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From Duke Medicine to Private Practice: Jeff Georgi’s Mission · Finding New Waters

0:00
Addiction eats at the very core of who we are as a species, and
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I believe we are. And I think a a got it right.
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It's a spiritual disease because we are spiritual beings.
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Becky has a good friend that talks about we are spiritual
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beings having a human experience and I think we should take that
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in into consideration. And then on top of that, you've
0:25
got experience itself, like trauma, all that conspires to
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make the disease happen. Welcome back everybody to
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another edition of Finding New Waters.
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My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
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Development here at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh, sitting
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here with our very special guest today, Mr. Jeff Georgi.
0:47
Welcome. Thank you.
0:48
Nice to be here. Man, it's so good to see you.
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Thank you for being here in person, which is a rarity these
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days. That's true.
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Well, let's, we'll start the way I first knew who you were was
1:01
when I was newly sober and a friend of mine who won't be for
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anonymity purposes, we won't say his name, but a good friend of
1:08
mine who helped me, has helped me a lot help me, especially in
1:11
his early days was, was working as a recovery coach right for
1:17
Bluefields or something? Tell us about.
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Tell us about that to start. Well, Bluefield was.
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Bluefield, sorry. An effort Becky and I, my wife
1:27
and I put together as because it was simply nothing in the area
1:34
that really helped college students as they, as they were
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coming back to their university of choice after they've had to,
1:42
had to leave on a medical leave. And because Becky had a lot of
1:49
experience in secondary education and saw high school
1:53
kids get in trouble. The, the, the hope was that if
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we created a program for college kids, whether it was UNC, North
2:02
Carolina State, University of Chapel Hill, any of the other
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colleges in North Carolina Central, we had, I've forgotten
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the exact number, but we had something like 80,000 students
2:17
in this area going to school. Well, if you do the math in
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terms of this disease, you know, there are a lot of kids that are
2:25
hurting. And what happened too often was
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they'd get in trouble, their grades would bottom out and
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they'd either get kicked out or they'd leave and they'd give up
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and dive deeper into the addiction.
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So our hope was to get a residential option.
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So not only could we work with the addiction and help them get
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back on track there, but work with the families, integrate
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that with their academics, work with universities to kind of
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help them clean up some of the academic messes that this
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disease causes. And then get back on track and
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eventually graduate from the. You know, if you've, if you're a
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kid in North Carolina and you've you've spent your whole life
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imagining going to UNC and all of a sudden this illness starts
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taking you away from you, That's tragic.
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Our, our hope. And what Bluefield was all about
3:30
was giving that hope back. Yeah.
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Well, I mean, as you're talking about that, you know, both of my
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parents did go to UNC. I did not get into UNC Chapel
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Hill. They appeared on my 4th step,
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which I was able to get over as a resentment.
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But but what I'm really thinking about here is how much I could
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have used a service like this when I because I did exactly
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what you said. I, you know, drugs and alcohol,
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you know, were my priority. And then after not going to
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class for two weeks, I would miss enough where I was in
4:03
academic jeopardy basically. And I didn't have the, there was
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not that I didn't have the wherewithal.
4:07
The resources weren't there. If I knew, if they were, I
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didn't know about them to kind of do what you said were like,
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hey, like I'm struggling here. I need some help not just to
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bail me out, but to help me not to not as a handout, but to help
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me, you know, and I and I just, you know, and that that's what I
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did, you know, eventually I got it together and graduated when I
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was 25 years old, but it took, took a while.
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Well, the very first person call him a kid, he we had was AUNC
4:36
student. Again, for anonymity purposes, I
4:39
won't mention his name, but he hadn't gone to class in an
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entire semester. I know how it goes.
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And he literally had stayed in his dorm and drank and the only
4:51
time he went out was to get alcohol and his family
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discovered it. They freaked out.
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They somehow knew Becky, they're in touch with her, and he was a
5:02
very first student. And it is one of those stories
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that, I mean, it makes me want to cry.
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It was so powerful because he not only did he, he graduate, he
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was a great big guy. He was, he was, he, he was about
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5-10, I think, I think 610 rather.
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And Becky's about 55515 maybe. So he's short.
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And I, we've got this picture be of of this this student just
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after he's graduated. Well, let me tell you a story
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before I get there. He'd never been to a UNC
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basketball game his entire life, never been to a college
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basketball game as a student at UNC.
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So once he gets into our program and gets stable, he puts his
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name into the lottery system. And lo and behold, I'm going to
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I am going to call out this one. He he gets a ticket and it's to
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the Duke UNC game. It was one of those years where
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Duke was an absolute prohibitive favorite and everybody knew that
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UNC was going to lose, but he was still excited about going.
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So he goes. And as you can often know, it
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doesn't go the way people thought.
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And UNC won. So Becky and I were on duty that
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night. We had 24 hour a day coverage
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and so we were the house parents.
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That night comes back in and he stands at the door and he says,
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I now know what it's like to be a college student.
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Oh my God. And he broke into tears.
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Wow. And I've got a picture of him
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after he graduated, still in his academic robes, and he's hugging
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Becky and all you can see is the top of her head.
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And it's just such a powerful picture.
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He's gone on to be a very respected journalist in
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Scandinavia of all places. It's a long story, but if we did
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nothing else with Bluefield, that one young man would have
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made it worthwhile. We were lucky to have a lot of
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those young men and it was a powerful program.
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I love how you said that too, but just that one story would
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have made it all worthwhile. I mean, I, I, you know, that's
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why we do this. That's why we and I want to
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speak at a meeting. If I just say a little prayer,
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if I can just help just one person, I mean, that's
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beautiful. And I mean, I think it probably
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ties in to this book you've just published called Beyond Shame,
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Healing the pain beneath the surface of addiction put up to
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the camera here. You know, I remember pretty
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early on in my recovery hearing that trauma was the original
8:19
gateway drug. And then, you know, kind of tied
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in with that is shame. So will you talk about the
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genesis of this book and kind of what what it's all about?
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Sure. We were extraordinarily
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fortunate years ago to we got a phone call from South Carolina
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and it was a man I didn't know at the time, or at least I
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didn't know I knew. And his name was Bob Toomey and
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he was the head of the South Carolina Department of Substance
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Use Disorders for, for treatment.
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And basically what he said was, Jeff, I've seen you talk
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somewhere, I don't even remember where, but I remember the liking
9:04
what you said. And I run programs in pretty
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much every county in my state. They all have a different diet,
9:16
a different definition of addiction.
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They're doing different things. And some of them don't really
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have a foundation of any kind of academic understanding of, of
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the complexity of this illness. Would you come down and train
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our state? Train our state, yes.
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Train our whole state and and I look at Becky and I go this is
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this is nuts. But we did first.
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I went down and we worked to open an adolescent, a really
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neat adolescent program called called White Horse.
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And then we worked in a woman's program.
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At this point I'm realizing I am way above my head and I got
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Becky involved, who's a family therapist and she so she thinks
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systems and she looked at what I was doing and saw the
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opportunity really to to change the state.
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And we came up with this treatment and slash training
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program that lasted about 8 years.
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And, and we were able to take clinicians who didn't have a
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foundation in, in, in the academic appreciation of what
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addiction is, give them that solid foundation and
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understanding, while at the same time help them learn an
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intervention called modified interpersonal group
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psychotherapy, which gave them the opportunity in Becky's
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language, to move from competence to confidence.
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And when a clinician is confident that that gets picked
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up by the patients and, and all of a sudden they started seeing
11:06
their outcomes were better, which it just fed on itself.
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And that's how it got started. In the process, we, a friend of
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ours did a study paralleling all this activity and discovered
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that 50% of the services provided in South Carolina, and
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they're not unique in this 50% of those services was delivered
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by a clinician who had less than three years experience.
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So they didn't there'd be no way they could really have a sense
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of what they were doing in terms of, of again, the dealing with
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the complexity of this illness. So that's what this book is.
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It's really, I mean, I think families can use it.
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I think patients can use it. But it was really written for
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the young clinician who once who wants to really know what
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they're treating and once kind of a guidebook into into that
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treatment process. Well.
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I on the book jacket. I'm just going to read quickly.
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So Jeff and his his wife Becky, who is also a friend of ours and
12:21
a friend of the program, do a lot of their not all of their
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work together. Most of the work together, but
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the book is written by Jeff with Becky.
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But I'm just going to read since Jeff's sitting here just about
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the about the author Jeff Georgi, master of divinity
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Master. What is mAh again?
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Master of allied health. Allied Health LCMHCLCASCCSCGP
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has worked in the addiction treatment community for 40
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years, having helped thousands of individuals and families, and
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continues in private practice today.
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He's the former clinical director of the Duke Addictions
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Program, has served in Duke University Medical Center's
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departments of Surgery and obstruct.
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Say it for me, Please Obstetrics, obstetrics, and is
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currently a consulting associate in Duke's Department of
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Psychiatry and Behavioral Science.
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How did you get into this field and what was your trajectory in
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terms of like the educational part, What was that like?
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Well, I would, I would. So much of it was lucky and I, I
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got into the field shortly after my own recovery and I started in
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a little funky methadone program working with this wonderful Duke
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position, Charlie Llewellyn, who wanted to, to make that program
13:40
more than just a little adjunct to what was going on in the rest
13:45
of the of the state. So he, he was looking this is,
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this is back in the, this is back in 1983, long time ago.
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And, and back then the vast majority of people were who
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were, who were providing care were, were men.
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They were in recovery, but they were, they didn't have academic
14:11
degrees. And he wanted, he was interested
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in me because I had the academic background and I was now in a
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position to take that and make it integrated into the recovery
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experience. And you were in recovery?
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And I was in recovery. So we we started.
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The most important thing I've ever done in terms of this field
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is not write that book. Most important thing I've ever
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done is work with a wonderful guy named Gary S and I.
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And we started Narcotics Anonymous in Durham, NC and we
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started it not because either one of us had a had a narcotics
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issue. Alcohol was my dominant drug of
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addiction. We started it because we were
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tired of going to meetings with a bunch of old people like me,
15:05
like I am now, you know, So, So what we thought, and it did, it
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attracted younger people. And, and that was the time when,
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when there's just a lot of energy around the field.
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And I went from there to into the criminal justice system.
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I was the United States probation officer and I was one
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of their treatment specialists and all that good stuff.
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And but what was important in all of that was eventually I
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ended up I ended up at Duke and I had I'm still learning.
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One of the things Charlie Llewellyn was so clear with me,
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with Jeff, don't ever think you understand this illness.
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There's always more to learn. And so when I finally got to do
16:01
full time, I had access to some of the the best scientists, the
16:09
best researchers. And I, I use them to help build
16:14
a program, the Duke addictions program with people like Paul
16:18
Naggy and a bunch of other people.
16:21
Our medical director was Roy Matthew was just a wonderful
16:24
program. And then one day and I this,
16:29
this wonderful program. I mean, it lasted for 20 years.
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Somebody in in the higher up at Duke decided that one of the
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dominant healthcare systems in North Carolina was no longer
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going to treat the number one cause of preventable illness and
16:53
death in this country, IE addiction, and they closed it,
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which is why I feel so powerfully about your program.
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I mean, we need if, if you go to the, if you go to one of the
17:09
Duke emergency rooms. And again, Duke has expanded
17:12
well beyond Durham. But if you go to one of the Duke
17:15
emergency rooms and you need substance abuse treatment, they,
17:24
they will refer you immediately to some county agency or some
17:28
other place, sometimes even just a urgent care.
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And that's not what you need. And it is astonishing to me that
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this, this elegant system that has done so much for so many
17:47
people and still does, is blind to this, this one illness which
17:53
speaks not just of Duke, but it speaks of the of the stigma that
18:00
the whole country has in terms of the treatment of this
18:03
disease. Well, you said something really
18:05
interesting a second ago about in 1983 when you were just
18:09
starting to work with Gary S and you said there was so much
18:12
energy around the field. And I was, you know, six years
18:17
old in 1983. But just from being alive for as
18:22
long as I've been alive and been recovery for the time I've been
18:24
in recovery, just kind of looking at it the way it is now
18:27
and what it was like growing up. It seems like while the stigma
18:32
is lessened now and there are plenty of treatment centers, but
18:37
somehow like to back to that comment on the, the energy is
18:41
not quite there. Like it's almost like there's
18:44
more lip service than there was. And then and then it's OK to
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talk about an OK to be, you know, an addict or an alcoholic
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and in recovery, but maybe not like the the, the focus is sort
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of left like and evidenced by Duke not having their addiction
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programming. Is that fair?
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I think that's, I think it's fair.
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I'm not sure the stigma, the stigma is that much less, OK,
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only 10% at best of the people who get who, who, who are, who
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have been struggling with this disease at whatever level that
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is, get any treatment at all, even even defining treatment as
19:30
a conversation with their primary care doc.
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So, so only 10% get even close to a program like yours.
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And the vast majority of people just keep on suffering.
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And that's tragic. And you know, I, I would like to
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say that the stigma has gotten better.
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But when I do training still, I will ask this annoying question.
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You know, if you've got, if you got Dave out there and you know,
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he's, he's smoking a little marijuana and he's using and he
20:04
drinks a little bit too much during a Duke Carolina game.
20:07
And but the drug that's tearing his life apart is
20:12
methamphetamine. We call that methamphetamine,
20:16
his drug of and then if I'm talking to an and it doesn't
20:19
matter whether it's an audience of professionals or lay people,
20:24
everybody virtually will say drug of choice.
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So then I take a deep breath and then I asked the audience,
20:33
what's your cancer of choice? And then there's this big kind
20:39
of sigh and people realize that we've introduced volition into a
20:46
disease. I mean, you know, this nobody,
20:49
nobody chooses addiction any more than they choose cancer,
20:54
right? Yeah.
20:56
I mean. What did you call it earlier?
20:58
But when you said alcohol is my dominant, what did you say?
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A drug of addiction Drug. A dominant drug of addiction.
21:03
Yeah, you're right. I mean, it's, it's just one of
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those probably no one who the first person to say that
21:09
probably didn't have any kind of ill intent, but it is the exact
21:12
opposite of what it means. Exactly because it's in, in the
21:17
same way that nobody, nobody chooses cancer, although,
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although there are certain behaviors that we all engage in
21:26
that could lead us in that direction, right?
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I mean, I've met a lot of people who smoke cigarettes, but I
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never taught anybody who was smoking a cigarette in order to
21:36
get cancer. I mean.
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That just doesn't. Happen.
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No, I mean, and the way you've put it, it's so everything
21:43
you're saying is exactly true. Everybody can relate to it.
21:46
But yet somehow with with this disease, with addiction, it's
21:50
somehow treated so differently, right.
21:52
You're right. Well because again, not
21:56
everybody who smokes gets cancer.
21:59
The silly example I often use are my 2 grandfathers.
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I had, like all of us, 2 grandfathers.
22:04
My maternal grandfather smoked 2 to 3 packs of cigarettes a day.
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Died at the age of 54 of lung cancer.
22:15
My paternal grandfather smoked and they both were smoking
22:18
unfiltered. My maternal grandfather smoked
22:22
Camels. My paternal smoked Pall Malls. 2
22:25
to 3 packs of unfiltered cigarettes every day.
22:30
He washed it down with a fair amount of bourbon, died at the
22:35
age of 89, his death certificate said.
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Old age. Now, what's the difference?
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My paternal grandfather was just lucky.
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And and that's what people don't get.
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They don't realize that there are some people that have both.
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It's a complicated disease and they don't realize that, that
22:59
it's got a biological component, some people, and what that means
23:03
is that some people are biological, biologically
23:06
resilient to it, while others are biologically vulnerable to
23:10
it. It's got a psychological
23:12
component. That's the shame.
23:14
It's got a social component. That's the context as well as
23:18
the social shame and judgment that that your patients deal
23:21
with just like mine do. It's got a spiritual component,
23:28
addiction. Addiction eats at the very core
23:32
of who we are as a species. And I believe we are.
23:35
And I think a a got it right. It's a spiritual disease because
23:40
we are spiritual beings. Becky has a good friend that
23:44
talks about we are spiritual beings having a human
23:48
experience. And I think we should take that
23:52
in into consideration. And then on top of that, you've
23:55
got experience itself like trauma, all that conspires to
24:01
make the disease happen. So if, if, if some of those
24:06
variables have some kind of positive or resiliency factor,
24:12
you may still be using a lot, but you may not cross that line
24:16
into active addiction, right? And something I talk to people a
24:20
lot. I'm sure you've encountered way
24:21
more people like this and I have, but kind of doesn't matter
24:25
how we cross that invisible line into addiction because sometimes
24:29
we get somebody in new waters who had a had an injury and
24:35
they, you know, maybe never even had a drink.
24:37
And the next thing you know, they're addicted to opiates.
24:40
Or, you know, a little old lady who was prescribed Xanax by her
24:43
psychiatrist 35 years ago, didn't never taken a drink, but
24:47
they both crossed that invisible line in different ways.
24:51
Because somebody like me, I think this is where it gets
24:53
complicated sometimes for people is, you know, like I was one of
24:57
those college kids who would have been well served by
24:59
Bluefield, you know, but I was, but I was by choice kind of
25:06
partaking and, you know, drink too much drinking.
25:08
And so it's like the more traditional route to crossing
25:12
the line. But then when people cross the
25:13
line in another way where it's not that traditional route of
25:15
just, you know, being aware of what what 1 is doing, you know
25:19
what I mean? And so then that's where I think
25:21
people get caught up is like what I, I just got hurt.
25:27
I'm but I'm now I'm a now I'm an addict.
25:29
It's like, well. Yeah.
25:31
And I even a little bit challenged the idea in your case
25:36
that that that it was a choice. Right, right.
25:39
I mean, I'm not saying it was, I'm just saying it look, it
25:45
looks like outside. It looks like it because the
25:48
vast majority of what we know, what we know is the vast
25:51
majority of Americans occasionally will drink.
25:54
It may be, it may be, it may be ceremonial, maybe at a wedding
25:59
and it but the vast majority of of people drink and they have no
26:03
problem with it. Right.
26:06
Millions of people take opiates. They have no problem with it.
26:12
So they look at at somebody with a severe alcohol use disorder
26:17
and they say, well, just stop because they can.
26:22
I, I, I try not to be judgmental of how it gets misunderstood
26:27
because it, it makes sense to me that it would.
26:31
What we need, I believe, is a, a, a continued push, not just at
26:37
the brain aspects of addiction, it's the whole person illness.
26:41
And we've got to help people understand the disease and
26:45
realize that if they that there are doors for them to come
26:53
through like your program that give them a start and that,
27:00
that, and they walk into that, into that environment and a for
27:05
the first time, perhaps they're not feeling judged, they're
27:10
feeling at home. Today I met a client who just
27:15
got there yesterday to New Waters yesterday, met him having
27:18
breakfast this morning and we've been talking to this guy, you
27:22
know, an interventionist was involved and one of those just
27:25
high functioning, you know, breadwinner doing well.
27:29
He's the guy who, you know, like high functioning sales guy and
27:33
never been any kind of treatment was scared out of his mind.
27:37
Yeah, you know, and then I and I saw him in person today and he's
27:41
like, man, I had no idea it was going to be like this in here.
27:44
And that's something that's so hard, whether it's new waters or
27:47
somewhere else that is maybe not as you know, quote UN quote
27:49
nice, whatever. Like when I went to treatment, I
27:54
didn't spend a lot of time thinking about what the word
27:56
detox meant. But if I did hear that word, I
27:59
had this image of being handcuffed to a radiator.
28:01
I don't know why that was what I thought about and told to sweat
28:04
And they were maybe like put a plate of white bread sandwich
28:07
under the door in a glass of water.
28:09
But where I went was was not new waters.
28:12
It wasn't open yet, but but it but it was it was great.
28:16
It was fine. You know, in the my point is we
28:19
have these images and that were detox.
28:20
I have to remind myself that like, that's what I thought
28:24
about this not that long ago and this is what most people will
28:28
probably have some similar image, that this is some really,
28:31
really scary thing. Well, it's, and it is
28:37
independent of how, how and independent of of the way the
28:43
treatment program works. It's still terrifying because
28:46
because from the, from the point of view of the patient, their
28:50
drug of addiction is what gets them from a Monday to a Tuesday.
28:55
They may hate it. And this is where I get somewhat
28:57
exercised. Nobody, nobody wants that damn
29:01
drug. Whatever it is, whether it's
29:03
alcohol or or or or heroin, it doesn't matter.
29:07
It takes over their life and they hate it.
29:10
And yet at the same time, they are convinced they can't make it
29:14
through a day without it because they've often tried and they've
29:20
gone through hell. They've gotten to the other side
29:23
and within weeks, even after a tough, perhaps even self induced
29:28
detox, they find themselves back in the grip of the disease and
29:32
they're using again and they're and they realize where they come
29:35
to the conclusion that the only way they can deal with the shame
29:39
that they feel is to continue to use that drug of addiction.
29:44
So it's not just the idea that they're going to be going to a
29:48
weird place to get help. It's it's I I can't do this.
29:54
Yeah, it's like my arch enemy, my best friend, my lover, my,
29:57
you know, crutch everything on one this this drug, whatever it
30:01
is, it's. Both my lover and my and I hate
30:03
it. Yeah, yeah.
30:05
And it's and it's, it's vicious. It's cruel and unforgiving.
30:11
Well, back to shame and, and the word vicious, you know, was so
30:16
somebody's got some kind of shame from the past, whether
30:19
something they could control or couldn't, but there's something,
30:23
but then there's substances on top of it to quiet that shame,
30:29
let's say. And then by then this is where
30:32
that vicious cycle can start is their shame to cover up the
30:37
shame, their substances. And then then they act of
30:40
covering it up with drugs and alcohol.
30:43
More shame is kind of created. The only way to cover that up is
30:47
more substance. And so it's just this like
30:49
exponentially expanding spiral of shame.
30:54
Well, yeah. And if, if imagine if you're, if
30:57
you're a kid and, and whatever the trauma is tragically, let's
31:09
say that you're one of those kids who who get sexually
31:12
assaulted in school and, and, and he's not going to talk about
31:17
that. He's going to hide it and but
31:21
what that communicates to him internally is I wasn't
31:27
worthwhile enough to be kept safe.
31:30
My parents didn't love me enough to keep me safe even though they
31:34
didn't have anything to do with it and they would have done
31:37
anything to keep him safe. But what we all know is we can't
31:41
be with our kids 24/7 and some bad things can happen when
31:47
trauma happens, whatever time it is in your life, the internal
31:51
messages must be my fault. Somehow.
31:55
I've I deserved it. So the other side of that gets
31:59
communicated. I wasn't worth keeping safe.
32:02
I'm not worthwhile, I'm not important, I'm not good enough.
32:06
Those are the voices of shame until you take that first hit of
32:13
cocaine or you had that first slug of alcohol.
32:17
And if you've got the right brain chemistry, it is magic
32:22
that shame disappears. And for the first time you feel
32:26
whole. And that's the most wonderful
32:29
feeling in the world. And that's what tragically, all
32:34
people, I believe with this illness remember.
32:38
They remember that initial sense of, oh, I am OK.
32:45
Sadly, that leaves pretty quickly as they move toward
32:48
addictive illness. But the memory stays.
32:52
And so it becomes literally the drug of addiction, becomes their
32:56
way of coping not only with the initial shame, but now the
33:00
layers and layers and layers of shame on top of that associated
33:05
with the disease. Yeah.
33:07
Right. And that's the, you know,
33:08
sometimes it can be this sort of like little T trauma.
33:12
Yeah, that by the time the person hopefully get some help
33:15
has been covering it up. But you know, these layers you
33:18
talk about. Yeah, it's it's a vicious cycle.
33:23
So Becky and you tell me about how you kind of work together
33:29
and or independently at all if you do.
33:31
Well, we, we train together, as I say, she, she, she's a, a
33:37
family therapist as well as a, a substance abuse professional.
33:41
And we, we, we both do this modified interpersonal group
33:46
psychotherapy. We'll do, we'll, we'll train
33:48
that model for, for, for people, which is really powerful.
33:52
It, it focuses on, on connection and, and helping, helping people
33:58
realize that they're not alone in their own shame.
34:02
And, and again, it, it, it, it allows people to, to embrace
34:08
each other, not physically necessarily, but emotionally in
34:11
a way that begins to chip away at the shame.
34:15
Clinically, Becky sees patients. I see patients, when we deal
34:20
with families, we see them as a couple and, and we see a lot of
34:25
families and, and we find that just really meaningful because
34:31
as you know, it's not just the patient that suffers, it's the
34:36
whole family system. And if, if Beck was here, she'd
34:40
be saying, and often the family is even sicker than the person
34:45
who has the primary illness, you know, and, and it's because
34:48
they, they inherit the shame of the patient.
34:52
So they become ashamed, they start covering up, they start
34:55
hiding, they get kind of nutty. I mean, the whole system goes
34:59
crazy and, and, and So what we get to do as a couple is kind of
35:05
model that communication and, and, and work with the entire
35:10
family system to begin to challenge those messages of
35:15
shame. So we help them understand the
35:17
illness, but we also help them address some of the pain that's
35:23
already there. And it's incredibly rewarding
35:27
and, and, and we both thoroughly enjoy working together and
35:32
working with families because when the family gets better, the
35:36
patient gets better. When the patient gets better,
35:38
the family gets. It's just such a privilege to
35:41
watch that happen and you see it in your program.
35:43
Yeah, and I was about to say to me, it's such a beautiful thing
35:45
too, when the families, you know, sometimes we see it where
35:49
they're pretty, you know, motivated to to get better.
35:54
But it's so often, especially at first, the family of the of the
36:00
addict alcoholic or the person in treatment, they the attitude
36:05
is, wait a minute, like I'm not the one who was getting DU is
36:08
and wrecking the why do I have to do this?
36:11
And you know, once they can kind of get over that hump and start
36:13
to open up and realize that this is a gift for them too.
36:17
A lot of times, you know the family will be able to get find
36:20
this their own serenity and own recovery without having to, you
36:23
know, hit the rock bottom of an active addiction or alcoholism,
36:28
you know? Well, and as corny as it sounds,
36:32
the only thing I know that is more powerful than shame is
36:37
hope. I love that.
36:40
And that's what you guys offer. That's what we offer patients.
36:45
That's what a a offers is a is a is an Ave. out of the darkness.
36:50
And as again, as corny as it sounds into, into a, into a life
36:55
that it's exciting, that is alive, that is full of
37:01
possibility. And, and they get to encounter
37:06
wonder and awe again. And it's just, it's just one of
37:09
the it's to to help a family reconnect like that.
37:14
I mean, it's such a privilege as as a clinician.
37:17
So Becky and I feel just, I mean, when we are invited into
37:22
that pain, it's sad and painful, but we also know that we got it.
37:29
We got to go into that fire in order to help them begin to put
37:35
out the energy of shame and find that hope.
37:38
Yeah. Well, as you were talking about
37:40
how, you know, with the word hope that hope is more powerful
37:44
than shame, I was just thinking about how they're hope is
37:47
associated with with is the principle associated with Step
37:50
2. There's no, there's no step
37:52
associated with shame. And then the other thing you
37:55
said right after that is that there is a way out, which was
37:58
the original title of the big book Alcoholics Anonymous, but
38:01
until they realized there were too many other titles, but
38:03
that's what it is. Excuse me, It's a it's a way
38:05
out. Right.
38:06
And you know when it opens the door and when you think of the
38:10
first three steps of a A, those are the first three steps we all
38:14
have to take to get any help from a medical problem.
38:18
We first got to recognize we can't do it on our own, step
38:21
one. And, and our life is completely
38:24
out of control. Step 2 is I'm not going to go
38:28
see a physician if I'm absolutely convinced they can't
38:31
help me, right? So I've got to believe that
38:33
there's help out there and that this particular physician can
38:38
can actually do that. And then step three, I got to do
38:43
what that physician tells me to do, even though it's hard.
38:48
Those are the first three steps of a A So it's it's no, if
38:52
people would just look at it, they would realize that there's
38:56
that the approach into recovery is no different than any other
39:00
treatment process. It just, it just looks a little
39:05
bit different, but it's the same, it's the same dynamic.
39:09
Right. I mean, so much of life is like
39:10
that. I mean, I even think about it
39:12
like with with golf, it's like if I go to take a lesson, you
39:15
know, I am, I'm asking for help, which is hard, but you know, I
39:20
mean, and I'm in this case paying somebody for help, but
39:22
then what good is any of that if I don't receive the help and
39:26
accept the help? Yeah, if you keep doing it the
39:29
way you've been doing when you came in.
39:31
I, I, I'm not a golfer. I'm, I, I attempt.
39:33
It's Becky is a real tennis player.
39:36
She actually is, is good, but but I'm a hacker.
39:39
But I I try and every time I take a lesson if I really will
39:44
not only do what the the pro told me, but then practice it.
39:48
Exactly. I actually get better.
39:51
It's kind of exciting. Well, exactly.
39:52
And I'm sure you can attest this you, you go take a lesson, you
39:56
start doing what the guy or woman, you know the pro told you
39:58
to do. And then he goes away or she
40:01
goes away and then hitting some bad shots.
40:04
And you were. You're so tempting to go back to
40:07
our old ways, which we know isn't just right, but we know it
40:10
works. And but we was just a way to get
40:12
by. And but then, yeah, exactly.
40:15
Well, we are so lucky to have you and Becky in our community.
40:22
Will you tell us and tell our listeners and our viewers, this
40:27
is the book. I'll show it again beyond shame.
40:29
But how do how do people get in touch with you and Becky?
40:32
Well, I mean, we've got a website if you go to either Jeff
40:36
Georgi and Associates or Georgi Educational and Counseling
40:40
Services, that's our website. You can get with us through
40:44
through that. We've got a wonderful practice
40:48
manager, Jill Collins and and her her telephone number is
40:52
accessible through those those websites and and people can we
40:57
are we, we see patients, we see families.
41:01
We are still committed to that clinical side of things.
41:05
And again, we've also got a broader vision of hoping to do
41:09
what we did in South Carolina and bring some of that training
41:13
up to North Carolina because for those, those eight years, we
41:17
pretty much disappeared from North Carolina.
41:20
We were living here and we were seeing patients here, but we
41:24
were traveling, we were commuting back and forth to
41:26
South Carolina. So in a lot of ways, we we fell
41:30
off the map. And so I guess one thing and why
41:33
I so feel privileged to, to, to be doing this kind of thing with
41:36
you, it, it's, it's kind of our way of announcing ourselves back
41:41
to North Carolina. Hey, guys, we, we're, we're
41:43
here, we're back, we're back, we're back.
41:45
And and and you know, both, you know, Becky doesn't age, but but
41:52
I've, I'm putting on a few years and, but I still, I, I don't
41:58
know anything more exciting than recovery.
42:01
I hear you. I agree.
42:04
I completely agree. Well, let's leave it there.
42:06
That sounds like a good place to stay.
42:08
Yeah, thank you so much for. Being here.
42:10
Oh, you're welcome. Thank you, B.
42:12
Yes, Sir. If you liked what you heard
42:13
today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
42:19
visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
42:22
Thank you.