Latest / Identity at the Center / #219 - Identiverse 2023: Identiverse Themes with Ian Glazer of Weave Identity

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#219 - Identiverse 2023: Identiverse Themes with Ian Glazer of Weave Identity · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with I
0:10
am this is the go-to podcast. Now your host Jim McDonald and
0:18
Jeff Stedman Welcome to the identity of the center podcast
0:23
I'm Jeff and that's Jim. Hey Jim.
0:25
Hey, Jeff, how are you? That's a bad.
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I feel myself, getting hoarse, you know a leading practice.
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I hate the term best practices leading practice for when you
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visit the desert is to stay hydrated.
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Drink lots of water. So what am I doing?
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I'm drinking lots of coffee. Yeah, it makes sense.
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Does that work? I mean, it's liquid.
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I mean, all business travel is just the management of fluids
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and take an output of three primary fluids.
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Its water caffeine alcohol, mix, the Blends and like that's all
0:56
business. Travel is the rest is just
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tracings and Vegas. Has it all in spades soon and
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let you do a special martini and hit.
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All the above, you can get all the food groups.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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But the food. All right, let's jump right into
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it because obviously, Ian is already here.
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Did I break a product? Like, who is this?
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This weird. We're not supposed to speak
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until spoken to if you have a prettier?
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Yes, yes, shut up. Okay, we've got you Laser, he's
1:21
the founder and president of we've identity.
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I think this is the fifth iteration, maybe of
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introductions that we've done for you.
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Welcome back to the show. Ian, you can never have too many
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emails. That's just, that's just three
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of the thank you, guys. I really, it's really an honor
1:36
to be here. Thank you so much.
1:37
Well, thanks for taking the time.
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I mean, you been, you know, a great friend for the show.
1:41
You've done a lot of different stuff and now you've started
1:43
something new. Yeah, Eve identity.
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We've, I did it, but the hell's going on over there?
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Well, it comes from a realization that I I really like
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helping people build things like I like helping people build
1:55
products and solutions number one.
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Number two, I do identity. Okay?
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And number three, I do product management.
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And being a product is - okay. So bundle all that together,
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what do you got? And so, the goal is to help to
2:11
start probably grow stage companies.
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Either formulate. What their product Vision will
2:16
be working, product strategy, up level, their product management
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skills their analysts relationship.
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Girls do that in this domain or near adjacent and see where it
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goes. When I want to have, is some
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long-term relationships with some really cool people and
2:31
building really cool stuff and try my hand.
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At I have never worked in a Services capacity before I've
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never worked for myself before. So you might as well just like
2:41
try all the new things at once and I don't know no but what is
2:46
that new emails that we've identity at AOL.com, you know?
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I was rocking the geocities, but yeah, it's could be a little
2:56
taking my game day. L will have a show link for
2:59
people to connect with you through that but like George
3:03
Fletcher just got like a warm and fuzzy.
3:04
Yeah. Right.
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I'm taking oil. Well, a prodigy fun fact.
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My brother racked up an enormous for the time America online bill
3:14
because of playing online video games, the shadow of you,
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Serbia's was a role-playing game and back then it was
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everything's by the hour. Mmm.
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And he was logged in all the time and my dad, I thought he
3:28
was when I thought I was going to have one less brother.
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Yeah, it was prohibitively expensive but you have been
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talking a lot here. We're still what I've done over
3:38
sister. Actually the last of our
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identity verse 23 shows, which is kind of cool kind of closing
3:42
out going out on a high note, as George Costanza, Costanza would
3:45
say. But this morning, he had a
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keynote sort of panel where we talked about Chief identity
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officer. Yeah.
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And really a lot of shows have been been recording this week.
3:53
Has been around this idea of sort of Master, John Nostradamus
3:56
week, as Jim has been quoting, it kind of predictions of the
3:59
future. And this is a session that I
4:02
actually highlighted. I believe it was a couple
4:06
episodes ago coming here before coming here was like, okay, this
4:09
is something that's kind of interesting in my position going
4:11
into. This was that sounds like a good
4:14
idea to me anything that raises the visibility of identity and
4:19
having it having a seat at the table.
4:22
And having more, I don't know. Juice power whatever that looks
4:26
like great. And you guys brought us an
4:27
interesting points that I want to get into from the
4:30
conversation. You had with others on the
4:32
stage. I guess, where do you stand
4:35
today? Does the does the I am space
4:39
need a chief identity officer. Why?
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Or why not? And I'd love to hear the why
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Nots? Because I think there's some
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interesting things that I didn't hadn't thought about.
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So I proposed this, this topic. 2nd hindle conference chair and
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said we've been kicking this idea around here and I for like
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a year. Like I really kind of want to
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poke at this thing and I truly vacillate on where I Where my
5:04
answer lives? Because the more I think about
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it either talk myself out of it or into it.
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And the way I started thinking about this truth be told was a
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hey, where is ours? Which is not maybe the
5:16
healthiest place to start, but I like this inside.
5:18
Like look at all of the things that we touch and we enable in
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the enterprise. We as identity practitioners,
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we're is our sea level representation and that matured
5:29
thank goodness over time, but then became a little bit more
5:33
refined. Is well, if there was a roll,
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the place, I'm now starting to come from, is what data would it
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have? Custodial concerns about and
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this is where things get really challenging because will is that
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I'm doing Workforce, I donate, I care a great lie about HR data,
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the quality of that data and protecting that information and
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then apply that information for what I do.
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And if I'm in Siam, if I'm on the customer side, we'll just
6:00
that extend all the way into the CRM system into the mar 10.
6:03
Teksystems. It doesn't feel like that's
6:06
actually a viable answer but I'm really interested in that
6:09
information because it's going to enable these outcomes.
6:11
It's going to power the Machinery that I am building.
6:15
And so I had made this statement.
6:17
This morning is like well, it's kind of like a chief oxygen
6:20
officer like we need like we know we know I don't even need
6:23
it for everything it's like oxygen.
6:25
You can probably not get to get a see Sweet Roll, just because
6:29
your viable right in all these different places.
6:32
Like, also being the chief Officer I suppose.
6:35
But the reason why I think there has to be some form of
6:39
representation at the highest ranks of an organization is
6:42
because when alignment and priorities are being set,
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whatever that Cadence's. However, the organization public
6:49
or private does this, you've got to have some of the table saying
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there are dial tone Services. You need to make this happen and
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that can be growing. The top of your funnel by making
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customer acquisition faster and easier and taking out friction
7:03
of that process. Through Siam or its risk
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reduction in a Workforce context.
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You need these dial tone Services.
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They need their own representation in these
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priorities because they are component of some of these
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things. So is the more I get to the more
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I think about like I don't know if I need to see title, what
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there does need to be is a way for the practitioner and the
7:26
discipline to be represented in those circles at priority
7:29
setting time and resource allocation time with their own
7:32
call-outs. Because folding them folding,
7:36
those identity needs into other places like saying, well
7:39
Workforce will sort it out because this CIO focuses on
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these things. And this is Oak is some sort of
7:44
insight on how to deal. It doesn't then touch also like
7:48
what our data quality initiatives happening in our HR
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systems and how is that going to impact these things down there?
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Those don't get coordinated unless you elevate this up and
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say, look this is the, this is the Grist for the mill.
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It's the HR data to the customer data, whose response for
8:02
Quality, how is it flowing? What protection concerns we
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have, how do you want to use? So you gotta have someone there
8:08
at least I think to represent those concerns and help in the
8:11
alignment process. So I think most of the time
8:15
identity seems to follow nor security and there's already a
8:19
chief security officer or information career opportunities
8:21
should say, is this some might feel like this is an indictment
8:26
that the seaso is not representing.
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I am enough and I don't know if that's fair because I think
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there's some that are very good. Some that aren't and or maybe
8:36
not as expert right in the identity space, which I think is
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really where the the Crux of it comes is does your sees if your
8:43
seaso understands identity gets it and it's part of their
8:49
vernacular versus maybe a historical.
8:51
See, so who is, I'm a network guy?
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I'm a firewall guy, right? That sort of thing.
8:56
I guess. Where do you see that
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conversation taking place? Well, this is a security
9:00
technology. Why would they have a separate?
9:02
Yeah, so I think a lot of security practitioners believe
9:07
that the totality of identity is authentication and they're in
9:12
ends the conversation. Obviously, it's a gross
9:14
disservice but it actually limits, the security
9:17
applications of what identity can do, let alone what it can do
9:19
for Siam and all these other things.
9:21
So I tend to, I know this is horribly stereotypical, I don't
9:25
think security people get identity, they really don't like
9:28
those little clinic ation thinking will make it.
9:29
Stronger will do more of it and then, you know, chill.
9:35
So I don't think it's actually an issue of this is 0
9:37
representing identity. I think it is because yes, there
9:42
is a component of that and that is a subset of the actual
9:44
capacity of what we can do is practitioners and what the
9:46
Technologies can do. But the difference in the
9:50
scissors are unique one. Where that individual in this
9:53
case dr. Heather Hinton, who was on the
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panel with us, they have board access now.
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That can be a very stressful and challenging thing.
10:01
But at least you can be in the room and talk about programs
10:06
progress, and one of the top concerns organizations have
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Privacy officers in this is what my good friend.
10:13
How do you wax is talking about kind of a similar boat, but they
10:17
don't necessarily always have that board access.
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They haven't been always fully enabled within an organization
10:23
to do the things that maybe they need to do to better.
10:25
Protect all of the kinds of information that they have from
10:29
the perspective of privacy and stay current and and how the
10:32
practices are working. So I don't think it's a
10:36
representation problem. I think the larger challenge is
10:41
that the those dial tone services that make up an
10:44
Enterprise today, our security privacy, identity.
10:49
That's Bedrock practically. No matter almost one industry or
10:52
even possibly extremely few, some sort of exceptions and
10:59
those Services get taken for granted I don't mean to be
11:05
abused in the August issue. I'm just saying is look like
11:06
that. It'll just decide just work out
11:09
right now because we don't think about the chairs in our office
11:12
space and how that's affecting productivity.
11:14
I mean I bet someone does actually in real estate but like
11:16
that's not a common conversation will be tears of course, they'll
11:19
be chairs in the office is done, why not?
11:20
Of course they'll be some identity privacy security events
11:26
in changing that sort of notion. I think can't be said as a
11:31
failure. This is a can't be sense of
11:32
failure. This EPO.
11:34
I think it is more about how we think about our enabling
11:36
Technologies and Enterprise that changes, people's perspective of
11:41
these are tools for growing our Market more competitive, being
11:47
more efficient. What have you?
11:48
And that's a top-down thing. But boards are just now being
11:53
pushed to learn about cybersecurity.
11:54
Yeah, they've kind of been forced to do that for privacy,
11:57
by way of things like gdpr, that hasn't happened for it.
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That's why I wear. This is an education thing for
12:03
the Just to say, hey, we really should be thinking about this
12:06
because I think one of the one of the comments on stage this
12:08
morning was well, boards are mostly focused on financials.
12:13
I can't think of anything more catastrophic to accompany to
12:15
need to get breached and loss of confidence.
12:19
When the consumer, the loss of the data itself that seems to me
12:22
like that would have some pretty high Financial ramifications.
12:25
But by the time, it reaches the board and having participated in
12:28
building board decks for arses. Oh my prior life.
12:32
What gets though is here are the 10 top level risks from?
12:37
An IT perspective that the scissor was tracking on behalf
12:40
of the subcommittee of the board now.
12:43
Hiding in there is probably user provisioning and I jean and MFA
12:49
in those kinds of things. But what gets to the board is so
12:53
synthesized upward, and this is not a fault of the way people
12:55
interact with board. So, it's just because if you
12:57
enumerated, every single little part of every single business,
13:02
You'd be sifting through it like sand on the beach, right?
13:04
There's so many little parts. So by the time, he keeps getting
13:06
summarized in summarized, so it's there.
13:08
But it's never, I don't think it's necessarily a focus of the
13:12
more. I don't think that's the case.
13:13
I think it's more that next year, down the sea level saying,
13:17
we are going to leverage everything to our advantage.
13:21
Again, public sector. Private sector does not matter.
13:24
What can we bring to bear? And are we getting the most out
13:27
of those things? And I think more than anything
13:29
else I'm coming around on the education side to say, You're
13:32
missing out by not fully expressing this capability in
13:39
your teams and in your Technologies, and this is one of
13:41
the locks. I've got a statement, a question
13:45
and some comic relief. So statement 5 years ago, seven
13:50
years ago or is new Chief privacy officer or it was at
13:54
this stage of conversation. Fifteen years ago, there is no
13:58
C. So or is that this level of
14:00
conversation? And I was in 95 years before
14:02
that, you know, 20 plus years ago and smart.
14:07
I've talked about this smart and I'm doing air quotes, smart
14:10
Executives would question. Like, are you want to spend
14:14
money on information security? Like how does that help me ship
14:19
more product or make more money and didn't understand brisket
14:23
the time at least from a didn't understand.
14:26
Technology risk. So I could see kind of the same
14:31
business case building for this is like what happened with
14:35
information security company started getting attacked and
14:39
losing big numbers and now nobody even questions.
14:42
The idea of having a chief information security officer, in
14:45
fact, if you hear about a company of any substantial size
14:48
than they don't have one, you would just be stunned.
14:52
But again, 15 years ago, they're about to have one.
14:56
Actually well actually this is a good tweak on an old adage,
14:59
right? Like it's two kinds of
15:00
companies, those have been briefed.
15:01
Those are about to like there's the the two kinds of coming out
15:02
of those who have sandals or one that's funny.
15:04
You say it? So say that again the way you
15:05
said it because I've heard today please those have been breached
15:09
and those are about to be for those who know it is.
15:11
The that's the one I do it. Yeah, so it's the two kids
15:13
coming, 10 breach, and was that, don't know.
15:15
It yet is the way that I was supposed interesting, okay?
15:17
So, and the Chief privacy officer concept, I think Kim
15:20
long run. The same time gdpr was coming
15:23
along, it's like companies are actually starting to lose.
15:26
Money because having privacy breaches or not, even yes.
15:32
There's the breaches that causes a big fines but also just the
15:36
embarrassment of giving up private data or storing data
15:40
that they shouldn't be storing. So my question was Chief,
15:45
identity officer, who do they report to?
15:50
Because I think this is the same question about the seaside with
15:52
like do they report to the CIO CFO CEO?
15:56
Cro British officer digital. So I think it depends on when I
16:00
come back to. It depends on what data they
16:03
have custodial oversight for it. And so if this role owns the
16:09
customer profile, IE the information that the individual
16:13
has provided Whatever that customer may be.
16:16
It may be B2B b2c. What have you?
16:19
That's a really pivotal question because I can see some
16:23
organizations saying marketing digital own, the customer
16:27
profile and identity. You own, the use thereof
16:32
essentially Downstream and as flow to our business processes
16:35
and privacy officer. You need to be shoulder to
16:37
shoulder to make sure we're doing the right things here, and
16:39
security officer, you know, ensure that this hasn't been
16:42
tampered with remain secret Etc. If it Does include the profile.
16:47
Now, you're in a point where like should this role be parted
16:51
digital and then if you go that route then it's like yeah.
16:55
But you also own Workforce. So so and I think the place I'm
17:01
coming back to on. This is, there is a we see in
17:07
organizations, a devaluation of titles or said indifferently
17:11
like, hey you're the joke used to be like yeah, more vp's than
17:14
a bang. Great.
17:15
Like like everybody's a VP and that I get how that happens.
17:23
Sure. But I wanted mean something,
17:27
right? And so with the means of the is
17:28
really about like do you have the opportunity to open the door
17:32
in this tier of an organization at the times that are right what
17:37
we're setting? Priorities when we are
17:40
realigning? When we are allocating
17:42
resources, may not matter, right?
17:44
And this is kind of Heather's point is like may not be their
17:49
weight. Like if a Scissor Sisters don't
17:51
often sit directly reporting to the CEO.
17:54
Depends on the kind of Company sometimes they're under
17:56
engineering or technology. What have you liked?
17:58
So I think that this person if it's one right the owned the
18:05
whole gamut I think in theory they can report anywhere so long
18:11
as They have that access and the relationship only and the
18:16
ability to do that. It could be your cyber security.
18:20
Architect like Zoo, there are people walking around here who
18:23
are dyed-in-the-wool identity practitioners.
18:26
But if you look at their titles, it's like Chief cyber security.
18:29
Architect, why? Because that's how the business
18:33
interprets, the need and pay grade title some of that to some
18:38
of that too. So I think I'm coming around to,
18:42
I don't think this is actually Roll those in Need for
18:47
influence. There's need for advice and
18:50
counsel. But I think that can live in a
18:55
variety of places in the organization and the
18:56
organization's own culture and structure will sort some of that
19:00
stuff out for Better or For Worse.
19:02
And it may not be advantageous, but it will come out in the
19:03
wash. Maybe be a case of be careful
19:06
what you ask for. Yeah, so comic relief is, what
19:10
does this role get called? So, Andy hindle in his keynote
19:13
yesterday, said, how many people say C?
19:16
So and how many people say so? So Chief identity officer chief,
19:22
If I D officer Cheeto, that's what I say.
19:26
Chido sheet you just changed overnight here, values.
19:31
Like we not only need to cheat. I mean, you got me some of that,
19:33
like, I want one of those. It's like a whole bag of Cheetos
19:36
actually. Well, yeah, that's I guess
19:38
that's the collective noun. If you have a conference, you
19:41
know, with like, cast forward, 10 years.
19:42
Now, everybody is a chief I did. She do World.
19:45
Everyone's a Cheeto. It's the like, well, what do you
19:47
call the bus that takes you from the venue to the party?
19:49
While that would be a bag of Cheetos package?
19:53
I mean it seems like a good enough reason and just to just
19:55
let's do this thing. So switch topics.
20:01
Want to get your Nostradamus view on things, call them active
20:06
clients. So mobile client, some browsers,
20:10
password managers which are the password is dead, right?
20:14
So we can just get rid of password.
20:16
Managers, of course, just like samuells death.
20:20
That Witch Is Dead, may never die.
20:22
And digital laws. Let's see you.
20:24
So, so going back a couple of years I've been thinking about
20:29
like how do we get a leverage Point closer to the human that
20:32
can act on their behalf to do some of the more complicated
20:35
things that happen in our processes and identity
20:38
processes. And I actually cannot take
20:44
credit for this original idea because if you spool all the,
20:48
the first II w, Where Kim Cameron is demoing in folk art
20:55
and there are, there are just these huge brains walking around
20:59
iiw and remember, after seeing that demo, I had just met dick
21:05
heart or probably the second times of reintroduced to him.
21:09
And I remember sitting down, he's like, yeah, you know, time
21:11
is interesting is like yeah, you know, maybe active clients are
21:14
really the answer here, maybe we do need something closer to the
21:17
individual that is not just a passive.
21:20
Window into a service like just a browser especially how they
21:23
were ten years ago Gloria to further.
21:27
What do you define as an active client?
21:29
Because I want to make sure we don't lose people.
21:30
Yeah. So I'm thinking about an active
21:32
client is it is something that's that is near to the human,
21:35
that's doing the interactions and it can be like the things,
21:40
you know we listed out could be a mobile operating system could
21:43
be your browser, password manager, digital wallet.
21:45
Essentially it is the interface between you and that service for
21:49
a certain Text that may be viewing and interacting with it
21:53
may also be and this is where I talked about this on Tuesday,
21:57
brokering, or recognition process.
21:59
Now that starts today as, oh, I can form for your password or I
22:03
can handle, passkey off from a secure Enclave, to the other
22:06
service. So, that active client notion is
22:09
that thing. It's close to the individual
22:10
that is helping to facilitate some kind of interaction, the
22:14
identity context, it manifests itself, password, managers are
22:18
really good, sort of pure play, if you will.
22:20
Passkey and how the mobile operating system, presents
22:22
webathon tokens and wallets. I think presented kind of
22:27
opportunity as well in this regard, but more and more.
22:31
I think about it. We need an agent essentially
22:35
acting on behalf of the individual to help broker.
22:37
The more complex parts of how they interact with identity so
22:39
that they don't have to know about it.
22:42
And the problem is, we expose way too many things in identity
22:46
related functions, especially in consumer stories That he ought
22:50
to know about. And that's, that's actually a
22:54
real problem, like, years ago, when I was with Burton grouper,
22:57
doing some research, and I was helping out a friend working
23:00
doing some research on pki and he was looking at basically like
23:04
just the Hall of failed. Deployments like here's like a
23:06
museum of like here is your father certificate and it was
23:10
never actually properly used but what he found and I this is
23:13
totally true and identity as well as the close of the user is
23:15
to the private key material, the mun, more likely, the initiative
23:18
will fail. The more that an individual has
23:21
to know about the plumbing and more likely, it's going to fit a
23:24
wide because they don't, they're not Palmer's.
23:25
They don't care about the plumbing.
23:26
That is not what they're trying to do.
23:28
They're just trying to get to the other side of whatever this
23:30
hurdle is they've seen before us and so browsers.
23:35
Allow us to see that content and gets over the hurdle of getting
23:38
content from wherever it may be password managers do the same
23:41
thing in the sense of like, all right.
23:42
They're going to handle the login process so you don't have
23:45
to worry about and the promise of password, listen, the promise
23:47
of frankly username list is that thing.
23:49
To. So as I think about the concept
23:52
where I've been focused on recognition versus
23:54
authentication, we need something to help that process
23:57
along and it's interesting that things like ei2 ass and what's
24:02
going on with open wallets and all the initiatives are
24:05
happening in Europe. And also, we're seeing here is
24:07
actually driving this conversation for of saying like,
24:09
hey, there's got to be some form of standardized way that we can
24:13
present credentials or Keys passwords or what have you.
24:17
So I think this is a bit of an inevitability.
24:20
But the important thing is, people shouldn't really have to
24:24
see a know about them. If it's, it has to be
24:27
transparent in the way they are interacting with services and
24:31
there's a lot yet to be done if you start thinking about.
24:34
Well, if Apple does really release these virtual goggles,
24:37
we're all just now strapped in all the time Victoria.
24:40
And I are waiting with bated breath for these just FYI.
24:43
Well, I'm sure I'm sure. But like, what does it mean to
24:45
authenticate in that context? Yeah.
24:47
Like do I start with a keyboard in like neat, space like tape.
24:51
It tape. It tape, it tape.
24:52
Okay good. But I'm glasses.
24:53
Well, how do I mean what? And then then your significant
24:56
other? Let me try those.
24:57
Sorry, they don't work. Yeah, well, I mean, I'm sure the
24:59
Polaris getting a bunch of other fun things will be super cool
25:02
but but same point is like as we adopt more modalities for
25:08
interacting with information technology and I'm putting that
25:11
in quotes, like we need to adopt the client, the clients need to
25:15
mature so that Just don't know, have to know how the plumbing
25:18
works. That's right.
25:19
Well that's the best security in the best experiences writer.
25:22
Is that thing? It's just magic.
25:23
It just works just works. We'll just feels like at this
25:27
conference. Like what really took me back,
25:29
was the unanimity in support of Fido Alliance fighter, to
25:35
everything that those folks were going to pass Keys.
25:39
It's just like what what surprised me was that?
25:42
It's just like Universal. Like yes, yes.
25:46
And That there is. And this is something that not
25:51
going to shock, kaushik talks about a lot which is yes,
25:55
passkeys, great. But there are definitely use
25:59
cases and scenarios. I talked about this a little bit
26:01
like people that cannot represent themselves or people
26:06
that don't have access to is David Lee was like a thousand
26:08
dollars. Cell phone can't be the answer
26:09
to all of our technological problems.
26:12
So packs keys are great. But they do not expand the
26:16
ability for the entire sort of world to interact with these
26:20
services. So we're not there yet.
26:22
Pass keys are important. I think it is the most important
26:24
hint, if you will. In is that a bridge technology
26:27
to the future or is it where we're going is to pass Keys?
26:31
Passkeys is the it's part of the overall story, but it doesn't it
26:35
is still exclusive and by that, I mean it is people with a
26:40
thousand other cell phone or it is people with this kind of
26:43
computer or Kinds of things. And so very, very powerfully be
26:47
extremely clear about that, but it doesn't get us to universal
26:53
access to the people that need services from their local
26:56
government to private Corporation and so the where the
27:01
where it has to get to and let me be clear, I don't know what
27:05
that is entirely. I got some ideas has to be
27:08
inclusive of all of those addressable markets.
27:11
Again, I'm putting it in quotes But like everyone should be able
27:13
to participate in this kind of World which is a hybrid of
27:16
digital and analog and every selection we make in technology
27:21
has some exclusivity to it. Oh you're not a person in this
27:24
social network so you can't sign it on this service.
27:26
Oh you don't have a fingerprint reader on your phone so you
27:29
can't use, passkeys, right? And great.
27:32
So we have to collect a bunch of those so we can get total
27:35
coverage right. Meaning, everyone can
27:37
participate because that is what the future ought to look like.
27:40
Yeah, we talked with Andre Durant and, you know, he brought
27:43
up the very Only Point everything can be used for good
27:46
and bad. Basically, kind of paraphrase it
27:48
and I see the good in passkeys, right?
27:51
Hey we're trying to kill a password, theoretically has been
27:53
dead for 20, something years now, but still it's still there.
27:56
But it can also create a further digital divide.
27:59
What if we start building services that require a passkey
28:03
and you have this order of operations?
28:05
Well I need the certain thing. I must be this tall to ride or
28:08
must have this device. Whatever.
28:09
Maybe say I think you know, making sure that we don't Don't
28:15
forget about that is an important part of this rule out
28:17
because totally right, the democratization of access should
28:21
not be for the people who can afford an iPhone, or an Android
28:25
or their these be some better way to you you touched on
28:27
something. And it occurs to me that often
28:29
when technologist talk about the democratization of x.
28:33
And talking about the accessibility of people similar
28:35
to themselves and this is where things like what women and
28:39
identity are doing with their inclusions and is the way more
28:41
Universal just behind the Saran on what you think.
28:45
Great. This needs to be able to do and
28:47
the democratization is a far bigger.
28:51
Yeah, set of constituents that typically people think about.
28:56
I think I have the answer, you're born.
28:59
Hmm, and you're handed a fight okey Hardware.
29:02
Yeah. Okay, so here's the problem of
29:04
that you're born. As soon as you figure out how to
29:07
stick things in your mouth, you will inevitably swallow.
29:09
So now you're biohacking. No, no, you're just eating a fun
29:12
toy. Now we already know and like
29:14
people that make these Keys like, no, no, they've come out
29:16
the other end of dogs and they still work, so I guess.
29:19
But like, no, well, I think there's also the crowd that
29:22
thinks if you were to put a chip under the person's skin that
29:26
tracking. If you have a problem with that,
29:28
then your tinfoil hat and I don't think that's really I
29:32
don't think it's that black and white.
29:33
Right, we've gotten somewhat there, right?
29:35
And I'm looking around the room, two of us are wearing Apple
29:37
watches, and they're monitoring arching.
29:40
I do not like wearing we don't like wearing watches but that's
29:42
nothing to do with that, but we already are kind of that.
29:45
Now, obviously, we are technologists and we're probably
29:49
looking at that in different ways, but there are things that
29:52
were already doing. I don't think people realize
29:54
like, oh, that's a biometric device on my wrist.
29:56
I can unlock my MacBook, that's sitting in front of me, which
29:59
is, by the way, based on a 4-Digit pin.
30:02
It's not those kind of undercut the password.
30:03
It's just really long that you have on the device, but any
30:06
rate, neither here nor there. Let's go to the next topic and
30:09
because we're talking about the future a lot.
30:11
And I think about innovation in this market, one of the examples
30:14
that I look at is IGA and For Better, or For Worse, I'll point
30:19
at Gardner. They have stopped doing magic.
30:21
Quadrants and I asked them on stage.
30:24
At the last Gartner, we were fortunate to get on there and
30:27
talk with Henry came Becky who one is IGA over with?
30:32
Where's the Innovation? Because there is no more magic
30:35
quadrant. So, therefore, the last one was
30:37
the last known winner, I guess. Now, if you talk to anybody,
30:41
ourselves included and Gartner themselves, they would say you
30:44
should not be using a magic quadrant for your buying
30:46
decision. It should be another point of
30:48
data, whatever may be right. I think hopefully people get
30:51
that but I know that there are lots of companies look at that.
30:54
So where is the Innovation going to come from?
30:56
In some of these spaces that are quote, unquote, mature Access
31:01
management. IGA, I love AI, I have certain
31:05
ideas of how I think AI is going to manifest itself and we'll
31:08
probably get to a, I hear in a minute, but what are you
31:10
thinking? So the observation I hit on a
31:14
while back was and this this I don't know.
31:18
I just made me get some haters, it's fine.
31:20
The core of identity is almost fully mature, fully commoditized
31:26
and kind of boring. Important.
31:29
But nonetheless stayed. Let's say so where the
31:33
Innovation is going to come from.
31:34
Is the adjacencies. And there are more and more,
31:39
interesting near neighbors of core identity, both core a
31:43
turning. I mean, not just work force
31:44
versus consumer. I mean, both of those things.
31:46
Like both of those markets in my mind, are reasonably stable?
31:51
And so what's happening? Is that Innovation from the
31:53
edges are now, the really interesting thing so examples,
31:58
We have this wave, and it seems like it's even bigger than
32:00
before of pass wordless animation.
32:04
What was prior to that? The wave was strong
32:07
authentication, but we have password list.
32:10
We have people that are starting to look at proofing as more
32:15
relevant than ever in sort of classic identity.
32:21
I was just talking to someone like a, he's like, I'm really
32:23
surprised how few proving vendors are here.
32:25
I'm like, are you kidding? I'm so surprised how many
32:26
providers are here, right? And it's a perspective thing,
32:29
but that's an important, especially, as we think about
32:32
credentials where this goes, but there are these other things.
32:35
So, like, the, the itd are segments in the market.
32:38
Again, an example of these are near adjacencies either they're
32:42
using or act upon data that we have custodial sort of interest
32:46
in for a certain end and that typically The core Energy
32:51
Systems give you the control points to then affect whatever
32:55
those controls are. But there's some other insiders,
32:58
some other experience being brought in around the sides if
33:01
you will. And so partially it is the what
33:06
other market conditions. Now, open up the ability to have
33:09
these adjacencies. So like mobile Biometrics, gives
33:13
us the opportunity to pass key in a real meaningful way.
33:15
That's pretty. Darn, cool.
33:18
But that's just sort of an example where The fact that like
33:21
well heck we have all these signals from all of these
33:23
different classic security systems that have identity
33:26
implications May. Well, maybe we can bring those
33:28
to Bear differently and this becomes maybe I TDR maybe some
33:32
other things. So these other conditions around
33:36
the identity Market are really going to then ferment this Edge
33:40
and so honestly one of the places that there's the greatest
33:44
opportunity for Innovation is actually the marketplaces For
33:50
these right. So I spent nine years at
33:54
Salesforce, we have this amazing, third party app,
33:57
Marketplace map Exchange. Thousands, upon thousands upon
34:00
thousands of apps, millions of developers that Marketplace was
34:04
new like at for its time. No one had ever built this thing
34:08
up. Hey look, I'm going to provide a
34:09
route to market for technologies that are adjacent to this or
34:12
built on this and we're going to get super easy for you to
34:16
contract them install it and get going with them.
34:19
That model we see in a very vendor specific way, but I'm
34:24
starting to see like, well gosh, there's there's a Marketplace
34:27
opportunity for someone to build actually, this kind of Market is
34:30
say, like, oh, you have these Central core componentry great
34:33
here. Things that can come around the
34:35
size and give you this other enhancements.
34:37
I think the marketplace itself isn't possible opportunity for
34:41
innovation in and of itself like an I am App Store.
34:44
Yeah. And these other external
34:46
conditions like we talked about the Apple goggle thing like
34:49
Like, what's that? Could unlock darn, I don't know.
34:51
But like that's a new market condition.
34:53
That, if it's successful, I'm not thinking like, as an
34:55
anti-pattern Google Glass, like that's actually gonna cause sort
34:59
of people to go, like, whoo, that's chocolate.
35:02
I've got peanut butter, we're in business and it's an adjacency
35:06
to the core of it. Everything needs a killer app to
35:08
be able to buy any product, right?
35:10
It doesn't matter what it is. What is the killer app that's
35:11
going to drive people to want it?
35:15
I think I've talked about this a few times where I think
35:17
Innovation is going to come from.
35:19
In these boring areas is complacency.
35:23
I think the IGA Market has gotten complacent because the
35:27
definition is Ensuring the right people, the right access or who
35:32
has access to what and that problem for the most part has
35:36
been solved. But then if you look at okay,
35:41
maybe the definition should go further who has access to what
35:45
and what are they doing with it or now?
35:49
And you've got, we know, one of the biggest problems and ideas.
35:52
We have all these over-provisioned accounts people
35:54
have access that they don't need that.
35:55
They don't use, how can you get the least privileged unless you
35:59
take that away who's solving for that, is the small companies
36:03
that are starting up to solve for that problem.
36:05
Now, they could be bought out and combined or you can see what
36:10
happened in my belief in like the access management space was
36:13
that, you got these companies that got so big and then smaller
36:17
companies like The pings and the doctors of the world said, hey,
36:22
we're going to go out and we're going to solve this specific
36:25
area that you guys aren't doing a good job at.
36:27
And next thing, you know, they're the dominant players and
36:30
the ones who were the dominant players, the timer no longer
36:32
exists. So another space along those
36:34
lines. We just saw.
36:35
So you guys know, we have talked about the past ID Pro, the
36:40
professional association for identity management.
36:43
Does a skills program, diversity survey, every year and every
36:47
year and Ian him alone. I assert, we are going to get it
36:51
done this year before I die diverse, like literally every
36:54
year. And this year was no different.
36:56
We do have it. Drafted, so that's good news.
36:58
It's coming soon, defined done. Yes, but we have the data and
37:02
one of the things that we see is, we asked interest in
37:07
different things, from an Enterprise perspective, your
37:09
organization, and then from your personal perspective, in one of
37:12
the things that blew our minds is that authorization is now
37:15
somewhat interesting. In fact, more than someone
37:17
interesting to Petitioners again and I'm just like what happened?
37:24
And we saw more of this in the survey of Like A Renewed
37:28
interest in authorization. Now, depending on your
37:32
perspective your like authorization has never really
37:36
come into the way that people had hope with fine-grained
37:39
access control or a back. Or he'll are back like your
37:42
exact mobile or blah, blah blah. And yet people are like, oh
37:48
crap. We I have this problem.
37:49
I think there is a moment. We might happen if we're talking
37:53
about the future. We're even more of access is not
37:58
provisioned at admin time. Like, you have a very thin
38:01
veneer of basis of Birthright or just-in-time ephemeral and
38:05
everything is just in time. Because what's different now, is
38:11
There are more control points. I would not say there's an
38:13
infinite number control, but there's more control points and
38:16
people are finally addressing the means by which you describe
38:19
policies and conditions and versus saying like hey, do you
38:24
like XML? Do you really like XML boy your
38:27
gloves a couple and I'm actually really optimistic and genuinely
38:34
curious because I used to cover fine-grained access control and
38:37
like this is super cool but it's a system that allows you to do
38:40
anything. And as we know, systems allow
38:42
you to do anything, make it really hard to do anything.
38:44
Yeah, I have a theory on why authorization has become
38:49
interesting again, or maybe top of mind for people, maybe
38:52
interesting stuff the right word, but I feel like this is a
38:56
can that's been kicked down the road for a very long time and
38:59
we've caught up with it because we were busy solving MFA.
39:03
Privileged access socks basic, I am stuff like modern, you know,
39:07
like life cycle, onboarding off-boarding and say, okay, well
39:10
now we've kind of figured that out.
39:11
Well, what's next or authorizations?
39:14
They've always been crap but let's start to fix it.
39:17
Well, and the thing that's making that even more urgent, is
39:19
the remember you're talking about access policies for
39:22
resources. Right?
39:24
It's not just you have read access has read access over
39:27
what? Right more Cloud more.
39:29
I as more complex SAS packages and the resources and the
39:34
Privileges, through which you affect those controls is only
39:37
growing to a point where people are, like I got no idea like how
39:40
do you get your arms around these things.
39:43
And so that's where like the cie M Market which is just the GRC a
39:50
Saudi World from Sauk, Sarah, it's just the same thing.
39:54
Again, it's just a take on this certain cloud provider that
39:58
certain Cloud providers vernacular and made usable but
40:01
like this is all driving me like, oh wow.
40:04
Yeah, we have way more resources than ever, to govern access
40:08
across and doing it in a less than Dynamic.
40:11
Fashion is a lost hope. Yeah, so, so back to what I was
40:15
saying about the complacency. I feel like I've never said this
40:19
to Henry K over a gardener, like, I don't think you should
40:22
have gotten rid of the mq because Don't think it's, you
40:25
know, don't like a winner. You ever ever respond to an M
40:29
cubed? What's that you ever Ever Write
40:31
a response to him? Don't know you ever had to read
40:32
the responses. Instant.
40:33
Yeah. Yeah, it's hell for everybody
40:36
involved but I'm not involved. Well, yeah, through the power of
40:40
Swing for the fences. Exactly what.
40:44
But I think the same thing is going on in the pan Market,
40:47
which is now, huh? You just mentioned?
40:49
See, I am like that's a so I feel like what But that Shake in
40:55
the pan market right now, all the pan vendors have got to rush
40:58
to go and, you know, have a password Vault and do keep do
41:05
Kim Palms. Are our friend, our mutual
41:08
friend would kill me if I say Kim again.
41:11
But I'm gonna, you know, butcher that a few more times.
41:14
What I was going at was, was actually, you know, I think
41:17
complacency Drive, Innovation will bring new companies in
41:20
which is I think we're using the company's coming on the edge.
41:23
The other thing I One to bring up, is I kind of feel like a lot
41:28
of vendors have now, said, our Innovation, plan is converged
41:31
identity, which means that our company is going to start
41:34
building all this other stuff. So you just have one throat to
41:37
choke one platform. We did this person for me.
41:39
That is not in the video. We've gone full circle, not
41:42
Innovation. It might be a good business
41:45
strategy. Yeah I'd be like returning to
41:47
the best of sweet. Best of breed in the identity.
41:50
Space feels like, Wow. It's it's 2002 and it's Oracle
41:56
and CA again. I was literally going to say
41:58
like NCA is colleague like, you know, and and You're absolutely
42:04
right. That is not Innovation from a
42:06
capabilities perspective, is innovation from a business
42:08
perspective if we're being generous.
42:10
Yeah, so can we talk about a i AI, welcome to AI at the center.
42:17
Are we just gonna reveal that it not of?
42:19
This is actually, this is humans all room and there's been, I've
42:22
been building our voice. I can make Jim say anything that
42:26
I want. At this point you have so much
42:28
audio 3. Will you that before?
42:30
Well, I mean, the nice thing is that you don't need a lot of
42:32
hacking like the Kayla doll that we saw earlier this week, like
42:35
he actually probably couldn't go to bed to say anything, but
42:37
anything you need about 15 minutes of audio to provide a
42:40
very usable digital equivalent. But that's what I'll talk about.
42:45
I want to talk about AI in the, I am space.
42:48
I am bullish on a. I said that before.
42:50
That's a hill. I'm currently dying on.
42:52
I don't think I'm dying. I think people are kind of
42:54
embracing it. I'm not, you're not a racist.
42:56
Yeah, I gotta be controlled from traffic is very good and I'm
43:01
feeling you Previous panelists said these don't represent our
43:04
views. I feel like there's a few
43:07
opportunities for AI from an innovation standpoint just on
43:09
the identity space alone from a product perspective.
43:14
I think about things like Wizards, I want to you're
43:18
looking at me like yes this is I mean like the pointy hat kind y,
43:21
something else. So when you go to install a
43:22
product, there is a wizard that guides you through the
43:24
installation process. You know that started with
43:26
please change the CD. Now by think you're talking
43:29
about a more advanced yes exact and I'm taking something that's
43:31
Far more advanced to say. Okay, I want to set up a
43:35
connection between this system and this system, I describe an
43:38
outcome and the large language model or whatever gender of ADI
43:43
that I'm using to develop that is product specific or at least
43:48
knows enough about the product to be able to generate the code,
43:51
the configurations or heck. Maybe even just do it without me
43:54
having to get into the guts of a control panel or an admin panel,
43:57
where that looks like, so, think about that as a use case of
44:01
Administrative helper, instead of me having to know sam'l or
44:08
Exchange open ID things right with each other, I can just
44:12
describe Yakima. Say here's how I want my
44:15
experience to be and it does the work flow, whatever it may be.
44:19
And think about things like that as sort of a next stage of where
44:24
I can see generative AI being used within a specific product.
44:28
So I think what you're describing is I believe there's
44:32
probably a there there, where low code Revolution was
44:38
essentially to quote my previous employer clicks knock code right
44:41
now where we're heading to is conversation not clicks, right?
44:45
And that's that is interesting because I actually think what it
44:49
does is it on one hand, demystifies the administrative
44:54
experiences for product on the other.
44:58
It also then gives you at least a reasonable starting point for
45:02
a variety of other places. Now, the question is, as we are
45:06
seeing the Earth, we are in still the early days of all of
45:09
this. The responses that we tend to
45:12
get promised. These systems are plausible
45:18
believable, but may not be even remotely close to correct,
45:22
right? Okay, so we're already seeing
45:24
implications of this. The recent court case that a
45:26
guide basically had the lawyer. Yeah.
45:29
The lawyer who I? Yeah, there's a lot to unpack
45:32
there but Okay, that has real significant outcomes because
45:36
you're just doing this in a court of law.
45:37
Now, imagine that your Access Control policy right now.
45:40
I'm not trying to be like, oh, the future is all scared.
45:42
I'm just saying, like, look, a plausible place to start is way
45:44
better than like, here's V. I start writing yours acma
45:48
policy. Obviously, that's an improvement
45:50
to start somewhere. The question is, how does that
45:54
get refined over time? And I don't think that's the
45:57
only place. Like, I think the, the sort of
45:59
administrative experience transformation.
46:02
That's a big one. What else you got for?
46:04
Where else do you think it's? And another one for kind of the
46:06
analytic space and maybe this is sort of like the role mining.
46:10
You know, that we've kind of been talking about in the past
46:13
and this is an area where I think this is a product
46:18
differentiator Can my AI which is called AI for now adequately
46:26
and accurately interpret what my people have access to and
46:31
whether it's appropriate. Is another area.
46:34
So it's kind of like again, the wizard kind of thing is you do
46:37
your user access review and you give it to some manager who has
46:41
no idea what their people have access to, whether it's
46:43
appropriate because it's got crappy names.
46:46
It came up with 20 years ago and we're still consuming those into
46:50
active directory right photo, right?
46:51
And that filters through all your systems Downstream.
46:53
And, you know, one of the biggest problems with rubber
46:57
stamping is well, I don't know what it is.
46:59
I'm just going to because I don't want to break anything
47:00
just going to leave it. Now, I've got a helper clippy,
47:04
got a better and clippy, but clippy on steroids that better
47:08
than clipping, right? That sits in the corner and it's
47:11
a right. I have questions about this.
47:13
I want to have a, you know, I don't know what this means.
47:17
Can you take this and synthesis synthesize the information down
47:20
to something that I can understand?
47:23
So, make a good decision also. That that future is a fantastic
47:27
feature, but it's built on a lie and that lie is Enterprise's
47:32
build entitlement catalogs, they haven't right?
47:35
And so in the lacking of that knowing what is this adgroup do
47:42
is dependent on at best. Either stale description data in
47:48
the details or a naming convention that someone thought
47:51
was a good idea ten years ago. Okay, I'm being a little bit.
47:54
No, but your nickname like exact problems, right?
47:56
So like if we don't have material for these models to
47:59
work on, then it basically be like It flips the light switch
48:03
on in the executive washroom. Cool.
48:05
No, it doesn't do that at all. It launches nuclear missiles
48:07
like you know the like weird we don't have that use case
48:11
specifically. I think it's still that you're
48:13
only as good as the data and we don't have the data still but I
48:16
have an answer for that. It's my third prediction.
48:19
Is that longer we did not rehearse this.
48:21
I know we did not. Yeah.
48:22
I'd send you home this and these are not well formed ideas.
48:24
These are just things that are occurring to me as I've been
48:26
having conversations, think about this.
48:29
The third one, is the idea that a large language Which model or
48:32
generative AI becomes a product onto its own.
48:36
That is specific to some area of identity.
48:41
And what I mean by that is my AI is better at doing AI things
48:47
than your AI is doing it better things and I see this Hub and
48:51
spoke model where we've got generalized.
48:54
A eyes open a.i. chechi PT Bing Lambda Google barred right?
49:00
All those things those Certain function of the experience.
49:05
Now, I need something that is specific to my organization and
49:10
my data that is a separate model because the concern is why I
49:14
don't want to put my data into a general model that everyone has
49:16
access to, right training, bubble, blah.
49:18
So now I'm running two models that are working in concert to
49:21
come up with this experience where I am taking advantage of
49:26
one model to have a voice, a text, a video interaction.
49:32
With something in a secure way with data that from my
49:36
environment says oh I did. Look at all your active
49:38
directory groups. I looked at all the nestings, I
49:40
looked at all the different points of data, combined it,
49:43
with general knowledge, around os's or platforms and blah,
49:47
blah, blah. And here's what I've come up
49:50
with and it's specific. And I see that AI for lack of a
49:55
better term being Secret Sauce to some degree for some folks.
50:00
So, I think the domain specificity, whether the I mean,
50:02
is your Enterprise or it is a business or what have you?
50:05
I think there's some validity to that.
50:06
And then, obviously, they'll be all the meta tools, rather,
50:08
like, how do you train these things?
50:09
We and Azure is start the roll this out.
50:11
I think there's an Azure specific instance, that
50:13
Microsoft has put out there. But the thing that occurs to me
50:16
is I am really concerned that as we saw with every wave of
50:21
Technology prior crypto, being the last big one that like all
50:26
of you see dollars just Goebel my fly over this place over
50:29
here. Right?
50:30
What's this new one? Okay, this is AI generative.
50:32
Pace. And we tend to lose sight of the
50:34
fact that we're already doing a lot of AI and machine learning
50:39
like all of like the just good old-fashioned.
50:41
Not even those things. Statistical analysis on, click
50:44
cluster analysis of where your entitlements are is like it was
50:51
revolutionary when oh my God, Ron ryman's company way back
50:56
before it got bought by CA roll Mining and to Cluster analysis.
51:01
Like, oh my God. Is amazing.
51:04
I think I like I mean it's like it's an Excel plugin now, right?
51:06
Like we're already doing all those things, I think the thing
51:13
that I'm a little bit worried about, it's not so much the
51:16
evils of it, I know not at all. What I'm worried about is a
51:20
rapid depressurization of other Capital markets to go focus on
51:24
this thing. And so, if all the brains are
51:26
going this way, like there's still good work that can be done
51:30
with the existing technologies that Don't really lean enough
51:33
into. We don't actually fully take
51:34
advantage of and this is maybe me in a very long way of saying,
51:38
get off my lawn, but it is an observation that we've seen is
51:41
prior in every technology Market.
51:44
Yeah. You see where the we're gonna
51:45
freak out phase. Yeah.
51:46
And then it's going to be like, oh cool.
51:48
Well, now, you know, prior conversation of like my
51:51
administrative experience is so much better.
51:53
Oh yeah, now I actually have something.
51:56
It Could Be Imagined your the domain model like you described
52:00
capturing institutional knowledge Judge because it could
52:03
look at the implementation of the code all the way up through
52:07
how entitlements are represented.
52:09
And now we're actually capturing is it has to be more accurate
52:11
than today. But, plausible understanding of
52:14
like, if I wiggle this, what moves over there in our identity
52:18
systems, because no one's getting through all that source
52:20
code, no one's going to go through all that COBOL, no one's
52:22
going to go through that, like really old j2ee up and I think
52:25
there's some, there's definitely a power there.
52:28
Not necessarily it's like the big old seeing Brands as well.
52:32
It's about time to deeper Vision.
52:33
Am it's going to be more about some of this institutional
52:36
knowledge capture hit its own model.
52:38
I think it's a really good observation.
52:40
Thank you for joining me in the get off my lawn later on will be
52:44
yelling at Clouds but adults, absolutely sensitive topic for
52:49
me because the way you said it was why I'm I didn't want to say
52:54
I'm bearish on AI because I'm not, but I do fear that it's
52:59
going to be the next zero. Trust worked like hey Krispy
53:04
Kreme Donuts. Now with more AI, you know, it
53:09
like apple and others are just through Ai and everything.
53:12
And what we're doing is not yeah any it's just the next evolution
53:16
of our product or there's some nice technology and we're going
53:19
to call it AI. So I really feel like defining
53:23
what a I means like that's fair, I think that's the that's the
53:27
problem. Album that I have with what you
53:30
just said, the product has a, i in it.
53:32
What does a? I even mean, because if you had
53:35
asked me five years ago, would AI means, it's probably I'm
53:37
thinking more machine learning, which is a subset of AI.
53:41
You asked me, today, or within the, even within the last year,
53:44
right? With the Advent of the language
53:46
models coming out, my definition of what a I means has changed,
53:50
but you think about generative. Now, the one thing about that
53:52
three years is going to be something else and fight.
53:54
You're right. So look, we're technologists,
53:57
the ones. Zeros are friggin fascinating.
53:59
Let's not kid ourselves but the the applications for other
54:07
outcomes other than just the application is the important
54:10
thing. And so I think I'm with you a
54:13
little bit of this of the like talk to me about what the
54:16
outcomes are that the use of thing is going to bring and if
54:22
it's like hey you know what mere mortals can now actually
54:25
describe Birthright provisioning process, Even set those things
54:29
up, you have my attention. If it is just what what we've
54:34
seen in the pastures like we have identity analytics.
54:36
What did that mean? We got a dashboard like calmly.
54:42
None of those words, right? It's just a dash but it's
54:44
pretty, it's got colors and it's at yeah the line stoplight and
54:48
yes what I think AI can do for us really is I feel like the
54:53
technology stack that we need to manage those humans keeps
54:57
growing Young and growing and more organization.
55:00
Everything becomes digitized and their identity management
55:03
problem becomes harder and we are growing the field.
55:07
We're getting a more smart people, but I can't keep up.
55:10
We've got to get to the point where AI does all the identity
55:14
work and we manage the AI to do the identity work this so that
55:19
exact point but coming back around to active clients.
55:22
Why does why did individuals have to understand?
55:26
How would authenticate in Works or how I set a static secret but
55:31
no no no. Something is going to broker
55:33
that experience for me. Now those things I think is
55:36
another application that potentially of at least
55:39
generative AI language models because the interaction model
55:42
can be something where you need to provide your passkey.
55:46
I don't know what that means. Oh what you need to do is
55:49
actually just press your thumb here, right?
55:50
The ability to come back and say tell me about this in another
55:52
way, pretend like I am ex tell me what this means.
55:56
That is really useful because Does the, you will have identity
55:59
Technologies to broker the transactions.
56:02
You will have an interaction layer that today primarily is
56:08
sitting through the phone and system browser and system
56:11
functionality, and there will be intermediate layers for
56:17
brokering. Those kinds of interactions.
56:20
And those do need to be smarter not because they're like, oh
56:23
I've been watching. You haven't got enough steps
56:25
today. It's more along the lines of I
56:28
can make this explainable using AI as generative right now.
56:32
I can make this more explain it. Well I can give you an
56:34
experience that helps. You understand what's going on
56:37
to demystify it and I will take care of the plumbing.
56:40
I got that, the more complex AI gets or the more can do, the
56:45
more complex you gets the fewer people who understand it at that
56:49
idiocracy, that goth level, right?
56:52
And that's the more important that it's going to be placed on
56:55
ethics and, and being able to To try to take us down that rabbit
56:59
hole do not come I just got it. I'm gonna find my comic relief
57:02
in years. Like wait a minute according to
57:03
that sort of math, then mainframes Rai because there's
57:08
like four people COBOL that the the shadowy there, the identity
57:13
now? Yeah, another probably the
57:16
Illuminati. Let's be honest, they read the
57:18
day of world because they run the mainframes, but the AI has
57:22
electrolytes. So that's why I think a big part
57:24
of the AI is like, you're going to have two.
57:27
Chakra. See you're looking at.
57:28
All right. Right.
57:29
Right. Right, right.
57:29
It's going to be hot. No, it has a, it has
57:31
electrolyte. Neither knew.
57:33
It seems to be predictable. And yeah, conservable, razor
57:37
begun. And then inaudible.
57:40
I think if those are comes don't happen as they should have
57:45
somebody said be able to figure out why.
57:47
Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's like any other
57:50
tool can be used for good, and for bad.
57:53
Let's hope that. We figure out ways to use it for
57:54
more good than bad. I and if you guys have seen the
57:57
show, mrs. Davis.
57:59
And I have it yet. I've seen the trailer so like I
58:01
finished. The premise is intriguing.
58:03
Yes I just can't happen yet another Subscription Service.
58:05
Yeah, I know I still have still free writing for my Comcast for
58:09
substance, whatever. From when I lived in Chicago
58:12
area, I don't live anywhere with they're still going to be
58:14
peacock for free. So congratulations to me.
58:16
I guess I deem positioning in action.
58:17
Exactly. Lee.
58:20
But the idea of mrs. Davis being this all seeing Ai
58:23
and it can basically taking over people's lives.
58:25
I don't want to ruin it because it's a really interesting sort
58:27
of thought process around it. It's really well done.
58:30
But I'm curious to hear what you think about it after you've seen
58:34
it, because I have finished the first season.
58:36
It can give you a Comcast password.
58:38
It's Comcast actually is deeper Vision at the end of June,
58:41
they're taking care of everybody off of that whole thing.
58:44
So, yeah, I don't even have one, it just, it logs me in through
58:47
my email and that's it. Wow.
58:49
Yeah. All right.
58:50
We should probably start to wrap up and get things going here for
58:53
us and you're always really great with your time.
58:55
And I really enjoy our conversations because I never
58:59
know where it's going to go. And I learned ever had either do
59:02
I what's been your favorite or your most favorite identify
59:09
verse 20 23 experience so far and just so it's not awkward.
59:13
I know it's beyond the podcast so it can't be this.
59:16
It has to be something else. We'll see.
59:18
A view. You don't have to say that.
59:19
Yeah, I'll tell you I think leaving aside the people and the
59:24
old friends in the new that I get to see two things come to
59:28
mind. One is walking around the show
59:30
floor. And being, as I said earlier,
59:32
I'm stumped as to like, where did all these companies come
59:35
from? Who are they?
59:36
What's going? Like that's amazing, maybe
59:39
because that means not only are we growing as practitioners.
59:43
We're growing as an industry. There's more choice, there's
59:45
more capabilities, more creativity.
59:47
Wow, it's powerful. Second one is having to
59:49
practitioners the beginning of every identifies.
59:52
The last couple years we've done some form of an identity 101 or
59:55
intro to Identity its perennially been some content
59:58
that started with 80 Pro and this year lands Peterman.
1:00:01
That's been talked about this walking by and seeing that room
1:00:06
out the door. Full.
1:00:07
Like I got a little teary because that means more people
1:00:11
are coming or people are who have even been here for, are
1:00:14
hungry to learn more about it. That's amazing.
1:00:17
That's a memory. I will that's the thing.
1:00:19
And when I go off a little bit on this one, having just changed
1:00:22
sort of my employment status and hearing about my old teams are
1:00:26
working on and hearing new priorities and what's not going
1:00:29
to be continuing. And what is this has been on my
1:00:32
mind? A lot about?
1:00:33
What do you think your great works are?
1:00:34
What are the great things that you did?
1:00:37
And if you're picking a feature or a product release know that
1:00:42
those are kind of ephemeral and I was talking to Andre about
1:00:45
this a little bit but seeing things like hey I contributed
1:00:49
this Corpus of amazing podcast that people can hear all these
1:00:52
cool people talk about or we built this content that's freely
1:00:55
available to people and they're going to learn a little bit more
1:00:58
from it. Like you got actually, got to
1:01:00
pay attention because those are the great works and it's nice,
1:01:04
especially this week for me to see that Jim Don't know how
1:01:07
there's no way to top that but no, well I'm not going to try
1:01:13
but the podcast I mean, the forest sessions that we've
1:01:17
recorded since the opening session, I always get a little
1:01:20
bit nervous like, hey, what if the sessions don't go there?
1:01:23
Great, we're at the end of the fourth, all four were home runs
1:01:26
and bangers. Every single one, if a podcast
1:01:28
could be a banger, every single one this week was fantastic.
1:01:31
Yes, I don't even know what a banger is but I have it's a
1:01:34
sausage. Yes, yes I do know what that
1:01:41
kind of bangers and yeah it's just that's it.
1:01:45
I mean that's why I love that we do this because We keep putting
1:01:51
out these episodes and we're not sure, you know, especially in
1:01:56
beginning, we weren't sure who's going to listen or download them
1:01:59
and now we meet so many people who listen to the show on the
1:02:03
regular we keep getting awesome guests like Ian and everyone we
1:02:07
had this week and man it's just it's I think it's like the
1:02:13
highlight of my career. Jeff.
1:02:14
I gotta say yeah it's pretty cool.
1:02:17
Yeah. The the this is the the last of
1:02:19
our Verse 20, 23 episodes. And, you know, for all the
1:02:23
people who came up and said, hey, I listen and blah, blah,
1:02:27
blah. That's really cool.
1:02:29
I mean, we started this four years ago, basically, and I
1:02:32
remember our first week, we had six listens four of them were
1:02:36
mine me testing on different devices and we've got now,
1:02:40
thousands of people around the world who tune in, I'm pretty
1:02:43
confident. We're the largest identity and
1:02:45
access management podcast in the world, the Galaxy, which is
1:02:48
called that And we don't do any advertising.
1:02:52
It is all word of mouth, it's just Jim.
1:02:54
And I doing this thing, and people like Ian and gal and
1:02:58
Andre, and who do have it for that, I'm missing him names, but
1:03:02
all the people are, he's mailers and vittorio's that have lent
1:03:07
their time and their expertise to come on and talk with these
1:03:12
two identity dorks for X number of years.
1:03:16
I mean, that's really cool. I mean, I don't know how else to
1:03:18
say it but for the people who took the time out this week to
1:03:21
just come up and say hello and introduce themselves, thank you
1:03:24
so much. I don't get them as many as Jim
1:03:26
does. Jim's with way more recognizable
1:03:28
and maybe I'm just I was so hard.
1:03:29
Yeah, I buried a bone or something but you know if you
1:03:32
took the time to do that it's not lost on us and we really do
1:03:34
appreciate we definitely appreciate what I did a versus
1:03:37
done for us to hooking us up with a spot outside.
1:03:40
After the opening keynote, the first night and doing that live
1:03:42
recording, which was a lot of fun.
1:03:44
There's always ways to make things better.
1:03:45
We'll do it. It's always a learning improving
1:03:47
pressure shuttle 2nd handle. I am going to ask him so you've
1:03:52
actually let me ask. Ian says, here you've done key
1:03:54
notes before I would be so nervous and you standing up
1:03:59
there on stage in front of like thousands of people.
1:04:03
What's that? Like the first one is brutal,
1:04:07
right? The first one is brittle because
1:04:10
it is going to be even if it's not the biggest room in the
1:04:15
universe. It's the first time where like,
1:04:17
like, oh that's your name under the keynote.
1:04:20
This guy better be good. Well, no, see that's the
1:04:24
fallacy. Hmm, audiences.
1:04:26
Verse Lee want the speaker to succeed even if they disagree,
1:04:30
they at least want to be entertained.
1:04:32
And so you do have the audience with you, but for the most part,
1:04:37
For me. Now, it's, I mean people would
1:04:41
be shocked probably, but I'm like, oh no, I have a guy, go
1:04:44
through a whole process, to get myself, mentally, ready to go,
1:04:46
do that thing. But to me, I'm just having a
1:04:50
conversation with the audience now, right?
1:04:52
So it's very comfortable because I can see some smiling faces and
1:04:54
I'm desperate to find those in the room.
1:04:56
Like, I want to find the not where my people at I will.
1:04:58
But also, like, I need to, I just need a name.
1:05:00
I need an anchor point because then I can fold them into the
1:05:03
talk, right? Like, oh, you know, it like,
1:05:05
okay. Here's Andrew Nash.
1:05:06
Like, Got a slide coming up on it.
1:05:08
I'm gonna give him a little trouble and but like, it makes
1:05:11
it a humanized because otherwise oh yeah, it's like scary as all.
1:05:15
Get out, right. Because she's like it's really
1:05:18
hard to see your where your group of fall all these other
1:05:21
things but it's the human connection at scale.
1:05:23
That is just super fun. So David Lee this morning first
1:05:29
key to who crushed it. Crushed it.
1:05:32
So genuine, so interesting about it, taking a contrarian view in
1:05:37
a room that can be a little hard.
1:05:41
Certainly some of them and the courage to go do that and just
1:05:44
confidently having, he was having a conversation with
1:05:48
people. It wasn't Bucky note, right?
1:05:50
And it's really fun. It is surprisingly easier than
1:05:56
you might think. But then again, public speaking
1:05:59
is, one of the things that like a vast majority of people like
1:06:02
eyelid. Rather eat my own head then you
1:06:03
know speaking for the public. And I could be five people.
1:06:05
It's yeah. I was gonna say, if you're doing
1:06:07
public speaking for 40 people or 4,000 people is that any
1:06:11
different shrimpy, you should just be having a conversation
1:06:14
with the people that are in front of you.
1:06:15
Now, we're talking to thousands people right now.
1:06:17
You are, we are around the world.
1:06:20
Now there's there's different kissing.
1:06:26
Guys, you have a lot to be proud of what you built.
1:06:29
All right? And it's really neat when I bump
1:06:35
into people are be like, hey, did you?
1:06:37
You know? I, I saw you talking to Andy
1:06:39
Hill. Did you hear him on the podcast?
1:06:41
Mike actually. I did and it was really good,
1:06:43
and he was very kind to give me a shout out.
1:06:44
And, and these other things. You had a lot to be proud of
1:06:48
guys, so I could work for you guys.
1:06:50
Thank you for thank you. I am proud of it.
1:06:51
I think we're I think we're doing a good job will keep doing
1:06:53
it as long as we keep having fun.
1:06:54
Yeah, enough self-congratulatory talk, let's go ahead and wrap
1:06:58
things up. Congratulations on your new to
1:07:03
divert Michael identity.com and we'll have a link in our show
1:07:07
notes for people to check it out there as well.
1:07:09
As well as your LinkedIn profile.
1:07:11
You can find us on the web, idac podcast.com Twitter at idac
1:07:15
podcast, Mastodon at idac, podcasts at infosec got
1:07:19
exchanged. Thank you very much.
1:07:22
The Cyber risk Alliance for all the support.
1:07:24
They provided us this entire week, definitely, above and
1:07:26
beyond what we were expecting and I think the quality of the
1:07:29
episodes that we had this week, our director Chewing on their
1:07:32
investment in making this happen as well.
1:07:34
So thank you to Andy, Wendy others that we worked with her
1:07:37
on the way so we'll go ahead and wrap it up.
1:07:39
That was identifiers 2023. We ended on a high note and
1:07:43
we'll talk with everyone on the next 12 and 24.
1:07:46
You've been listening to Identity at the center.
1:07:50
We hope you've enjoyed the show, make sure to like rate and
1:07:54
review and we'll be back soon, but in the meantime, hit the
1:07:57
website at identity at the center.com.
1:08:01
Calm and find us on Twitter at ivac podcast.
1:08:06
See you next time on identity at the center,