Some of the things that I love reading about books are the observances of everyday life. I there's a scene where Jill's watching her mom kind of sweep the breadcrumbs off the table into the bowl of her hand and then toss it in the trash. Like those are gestures that we do all the time and to see them captured in a novel, it's always something I'm a fan of. I there's other things that happen to characters in books and novels that won't happen to us, but. By the same token, there's just something very human about that experience. Ellery Adams: I feel like the little details ground us, especially we're reading a weird book. And this is, let's face it, this is a weird book. And love little details in ⁓ books and in film. I think that Tyler and Ann Patchett, Jim Krueger, all these guys, just so many people that, we talking earlier about Lauren She's another one. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Ellery Adams: But in these little details and I'm here for it, like I don't think that they slow down the pacing. I think they ground us and they put us in the scene. So I those little things like I love it when a character is like, I don't know, wiping something down with a sponge or folding a t-shirt a certain way because I'm then I'm there with them in the room with them and well, I really understand you as a human being right now because I like how you Clean your counter. Jennifer Jumba: even a moment in terms of liking characters where this is written from different perspectives and we'll talk about that in a second. But Natalie is so frustrated with Gina who's kind of the brown-noser the real estate firm. just at one point she's like, I just wanted to smack her and watch ⁓ the fingers of my hand spread on her face. And I was like, do we've been there? So capturing. Ellery Adams: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: won't say who, but all had those moments where it's like, come on, right? And so yes, ⁓ feel least I did when I was a reader, that I feel that I'm right there with the character. And because you chose, we'll talk a little bit about this, why you chose to write it from multiple of view kind of gives you that different perspective that you're sitting right there in that same space with that character. So can you talk a little bit about offering multiple points of view in this writing? Ellery Adams: Right. Same. ⁓ I can. It almost like if you can picture a statue of a woman who has a head with six faces, I just wanted those, the body to stay the same and then the face to on that head. Like here's another woman and what she's going through. Here's a young woman and what she's going through. Here's an older, here's a mature woman and what she's going through. And here's a female who is not human. and what her motivations are. And I really, but they all carry a woman's shape. wanted there to be some universal ties between them just as women. And then I also wanted them to be extremely unique. I was hoping that with every point of view, nobody sound the same. And that was a huge challenge for me because I don't write that way in my mysteries. Everything I mystery novels comes from the point of my main character. and yes, they're a kind of a fellowship, but it is a fellowship that circulates around one son, the main character. If the main character died in My Mysteries, we would be in trouble. Any one of these women in this book could die and the book would go on only because I'm hoping that the other voices are strong enough. And they really, I needed there to be multiple women with multiple points of view to get all of my millions of points across. for example, I really want someone to be able to have to face the oriental bittersweet vines ⁓ grow crazy in Mrs. Smith's ⁓ because those are an invasive species and thus the name of book. And yet they're not the only invasive species from the book. We ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Right. Ellery Adams: are because we are ruining the ocean and we are messing up all kinds of things on land and there's reason to hate us if you are a creature that depends on nature for survival. whoever was focusing on eradicating this vine couldn't be the same person who was also on throwing a ginormous over the top, insanely, almost disgustingly lavish bar mitzvah. So, and then love coming of age themes ⁓ all It's absolutely one of my favorite themes. ⁓ I it's something I tell people who don't read Stephen King. When they say, ⁓ I don't read Stephen King because I don't like horror. I will often say to them, he writes that aren't horrific. And he really is one of the best coming of age writers of Jennifer Jumba: 90. Ellery Adams: all time, not just now, of time. He writes the so Get out and read fairy tale then. ⁓ You don't to read the horror. But I think all of us the journey of coming of age character. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about Jill. She's 12, she's the quintessential middle child, right? Her older brother can do no wrong. He's the star of swim team, which she aspires to even get on team that would be able to compete for trophies. She has a younger brother, Justin, who's just ⁓ everybody adores, right? Because just little and sweet. So talking about her and her coming of age and finding her sense of self and the relationship she has with her Icelandic housekeeper, Una. Talk a little bit about that dynamic. Ellery Adams: So Jill is basically me. I was definitely the kid who never passed the presidential fitness test ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: don't think they do that anymore, do they? Ellery Adams: No, they don't, thank God. Or if they do change because I just remember, first of all, I'm a super slow runner. I've always been. I'm really just, plod along at things and I will get there in the end. There's no speed with me. And I remember, oh my gosh, the time. I would get in the gym and I'd be like, I can't get up there. You want me to move these hips and thighs up there? That's not. Jennifer Jumba: Ha ha ha! Well, the reverse arm hang was what always got me. you Ellery Adams: But you know, then I'd be friends with people on the school bus who could just scurry up that rope and they were just like, this is easy. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: also the people though that couldn't write a short story on the bus and sell it, I'll just say. Ellery Adams: Right, so thank I like that plug instead. And I really a terrible reputation as a kid for being a liar. And I have to my parents with this since then and said, well, was I really lying? Or was I exaggerating to make a story? ⁓ I think it more like that. And maybe it was a combination of both but Jennifer Jumba: Right. Ellery Adams: I was really not to be trusted because if I came home and repeated a tale, I always embellished it. I wanted it to be a better story than the way it stood. this kind of gave me a reputation as not being trustworthy. And I thought, what would it be like to raise a kid like that? To try to kind of look at that from my parents' point of view. And if kid came to me and actually said, You this person is bad or this person is that I'm not sure if I would have believed me. And I thought that lack of credibility and that kind of head in the clouds and I was really obsessed with myth when I was about that age. I reading all kinds of things that had anything to do with mythological beasts or monsters those were the books. out of the library, just, I've just honestly devouring that all I wasn't reading about sharks because I was terrified of sharks. I there were no Gorgons outside of us, but I wasn't so sure about the sharks because we lived on the water just like this family does. And I was really, really traumatized by Jaws. And I horror and I Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Ellery Adams: My parents were so great because they were really open to letting me read whatever I wanted to read. I had no restrictions in the library. I read Stephen King at a very early age. Didn't bother me. Loved it. As a matter of fact, I started reading horror novels like with my mom. She would read one and give one to me and then we would talk about it. And I was very young for that. And well, I mean, maybe it did scar me for life. I am writing some books. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah. Ellery Adams: So, know, Jill was really this person who trustworthy and was obsessed with monsters. But then she's ⁓ a connection with Una who's from Iceland. Iceland is so just with folklore. mean, there are little houses that they put out for the elves to go into so that the elves don't mess with them. You know, this is just it's a tradition. They're not all over the place. It's not as many as there used to be, but every boulder that's kind of halfway in between the shore and the water, that's where a troll got caught by the sun. They have a million. They have a sea monster museum for crying out loud. I mean, this is a culture that is just steeped in wonderful folklore. we really did have an Icelandic housekeeper who would come in when my parents were both away. Jennifer Jumba: Well, uh-oh. Ellery Adams: for than a night. It was longer than we could be trusted with the babysitter because we were kind of a handful, the three of us. But we were angelic for her because she was just such an amazing person. She was very gentle and kind. And she this very ⁓ melodic voice. she told us great stories. And she really very much like a fairy tale godmother. She had this long silver hair. Sapphire blue eyes and was just always gentle and sweet and she was a fantastic cook, you know, we were like, don't ever leave. Jennifer Jumba: Yeah, I really liked the character and I liked the dynamic because she seemed to honor who Jill was. Jill's also a writer, which is part of the reason why she can't be trusted. And there's a nice reference in there to the 1980s, like time bandits, what would you have done, right? You have this imagination, can't be trusted. And you say something's bad, nobody really wants to believe you. And so there's this like rapport that she develops with Ellery Adams: Yeah. Jennifer Jumba: Charlie, to kind of work together along with Una. Una honoring who Jill is and I want to say allowing, but giving her permission to be who she is, because that's a 12 years, that's a tough age trying to figure out where you fit, where you belong, what you like versus what other people like. that is certainly a challenge. Ellery Adams: It is. And I think that even at young ages, who are kind of slanted more toward writing, arts, they also tend to be sometimes unsettlingly observant. ⁓ So these the kids where if you're at a big party, you'll notice them watching the adults and watching Jennifer Jumba: Please. Ellery Adams: And I think that I had always been somebody like that. I'm still like that. I'm the person at the coffee store where coffee shop where I'm writing for a little bit. And then I'll just kind of like idly watch people because first of all, people are just fascinating. I like to observe people and I've even a kid. But you that that can be kind of unsettling too, you know, and then what are they doing with this information? And I think that in stories for ages and ages and ages, the kids have seen the monsters first because observing them in a different way, they're the ones who are scared. They're the ones who looking for safety and sanctuary and can be threatened by things that don't feel safe. And it's tradition for the adults not to believe them. I mean, we would not have issues with Pennywise if someone had believed that there was a clown in the, in the sewers. Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. played. Yeah, I to the of observation. It kind of made me think a little bit of like a little bit a Sherlock-esque in terms of her powers of observation. Ellery Adams: Hahaha! Or in my time, I would have been encyclopedia Brown because he was my guy. A guy. Jennifer Jumba: I forgot about encyclopedia. Yes. Yes. And then going to the library, And for books, you even point out the call numbers. I my library is Library of Congress. However, the Dewey of the fairy tales folktales, you start here and you end up at 398.2. Like, like Dewey numbers and librarians have this ⁓ cool role. And the books that they're reading to find information, there's ⁓ the secret of Cold Harbor, the town where they live. There's things happening in the pages of the book as they're reading them, which is completely unsettling. So you do this great mix up as a reader where there are scenes where very comfortable, right? You talk about, this was one of my other favorites, Justin being Jill's youngest brother. in the library with Una. Una knew he was okay because he was over in the children's section scanning his finger on the pages to find the mouse. And, you know, Richard's scary, busy town. thought, my gosh, how many times I've done that. So there's the ordinary, right? The things that we're comfortable with and seeing and have done a gazillion times. And at the same time, you have her over looking at this secret history and, unsettled with the things that are happening in the books. And, the thing that's, you insect that's tapping at the window. Ellery Adams: Right, right. Jennifer Jumba: you're off kilter throughout the story as a reader, which I'm hoping was your intent, which is great. And at the same time, you ground us in the ordinary things that we're accustomed to. It's great read. I challenge anybody to be able to put it down. ⁓ Ellery Adams: ⁓ thank you. I do love to put books inside of books whenever I can. That's I think that's I hope that's kind of one of my signatures. I don't think I've ever finished a book without mentioning other book titles inside there because they're just they're my life. I mean, I read them, I collect them. I go to author events, like any other fangirl and line up to say hello and get my books Jennifer Jumba: Mm-hmm. Right. Ellery Adams: It's hard for me not to insert not only my enthusiasm for books, but just that the answers to so much of what we're looking for. They're in there, you know, and if you can find people who believe that with you and in this novel, it's Una and Jill are going to the library, but also it's kind of a library date for Una and her husband. It's a kind of a state. And I love them as a couple. think they're just this really sweet, loving, couple. And it's kind of like who I want to be when I grow up. Jennifer Jumba: I mean, there's a great line where he, doesn't get upset when, when Uno refers to Iceland as home versus cold harbor. And just that, that subtle observation, like, yeah, he doesn't even get upset when I refer to that as home. I just, yeah, exactly. who, who you think, you know, people should be or, you know, aspire to just to completely understand somebody instead of getting upset. Like that's, this isn't. Iceland's not home. Yeah, it's where you're from, but home is Cold Harbor. Like, it does that, it's just, And yeah, the canvas tote that they take to the library on their weekly visits and how they kind of split up to look at different things and then kind of come back, it's fun to ⁓ see dynamic played out. At the same time, you know, it's incredibly sensitive to Mrs. Smith and property and the things that are going on with that. Ellery Adams: Right. So she kind of breaks the rule of not being the kid that believes in something sinister next door. that's because she had an experience as a child herself ⁓ resulted in great loss. And so I think that when you've been through a trauma as a kid, there's always a part of you that is on and little guarded, you never really are going to get over that. You can heal and you can and you can go on to have a satisfying life. But that scarred of you is just covering up, you know, fear that's never totally going to be gone. And so that makes Una somebody who's willing to believe Jill and also willing to act on it, which takes an incredible amount of courage and a group who would never believe what you were saying. Jennifer Jumba: that's part of the reason why she's one of my favorites in the book. ⁓ other thing, and you talked a little bit about it earlier, but I wanna kind of circle back to is the tension that exists and there seems to be a theme of environment and the things that we are doing to it as humans. talking about the poison from engines factories and underwater cages and mesh tunnels. and that humans had taken so much land from themselves. And this is from the perspective of Mrs. Smith who enjoys being in the water, and wondering if that was designed on purpose to kind of send a message that's subtle, but at the same time alarming to us as readers. ⁓ Ellery Adams: Yeah, I mean, I definitely wanted to get in a dig about consumption ⁓ not respecting the environment and climate change. And a lot of that was really based on the changes that I've my hometown water ecosystem through. So I don't live in New York anymore, but I think not long after moved away, they really started having issues with the lack of oxygen on the Long Island Sound and Wildlife systems that had been there forever, eels, for example, were dying and horseshoe crabs were dying. And it started affecting humans, when they were no longer able to harvest the oysters and other that they needed for selling, that's when they started realizing like, what is happening? Where are all the animals in here going? And so then of course they did studies and they found out. that all of these companies were dumping into the Hudson River and all this stuff was coming out into the sound. I will say that New York did not sit on this. They actually acted. And Long Island Sound is really in recovery, which is story because you don't often get that. But it's still a that's global, that water just... Jennifer Jumba: Good. Ellery Adams: What beach can you walk on and not see a plastic water bottle or some other detritus like up on the waves? And makes angry. I hate that. I actually really hate littering. And you know, I'm one of those people have like laser eyes. I would vaporize anybody who I ⁓ saw littering. just ⁓ a big peeve of mine. And we're doing it on a global scale, you know? Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ they care. And we think, ⁓ it's just one water bottle. It's just one whatever. ⁓ cumulatively for me to say, it does an impact. And at the same time, we can take that same cumulative nature of human beings and change and reverse the damage. I a rower and so I am on the river frequently here, the Cuyahoga in Cleveland. And yeah, you're rowing past and it's sad to see all the stuff that is washing up. we have an amazing coach who wears gloves while she's coaching us riding in the launch alongside who will grab the stuff just so it's not in there anymore. Ellery Adams: That's awesome. I love her. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: yeah do i except when she's coaching us really hard but ⁓ yeah i'm like look a water bottle look debris some garbage that's exactly right but i'm glad that you brought that up because the thing that's amazing about this book and the thing that makes me so excited is so many universal universal themes about women and coming together you know to do good or sometimes not so good Ellery Adams: Right, yep. Look, I think there's a whole cardboard box over there, Coach. Jennifer Jumba: what we're doing universally to the environment, what we do or what we've experienced as 12 year olds in terms of trying to figure out our place in the world and what's important to us, all universal things, but yet you play them out with such incredible characters. So you it from a different perspective. You're not just seeing the PSA like littering is bad, but you're seeing that it has on real humans. there's a face to that problem, right? We understand Mrs. Smith. Ellery Adams: Hahaha Jennifer Jumba: And that's the great thing is sharing her perspective on things. As you talked about, like the six faces kind of turning around and being able to see a very same situation, but from different perspectives, it just deepens it. And then at the same time as a reader, you're like, okay, well, which one is right? Or are they all right? Because we all come with our own experience to things and how we see things. Ellery Adams: And I tend to be somebody who likes a villain in general. mean, if a villain well written, I tend to kind of side with them like, yeah, I get where you're coming from. I think that the best villains are representing angers and frustrations that we're walking around with. you know, it's not like we need to all go out there and start murdering people. That's not what I'm saying. But I'm saying that their motivation is sometimes something I can and I often find them the most interesting person in the book. Probably because you can see the slow progression of disappointments anger and injustices can twist somebody and change the trajectory of their actions and their lives. Jennifer Jumba: And I also think it's not normally done with big action. It's normally done with these small little things that when add up the small little things, that's what creates that gap or that, swinging of a pendulum in the opposite direction. I mean, yes, there are big egregious things that happen. what's happening in the Potomac is egregious, big event. But oftentimes it's the person who just the water bottle or chucks the bag or the bag blows away and they don't go and get it. those are the things that, just kind are interesting. And I think we as human beings, for the most part, aren't that much different. It's little things that we do that just kind of add up. And then it becomes like our narrative or the narrative for the neighbor who doesn't talk to anybody, house is like big, but kind of ramshackle. So really Ellery Adams: Right. And I think that any creature, whether human, animal, any creature, if their home being threatened, they respond. And that's just not us. mean, that's animals too. So for Mrs. Smith's which is the water, is under It's being threatened, and she's going to lash out. And I find that OK. Jennifer Jumba: There's something satisfying about that because somebody's taking action to something that is so wrong. And it's that action that draws the attention to what is wrong in the first place. I mean, ⁓ a great line. Jill continues writing, right, and her teacher, Mr. Tibby, talks about one of the things that she submitted. And he says to her, who doesn't love a hero? But I think the villains are interesting too. Why are they so angry? Why do they want to hurt those around them? What's the story behind those emotions? And I think not only is that a great quote from your book, but it's also of emblematic of this whole story and trying to understand why we do what we do and how one perception completely change and turn events. So. Absolutely, absolutely fascinating. Yeah, no, I mean, it's been it was a fantastic read. I could not put it down. And, watching and seeing perspective ⁓ and why doing what they're doing and how they come to rationalize at times, ⁓ their decisions absolutely fascinating. a terrific, terrific book. So I'm so excited for you. Ellery Adams: You said that better than I did. So I'm just going to let you say that. Thank you, thank you. Jennifer Jumba: I could talk to you the rest of the afternoon. This is. Ellery Adams: Yeah, we just pour some more coffee and go. Jennifer Jumba: Exactly, you know, talk Lauren Groff and Anne Patchett and I don't know maybe some, you French. Yeah. Ellery Adams: And I think, oh, oh, don't even get me started. I knew it. I knew we were so bad at it. Yes. Jennifer Jumba: Jane Harper. Yeah, I mean, it's just like they're all launching books this year. And I'm like, this is like the greatest thing ever. For sure. Ellery Adams: I'm telling you, 2026 is going to be a good book year. Jennifer Jumba: It is a good book, here, for sure. Yes. Ellery Adams: Yeah, and we need them more than ever. you, writers. Jennifer Jumba: Yes, say, yeah, thank you. As reader myself and as a librarian, being able to put stories in the hands of customers who come in, it's special. It's like being a matchmaker a little bit, you know, finding just the right book for that right reader and. ⁓ Ellery Adams: 100 % You are a certified bibliotherapist. through books. Jennifer Jumba: well, thank you all for writing them. You know, I can't tell you how many times they have healed me or given me a different perspective that I otherwise wouldn't have had. I think there's that of safety in a book. And also books facilitate tough, tough discussions, because we can talk about the environment through ⁓ Mrs. eyes, not for the person who's sitting directly across the table from us, which also Ellery Adams: Mm-hmm. Right. And if you put your, you're willing to put yourself in, in uncomfortable scenes. And if you're willing to say, example, I'm a person who I don't believe in trigger warnings. I feel like I to be open to ⁓ anything if it makes me uncomfortable, that's something I want to explore, you know, there's the potential for growth there and I'm not judging anybody else. There's a million reasons. why people respond to trigger warnings. This is just for me. I will read anything because often a book I've thought I really don't want to read this that I've gotten the most growth from. And I've thought would never ever have experienced this perspective, this experience, this difficulty in my life. And I'm so grateful to this author for making me feel all of these things, even though I hated all of those feelings because I just grew from that and I think and hope I'm now a little bit more empathetic than I was before I read that book, even though it was so hard. Jennifer Jumba: think that's fantastic advice. think people who read tend to be more empathetic because they have those different experiences. I think all artwork, writing being a form of artwork and expression, is to emotions and for people to respond viscerally to things, whether it's on the in a book or it's a painting on a or it's a sculpture, I think ⁓ we come at things viscerally and it turns something up and it's when those emotions are turned up that you really need to stop and kind of pause and kind of unpack. I hate to use the word unpack, maybe kind of noodle on it a little bit to figure out why. ⁓ But I think it's a really good thing. had somebody tell me the other day that, you know, challenges are just opportunities for growth. And I was like, huh, I guess that's exactly right. Like, yeah, I need to cross-pitch that, right. Ellery Adams: Yeah. You're like, that sounds like a needlepoint pillow. Jennifer Jumba: as we wrap up, this is storied end, the five questions. So one of the features in Mrs. Smith's house is a stained glass window with, I'm gonna say an octopus, but we know there's an extra limb. What would you feature in a stained glass window in your home? Ellery Adams: man, that's tough. I am a crazy cat lady, so there might be a cat sitting on top of a stack of books, probably. Jennifer Jumba: Perfect. app do you use most on your phone? Ellery Adams: gonna have to say it's a tie between Libro FM because I always have an audiobook going and I got a plug for Libro FM because they support independent bookstores and I love them. And then Instagram because I really do interact with a lot of people on Bookstagram and it is my happy place because I'm in this little bubble of book people and I love it. Jennifer Jumba: video. Good. Okay, the book Una finds in the library is the secret history of Cold Harbor, the town that they're living in. What town would you like to find a book that contains a secret history of? Ellery Adams: that is cool. Maybe the one I'm my mom in. So my mom lives about eight miles up the road from me in a little town called Hillsborough, North Carolina. And it has a very colorful history and a lot of ghosts. So there's been a bit of violence there. There are several house. There's a haunted hotel and it's it's Jennifer Jumba: Thank you. Ellery Adams: You know, it's not like fun romantic ghost stuff. It's like ugly, horrible stuff. But ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Stephen King White Ghost. Ellery Adams: Yeah, well, know, slaves and unmarked graves, people lynched, mean, and stuff during the Revolutionary War things to an indigenous people, it's all really tragic. But it's so in history had such an interesting, like, you know, one side of the tracks with money and the other side of the tracks didn't have money. I think that the true history of it is probably not really out there. Jennifer Jumba: Hmm Ellery Adams: would be a good read. Jennifer Jumba: ⁓ absolutely. This book is set in the 1980s, as some of your others are. What is the best part of the 1980s that you wish was still around today? Ellery Adams: well, that is so tough. God, no, I hated those. I a Swiffer, I already had big shoulders. I did not need any more of those. I think I'm gonna have to go for books and movies, because there are super cheesy movies from the ⁓ 80s that everybody still loves. I think, you know, the reason for that is that they were all heroes journeys. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Please don't say shoulder pads. this. Yes. Ellery Adams: It was very much the Frodo, the Bilbo. it's this, the every, at home could save the world and the kids could save the world. And you have a bunch of friends and get out there, have some cheesy sound effects and cheesy visual effects. And loved it. I love the movies from the eighties. Jennifer Jumba: Yes. Yeah, you need. Agreed. I'm trying to encourage my nieces to watch some of the movies from the 80s. Ellery Adams: ⁓ I showed them to my kids and they're like, this is trash. Like, this is trash. Like, up to your room. ⁓ Jennifer Jumba: Exactly. then the final question, what song do you always include on a road trip playlist? Ellery Adams: none, because I'm always listening to an audiobook. Jennifer Jumba: Okay, good. Ellery Adams: Yeah. I mean, I have like music that I associate with books. Like for this book, it's definitely Eye of the Tiger by Survivor, because that was our swim team song from. So then that that's a classic too. Come on. I mean. Right. You're thinking rocky, thinking I might start exercising today, but then the song ends. You're like, I might go to Dunkin Donuts today. Jennifer Jumba: Thank It is a classic. it on and you can't just not sing along and it's for us. Yes. right. huge thank to of you who are listening and an even bigger thank you to Ellery Adams for this spectacular story invasive species. Get your copy today and I have no doubt you will enjoy the story and be caught up in the history, the mythology ⁓ and the nostalgia of the and even hints of mysteries we enjoyed as young adults will find it very hard to put To know who else is going to be a guest, go to storiedaccount.com. This is Story to Count with Jen Jumba.