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Katie Woolf spoke with Professor Mary-Louise McLaws before National Science Week · 360 with Katie Woolf

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  Speaker 1: Now, our next guest has been on the show with
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  Speaker 1: us before, Mary Louise mclaus. She is a professor of
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  Speaker 1: epidemiology at the University of New South Wales and an
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  Speaker 1: advisor to the World Health Organization. She's become one of
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  Speaker 1: Australia's most recognized and respected experts on the pandemic, and well,
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  Speaker 1: like so many of her colleagues, she's at the forefront
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  Speaker 1: of the battle to contain the spread of COVID nineteen.
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  Speaker 1: But what exactly do epidemiologists actually do, how vital is
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  Speaker 1: science as a whole in the fight against the coronavirus,
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  Speaker 1: and what does the immediate future look like for us
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  Speaker 1: in terms of living with this disease. We know that
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  Speaker 1: National Science Week it actually kicks off this Saturday, August fourteenth,
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  Speaker 1: and to talk about science, epidemiology and where we might
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  Speaker 1: be headed, I'm pleased to have Professor Mary Louise mclaus.
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  Speaker 2: Join me on the line right now.
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  Speaker 1: Good morning to you, Professor Mary Louise mclaus.
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  Speaker 3: Good morning, Katie. How are you.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, thank you so much for your time and
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  Speaker 1: I know this is the second chat we've had we spoke.
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  Speaker 1: You may recall a few or a couple of months
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  Speaker 1: ago about Howard Springs the quarantine facility out there. When
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  Speaker 1: some of those testing changes came into play, Mary lowise,
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  Speaker 1: there will be people listening wondering what exactly is an epidemiologist.
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  Speaker 3: Firstly, Oh, well, an epidemiologist news is a principle or
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  Speaker 3: way of looking at information, looking at the facts. We
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  Speaker 3: use maths or statistics, and we look for patterns that
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  Speaker 3: could explain a disease patterns and what can prevent disease
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  Speaker 3: and maybe you know, even what cures people. So at
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  Speaker 3: w JO, I work with many different epidemiologists, and some
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  Speaker 3: only work on vaccine trials. They because the vaccine trial
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  Speaker 3: is a very complex study looking at adjusting effects for
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  Speaker 3: age and gender and what you know, a variant of
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  Speaker 3: concern is going around in the particular country where the
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  Speaker 3: vaccine's being trialed, many many different things. Then there are
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  Speaker 3: epidemiologists that work in cancer and try to work out
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  Speaker 3: who's getting cancer, what are the causes, and maybe how
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  Speaker 3: to stop it. So there are many different epidemiologists, but
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  Speaker 3: we usually all use the same sort of principles and
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  Speaker 3: a lot of statistics.
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  Speaker 1: Now, how extensive would you say is the role of
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  Speaker 1: science when we look at how we're fighting this pandemic
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  Speaker 1: COVID nineteen right now.
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  Speaker 3: Oh look, science, science is used in everyday life, absolutely
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  Speaker 3: everyday life, but when it comes to this pandemic. The
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  Speaker 3: mask that you wear was developed by scientists. It's a
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  Speaker 3: magnificent design. You don't realize if you have a spare
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  Speaker 3: much ask a medical mask. Cut it up and have
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  Speaker 3: a look inside. It's got a particular layer that kind
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  Speaker 3: of repels if a virus does a particle does escape
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  Speaker 3: through that first layer, it acts like a repellent so
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  Speaker 3: it doesn't get through the next layer. And that third
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  Speaker 3: layer is a nice soft layer against your face. So
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  Speaker 3: it's a beautiful piece of work that science has developed.
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  Speaker 3: Scientists have developed the alcohol based hand rub that cleans
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  Speaker 3: your hands that you're offered at the entry point of
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  Speaker 3: every shop. And it's not just alcohol. They've worked out
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  Speaker 3: a particular solution so that it doesn't dry your skin
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  Speaker 3: out and yet kills viruses. So they're just two things
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  Speaker 3: that we use every day to fight the virus. I
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  Speaker 3: haven't even started on the magnificent epidemiology and science of
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  Speaker 3: vaccines and treatments.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, and you know our feeler zone now more
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  Speaker 2: than ever.
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  Speaker 1: We're probably realizing as Australians how important science is and
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  Speaker 1: how important you know, people like yourself are as COVID
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  Speaker 1: has struck and the world has really changed in so
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  Speaker 1: many ways.
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  Speaker 3: It has, and I'm really pleased to see that Australians
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  Speaker 3: embrace science. I mean, we're I think we are one
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  Speaker 3: of the best takers up of vaccines. I mean the
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  Speaker 3: zero to five year old vaccine uptake is one of
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  Speaker 3: the highest in the world and it's about ninety four percent.
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  Speaker 3: So we're very good at embracing science, particularly for our health.
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  Speaker 3: And I mean even in the science of dental flossing.
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  Speaker 3: You know, dentists out there will say, yes, dental flossings
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  Speaker 3: as important as brushing your teeth, and that was science
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  Speaker 3: working out, you know, getting an observation and unbiased observation
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  Speaker 3: that you know you need to get the food from
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  Speaker 3: between your teeth well as on your teeth. So there's
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  Speaker 3: science and everything. You know, we recycle, that's science and
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  Speaker 3: we use those recycled items to make other items. So
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  Speaker 3: you know, Australians don't realize that science plays so many
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  Speaker 3: important roles in everyday life.
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  Speaker 1: Mary Louise, We know that around the country at the moment.
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  Speaker 1: You know, even right now in Canberra it's looking as
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  Speaker 1: though they're going to head into a lockdown after the
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  Speaker 1: ACT has recorded its first confirmed COVID nineteen case in
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  Speaker 1: more than a year. We are anticipating that there's going
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  Speaker 1: to be an announcement by their Chief Minister Andrew bar
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  Speaker 1: a little bit later this morning. But we know that,
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  Speaker 1: you know that we're seeing such sudden lockdowns around the nation,
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  Speaker 1: and I guess it's got a lot of us wondering,
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  Speaker 1: what really does the immediate future look like, say the
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  Speaker 1: next one to two years, How do we live with
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  Speaker 1: this and have our lives realistically changed forever?
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  Speaker 3: Well, the one thing that epidemiologists do and what and
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  Speaker 3: this will help to answer that question is we learn
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  Speaker 3: about how human behavior impacts disease transmission. And I learned
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  Speaker 3: that in my first pandemic of HIV and human behavior
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  Speaker 3: can help or hinder the you know, the end of
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  Speaker 3: a pandemic. So what will happen the next couple of
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  Speaker 3: years will be really dependent on our behavior and trusting
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  Speaker 3: the idea that vaccines work. I mean, having one dose
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  Speaker 3: and the vaccine will save your life. It reduces hospitalization
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  Speaker 3: by over seventy five percent. It reduces with one dose.
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  Speaker 3: Even with two doses, you're up to about ninety five
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  Speaker 3: percent reduction of hospitalization. And that's stunningly brilliant. One dose
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  Speaker 3: cuts down household transmission, that doesn't always cut down transmission
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  Speaker 3: out in the general community. Ness Sarily, we need that
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  Speaker 3: second dose to cut down on acquisition and transmission of disease.
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  Speaker 3: So behavior if we go and get vaccinated, we'll be
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  Speaker 3: able to have life that won't necessarily be pre COVID,
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  Speaker 3: but we'll learn to live with some impost of being
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  Speaker 3: tested before we enter mass venues or go overseas, even
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  Speaker 3: if we've been vaccinated, because some people who've been vaccinated,
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  Speaker 3: even with their vaccine certificate, may still pose a risk
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  Speaker 3: to others because they may have a low grade infection
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  Speaker 3: because their body just has let them down. So it
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  Speaker 3: won't be perfect in the next two years, but it
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  Speaker 3: will be so much better.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, and look, I'm always I guess you know, there
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  Speaker 1: is still that vaccine hesitancy from some people in the community.
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  Speaker 1: But you know, when you talk about it like that,
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  Speaker 1: it does make me think, you know, we need to
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  Speaker 1: get as many people out there vaccinated as possible. You know,
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  Speaker 1: what would you sort of say to anybody listening this
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  Speaker 1: morning who does still have that vaccine hesitancy.
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  Speaker 3: Well, first of all, I'd say that I don't believe
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  Speaker 3: that there's a lot of hesitancy. I believe that we
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  Speaker 3: all make decisions differently. Some of us make decisions rapidly,
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  Speaker 3: others make decisions watching those of us who make decisions
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  Speaker 3: rapidly see that that decision and that behavior wasn't fatal,
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  Speaker 3: wasn't dangerous. And there are those that make a lot
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  Speaker 3: of life decisions slowly. But I'd ask them to please
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  Speaker 3: understand that we don't have time for them to make
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  Speaker 3: a decision slowly and carefully about the vaccine. We need
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  Speaker 3: as many people in Australia vaccinated as possible because the
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  Speaker 3: herd immunity needs to be very high, and to get
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  Speaker 3: that we need as many many people as possible of adults.
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  Speaker 3: But then we need to start focusing on the adolescent.
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  Speaker 3: So I'd say to people who are worried and who
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  Speaker 3: normally do make a decision to get vaccinated, please make
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  Speaker 3: that decision fast so that we can get back to
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  Speaker 3: a better lifestyle and better employment opportunities faster.
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  Speaker 1: And Mary Louise, is that really you know why that
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  Speaker 1: herd immunity is so important when talking about the fight
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  Speaker 1: against coronavirus.
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely, Just imagine if every one of us lined up
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  Speaker 3: and every third person isn't vaccinated, the virus will find
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  Speaker 3: that third person and sneak in and find the other
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  Speaker 3: third person in the next row. Because herd immunity is
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  Speaker 3: like building a wall, and we don't want that wall
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  Speaker 3: to have any breaches in it. And the fewer people
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  Speaker 3: that haven't taken up the vaccine the better, because there
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  Speaker 3: will be those that just can't because of medical reasons.
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  Speaker 3: So we need to allow them to not have the
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  Speaker 3: vaccine for those important reasons, and the rest of us,
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  Speaker 3: you know, produce a really really good wall of defense
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  Speaker 3: to keep them from acquiring the infection and then that
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  Speaker 3: infection potentially becoming a super delta for example, and then
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  Speaker 3: breaching the vaccine wall. So we need to get adults
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  Speaker 3: and adolescents vaccinated as soon as possible. Now build that
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  Speaker 3: lovely war.
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  Speaker 2: I did want to ask you just quickly.
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  Speaker 1: You mentioned then that you know that you worked on
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  Speaker 1: HIV when it was obviously a huge concern around the world.
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  Speaker 1: I know that you are obviously a specialist in infectious diseases.
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  Speaker 1: How do you think that COVID nineteen stacks up against
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  Speaker 1: pandemics of say the past one hundred years.
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  Speaker 3: Oh gosh, well, I'd like to take you back to
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  Speaker 3: Justinian's plague and that was then five hundred a D
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  Speaker 3: or five forty one AD that caught. That's twenty five
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  Speaker 3: million lives. And then I'll take you to a more
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  Speaker 3: recent outbreak in say nineteen sixty eight, when we had
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  Speaker 3: what was called Hong Kong flu that killed fifteen percent
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  Speaker 3: of Hong Kong population at the time. That was just horrendous.
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  Speaker 3: And then you know, moving closer to home, you know
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  Speaker 3: there's of course HIV has killed thirty six million people.
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  Speaker 3: But it's very hard to compare pandemics for the impact
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  Speaker 3: because just even over the last hundred years, our modern
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  Speaker 3: medicine has stepped in and stopped people from having chronic
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  Speaker 3: diseases that can then tip them over to death when
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  Speaker 3: they do get a novel virus. So it's very hard
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  Speaker 3: to compare. But we just want to save every life
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  Speaker 3: that we possibly can. And while this has often been
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  Speaker 3: compared to with say, you know, heart disease that usually
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  Speaker 3: impacts mostly the middle age and older, but this current
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  Speaker 3: virus has always been mostly shouldered by young adults, and
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  Speaker 3: the way we've vaccinated is to protect the elderly and
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  Speaker 3: the vulnerable, leaving our young adults very vulnerable and we
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  Speaker 3: do not want them to get long COVID. We do
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  Speaker 3: not want them to get sick. They are our future
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  Speaker 3: leaders and our future hope. So I think it's more
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  Speaker 3: about who's getting this, it's the young, and let's protect
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  Speaker 3: the young.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Mary and Louise mcclaus.
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  Speaker 1: Obviously we're chatting to you because it is Science Week
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  Speaker 1: next week or it kicks off on Saturday. I know
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  Speaker 1: that people are really being encouraged to get involved in
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  Speaker 1: events well, whether they're in person or online. Where can
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  Speaker 1: people head to for more information and to find out
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  Speaker 1: about some of those great events.
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  Speaker 3: Well, you can go to www dot science, one word,
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  Speaker 3: dot net, dot au and you can see lots of
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  Speaker 3: great activities and lots of other scientists having impacts in
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  Speaker 3: your daily life without you even realizing and seeing what
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  Speaker 3: other scientists do and enjoy science.
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  Speaker 1: Well, Mary, Louise mclaus, it is always great to talk
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  Speaker 1: to you, incredibly fascinating. I really appreciate your time this morning.
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  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having your chat with us.
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  Speaker 3: It's a great pleasure and enjoy Science Week and thank
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  Speaker 3: you for having me on.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you.
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  Speaker 1: That is Professor Mary Louise mclaus there, and as you've heard,
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  Speaker 1: we know that she's a professor in epidemiology at the
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  Speaker 1: University of New South Wales and an advisor to the
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  Speaker 1: World Health Organization. And yes, Science Week kicking off on Saturday,