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Anna McKenzie: Marketing Basics for Writers · The Daily Writer

• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the weekend edition of the Daily Writer.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Each weekday, we bring you a short lesson that helps you live out the four practices of a great writer: creativity, consistency, courage, and connection.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Here on the weekend edition, we take a deeper dive into those topics through conversations with writers and teaching that helps us apply what we're learning.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: For more, you can visit us at dailywriterlife.com.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the more time you spend around writers, the more you see certain themes crop up again and again.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: One of those themes is the nearly universal feeling that marketing is a necessary evil that writers have to endure just long enough to pay the bills so they can get back to their creative work.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: Am I right?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_00: Or am I right?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm thrilled to have a guest today who is here to give us a whole different perspective on marketing.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Her name is Anna McKenzie, and she's a professional copywriter as well as the owner of Creative Demand LLC.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: As a content marketer and copywriter, Anna has over a decade of experience in building content production systems, developing strategic marketing plans, and executing sales campaigns.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: She's written sales copy for the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and best-selling authors.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: She's worked with national and global brands.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: And she's also helped business owners sell millions of dollars worth of products online.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: She's also written a fantastic new book called Mission Market Message: The Actionable Guide to Marketing for Small Business Owners.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I've got to tell you, this is a great book that gives you a clear framework for marketing.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in this conversation, Anna helps us understand the basics of marketing, why we need marketing as writers, and how we can think like business owners.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: If you make any money with your writing or you intend to, even if it's only just book sales, this conversation will be very, very helpful.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: I know it was for me.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get right to the conversation with Anna McKenzie.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Anna, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: It is so much fun to have you here, and I'm glad that we are able to have this conversation about marketing and all kinds of cool stuff.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, hey, Kent.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_03: Good to be here.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I got to give a shout out to my good buddy Jim Woods, who connected us.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Jim is an awesome guy who I think knows every human being on planet Earth.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: Seemingly really does.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I don't know how he manages to do that, but uh, I gotta thank Jim for connecting us.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I love your new book called Mission Market Message: The Actionable Guide to Marketing for Small Business Owners.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So that's my first thing that I want to bring up is you did a really, really stellar job with this book.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: So really, really nicely done.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I really appreciate it.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_03: I'm glad you picked up a copy.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I did, and I love it because you make everything so clear in this book.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what I really like about it, is because a lot of marketing books I feel like are complicated for those of us who don't have a natural marketing mind.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you just laid out so clearly and so concisely.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, this is the book I've been looking for my whole life about marketing.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, really, really great job.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, thank you.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, yeah, I really wanted it to be very practical.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of marketing books end up being sort of a bucket of ideas.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_03: There's like a lot of things to inspire you, but at the end of the day, you're like, how do I put this into practice?
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_03: And so I wanted to make sure that, you know, especially the folks that I run into who I work with, they are looking for, you know, really straightforward frameworks.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm like, I I want to give a I want to be able to write a resource that people can take and say, okay, I learned this and now I'm gonna put it into practice right now.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_03: So I want to make sure it was framed.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really digestible, really easy to say, okay, I'm gonna do this right now.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, you absolutely accomplished that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And not only that, so I love book layouts and book cover and graphics and all that stuff.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if I recall correctly, you did the layout for your book yourself.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Is that right?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: I did.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_03: I did that in uh in design.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really looks nice.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know how it is.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, both of us, we work with a lot of writers and authors and so forth.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so many books, like you open them up and you just go, Oh, I was really excited until I saw that you were using Times New Roman 12-point font.
• 4:36
  unknown: Right.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: My opinion of you just plummeted.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: No, I was gonna say I'm just kidding, but I'm sort of not kidding in a way.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_03: Um, sounds really judgmental, I know, but no, no, formatting really has it has a huge effect on how you perceive the book and how you digest the content.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_03: So it's really important for those elements to, you know, for you to jive with the font, you know, in the spacing.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_03: It's like if it's too crowded or it's too small, or you can't really visualize uh the information.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: It's a it's a big deal, I feel like.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_03: And I I had no, I didn't really have a good conception of what it would be like to lay out my entire book in InDesign because I thought, oh, you know, I've worked in InDesign before.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: Like how hard could it be?
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_03: Um, it is pretty hard, actually, but um, but it was it was well worth it.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: I I felt like I had a good amount of control over the process and being able to frame things the way that I wanted to and add images the way that I wanted to, but it is not for everyone, I would say that.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've I looked at it for five minutes one time and I was like, um, I'm gonna shut the door and I'm gonna back away from this because I have no conception how this works.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_00: So just give me Scrivener and Microsoft Word or Google Docs, and I'm happy and I'll just outsource that to somebody else.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I'm I'm really grateful for uh Canva, which is it's so much easier to use than tools like InDesign.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, because InDesign is really more, it's there's a ton of function to it, which it's you know really versatile that way, which is great.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um but for you know smaller projects and things like Canva is really good for just being able to design out, you know, PDFs or ebooks or things like that.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_03: And and Jim, Jim has some tools and he knows that where you can get an ebook really quickly and um that it formats for you.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_03: So there's plenty of those tools out there as well.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now I do want to take, I feel like I'm going off on the side trail, but when I'm talking to people like you who have a lot of expertise with this kind of area, I sort of feel like this is my big shot to get my questions answered, you know.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So one question that I I'm super curious about.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is a total book nerd question, um, but it's my podcast, so I'm giving myself permission to do that.
• 6:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So but I'm legitimately curious about this.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: So I I run a membership community called the Daily Writer community.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And last week we had an interesting conversation about uh with nonfiction books, block paragraphs versus indented paragraphs.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I noticed that you have block paragraphs in your book, and I'm curious if you if you can share with us the thought process behind using those versus indented paragraphs, because I I can't decide even for my own books, like what should I use?
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: When is it appropriate to use one or the other?
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I know that you think about things very deeply and that nothing is an accident in this book.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious if you can walk us through that decision.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_03: So um I think when I started doing writing online probably 10 years ago, it just the block paragraph was what everybody did.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that it was a spacing issue.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_03: It was just about, you know, the layout of the page and making sure that all the graphic elements could have had space to breathe.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_03: And you just didn't have, you know, the luxury of putting in the indent, you know, and kind of blocking it all together.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_03: It's it was just a matter of getting those spaces in.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_03: And so so that's the format that I got used to.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_03: And especially um, I'm a big email marketer, and so I'm used to writing lots of emails, and that's how that's how you write emails is you just do, you know, line after line, you know, space after space, you don't use any indentations.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I'm used to seeing indentations uh in fiction, you know, that's kind of the more the you know narrative form, I feel like, where you're kind of you can invest in the story, but when you have the limited time and space um of catching someone's attention online, then you are using block paragraphs because you want it to be short and digestible and easy to understand and concise.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that I just um translated that to the book because I wanted it to kind of to have the rhythm of online writing and just you can kind of move through it, you can scan it.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I don't think there's anything wrong with uh indenting and using kind of the regular narrative form paragraphs, but um I just love the the format of online content being able to be more scannable because it's got those spaces in it.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that makes total sense.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I wonder if if things are not changing in that regard because I'm seeing more and more, I mean, people have been doing this in in books for a long time, I guess, but I'm seeing more and more about all the time.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so I wonder if if it's not shifting to where really like most nonfiction books will be using that block paragraph type of format.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think it's a good, it's a good question.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_03: I think it is kind of trending that way, to be honest.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I guess we'll have to see, but um, you know, like I said, I mean, I think that's how people are getting used to reading now.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: A lot of the reading is happening on screens, um, and people need space, you know, to kind of see all the content.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so, um, and like I said, with emails, I mean, you know, one of my big, you know, bread and butter products is is email.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_03: And I could not even get out the first draft of this book without pretending like I was writing emails.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_03: It was very, yeah, that was kind of the way that I tricked myself into writing chapters because I had to be able to break it down into, you know, it's like, let me say one thing versus, you know, the 50 things I want to say.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and because an email has to have one key message, you know.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so what I did was is I basically pretended like I was writing an email about a key principle and then went back and rewrote it, added stories, added facts, and kind of built it out from there.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_03: But it was a sort of a trick to get myself into getting the words down on the page.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm, that is that is genius.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: If you see me looking down, I'm taking a lot of notes because that is a great way to get writing done is just pretend you're writing an email.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: I had never heard that before.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_03: I had never tried it before.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_03: I thought this is the only way that I can do it.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_03: This is the way that I'm used to writing.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_03: And I think probably it's like, you know, if you're if you're used to writing blog posts or you have kind of a, you know, something where you just kick into gear, I think trying using that format instead of trying to say, okay, now I'm gonna squeeze myself into this chapter format and it has to be X, Y, and Z.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I just was like, I need to get this material down, and that was the only way I could think of to get it down.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's genius.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_00: That's really, really genius.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna totally steal that.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_03: Please do.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's really cool.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's dive into the book.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, sorry to take those little nerdy detours, but uh this is a podcast for writers, so I just kind of assume anybody but anybody who's listening is self-identifying as a nerd.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um nerds basically rule the world anyway, so I'm okay with that.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_02: They do.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So your book is all about marketing.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, maybe it would it would be helpful up front to define a couple of key terms marketing and sales.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: These are two terms that a lot of writers and authors tend to, when we hear those terms, we turn around and we run the other way because so many writers identify as creative types or creatives.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: And we hear marketing and sales and related terms, and we just go, Oh, I don't want to be a marketer.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to, I'm not in sales, I just want to write and be creative.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: So break this down for us a little bit if you can.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_00: Help us to understand why, what are these things all about and why we should care about these concepts.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, marketing is really about helping people discover your products and services.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of that happens through creating relationships because people want to do business with other people that they know and like.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, I think that's kind of a key function of marketing.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_03: And then it should lead to sales.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_03: Good marketing should lead to sales, which is obviously the transaction.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and sales is really more the mechanics of, you know, actually matching people with the products and services that would benefit them specifically.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: So they are very related, they should connect.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I think one of the reasons why, you know, marketing can be scary to people or intimidating to writers, especially, is because it feels it can feel really self-promotional.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: It could feel like you are, you have to be somebody else or sound like somebody more charismatic than you are in order to sell something.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_03: And um, nobody wants to be sold, you know, nobody wants to be taken advantage of or pay more for something.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think the reality is that people really want to, you know, find solutions to their problems.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think that if you are focused on helping people instead of, you know, thinking, okay, this is about me, it's actually about the people that you're talking to, the people who could benefit from what you have to offer.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_03: And so if you kind of switch gears in your mind and your perspective and you say, okay, I want to really help people who are having a problem, then I think it's a lot easier and it's a lot more natural, especially when you go back to let me create relationships with people instead of, hey, just, you know, pay for this or you know, you need to buy this.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think it's it's about sharing values and saying, hey, I care about the things that you care about.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, let me solve this problem for you.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: So if there are people listening who are writing fiction, I want to actually come back to that for a second.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: So anybody writing nonfiction is kind of by definition solving a problem.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's really why nonfiction exists, to help solve a problem or I guess narrative nonfiction doesn't really fall in that category, but but most people writing nonfiction are addressing a problem or teaching something in some way, shape, or form.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: But for people who are writing fiction, is there is there a way for them to also frame what they do as solving a problem?
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: So what what problem are storytellers solving in terms of marketing?
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so and I think this is a common question because, you know, it's like you said, it doesn't feel like an actual problem that you're solving.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_03: You're kind of like, well, you know, I'm entertaining people, you know, how it's not really a problem.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_03: But the entertainment and experience cohort is really significant.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, it has the ability to transport us to different places and give us new perspective.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think as a fiction writer and as a storyteller, you have to kind of lean into that adventure element and be able to say, hey, this is going to offer you something really fun and unique and exciting that you can't experience anywhere else.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's um, it's like with uh with you know, theaters, movie theaters.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, this is the only place where you are going to pay, you know,$20 to go in somewhere, sit down for two hours and come out with nothing.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_03: You know, and it's kind of like you pay for the experience, and that's what happens with fiction too.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that there's um there's an angle for that.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_03: There's a way where you can connect with people and be like, oh, I have a great story to tell you.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna change your mind, it's gonna change your thoughts, you're gonna have fun, you're gonna enjoy it.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_03: And people really want that.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: That's a that's a solution for them.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that what really what Disney does?
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Disney doesn't really Disney is not coming to unclog your plumbing.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they're not coming to fix your tax problems or um, they're not coming to cut your lawn.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um they're really uh kind of giving you meaning.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're transporting you their storytellers.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe they're fixing the biggest problem of all, which is helping people to understand a larger narrative and to get meaning in their lives and to be part of a tribe of people who like this or that or or whatever.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe sometimes we really downplay the value that we have as storytellers.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think Disney, Disney knows that they sell something intangible, which is that adventure element.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_03: They know they're not selling roller coaster rides, they're not selling, you know, a bunch of toys and stuff you can buy at the gift shop.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_03: They're selling the an experience, they're selling the magic of Disney, and people love that.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's that's very, very powerful.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's extraordinarily powerful.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so let's break down some of the concepts that you talk about in the book.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: So literally the, and I I love the simplicity, the uh deceptive simplicity because this is it's easy for me to look at this and go, wow, this is so clear-cut, but I know it's not easy to develop a whole book.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: And two, it's not easy to make simple things so simple.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So the title is mission, market, message, and the book is literally broken down into those three components.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk for a second about each of these.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or rather, I'm gonna ask, and I'll ask you to share because you're the expert here.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so mission is what problem that you solve.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: What if what if a writer doesn't know what problem they solve?
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: How do we arrive at some clarity about what problem we're actually solving for people as writers?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, um, well, and you know, mission really it answers the question, you know, what am I trying to do?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_03: What am I setting out to do?
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_03: And what problem you solve is is one element out of, I say that there's seven.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_03: I think there's seven elements that make up a mission.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so what problem you solve is is really important just because you need to understand how people are going to use your solution and what benefits it's going to have for them.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_03: And so I think, you know, as writers understanding uh the different applications that your writing may be used for, if you are writing for, you know, a company that needs their website redone, I mean, that's that's a huge um piece for them just because it's it's their online storefront, you know.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_03: And so instead of thinking like, oh, sure, you know, the problem that I solve is, you know, I provide content to clients, right?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_03: You're thinking, no, I provide these specific deliverables so that these companies can get their specific goals met.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it's, you know, part of your mission needs to be dialing into, you know, how is this going to be used specifically by these companies so that they can benefit from what I'm providing.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a big part of the sales process too, isn't it?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Where let's say if somebody's listening and they are a freelance writer who writes blog posts.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe they are used to selling their services as, hey, I can write blog posts for you.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can do X number of blog posts a month for whatever amount.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: But really, people are not buying blog posts.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Are they that they're really buying the result that those blog posts help help them achieve whether it's more sales, so sometimes it's something it's more intangible, like they want credibility or they want increased authority in their niche or or whatever it is.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, if they want to be found by people using search engines, you know, if they want to be um, you know, credibility signals, like you said, um, just being able to show, you know, we're we're the folks that you want to do business with and having that consistency.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think there are a ton of things that, you know, a specific blog post or multiple blog posts can do for an organization that's looking to, you know, assure their customers, you know, we're safe to do business with, we're the kind of people you can trust, and being able to reiterate their values and communicate those so that their marketing works.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's brilliant.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I really love that.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so many writers are intimidated by marketing and sales, but really this is this is really what it comes down to, isn't it?
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: You're just you're thinking about the needs of of the people that you're serving and you're trying to meet those needs with with what you're doing.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: It really is pretty simple, I guess, when it comes down to it.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, and being really specific, I think when you are really focused on your clients or customers' problems, they notice and they care, they see your vigilance and they absolutely want to do business with you.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_03: So it's being, you know, being an advocate basically for your clients.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, I want to help you get the results that you want, you know, and becoming a partner with them, um, much less than about just the transaction of like, I'm gonna sell this to you.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_03: It's like, let me let me partner with you so that you can get your goals achieved and we can do that together.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_03: I can make sure that you have what you need.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_03: I like to ask people, instead of like, you know, hey, you know, what what writing is available?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_03: Like, do you have anything, you know, that I can do?
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_03: I say, what can I take care of for you?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_03: Because that's really what if a marketing manager or somebody who's, you know, business owner, they're thinking, oh, who can take care of this for me?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: And so I'm like, I want to make sure that they know I'm gonna take care of this for you, I'm gonna get it done.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's gonna be quality work, it's gonna be on time, and you're gonna be able to meet your goals.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: I see that is such a key thing that I think most business owners really, really care about.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's the idea of you're easy to work with, you're looking out for them, you deliver on time, uh, those kinds of things.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: How many times of all the people that you've worked with, how many times have people typically asked to see writing samples?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh in other words, They care more about the words than they do about the other things.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: My guess is probably not that often, correct?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_03: It really isn't that often, to be honest.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: I think that that happens sometimes.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: But for the most part, once we get into a conversation and I start asking them questions about their brand and their business and what do you need and, you know, and just basically assuring them, yes, you know, I've I've done these things before, I can take care of it for you.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_03: It just happens.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes people don't even need to see, you know, my resume or writing samples or anything because they feel like I've asked enough questions, I'm interested enough, I have the experience, and they're like, okay, go for it.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I want to make it as easy as possible for them to say yes.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I want them to know that I'm going to make their job easier.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_00: That is really, really critical.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_00: That is such a critical thing.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it goes back back in many ways to what you alluded to earlier in the conversation, which is people do business with those they know, like, and trust.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the saying.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_00: I may have those mixed up, but that's the essence of it.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_00: And whenever people feel like you have their best interest in mind and you're easy to work with, you're a pleasant person.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Really that's all not all they care about, but that's the majority of what they care about.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: They just assume if you're doing this as a business, you've done it before, that you can write the correct words.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can write the sales copy or write the book or whatever it is that we do as an actual service.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: So that feels like a component that is oftentimes missing with writers because writers do tend to be a little more introverted.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes we've all known socially awkward writers.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: Not that I've ever been socially awkward, of course.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_03: Of course not.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: Never, never.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm so glad that you have written this book to help us understand these concepts because they are so vital just in our relationships and with client work and so forth.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I mean, I think it's um, I think writers are actually a really great fit for marketing just because we are storytellers and we are people who can help our customers and clients imagine what it would be like to have a solution and to make it easier for them.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so there are lots of people out there who um, you know, they can't write, they can't focus on that.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_03: That's just not their thing.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I think that it's it's a natural fit, to be honest, um, as long as you can step away from, you know, the work that you do, which it does require that because it's very personal.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_03: Writing is a very personal thing.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_03: And so being able to step back from it and go, what would someone else really want to see um, you know, from me and what would they really benefit from in this?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_03: And then providing that extra element of service, you know, and being able and being timely and being having quality writing, I think really helps you stand out.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like if somebody has, you know, everybody's got their person that they love to work with, that they probably would never call a salesperson.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_03: They'd say, you have to talk to my car guy, you know, you have to talk to my realtor.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then nobody minds, you know, like passing those names around because these are the people you want to do business with.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_03: And they're not talking about sales or marketing.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_03: It's not coming into their mind.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_03: It's just like, yeah, I have a relationship with this person who can provide these solutions, and I want you to have that as well.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: In a way, isn't it?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: I was having a conversation with somebody recently.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: We were talking about how, in a way, every job is really the same thing.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like we have the nuances and we have the skills about what we do.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: You have a plumber, you have an attorney, you have a tax prepayer, you have uh a ghostwriter or a copywriter or an auto mechanic or whatever.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: But really, we all do the same thing.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: We take care of people's needs and we we try to to have a lot of forethought and and think about we try to anticipate what do they need and how can we really serve them well.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, really, every job is kind of like the same in a way, isn't it?
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_03: It is, yeah.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, as long as we're focused on solving problems, you know, and providing solutions for other people, it really is the same.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's that is a relief, hopefully, to um anybody who's listening who's like thinking about a career pivot because so many times we put all this pressure on ourselves about what should I do for a job or a career, what direction should I go?
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: And in some sense, it doesn't, it doesn't matter as much as we think it does because you're gonna if you keep asking those questions, you're gonna wind up in the right place.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: But as long as you're solving problems and helping people, that's really what it comes down to, despite whatever your particular industry is.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, and I think a lot of people have actually done marketing, you know, without realizing it, you know, without uh calling it marketing.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_03: And I think that, you know, it helps to kind of to uh you know get that term out of your mind, actually.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_03: You you naturally create relationships, you naturally, you know, want to connect with people.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's that's marketing.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_03: That's what it looks like.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_03: And so just being able to say, yeah, okay, like I'd love to connect with you and maybe we can help each other, you know, um, and there may be some business uh that you do, but as long as it's it's focused on helping people and not thinking, okay, I'm gonna, you know, now I have to promote myself, now I have to bring this attention on me, you know, it's it's really about putting a solution out into the world or saying, I have this service that can really get you from point A to point B, which I think is really important.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: So we've talked a little bit about mission.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious about this marketing, I'm sorry, the market portion of your book.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, market is all about figuring out what type of person you're serving, your target market, your avatar.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's various terms I guess we could put on it.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: But if you can walk us through this process a little bit of how do we figure out what our target market should be if we don't already know what that is.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_03: So a target market is just the subset of people who you think are going to be interested in your product or service based on their shared characteristics or interests.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, their demographics, their age, their gender, their income level, you know, what they're interested in.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_03: And you kind of have this picture of a group of people that you think um would care about what you have to offer.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_03: So um you can get that uh several different ways.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_03: You can get it from studying your competitors, looking at um, you know, here's some folks who are already doing the type of work that I want to do, and here's the group of people that they are marketing to, right?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_03: Or you may even notice a group of people that they're not marketing to that they need to be marketing to.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um you can do that.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_03: So you can do that through competitor analysis, you can do it through if you already have an audience, you can survey your audience and ask them to tell them a little, tell you a little bit more about themselves, and you'll find, you know, kind of just okay, here's what's in common with this group of people that I'm talking to.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_03: So, so I think, and you can do it through market research, but I think there's, you know, lots of ways, whether you have an audience or don't, to be able to kind of study, you know, okay, what are my competitors doing?
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_03: Who's out there, and kind of get a picture of um the people who might be interested.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, you can you can probably guess and say, you know, if you have a time management course, you know, that you're wanting to sell, for instance, you could probably guess, okay, you know, maybe professionals who have just been promoted, you know, maybe they want to know how to manage their schedules a little bit more.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so I think it helps to start out, you know, just kind of jotting out, okay, this is who I who I might be able to help, right?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and then to look at your competitors and see, um, and then to also ask people um that you think would be in your target market or ask people who are in your audience and already paying attention to you and see what kind of characteristics they have.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's genius.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's genius.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: I really loved the idea of looking at your competitors because that's that's almost like market validation in a way, isn't it?
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where you're seeing somebody's already doing this, and there's probably room for one more person to do this in this nature of this industry.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: So let me kind of borrow some ideas of what they're doing because they've already done all the research.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_03: There is really no need to reinvent the wheel on some of that.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_03: And two, I think it helps to understand what's already being said and how things are already being marketed so that you can find uh what would make you different, um, so that you can reach uh maybe another subset of people that your competitors aren't reaching.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_03: So I think it helps to really study, okay, you know, here's here's who's in my industry and this is what they're saying and doing and who they're talking to.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe I can, you know, kind of mimic that, but also put my unique spin on it and reach another niche group of people kind of within that group or outside of that group, or even if it's the same group, because honestly, there's a there tends to be, you know, pretty wide target markets.
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_03: There's a lot of room uh for people to do business.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_03: So there's very few, I think, industries where the market is just absolutely cornered.
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there may be saturated markets, but I think there's a lot of room, uh, especially within niche markets.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So what so in other words, this may not be a good time to like try and build a streaming service.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably one.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_03: You may need a lot of money to build a streaming service.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: You might need like a million dollars or something.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so that would be a high barrier industry for sure.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I think that, you know, I mean, there's things like selling coffee, for instance.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you can do it, but there's a lot of coffee companies out there, and you need to find a really specific angle and a really specific group of people who want something in particular.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so I think it matters what your differentiators are.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: I think it matters what, you know, kind of transformation you're selling to attract the people that you want to reach.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: It could be just a set of local people, right?
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: You don't have to sell to everybody, you know.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes we try to sell to the the entire world.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and you just need to focus on, you know, kind of smaller groups, uh, to be honest.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_00: Now let me ask before I move on to this last part of the message, uh, I want to ask you about the five core transformations in just a second.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm curious about this coffee thing because something from a marketing perspective that has been really, really fascinating to me is the idea of I I don't even know what you call.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm showing my complete ignorance about coffee here.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: But there's all these places that have kind of their own unique brand of coffee.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's like it's kind of like homegrown or it's I don't even know what you call it.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm really curious about this because as somebody who's not super into coffee, like it all tastes the same to me.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: It really, really does.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm but I'm really fascinated by this because from a marketing standpoint, how if I were going to start a coffee, a coffee thing, um and I'm sourcing beans from like the same places in the world as everybody else does, because I can't grow them here in Missouri, you know, probably right.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: How what are some some ways that that all these different coffee places are helping their coffee to stand out marketing wise?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if basically the product is essentially the same with maybe some very, very small variances, I'm sure I'm going to get some really horrible feedback from my comments about this.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: All the coffee people are like, oh, it's all different, it's all different.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I noticed that the the difference to me seems to be the way that they market, the way that they talk about their coffee, the language they use, the the packaging I know is a really critical part of that.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: So as a marketing person, do you have any thoughts on how you would stand out in a super crowded market like coffee?
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, I think there are a number of different ways uh that you can stand out.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_03: But I think, you know, functionally it's gonna matter what do your consumers care about?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_03: What does your target market care about?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: So if they care about that you have fair trade organic beans that were roasted today that have recyclable packaging, you know, and I can get it on my doorstep tomorrow.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: You know, there's quite a few, you know, things that narrow me down from the corner store, right?
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_03: So so it just depends on, you know, um, and I told a story in the book.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_03: There's a company called Nut Pods, um, that basically it was a startup, it's a creamer.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_03: And um, one of the things that the CEO was told by one of her mentors was, you know, features can be duplicated.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_03: You know, somebody can sell the exact same product that you're selling, right?
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_03: So what you have to do is you have to be extremely conscious and into solving the problems your consumers uh want solved and the things that they care about.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_03: So, you know, nutpods, for instance, is very aware that their customers do not want products with chemical sounding names in their creamer.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_03: And so they had they take a specific effort to make sure that it's very simple, that their flavors are very good, that everything kind of dissolves the way it's supposed to dissolve, that it's low in sugar.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_03: That's another kind of big trend that they've capitalized on.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_03: And so they took off.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_03: And a lot of the big companies that have been cornering the creamer market, you know, um, really have been struggling to catch up with them.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And so it just became, you know, this brand that what shared values with the people who, you know, wanted low sugar and they wanted something that was more natural.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so that became their preferred brand.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_03: This is who I trust, and now I'm gonna buy this, right?
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_03: So there's there's lots of different elements, you know, even if you have for coffee, for instance, you know, I mean, you can have different flavors.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: I personally I like coffee.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_03: I can't taste all the flavors, the, you know, honey or flowers or whatever they say is in, you know, different varieties of coffee.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_03: And like I don't taste the essence of that.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: But um, you know, I think it matters the way you serve it, you know, um, I think it matters what cause your br your brand has, you know, if you're part of something, can people participate with you?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_03: Are you doing fun things?
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_03: Are you doing things that matter, you know, and affecting the world or that are changing, you know, farming for coffee?
• 36:09
  SPEAKER_03: Those are the things that people are caring about now.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that there's a position that you can take, depending on the folks that you're talking to, that you can say, you know, this is this is coffee that people are going to prefer.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_03: They're going to reach for mine before they, you know, just go down the street to Starbucks.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: That is fascinating.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: It just seems like with coffee, there's so much, so much of that market seems more much more driven by storytelling than the product itself, which is really, really interesting.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_03: So people have gotten a very artisanal um perspective on coffee now and letting that, you know, as chefs would say, letting that ingredient speak for itself, you know, and being able to say, you know, this is, and and it goes back to the natural, you know, trend too.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_03: So um, so I think that there's just there, I think there's just a lot of room there, depending on, you know, the story that you tell about where your beans come from.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: People really feel invested in that.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_03: They feel like that they can connect to it and they want to be part of it.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: So I think that that has to do with, you know, building out your mission too, is you're inviting people to be part of something with you and you're inviting them to be engaged and they're going to remember the story uh versus you know, just okay, well, I I bought this, you know, at Starbucks, or I can help these farmers in in Uganda, right?
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_03: There's some there's some differences there and things that you remember and things that you care about.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_03: So helping people care, I think.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's really, really fascinating.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's another book idea right there.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I just like digging into the marketing stuff around coffee, I think is really, really fascinating.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_00: But I need to widen this down because I want to respect your time.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: I do want to ask briefly about the message part of this, which I know is a massive part of the book.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I encourage people to grab this book ASAP because it's gonna solve basically all of your marketing problems, uh, which is so great.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um talk a little bit, if you can, about the five core transformations that you share in the message part of the book.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: I found this section really, really interesting.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm gonna turn there now.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: And these five core transformations that you talk about are lifestyle, adventure, connection, freedom, and safety.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is really, really fascinating.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you just describe all of human, what motivates human behavior right there.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, I think um so this was really uh this was a really big piece um for me, just because as a copywriter, I have worked with a lot of businesses and you're trying to identify that that main benefit or the transformation, you know, as it's as it's called.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: So I had listed out all these different things, you know, everything from, you know, saves you money to, you know, change the world.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_03: And what came of that was, you know, kind of these five groupings, they all seem to fit under these five categories.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: Um and so I felt like it was important to kind of um to be able to break those down because it is very hard to figure out what do people really want, what what matters to them the most?
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so um with these transformations, you know, something like lifestyle uh is really about, you know, products and services say something about us as people.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_03: And so a lifestyle brand, a lot of clothing brands are lifestyle brands, even some food brands are lifestyle brands, because what we wear and how we look projects certain image about us to other people.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_03: And so everything from the car you drive to the shoes you wear to the food you eat, you say this is I'm this type of person.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_03: And that's those are the trappings that this type of person has.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so when you are marketing um a lifestyle transformation, you could be marketing sunglasses that you, you know, these big brands will market sunglasses.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_03: Let's say it's$500.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_03: Well, the problem that's being solved is not protecting your eyes, it's protecting your image.
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_03: And so that I think is the, you know, when you move into lifestyle transformation, that's what people are wanting.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_03: They want the trappings.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, we talked about adventure before, uh, which is what Disney sells.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um adventure is anything experiential.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_03: It's anything that's really um that's unique, that helps you enjoy life more.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_03: It's very kind of ethereal.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_03: It's kind of, you know, I want to really um, you know, enjoy uh the way that I'm living.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_03: I want to have a unique experience.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so that's the adventure um thing.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_03: So that happens a lot with travel brands, um uh food brands as well.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_03: Um anything, you know, from the escape game to a football game.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um so I saw a commercial the other day that I think it was a townhouse pita cracker, and it they were pushing the transfer uh adventure transformation angle.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: They were like, look at all the stuff you can put on this cracker.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_03: It is going to take you places with all the flavors.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_03: And it was really funny because I thought they're using this to like, you know, this is a cracker that can transport you to another place, you know.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's marketing people.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_03: I know, I know.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_03: They were thinking it through.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_03: They're like, we want the adventurers, we want the explorers who really don't want an ordinary cracker, you know.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so uh, so that's you know, adventure and then uh connection.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_03: Obviously, everybody wants to belong.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_03: We want to be part of groups, we want to be part of certain groups.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_03: So you might buy a bike um because not because you enjoy that recreation or not because you want to have a certain level of fitness, but because all your friends have bikes, you know.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_03: So the benefit is you get to ride with your friends.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_03: And so the connection pieces you know can be really strong, is making you, you know, feel involved or feel like you belong to a certain group of people.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_03: So that's you know, masterminds or you know, certifications, anything that's like I I belong to this group.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then freedom, freedom is uh anything that saves you time or money is probably a freedom transformation brand.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_03: So um we want freedom to do things as much as we want freedom from doing other things.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, so you want to be more productive so that you can do whatever you want with your time.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I feel like Walmart is a great, uh they use uh the freedom transformation and they break it down, you know, really well with their slogan, which is save money, live better.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_03: You know, this is I'm gonna save money and it's gonna help me live better.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_03: I have a measurable thing that's saving money.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_03: I know how much I saved on my last Walmart trip, and it's gonna help me live better because I have the things I need and I still have money left over to do whatever I want.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's a freedom brand.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_03: Um and then safety, safety could be called, you know, freedom from risk, but I feel like it deserves its own category because you're preventing things from happening.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_03: So safety is, you know, you want to get leaf filter so that you are not standing up on a ladder, you know, as an elderly person and falling over and getting hurt.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_03: That's what the safety transformation is.
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_03: Is we're gonna take care of this for you so that you don't get hurt.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_03: Same thing with um things like pest control.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_03: I think there was a an orchid commercial long ago where you know the door gets doorbell gets rung, there's a giant cockroach at the door, he wants to come in, the orchan man is standing there and he's like, No way, you know, you're not coming in here.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_03: It's keeping you from the infestation, right?
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_03: It's keeping you safe.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_03: So these transformations are really about.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: You know, getting to that end result, that core, you know, this is my strongest desire.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_03: And then being able to translate that in terms that you can quantify.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_03: It's like you can measure that result.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_03: And then also that kind of conceptual idea of, you know, this just makes things better.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_03: I just feel better because I have this.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_03: So that I feel like the these are essential components of creating that message.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like you can't create the message unless your mission and your market are clear.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_03: So your mission says, you know, I know what I'm trying to do.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_03: Your market says, I know who I'm talking to.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_03: Your message is, I know what I'm trying to say.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_03: And those I feel like are the key pieces of really formulating your marketing and being able to really connect with people.
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: And this is this is really great stuff.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: That could be a whole book in itself, truly, just those five things in a way that you could put those into practice within your marketing.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_03: I'll think about it.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: So no, seriously, like this this is really, really powerful stuff because it gets to the core of what we really want as human beings and the things that motivate us and drive us.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so before we wrap this up, can you share a little bit about your writing business starter kit?
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_00: This is something really, really cool that you're planning.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: I would love for people to hear about this.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, absolutely.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_03: So um the writing business starter kit is a digital course.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and it includes training videos and templates basically to help you start running your own writing business.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_03: There are a lot of people who want to make a full-time business out of writing.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_03: They want to make a decent living out of just writing.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_03: And I feel like this is basically the, you know, everything you need to get started.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's, you know, everything from, okay, how do I, you know, what do I charge?
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: How do I find clients to, you know, here's how you write the deliverables that business owners are looking for.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and templates are included and walkthroughs with those templates.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_03: And so this is this is the course that I wish that I would have had when I graduated from school and just thought that I was going to be the great American novelist and just fell flat on my face.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think that, and I have written a novel, which, you know, I still, I still want to be a novelist, doesn't everybody?
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I think that, yes, uh, but I think that the um, I had no idea how to get started.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_03: I had no idea what business owners needed or wanted.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_03: And this is really the um, this is really designed to be the package that helps you get started, get up and running, start making money, start being able to profit from your writing and enjoy writing um for a living and working with people.
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_03: So um, so yeah, that's uh uh that's on my website.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_03: It's um releasing this summer.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_03: Uh it's at creatived demand.org slash writing business.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: So anyone who's interested can go there and uh and sign up to be notified when that course releases.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'll have links to all that uh as well as your socials and all that good stuff in the show notes.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_00: Anna, this has been an absolute pleasure, and I appreciate you coming sharing your wisdom on the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_00: This has been an absolute blast, and I'm so thankful that you have put your wisdom down into this book.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's great.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I'm gonna encourage all my writer friends to pick up a copy.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: It's fantastic.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you again.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you very much, and I really appreciated talking with you today.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_03: This is great.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a ton from Anna, and this was a really fun interview where we talked about, again, a topic that many times as writers, we like to avoid.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_00: And that, of course, is marketing.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: But as you have heard in this conversation, it is not only an important thing that we've got to pay a ton of attention to, it's also really enjoyable, and it's really, really fun if we do it the correct way.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'd say my biggest takeaway from this interview is the need to be more savvy about our marketing as writers.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: And this is honestly a big problem for many of us.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: So many of us, as I said at the top of this episode, so many of us just want to focus on the creative aspects of our work.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an attitude with many writers that the creative work is more pure, and the marketing is sort of this unsavory, unsatisfying thing that we do, and we kind of feel yucky about it.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: However, we've got to get past this way of thinking because it's just not true.
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: Now, of course, we can market in slimy ways, but the whole idea of marketing, if we do it correctly, is that we're telling people about something that can help them, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if you believe you have something of value to offer, then why wouldn't you want to tell people about it?
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, I would argue that if you're shying away from marketing your books or your writing business, or maybe both, you're actually doing people a huge disservice by not telling them about it.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like a doctor who has medicine, but they're too afraid to tell people about it.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: Meanwhile, the people around them are suffering because they don't have the medicine that can make their lives better.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I would highly encourage you to get Anna's excellent book.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it's called Mission Market Message.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_00: And in this book, she gives out a very clear framework for marketing, and it's really, really great, and it's super helpful.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_00: Anna is a real pro and she has done us all a massive favor by putting this book together.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_00: So I encourage you to go out and support her by grabbing this book.
• 49:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there will be a link to that in the show notes.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_00: Also, make sure to check out Anna's Business Writing Starter Kit.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: There will also be a link to that in the show notes.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Well, a huge thank you to Anna for being an awesome guest on today's episode.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, this was an absolute blast, and I hope this was helpful for you, your writing, and your business.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening to today's episode.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: I want to take a moment to let you know about our daily writer membership community.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know, one of the very best ways to develop better habits and impact more people's lives with your writing is to spend time around other successful writers.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're tired of feeling isolated and chasing success on your own, then I know you're gonna love the Daily Writer community.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_00: For years, I searched for the kind of writing community that I would want to join, but I can never find what I wanted, so I created my own.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the features include weekly writing sprints, monthly community calls, book discussions, calls with guest experts, and much more.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_00: For more info, you can visit dailywriterlife.comslash community.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, and I'll see you tomorrow.